The past few days in the US have been a crystal clear demonstration of the value of Americans’ right to keep and bear arms. In the tradition of the venerated “rooftop Koreans,” during rioting and civil unrest, no one is going to protect your business for you. Rioters and looters have faced little real opposition in most places since civil unrest began on Thursday.
But demonstrating to rioters and looters that a store owner is armed and willing to protect the business they’ve built has a salutary effect, usually convincing opportunistic predator types to go elsewhere.
Watch this video of the owners of Corbo’s Bakery in the Little Italy section of Cleveland:
The armed men, one with a rifle and another with a shotgun obviously thought through what they were doing in advance.
They stood outside of the business letting anyone in the streets know that the store was protected by men with guns. When would-be attackers approached, they backed into the store, most likely locking the door. What they didn’t do was point their firearms when they were outside on the street.
Then, when the “protesters” decided they didn’t want to deal with a clear threat of being shot if they attacked the store and moved on, the owners came back outside to continue advertising the fact that any attempt to loot at that address would not go well for the rioters.
This was just one case of armed business owners defending themselves and their property. This no doubt played out in a lot of other stores in cities across the country.
This is why more than 100 million Americans own guns. And more are buying them every single day. This is why so many people are so adamant about defending the right to keep and bear arms from any further limits or infringements.
What was that, again, about the danger of “weapons of war” on our city streets?
I like it…hope they have lots of ammo behind the counters…as well as more weapons…just in case
maybe a few people to help reload as well
probably won’t need it. the rioters only attack people who can’t or won’t shoot them.
they want to rob target stores and punch cops who won’t fight back.
none of them want to be the “first wave” that gets obliterated.
And when a firearm is pointed directly at you, it gets personal real quick. Haven’t heard from the ” nobody needs an A R ” group this week.
We actually did hear from the “nobody needs an AR” a few days ago, but from an unexpected direction.
An analtifa type discovered a couple of AR-15s lying in the back of a trashed police car and picked one up only to have a security guard put a pistol up his left nostril. At which point the analtifa decided “nobody really needs an AR THAT bad,” handed it over to the security guy, and mosied along his way.
Would you be willing to be the second guy shot trying to get in?
The third?
This story cannot be true. The democrat media complex said peaceful, law abiding gun owners are “domestic terrorists” and the ANTIFA/BLM rioters, looters, robbers, arsonists are “peaceful protesters”…
The Marxist Lefts failure of gun control on display for all to see and the reason for the 2 nd. amendment.
“Corbo’s Bakery in the Little Italy section of Cleveland”
I just *know* there’s a gun and cannolis joke in here, somewhere.
You know, that line in the movie always seemed a bit off to me. Why “Leave the gun, take the cannoli”?
How about take both the gun and the cannoli? I mean, they don’t have to be mutually exclusive!
“You know, that line in the movie always seemed a bit off to me. Why “Leave the gun, take the cannoli”?”
It sends a message. It’s a middle-finger to the face. Leaving the gun is announcing it wasn’t a random thing, it was deliberate.
It’s a mob form of “The language of flowers”. Google it…
Leaving the gun means you can’t get caught holding the murder weapon.
Good point… 🙂
In NJ, where the scene was set, it has been seen as highly suspicious since WWII that a private citizen has a gun, much less has a small, concealable gun on them while out and about.
“Leave the gun” is to insure that if they’re stopped by the police, they just have some baked goods. They’re just regular guys, y’know?
Sorry, “NY” where the scene was set.
Even in the pre-1960’s era NYC area, being found in possession of a handgun was a Big Deal. If you didn’t need to have it on your person, it was best to be rid of it ASAP. This is a result of the Sullivan Act – which judged handguns on a basis of “concealment.”
The irony is that in that era, kids on the rifle team in some school districts took their .22 rifles back and forth to school on a school bus. But be caught with a J-frame? Felony right there…
I kinda chuckled when the dude comes out of the bakery with a smoke between his lips.
Yeah, there’s a joke there somewhere.
Like when you let the cigarette dangle from your lips when you tell the highway patrol to fuck off? 🙂
When I lived in Cleveland, Corbo’s was my go-to place for cannolis, cassata cakes, and Italian ices.
These aren’t protestors like CNN etc. keep calling them; they are thugs bent on destruction and looting.
