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(courtesy Bundy Family Facebook page)

No question: the “standoff” at the Bundy Family Ranch in Nevada is growing more tense with each passing hour, as media and militia pour into the area and the feds tool-up for an old-fashioned confrontation over grazing rights and cattle. It must be said (and was, kinda by our man Hyde earlier): the Bundy family is doing nothing to calm the situation and much to roil it. Earlier today, the Bundy family suggested the feds may have cut cell tower service to disrupt communications amongst their supporters. Now this from The Bundy Ranch’s Facebook page . . .

Ryan Payne one of the Main Militia who has been here protecting Cliven has reported it was HIS brother in law who reported the confiscating of weapons. This has been confirmed by Militia. If this happens to anyone else please call us or put it on blast, if you can get pictures, please do! Thank you for your support everybody!

We’re looking into it. IF – and that’s an all-caps IF – the feds are grabbing guns from Americans intent on defending the Bundys, the stakes in this conflict will be raised to ridiculous heights. As for whether or not the rancher’s beef with the feds over grazing rights is a just cause per se, let’s just say that’s not a hill I’d die on. Let’s hope no one does.

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344 COMMENTS

  1. Given the clear abuses of power already committed by our Federal government to date, it’s only a matter of time before the Feds screw the pooch Waco style.

    If not at the Bundy Ranch, it’ll be somewhere else.

    • We are working to get first hand confirmation on this claim.
      Also to DEBUNK, I am in contact with someone via cell phone who is at the Bundy ranch. So cell serivce is up, or at least for this persons provider.
      Sheriff Mac has texted back that he has not confirmed of confiscations, however I do not believe he is onsite at this time.
      I was on a call with Ryan Payne last night and we do know that BLM is not alone. Apparently DHS is there as well. They have an Apache helicopter at their staging site a few miles away. That was confirmed with eyes on intel directly from Ryan.
      There is rumor that a few hundred additional DHS are being deployed to the area. Then again at this point it is just RUMOR.
      I am guessing DHS is the one in the sniper positions. That would make sense. We are hearing that BLM has pulled back from the protest areas. Letting them protest in peace as it were.

        • And I thought the use of armored personnel carriers was excessive – an Apache! really!!? Thank God Nevada isn’t a coastal state or there might have been some coastal bombardment before the raid. Whats the range of a ship launched Tomahawk?

      • Ship launched tomahawk? They can launch one from Coronado bay in San Diego, and probably reach the ranch…. Range is around 1000 miles…

      • So you are suggesting that they have a AH-64 apache. Who the only user in the US is the United States Army. Nobody else flies them in the US government. Let’s get some pics of that. Cause that breaks a lot of rules right there. To suggest that the United States military is taking part in this without photo proof makes you guys sound like crazies.

    • Discontinuinng the program would be ridiculous, and that is our prime strike means for naval forces, other than aircraft. Destroyers and cruisers are built with around a hundred vertical launch cells each, and the TLAM is the primary offensive weapon for them. If that program is phased out, it would destroy our offensive strike ability. We can still use aircraft, but the tomahawk is the best means to hit targets in heavily defended areas…

    • Let’s not forget the first to die was a mere baby of less than a year old at Waco. Now we’ll talk Ruby Ridge where the “professional” shooter didn’t realize it was the man’s young daughter and his wife he was shooting at. See the pattern of NO accountability that has festered throughout the federal and local government ? Push back America, about 238 years…

  2. *unconfirmed* is not misinformation when it is stated as unconfirmed. Misinformation would be claiming they did when he didn’t know if they had.

  3. Just what hill is important enough for you to defend? This is how it’s always done. Divide people into groups and attack each group one at a time. The German people didn’t want to die on that hill defending Jews either. You’ve picked your side.

    • Not just a ‘land dispute’, this is Agenda 21! This same type of land grab also happening now in Texas, along the border, and in Colorado as well. This is the beginning of the end, so choose your side now. Millions of people have had more than enough intrusion and government corruption running rampant! If we don’t take our stand, now, together, there wont be anything left to stand for. I stand for the constitution, I stand for Bundy! I will defend that hill!

