Texas School Shooting
(AP Photo/Dario Lopez-Mills)
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As more details of tragic shooting at Robb Elementary School in Uvalde, Texas emerge, one disturbing thing now stands out: the apparently long, long time it took to end the threat to the children in the school.

For those of us who have had law enforcement training, the events in Uvalde fly directly in the face of what police have been taught since Columbine. Prior to that atrocity, the accepted thinking in law enforcement was to gather a sufficient team, enter the building carefully, and then methodically end any threats using negotiation if possible. This thinking was largely centered around hostage situations, which can go on for hours or even days. Because hostage-takers’ only leverage is the lives of those they’re holding, being slow and methodical was a good way to keep deaths to a minimum.

Columbine and 9/11 disabused us of that notion.

From “Comply To Survive” to “Let’s Roll.”

Columbine taught first-responders that active shooters have very different objectives. Instead of demanding concessions from authorities, the idea is usually to maximize the number of dead and wounded to gain as much fame as possible (this is a twisted version of the human instinct to want to be remembered after death, and to feel like our life had meaning), with no expectation of leaving the scene alive.

For airliners, 9/11 was a similar paradigm shift. Prior airline hostage situations usually ended up with something like an unexpected flight to Cuba or a tense runway standoff that only differed from other hostage situations in terms of location. The thinking prior to 9/11, was that complying with the hostage-takers was the best way to maximize survival, even if the situation could be traumatic and highly inconvenient. But, the 9/11 hijackers were much like the Columbine shooters, with no intention of their own survival.

The lessons learned from both 9/11 and Columbine were basically the same: Let’s roll.

With this new kind of threat, the best way to minimize loss of life is to act quickly and decisively, engaging the threat as soon as possible, regardless of personal risk. Like the Flight 93 passengers who defeated the terrorists and saved countless lives at the cost of their own, the job of a responding police officer (or one already on the scene) is to step up and deal with the threat immediately, regardless of personal risk.

The job requires an attitude and mindset that most people would find unacceptable. Survival alone can’t be your goal. Like the Jem’Hadar in Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, if you’re the first officer there, you have to assume going in that you’re already dead, and that you’re going into battle to reclaim your life. The only way to do that is to prevail over the shooter(s), so you’ve got to do that job or expend your last breath trying.

The Era of the Suicidal Shooter

This completely selfless warrior mindset, this Bushido-like code of conduct, generally didn’t ask responding officers for that ultimate sacrifice in the 10 to 15 years after 9/11 and Columbine. Even weak and sometimes ineffectual armed opposition from police or armed civilians was usually sufficient to stop the threat. These early post-Columbine shooters didn’t intend to be killed by cops and would often kill themselves or surrender (usually the former) at the first sign of resistance.

I was told in a police academy that they’d probably just kill themselves, so it was a good idea to run on in and make that happen as quickly as possible in order to save lives.

Some People Don’t Have The Guts

Even with that in mind, we’ve sadly seen that some people just aren’t willing to take that much personal risk no matter how they were trained. After a Broward County Sheriff’s deputy failed to take action, many agencies changed their policies to say that responding personnel shall respond with force, rather than may respond with force. But policy changes can’t change personalities and characters, so we don’t know whether that kind of response will happen until the situation happens.

Mass Killers Adapt To Armed Resistance

Mass shooters, through their various online “communities” and the raw fame of past killers have adapted their tactics. More modern mass killers know that armed citizens, security personnel, and police officers are likely to respond quickly, so ending their shooting spree as soon as someone fires at them will mean seriously reduced body counts…and fame.

The manifesto and preparations of the recent Buffalo shooter are a great example of this. He knew he would be up against security personnel and possibly (though far less likely) an armed citizen. He prepared and chose his target accordingly. A relatively unprepared security guard actually shot the Buffalo killer, but he wore body armor and managed to win that fight and continue the murder spree until police arrived.

The Uvalde Shooter

The Uvalde school shooing happened a few days ago, so this is based on current reports that may later prove wrong or incomplete, but based on what we’ve seen, we’re looking at a continuation of the trend I describe above. The shooter thought through and planned his attack.

