As we reported below, the West Virginia house yesterday overrode Democrat Governor Earl Ray Tomblin’s veto of a bill eliminating carry licenses for most Mountain Staters. This morning, the senate did their part to annoy the governor by a 23-11 margin. As wsaz.com reports, “The bill will do away with the state’s current permit and training program to carry a concealed weapon in West Virginia for anyone ages 21 and older. Permits will be required for those between 18-21.” The bill becomes law in 90 days.
I hope Ohio has its ears open.
Ohioan here. The problem with any pro-liberty laws in Ohio is the police unions. Every single law, especially gun laws, that will reduce unconstitutional government control is met with fierce resistance from the police (because fewer things being illegal means fewer cops needed) and since Ohio is mostly conservative, police are viewed as infallible demigods.
Liberal California is taking away freedom.
In conservative West Virginia freedom grows.
Ohio’s problem is strong government unions who flip the “bird” to the Constitution.
You must have missed what happened here in WV. The Gov. twice veto that bill because of LE resistance.
Amen. But much respect to WV for having the courage to abide by the Constitution of the United States of America. Oh btw WV is just next door to Ohio. Here’s hoping.
Sorry not worth the trouble of invading Ohio. Or you meant something about copycat legislation? 🙂
It’s been proposed in ohio during the last three sessions that I know of and has been killed in committee every time
When your neighbor passes legislation, lawmakers take notice. Especially if the ones responsible for said law get reelected.
I’ve Been hopeful every session for years but every time thus far it’s been killed in committee
Way to go West Virginia!!!
Congratulations WV. Yeah, I won’t be speaking so highly of Michigan’s open carry.
Me either. I thought we were/are a fairly gun friendly state but Cheers to West Virginia!!!! Time to move???!
We are FAIRLY gun friendly. Could better. Could be a helluva lot (imperial, not metric) worse. And it’s slowly getting better.
I don’t see Constitutional carry happening under Snyder, though, unless they can override his veto. The man has NO love for guns.
Override his veto, Hell.
If he doesn’t want a pro-gun bill on his desk, he orders it killed without a committee vote. The Republican House and especially Senate leadership cares a whole lot more for his future than for the state’s.
Don’t get me wrong, I love my state, but there are reasons people leave here after they’re adults.
The state is beautiful, especially in fall, but there isn’t a whole lot here outside of a handful of cities. That said, land’s cheap, taxes are fairly low, and the people are friendly. That said, many cops and politicians are corrupt and the dead vote with shocking regularity, some having a post mortem change of party.
Lands cheap and taxes are low? Compared to New York or Cali maybe. I stay because my wife is afraid of leaving state lines while her parents age. I do not see myself in MI in 10-15 years. As above nothing pro gun will get Synder’s signature, he has already threw us under the bus once and then refused to sign other bills that hit his desk. It’s sad when the NRA gives a R the same grade as most of D in the state.
God’s country and all….
Well I’ll be damned.. right on! coming soon to a state near you!
Amen! I hope NV does this.
I’ve been watching this closely, as moving to West Virginia has become a serious option for me in the coming years.
First they became Right to Work, and now this? HUGE selling points.
They have strictest vaccine laws in country, the state has parental discretion over children.
This is true.
However, it is applicable only to children attending public school. My intent has always been to either enroll my children in a Catholic private school or, if that’s not a viable option, homeschool them. In this manner, we would not be affected by vaccine mandates.
Didn’t realize hat the law didn’t extend to parochial and private schools. CA just passed a law that prevents kids from going to private or public schools.
Durrrrr I shouldn’t have to vaccinate my special snowflake because the health of the herd is less important than my kid not feeling a pinprick.
Antivaccers. Morons, all of them.
Look, I agree, but antagonizing them in TTAG is about as helpful as the other *SHALL NOT BE NAMED* hot-button issues that regularly un-neccesarrily rile folks up here…
Cripes…
Congrats again, WV!
I hear you, Geoff, but I’m of the opinion that people need to know when they’re being idiots.
Maybe you can correct me, but isn’t the point of getting vaccinated to prevent you from getting the disease from a carrier, whether it be another person or not? If you get vaccinated, what difference does it make if someone else doesn’t? If the vaccine doesn’t protect you from other carriers, what’s the point?
Oh goodie, another herd mentality whiner. This is fun.
I could give a rat’s ass if my kid “feels a pinprick.” My parents raised me with the “if it hurts, I probably won’t do it again” mentality, and it worked. I do the same for my children. It’s not about them “feeling a pinprick” at all.
What it IS about, is the health of my child. Yes, I will take the health and comfort of my child over that of the “herd” 100% of the time, and from where I stand you’re a sorry excuse for a parent if you don’t.
I’m not at all an “anti-vaccer,” I don’t believe that they all cause autism, etc etc. What I DO believe is that, first off, the government doesn’t get to mandate what I do or do not want to inject into either my body or the bodies of my children. Secondly, lots of these vaccines are new. Their track record is unproven. It probably won’t cause autism, but who knows what it might do? For something as mundane as the chicken pox, the kid is much better off just getting the chicken pox and healing up than getting the shot, in my opinion. We KNOW that chicken pox won’t hurt him, whereas there’s always a chance, however miniscule, that something could go wrong with the vaccine. There are others that fall into this category as well. The risk, however small, isn’t worth the reward for something like that. They’re better off just chancing the disease, and healing up. I did, and they will too. Polio would obviously be a different story.
Not to mention, do you trust pharmaceutical companies? I don’t. No, they’re not “the boogieman,” but the potential for abuse is always present. “… paved with good intentions” and all that.
Hmmm. I feel diferent about that. And moron is kinda harse, because moron spelled backwards is norom and if you add an l after that you get noroml. And everything seems normal until an allergic reaction to the vaccine and your child winds up being a moron
@Thomas, your pharmaceutical AstroTurf posts are ridiculous and transparent. Get over it .
Haha, so true.
“The measles vaccine causes autism!”
No, it doesn’t, but even if there was even a shred of credible evidence, which there isn’t, you know what the actual measles infection causes? Measles.
Repeat with polio, whooping cough, and all the others.