      • Let’s take a moment to look at what Agenda 21 intends to achieve. It proposes to make about 95% of America inaccessible to the American people, and under UN administration.

        Take it from there and INVESTIGATE.

        • Paul McCain : Don’t just be a smart ass, go on google and check out Agenda 21. It is real, people have been told they can’t replace a dam that washed out, because the water did not belong to them.

          • The government went after an Oregon man for collecting rainwater, saying it didn’t belong to him.

              • That is just crazy. Catch rainwater from your roof or directly into a catch basin or barrel and you have to pay the government for the water? I am used to alot of water where I live, and paying for rain water is so alien to me. We don’t own our own homes any longer since local governments can (and have) declared private homes to be “imminent domain” and the government takes that property and gives it to a developer to build condominiums or a shopping center.

                We need to get back control of our government. I will have a meeting in a few weeks with our mayor and there are some things I want to discuss with him….whew!

      • We own this land. How, pray tell does the government come in and confiscate 600,000 acres of land. I have read that the feds own 80% of Nevada. I have sided with the Bundys and freedom and the majority of people in this nation do.While I live let me have a country. A country that is free and stays out of my life and does not tell where to live, what to eat, who to vote for, who to serve, what God to have. No, I am ever mindful of the movie Braveheart where Mel Gibson told those people when the first battle came and they were mumbling, I didn’t come to di e. He said yes, you may live but when you are old and on your beds you will think I had one chance, one chance for freedom!. God did not make man to llive oppressed by the heavy hand of government but to live free.

        • Conservatives of every stripe had a chance for a different outcome, a less intrusive government, and more than four million of them refused to vote because they didn’t think Mitt Romney was perfect. But every one of those four million seems to have an anti-Obama HO after the election. Figure that one out. It makes me angry when the wild right comes out in force after not voting. I won’t name names but I’ll tell you that two of the most pro-Bundy comment writers (above and below) have repeatedly said in other posts that they didn’t and wouldn’t vote for Romney. I would laugh, but I’m too angry for that. What hypocrites.

        • Romney was against national legislation on health insurance, and thought the constitution left that power to the states. I agree. You apparently don’t. Fine.

          • Romney helped write Obamacare.

            The game is rigged; the Democrats and Republicans will NOT run real candidates.

        • The error is thinking Conservatives are on the side of Liberty. They’re not. They happily trash parts of the Constitution they don’t feel the need to adhere to when its contrary to their agenda. This includes gun rights (relevant to the forum), and while they might not be AS BAD as the socialist dingbats on the left, they can easily fill an Olympic swimming pool with their stupid. The only way to *shrink* Government is to go the Libertarian route. The route that ends subsidies, adheres to the constitution, ends intrusions of privacy, violations of individual liberties, and restores and self-reliant greatness that built America. Conservatives and Liberals are two sides of the same shitty, big government coin. The irony is largely on conservatives who have no problem using massive amounts of government to meddle in marriages, fund a pointless drug war, wasteful and idiotic defense spending, dismantling separation of Church and State and trying to legislate scientific facts in public schools.

        • It is striking, the extent to which the history of the federal government in the west is forgotten by some present day ranchers. I would include the Bundy’s in that group. Many of them picked up their first farm/ranch on federal land, thanks to the Homestead Act. As for the establishment of the federal grazing lease system, the ranchers fairly begged for such a system after the winter of 1886-87. But here, I’ll let someone else recite the history of of “The End of Open Range:”

          “The end of the open range was not brought about by a reduction in land due to crop farming, but by overgrazing. Cattle stocked on the open range created a tragedy of the commons as each rancher sought increased economic benefit by grazing too many animals on public lands that “nobody” owned. However, being a non-native species, the grazing patterns of ever-increasing numbers of cattle slowly reduced the quality of the rangeland, in spite of the simultaneous massive slaughter of American bison that occurred. The winter of 1886-1887 was one of the most severe on record, and livestock that were already stressed by reduced grazing died by the thousands. Many large cattle operations went bankrupt, and others suffered severe financial losses. Thus, after this time, ranchers also began to fence off their land and negotiated individual grazing leases with the American government so that they could keep better control of the pasture land available to their own animals.”

