“Federal agents trying to stop the black Infiniti speeding between the White House and the U.S. Capitol fired seven shots at an unarmed driver with a toddler in the car as it rushed away from them, an uncommon tactic that occurred during a highly unusual chase,” washingtonpost.com reports. “A total of at least 17 shots were fired at two locations Thursday afternoon by two law enforcement agencies — the U.S. Capitol Police and the U.S. Secret Service. The final shots, near the Hart Senate Office Building, killed 34-year-old Miriam Carey of Connecticut, who police said had tried to ram through a security barrier at the White House, knocked over a uniformed Secret Service agent, hit cruisers and breached the outer security perimeter of the Capitol grounds.” Well, as Nick, Dan and I discussed at last night’s Google hangout . . .
The Secret Service should have taken out Ms. Carey at the White House (despite Nick’s reassurance on potential bomb blast effects on the White House). I reckon the moment someone mounts a potentially lethal attack on the President of the United States is the moment they forfeit their life.
Whether or not you agree with that assessment, the Internet’s abuzz with condemnation of the police procedure during the automotive attack. People (and not just Alex Jones followers) are asserting that the overwhelming armed response and Ms. Carey’s “assassination” indicate a nascent (or existing) police state. The WaPo article will do nothing to assuage those fears.
The vast majority of big-city police agencies — including in the District — prohibit or strictly limit their officers from shooting at moving vehicles. But it’s unclear whether the Capitol Police or Secret Service violated their policies during the chase or the shootings.
Brian Leary, a Secret Service spokesman, declined to provide a copy of his agency’s use-of-force or chase policies. Lt. Kimberly Schneider, a spokeswoman for the Capitol Police, did the same.
Leary and Schneider declined to comment on the incident at all, including whether their officers knew that Carey’s 1-year-old daughter was in the car when they fired into it, killing Carey. The toddler was unharmed and is in protective custody as authorities work with Carey’s family to properly place the girl.
The shooting is being investigated by the D.C. police department’s Internal Affairs Division. The Secret Service and Capitol Police will determine whether officers followed their departments’ use-of-force policies. The U.S. attorney’s office will decide whether the agents broke any laws, a D.C. police spokeswoman said.
Police Chief Cathy L. Lanier said investigators still do not know which agency’s officers fired at each location. Shots were fired at Garfield Circle, with the car moving, and again at the final spot, a guard shack on Maryland Avenue NE, with the car stopped.
Again, I’m wondering why they didn’t shoot Ms. Carey sooner. But I’m not wondering if the D.C. IA or the SS will reveal their findings to the people who pay (paid?) their salaries. No doubt the information will be sheltered from public scrutiny in the name of national security.
Meanwhile, the WaPo revealed their local po-po’s hit ratio: “D.C. officers shot 32 people in 1998, killing 12. They shot nine people last year, four of them fatally.” Maybe the question here is, again, police marksmanship.
Where are Jessie Jackson and Al Sharpton and their crews?
Yes, where is the media outrage? and the answer is: not a NRA member, unarmed black woman, not a redneck teabagger, move along nothing to see here.
Anyone who brings up postpartum depression will have all kinds of unholy terror thrown at them.
Postpartum psychosis was more likely the diagnosis. Her ‘boyfriend’ and baby-daddy had repeatedly called the local PD claiming variously that she was delusional or off her meds.
Those ending stats are goofy. -“shot 32 people in 1998, killing 12” + “shot nine people last year, four of them fatally.”
Bullet don’t always cause death. Bullets do weird things inside a body.
Are you saying they missed the people that didn’t die? Or that the shots were not fatal?
I know a guy who was shot 6 times by the cops. He’s mostly whole and very much alive today. No, we’re not friends.
Agreed. Those are goofy stats. If the police stopped the actions of all 32 people whose actions justified the use of lethal force against them without hurting innocents, they were 100% successful. The objective is to stop the actions which justified the use of lethal force.
They never said that those shot, were the intended targets.
Look at the NYC PoPo… they tend to hit practically everyone else OTHER than their intended target. (We all know why though: heavy trigger, lack of range time, etc.)
Those stats are as vague as they can be.
Yeah, that’s our WaPo (Motto: All the news that fits we print).
Considering the number of officers present and the circumstances, 17 shots are not bad. Hitting a driver in a moving vehicle is not an easy proposition.
I know a lot of people are looking for an excuse to bag on the police, but under the odd circumstances and the behavior of the suspects I’m not sure what other choice they may have had. Especially if they were not aware of the toddler’s presence.
They did not hit her when her vehicle was moving. The shots that hit were fired at the Maryland Avenue guard house, where her vehicle had come to a stop. Or so it’s been reported.
Combined with the fact that they could have just let DC traffic take its effect on her ability to get ANYWHERE above ground in daylight, they could have just sat back and enjoyed a donut while she tried to get more than a block away….
The video that I saw showed that police could have trapped her car easily with about five other vehicles, if cops on foot (shouting at the driver with their guns drawn) hadn’t been in the way. Police should really re-evaluate this “surround car with men on foot pointing guns” mentality. It opens them up to injury and creates an unnecessary life-or-death situation.