I’m sorry your kid is on the spectrum. That’s shitty luck, and life sucks. But that’s all it is.
It would nice if TTAG could prevent paid posters from trolling these boards, unfortunately this will never be the case. @thomas, your astroturfing is so blatant and transparent, you are actually helping the cause you are being paid to smear.
I’ve been fighting the Liberals and progressives here for some time now , may be starting to pay off . We also are dumping Common Core , first rebranded but soon we will be back to basics education and teaching real history and Civics and reintroducing mechanical education , metal working , wood working , mechanical drawing and engineering and basic mechanics if I live long enough and especially if America can elect a non progressive into the presidency , like Ted Cruz .
We have some of the greatest forest land here in WV and we use it to make RR ties or we ship it to the Carolinas to be made into furniture . We should be this country’s greatest furniture manufacture . Just a generation ago one in four West Virginians could rebuild a carburetor , repair a broken rod in an old motor and go back two generations , they could build a house , wire it , plumb it and make their own moldings to finish it out and with Cherry or Red Oak milled locally also .
Old ways aren’t always unfashionable . I was taught all the skills I need to survive before I turned 18 and only refined them along the way , sorta like continued education and keeping up on the current codes , but I can still frame , wire and plumb a house , fix an engine , build a desk , do basic joinery , plow and sow a field , basic welding , raise and cultivate hogs , cattle and fowl , butcher , can and store food , harvest , thresh , winnow and grind grains , and even bake the bread .
I want West Virginians to get back to basics , forget the digital age , you’re one EMP away from total dependence if you don’t and you’ll pass through life without the joy of being independent . Learn to hunt and fish , how to grow things and the responsibilities that accompany this knowledge .
I love West Virginia .
Go Ted Cruz .
WV Senate just over rode Tomlins veto on Partial Birth Abortion . Just when things are finally looking good here in WV , we’re going to get Trump .
Sad !
Holy crap. Is WV turning ‘red’? Eat your heart out, Jay Rockefeller.
1) Legislators pass the bill
2) Governor vetoes bill
3) Legislators override veto
Hey Governor- you aren’t getting the message- people want Constitutional carry. Want to keep your damn job? LISTEN TO THE PEOPLE. it’s not rocket surgery…
Clearly the people and the legislature just lack the governor’s common sense. People must be protected from themselves dontcha know.
While that should be the case the reality is that if Tomblin ever wants a higher level political position he’ll need the financial support of the Fraternal Order of Police, Sheriff’s Association, Bloomberg Media, Mothers Against Everything that Doesn’t Offer Participation Medals etc. His party (still the natural one of the state) will vote for him and the undecided generally aren’t single issue as such the peons as a whole aren’t really important to the process. So screw their rights.
Remember the guy has cut taxes left and right, while the states traditional money makers have near collapsed (sometimes literally on the miners) and handed out raises to union employees like candy. His master plan to fix the mistake is to go “oh look states finances are f… please other party raise taxes before a major election”.
Congratulations, West Virginia!
Congratulations, West Virginia!
I would like to welcome the people of WV to America from We The People in AZ.
And Kansas says” Howdie” too.
…and Vermont (regardless of what Bernie from Brooklyn has to say about it)
Can KY be in your club?
You have the governor now , get rid of Mitch and the progressives that have infested the bluegrasses and stop freaking voting for Trump . I think you’re a little ways away after seeing who most big blues and Cardinal Reds just voted to be the next President .
I think WV will go Cruz no matter how much Trump says he’s going to bring back coal . We have Marsalis and Utica shale .
I’m praying for Kentucky neighbor .
Weee haa! congrats from Maine!
DamDoc, pardon my inquisitiveness, but are you in Damarascotta by any chance?
This is part of why I am seriously considering moving there.
Please do and vote constitutional conservative and bring all who think like you along and we may increase in number and grow greater with time .
God bless , you will be welcome .
Good to see the constitutional carry trend keeps rolling. Iowa will be just about the last state to do it of the states that will do it. The politicians here aren’t anti-gun, they’re just really slow.
Iowa is a blue state. Electoral college voted for Obama in both elections.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election_in_Iowa,_2012
Iowa democrats are absolutely not gun friendly:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iowa_Democratic_Party#Gun_regulation
Iowa is a purple state that went for W in 2004. And it was the Democrats that passed Shall Issue in 2010 (they lost anyway).
I might add that the governor and the house are Republican, both US senators and 3 of the 4 representatives are Republican. The only thing the Democrats have in Iowa is the senate and that’s just by 26-24.
Congrats WV hope Indiana is next.
Next is likely to be Idaho. Then there’s bills working their way through the state legislatures in Kentucky, Tennessee, South Carolina, and Utah. New Hampshire will go permitless once they stop voting female democrats as governor and Indiana will get there eventually if it becomes a big enough issue with the people that they become one issue voters.
The issue for Indiana is there’s a lot of black people in Gary and Indianapolis and the thought of blacks carrying guns doesn’t sit well with most people, not even blacks themselves.
Is that Shannon Watts’ angle? Fear of imagined wild unwhite people? Figures. So sad.
“Permits will be required for those between 18-21.”
No “constitutional rights” if you are 21 or younger? How does that work? If people between 18 and 21 need a “license,” why not everyone else?
Maybe next year the young adults can join the party…
should probably apply only to males…
Is it may issue or shall issue? I understand the age of majority and old enough to vote/enlist/etc. argument and do wonder how 18 vs 21 distinctions are made. On the other hand, I see how they handle voting and alcohol, and I’m not inclined to judge this too harshly.
There is something to be said about that. What about this, an 18 y/o Marine can carry a full auto in the sand but can’t carry a sidearm state side?
Or a beer.
“There is something to be said about that.”
The last time I expressed that sentiment in TTAG on that very issue, I was loudly accused of ‘Projection’ … 🙂
@ Geoff. There are a lot of stupid young adults ,18-21, doing stupid things (just watch YouTube plenty of examples). But I believe as an American every person deserves to make their own choices. If they do stupid stuff, then make them pay for it. If they can show they are going to be responsible adults, great.
My constitutional rights are null and void because of my zip code. Age is just another angle to attack our rights.
