Lake City Ammunition Plant
Lake City Ammunition Plant (courtesy US Army)
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Apparently not content with its efforts so far to make gun ownership more difficult and expensive for America’s 100 million firearm owners, a source tells TTAG that the Biden administration is taking steps to reduce the availability of .223/5.56 ammunition available to the average shooter.

A person with knowledge of the situation tells us that, more than just “considering” the move, Winchester, which operates the US Army’s Lake City ammunition plant, has been informed that it may be blocked from selling M855 and SS109 ammunition produced in excess of the military’s needs on the civilian market.

How would that affect the civilian supply of .223 and 5.56 ammunition? We understand that as much as 30% of the commercial market’s sales volume of .223/5.56 is produced by Lake City.

Standard capacity ar-15 magazines

The motivation here is obvious. The Biden administration is attempting to further spike the price of ammunition, squeezing the owners of America’s favorite rifles…the scary black ones that the president assures us are only good for killing people and taking down Kevlar vest-wearing deer.

Let’s face it. Even the hapless Biden administration must realize that they don’t have any realistic prospect of getting another “assault weapons” ban through the Senate. Instead, they’re doing the next best thing. They’re trying to make shooting most AR-15 rifles as expensive as possible for Americans who own between 20 and 25 million AR platform guns.

We’ve reached out to Winchester for a statement on the Biden administration’s move, but haven’t received a response yet. We’ll updated this post when we do.

In the mean time, it’s just possible that the Biden gang may have shot themselves in the foot (metaphorically speaking, of course) with this ploy. John Cornyn and Chris Murphy pulled out all of the stops to hammer out a compromise deal in the Senate that got 10 Republicans to sign on. They announced it with great fanfare this past the weekend.

Now, as the actual legislation is being written around that deal framework, the Biden clown car crashes right into the middle of things with a heavy-handed maneuver that’s sure to further anger tens of millions of gun owners less than five months from the election.

Will the ten GOP Senators who agreed to the Cornyn/Murphy deal stay on board now? Possibly. Maybe even probably. But the administration’s ham-handedness here can’t make it any easier for the bipartisan ten to maintain their resolve in the face of a snake-belly-low move by the ostensible leader of the Democrat party.

This is a developing story. Stay tuned.

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  1. Wouldn’t it be nice if gun and ammo manufacturers and sellers would refuse to do business with any and all gov’t agencies/employees?


      • I wonder how long it would take the government to get that plant running again if Winchester just walked away from the deal, taking all their trained personnel with them. The feds don’t have people with the know how to just step in and start it back up, and that is a rather specialized skill set, you’re not going to Labor Ready for temps to fill in.

        • Longer than the couple of days it would take for them to utterly and completely destroy Winchester.

        • another question is how profitable is it to run the plant without selling surplus and how the price will look to run it next time it is up for bid.

        • Andrew Lias asks the real question.

          The Lake City contract is obviously attractive to any and all of the ammo manufacturers. How attractive is that contract, if the contractors are not permitted to sell the surplus that government won’t buy?

          Government may have shot itself in the foot – or maybe even the thigh.

        • How many people have been killed with green tip SS109 / M855 ammo? Probably close to zero. LOL

          But … the gov doesn’t want you to have ammo that has a steel core, because they don’t trust you.

        • I think Winchester is doing just fine!

          Order 500 rounds of Winchester USA Green Tip 5.56 ammo from GrabAGun today. Each round of the Winchester USA 5.56 ammo is loaded with 62 grain full metal jacket projectiles and brass casings. With a muzzle velocity of 3,060 feet per second, this ammunition is celebrated for its accuracy and performance. Get bulk ammo and 5.56 ammo for sale online from GrabAGun today!“

        • It would be gratifying to watch. Unfortunately the feds and the state govts can squash any business in the nation like a bug along with the banks they use and anyone who does business with them. What needs to be reined in is the government’s unlimited power over business.

        • Winchester runs it but the employee’s are government.
          Management has changed several times over the decades.
          This is one of several government owned munitions plants operated by or for the government.

        • Most employees are roll-overs from the last contractor, and the one before that, and so on. No one would really just roll out with Winchester, although it is a nice thought. We need our jobs just like any other honest, hard working American. Much more than just bullet makers at this plant…Sooo many skill sets involved. We have unions and contracts, etc… we made it thru Nobama’s attempts, we’ll make it thru this too, hopefully.

      • True and I’ll bet that this move violates the terms of the contract Winchester has with the Government.

        • Assuming that’s the case, what difference does it make unless Winchester is willing to simply ignore Biden?

          None. It will be quite some time until a court rules in Winchester’s favor, by which time the desired damage is done.

        • Rather like shutting down pipeline construction, drilling of oil wells,…………………………….

      • Winchester operates the plant on a contract that says they can sell off any production above what the military buys.

        If the Biden administration wants Winchester to stop selling Lake City ammo they will have to either renegotiate the contract, or buy all the M855 that Winchester Produces — ammo that the military doesn’t need and will have to buy and store or sell/give to some other country.

        • “If the Biden administration wants Winchester to stop selling Lake City ammo they will have to either renegotiate the contract, or buy all the M855 that Winchester Produces — ammo that the military doesn’t need and will have to buy and store or sell/give to some other country.”

          Kinds, sorta, maybe….not actually.

          Government contracts carry all the provisions necessary for terminating a contract. Any “negotiations” regarding “terms” of the contract are done before contract signing. Subsequent modifications may need to be negotiated, but not always (a provision inserted into the original contract, or later contract modification (“amendment”).