Um, a few decades ago while serving in the USAF as an SP (Police), it wasn’t all too uncommon for crazies to try to blow through the gates. If they made it through the gate, sure, the use of deadly force could be used in some installations depending on resources. But, usually, they didn’t make it through the gate. Sometimes, a chase outside the base like that in DC would ensue. Outside the gate unless that driver was intentionally attempting to hit someone with the car and had the opportunity to do so, deadly force was never authorized. I think the disconnect is that most people cannot comprehend how a car chase turned into an incident where deadly force was authorized when the driver was essentially fleeing. For conceal carrier, if a bad guy attacks us, then he runs way, then we chase the bad guy who turns to shoot back at us, we become the aggressor in the eye of the court. Shooting a fleeing felon used to be common probably a least a 1/2 century ago, but since then, in most jurisdictions, it is illegal for officers to shoot a fleeing felon no matter how much they deserve it. Is this a case where the officers illegally shot a fleeing felon. I guess we will see.
There is no damn controversy.
We and the media have all the time in the world to analyze these events. The Capital Police and USSS had .2 seconds. Given the fact that someone just shot up the Navy Yard and that black luxury cars are great vehicles for transporting explosives or something worse, those LEOs did the right thing by punching her ticket.
Had they found a dead Arab guy behind the wheel and 500lbs of Semtex wired to a detonator, there’d be medals and commendations aplenty. Instead , the media uses those cops as punching bags for doing their jobs. Normal people do not accidentally drive through security gates or sideswipe US Secret Service agents.
Those officers deserve better.
Not to bright are you?
I’m brighter then anyone who thinks its OK to crash a security perimeter without consequence.
Which is much of the point I would have had no problem them ventilating her and her car + child at the security gate. But the whole cartoonish chase then shooting her once they look like clowns is a bit more worriesome. Not because of the shooting but because it could be construed that they actually shot her because she made them look bad which scares me a lot more!!
I agree that it is really easy to armchair QB this sort of thing with the luxury of video and lots of time after the fact. Not so easy when you are on the scene.
That fact that she was driving crazy and was a dark-skinned woman gave them more of a reason to eliminate that threat. And eliminate it before it could detonate a bomb. Woman suicide bombers are not unheard of in the middle east, and I could see a female bomber being used at our white house.
I don’t agree with the militarization of our police – and these cops aren’t “heros” they just did what they were trained to do to protect the White House.
Had she ran the barricade at Walmart she would still be here to tell us why – but she chose the White House.
The thing is, she burned off the barricade. I don’t think you could breach the WH’s passive outer perimeter without an MBT. An Infiniti sedan doesn’t cut it.
John Hinckley Jr. had actually shot four men, including the President of the United States, but they didn’t “punch his ticket.” If the vehicle had actually contained an Arab with 500 lbs of Cemtex, they’d have all been blown to hell at the WH gate while they stood there yelling by the side of the car.
I’m not unsympathetic to LEO’s. Yet, if they believe stopping the vehicle is so important, they should ditch the light and fun AR’s and carry, some of them, a gun and cartridges designed to break an engine. No, not .50 BMG, just some tungsten-carbide core slugs or .45-70. Really.
ST: So what you are saying is “Shoot first and ask questions later” and of course if a shooting is questionable then hurry up and find a way to justify it.
The poor put upon police that put their life on the line daily need a break from us, the critics? I am sorry, no. They chose the job. Period. Now, I find it not to be odd that they are on the scene firing away because it is The White House etc and important people here. Where, in the case of everywhere else, police are not on the scene at all. Nobody asks either. Better start asking since they say they will protect us after a total ban. Deputy on the scene at Columbine, first responder, waits for a supervisor. That is not “putting their life on the lie” that is saving their own scared butt.
They are all standing with guns drawn before she backed up from the barricade. It never occurred to any of them that the vehicle couldn’t go very fast with 4 blown out tires? I saw the video of her driving to get away. She negotiated the turns pretty well at that speed and even stayed in her own lane. Also, check out the extreme police chases on television. Stolen cars blazing through neighborhoods, going 90 m.p.h. the wrong way down interstates with the police desperately trying to reel them in. Why bother? Why don’t the police shoot at these criminals when they get the chance, the same way they shot this womnan?
Very good observation!
It sure looked to me like they had her pretty well boxed in there when they started shooting. For my part, I still don’t think it was necessary to kill the poor gal, but I wasn’t there, so I’m not going to try to defend that opinion.
The one thing I will say: between the fact that my CCW is not honored there and this example of the actions of the palace guard, no way in HELL am I ever going to D.C. unless absolutely compelled to for some unimaginable reason. I have no sense of direction, and could easily see myself getting turned around and trying to back out of some unanticipated dead end. It’s happened before on road trips. At least most places one doesn’t need to worry about being shot when their GPS has a brain-fart.
You know, the same logic could be applied against personal self defense.
“You shouldn’t have shot the guy beating your head into the pavement. He was armed with a pack of Skittles!”
Common sense says you don’t challenge a security checkpoint unless youre ready to deal with the deadly consequences.
Common sense?? Common sense says you don’t strap your infant daughter into a car seat, drive 250 miles to the White House and try to see the president.