Disagree, it is not that simple. It is a mix of protestors and violent assholes. It is a mix of races too. It is absolutely not a thing that can be painted with a broad brush, that only leads to error and assured failure in ending all this trouble.
Yes, it IS that simple. Nobody who is roaming the streets in groups by now is up to any good. If it’s a mix of anything, it’s a mix of violent and stupid.
No offense but that’s bullshit.
Just yesterday we had a legit protest in Denver. It ended hours before curfew. Those are the same people volunteering in the morning to scrub spray paint and sweep glass. They leave about 4PM, four hours in advance of the curfew.
After 8pm is when the nuts come out, really after 8:30, when it’s dark.
Guilt by association is a terrible thing and it’s part of why we’re in this mess. Try to avoid it.
No offense to you, but THAT in turn is also bullshit. You may not have noticed, but this is not just a series of peaceful protests anymore.
Also, notice that I said “roaming the streets in groups.”
Gathering in a public square in peace and then going home to put the kids to bed before dark? Fine. There was a good-sized group of them in my small town over the weekend; they’re not the ones I’m talking about, and you know it.
These aren’t the donuts you’re looking for. Move along, move along.
So the wife and I were just there a few days ago. We walked around Little Italy a few days after she had her kidney removed and donated. For a crap city that area was rather nice. One of the bakerys I refused to check out had a sign on the door that said “leave the gun, take the cannoli”. I did not feel under gunned at the time with my Glock 26 but don’t think I would say the same now.
You know it could be the bakery was just having a laugh with the movie reference, right? Doesn’t make them anti-gun.
A sign like that would encourage me to go in and buy cannoli, because I love cannoli. But I’d smile and say “Yuo know, I prefer to take both the gun and the cannoli”, and I’d leave something in the tip jar if they had one out.
But that’s just me.
It very well may have been a movie quote. I’m not one thats into movies or TV in general so wouldn’t know if that was a quote or not. Plus cannolis are not my most favorite thing in the world. Now did stop by a Gelato place and throw money their way.
“It very well may have been a movie quote.”
‘The Godfather’ :
I was at a wedding where the bride was related to this family in some manner. Corbo’s catered the baked food. I probably at 4lbs. of their cookies.
Later, my fat ass ordered from them online and had it shipped to Canton.
Good people.
They came back and smashed their window. Guns are useless unless you use them when needed. A little #8 target load would have sent them packing. If they came to fight the next round is 00.
A smashed window? That’s nothing to a burnt out store. Their tactics worked.
Did you see the guy get on his knees and dare them? These are not protesters obviously.
Do these kids think they are living in a cartoon world?
Would have been hilarious if one of those gun guys fired a pepper spray at him.
Yes, they do. And the looks on their faces when reality gob smacks them is priceless.
I would not open fire over a smashed window, just attempts at burning. Now if someone smashed a window and then lit a match and had the idea of tossing it through the window and running, I would have raised the rifle or shotgun and pointed it at them.
How angels can dance on the head of a pun? A smashed window is a prelude to the next step. I said below, this is not a bunch of property crimes. It is an attack on Civil Order. I am not Serge arguing shooting people for trespassing. This exceeding 1968 levels of violence precisely because lethal force is not being used by the authorities.
After all, tax payers can pay for a new police station.
My memories of 1968 are pretty different. Places like Baltimore, Chicago and LA took a real beating. It was bad.
tdiinva,
I believe that there is a criminal liability problem for victims facing possible mob aggression. As far as I can determine, a mob who is verbally expressing anger/hostility and advancing toward a possible victim does not constitute a credible, imminent threat of death or grievous bodily harm to the possible victim — which means that possible victim does NOT have legal justification to use deadly force. Thus, in the scenario that you described, the possible victim (the bakery defenders) cannot legally discharge a shotgun into the mob, even if that possible victim loaded the shotgun with #8 shot.
We desperately need an update to our criminal laws which allows a possible victim to initiate/apply self-defense while the mob is still advancing and before the possible victim is incapacitated. Perhaps that simple change of law would allow a possible victim to use a firearm to shoot blanks, simunitions, rubber bullets, or bean-bags into the advancing mob if the mob continues to advance after the possible victim yells at them to stop. Another possible option would be allowing the possible victim to use something like a fire extinguisher to blast out a huge cloud of tear gas or pepper spray — and blast it out a long distance — in the same conditions that allow blanks, simunitions, rubber bullets, or bean-bag rounds.