While I am in full agreement that 18-21 year olds should not be required to carry a permit, we must keep one very important idea in mind:
“Perfect is the enemy of good.”
Enacting Constitutional Carry legislation is a HUGE step forward. I haven’t read the specifics of the bill, but more than likely the 18-21y/o permitting requirement was added to muster enough votes to ensure its passage. It is infinitely better to get 90% of what you want than aim too high and get nothing. There is always next year, and when people realize that reverting to Constitutional Carry for 21+ doesn’t make the streets run red with blood, they’ll eventually come to the conclusion that people aged 18-21 are equally as capable.
Same here in Kansas, concealed carry, open carry, but not for 18yr olds. Guess they think not mature enuff?
Might open up the whole, can get shot at in a middle east ***hole for country, can vote, can operate a motor vehicle etc etc but too immature and dumb to drink a beer can of worms.
Does anybody know if permitless carry apply to nonresidents as well?
Apparently as an amendment adding a residency requirement was shot down. Needs a full reading and lawyer to English translation as all kinds of BS is flying around.
Also heard no permitless concealed where alcohol is sold (not just served) so not allowed in Walmarts, Krogers, etc once dust settled we’ll be able to figure out how restricted it may or may not be in comparison to rubber stamped carry.
I only pass through West Virginia on my way to regular Virginia. Neither my Wisconsin or Minnesota permit is good in WV and I would not have to give Virginia $100 for free transit rights.
This law will apply for residents and nonresidents. As of June 5 feel free to travel the state while enjoying your free constitutional right. For more info on the law feel free to check out WVCDL.com since they aided in the writing and passing of this law.
Maybe there’s hope for WV.
Almost heaven.
So shines a good dead in a weary world.
Digging the Wonka quote.
Candy is dandy, but liquor is quicker.
Former Senoir Senator, and Grand Kleagle Robert KKK Byrd is speechless as he’s still dead. But kudos to West By God Virginia.
Let the movement gain momentum.
Welcome to the club WV!
The law they passed is a start in the right direction imo. Everyone has the right for defense of self and home. (If they are responsible enough)
But, as far as the age restriction, i’m inclined to agree with.
Just take a drive though your local major city and see what kind of 18-21 year old’s you will encounter. The vast majority cant even pull their pants up or turn their hats around and speak with maturity and dignity or clarity that others can understand, its absurd imo.
Now you want to put guns in their hands? That is a terrible idea.
Sure there are some that have been raised right, but the vast MAJORITY are parented by the T.V shows and movies they watch and the music they listen too.
There are exceptions, but the majority outweigh the minority. And when the majority show they are irresponsible and anti-values, they shouldn’t reap the rewards of people that are.
Just my thoughts on young adults in todays society carrying guns… it worries me, even some that are of legal age fall into this as well.
while I’m not a fan of black and white logic for everything, you do realize this is how it starts? You pick who you feel is allowed to have a right, and the next thing you know, they are picking who is allowed to have a right, and you’ve lost yours.
People should be allowed to do what they want, and then face the consequences if they hurt someone else. If you are old enough to vote, and operate a vehicle, then why do you think a gun is more dangerous?
Agree 100% and this argument will carry more weight now that 21+ can carry without permit. We are winning. Bare down.
Wonder if the brady bunch will buy billboards in WV like they did FL warning everyone that people here can shoot you if you assault them. I never had a problem with the signs, I figured they were fair warning to criminals. The only problem with constitutional carry is slippery streets from all the blood.
(sarc)
Those signs are much more agreeable than GFZ signs.
If you live in WV, be sure to continue to donate to the WVCDL.
Perhaps posting more links to shooting vids featuring your friend Jordan may help remind folks… 🙂
(Yeah, you busted me. I’m a D.O.M. in training…)
Felicitations to the Mountaineers! Looks like as a state, they have more actual “gun sense” (not to be confused with faux #gunsense) than Texas. Maybe we can catch up sometime…
This is just DAMN good news.
http://www.kniferights.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=362&Itemid=1
Looks it s now in conflict white local laws on knifes.
Would nice if it can got interpreted for all legal owned weapons as deadly weapon permitless art, thats would be the super goal.
Now remove the felony for k12 parking next thats another big issue.
“The bill will do away with the state’s current permit and training program to carry a concealed weapon in West Virginia for anyone ages 21 and older. Permits will be required for those between 18-21”
OK so which is it, 21 year olds will need permits or not. I am assuming not.
I realize that permit systems are sometimes open to abuse by Government but here in Ohio its actually a good thing. I think the permit system in West Virginia is even more necessary and if you have ever been to West Virginia you would know why. Without proper training in gun safety and laws governing deadly force a person who carries a gun without training often gets the idea they can shoot anyone that they feel needs to be shot. In Ohio training emphasizes you may not shoot someone just for stealing your property as well as other situations where deadly force is illegal. This is all taught in the concealed carry classes.
I do feel such classes should be free and the permits should also be free as we are dealing with a constitutional right but the Government in Ohio even charges us for use of the turnpike which was paid for long ago and the Government had promised when it was paid for it would be free but of course they lied. So we have to pay for many of our rights that should be free, its nothing new when dealing with the corrupt Government at the State or Federal or Local levels.
In some theoretically ideal utopia, it is certainly possible that an angel would descend from the heavens and teach all those contemplating carrying how best to do it. If you’re really good, maybe you’ll get to such a place in the afterlife. On this planet, no government on any continent, at any time, has ever done anything even remotely net positive. Entrusting any of them with anything at all, is beyond the height of folly.
If someone effs up, they can deal with the consequences. And that remains true whether effing up refers to shooting someone you probably shouldn’t, or to failing to take the necessary precautions against being shot by someone who effs up in the former manner. The one effup that, after all these years/decades/centuries of overreach and horrors, is by now inexcusable, is to grab ankles and beg massa gommiment to “do something” about someone or something.
In never ceases to appall me the shortsightedness of the average Conservative. They cannot see past the nose on their face until they run right into a brick wall,often with disastrous consequences. None ever bother to think that without training in safety or the laws that “someone else” just might blow away a member of your own family due to the lack of training or lack of knowledge of the laws. Then the dim light bulb finally comes on and you just begin to realize how important understanding deadly force laws are as well as training in gun safety really is essential.