The woman didn’t have a clue what she was doing, she was apparently suffering from severe mental issues, probably not even aware of her surroundings. And you’re bringing up common sense??
If you put a convicted murderer on death row and he/she had mental issues, every liberal would be out there protesting. If they had arrested her, she probably wouldn’t even have been put on trial. Yet a death sentence was carried out here, to a 34 year old woman with a kid in the car, when the immediate threat may have already passed.
And so we lose another tried and true Obama voter
Perhaps she should have stopped when she was surrounded with cops the first time. Escaping while trying to run over them seem to indicate a negative attitude toward the officers.
You know, I never thought of this before. What are the rules of engagement for the secret service? They are protecting the man with his finger on THE button. I would not expect them to have the same rules as the traffic cop in Podunk. Are there missile batteries on the roof of the white house or nearby?
The capitol police sound a lot like the California State Police. They’re sworn officers but they only normally operate on government building grounds. More like security gaurds than cops, even tho they’re sworn.
The CHP and the CA State Police merged in 1995. State asserts, state buildings, and state property are patrolled by the CHP. I’m not sure about CA parks, though.
I stand corrected. Been a while since i encountered any.
And yet… the SS has a higher priority to protect money than it does our elected leader who is supposed to work for us.
Good. Devaluing or imperiling the currency hurts all of us.
USSS won’t release their ROE, and rightly so. But judging by how they protected Reagan (and Brady), I strongly suspect one part of it is “Do not fire if a crowd is present unless absolutely necessary.”
I also don’t know what their ROE are. But they are good. I think they qual monthly – and get a fair bit of trigger time between. What I’ve observed is that, generally speaking, more competent people are also more confident and therefore less quick to shoot everything in sight at the first sign of trouble. Knowing “I can plug that guy within a second of choosing to” you don’t have to be so uptight all the time.
Most (many?) cops don’t shoot near enough, have no real confidence in their shooting ability (in public they do, but not in private), have very poor knowledge of terminal ballistics and therefore are aware that they have very little control over the situation. Combine this with a “warrior” ethos (which they don’t deserve) and dodgy ROE and you have a disaster waiting to happen.
I don’t have enough detail as of yet to decide but I’ve heard (God know where cause I can’t recall) that she was shot and killed after she exited the car. If that is the case then she was at that time unarmed and her killing was not lawful.
What about the bomb she (could have) had in her car? What about the fact that she was a fleeing felon who had used a deadly weapon (a car) to assault multiple people? What do you know about lawful?
To be a “fleeing felon” you have to be convicted of a felony. I believe the word you are looking for is fugitive, a fleeing fugitive. If she was out of the car when she was shot she no longer was armed with a deadly weapon, or do you propose that police should shot people after they drop their weapons as well? Also you believe that it’s ok for the police to kill someone for a crime they might commit? If they shot your mother because she might have a bomb would you be cool with that?
I never said I was an expert on the law, even if I did spend that first half of my adult life working in law enforcement, I just know more about it than you do.
Wrong. The fleeing felon rule applies to someone suspected of committing a felony. No conviction is necessary.
However, in Tennessee v Garner the court established that using deadly force on a fleeing felon requires the belief that the escape of the suspect will be a threat to life. This can be determined based on the crime itself as well as the suspect’s actions during or prior to the deadly force being used.
Gloom,
The very act of fleeing, when done in a sufficiently reckless manner, constitutes a felony in most jurisdictions. Those crazy pursuits in CA when the driver blows multiple red lights at 60 mph are all examples of felony evading. They are also very likely to end in a crash or multiple crashes.
But once she exited the car she was no longer in control of her deadly weapon, and was just an overweight woman.
I also heard it was two large NRA card carrying southern rednecks using school child seeking assault bullets out of fully automatic AR-15 assault weapon shotguns at a church choir on the capital. Information is better now, but not by much.
Stop Channeling Piers Morgan’s Ghost
And +1
Weird.
Why no wrong-way spikes at the barrier? End of chase.
Stoopid.
Agree. Too much military thinking, not enough cop thinking. Two summers ago I got stopped very effectively by two cops in Southern Spain on an Autopista on-ramp by Mijas: One rolled out spike belts like he was bowling. The other was pointing a G36 rifle at my face from, eventually, two yards. It was part of a manhunt for a murderer, and succeeded eventually. I admired the Guardia Civil’s professionalism.
I can’t believe that no guard at the entrances to the WH has a shotgun or rifle with rounds capable of busting a car or pickup truck’s engine. (If they don’t know what to buy the ATF can hand them a list.) These guys deal with 100 mental cases for every terrorist type. And LEOs on foot shouldn’t surround a car, as it makes crossfire injuries likely. The video shows that was exactly their problem at the WH.
the only part missing from your story is how much cash Guardia wanted before they would let you go.
I was in Fuengirola right about the same time, summer of 2011… don’t recall hearing about a manhunt, but I didn’t pay too much attention to the news.