      • The rules about rainwater aren’t some federal plot. They’re based in the water-rights laws of the western states that have been in place for more than 100 years.

        In the west you don’t own the water that falls or flows onto your land. Who ever has the senior water rights owns the water.

        So patch your tinfoil mind-control helmets and find something new to make nonsensical noise about.

        • For the record, I don’t think you’re full of crap; I think you are spreading disinformation.

          The west is dotted with hundreds of thousands of cisterns and other catchments, such as artificial stock ponds. All are as 100% within the law as your statement is 100% disingenuous.

    • Why would anybody want to die in defense of some individual’s tantrum over restrictions imposed on his access to public lands for grazing his private herd? Raising livestock in the desert is stupid. If he wants to lead some kind of modern day Whiskey Rebellion over grazing “rights”, I’ll stick with the tyrannical General George Washington.

      And Agenda 21 is bullshit, too… you know what’s going to depopulate large parts of the American west over the next 40 years? Declining snow mass, drought, and all the water these ranchers and natural gas frac’ers are sucking out of the non-renewable aquifers like the Ogallala. But, of course, that’s all due to the tyranny of conservation, amirite?

      • All future wars will be fought over resources such as water and food. There was\is an idea among guerrillas, engage the enemy when you can win, live to fight another day. Choose your fight carefully patriots, the fight you can win and live to fight another day.

      • I agree with you. I’ve read the court documents for this case and the ranchers are in the wrong, firmly. A lot of their supporters are using this as a mirror to reflect their own causes and neuroses.

        • I am rancher and I think Bundy is an absolute disgrace to our community. Bundy does not have a permit…there are thousands of permit holders across the nation grazing on Federal Land in accordance with the law and paying their dues.. Bundy is stealing from every single person in this country…and to think there are idiots on their way, locked and loaded, to help this clown.

      • The earth changes, all the time, never ending. Water sources dry up, earthquakes and volcanoes sunder or bury cities, this shit happens and has happened since civilization began and is responsible for many an empire’s decline. Sahara has gone from desert to grassland and back again in the span of 200 years every few thousand years. Conservation of resources up to a point is responsible. But starving resources for some JOKE of sustainability is irresponsible. Ya people could die of drought in a decade from the current rate, but when people are dying now because of “conservation” what exactly is the point? The sooner things dry up the sooner people move on. Welcome to nature. Global warming scare tactics bullshit need not apply here in the real world. The Earth will not end up like Venus, not by our doing anyway…

    • So you’re saying any time anyone says they have a grievance against the government we should all be on board with them, regardless of our beliefs, or… hitler?

      • Yes, Hannibal, we should all agree with Brady, a long-known rabidly anti-government loon, who, unlike his neighbors, demands access to the property of the USA with no strings attached.

        And if you do not support him, you are obviously a statist, a gun-grabbing, socialist, Obama-loving demonrat!

        Dontcha know.

        : )

    • As I recall, the United States, including most ranchers, didn’t want to step in on the Jews’ behalf either. It wasn’t until the Germans started in on the French and the British and an American ship was sunk, that the U.S. entered WWII.

        • Dude, I’ve already tolled it three times. Is your browser even refreshing the thread?
          My favorite, obviously, is to use Nazi as a homonym for “not see,” but I suppose that’s really a fake Godwin’s Law invocation…

          That ranchers weren’t too keen, the Western states, to join WWII, is simply a historical truth worth recalling. Lindberg. America Firsters. So much for hills and Jew saving, eh?

      • I don’t know about the rest of that, but I’m pretty sure we entered WWII after the Japanese attacked us at Pearl Harbor and then declared war on the Germans after they declared war on us. France had already fallen and Britian had been fighting for more than two years.

        • A war in Europe is great for ranchers, it pushed crop prices right up (all those Europeans fighting each other on their best farmland, which also happens to be the best tank country, and lots of imports sinking at sea after meeting Mr Submarine)

          Actually joining in with the war, now that’s a different matter…

      • You mean WWI right, minus the Jews anyway. Well US entered WWI after Germany was caught trying to convince Mexico to declare war on the US on behalf of the Central powers. America entered World War 2 after Pearl Harbor… I think you should get a history book out and read it thoroughly, the teacher’s union vomitorium of liberal bullshit aka public schools, clearly have failed you.