However, according to media reports — however accurate they may be — police reportedly didn’t try to enter the building immediately. Some reports indicate a delay of 30 minutes and possibly as much as an hour.

From the AP . . .

Frustrated onlookers urged police officers to charge into the Texas elementary school where a gunman’s rampage killed 19 children and two teachers, witnesses said Wednesday, as investigators worked to track the massacre that lasted upwards of 40 minutes and ended when the 18-year-old shooter was killed by a Border Patrol team.

“Go in there! Go in there!” nearby women shouted at the officers soon after the attack began, said Juan Carranza, 24, who saw the scene from outside his house, across the street from Robb Elementary School in the close-knit town of Uvalde. Carranza said the officers did not go in.

Javier Cazares, whose fourth grade daughter, Jacklyn Cazares, was killed in the attack, said he raced to the school when he heard about the shooting, arriving while police were still gathered outside the building.

Upset that police were not moving in, he raised the idea of charging into the school with several other bystanders.

“Let’s just rush in because the cops aren’t doing anything like they are supposed to,” he said. “More could have been done.”

“They were unprepared,” he added.

Officials say [the shooter] “encountered” a school district security officer outside the school, though there were conflicting reports from authorities on whether the men exchanged gunfire. After running inside, he fired on two arriving Uvalde police officers who were outside the building, said Texas Department of Public Safety spokesperson Travis Considine. The police officers were injured.

After entering the school, Ramos charged into one classroom and began to kill.

The shooter eventually faced armed resistance, reportedly from an off-duty Border Patrol tactical unit agent who charged into the school. Gunfire was exchanged, the Border Patrol agent was wounded, but managed to kill the shooter.

We don’t know yet why responding officers didn’t attempt to enter the school sooner. There are many aspects of what took place in Uvalde that haven’t been revealed as of this writing. It took days and weeks for what happened at Parkland to emerge.

For now, though, based on the current reports, it appears that responding officers didn’t follow long-established protocols for responding to school shootings and similar situations. The officers who were there that day will have a lot of questions to answer.

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  1. If my kid or wife was in there, I would’ve gone home, get my AR-15, and gone in trying not to get shot as much as I could. What are the police going to do? Shoot you from behind?

      • Appearances can be deceiving as much as public narratives. We can have suspicions but more information will be needed for critical thought.

      • If the police truly not only didn’t go in, but also actually prevented other people from doing so, then they should be charged as accessories to murder. That would make them accomplices to the murderer.

        Any police officer who is not willing to lay down his own life to defend the life of a young child is a coward and disgrace to the uniform.

        Yes, your wife my become a widow, and your children orphans, but that is the job, and the job comes with risks.

        • typically I reject the whole “you signed up for this” because no one signs up to die. ESPECIALLY if it’s in the context saying a cop should risk his life to try and not shoot some nutjob trying to stab him

          However, in this case, yes. There is no more important urgency than the one they faced, and they failed.

          There were almost certainly be no criminal charges and it’s likely that even civil charges will fail due to federal caselaw. However, nobody there should have a job if they waited an hour unless it was a guy who was incapacitated because he was shot trying to go in the first time (giving the benefit of the doubt there).

    • A few years ago, I read a short story about a nationwide concerted effort by terr0rists to do this to over a dozen schools in a district simultaneously, knowing the local resources wouldn’t be able to adequately respond. The parents outside the schools became frustrated and brought their own guns to conduct their own rescue efforts, and the few LEOs already outside the schools couldn’t tell which adults were the good guys and which were the bad guys. The LEOs barked commands at the parents to drop their weapons, but after hearing shots fired from within the school buildings, the parents rushed forward in desperation to save their kids. In the chaos, the LEOs shot anyone with a gun, and at the end of the story terr0rists, children, and many parents were dead. The final chapter included a scene in which anti-gun politicians pushed thru a severe gun control bill with astonishingly high support.