I’m there for the month of August each year, off and on (depending on work commitments) for 33 years. The GC has cleaned up their act tremendously over that period, I think. The on ramp leaving my usual tennis place, Lew Hoad, is vaguely straight up in the hills from Fuengirola. I come and go from Benalmádena Costa, and thus love the still relatively new highway. The ‘manhunt’ only lasted a few hours, and involved two-man checkpoints at all the on and off ramps on the ‘high road.’ The crime occurred in the northern part of Fuengirola. Now my town hall, Ayuntamiento, is a different story when it comes to encouraging quid pro quo’s. That was the first and only time I had an automatic rifle in my face close up. I was obviously not their suspect and they waived me on immediately after hearing my accent (and noticing my tennis whites, perhaps.)
“Brian Leary, a Secret Service spokesman, declined to provide a copy of his agency’s use-of-force or chase policies. Lt. Kimberly Schneider, a spokeswoman for the Capitol Police, did the same. …
The shooting is being investigated by the D.C. police department’s Internal Affairs Division. The Secret Service and Capitol Police will determine whether officers followed their departments’ use-of-force policies.”
And of course, the “investigation” will determine that all personnel involved followed the agencies’ [unreleased] use of force policies – which are secret, so there cannot be any public review of the incident.
And the Democrat Propaganda Ministry (aka, “news media”) will simply no longer cover the “incident”. The problem for the media is that this “incident” does not fit the “evil right-wing gun-clinging religious nutcase evil white male evil NRA member” narrative.
Another, much bigger problem for the Democratic Ministry of Truth is that of “ANOTHER identified and diagnosed mentally ill perp off their meds” was killed.
coincidentally, non-white, too. Very inconvenient to the narrative.
But wheres Jesse, and Al? Hmmm.
The cops were actually aiming for the baby because she made a furtive movement.
It’s the movements that have always been the tedious bit with babies.
Nah, it’s the diaper bombs you have to be leery of.
You have got a true WMD right there.
Had to come back to this comment: R, you mad a Kinky Friedman joke. I missed the subtlety.
In a sane world, I would ask that people not speculate and wait for the investigation to be completed, where we would be able to see what happened and when and be able to judge if the decisions made were appropriate for the events and the time available.
However, we no longer live in a sane world. Investigations don’t happen. We can’t trust investigators to be honest. We won’t see all the facts presented by an objective authority.
My question is why did they chase her? I don’t know the answer, but to me the situation hinges on what made her start to run? Once she started, apparently, attempting to get through security barriers, I suppose lethal force might be justified, but why was she trying to break through the barriers?
I no longer assume that the police do the right thing. It’s a shame we’ve gotten to that state.
I no longer assume that the police do the right thing. It’s a shame we’ve gotten to that state.
I got to that state in 1968.
They chased her because she tried to crash the White House. She doesn’t get a free pass just because she failed. You can speculate all you want about the end game but the Capital Police and the Secret Service were doing their jobs when they went after her. Most police actions of this type legitimate even if the cops involved are your stereotypical asshats.
Did she? I heard that this was misreported and was untrue.
Clear excessive force, IMO. They knew:
– She was unarmed
– She had a young child in a car seat in the back (in the line of fire)
– She couldn’t go anywhere else
I’m going to consider driving a 3700 pound sport coupe with a 330 HP engine in a reckless manner to be armed. An Infiniti driven by a nutjob has more stopping power than a hundred .338 Lapua rounds.
Agreed, but once she exited the vehicle. . . .
If they shot her, unarmed, when she exited the vehicle than it sure looks like a dirty shoot.
I have a question for Accura81 or any other LEO with real experience with the DC police.
Were these the DC Police that stopped her? In the Alhurra video, it looked as is she was being pursued by several police cars including the SUV that almost boxed her in. (that seemed like forced error, in hindsight).
Dont the SS also have uniformed officers, inside the gates and fence on the WH grounds?
Is it possible this was a mix of DC cops and SS?
Why did they surround the car, and put themselves in the position of being in a cross-fire, if the assumption would be that the car is dangerous enough to stop with gunfire?
Why didnt they shoot out the tires right away, or soon as she started to move?
Why did they shoot at the car when it was going away, at what seemed like 10+ yards and opening? Wouldn’t there be MORE of a risk of friendly fire, or collateral damage?
At what point in a typical metro PD do you go from shoot to kill, to hold fire, when the suspect is going away fast?
Does anyone know of any video or photos of the actual second stop? I have heard second hand claims of her being shot when she got out, running away, etc- but no eyewitness or credible law enforcement reports of that- am I missing something?
Did she have something in her hands, or make any moves or motions could have been misinterpreted as deadly force, for example if she was close enough to an officer or pedestrian?
Absent the answers above, I dont think I am qualifed to judge the situation, compared to the people on the ground. It looked like they were trying to communicate with her, maybe even reason with her, and held fire even as she was threatening officers by backing and driving forward after the first stop.
But then one shot, perhaps triggering others, after she was well away… that dont make sense given the restraint just before that- but the video didnt have enough detail on that either, and we dont know enough other details to judge the interplay, comms between officers, whats happening on the street, etc.
Way too many unknowns.
They were doing their jobs when they were after her. It seems that they would have been interested in taking her alive to find out if it was a plot or conspiracy. Given the outcome, for all we know, Barry was the babby-daddy and they had to shut her up. How long before the baby disappears out of the hospital?