  4. Well, here’s an inflammatory statement from a state(ist) official.

    “Clark County Commissioner Tom Collins has caused outrage by remarking that Utahns planning to travel to Nevada to support Cliven Bundy in his standoff against the feds “better have funeral plans”.

    “I See A Bad Moon Rising” is playing in the south west.

  5. Every hill, when any of our sacred rights are at stake, is a hill worth dying on. The hope is that nobody has to in order for We, The People to re-secure it. I’ll be watching this space.

    • Private ranching on public land is a right? Interesting. I suppose you oppose Obamcare, too, because nobody has a right to health care.

      • Actually I oppose Obamacare because it’s a dumbass idea. Here’s why:

        1. 16,000 new IRS agents were hired. A good plan would’ve hired 16,000 new doctors and nurses.
        2. The law is ridiculously complicated – 2500 pages with roughly 15,000 pages of additions.
        3. You can’t keep your current doctor.
        4. You can’t keep your current plan.
        5. It costs more.
        6. It adds additional bureaucracy, and our nation already has too much.
        7. Some are exempted, some pay fines for not purchasing an inferior, overpriced product.
        8. Apparently the idiotic failures (such as the individual mandate) and deadlines can be delayed at the discretion of the president and his cronies with little or no accountability
        9. The proponents of the bill – particularly Obama and the Democratic party – controlled Senate – are not actually using Obamacare.

        We need a market based, patient centric healthcare system where users don’t need to buy more insurance than they need. Also, tort reform to mitigate legal expenses. Lets pay doctors and nurses – the lawyers of this nation (many of whom have gone on to be politicians) are already making too damn much money, and our nation is suffering for it.

        • Nice. I agree. Obamacare forced the cancellation of my nice “Gold Plated” insurance that suited the family just fine. Now we’re in a welfare pool paying for birth control and some other things we don’t need. It’s not insurance. It’s a welfare program. Only “the rich” aren’t paying for it. The general taxpayer is, and those who used to buy their own insurance. I’ve signed up for another policy in Europe, in case I really needs some serious care. Obamacare did nothing to bring down healthcare costs. It was just a ruse to get the the insured to pay for the uninsured without fixing the pharmaceutical or surgical costs in the U.S. I’d rather pay cash in Sweden or Germany for serious health care.

          • Your posting about cancellation of insurance is similar to what my family and I have endured. It was fine for us for 30 years, but had to be canceled so we would pay for things that we will never need. Our co-payments have doubled, our deduction has triples, and our premium is now 50 percent more.

        • I would add:

          10) We already know what government run healthcare in the US looks like. It’s called the VA, and it sux.

      • Seems you are about 150 years from catching up. Do some research on how ranching is really done. You have no idea what you’re talking about.

        • I’ve read whatever I can find on the Johnson County War. I’ve raised animals, Kronjört, but not in the U.S. I know how ranching in the west began. Let’s talk about the WSGA and its New York and Boston financiers. Perfectly on-topic.

      • Actually, you’re right. Nobody has a right to the labor of another individual, even if that labor comes in the form of medical practice.

        Budny’s objection is to the involvement of the federal government, which he contends is not lawful. He pays the county for the grazing rights because that’s the agreement his family made with the county to graze on their land. What he rejects is the federal claim to ownership of that land.

      • Health care is a service provided by someone else. Unless you pay that person in some way for their time, you DO NOT HAVE any right to healthcare.
        Is logic truly so dead, or are you are you truly so lazy as to assume its a right so that you don`t need to earn your way ?

    • You do realize that Bundy is stealing a resource from the American People correct? He needs to get a grazing permit or go buy some private land to ranch on. If We The People let the Bundy’s of the world do whatever the hell they want whats to stop him from grazing cattle in Yellowstone? The National Mall? Hell….lets just let him graze any where he wants…for FREE!!! And Lord forbid we call him out and make him accountable!?

      • Hmmm, cattle grazing on public land. I feel a huge financial loss. Thank God the government stepped in.