The real shortsightedness is to still believe that, even after centuries of unequivocally contrary evidence, government is somehow going to help “keep you safe.” And that, somehow, a bunch of government lackeys care about your family and whether they get shot or not. As opposed to them caring more about being given ever more authority to make decisions on your behalf. To benefit themselves. Not you. Not your family. Not anyone else. Just themselves.
If being skeptical of government is evidence of a “dimb bulb,” not being so is certainly akin to an “anti bulb.” As in a black hole. Sucking in everything around it. Voluntarily so, in the case of well indoctrinated idiots.
If we follow your Moronic Babbling then no one should have to take a drivers license test or anyone could practice Medicine without a license, become a Barber with no license, 0r become a Police officer with no training. The reality is there are laws passed for a good reason its to protect the public from unnecessary death or injury and getting a Concealed Carry license is no different. Get past the childish notion that the Constitution was drafted with no limits on personal freedom. If it was we could yell fire in a theater even if we knew it would cause a stampede and kill people. We could say its our Constitution right of freedom of speech.
The facts are the freedoms of the Constitution are not limitless they were never meant to be. And remember too its the Supreme Court that gives you your rights not the Constitution because reality dictates the Constitution does mean what it says it means it means what the Supreme Court says it means.
I am actually a big supporter of safety training and encourage anyone to take a course, so much so that I feel one of the best places for it is the room next to where the drivers ed guy shows the snuff movies, perhaps lead by the PRO (who at least in my county are PRO GUN).
Until that is offered as an option the concealed carry permit is there to make sure folks are trained argument is total BS. Well that and the fact untrained open carry is already legal.
The legal part is far more detailed than any single class can go into. if “Don’t blow off the neighbors kids head for retrieving his ball from your yard” and “Don’t escalate a cart nudge in Walmart to a shoot out” and “If your wife let the other guy inside it’s a divorce not a funeral” and variations of need explained in serious depth to some people then no amount of class hours will be enough for them anyway. Even after they have their rubber stamp and handed over the checks for the permit.
While the permits require a legal rundown, I seriously doubt when hand is about to be placed on firearm that legal subtleties are in mind but rather “this $%### is about to do me or my family harm, not letting it happen”. A decision that is made faster than I could ever type it out.
Handguns aren’t really that difficult to use that’s why the drug dealers of this world have such a good kill ratio despite lack of formal training and poor handling practices and lack of care. Maybe the dealers just got into bad habits long after they took their permit classes. Sound about right Mike B?
I don’t have to take a class to vote, give a speech or go to worship. Yet you think I should take a class to exercise my RTKABA. Tell you what. You stay on your side of the Ohio river and I’ll stay on mine. You coming to WV would just lower the average IQ in both states.
As for you statement, “I think the permit system in West Virginia is even more necessary and if you have ever been to West Virginia you would know why.” With all due respect—pound sand.
The linked article and the quote pulled from it is wrong: the new legislation does not “do away with” the permit system. It removes the penalties for carrying without a permit for non-prohibited persons 21 years of age and over. Permits are still available for reciprocity purposes if you want to carry in other states.
Which simply means the new law will let the majority start to carry with no knowledge of the laws regarding deadly force and no training in safety either. When I attended Ohio’s classes it became readily apparent many in the class were in desperate need of both kinds of training.
Which simply means the new law will let the majority start to carry with no knowledge of the laws regarding deadly force and no training in safety either. When I attended Ohio’s classes it became readily apparent many in the class were in desperate need of both kinds of training.
Washington state has no training requirements of any kind whatsoever. All that is necessary is to pay the fee, get fingerprinted, and pass the background check. And we also have no problems with people being ignorant of the law or gun safety. The people who care will find out for themselves. There are tons of private sector outlets offering instruction in those areas. The people who don’t care would instantly forget anything they heard at a government mandated class. So there is no difference either way, except that one way there are additional hoops for legal owners to carry.
Same for indiana.
Your response does not reflect reality. People these days have neither the money or the time to seek out special training. And most do not have the inclination either. Only by being required to sit through the training will we insure that everyone gets the training they need. As to whether they heed the advice or not will determine if they end up in jail and or being sued into bankruptcy if they do not obey all the concealed carry laws. I think many of the people that went through the course I went through got a real eye opening in regards to their previous fantasies about the power of concealed carry and the consequences of not knowing the laws or safe handling of firearms.
Of the two of us, I think you’re the one who needs to reexamine reality. People take out what they bring into training. Those who are genuinely interested to know about self defense law and gun safety will learn it, whether the government tells them to or not. Those who aren’t interested will never learn, even if the state makes them sit in an eight hour class.
You’re making the familiar “blood in the streets” argument, but it hasn’t come to pass anywhere else permitting requirements have been relaxed, and it’s not true of anywhere that doesn’t have a training requirement. People just don’t put guns on their hips, walk out the door, and start looking around for people to shoot. It just doesn’t work that way. Instead, people act sensibly most of the time, and 99 times out of 100, the people who are problems would have been problems no matter what regulatory scheme is in place.
Your responses continue to be your own unsubstantiated wild speculation. My response was based on first hand observation of peoples actual knowledge of gun safety and gun laws which was for the majority totally non-existent. We went through two intensive days of training and we were all given a hard folder with the lessons and laws for future reference.
Now to respond in the way you did with wild speculation was the height of total ignorance, recklessness, and disregard for the future acceptance by the population of the U.S. for the right of concealed carry.
I cannot forget the young mother last year that had a concealed handgun which was of the striker fired safety less design. Her 2 year old reached into her purse and because the gun did not have a long hard double action pull and no safety it went off and killed her. She would be alive today if she had been carrying say a Beretta 92 which does indeed have a manual safety in addition to a long hard double action pull. The child would not have been strong enough or experienced enough to deactivate the safety and shoot his mother with the gun before the mother took the gun from him. Now if the bullet had missed her it could have went on down through the store and killed one or possible two people. Obviously she had no safety training with this type of weapon nor did she understand how the gun worked as is the current case with the majority of striker fired owners because if she and they had such training she would not have carried such a weapon the way she did or probably chose another much safer designed weapon altogether. When you read the Moronic responses of many striker fired owners it leaves no doubt that countries like Germany that have very strict safety course requirements have been down this road in the past and have done something positive to change things.