Disclaimer: I am not an attorney. The above is my opinion and NOT legal advice.
“I believe that there is a criminal liability problem for victims facing possible mob aggression.”
That usually isn’t a problem as long as you live in a red state. I know it isn’t a problem in my state. If someone aggressively approaches you like that AND they have the ability to inflict harm, you are allowed to use deadly force to protect yourself or others. In other words, a 100 pound woman, without a weapon, is not a threat to a grown man.
If people want less violent crime as well as the ability to protect themselves, then the key is to stop electing liberals.
We are not dealing with property crimes. This is an attack on the Civil Order. Attacks against the Civil Order have traditionaly been met with lethal force. If we continue to treat it as simple crime the rioters will continue to escalate their attacks. There is qn asymmetry in play. They are making revolution, we, that is ordinary people and the government, are playing by the standard rules of civil society. Unless we change the rules this will end with a far larger number of bodies than it should have been. If the cops and the NG won’t shoot looters than it is up to property owners to start doing it.
“Perhaps that simple change of law would allow a possible victim to use a firearm to shoot blanks, simunitions, rubber bullets, or bean-bags into the advancing mob if the mob continues to advance after the possible victim yells at them to stop.”
The line is the window glass.
Once that brick hits the glass and shatters it, you’re now in a form of a “Deadly missile into a building” charge, and a lethal response *could* be allowable.
Can any of the TTAG legal-types confirm or deny that?
State law controls, so there can be as many as 51 (including DC) answers to your questions.
“…a mob who is verbally expressing anger/hostility and advancing toward a possible victim does not constitute a credible, imminent threat of death or grievous bodily harm to the possible victim…”
Wut? How could it NOT?
Any individual who did this would constitute a threat of death or grievous bodily harm. Why would a mob be any less deadly?
Ing,
A single person approaching you in an angry manner, without any objects in hand that a jury might view as a weapon, is usually NOT a credible, imminent threat of death or grievous bodily harm. Sadly, most states require you to engage such a person in hand-to-hand combat if that approaching person suddenly tries to punch, kick, and/or tackle you.
Note that there are rare exceptions for a huge disparity in force — such as a 20 year-old male attacking a 70 year-old male or a big man attacking a little woman.
The problem with a raucous mob approaching you is that you have no way of knowing if they simply happen to be walking in your direction (and will pass without incident), if they only plan to vandalize a storefront, if just one person intends to engage you, or if several people intend to engage you. That being the case, it gets legally dicey trying to say that the raucous mob was a credible, imminent threat of great bodily harm.
And even if you could try to claim that, does it apply to the entire mob? Can you apply deadly force to any one of the 40 people approaching you? Even the people farthest away?
Nice attempt to shift the argument, but no. I’ll quote you again: “…a mob who is verbally expressing anger/hostility and advancing toward a possible victim…”
The MOB is the threat. We’re not talking about one guy who may or may not want to punch you. You yourself said that an angry mob is coming toward the victim. You as a remote bystander can’t legally intervene in most cases (and in virtually all cases, it’d be stupid to try).
If the mob is coming toward you, everyone in it is part of the deadly threat — and in that case, light ’em up with righteousness on your side if you have to.
For a start, non-lethal munitions are not generally available to the public, and if they are they are very expensive. The closest a “civilian” could buy is birdshot for a 12g.
And a mob tends to have the same collective IQ as the equivalent herd of sheep. Logic and rational thought went down at a faster rate than the tempers went up.
I think the water cannon is the best solution. Best used with freezing brine, marker dye, and CS powder added to the mix.
That’s what they are using in Hong Kong right now. Only this time, the odds are that the resistance will be crushed, and the arrestees charged with treason and executed.
Au contreire, Uncommon_Sense., regarding a mob and using deadly force. History has shown that the greatest power of the gun is to deter. Criminals target only victims that they believe they can overpower. Criminals are not in the business of giving their prey an even chance. Per Massad Ayoob, noted LEO/expert witness in self defense trials relates in his “Concealed Carry”: “Deadly force is only permissible in a situation of immediate, otherwise unavoidable, danger of death or great bodily harm to oneself or another innocent person one has the right to protect. Duty to Retreat (safely without danger to victim), Castle Doctrine, Stand Your Ground details apply….know your local laws. The presence of that situation is determined by the simultaneous presence of three criteria: Ability, Opportunity, and Jeopardy.
