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OregonSchoolShooting

[Updated 2:22 PM Central] Reports are coming in that there has been a school shooting situation at Umpqua Community College 3 hours south of Portland, Oregon. Initial reports indicate that 10 people have died and more than 20 are wounded, and the perpetrator is currently “detained.” Reports also indicate that the wounded include one female victim who was shot in the chest. An audio recording of the police radio from the event has been published which shows that in less than five minutes the police were exchanging gunfire with the attacker, and the attacker used a “long gun.”

One first responder is reporting that they found “multiple patients in multiple classrooms,” transporting 11 patients to the hospital (of which two subsequently passed away). The shooting took place within the classrooms of one single building.

An online posting has been found that may have been made by the attacker before event, but that is unconfirmed at this time.

Umpqua Community College is a “gun free zone” meaning no guns are allowed on campus and concealed carry is forbidden. The following warning to that effect is posted on the campus security web page:

Possession, use, or threatened use of firearms (including but not limited to BB guns, air guns, water pistols, and paint guns) ammunition, explosives, dangerous chemicals, or any other objects as weapons on college property, except as expressly authorized by law or college regulations, is prohibited.

Possession of knives with a blade longer than 4” is prohibited.

Brandishing weapons is prohibited.

Misuse of personal defensive weapons – e.g., pepper spray, etc. is prohibited. The owner is responsible and accountable for any misuse of these devices.

CNN’s anchors were just discussing that fact live on air, and Brooke Baldwin was clearly struggling with the concept that a “gun free zone” does not guarantee a lack of guns but is instead merely a polite request that disarms victims and does not provide any additional security. One of the guests on the phone has noted that “gun free zones” are prime targets for these events due to the inability of the victims to fight back and the long response time. Another commentator reiterated that even though Oregon is a “shall issue” state for concealed carry permits the “gun free” nature of the school means that it is an easy target because the victims are disarmed.

The parent of one student who was inside the school during the event claims that they did not hear any shots and therefore the attacker must have used a suppressor. Police report exchanging gunfire with the attacker, which pretty much debunks the idea of a suppressed firearm being used.

We will keep you informed as more information becomes available.

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123 COMMENTS

    • Who are “we”?

      Evil has always existed, and will always exist, in the world. If by “we” you mean “human civilization”, then, no: we’ll never get “ahead”, if “ahead” means eliminating evil from the world.

      • You are so correct. It is the utopian who is the problem. The unknown evil person or persons will always be with us.

      • Who are “we”?

        Evil has always existed, and will always exist, in the world. If by “we” you mean “human civilization”.

        I suspect Dracon1201 is speaking of us who promote gun rights. It doesn’t help when some nutcase does something like this. Opens the door for the anti’s to go after our rights, again.

        • I suspect Dracon1201 is speaking of us who promote gun rights. It doesn’t help when some nutcase does something like this. Opens the door for the anti’s to go after our rights, again.

          Then you and he need to stop letting them define the narrative. The innocent people killed/injured were defenseless, because they had already been denied their right of armed self-defense. That our rights were once again infringed is exactly the problem. More people are dead, because of gun control (i.e. civilian disarmament).

        • The point to keep in mind is that those responsible for creating a “gun free zone” are the enablers of the homicidal maniacs who exploit the advantage those enablers give them to kill without interference.
          Instead of admitting the “unintended consequences” — to give them the benefit of the doubt about their true motives — of their (at best) naive idea that “If no one is allowed to have a gun here, then nobody can get shot”, they instead try to use every such inevitable slaughter by a maniac seeking “fame” as an opportunity to demand more useless restrictions on the rights of innocent gun owners.

      • A society devoid of moral guidance and character is one devoid of a future . If Americans do not swallow their pride and bend a knee before the Way the Truth and the Light , America will cease to be anything but more of the same .
        I pray for the families of all involved . May their grief become resolve to follow God with fervent heart and to not let evil spin their grief into spiritual loss . My God has a purpose for every act and incident and can always turn a tragedy into a miracle if we allow Him to work his grace in our lives .
        I speak this not without terrible loss myself and would never presume my to be any greater than another’s .

  3. All other news outlets are just reporting 20 injured – no casualties so far.

    Nick, I sincerely hope you are wrong.