This is what happens with a lack of mandatory safety training which not only results in the death of the user but can result in the death of other innocent people which of course is all the anti-gun people need to promote a complete ban on concealed carry. Its irresponsible people like yourself which actually help destroy Second Amendment rights for all of us who are responsible enough to recognize the essential need for thorough safety training. When you talk to European people as in Germany and the very ridged gun safety training they receive before they are even allowed to purchase a handgun.
Its also obvious you never bothered to take the Other Posters advice and click on stray bullets and be appalled at all the incidents of accidental discharges resulting in stray bullets.
I am all for concealed carry, as I have a permit myself but unlike you I recognized the serious responsibility that comes with such a permit which you do not. Your cavalier attitude is the reason so many people are maimed or killed not just with concealed carry but in the home as well or even on the shooting range. Many shooting ranges I have been associated with have had to hire full time “safety personnel” just to police the range to keep irresponsible people from shooting themselves, others or distant neighbors. More and more shooting clubs are also demanding mandatory safety classes before you can become a member and this is no different than demanding the same of people applying for concealed permits at the State level.
Anecdote is not evidence, and does not refute or trump actual, statistical evidence.
Except that, statistics prove that firearm ownership is at an all-time high, firearm rights are expanding at rates not seen previously in my lifetime, and firearm-related accidents are at historically low rates and numbers.
Further: our rights are not “second amendment” rights; our rights are inherent, and the second amendment merely protects them.
And recognizing the benefits (and, to some extent, the necessity) of training does not in any way imply that the government can, should, or need be involved.
Do tell me: how serious do I consider the responsibility of owning and carrying firearms? How much training have I had?
What cavalier attitude? What people have been maimed or killed by my attitude?
Do you truly fail to see the difference?
Private clubs can demand whatever they want of their members. The government may not demand anything of the law-abiding with respect to the possession and carrying of firearms.
Quote:——————
Except that, statistics prove that firearm ownership is at an all-time high, firearm rights are expanding at rates not seen previously in my lifetime, and firearm-related accidents are at historically low rates and numbers.——————-Quote————-
Dodging the subject once again as this statement does not change the fact that people do indeed get killed or maimed because of a lack of training in firearms safety and you just write it all off as collateral damage.
Quote:——————And recognizing the benefits (and, to some extent, the necessity) of training does not in any way imply that the government can, should, or need be involved.————————Quote:
Every civilized country in the world that permits firearms ownership realizes that when the Government does not mandate training the bulk of firearms
owners get none both for financial reasons , time restraint, and just plain shiftlessness and irresponsibility.
Quote——————————-Do tell me: how serious do I consider the responsibility of owning and carrying firearms? ——————————————–Quote—————–
From your responses you leave nothing to the imagination. You have stated that you have an unlimited absolute right to carry a firearm or store one at home with no mandatory Government laws that require safety training or safe storage to keep guns out of the hands of children. You have stated this over and over again. You admitted that after a long rant about safe storage and trigger locks that you did indeed keep guns out of the hands of children and out of the hands of adults visiting your home. The old adage “believe in what a Politician does not what he says” certainly applies to you as you got caught red handed on that one.
Quote——————-What cavalier attitude? What people have been maimed or killed by my attitude?—————————–Quote:
You yourself stated (way understated) the 600 deaths (and forgot to mention all the accidental shootings) that happen in the U.S. The direct result of You and other people who have a cavalier attitude towards mandated safety courses because as you have previously stated you have “an absolute” right to do as you please when it comes to carrying a gun or storing it safely or attending mandated government safety classes and training.
Quote—————————–Do you truly fail to see the difference?
Private clubs can demand whatever they want of their members. The government may not demand anything of the law-abiding with respect to the possession and carrying of firearms.————————————————–Quote———————
It is you who fail to see that there is no difference between a dead body that got that way because of either a Government or Private Club that did not have mandated safety courses on safe gun handling. Do we bury them in separate grave yards in accordance with your philosophy?
I agree that training is necessary, especially based on the people I know in the state. And the idea that because you own a gun means you practice and competent with it is a fantasy. Many couldn’t hit a barn and spray bullets everywhere. I want to go further and hold people criminally liable for irresponsible carry; which I know I will see in WV now.
R
Excellent news. Another state for me to possibly move to. /;-)
Now get rid of Tomblin.
Good job WV congrats and welcome to the club from Kansas. It feels good to get one more state closer to where we should be.
Yippe! Way to go west virginia.
Hey, I live in the state. We all grew up around firearms. But the incidence of personal crime is very low. Very low. There is no safety reason to carry in 99% of the state. I was taught that a firearm is a tool, not a fetish or totem item. Carrying a gun is like carrying around a hoe or a circular saw. Sure , you may need to all of a sudden work a garden or cut some lumber, but to carry it around? Why bother.
But if you do, I want you trained and licensed. Many here can’t responsibly handle a car, have lost their driver’s lic or can’t afford to pay fines; so they ride on the roads on ATVs, ending up in the emergency room. But everyone thinks they can handle a gun in public.
Well, here is what I expect from someone carrying a firearm.
I want you able to hit a target with one shot at 15 yrds and not need another. I want you responsible for every bullet fired off the range. If it enters another dwelling or car, I want you arrested and tried for reckless endangerment. If you drop it in the library or WalMart, I want you arrested and tried for reckless endangerment. If you accidentally shoot someone, I want you tried for attempted manslaughter, just like a drunk driver.
There is too much loose talk and too many would be Wild Bill Hickok. Serious crime in the nation by all measures is down, however, corporations have pushed this agenda to sell more firearms. But remember, as soon as its not profitable, they will turn on you in a second and you will have no one stand up for your rights since anyone questioning their power has been denigrated in many’s minds.