And here I was thinking that Barry was gay. I guess this was another false flag operation. Calling Mr. Jones, Calling Mr. Alex Jones.
I guess technically, he would have to bat for both teams anyway unless Michele has another babby daddy.
I’m confused. I thought he was a catcher.
Reggie Love is the pitcher.
Where did I read this observation? NY Times reported “officers with semiautomatic rifles” not the evil assault weapons terminology used to promote gun control.
They’re only evil when they’re in the hands of law abiding citizens. In the hands of cops, they’re goodness personified.
I was really disheartened to see the kind of stupid false-flag stuff on a firearms forum I read. Then, when they realized that didn’t work because she didn’t have guns/etc they went right to police brutality. You can’t win with some people, either it’s the government setting up an event if it goes one way, or it’s the government overreacting and murdering if it goes another.
Just as bad was the media, which doesn’t know the difference between the “necessity” to use deadly force vs. the “objective reasonableness” of doing so… the former is impossible to determine at the time and so is an impossible standard when faced with split-second decisions. They also make the mistake of talking about how police aren’t ‘allowed” to fire on moving vehicles. First, each agency has different policies for different reasons. Second, most allow their officers to fire on a vehicle in extremis. In mine we are not allowed to do so unless there is no other reasonable option left… but then, if I’m thinking about shooting a moving car, I’m probably out of reasonable outcomes even without the policy. Another article quotes some professor “expert” saying that while DC is a target of terrorist attacks, that can’t change how police respond to threats. Bullshit.
It’s clear this woman went out of her way to present herself as a threat to police, citizens, and national security. I don’t care WHY she did it when it comes to the use of deadly force, only what it looked like to the people who are tasked with guarding these sites. What if this woman had killed dozens of people with a bomb blast or just by running them over? The finger-waggers would be all abuzz how there was now way the USSS could have let that happen and it must be false-flag…
“What if this woman had killed dozens of people with a bomb blast or just by running them over?”
The point is, SHE DIDN’T. She had many chances to and she didn’t. And the back of the car (with the identified child) was between her and the shooters. If she was running away and CPD let her run, MPD would have grabbed her in a heartbeat because by that time LE in two states and DC had a complete, detailed BOLO and location on her.
Also, they could have Tazed her on several occasions and didn’t. Why not?
Add your own ‘commentors’ to that list of people theorizing about the notoriously “militarized” “warrior” “killing machine” cops protecting the seat of American government. You baited this Farago and you know it.
How are things in the Fusion Center since the shutdown? Quiet now?
What are you talking about?
The Farrago Fusion Center GooglePLEX FRIDAY NIGHT Session.
Thats a private op. Its not govt funded.
You are not cleared for higher, and have
No Need to Know.
That is all.
They shot at a fleeing suspect.
The Supreme Court has made it clear decades ago that you can’t shoot at someone simply because they are fleeing. They have to present a threat.
The driver was nuts, committed a whole carload of Federal felonies and got killed for her trouble. The police looked like Keystone Kops, but with real weapons. Pursuing her car around the traffic circle? I thought I was watching Wile E. Coyote chase the Roadrunner. Dumb.
It’s sad and stupid all the way around. No winners here, that’s for sure.
Someone asked the ultimate question yesterday: what if it had been a bunch of trained and dedicated terrorists instead of one delusional little female dental assistant and a baby?
It’s definitely a murky situation. The LE in DC should have had and deployed spike strips. You’d think they’d have that gear considering they have a host of other high tech toys. My apologies in advance if they tried to use a spike strip and failed. I don’t claim to know all the ins and outs of this one.
Yup. We just don’t know the facts, and even though the MSM is quick to jump on most other shootings and hyperventilate and hypothesize before the facts come out, thats no reason we need to do it for them, here.
Although, I do have to say the silence is deafening…
Maybe they got the memo…
I think the writer has a point….if you are trying to “crash” the barriers of the WH…or attempting to assassinate anyone…you should forfeit your life at the moment of discovery…or the attempt on the President’s life….
…however…no one has really defined the word “crashed” or “rammed” as they keep claiming this woman did with her car….on the other hand, when I saw a picture of her car online, the front end did not appear damaged or “crashed”…not a scratch on it…..so I think the idea that she may have “rammed” the barrier is a bit of a stretch…as well as the always popular “shots fired” ( which turned out to be another lie)…I think the fact that it just happened to coincide with another federal DHS Drill…how effing” convenient….and to further demolish the writer’s POV..once the woman drove away from the WH and they had her “boxed” in…what was the need to shoot and kill her? The had her under control..and if she had come out of the car with a weapon…they were fully prepared to bring her down….?
For all we know..the woman made an incorrect turn …panicked with all the guns in her face..and ran…. only to be made dead by overzealous, trigger-happy fascists…and then to have the Congress give them a Standing Ovation…..I want to vomit….
Regards,
RJ O’Guillory
Author-
Webster Groves – The Life of an Insane Family
I think you have described what I think is the truth. I won’t accept so blindly that this woman posed a threat until they show the evidence that she did. She had her kid in the car, and whereas I’ve seen reports of mentally ill women do horrendous things to their children (toss them in traffic because they think demons possess them, for instance) I won’t conclude that she was homicidal or suicidal without proof. My experience sadly leads me to believe the police over reacted and generated a situation where they felt like shooting was appropriate.