    • Yes they would shoot you in the back and the media would prsise them. Its pretty clear that police only serve themselves and not the public.

    • Unfortunately I have to say that today the police would shoot you in the back just so you would not expose them for being the cowards that they are. When seconds count the police might be standing there for 30 minutes or more while they work up the nerve to do something. You can’t really fault them though. Most of them did not sign up for this and going head-to-head with somebody already in position who’s armed with a rifle is not for everyone.

      • We drafted 18 year old boys and sent them to face the Viet Cong, the Nazis, Imperial Japan, etc.

        Professional career police officers should be held to a higher standard than 18 year old conscripts.

        • One of my uncles was only 16 when he enlisted post-Pearl Harbor. The local recruiter looked the other way and let him lie about his age. He wasn’t going to turn away someone willing to serve, especially a healthy well-built farmboy.

      • But they did sign up for it Officer Bill. Literally. Every one of them. And the taxes of the parents whose children were killed went in part to pay the wages of these brave public defenders who, you can damn well bet, would go all rocks, scissors, paper to be first in the stack if they got the order from On High to kick in your door to confiscate your guns at zero dark thirty. Count on it. But of course, being an Officer n all, your door would likely get a pass, am I right?

  2. History = wash, rinse, & repeat.
    “ Those that fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.”- Winston Churchill

    Evidently those LEOs didn’t understand.
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” –
    utilitarian philosopher John Stuart Mill

    • Hoping my comment below is not the key takeaway as it sounds like there was an initial attempt that got a few officers wounded but we will see what details emerge and how bad this was handled. If the border patrol agent going in and engaging the shooter is accurate it sounds like he had similar active shooter training to what MP’s were getting after the Fort Hood shooting.

    • Actually, they did. They immediately tried to enter the building and continuously tried to enter the building.

        • Entering the building was not the problem. Multiple officers busted out windows and got children to safety.
          Entering the now locked fortified and barricaded classroom door was the problem.

        • Purely speculating on this but is sounds like weirdo asshole had all the time in the world with a classroom full of victims but had limited mobility afterwards.

        • SAFE, we don’t know when the first cops got there yet, but we know that some were there 17 minutes after the first call. According to the briefing provided last night, by that time those officers got there, there were no gunshots heard inside the school and the shooter was already locked inside one classroom with the door barricaded. There were some officers, and we don’t know who the were, where they came from, or how many there were, that got there sooner and did hear gunshots. Those officers did immediately attempt to enter the school and were fired upon as the shooter barricaded himself in the room.

        • jwtaylor, I do not look forward to the lessons learned briefs from this event. I know there will be important takeaways but I have a bad feeling on how sick this guy seemed to be even before response times/procedures get monday morning quarterbacked.

        • SAFE, this dude was pure nuts. He was a cutter, and apparently cut and mutilated his own face because, according to one of his friends “it felt good”.
          The big question is how he so quickly got into the school in the first place.
          Where he got the money to buy 3-5K in gear at once is another question.

        • jwt may have a guess on the last one, if he was working his tax return on the earned income tax credit could cover some if not most of the purchases given the timing of when this shitstorm happenened compared to typical tax season.

        • @jwtaylor
          and his truck was fairly nice too, which, as you said, begs the question. 3-5k worth of gear.

        • SAFE, according to the most recent DPS update that just happened a few minutes ago, both the school door and the room door were open. He walked right in.
          He covered between 40 and 60 ft before he was inside the classroom shooting kids. Less than a minute, really only seconds inside the school before he was in the classroom.

        • jwt that will very likely be on the next round of suggestions for trainings re lock the damned external doors during school hours and keep classroom doors locked during class. May not change the outcome but may also reduce opportunities for minimal efforts on the part of the school.

    • Mill did use that quote, but he borrowed it from Edmund Burke, who said it almost 100 years beforehand in the 1770s.

    • tis saying is garbage. In such situation any GOOD MAN will NOT do nothing.
      Anyone who DOES do nothing when confronted with evil becomes an aider and abettor of that evil.
      Thus the saying is utterly false. A good man WILL do what can be done, or try. Anyone who refuses to deal with the sitution when he can is evil, and part of the problem.