Ability _ attacker has the power to cause death or great bodily harm…kill or crippling injury. Usually takes the form of a weapon…gun, knife, club…feet…..or in case of Dallas victim, a skateboard. But, disparity of force in form of force of numbers….threatening mob; ……hugely larger, stronger attacker; trained in force attacker; adult violently attacking child; able-bodied attacking disabled, etc.
Opportunity – attacker is immediately capable of employing that power. Mob advancing within effective range of their Ability method. Attacker with knife at 21 feet can attack and inflict injury in 1.5 seconds…..therefore immediate danger. At 100 yards, not so much so. Mob with knives, clubs, rocks,(farther??), fists, skateboards at ~21ft clearly meet opportunity. Guns much farther.
Jeopardy – opponent must be acting in such manner that any reasonable, prudent person, with victim’s knowledge of situation, in victim’s situation would conclude that attacker’s intent….manifest intent = expressed in words and/or actions/posturing…..verbal threats; destructive behavior; previous victim;……was to kill or cripple victim or innocent person to protect.
Victim must not have done anything that impairs/pierces the “mantle of innocence”……start aggression or “keep it rolling” after attacker breaks off force.
But, even when all three criteria are present, any time one uses deadly force….or even brandishes a firearm to deter…..one’s life can change forever. Especially in a Libtard/Democrat/Socialist juridiction.
I hope all these riots just raise a silent army in support of Trump this November. Destroying businesses doesn’t just hurt the business owners and local economy, but also now all of the locals who used those businesses that now have to go somewhere else. They are also burning and destroying monuments and churches.
Mail in voting is the plan to steal this election.
Happy to see you didn’t get caught up in Albany over the weekend.
Cool story! If I could figure it out I’d post a pic of a casual group of armed guy’s sitting in front of a LGS. Former cop owned…too bad our local 5-O didn’t pull their gats out for the “protestor’s”😟
http://www.americanspecialtyammo.com/12-ga–less-lethal.html
I wanted to know if anyone had tested any of these types?
May order just to see.
“I wanted to know if anyone had tested any of these types?”
Uhm, tested how?
Are you volunteering to ‘Take one for the Team’, so to speak? 😉
I don’t volunteer for anything, being ‘voluntold’ is another matter when I wore a uniform. However, was wondering if they would work in a semi, if there was penetration (a bad thing in this context…maybe) at what range would they not be effective ect Things such as that.
I did once see some youtube article about ‘rock salt’ that seemed to suggest it was not a good idea.
Kinda wondered about the tactics that one would use to defend a street level store front. If you are outside you run the risk of being over run by rioters or shot by the cops/guard. If you are inside, you still run the risk of your windows being smashed and the store being invaded in which case you would then have to decide to shoot or not to defend property. No good options really in this litigious society where only criminals have rights.
They won’t overrun people with long guns.
” If you are inside, you still run the risk of your windows being smashed and the store being invaded in which case you would then have to decide to shoot or not to defend property.”
Know the legal “lay of the land” where you are.
A “Duty to retreat” law could get you a felony charge…
If you’re there with a gun you’re not defending property. You’re defending life; your own.
There was a missed opportunity for a Sparta kick there…
That would have been epic…
Notice how the “rioters” were white…
And holding a Black Lives Matter sign, no less. The Left won’t be satisfied until there’s a full on race war.
From Tim Pool. Former Vice news reporter. “A socialist white supremacist.”
The Rioting Is Being Staged And Even Minnesota’s Governor Agrees, Says International Forces At Work. video 24 minutes long.
Socialist white supremacists. So…Nazis?
That shop has amazing sfoigliatella (sp) which is a rarity unfortunately in the states. We were intending to go to Cleveland this weekend but think we’ll be sticking to rural areas like home
Cleveland has been shut down until Wednesday morning. Weird thing is I have nothing in my news feed about the goings on there, and neither does my daughter, who lives there.
When there is war in the streets you need weapons of war.
In these situations it’s always best to take out the scumbag with the camera first, he’s probably the leader.
You’re preaching to the choir.
Post this up on Moms Demand Action’s forums.
I hope the christian bakers show the government the same response. When they refused to bake a gay wedding cake.
Would have been better if it was a snuff film.
This is why we need unrestricted magazines.
They need riot free zone signs !!! Simple fix !!!