The official story is she had issues: Obama was (in her mindset) spying on her (personally, I guess) and was going to post it all to the Internet. She also freaked out patients in the office she worked at, apparently to the point they complained if something wasn’t done about her, they wouldn’t be back.
Speculation: Perhaps she wanted to confront Obama, tapped the gate/barrier with her bumper (to open the gate) and triggered the cops into a frenzy. Perhaps she then panicked and tried to run away in her car. We’ll never know with any certainty (especially her side of the story) because she has been ventilated beyond life.
…one of the more humorous…(and yet, not so humorous) aspects of this ordeal is the use of the word “paranoid” to describe the woman..? Why is that so? We have proven that Obama and the NSA is listening in on her…and all of us…so is that truly paranoid?
Regards,
RJ O’Guillory
Author-
Webster Groves – The Life of an Insane Family
“I think the writer has a point….if you are trying to “crash” the barriers of the WH…or attempting to assassinate anyone…you should forfeit your life at the moment of discovery…or the attempt on the President’s life….”
This theme really troubles me. I thought that every US citizen was entitled to a trial and must be found guilty before they can be killed. Even by a Hellfire missile. AMIRITE?
Jus Bill, are you purposely being obtuse? Going by your logic no one has the right to respond to any threats with deadly force?
It’s one thing to drag someone behind a building and execute them after apprehending them vs responding to a dynamic event where someone in a 3000 lb missile has run through a barricade at our nation’s capitol and injures an agent in the process.
Watch the video, then comment.
I have watched the video….no shots fired…no clear understanding of what she is doing…no clear understanding of the reactions of the LEO and why they were not more professional….how they let “her” go the first time…but no matter how you look at it…at the time they shot her…she was unarmed and was only susceptible to traffic violations at that point…unless someone can claim making a wrong turn, or being affected by mind-altering medications is a felony… requiring a death sentence…I don’t see the need to refer to any of the video except where they decide to shoot “her”.
btw…there is also video online that purports to show two adult passengers in the car..a professional driver …and a navigator…and when you see the video …it does look like two folks in the car….the real sad thing is that no one can trust our government …on any level…..either to be truthful…. to act in a professional manner…or to abide by the law and Constitution….but if you eliminate all of it..and ask…at the moment they decided to shoot her…did they need to?
Regards,
RJ O’Guillory
Author-
Webster Groves – the Life of an Insane Family
BTW-I don’t see your response in any way related to my point about paranoia and how the NSA is watching / listening in on us? You seem to want to move the conversation away from that point…are you an NSA Troll?
Yet none of their paranoid snooping in violation of the 4th and 5th Amendments have stopped Ft. Hood, Boston Marathon, Navy Yard shooting, or this. Frankly, if she was a thread given she wasn’t armed and driving an average vehicle, I find it laughable that she could actually drive into the W.H. grounds. If she could, then the S.S. needs to be re-evaluated to find out what caused its pussification.
I wish I could say this tragedy would inspire new research into mental illness but it won’t.
The officers responded to the situation as they’d probably been trained. It’s easy for us to armchair quarterback, my perception is they were trying to assess the threat. The only silver lining here is that they now have one more scenario to train for…
Tough call for the liberal media; Slam the trigger happy police for killing an unarmed black woman with a child in the car or celebrate the heroism of the brave men and women who protected their boss? What to do?
Brave was the S.S. agent that took a bullet for Reagan. This wasn’t so much given that they were no more in danger than crossing a street as a pedestrian in Salt Lake City. Anyone that has been to Salt Lake City will know what I mean.
I think it should be mandatory for ALL police officers to have microstamping…this will make it easier to determine which officer fired shots and the number of shots fired and would speed resolution of these types of investigatons…after all, they already have ID confetti for their tasers…why not for their firearms? What’s good for the goose….yada, yada, yada…
Rammed a barricade, then rammed a police car (not had an accident with one), then stuck another police officer, injuring him and at the time of the shooting had just rammed another barricade, the last one before gaining access to the building itself, and was in the process of backing up to ram again.
Clean shoot.
I don’t care if she was Mother Theresa. You do what she did, you get shot, End of story.
She hit a barrier (probably accidentally) and then fled when about a dozen men pointed guns at her and her daughter. She then got cornered at the second barrier, got out of the car to surrender, and was executed.
Not a clean shoot. Not even close. There is very little difference between this situation and the one with the guy running over a few bikers while fleeing because they started to attack his vehicle with his family in it.
Wrong, she rammed the first barrier , rammed a police car, prob accidentally/recklessly hit the foot officer, the n rammed the second and final barrier and was INSIDE the car when she was lit up. She never left the car alive. Your agenda is showing…
Really? Watch this piece of video, particularly the part BEFORE she hits the barrier. According to this video, she had THREE cops on her tail, sirens and lights going, when she tried to do a U-turn but was FORCED INTO THE BARRICADE by a police SUV. Ram the barricade? NOT!!!. This part of the story has NOT appeared anywhere in the press or the police reports–who was trying to stop her and why? Her escape maneuvers, in my opinion, demonstrate sheer panic. In short, hitting the barricade was the result of some prior UNREPORTED incident and had nothing to do with politics or Obama.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=d4b_1380838413
Further, after she makes her escape from being trapped at the barricade and surrounded by officers with guns drawn, gunfire (seven shots I think) erupt when she is 20-25 feet away and leaving the scene; as I understand it, this is a violation of standard police procedure (but I am not a cop, so what do I know).