          Winchester ain’t Hansel and Gretel, tiptoeing through the woods. Unlike most of us, both the government and the contractor read all the “fine print”.

        • All the surplus could go to ‘the Ukraine’ conflict being bought with our tax dollars. I read a recent article that stated ammo was in short supply, but are they using 223/5.56 or 7.62×39?

          Don’t know.. but I do know the .gov will screw things up.

        • Manse, both AND 5.45×39 as well. You can add 7.62 as one of the Baltic states has been providing surplus M14s.

          Ukraine adopted a M4 variant in 5.56, but they have upper receivers in 7.62×39 to use the old ammo in training.

        • There is no real legal principle called “renegotiation” of a contract. We assume that the contract stipulates that Winchester can sell all ammo they produce beyond the Government’s specified needs, on the commercial market. That is certainly one element Winchester counted on when they negotiated the contract. If the Government now prevents Winchester from exercising an element of the contract, they have breached the contract. Winchester, therefore, is not obligated to continue producing ammo there.
          Neither the Government nor Winchester wants this to happen. I suspect neither Biden nor his goons understand government contract law. By now either Winchester or the Government contract administrators or both have advised the White House cabal how this contract works. The Government could terminate the contract for the Convenience of the Government, but would have to compensate Winchester for most of the profits they would have made if the contract had continued. They would then have to find another ammo company who would agree to operate the plant without the commercial sales provision. Ammo would then likely cost more. Winchester would then end up producing enough .223/5.56 ammo on their own to satisfy the commercial demand, thereby thwarting the Government’s attempt to limit this type ammo.

        • Our enemies would rather take more of our money, to make more ammo, and throw it into the ocean, than let honest patriotic Americans have weapons.

          Biden (and more importantly the people who control him) aren’t just incompetent. They are deeply evil, hating God, and haring us.

        • Diksum,

          The Government could terminate the contract for the Convenience of the Government, but would have to compensate Winchester for most of the profits they would have made if the contract had continued.

          And fedzilla would be just fine with that–being all too happy to print even more money to throw away.

          Along the same lines, fedzilla would also dare Winchester to sue fedzilla for that provision of the contract–informing Winchester that it will be impossible for Winchester to find a federal court who is sympathetic to their position.

          And not to put too fine a point on it: even if Winchester sues and a federal court sides with Winchester, the federal bureaucracy will simply refuse to remit payment at which point Winchester is screwed. As President Andrew Jackson famously said in response to an 1832 U.S. Supreme Court decision, “John Marshall [Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court] has made his decision; now let him enforce it.”

          Fedzilla has not been our friend for the last 50+ years although fedzilla largely put on a nice face and publicly pretended to be our friend. At this point fedzilla is no longer even pretending to be our friend.

        • uncommon_sense,
          Regarding your last paragraph, I think Trump’s election sped up the inevitable removal of fedzilla’s mask. I’m not sure if that’s a good thing or a bad thing.

        • They could just give it to me! I’m willing to collude! Of course, I’d then sell my surplus …

        • The government always puts a clause that they can change the terms of the agreement when in the best interest of the government.

        • In the right courthouse, a stay of compliance with this illegal directive could induce Winchester to produce nothing but excess ammo, and flood the market. But I’m sure Biden has a buyer, in Afghanistan.

        • There will be changes coming to 5.56mm production at Lake City. With introduction of the new round and stocking up on it (new production line) stocking and usage of 5.56 will decrease.

          100% our ammo bunkers are massively understock right now. And Ukr begging for supplies. (we have not even BEGUN to replace the Stingers and Javelins we have ship to them/OUR contingency larder has to be bare).

        • “…or give to another country.”
          F Me they’re going to send every round that plant makes and then some to damn Ukraine, at our expen$e.

        • “Well, then maybe they need to Walk out.”


          As of this moment, we have no evidence jobs will be lost?

      • Also, lets “We the people” call Winchester and tell them this is unacceptible, that if they case to this, then “We the people” should boycott Winchester. Lets get their attention through the pocket book!

      • I don’t think he understands how the economy works.

        1-If Lake City makes it but doesn’t sell it, there will just be a glut waiting for him to leave office.
        2-If Lake City Makes it, but sells it outside the U.S. Ammo is a world market, so that frees up European Ammo makers to make and sell 5.56 and export it to the U.S. Civilian market.
        3- If Lake City just doesn’t make the ammo, that frees up components (Primers) for other manufacturers

        Lastly, whatever he does, he is assuring a thriving market for every 5.56 maker that ISN’T Lake City.

    • I’m sure that they’ll just switch to M193 when they have production time surplus to government needs. They produce a lot of it now.

    • I am an FFL and I refuse to sell to the police until my state removes the exemption from state-level gun control for the police.

    • The many international company’s that manufacture ammo will greatly appreciate the loss of a major compotator.

    • Still floggin’ that dead horse… Never any proof, but keep drinking that Koolaid.

      • avatar Geoff "A day without an obsessed, obviously brain-damaged and mentally-ill demented troll (who deserves to live in New Jersey) PR

        Still hanging around where you’re not wanted, Pee Geee Two?

        Thinking you’re so smart making up single-use user names?

        What an angry little boy you still are! (Very little, if you know what I mean… *wink* 🙂 )

        • Geoff – On a totally non-related subject – It’s hotter than balls today. We are in for a brutal summer.