      • It would be more correct to say that evil triumphs when people who know what is right (just, rational, founded on factual truth) choose instead to do what is nice (pleasing to feelings; calculated to make others like us).

        People generally don’t start out completely evil, but simply wanting to get as much while doing as little as possible. People who want to “help” (insulate people who make negative choices from their just and natural consequences, at the expense of people who make positive choices) create perverse incentives for evil.

  3. Easy to second guess, but everyone should know by now you DO shoot first and ask questions later!

    • Yep. Police have no obligation to do anything. They are there to pick up the pieces. And people keep wondering why events like this continue to occur.

      • Shouldn’t be surprised but that does raise further questions. I am guessing there are likely quite a few other tidbits of corrections to the initial reports pending.

  4. I’ve seen reports this morning, with amateur video, and you can plainly hear bystanders urging LE to enter the building. What you do not hear are gun shots. This is prompting speculation that entry had been made, and the suspect killed, at the time the video was recorded. Remember, after the threat is over and everyone is safe job one is secure the scene and preserve evidence. That begins with securing the exterior perimeter. You also want as few people as possible contaminating the scene. Let’s wait for the facts and leave speculation to the media.

    • Hoping you are correct just worried it may be overly optimistic. That said absolutely correct more info is needed before assembling a timeline.

      • SAFE, just saw an “updated” report. This talking head is crediting the Texas Department of Public Safety/Texas Rangers. At the time of the video LE was attempting to breach at two points. The officers being yelled at were assigned to crowd control. As an aside, it was also reported that two of the deceased victims are the wife and grandaughter of local LE. Many forget that LE, their friends and family are members of the whole community. They’re out there among you every day.

        • Yep. The article is totally wrong.
          Multiple officers were attempting to breach immediately.

        • Well, the first thing they ever do at a press conference post-tragedy is brag about how great the first responders were, “if they hadn’t done blah blah blah then many more people would have been killed.” That’s ALWAYS the narrative, first and foremost, “our brave and courageous men saved the day,” to the point of “thou dost protesteth too much.” Every time.

        • Unfortunately, I have, all too often. I picked up on the theme and noticed the consistency of the narrative, going back years. Always the same. I support LEOs and want to believe the best, but I pay attention. You clearly are trying to get your own point across, to the point of dismissing what others say as just wrong. Fine, you’re some kind of “insider” maybe with buddies in the mix, I’m just an observer, but a perceptive one.
          You hear what you hear, I hear what I hear. Keep pounding the rock, you’re not necessarily wrong, but don’t tell me I haven’t been watching. You’re wrong about that.

        • Travis, we started hearing good things about officers arriving on scene last night. Before that, the press conferences hosted by the Governor and the Mayor of Uvalde repeatedly said they were still putting together the chain of events and repeatedly said they were figuring out when and who responded.
          There was some initial credit giving to a single BorTac officer, but that was quickly walked back by CBP itself who pointed out the he did not, in fact, go in alone as was part of a tactical team.
          I don’t have inside knowledge, and nobody has to. Everyone is talking very publicly.

        • Yeah, the article s totally wrong, multiple officers trying to breach immeditely!

    • Now we know that there were still kids in the classroom hiding. At least one bled out waiting for help.

  5. Oh man. Terrible things happen, and the people give up their freedom for security. The immediacy of the horror blots out any long term thinking of the cost of laws and edicts put in place in the aftermath. We saw it with 9/11 (Patriot Act), COVID (lockdowns), and now these events. Congress right now is debating a Federal red flag law. No one is thinking about how this will be abused.

    Same cycle over and over, until our freedoms are gone.

    • If the red flag law is anything like the domestic violence law it will be abused. Good at first then
      just another excuse to disarm the citezens.

  6. Not sure if you’ve been to a school in Texas lately, but they’re locked down like prisons these days. The police were probably locked out of the place until allowed in.