        /sarc

        • Well hell…lets just go put cattle in Yellowstone or on the National Mall! Lets have absolutely no regards for law and order. While we are at it lets let Bundy put up a little bunkhouse on top of Mount Rushmore….

          It’s the principle of the matter…something that is lacking in this Country.

        • You should feel it as a financial loss.
          Grazing fees don’t return money to the program and what they can’t make up for in fees is made up by diverting tax dollars to the land management programs.

          “The complex formula used to calculate the BLM and Forest Service fee for grazing on their lands incorporates factors that consider ranchers’ ability to pay; the purpose of the fee is therefore not primarily to recover the agencies’ expenditures or to capture the fair market value of forage. These factors that adjust the fee resulted in a difference of almost $115 million between grazing receipts and agencies’ expenditures on grazing activities in fiscal year 2004. BLM and the Forest Service would have had to charge $7.64 per AUM and $12.26 per AUM, respectively, to recover these expenditures in 2004.”

          http://www.westernwatersheds.org/reports/GAO-grazing-report-2005.pdf
          http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/prog/grazing.html

        • @Thomas,

          Let me be clear (you still like that phrase, right?): cattle grazing on land where they’ve been grazing for hundred of years. I’m not feeling much loss. Where I am feeling loss:

          1. 17,000,000,000,000 of national debt
          2. Constant attacks on my 1st, 2nd, 4th, and 5th Amendment rights
          3. About 2500 guns illegally shipped to Mexico by the US government
          4. Paying too much in taxes
          5. Those who are too lazy to work still getting paid
          6. IRS targeting conservative groups
          7. Paying the Federal government to spy on me
          8. Promises of more government accountability unrealized
          9. Kerry signing the US Arms Trade Treaty
          10. The Federal government doing a terrible job of protecting the US – Mexico border
          11. Wasting another $282 billion in “smart gun” tech
          12. Blocking the Keystone pipeline which would lower the cost of US gas and create jobs
          13. A ridiculous and expensive over abundance of Federal SWAT Teams and agencies
          14. Shipping guns to Syrian rebels is ok but mine will be delayed because of a background check issue.

          I could go on but I’ll leave it at that. Let’s just say that the American taxpayer with a triple digit IQ or more has a host of reasons to be suspicious of the whole .gov Federal government compliance machine. If you’re dumb enough to think that the government has your safety and welfare as its top priority you are free (other than paying too much in taxes) to continue living with that delusion.

      • Thomas..try and do some reading. The grazing fees have been paid to the county. Have been for years. The change up is that BLM has decided that they own the land and the money must go to them.Screw previous agreements.

    • What I find odd is this, that ranchers are talking about how they’ve paid, but no one is offering any detail. For example, tonight on “Greta,” Fox News, a Utah rancher was interviewed over the phone. He claimed that ranchers had paid “hundreds of thousands, millions, then had to pay a fee every year, even though they had bought or inherited the grazing rights.”

      That is a completely incoherent statement. What did they “buy”? How can grazing rights on federal land be inherited? Who paid millions and when? I have no idea whether there is or isn’t underlying truth to the claims. I absolutely expect to see some numbers, dates, and documents, before I believe the statement is true. We are not talking ancestral rights (such as Aleut fishing rights) that predated the coming of Europeans. We are talking about people setting up ranches well after the United States became the owner of that land.

      It was, after all, the cavalry and “flying artillery” of the U.S. Army that liberated that land from Mexico, drove Indians off, exterminated the Comanche (among others) and took ownership of the land. In short, the land was won fair and square by conquest, which certainly was how Indians, Spaniards, and every other nation or folk gained title to land back then. (It is still mildly fashionable. Ask Putin or the Chinese.)

      • @Thomas: Doesn’t ANYBODY know anything about ranching in the West? If you’d done any, you might have found that about 700 head of cattle ACTUALLY GRAZE in Yellowstone….

      • Apparently you attended a school that did not teach you much history. There are and have been laws on the books dating back before Nevada was a state, let alone other states. Territorial law and federal law both allowed for free range grazing. As the land became populated in the Westward Expansion, a great many “range wars” were settled by the military and the laws were clarified. Laws are now and have been in place defining what free range is and those ranges can be leased to ranchers for grazing purposes by the local authorities.The Bundy’s have lawfully held those grazing rights since the 1860’s, Their ranch value is based not only on their livestock and privately held lands, but also on those grazing leases.