        • “It’s hotter than balls today.”

          Ugly hot… 🙁

          This summer is gonna suck. 🙁

          P. Jr – It’s Florida. The rain cools for a moment, and then steams you to death… 🙁

    • “Stolen elections have consequences.“

      If you have actual evidence that the election was stolen, you really should provide that to President Trump’s attorneys.

      I would say Rudy Giuliani and Sydney Powell as well as Jenna Ellis would be very appreciative of that evidence, otherwise it appears they are going to be disbarred for fraudulent court filings.

      • You mean ASIDE from the hundreds of sworn affidavits claiming fraud, and the fact that several key states changed election rules at the last minute, in violation of state and federal constitutions? Governors cannot unilaterally change election laws. Secretaries of State cannot unilaterally change elections laws. Nonetheless, that is EXACTLY what happened in 2020!

        • “hundreds of sworn affidavits claiming fraud“

          Anyone can swear they heard a rumor, that’s not evidence. And trumps attorneys had 62 opportunities to present solid evidence in local, state, federal circuit & appeals and United States Supreme Court and their filings were found without merit, and even fraudulent.

          “several key states changed election rules“

          The Republican legislature in Pennsylvania changed the law to allow more mail in voting and now are claiming their own law is unconstitutional, priceless!

          “A mail-in voting law is under attack by Pennsylvania GOP lawmakers who passed it
          Updated May 17, 20222:00 PM ET
          Heard on All Things Considered“

          “It once had the backing of almost every Republican lawmaker in Pennsylvania’s GOP-controlled legislature.

          But after expanding mail-in voting to all voters in the key swing state, Pennsylvania’s Act 77 is now under challenge by a group of GOP state representatives who are suing to throw out the 2019 law they helped pass.“

          Hilarious, the Republicans change the rules to allow more mail in ballots, but when their candidate loses suddenly it’s time to move the goal posts.

          Hypocrisy, thy name is Republican.

        • “Watch “2000 Mules” you simpleton/moron prog”

          The convicted felon adulterer produced movie?

          I just watched Donald Trump‘s United States Attorney General William Barr testify under oath that the 2000 mules movie was “unimpressive” and that the “premise was indefensible”.

          So come on, pony up, let’s see your real evidence. You claim 2000 mules, name one. Yes, just name one of your 2000 mules so we can verify your evidence.

          You people are supporting a seditious conspiracy, so what does that make you…

          “William Barr mocks ‘2000 Mules’ movie during Jan. 6 hearing, a film Sen. Mike Lee claimed had merit.
          Former Attorney General William Barr said the film ‘failed to deliver’ on claims of ballot trafficking, while Lee said the movie raised ‘significant questions’ of the 2020 election

          “By Bryan Schott
          | June 13, 2022, 5:02 p.m.
          | Updated: 5:08 p.m.

          During Monday’s House select committee hearing on the Jan. 6 attack on the U.S. Capitol, former Trump administration Attorney General William Barr discredited a conspiracy-driven film that makes dubious claims about widespread fraud in the 2020 election. Barr’s rebuke of the “2000 Mules” comes only days after Sen. Mike Lee gave a tacit endorsement of the film, which other Utah Republicans have shown at campaign events.

          In the film “2000 Mules,” conservative pundit Dinesh D’Souza theorizes that non-profit groups paid volunteers — who are compared to drug “mules” — in five states to “harvest” hundreds or even thousands of ballots in 2020 and deposit them into ballot boxes. The film uses anonymized cell phone data to track when people came near those drop-off points, which allegedly backs up D’Souza’s claim.

          The film claims “ballot trafficking” was widespread enough to rig the 2020 election for Joe Biden.

          In taped testimony, Barr says he watched the film with an open mind, but it failed to deliver on those claims, even chuckling when he brought up the movie.

          “My opinion is that the election was not stolen by fraud, and I haven’t seen anything since the election that changes my mind on that, including the ‘2000 Mules’ movie,” the former attorney general said during his testimony.

          Barr called the analysis of the data in the film “singularly unimpressive.”
          “The premise, if you go by five boxes or whatever it was, that that’s a mule is just indefensible. The photographic evidence was lacking. It didn’t establish widespread harvesting,” Barr said.

          “If you take two million cell phones and figure out where they are physically in a big city like Atlanta or wherever, just by definition, you’re going to find many hundreds of them have passed by and spent time in the vicinity of these boxes. The premise that’s a ‘mule’ is just indefensible,” Barr added.“

        • You can’t have it both ways.

          Either government is ineffective and incompetent, or it’s able to hide and keep quiet the thousands of people needed to shift a nationwide elections, where each county is in charge of it’s own election process.

          I’m going with #1.

          Trump is whiny @$$ cry-baby charlatan fraudster, and way too many Americans fell for his carney barker theatrics. MANY of Trumps policies were popular with American citizens. If he was just half way competent, he’d still be president. But he can’t stand for the spot light to be off of himself for one second. He thrives on the drama.

        • to AR Libertarian
          It’s now a year later. And the Twitter files have completely exposed the willing cooperation of private multi-billion-dollar communication companies, with elected Democrats,working to destroy the First Amendment rights of mostly conservatives. And anyone else that they don’t like.

          And the Libertarians are still saying these are private companies they can do whatever they want. Libertarian philosophy is a joke. But it has helped people to be able to legalize marijuana and shooting up crystal meth in public. Without fear of arrest. The Libertarians only care about “soft rights”.