    • Yup. Except for those pesky unlocked rear doors like the one the shooter came in through. Almost like he knew how to get in. Like it was left unlocked for him. But that’s crazy talk. It’s not like the regime has anything to gain from letting a nut kill a bunch of kids over his unpaid phone bill, right?

      • “Consipracy theorist!”

        However, it’s quite remarkable how many “conspiracy theories” have become true of late, isn’t it?

      • Shire, based on my experience the school staff is often their own worst enemy when it comes to security. During my career I was an SRO at four different public schools. Among the staff I saw apathy, laziness (read not wanting to be inconvenienced by locked doors) to outright denial that it could “happen here.” A retired LEO friend of mine is a “School Safety Officer” at a private school. He said he continues to encounter the same problems today.

        • People are always the weakest link in security. They’ll write passwords on post-its and leave them on their desk. They’ll create “easy-to-remember” passwords rather than use a vault/generator. They’ll prop open security doors and leave secure elevators open to secure floors. They share key-fobs and panel codes.

          Then they cry and scream about the failure of the security measures they defeated themselves.

      • Yep, the High School 2 blocks from my house has very impressive front door security…..meanwhile there are several doors on every other side that have no security, people are constantly coming and going through those doors, with NO security.

  7. The police don’t want anybody to go into the building because they need the victim’s to bleed out first. Just like they stood down and allowed rioters to burn cities to the ground. Each time the cops just follow orders from the government.

    The government needs more dead children. Your dead children.

    But not Amy Carter. Not Chelsea Clinton. Not the Obama daughters. They get armed guards carrying machine guns. And their school buildings turned into a fortress.

    • Chris if that is true and ever becomes public accepted fact there isn’t enough security in the country for them. Trying not to don the tinfoil crown this month but news is making it hard.

      • That SRO in Parkland Florida he just stood there and did nothing. While students and faculty were being murdered. The parents of those children went to his house. However the local sheriff’s department decided to protect him from this vengeful righteously angry mob. It’s too bad open carry is illegal in Florida. Except when you’re fishing apparently.

        I understand that scum sheriff’s deputy has been arrested for lying under oath about what he did that day. So if he goes to jail?
        He’ll spend six months a year perhaps?

        He could be like Jesse Smollett who was only in jail for a day or two.

    • Chris no LEO I’ve ever known wanted a victim to bleed out. Especially a child. That was a shameful thing to say.

      • Andy Nyo, I hope I spelled his name correctly, was beaten to the point of brain injuries. All the while the city cops watched. And he was not the only one.

        A really good police officer shot one girl with a knife. To save the life of another girl. In a split second. Fortunately we still have good cops.

        But yes. There are cops who will just stand there and watch as a city is burned to the ground. By a “well armed” mob.

  8. When my kids were in elementary school in San Diego the schools were all locked down, metal detectors, armed police. We had to make an appointment to go on campus and bring our ID. That was because kids were bringing drugs and guns to school at an elementary school. So why don’t we have adequate security at all schools? How could this little insane fool walk onto the campus with the police trying to stop him and then kill all these kids and teachers? Lack of adequate security – the fault is with the school and local government, plus they had advance notice from the killer that he was going to shoot up a school???? Why are our schools not secure? The school, their administrators, the local city/county government, the local police and sheriff all need to be sued by the parents and relatives of the teachers for their inability to offer the children reasonable protection! Shame on them. We do not yet know if the killer was an illegal alien, but his family needs to be held accountable as well. This should never have happened!

    • Apparently, Grampa, that the kid was staying with for the last couple of weeks is a prohibited felon, i.e. no guns should have been on the premises… oops. Guess he just didn’t notice two ARs and a bunch of tactical gear inside of his own home? It wasn’t exactly a McMansion from the looks of it.

    • Most “SRO” in the US are the chickcops or brokedicks that can’t make it elsewhere. IE: Faux “security”.

  9. How about, hardening the entry doors so crazed killers can’t walk in and kill students?

    That’s how you “Keep that from ever happening again…”

    • Geoff. I retired from a school district over a decade ago. Teachers are the absolute worst for believing that the rules apply to everybody but them. The first time a locked door presents any hindrance to a teacher it will be disabled or overridden.