        So yes, laws have been in place since before the federal government had control of the property in the form of “common law and practices” as well as local and territorial jurisdictions.

        • Texas Dan: I understand how grazing rights work. I know the system of Grazing District councils. I do not understand your apparent assertion that those rights are “owned.” They are leases. The Bundy’s do not have a lease. Yes, grazing rights adjacent to a ranch greatly increase the ranch’s value, especially in remote areas for which cattle raising is the only economic value to the property. That rise in value is contingent, and buyers of ranches understand that. Therefore when shopping for a ranch the estimated value does not take the expected net present value of the current on-lease grazing rights, but a discounted rate to the extent the grazing leases are in any way at risk.

          None of those realities provide ownership rights in the lease. As for the grazing law locally “on the books” before statehood, they did not survive statehood in Nevada. Certainly the state of Nevada is free to permit “open grazing” on land it owns, of course. This is settled law. Why do you think no one understands it, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 9th Circuit, for example?

        • You and others repeatedly assert that if some rancher was permitted, during the territorial period, to graze on land he did not own, then he established a right which endures. That simply isn’t the case. The history of ranching and range wars is not lost in the haze of time gone by. Changes did occur, though. A state (as to its land) or the federal government (for its land) has the right to alter conditions attached to the use of the land. This fact (you so love facts, yes?) is the essence of the phrase “the rancher did not own the land.” Permissive free range, hopefully in cooperation with other neighboring ranchers, provided no ownership or “right,” except in the loose sense that such use was legal that year. To twist it into something more is counter-factual.

          • THERE ARE NO “neighboring ranchers!”
            Can’t you READ? He had 58 neighboring ranchers; HE’S THE LAST ONE.

            Enjoy your $250 steaks.

  6. Saw that coming a mile away. When they can’t win with the illegal position they take, then they take away your guns.

  7. If shots are fired, it won’t matter who fired them. The feds will roll in, eliminate all witnesses and claim the Bundy crowd started it.

    • And it will be true. The Bundy’s could simply stand down and end the whole thing. Instead, they have dreams of martyrdom.

      • Whatever. How about you just snap that slave collar on around your neck and go back to your reality tv.
        Or do you not get breaks on that Federal paycheck as you troll ? The real crime is your lack of critical thinking.

  8. Nevada is an open carry state. Nevada also honors the CCWs from 15 other states. You can also carry a rifle or handgun in national parks in Nevada as long as you are not entering the federal buildings in the parks. I don’t see how anyone’s guns can be confiscated legally. The ACLU needs to be involved, as does the NRA, the GOA and other similar organizations.

    • I still find it sad that we need a third party organization to keep the government, who’s job it is to maintain our rights, from taking our rights.

      • And THAT’s the crux of the problem we have with the government, especially under this current administration, isn’t it?!

  9. I don’t understand your position on this, Robert. Does the Bundy family not have the right to seek public support for their cause?

    • They have a right to instigate rebellion and violence, and the Federal Government has the obligation to put an end to it. In fact, the Federal Government can call up these “well regulated” redneck militias and conscript them into putting down the revolt. (Heads implode)

    • Their “cause”? You mean the theft of resources? Our resources? If people die over this the blood is on Bundy’s hands….

  10. Those of you looking for “confirmed information” in the age of NSA and GCHQ spying will be sorely dissapointed.

    People to this day still can’t concretely determine what happened at Waco, and that was back in 1993! Today, if something pops off at Bundy Ranch, the cover story will hit MSNBC and affiliates before the last casing touches the dirt. The only people who will know the truth will either be dead or bound by a US Government NDA.

    • “can’t concretely determine”? Just about the entire thing is on video! Your discernment is all that is required for the determination.

      • You misunderstand my intent.

        The truth is ,like most things, plain to see. We all can determine that Brian Terry died from a bullet fired from a gun transferred via US Government assistance to his killer. The trick is finding the document which proves it. And that’s just not gonna happen in our current political climate.