I notice a lot of anti-union sentiment here and pro-corporation. Since this is a thread about WV, I’m sure you all know that big businesses were the ones that pushed for the more strict firearm laws and the Union were the ones who marched to battle by the thousands with their personal weapons to fight for their freedoms against the coal companies. Look up the Mine Wars to see it, the largest armed insurrection since the Civil War.
And if you think big business won’t do it again you are more foolish than ever.
Ridge
Well, then it’s a damned good thing the only person that cares about what you want is you.
There is a very good reason to carry at all times. Because I want to be able to protect myself to the best of my ability, at all times. Period. Simple as that.
No, it’s not the same as “carrying a hoe or a circular saw.” Why? Because if you encounter a sudden need for a hoe or a circular saw, you won’t potentially lose your life, or watch another person lose their life, if you don’t have one at hand. If you suddenly need a circular saw, you can run home and grab it with no ill effects. Not so with a firearm.
Who gives a rat’s fart what you want with respect to another’s lawful exercise of a constitutionally protected, natural and civil right? Your wants are irrelevant, and you have no business imposing your wants on another’s exercise of rights.
Such laws are already in place, with or without constitutional or state-licensed carry is in place. Your wants have nothing to do with it.
My wants do matter because I have to live with the idiocy that this law represents. And yes, there are already laws in place for reckless use of firearms, but how many are really enforced? How many years will the lady get for hosing down the Home Depot parking lot? And I mean years. How many years will the guy get whose gun dropped in the WalMart and went off ? This “no harm, no foul” bullshit is stupid. If you are going to carry, you have to be responsible for every bullet that leaves your gun, most especially in a public place. If you are irresponsible, because of the nature of the thing, then you should be held criminally negligent ; with jail time.
If carriers can’t be held to that standard, then the whole “personal responsibility” attitude proclaimed by so many is just so much hot air.
Your wants matter to YOU, sure. But nobody else. You can take that to the bank.
Your wants become irrelevant where another person’s rights begin.
Russ-
I also have Constitutional rights not to be endangered by walking across a parking lot or looking at books in a library without some bozo dropping his gun. I don’t care if he is carrying, but as soon as he can’t control it, it infringes on my rights and someone has to pay. Why should it be me in the hospital? Besides, what happened to personal responsibility?
[Citation needed]
Semi-protect the Constitution, indeed.
One, where is that in the constitution?
Two, where is there any documented evidence of any such risk as that over which you’re clutching pearls?
Please point out where your right to stand in the library free from all danger is enumerated in the Constitution. The constitution is , at least theoretically, there to prevent the government from overstepping its proper functions and interfering with individual liberties. it is not there to put limits on individual liberties in order to completely eliminate danger from public life, and certainly not to make panty-wetters feel “safe”.
Oh, you have a Constitutional right to not be endangered while walking across the street? Well, by golly, that Amendment must have slipped right by me.
Every single thing you post just further proves a total lack of common sense.
No, they don’t. Shall not be infringed. FULLSTOP.
So, basically, reading the rest of your comment, you’re going with a variation of the “blood will run in the streets” canard? Any statistics to back it up?
Chip and Matt-
14th amend case law amply supports safety law and regulation, including which one could construe safe from negligent firearm usage. But even if you disagree, what sanctions would you impose on the lady from Home Depot? She got arraigned on a misdemeanor. Do think that is correct? Firing at a fleeing car in a public lot? With others around?
As for instances of wild fire threatening the public, just look up “wounded stray bullet” not all are gang related
Excellent point Ridge. I wonder what Chip says to this one.
MMM: egg. I could use some. With my travel schedule, I generally don’t get the chance to eat breakfast on Monday.
(But I’m still waiting for relevant case law to be cited, that shows that the constitution confers some right to be “safe” from anyone/anything besides the government. Maybe you can provide?)
[citation needed]
Please cite the case law that interprets the constitution to provide a right to be “safe” (from anyone/anything other than the government).
You continually conflate two issues: prior restraint (requiring the law-abiding to get state licensing in order to exercise a constitutionally protected right), and holding people accountable for harm they cause in the exercise of that right.
Requiring licenses will not enable or facilitate holding people accountable for harm that they cause. If you want to toughen the laws/sentencing for various forms of harm, then advocate such. But stop conflating such laws/sentencing with licensing requirements, because the two have absolutely nothing to do with each other.
Right. Especially in NY or LA, where most non-gang-related such occurrences are caused by the police.
Simple.
The 14th Amendment can be enforced up to the point at which it encroaches on the protections of any other Amendment. Congress NEVER has the Constitutional authority to pass ANY legislation that violates the protections of ANY article of the Constitution. Thus, legislation rooted in the 14th Amendment is perfectly lawful until such a time as it serves to present a barrier to the free exercise of the 2nd Amendment.
FLAME DELETED Carrying a gun is a very serious responsibility. When I attended concealed carry classes I was shocked at the lack of knowledge in regards to the safe handling of firearms as well as the peoples lack of knowledge about the serious consequences of using deadly force. When I explained a few points to the people that even the instructor failed to cover a few of the people went into shock and decided the financial risk was too great for them. This is not what I wanted to happen but I was not about to lie to them either. All this simply proves that people need to be thoroughly trained before they get the conceal carry license as it makes us all a lot safer knowing you will not have some fool accidentally shoot someone when carrying or worse shoot someone when he has no legal right to do so.
As I said before most people do not have the time, money or inclination to get private training after getting a permit in a State that requires no training. When they are required to get the training first then they will know what can happen to them financially and also legally if they do not follow the concealed carry laws as well as the laws of deadly force.
People like you Chip FLAME DELETED when you start mouthing off about “its my Constitutional right” and you do not care how many innocent people get killed because you will not be inconvenienced to “do it the right way” and get proper training for such a serious decision as concealed carry. And remember your Constitutional rights are mere “fantasy” as the Constitution does not mean what it says it means, rather it means what the Supreme Court says it means which means you have no rights unless the Court gives them to you. That’s the real reality in regards to your fantasies about the Constitution, whether you like it or not.
Bla bla bla.
100,000,000 firearms owners. 12,000,000 or so who carry.
600 accidental deaths per year.
We’re the safest people on the planet. Go clutch your pearls elsewhere.