  4. You are watching CNN…(so am I, as others are not covering this)….

    Keep in mind, CNN is the same news agency that referred to the Navy Yard shooter as using an assault rifle…then called it an AR 15 assault rifle shotgun…then an AR 15 shotgun….before finally getting it correct and calling it a shotgun.

  5. Just saw this on the news. At least they caught the bastard so they might be able to determine motive. Thoughts and prayers to all of those involved

  9. Well, I hope they find him mentally competent…as OR has the death penalty.

    We sure don’t need stories like this, a day or two after the FBI report showing a decrease in gun murders/violence.

    • Sounds like an excellent candidate for the death penalty. After due process, of course. I wonder if this guy will spark something like a confederate flag ban, or will just be used as a talking point for gun control like all the other mass shooters. Who shot up “Gun Free Zones.”

  10. This can’t be….this was a GUN FREE zone……what do we do?….yup tighten up gun control even tighter..that will fix it…

    • Oregon could pass a universal background check law…oh wait, they just did.

      Hmm…I know! Make the “no guns” signs bigger! And make the signs say, “seriously, we mean it!”

  11. Cue the BAN HI-CAP MAGS and BAN EVIL GUNS talk from the left. Sad to hear but we all know what is to blame and what is not to blame.

  12. My condolences to those affected by this. look for gun sales to jump again, and ammo is about to become scarce as obama tries for yet another gun grab. It was just starting to show up locally again at semi reasonable prices too. still cant find 22 for love or money except at inflated gun show prices

  13. Now that I have my degree I carry ALL THE TIME.
    “Don’t ever let there be a gun free zone any where you are.” Mark Walters

  14. My heart goes out to the parents and family Of those young people who were horrified MurderedAnd I hope We can give a day Of reverence Before the liberal progressive media dips their white shirts in the blood of those who perished today But I severely doubt that! God bless america!

  15. Holy crap — I actually attended a seminar there once, and audited a class!

    I don’t know whether to call it irony or not, but the signs on roads leading to the campus, back when I dropped in, had bullet holes in them. It would be hard to find a nearby household without guns. Roseburg has expanded and attracted a lot of liberal types (especially retirees) since then, though, which I suppose explains the college policy.

    And given the inaccessibility of the campus for police — it’s nowhere near any LEO facility, unless things have changed — that’s a truly STUPID policy.

    • Given the arrogant and condescending attitude of many liberal community college faculty toward lower-income “white trash” rural folks, it wouldn’t surprise me if that were actually the case. Treat people like garbage long enough and thoroughly enough, and someone is going to snap.

  19. My prayers are with the injured fighting for life right now, the survivors and the families of the fallen.

    Another crackpot coward killing in a gun free zone… I wonder what meds this one is on…

  20. Hm. Oregon, the very same state that just passed a universal background check law this May?

    I’m not saying this is suspicious but…

    • +1, our concealed carry law has a supremacy clause and the “Gun Free Schools” federal infringement has a carve-out specifically for those who are licensed by their state to carry.

      • +1
        Join the NRA – renew your membership. Take the time to fill out the form and click SEND.

        Also join the GOA and SAF – both are doing fantastic work on your behalf.

        Indignation and comment-section activism WILL NOT SAVE YOU. You have to give, attend events in person, and reach out to your neighbors.

      • Barry will speechify tonight and say . ‘ and and and and and we must act now to rid our nation of this gun vilence and the gun culture that sets us behind the rest of the civelizzzzed werld , and and and and we must fight these these these people who who who cling to their guns and flags and beleafes .

        • Hey , I was close . I like the part where he said there were over 300 million guns in the country and that was almost one gun for every American and I thought to myself ‘ not enough ‘ , obviously , or those poor defenseless kids could have been armed and able to defend themselves . Would taking away more guns have stopped what happened from happening . It looked like a Ruger Mini 14 in the picture I saw online this morning . Nothing about gun control would stop any of this .

  27. “merely a polite request that disarms victims and does not provide any additional security”

    Well, ‘polite request’ is a bit passive…considering there’s actual jail time associated with it (only for otherwise law-abiding citizens who would choose to ignore it).

  28. My local community college in Texas is typically the first stop for college students just a year out of high school -lots of under 21 yrs students and not old enough for a CHL. Generally, it seems only the faculty would be old enough for armed self defense.

  29. WHY DOES NO-ONE address the underlying issues here, mental health? Why do we as a society just sweep that under the rug? There is no talk about it. Just the chunks of metal. That’s all we as a society talk about.