Ahh, so she was forced into the first barricade, forced into the police car, forced into the foot officer, forced into the second barricade…yea, sounds logical. Read Salon or Mother Jones much? You know, the publications where reason and logic go to die.
She put her and her baby in life threatening danger and the officers as well. When you have a one ton piece of steal running on a rampage ramming barricades (plural) , Ramming Officers (plural)…the only way to stop it is by multiple larger vehicles boxing it in or by taking out the driver.
Please go back to your 911 Inside Job YouTube videos….they miss you.
Rydak, have you ever seen the WH physical security measures? You don’t just drive up the driveway, you pass through a carefully designed gauntlet to get to the entry barrier.
Yes, I have been there several times, felt like I was in a prison camp. You know what else I felt like? I felt like if I rammed my car past the blockade, then into a police car(totaling it) and then into a foot officer, and then into another barricade, all while ignoring the shouted orders of clearly visible police officers pointing their guns at me…I felt like I was going to be killed. Thats what I felt like last time I was there, about 3 weeks ago.
So you just confirmed my point: You don’t just “drive up to the White House,” even if you’re delusional.
And FYI the “totaled” unit was the one that was mangled when the genius driver tried to go over a “trap” barrier that was being raised while he was chasing the woman. If she was able to total a Crown Vic and continue on for 10+ blocks at high speed, I WANT her car.
Well. Rydak, it seems clear that you did not watch the video at the provided link, otherwise you wouldn’t have made such ridiculous comments. Watch the video. All I did was describe what I saw–any you too can see–in the video. This piece of film was captured by a news crew doing a story on some sort of protest going on at the time. Snide comments will not change that authenticity of what is shown. And what is shown raises serious questions. Go ahead, watch it. I double dare you. Or keep your head buried in your “sand”, for all that it matter to me.
It was a shot, but 17 rounds wasn’t “clean.” What would these ass-clowns do if they went up against a professional or some serious gihad types?
Running from cops is never a good idea, you never know if the one chasing you is the itchy trigger finger type or not.
That can even happen if you simply pull over. Go research Officer Dan Harless on youtube.
You folks are wrong.
This episode demonstrates the inability of government people to think. The cops are terrified out of their minds. Pumped up on terrorist senarios while forgetting 30% of the population is on a skull bucket prescription. Someone needs to remind capital law dogs it’s ok to use racial profiling when a black woman wants to talk to the President. Tell her wait here, I”ll get him. Record the license and work the radio & phone. Should she bolt, they have the data. Note she did not breach the “outer perimeter” so why draw weapons and scarce the crap out a a delusional mom not chewing her meds? The doctrine of drawing bang sticks assuming overwhelming force will “control the situation” is flawed and ample evidence of police inability to think through an event.
What is more disturbing is most people acceptance that the law enforcement actions were justified. I ask in relation to what? From the video evidence, I saw no reason to kill a person.
One does not just simply ram a White House Security Gate.
Based on what the officers knew at the time,they had every logical reason to kill this woman.
As to the childs presence, I need not recount some of the more gut churning after action reports from Iraq of children being used as weapons of war against our troops.
But what if she didn’t ram the gate at all? http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=d4b_1380838413
Sorry, last time I checked this happened in DC, not Iraq.
And those barriers are certified to be able to stop a loaded 5-ton truck. Her car wouldn’t do more than mess up the paint.
One of the police on the news said handgun ammo would just bounce off of steel belted tires. Does anyone know if that is true?
Baloney.
Even the lowly .22lr will fully penetrate car tires, anything in a defensive caliber will go all the way through both sides unless the wheel is struck.
That cop is an idiot with a very poor grasp of physics, then. Given the fact that a roofing nail will puncture a tire at very low speed, I doubt .40 S&W will have any trouble getting through…
Too bad all the media personalities are freaking ignorant and uneducated about such things. That will allow them to believe in equine excrement pedaled by that LEO who is either bs’ing, lying or ignorant.
In wish tires where bullets proof then they would strong enough to last longer and I wouldn’t have to drop $1200 every 60,000 miles on tires for my truck
“The Secret Service should have taken out Ms. Carey at the White House (despite Nick’s reassurance on potential bomb blast effects on the White House). I reckon the moment someone mounts a potentially lethal attack on the President of the United States is the moment they forfeit their life.”
This is a stupid couple of paragraphs. There was no threat to Obama, no reason for this shooting to have taken place. It was disgusting and only exceeded by the ignorant comments by Congressman Steny Hoyer and the standing ovation Congress gave those “brave” Capital HIll police. Give me a break.
No doubt they will be exonerated as theyusually are. It seems the government idea of using us for target practice is well and applauded. I think perhaps it is time for us to shoot back.