      • I agree that the election wasn’t stolen. I think Democrats are just really that dumb to elect him.

        • “Is “2000 Mules” fact or fiction?“

          I can tell you that the producer of the documentary is a Republican of the highest character with impeccable credentials:

          “September 23, 2014
          Dinesh D’Souza Sentenced in Manhattan Federal Court to Five Years of Probation for Campaign Finance Fraud

          Preet Bharara, the United States Attorney for the Southern District of New York, announced today that DINESH D’SOUZA was sentenced in Manhattan federal court to five years of probation, with eight months during the first year to be served in a community confinement center, after having pled guilty to violating the federal campaign election law by making illegal contributions to a United States Senate campaign in the names of others. D’SOUZA was sentenced today before U.S. District Judge Richard M. Berman.“

          “Conservative activist Dinesh D’Souza resigned as president of evangelical The King’s College in New York City on Thursday (Oct. 18) amid a scandal involving a relationship with a woman who is not his wife.
          D’Souza has scandalized the evangelical Christian world by pursuing the relationship openly with a woman he called his fiancé, while still married to his wife of several decades. D’Souza and his wife, Dixie, have been separated for two years and have filed for divorce.“

          Truly, Donald Trump surrounds himself with only the “best people”!

      • I don’t see any correlation between the question, “Is 2000 Mules” fact or fiction and the response from Miner49er. However an attack on the character of Dinesh D’Souza is evident. I don’ know that Mr D’Souza’ past mistakes influenced the legitimacy of the documentary “2000 Mules”.

        • “Mr D’Souza’ past mistakes”

          So the fact he is a convicted felon because he lied on federal campaign reports has no impact on his credibility?

          And the fact that Donald Trump‘s handpicked Attorney General William Barr completely dismissed Desousa’s claims as “indefensible” means nothing?

          I understand you don’t give a shit about his adultery, Trump has admitted he committed adultery three times and pays porn stars $10,000 to fuck him while his third wife is at home with a new baby so character doesn’t really matter to you conservatives.

          But surely to goodness, out of 2000 mules you can name one, just one.
          Name one of the mules so we can investigate and determine if there’s any truth to the allegations, I await your speedy reply.

  2. IIRC four of the 10 Senators in question are retiring and the rest are not up for reelection this cycle.

    I doubt this moves the needle in our favor.

    • Flood them with calls and emails anyways.

      If you’re from a pro-2A state, call your local assemblymen to recommend state laws thaf would nullify fedgov misbehavior.

      Set them straight as best you can.

    • 11. I think it’s more effective to call YOUR senators and demand
      1: They move for Mitch McConnell be removed from his leadership position for violating promises he was elected to that position under
      2: They move to strip McConnell and the other ten turncoats of their committee positions for the same

      Make their actions have consequences.

    • Well, I will certainly remember Cornyn next time he runs. Not saying I’ll vote against him, but he will have some explaining to do. Specifically, since there would be no chance of a bill of any description passing without Republicans, what exactly did gunowners get for their signing on to this unconstitutional bill?

      I have to say, though, I do not believe any bill will actually pass both houses and be signed by His Royal Doofusness.

  3. watch major manufacturers follow suit….


    • 10min until the progs shutdown imports from IMI. They HATE Israel and dem jew.

      If you’re not already stocked up you’re WRONG.

  4. An opportunity for another company to expand or even a new company to start up. 30% of a market is a large chunk. Somebody will fill that gap.

    • There’s a brand-new primer plant coming online, perhaps a new brass plant may get announced by some intrepid folks… ?

      • Cripes, I *hates* commenting on TTAG using an iPhone!


        A strong decision by the SCotUS written by Thomas could jump-restart the carry (and general) gun market enough that someone might shit the cash to open a brass plant. There’s that new Texas plant that should be cranking out primers, in the long run, them doing this might be as effective as pissing in the wind.

        And, another administration can just erase that EO, anyways.

        Who knows? 🙁

        • You mean like the Fed judges totally allowed Trump to erase Obummer’s DACA EO via his own EO?

          Leftist politicians, congresscritters, and even judges don’t play by fair rules.

    • jwm,

      I hope you are right; I fear you are wrong. Especially given the up front capital costs of getting into the bulk ammo manufacturing business, the uncertainty around firearms in general, and the propensity of “big banking” to shaft legitimate businesses that aren’t “politically correct”, I’m not sure I’d bet on that pony.

      Given the recent shake-ups in the industry, I’m not sanguine about the price of .223/5.56 over the next three to four years. Even if Senile Joe gets the boot in 2024 (from my mouth to God’s ear!!!), it would take a while to get the market back to where it was, say, in 2018.

      • Folks kept telling me I had to have a 9mm. It was the worlds pistol round. It was and is. No argument. So I bought a 9mm. Then our first big ammo drought hit some years back and the first ammo that was sold out? 9mm. It was easier for me to get 9×18 for my Makarov.

        Now the worlds rifle is the 5.56. And what is the first thing to vanish when ammo becomes rare?

        I’m beginning to think that odd rounds is the way to go…….

        • Only difficulty is the odd rounds aren’t really produced as much during ammo droughts. It’s less likely to be bought out, but when it is it’s also less likely to be restocked.

        • “I’m beginning to think that odd rounds is the way to go…….”