    The root of the problem is why do people do this, what causes people to do this, is it their upbringing, were they abused or neglected as young children? Why are these questions never asked?

    • We as pro-self defense (AKA sane) people need to start going beyond the asinine anti-gunners agenda and start addressing the psychological roots of the mass murder issue.

      • We could go back to the time when we violated people’s rights by denying them due process, tossing them in a cage, and torturing them.

      • Disregarding Grindstone’s idiotic reply, just asking these questions would be a good start. There are psychologists who have documented how early childhood neglect and abuse can cause aberrant behavior like this. Broken bonds between parent and child in the first 3 years of life can cause problems.

        Links:
        Understanding Elliot Roger
        Understanding Adam Lanza
        Understanding Ted Kaczynski

        This psychologist personally interviewed serial killer Richard Ramirez in her research.

        The data is out there, we could start by mining some of that instead of the already heavily mined gun and violence data (not that that should stop, of course).

        • That’s no action. We already know about bad parenting. We know about people who are bullied. We know about beta males who crave friendship and girlfriends and want to get revenge on society, on the jocks, and on the Chads and Buffys of the world.

          So I ask you again, what should society do about it?

        • That’s no action. We already know about bad parenting. We know about people who are bullied. We know about beta males who crave friendship and girlfriends and want to get revenge on society, on the jocks, and on the Chads and Buffys of the world.

          So I ask you again, what should society do about it?

        • Well, asking questions is an action. Starting discussions about the root causes of people that shoot up people is also an action. It’s about educating people as to the root causes. That’s an action. Once we know what the causes are then we can start to figure out the solution. Have you watched any of the linked videos?

    • Every gun , every bullet , every BB , every knife , hatchet , airsoft , ax , bow , arrow , car , hammer , nail , screwdriver , icepick , baseball bat , rope , cord , wire , poison , and rock . We must stop violence of every type and I actually think it would be a good idea to shut down all the schools from preschool to universities until we eradicate these threats for good . Maybe we could use some kind of electrical therapy and brain degradation techniques to alter folks personalities so they won’t conceive of such terrible deeds .
      Maybe we could just arm ourselves so when these nuts craw out of the slime that is their deranged minds we can end their fantasy’s quickly and cheaply .
      I really do hurt terribly for those families that now have to cope with their loss and the media attention that will follow where everyone pretends to understand it .

  32. Have to wait for the confirmed details to come out, but at first blush this sounds overstated.

    That’s an unusually high casualty count and kill rate, for starters. That much carnage also suggests a heavily prepared and highly motivated individual. It’s uncommon that such a shooter survives the day, either by his own hand or others, but anything’s possible.

  34. I graduated last year… All I can say is, despite some of the recent “troubles” with colorado gun laws at least we have campus carry. To put it lightly… My backpack didn’t just carry books and my waist had something other than a belt on it. It’s a shame so many people have died for want of that freedom.

    • Clearly this is a false flag, you can tell by the way that one guy vaguely look like he was smiling and or laughing /Sarc

      • I’m just saying it’s awfully convenient is all that suddenly the front page of news sites aren’t talking about Hillary’s E-mails today. /sarc

  37. Nice to see the ‘gun free zone’ aspect being brought up by the reporting media at the outset of this incident along with the observation that a GFZ is a great place to find helpless, defenseless victims to attack.

    To bad it will also be lost in the upcoming emotional firestorm of anti-gun hysteria that is sure to follow at the behest of the gun control “experts” and their anti-gun major media co-conspirators.

    • I agree. We cover that daily in here, but there are literally millions of voters out there who’ve never even considered that. So it’s well worth constant attention.

      A huge boost to that came with the recruiting station shootings earlier this year. That no-guns sign on that bullet riddled door provided a powerful optic.

  38. So sad how all of this is organized to speed up the move to martial law. Not surprised at all.

    The good ol’ USA…..

  39. Nutjobs like this going on places like 4chan and spout non-sense and get moral support from morons on the internet. Sickening. God help everyone involved in this.

  40. Schools, churches, theaters, and government property…all “no carry” zones…and where 99% of these issues occur. Gee…what a coincidence.