Here we go again with the fact that your dead body count is not high enough. Of course as usual you quote your own statistics but even if we let you have your fantasies what would your response be if some of the 600 dead bodies just happed to be some of your own family. Then you would be dancing and singing in the blood of your own family.
Freedom is inherently risky and dangerous, because fallible humans are the ones engaging in it. The only way to reduce any given risk to zero is to restrict freedom far beyond anything even remotely reasonable.
CDC are the definitive source for such statistics. We’re still waiting for you to cite contradictory statistics.
Translation: you have no contradictory statistics, and choose to engage in appeal to emotion through anecdote.
I would be devastated. That’s why I take appropriate precautions in my own home, and discipline my children and teach them appropriate firearms handling practices.
Who is dancing and singing in anyone’s blood, other than you? Every time you appeal to emotion by referencing anecdote to counter actual statistics, you are engaging in exactly that practice.
quote———————————-
Translation: you have no contradictory statistics, and choose to engage in appeal to emotion through anecdote.————————-quote————–
You only mention your own statistics which can be challenged by yet other statics depending on who conducted the surveys. But what is also important is that you avoided what the “Other Poster” mentioned and that is the accidental shootings that result in wounded and maimed people which if “Goggled” is easily seen to add up into a much, much higher figure. Again statistics taken right out of news reports and police reports that you cannot dodge, ignore or dance around. All do to a lack of governmental mandated safety training before applying for a weapon or a concealed permit which most other industrialized countries have already had for decades.
quote———————
Freedom is inherently risky and dangerous, because fallible humans are the ones engaging in it. The only way to reduce any given risk to zero is to restrict freedom far beyond anything even remotely reasonable.———————quote————————
Freedom is not absolute. The Constitution or any other legal document was never meant to be absolute. You constantly ignore the fact that training is given for every profession and in every country in the world that wants a civilized society. Walking over dead bodies may be acceptable to you but I on the other hand believe that training does indeed reduce the body count and sane people always strive to reduce that count to zero while you on the other hand claim that the body count can never be too high to inconvenience you to take a mandatory safety course for the acquiring of a license for concealed carry.
quote———————————-
Translation: you have no contradictory statistics, and choose to engage in appeal to emotion through anecdote.————————-quote————–
You only mention your own statistics which can be challenged by yet other statics depending on who conducted the surveys. But what is also important is that you avoided what the “Other Poster” mentioned and that is the accidental shootings that result in wounded and maimed people which if “Goggled” is easily seen to add up into a much, much higher figure. Again statistics taken right out of news reports and police reports that you cannot dodge, ignore or dance around. All do to a lack of governmental mandated safety training before applying for a weapon or a concealed permit which most other industrialized countries have already had for decades.
quote———————
Freedom is inherently risky and dangerous, because fallible humans are the ones engaging in it. The only way to reduce any given risk to zero is to restrict freedom far beyond anything even remotely reasonable.———————quote————————
Freedom is not absolute. The Constitution or any other legal document was never meant to be absolute. You constantly ignore the fact that training is given for every profession and in every country in the world that wants a civilized society. Walking over dead bodies may be acceptable to you but I on the other hand believe that training does indeed reduce the body count and sane people always strive to reduce that count to zero while you on the other hand claim that the body count can never be too high to inconvenience you to take a mandatory safety course for the acquiring of a license for concealed carry.
I live in the state as well and I guess you have never watched the news or been to downtown Charleston or even worse Huntington. Crimes are committed by pill heads in every county in the state and you never can tell when you might run into a mean dog that needs shooting. You are right in that a gun is a tool like any other. Some tools like a hoe or a deer rifle you don’t carry around unless you need them. Other tools like a pocket knife or a pocket pistol you carry around with you in case you need them. Also I really don’t care what you think when your thinking gets in the way of my rights.
I know Huntington and Charleston have bad spots. I have lived in both. But if its so terrible, then local ordinances could have addressed it, with waivers passed by the Legislature. State Wide? No. The potential for grief is too great. Everyone is armed at home. No need to carry at the rural grocery store or post office. And we both know, there are a lot of lunatics in the state; its our nature . Lots of poor self control. The concealed carry restrictions were so light, anyone could get them- if they didn’t have a record. But at least they had to listen (if not absorb) the legal ramifications. Now, even Felons will be carrying as the police can’t ask for a lic.; and the sheriff can’t weed them out. So it should be properly called, the Arm the Felons Act. And the poor judgment of other states will be carried over into WV. Great.
R
I guess you have some pretty law-abiding felons in WVa if they have been waiting for something like this to pass before they start (illegally, just like before the law passed) carrying guns. Seriously, how many criminals intent on actually using a firearm casually carry it around openly between “jobs”? You are pretty much echoing the hysterical “moms” here, you realize that?
Robert-
See the down thread response.
What funny about this is if you are from WV (and I have my doubts you are) then you would know how common open carry is in the state. WV is already very heavily armed yet we have none of the problems you say are going to come to pass. How long has WV been an open carry state? Quick look it up I’ll wait for you. When did this rash of bad outcomes take place? Oh and the only out of state money that came in state was from some rich man from NY. Probably the same guy that is paying you perhaps?
Looks like you better find a different state.
I don’t like open carry but I will support it just to make wilting flowers like “Ridge” go find a hugbox.
If you are a woman, live in such a dangerous place or live in so much fear ginned up by the NRA and gun manufacturers; go ahead and carry away. I live in an area that we had to fight the Indians, British, armed traitors, feuding families, corrupt local govt, strike breaking murdering coal company gun thugs, thousands of armed miners, trestle dynamiting strikers, and just all around crazy hillbillies. And I don’t live in fear.
But per this law-
Should someone who has proven unable to maintain a driver’s lic through drunkenness, foolishness or bad judgement be carrying a firearm in public without proving his capability and judgement through training and classes ? If you say yes, then are you prepared to give him jail time if you are proven wrong?
Shouldn’t someone carrying a firearm in public be able to hit a target? If they miss, and endanger the public, shouldn’t they be legally liable for their actions? If you answer yes, are you prepared to give him jail time?