          I discovered that the odd rounds were available early on when 9mm and 5.56 sold out. However, toward the end of the shortage, 9mm and 5.56 was everywhere, and the odd rounds were nowhere to be found. As a matter of fact, they’re still MIA.

          I haven’t seen the once common lighter weight 7.62×39 soft points in person in I don’t know how long. You can find the heavier ones, but not the light ones. The 6.8 SPC ammo selection never recovered. Everyone focused on cranking out 5.56.

        • .30 carbine is a good place to start. It probably qualifies as ‘odd’ nowadays. When I was a kid they were being bought mail order and were everywhere.

          I don’t know if they qualify as carbine rounds but as a kid we had some experience with .38-55 and .250 Savage. One of my buddies was a firm believer in the .257 Roberts. That was a shooter. I was always found of the 7×57 and the 6.5 Swede.

      • “…Especially given the up front capital costs of getting into the bulk ammo manufacturing business…”

        Our side has numerous pro-gun billionaires and multi-millionaires that could be convinced to fund such an endeavor, as a way of spitting in their faces.

        Think of it like this :

        The Leftist Scum ™ laughed at us when we complained about de-platforming by the social networks, telling us to go start our own.

        Then, what do you know? Elon Musk tendered a serious offer to buy Twitter, and all of a sudden, they’re (metaphorically) shitting bricks at the prospect of conservatives being on a platform with *heavy* US and global reach that they can’t touch.

        I think the idea has serious merit, all things considered.

        Remember when Obama ordered the armed services to crush gun range brass with a steam roller, destroying it’s value for the reloaders who bought it government surplus auctions?

        There was zero reason for them to do that, it was pure spite, and I say we repay their spite with strong dose of our own.

        I believe the idea is at least worth some serious consideration, seeing the near-future trajectory we are on… 🙁

        • “Obama ordered the armed services to crush gun range brass with a steam roller“

          It would be fascinating to read more about this, do you have a source or a link that tells more about this?

        • Geoff PR,

          A conservative funded and operated social media platform is a quaint idea–which failed in spectacular fashion. Look up Parler and how a concerted Leftist effort shut it down completely for a time–and how it never really recovered after that.

          The fact of the matter is that Leftists effectively control the Internet through legal and illegal means. If Leftists really despise an aspiring new social media platform, they are fully capable of shutting it down. Remember that Apple, Microsoft, Google, and Amazon (among many others) are Far-Left companies who have a virtual monopoly on hosting (server) services, DNS (Domain Name System) operations, application distribution (e.g. Apple’s App Store), and search engine availability. Good luck launching a platform if no one will host it, no one will support your website name in the Domain Name System, no one will distribute your application to use your platform, and no one will report your website in their search engine.

          And I have not even touched on illegal shenanigans such as impugning your platform, flooding your platform with bogus and extremely off-putting content, intentionally monkeying with core routers and DNS servers to impede access to your platform, and never-ending Distributed Denial of Service attacks on your platform.

          We are living in very dark times.

    • The ESG equity markets won’t fund oil production you thing they will fund ammunition plant? There are a bunch of abandoned DOD ammo/storage facilites available post BRAC though. If you don’t have to build new beehives would keep your cost entry down.

  5. The traitor cornyn has been getting tons of calls and is now getting “cold feet” about his Benedict Arnold imitation. I called the s o b’s office and told them that he violated both of the oaths that he took, one when he was in the military and the one he took when he was sworn in as a senator. That makes him a two time traitor to our country . I support protecting our schools and children but he and others have no authority to encroach on out bill of rights and that i will file civil rights charges against every s o b that votes for this abomination of a bill.

    • Great work! We all need to make Cornyn and McConnell regret their attempts to betray us.

      Everyone, keep up the pressure!

    • Pretty sure Coryny isn’t a vet. His father was AirFarce. He is just one more POS lawyer.

  6. So what’s next from Mr. Tyrant? 9mm?, .45acp?, .308? 12 gauge slugs and 00? Miserable pos!

      • Yup. Also, the WH is invoking the Ukraine BULLSHIT for this ammo ban. Ukraine needs the extra ammo.

      • You ain’t kidding. That IGMAN ammo from one of the Balkans is definitely some hot ammo. Their NATO rounds are like a “ P” charge. I’m very impressed with them. But you watch and see if any Aussie ammo providers all of a sudden dries up. They’re gun-haters like the globalist WENCH P.M. in NZ and will definitely follow Biden’s lead when it comes to restricting us from guns.

  7. Perhaps my understanding is incorrect, but don’t we ordinary folks buy way more than the feds? Without civilian sales, will they really be able to keep the line open and operating?

    Either way, talk about a delayed move. I’ve been expecting this for decades.

    • “Without civilian sales, will they really be able to keep the line open and operating?”

      All the more reason to build a new ammo plant, just a short drive down the road from the Lake City ammo plant.

      Right *there* is your free instant trained labor force, compliments of the actions of Leftist Scum ™ who thought they were gonna screw us.

      Revenge can be a dish served warm or cold. Either way, it’s still revenge… 🙂

  8. Trump was sued every time he signed his name.

    Why is the Biden not sued over these lawless actions??????

    • Suing the Federal government essentially needs their agreement to let it happen. Many of the courts won’t take up cases like this against the current administration.

    • Because the Dept of “Justice” and most of the court system has OWNED by the marxist progs for decades.

  9. This little senile man is really pissing me off, I got some handcuffs with his name on them.

    • The ones to go after are the ones whispering in his ear.