    It’s tragic that these lawmakers’ answer is to try to pass more gun laws. A criminal, by definition, doesn’t obey laws. If Jim Bob wants Jethro dead, he’s going to kill him. Be it with a gun, knife, car bomb, or throwing beer cans at him. Why do these naive liberal morons not see that ARMING and training responsible citizens is the only way to fight fire with fire?

    Another senseless tragedy that may have been averted with one shot from an armed student or teacher.

  41. So they officially ban water pistols? No fun allowed on campus. It was an Iraq vet breaking the law who saved the public in the Oregon mall shooting a few years ago. He broke the law when he pulled his CCW in the gun free zone mall forcing the evil shooter to kill himself.

    Apparently there was no military vet breaking the law with his gun to come and save them this time.

  42. I would like to see a list of states where the 2nd Amendment extends all the way into college classrooms. I know Texas just joined the list, but how many others are there?

  43. President just declared that everyone has to turn in their guns. Form a line and just do it.
    Scarcasism. I mean sarcasim. Oh well.

  46. If you go through the sick 4Chan-esque thread that’s linked, (and if it’s for real…) it looks like a disturbed individual that found that this was his chance for notoriety and impact in the world. And that’s exactly what the media is going to give him. He asked others to pray for him on his “errand”, and others said they would… I don’t even know what to say.

    Evil will exist, eliminate gun free zones, take care of each other.

  48. I live in Oregon, and I suppose Mzzzzzzzz. Kate baby, Brown is gonna throw a hissy fit, and good old Floyd daddy, Prozanski is gonna stay up all night trying to come up with some more useless legislation!

  49. Last year: Reynolds school shooting in Oregon. Stoped by armed resource officers in ~60sec. One dead and one wounded.
    Not a “gun free zone”

    I hope people will see the difference.

    • Also here in 2012 at Clackamas Town Center an attempted mass shooter killed 2 and seriously injured 1 before an armed citizen scared him into shooting himself. I always hesitate to say “only killed 2”, but you know.

    • Bought June or July, post UBC, passed a background check, family and friends knew he had mental problems.

      Calling it now.

  52. If the shooter passed a background check then it just goes to show background checks don’t work. If the shooter bypassed the check by stealing the gun or otherwise then it just goes to show background checks don’t work.
    I am sad for the families and victims who never had a fighting chance because of security theatre and feels.

  53. Just heard from our local station, 13 dead including 20 yr old shooter, 20 wounded. A student stated the shooter walked into the room and asked people to stand and state their religion and then started shooting. Sounds like terrorism to me.

    • A little late here(glad I was otherwise occupied). One guy with a gun would have stopped this murderous punk…

  54. Umpqua Community College is a “gun free zone” meaning no guns are allowed on campus

    This is not correct. Their rules state “except as expressly authorized by law” which you quoted. According to 166.370, people licensed to carry are exempt from the public building ban.

    (3) Subsection (1) of this section does not apply to: (d) A person who is licensed under ORS 166.291 (Issuance of concealed handgun license) and 166.292 (Procedure for issuing) to carry a concealed handgun.

    http://www.oregonlaws.org/ors/166.370

  55. I was doing a search on my phone (as I do everyday) to see what happened today. I was scrolling down the page and came to the BBC headlines (they are usually in the list). But what was odd is that it had a story listed as from 2 days ago about the ICC School Shooting. I couldn’t believe my eyes, as I knew the shooting just happened today 10/1/15. I took a screen shot of it for proof. I went out of the search, went back in and ran the same search for “world news”. However, this time, under the BBC news stories, the one I mention above had been removed. I did get a screen print of that as well. I didn’t believe a lot of the false flag stories until now. I wish I could add the pictures here for you! I can send them to anyone interested though.

  56. It’s a community college, so probably most of the students are under 21. Thus, they can’t get a concealed license.

    The rational response here would be to lower the age for concealed carry to 19.

  57. Gun control = TREASON. The school shooting is tragic and about as far away from Texas with its lawful campus carry. Why didn’t this dirtbag go to Texas to show how tough he really is? THIS is why people should not be harassed about carrying guns.
    No double standards put DC politicians on Obamacare and SS.Thanks for your support and vote. Pass the word. mrpresident2016.com

  58. Roseburg Mass Shooting: The Answer is More Guns!

    Don Boys, Ph.D.

    http://donboys.cstnews.com/roseburg-mass-shooting-the-answer-is-more-guns

    A gun-free zone is insanity personified! Only a deranged fool would suggest such a policy in our brutal, bloody, and barbaric society. Shooters may be vicious killers but they are not stupid. Since they want public attention they try to get more bang for their buck as they “make their statement” during a shooting. It is only logical that they will shoot up areas where there are no guns! Is that difficult for liberals to understand? Why make it easier for killers to kill?