Actually, I do feel bad for the CPD shooters. They were there and lived through it. Right or wrong, they’ll have to live with the trauma of knowing that they killed a human being, not a piece of cardboard.
You’re assuming that they give a sh1t. I don’t.
I actually believe that the shooting was justified. Which suggests that even trigger happy thugs in uniform can have a good day.
This chase started in front of my office. There are obvious barricades in place and they are manned. I was walking past on Thursday and remarked to my co worker that some coils make it pretty far in there before being actually stopped. Apparently it was true.
I don’t think killing her was justified once they had the car boxed. Even if the car was wired a dead man switch would have set it off. They were around the car and saw the kid inside, creating a greater need for caution.
If this sounds like monad morning QB, just remember how you would get grilled in a DGU.
Don’t forget that in a SYG or castle doctrine situation, once the perp has fled, you can’t go pursue them and shoot them because the “threat” no longer existed. Of course the threat transitioned from W.H. police to Capitol Police.
Some more background on Carey. I believe the unit in the photo was the one damaged by the barrier (judging by the marks on it).
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/10/05/in-months-before-wild-capitol-scene-miriam-carey-battled-psychosis.html
Noteworthy quote:
“The Secret Service officers and Capitol Police in Washington had no way of judging what sort of threat she might constitute even as the 12-block chase ended with her crashing her car and attempting to flee on foot. The cops fired again and she was killed.”
The cops fired again and she was killed.
Don’t you just love the passive construction. What the author meant to write was “The cops fired again and killed her.”
This website has turned into a complete joke. Everybody screams for their gun rights, so they can defend themselves and others should the time arise, even though half the people on here are nothing more than armchair operators who would cry, piss their pants, and then pass out if they were ever personally introduced to a firefight, but yet anytime a LEO uses a weapon against a someone in a dangerous situation, they get crucified by all the people on here who dont have a clue what its like to be put into any kind of life threatening situation
Typed from your armchair, no doubt.
Excuse us for having an opinion, but you didn’t tell us what to think until 18:08. Now that we know, we have all changed our minds and defer to your superior knowledge and intellect. Now go do your homework.
Pat Quinn, I presume?
She needed to be shot if you are going to pull that kind of bulls..t.How do they know there isn’t a car bomb attempt?what if she got through? I don’t care if she is depressed ,join the club lady.Lots of people are and they don’t do that.Check her medical records I’ll bet you’ll find she is on prescribed mood drugs,what do you wanna bet,but that info will be covered up cause drug companies don’t want that out!
What if she got through? You might as well ask, “What if she could fly using unicorn farts and rainbow dust?” The White House is one of the most heavily defended buildings on Earth. No lunatic armed only with a Lexus is getting through those barriers.
Yes, it was the mood drugs. And penicillin causes syphilis.
There is something to be considered here. If one or one hundred lunatics have a problem with a drug it’s called a side effect – even if it’s a suicidal or murderous intent. The drug remains available to all. If same one or hundred manifest intent with a gun, some reason that the solution is to deprive the entire nation of guns. Based on this reasoning eventually we’ll all be walking around naked, the entire nation will be the asylum and it truly will be run by the lunatics.
Unsound logic.
“But I’m not wondering if the D.C. IA or the SS will reveal their findings to the people who pay (paid?) their salaries. No doubt the information will be sheltered from public scrutiny in the name of national security.”
There will be no reason to conceal the results of the internal investigation, since the finding will be “100% justified, no wrongdoing”. Just like 99.999% of officer-involved shootings. Cops don’t make mistakes, Robert.
She was scared. She probably made the wrong call. But she was killed in a turkey shoot.. while fleeing. Causing minimal injury to anyone. She should have been arrested not executed. Your assessment IS wrong. She wasn’t trying to kill the president you fucking dumbass.
There is a high probability she wanted to ask Barry for help.
I am of the opinion that the police use tactics that increase the likelihood that they will have the opportunity to shoot somebody. I don’t see that opinion changing based on this story nor the comments here.
This is particularly a possibility in situations where SWAT are used to serve simple warrants or even warrantless searches. Many are even done well after dark without much preceding police work.
Here is a very good example.
http://www.abcactionnews.com/dpp/news/us-marshals-terrorize-woman-by-mistake
There is a lot of that sort of thing about!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Jean_Charles_de_Menezes
You hear about the thug treyvon martin episode for about a year straight from every liberal in the world and their media, but you have a straight up assassination here and it’s, well,..you see,.. she had emotional/mental issues and, uh,.. case closed.
Interim Update:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/oct/7/capitol-chase-details-clearer-not-motive/
I believe everything wrote was actually very logical.
However, consider this, what if you composed a catchier title?
I ain’t saying your content isn’t good., but suppose you added a
post title that makes people want more? I mean Capitol Hill Shooting:
17 Shots Fired. Controversy Rages | The Truth About
Guns is kinda vanilla. You might peek at Yahoo’s home page
and watch how they write post titles to get people to click.
You might add a video or a related pic or two to grab readers excited about
everything’ve written. In my opinion, it would make your
posts a little livelier.
Capitol Hill Shooting: 17 Shots Fired. Controversy Rages | The Truth About Guns
Lon Smith Roofing http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fi4pQKMio6A/