      Communicate your displeasure to them… 🙂

    • If your Trump handcuffs are of the same quality as Trump University or Trump steaks or Trump airlines, you may be in for a problem…

    • Those who normally shoot the Lake City ammo will be looking elsewhere and every weapon that’s got 5.56 engraved on the barrel shoots .223 just fine.

      • Which means the price just went up on .223. Remember when the Puppet said he was working on inflation? He’s actively working on raising it.

  10. Possible breach of contract?
    It must be in the contract that over runs can be sold commercially or they wouldn’t have been doing it.
    The contract probably also says .gov can change said contract whenever they want.

    • Supposing the latter, Winchester could be on the hook to complete their contract, but when it expires there’s no point in operating a factory at a loss or barely breaking even. So I’d imagine they walk at the end of the contract and, at least if Brandon’s still calling the shots, nobody else will step in and the Army would have to buy it’s ammo at Bass Pro like everybody else. Even if a Republican gets in the White House by then nobody would sign a contract outlasting their term.

      • The Army is paying them $28 million over seven years to operate and update the plant. Not a lot of money, but not chicken feed either, considering that is the management fee, and does not include the component cost or labor costs for ammo produced. I infer, however, that since the Army owns the plant, Winchester would have to pay the Army for the unit costs of the overruns before selling them commercially.

      • I’d think that if this move does violate the existing contract and (as was pointed out here) the Government could demand a cancel/renegotiate then Winchester would have the option of just saying “no thanks, run it yourself or find some other sucker”.

        • “…the Government could demand a cancel/renegotiate then Winchester would have the option of just saying “no thanks…” ”

          Not likely to happen. Such could happen, but not likely. Govt really can’t afford such a disruption to a new acquisition of its latest move to different ammunition. Government contracting is not like private contracting.

          In private contracting (contracting with individuals), the seller generally has more economic power than most individuals. The seller can afford to aggressively treat customers, knowing that the lose of revenue might be negligible, and that there are hundreds of other people in line to contract with the seller.

          In government contracting, government faces a small supplier base for specialized product/services. The “balance of power” is somewhat equalized. In the case of Winchester, using your tax money, the feds can simply compensate Winchester for serious forecasts of loss profit due to government prohibition of selling surpluses to the commercial market, modify the contract, pay compensation with your money, and move along.

          Result? Winchester is happy, government is happy, a deep trough in availability of civilian favored calibers eventuates, along with a resorting of the rest of the supply chain.

          Government doesn’t want Winchester to abandon the contract; Winchester doesn’t want to forego government money. Individual firearm owners have to deal with the fall out; Winchester unconcerned, govt unconcerned.

          One might look at government contracting as two (or more) Mafia families working out territories over a conference table; neither will be seriously damaged by the eventual agreement.

        • Sam is correct. Just put this in “Build Back Better” Think as $100m payment to Winchester would ruffle prog filters. They want to blow BILLIONS under BBB. Pencil dust as the idiot former Iowa Demtard Senator Harkin put it.

    • Maybe government just says “we need all that” so there isn’t any overrun.

      Anyway this is the next level of Obama’s green tip ban. Well played Biden! Continues to show he want to go against law abiding gun owners. Of course, he says gun owners don’t need these war weapons so I guess it makes sense to him.

      • there ARE overruns else the order would not end sales of them. contracts are contracts, andif the deal said Winchester can sell off overruns/surplus NOT needed to fill military needs, they can. That probably runs the life of the contract. For gummit to end that part of it withoout compensationg Winchester for their now-denied profits, that’s breach of contract,even if it IS government contract.
        Of course they bear the cost ofcomponents, labour, packagin,g, all the costs of production and distribution. They’ll likley have to lay off 25 to 30% of their current workforce, as the labour costs will no longer return a prifit, or even self-fund.

        I seriously doubt Dopey Joey actually has the authoirty to just step in and breach a military contract. Or even to pressure underlings to do so. He IS CinC, but even generals do not have unlimited authoirty. This is coming from Dopey Joey’s handlers, no doubt. Same louts pressing to disarm us in other ways nd moves. Perhaps a court filing in some friendly district, say,Texas orFlorida, on the bsis that the civilan availblelity is now compromised.

        • “I seriously doubt Dopey Joey actually has the authoirty to just step in and breach a military contract. ”

          Most any contract has a provision for unilateral withdrawal. There may be money paid-out as a consequence, but no one can be forced to complete a contract which they are incapable of performing. Even unilateral termination does not always prevent the terminating company from bidding on future contracts.

          As for government contracts, the government (including the military) has all sorts of protections for early termination. Sometimes the contractor is paid a fee, or premium, for taking the risk, sometimes not.

          In the case at hand, the question would be whether the prime contractor has protections in their contracts with sub-contractors and customers. The vast majority of government contractors know how the game is played, and are unlikely to have zero early termination protections. So long as a contract is not intended for illegal purposes, the participants can put in, or leave out any provison they like; provisions the participants agree to and meet the standards of a valid contract: item/service, and “consideration” (so-called “meeting of the minds”).

          Biden, himself, cannot order contracts modified, or terminated via EO/EA. Only the contracting officer can do that (upon direction of a president, through channels, and an official modification to the contract). Biden, through public statements, can warn a contractor of pending termination/modification. A president’s public statement alone, has no legal standing.

          (How do I know this? The Colonel and I each spent ten or more years with government contracting offices.)