Shouldn’t someone carrying a firearm be legally responsible for carrying and storing it safely and, if they prove they can’t, be legally liable? If you answer yes, are you prepared to give him jail time?
This absolutist attitude about firearms does more damage to the struggle for the 2nd Amend than any perceived plot by political opponents. This isn’t a Robert Heinlein story, this is real life and for every “responsible carry story”, there is a “irresponsible or just damn dumb” story. If you don’t hold the careless and stupid responsible, then you won’t gain respect for your position.
And for your information, this law is not universally liked in the state. If polled, 1/2 or a majority think it foolish. People I speak to think so, and I’m in the heart of the coal fields.
If you like to play army with military rifles, train like you are Delta Force or carry your Glock with no safety because you might need that microsecond before you dump the clip at a shadow; go ahead. For me, in this state, this law is potentially dangerous .
R
I’ll go ahead and say it–You would be safer, I guess, in Bed-Stuy? Guess what–potential danger is everywhere, you’re much more likely to be killed by someone else’s car than by a bullet. Using any reasonable definition of “mass shooting”, you’re more likely to be struck by lightning than be involved in one. Maybe you should just hide under the bed.
That is a straw man argument. I am addressing the law in WV, don’t give a damn any place else.
It solves NO current problem or address NO pressing issue. It was politically motivated by out of state right wing forces. Because of the massive firearm ownership in the state and the ease of carry permits, no one who could legally own a firearm was being denied or oppressed.
What it does mean is that people who could not pass the very lenient carry permit or were legally barred from doing so, will now carry firearms without the inconvenience of taking a class or appearing in the sheriff’s office. So when I see someone carrying a gun, I don’t know if they are a felon or not, where before I had the expectation that they had a lic.
R
No, it is not a straw man–or if it is, it is one of your own making. You are saying you don’t want people carrying guns without government regulation because it is “dangerous”. I am telling you, by example, that government strictly regulating the carrying of guns by the citizens does not make things less dangerous, and in fact can create more danger for citizens. Your “straw man” is the same “boogie man” the action-deprived moms are worried about; all those inbred, brain-deficient rednecks are going to start carrying guns everywhere and shooting the place up at the drop of a hat. The experience of less-regulated vs more regulated states puts the lie to your fears. And what’s with this “I don’t know if he’s a felon or not” crap? Under the current law, if you see someone walking down the street and don’t see a gun, you still don’t know whether he’s a felon or not–and you don’t know whether he’s armed or not, either. How is that better? Maybe you really should hide under the bed.
Actually yes, it does address an issue and solve a problem. It addresses the fact that our governing bodies have no authority to dictate who may or may not carry a firearm, or when they can and cannot carry it, or even what they may or may not carry. It is a step in the right direction to solve the problem of government overreach of our Constitutionally protected right to keep and bear arms.
Do you REALLY think that people who are legally barred from owning or carrying firearms are only now going to start carrying them because of this change in the law? Do you REALLY believe that they weren’t doing that before? Take a seat at the kid’s table, and really think that one through.
Your ignorance is absolutely astounding.
Protip: if you see someone carrying a holstered firearm, that person is not a felon.
Chip-
Real life tip.
Holsters cost money. Lots of guns sticking out of pockets and coats now. If you don’t have to bother taking a class or getting a lic, you can be sure you won’t bother buying a holster.
But thanks for the thought anyway.
Those people aren’t felons, either.
Felons hide their firearms, because it is illegal for them to possess them. If you see a firearm being carried, and not being brandished, the person carrying it isn’t a felon.
So, those people that you see, who are carrying without a holster: they all took your precious classes. How are those licensing requirements working out?
What kind of ass backwards logic is that??
I’ve never lived in a state that does not have Constitutional Carry. Thus, I’ve been carrying, legally, since the day I turned 18, and have never had a permit to do so. Nor have I ever paid money for a class to teach me about the laws concerning concealed carry and use of deadly force. But you can bet your ass I educated myself on my own time.
That said, I’ve spent several hundred dollars on different holsters over the years, trying to figure out what works for me. I’ve got dozens. Shelves full.
If you’re a Starist, you fear the freedom of the law-abiding exercising liberty. It’s what you do.
Statists gonna state. State on, Statist.
Ridge reminds me of another troll that used to comment here. Any mistake with a gun means jail time and a lifetime loss of 2a rights. Any mishap.
If he is a gun owner then he’s a master level fudd.
Not a troll but someone who thinks If you are man enough to carry a gun in WV, you are man enough to take responsibility for the bullets it fires, purposely or accidentally . If you can’t do that, don’t whine and go back to bbs.
Many here want the rights but ignore the responsibilities that go with those rights.
Do you think irresponsible / dangerous use or carry should be sanctioned or ignored? If sanctioned, how?
Too many cases of careless handling, storage or use of firearms happen every day. What do you, as an advocate of 2nd Amnd rights, do about it? I, as an advocate, say there should be strict consequences for those actions. What do you want to do, shrug your shoulders?
We do take responsibility for every shot we fire. And i started my gun carrying days in WV. The law states punishments for any accidents or negligence on our part.
But that’s not good enough for you. You’re one of thoe blood in the streets types. You support the 2a, but……
jmw-
I’m glad you take responsibility but that isn’t the national trend. Some are charged, many are not. If you are going to carry, then be responsible. just looking up “Walmart gun goes off” tells the tale.
Gun fall out of a guy’s pants in WalMart, wounds woman. No charges-
http://fox59.com/2014/05/27/woman-shot-after-gun-goes-off-inside-indiana-walmart-store/#
Concealed carry lic holder with gun in pack, drops pack in restaurant, gun goes off, no charges-
http://www.good4utah.com/news/local-wasatch-front-/a-gun-is-accidentally-discharged-inside-a-chipotle-in-sandy-gun-owner-not-cited
Others are charged with misdemeanors. But is that right? 12″ one way or the other and that misdemeanor becomes homicide. If you are going to carry, I argue such negligence is much more serious and should be treated as such. If you want consistent gun carry laws nationwide, then there should be consistent gun negligence laws enforced nationwide. 2nd Amd advocates should be at the forefront.
Sounds like you have a beef with the justice system. Have at it.