    I believe that school shootings, such as this week’s slaughter at an Oregon college, would disappear if everyone knew that each school had a few people who were armed and considered dangerous (to the bad guys), and willing to defend the defenseless. The answer to mass shootings is more guns in the hands of good people.

    Guns are not the problem. People are. There are evil people among us. Pathetic pundits pontificate profusely proposing that vicious killers have to be sick–and some may be; however, most of them are simply evil. They do evil things because they are evil people.

    We are living with generations of youth that have been dumbed down by public schools and emasculated of character (in home and church); devoid of purpose and without goals other than to satisfy immediate urges. They don’t understand that the urge of the moment will become the scourge of a lifetime: they distain education and live on welfare for a lifetime often with their posterity following them on the same destructive path. They satisfy sexual urges like barnyard animals and produce bastard babies that are themselves programed for failure. These lost generations don’t seem to be able to connect the dots: light a match to gas and expect an explosion; pull the pin of a hand grenade and expect a blast; rock a canoe and it will turn over; jump from a high building and expect to fall–and hit hard. Actions produce consequences, often bad consequences.

    Liberals removed God from the schools: no prayer, no Bible reading, no Ten Commandments, no teaching based upon the Bible. No speaking of Christ. After all, kids might really take those teachings to heart. They may decide not to lie, steal, fornicate, rape, and kill! They might honor and obey their parents, the law, and school officials. They might become kind, gracious, fair, honest, and principled! Heavens, we can’t have that can we? After all, progressives demanded a secular society. Well, we have it and our schools have become ignorance factories, sex clinics, self-esteem laboratories, sports clubs–and killing fields. Furthermore, homes have become poorly run bed and breakfasts and our churches have become unprincipled, unbiblical, and unnecessary social clubs.

    I am weary of hearing radical leftists whine about how guns are corrupting young people (but the violent and sexual Hollywood movies aren’t bad!) and are a deadly threat to all our citizens especially those in schools. However, guns are inanimate while people are initiators so the problem is not with guns but with people. Anti-gun parents are horrified to see their small children playing with guns and “shooting” each other. Has the world gone insane? Most of us grew up “shooting” other kids. I “shot” them with wooden guns, cap pistols, sticks and even my finger! Never once did I consider getting my dad’s shotgun or .38 revolver and really shoot anyone.

    I believe the world has gone nuts. Don’t the “experts” know that girls enjoy playing house with dolls and miniature furniture and boys like to be more aggressive and play with guns? Males are more aggressive because of their God-given nature as a protector of the family. Kids should grow up with knowledge of guns and have experience in handling them. For sure, gun training is far more valuable than most of the fluff classes in most schools.

    I am weary of gutless politicians, even “conservative” Republicans who are so uninformed or so desire liberal approval that they cannot defend guns and the use of force when necessary to protect the innocent and helpless.

    Guns are protected by the Second Amendment. This is the heart of the argument. Why do politicians act as if the Second Amendment is not part of the Bill of Rights? To suggest that it refers only to an organized military organization is an abdication of reality. The “militia” of the Second Amendment was simply thousands of farmers with a gun in the corner of the house or over the mantle.

    The Second Amendment is there to protect us against the tyranny of government. Our founding fathers were well aware of government’s propensity to evolve into tyranny and they knew a well- armed citizenry mitigated against that possibility. Politicians don’t just hate guns but they hate and fear guns in the hands of an aroused citizenry.

    As knees begin to jerk all across America (left ones, of course) let me make it clear that I am saying what our founding fathers knew might someday be required: that our government might someday become so despotic that citizens must do again what they did in the 1700s! Yes, it could be that Americans might have to defend themselves against their government and that could only be possible if those Americans are armed! That is the reason that non-principled politicians whine constantly about controlling guns.

    Guns are not evil and only a flunky, fool, or fanatic says they are. In fact, guns are used over two and a half million times per year by honest citizens to protect themselves against criminals determined to do them harm! Armed citizens kill about 3000 criminals each year while the police kill about 1000.