      • “Anyway this is the next level of Obama’s green tip ban. Well played Biden!“

        Actually, it was Republican president Ronald Reagan who signed into law the ban on armor piercing ammunition for civilians:

        “Passed Senate amended (03/06/1986)
        (Measure passed Senate, amended, in lieu of S. 104, roll call #28 (97-1))
        Amends the Federal criminal code to define “armor-piercing ammunition as projectiles constructed from specified material which may be used in handguns. Excludes from the definition: (1) shotgun shot required by Federal or State regulations for hunting; (2) frangible projectiles for target shooting; or (3) projectiles that the Secretary of the Treasury determines are primarily intended for sporting purposes or industrial use.

        Makes it unlawful for any person to manufacture or import armor-piercing ammunition. Allows for: (1) the manufacture or importation of armor-piercing ammunition for the use of the United States or any State or local government; (2) the manufacture for the sole purpose of exportation; and (3) the manufacture or importation for testing or experimentation authorized by the Secretary. Allows for the sale and delivery of armor-piercing ammunition for these purposes.“

        • What’s your purpose in bringing this up? Congress passed a bad law and Saint Ronald signed it way back in the bad old days. And…what?

          What did you just achieve? Do we all have to agree with that law just because Reagan? Do we gasp in shock at the idea of a Republican stabbing us in the back? Do we all hate Reagan now and become Democrats? Help me understand.

        • the benefit is when there are over 200 comments. the little weenie think they’re clever (certainly not limited to this frustrated regurgitator) tldr posts allow a man to plow through much faster.
          sorry to say sam’s lengthy diatribes here about gov’t contracts qualify as well, but that’s an exception.

    • “The contract probably also says .gov can change said contract whenever they want.”

      The contract is easy to find, thanks the FOIA act.

      Read it, and see what’s there…

  11. I’d laugh my ass off if Winchester tells the Army to find someone else to run the Lake City plant and walks out. Or at least if 90% of the employees suddenly got sick for a couple weeks.

  12. Will the ten GOP Senators who agreed to the Cornyn/Murphy deal framework stay on board now? Possibly. Maybe even probably.


  13. I expect this to be in litigation for a long time if it happens. Also not sure how appropriations is going to take to this.

  14. Unfortunately, many of us saw this coming. It was too obvious a step to ignore. The right time to buy ammo is always now.

    • usually the right time was “a couple years ago” although the last decade has been tough

    • Our economy favors large companies and monopolies due to the over regulation. Isn’t it weird that there aren’t more companies making baby formula?

    • Maybe – but the simple fact is that if they are allowed to complete this action, they’ll feel emboldened and try for the next step, which is to revisit the M855 ban Obama tried to do with an executive order.

  15. He’s got record inflation happening on everything else why not ammo too?

    If anything he’s consistent.

    • He started that when he banned Russian ammo. That was a twofer for them. They were laughing their heads off when they came up with that one.

  16. Us and them. Line gets more pronounced everyday. If you complain that just means they’re right and you’re dangerous.

    Good times ahead. My states utility commission just approved a 100% increase to electricity citing higher fuel costs. Electricity is generated with oil and coal. Whodathunkit?!?

    When asked “how could they” they replied “expect further increases come winter.”

    Good times ahead. Gonna be rip-roarin’ fun.

    • I lived through Carter. This azzhole is much worse. Nothing changed for me. Hoarding ammo for the coming apocalypse. Lock n load…

      • Carter probably had a heart. Plus he was in charge of his faculties. Our country is being led by a senile puppet with a black hole where the heart is supposed to be.

    • They’re forcing solar, wind, and batteries on us so the people around 80 years from now will (supposedly) have half a degree of less warming. Get that? They’ve assessed that it would warm anyway. We have to get the entire world on board for that half a degree. The planet has survived huge swings in temperature in the past, but an extra degree 80 years from now will be the end of it! Imagine how much propaganda it took to get us to this point.

      • and in 1968 and 9 they were all knicker-be-knotted over the looing ice age, which would drop sea levels so far the ports of Los Angeles, Long Beach, and San Diego would be unusable due to insufficient water over the harbours to float the freighters. I laughed atthe whole charade, asI KNEW some of those clowns were probabl smoking ditchweed on the sly insteadof researcing their work. Ten years on, and the impending deep freeze switched to the blast furnace meme.

        • “and in 1968 and 9 they were all knicker-be-knotted over the looing ice age“

          Who is “they”?

          You have fallen victim to right wing disinformation:

          “1970s ice age predictions were predominantly media based. The majority of peer reviewed research at the time predicted warming due to increasing CO2.“

          Climate science is far more complex than a few simple soundbites or headlines:

          “The majority of climate scientists predicted warming from CO2 emissions, and data supporting this prediction increased throughout the 1970s. Many lines of evidence continued to build up, all indicating rising temperatures. By about 1980, evidence for warming was so overwhelming that ice age predictions had stopped altogether. This increase in understanding based on new evidence is a key part of the scientific process. Scientific thinking evolves as studies reveal new information. In the case of global warming vs. impending ice age, climatologist Stephen Schneider is an example of this key component of science. He was the second author on the aforementioned Rasool (1971) paper, which asserted that a quadrupling of aerosols would decrease global temperatures and, if this decrease was sustained, might lead into an ice age. However, upon revisiting this conclusion in 1974, when data and climate models had advanced, Schneider retracted the findings:

          “I personally published what was wrong (with) my own original 1971 cooling hypothesis a few years later when more data and better models came along and further analysis showed [anthropogenic global warming] as the much more likely…” (Schneider quoted in Santer & Erlich (2014))

          The prediction of cooling was based on the notion that aerosols from human emissions would quadruple. This increase simply did not happen, thanks in large part to actions like the Clean Air Act. Aerosol emissions actually decreased in the late 1970s, as previously mentioned. Thus, the key aspect of the cooling prediction did not come to pass, and the prediction was abandoned.“

        • 1minuteman, thank you for your reply.

          “Your respondent, Miner49er, is a liberal POS“

          So do you have any actual content with which to support your claim?

          Or is your reply just empty speech?

    • “My states utility commission just approved a 100% increase to electricity“

      Wow, a 100% rate increase for an electric utility… And which state would that be?

  17. It doesn’t seem reasonable to fantasize that any big ammo manufacturer is going to damage their relationship with the Feds to benefit their civilian customers especially with likely coming war spending in the picture.

    • ^This.^

      About half of US “ammo” manufacture by dollars is 20mm or larger. A market expected to grow at 3% compounded annually for the foreseeable future.

  18. Just in time for everyone to ditch their $400 AR and $0.30/round 5.56 for an $8000 SIG Spear and $4.00/round .277 Fury! LGB

    • Hey, my $400 AR is now worth $650 at least. Just wait until the supply is squeezed and only the well-connected can procure their license to purchase that weapon of war. Give it a few more years and it will be worth thousands.

      • Let’s define “weapon of war”. We can start with teeth; progress to rocks, sharp sticks, sword, atlatl, bows, black powder guns, right up to the present day. So when the left demands that “weapons of war” be forbidden to civilians they are talking about much more than just AR’s.

        “In the dimness of the shadows
        Where we hairy heathens warred,
        I can taste in thought the lifeblood;
        We used teeth before the sword.” Patton

    • DOD owns the new production line. You actually think dopey ped is going to allow .277SIG civ sales to continue?

  19. Why do we bother to elect Senators and Congressmen if the office of the President can shut down oil production, cut sales of ammo, decimate the essentials like baby formula and whatever other crazy whim that someone (Obama) whispers into his ear?

    • I’m old enough to remember them impeaching Trump for just delaying funds allocated to Ukraine. (Isn’t it funny how all roads lead to Ukraine?) It was so inconsequential, that Ukraine didn’t even realize it was delayed! We need more details, but Congress sets the funding.

      • Miner49er,

        There were reports alleging that the Abbott baby formula plant distributed contaminated baby formula which prompted a federal government executive agency (probably the Food and Drug Administration) to order the formula plant to shut down. That shut-down order remained in force for four months which caused a severe baby formula shortage in the United States.

        Newsflash: it takes about FOUR DAYS, NOT FOUR MONTHS to clean a food-processing plant and resume contamination-free operations. The only rational conclusion is that the federal government shut down that baby formula plant for punitive/nefarious reasons.

        The simple fact of the matter is that the federal government Executive Branch controls all of the regulatory agencies which can and do shut down anything and everything that they want at will–or at the direction of the President if it comes to that. Note that it would literally take an act of Congress–including overriding the virtually guaranteed Presidential veto–to rescind a regulatory agency’s authority. I am not aware of a single instance where that has ever happened. And it will never happen as long as The Establishment controls the United States House and Senate.

        Thus, the very principle which Maddmaxx stated is the de facto situation.

        • “Newsflash: it takes about FOUR DAYS, NOT FOUR MONTHS to clean a food-processing plant and resume contamination-free operations“

          “FOUR DAYS”?

          Upon reflection, you may want to retract your opinion.

  20. Well, the American Dream is out there for someone wanting to make a capital investment in components and/or ammunition. Some of those w/ auto drives should step up their game.

  21. An increasing amount of 5.56 is being made in Russia and in Israel. Expect importation bans on ammo next.

    At which point we ought to just call the drug cartels and ask them how much for them to just drive a truckload over the border and drop it off?

    • Unless included in a current contract with an import license, the feds have banned importation of ammo from Russia. Most of the existing contracts will expire next year, if not cut off by Pukin before hand.

    • Russian ammo imports banned Apr2021. Try to keep up.

      Mountains of the crap was sitting in the pipeline/warehouses so can still find on store shelves. For the moment.

  22. Wait… So this only applies to green tip?
    Not the 77gr OTM or 55gr FMJ?
    If that’s the case I just stopped caring.
    Are people really buying lots of green tip?

    • It’s already happening. Many small businesses that remain after The Purge still haven’t recovered from Covid tyranny. It isn’t going to get bad. It’s going from bad to worse on a daily basis.

  23. OK, the federal government owns the production facility. Some how the owner of a federal production facility cannot determine who, what and how something manufactured at that facility cannot be subject to federal control?

    Play with the feds, and you play by the fed rules. Only dim Dimocrats would cut off a source of government income because it benefits non-government entities.

    Only dim Dimocrats would believe that withdrawing ammo from civilian sales would cripple the firearms industry. Dims generically do not understand business; the shortage will be made up by other companies. Dims are always surprised that when they make rules, somehow people find alternatives. These are the same people who demand higher MPG performance from automobiles, then complain that fuel taxes are declining.

  24. America is still a capitalist economy to the shigrin of all Democrats and 80 percent of the Republicans. Some entity will step in and fill the void if the SS109 is banned. Look around you. All of o