    I have never heard a gun controller (read: confiscator) tell me what they will do about the bad guys out there who will continue to have their guns when supine Americans are browbeaten into surrendering theirs. Does any sane person think the criminals will register or surrender their weapons? Since the police show up after a crime, the citizen must protect his own family?

    I would like to see more guns in the hands of honest citizens! When good guys are armed the bad guys will be a little slower to act out their hostility. When a shooting took place in a Mississippi school a few years ago, the assistant principle ran to his car, grabbed his gun (good thing the gun-grabbers didn’t get there first) and stopped a massacre. He should be commended, not criticized!

    Now, a question for the gun-grabbers: Would it not have been desirable for one of the teachers in Oregon to pull his or her gun and drop the killer before so many innocent victims were killed? I wait for an answer.

    All sane, sensible people would agree that fewer deaths would be preferable, but no one says the gun-grabbers are sane, sensible people. At least, I don’t. They are fallacious, frivolous, fruity, foggy, fluttery, flimflamming, feverish, frightful, frenzied, fraudulent, foolish fascists. For those educated in public schools, I am saying that gun-grabbers are irresponsible, dishonest fanatics.

    If common sense is ever resuscitated, guns will be prevalent in the schools and those determined to do harm to innocent ones will be blown away before they blow away helpless people. Start awarding gun permits to teachers and school officials before more innocent kids are killed! We need more guns in schools and society, not fewer!
    (Boys’ new book, The God Haters will be published Oct. 20 by Barbwire Books and available as an eBook at Amazon.com.)
    (Dr. Don Boys is a former member of the Indiana House of Representatives, author of 15 books, frequent guest on television and radio talk shows, and wrote columns for USA Today for 8 years. His shocking books, ISLAM: America’s Trojan Horse!; Christian Resistance: An Idea Whose Time Has Come–Again!; and The God Haters are all available at Amazon.com. These columns go to newspapers, magazines, television, and radio stations and may be used without change from title through the end tag. His web sites are http://www.cstnews.com and http://www.Muslimfact.com and http://www.thegodhaters.com. Contact Don for an interview or talk show.)

    “Like” Dr. Boys on Facebook at http://www.facebook.com/CSTNews?ref=hl
    and http://www.facebook.com/TheGodHaters?ref=hl

    Follow him on Twitter at https://twitter.com/CSTNews
    Visit his blog at http://donboys.cstnews.com/

  59. Don’t believe it for a second. The story is another fake like Sandy Hook, to be used for pushing more “gun control”. This one is just a do-over because of the fake Virginia Reporter shooting that everyone busted (done in two different takes). Notice they don’t mention the Virginia shooting when they talk about this one.

  60. Nick Leghorn LIES. The Umpqua campus is NOT a gun free zone. Oregon Law allows concealed carry on all campuses from K through college. Any regular CCW permit will do.

    Note the phrase, “except as expressly authorized by law or college regulations.”

    Again, The Truth About Guns, lies.

  61. F.Y.I. to those who were so sure they had Harper, the shooter, @ UCC figured out, family, social status and what ever else I may have left out. The shooter was a 26 year old guy originally from California, who suffers from Aspergers, a form of Autisim. HIs mother moved them here, to Oregon, where I reside, from Torrence, California after Harper had meltdowns over Cockroaches in their apartment. Harper was easily set off by loud noises, because of how a person which Aspergers brain sensor works, or doesn’t. So, when kids were playing outside, or someones television was loud, or a dog barked for periods of time, Harper would meltdown and his mother would go to where ever the noise was coming from and ask them to stop. In other words,Instead of helping Harper work through and help deal with the issues, she expected everyone around them to conform. It disturbs me that a mother with an Aspergers child, that has a propensity for meltdowns and violence, would actually take that child to the gun range to target practice. But not address, the kids issues through tough and lengthy therapy designed to help the child adjust as they grow. We lost amazing beautiful people because this kid had an mental issue, that can never be treated by medication, was compounded with depression and had possibly never been given the tools to cope. I hate what Harper has done, I hope he is at peace…But more, I despise what his family DIDN’T do, and that they allowed an unstable, young man, 26, under his mothers roof, own a gun. I guess you would have to walk in their shoes to even begin to wrap your mind around it. I doubt considering the end result, I will ever be able to do that.

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