      Each classroom is a separate domain and trying to get these little monarchs to do anything uniformly is a hopeless cause. Unless you bring back flogging.

      • We provide them a building with doors that lock. If they choose to leave them open, point the blame at the school staff…

        • DPS regional director just did an update. The doors to the school and to the classroom were both open.

  10. We need to rethink the entire public school model. These institutions are concentration camps and death traps. Many parents use public schools as free baby-sitting. Vouchers for private schools and home-schooling would be a good start.

    Get the government out of education. Since the Department of Education was established in the late seventies, schools are become far worse than they were. But, as usual, such Federal programs are far more about control than quality.

  11. From this post, it appears that we get what we ask for.

    Do police chiefs recruit candidates for their Bushido character? Or, for their bravery in pursuing and ticketing unarmed compliant motorists? Those few who demonstrate Bushido character; are these assigned to the mayor’s personal security detail or to RSO positions?

    As evidenced by Broward County’s Sheriff’s Department, American society is probably not going to drift toward a Bushido-character police force. Not going to happen.

    Nor is it going to happen that our entire society will drift toward a Bushido-character.

    So, then what? Would an individual:
    – of prudent character,
    – finding him-/her-self facing personal imminent death,
    – with the capacity to defend life,
    – rise to the occasion?
    Is a Bushido character a necessary ingredient?
    Or, is the pessary ingredient simply a modest measure of self-preservation instinct?

    It seems to me that the only realistic course of action is to train and arm as many personnel at vulnerable sites (schools, supermarkets, stadiums, etc.) as possible to conceal carry and be instantaneous responders.

    It would also help if the press could suppress their instinct to earn another nickel for the sale of another newspaper, and to develop a code-of-conduct minimizing the personal identification of suspects. If our society can self-regulate hemlines and necklines as well as grammar and style in newspaper columns, we ought to be able to self-regulate the promotion of infamy by suicidal mass killers.

    • “It seems to me that the only realistic course of action is to train and arm as many personnel at vulnerable sites (schools, supermarkets, stadiums, etc.) as possible to conceal carry and be instantaneous responders.”

      Exactly. Those already inside the building and so in harm’s way have the incentive to fight for their lives and the lives of the children.

      Those outside have to summon up the courage to go INTO harm’s way, an entirely different mind-set.

    • BSO has been trash for a long time. I really was not shocked by the pathetic response in Parkland.

  12. You know happens when you come to conclusions before the facts are known? You get everything wrong. Again. Still.

    Multiple officers attempted to enter the building immediately. More than 80 CBP officers arrived on scene and attempted access. They couldn’t find a key to enter.

    We don’t yet know how the shooter got in.

    • This is the first I have heard of this. You are painting an image of armed cops going from one locked door to another locked door.

      So as gunfire is being heard from inside the building. And children and teachers are screaming for their lives. No cop thought it was a good idea to actually shoot the locks out of the doors so they could get inside???

      I have watched soldiers using 12 gauge shotguns blast the locks and door handles completely away allowing them to then open the door.

      • Depending on the door 12 gauge would be less than effective if the bolts involved in the hinges are meant for heavier doors and a halogen tool would be more appropriate. But don’t know what steps Texas took in hardening schools (sounds like more than most of NY).

        • Most outside school doors have a rectangular window in them. Why not blast the glass. Then reach inside and open the door???

          Or how about just smash a classroom window and go in that way???

        • if they do not have additional lock bars that go into the floor/ceiling and/or smaller windows that would be out of reach of door controls that could be an option. Lot of variables to speculate on but we were moving away from 12 gauge breechings a decade ago and I can only imagine there are reasons for it.

      • I’m not surprised you haven’t heard of it yet, as sensationalist bullshit is pervasive.
        Some group of officers, we don’t now who, how many, or where they came from, arrived in time to at least hear the shooing. They immediately tried to enter and some of those officers were shot as the shooter barricaded himself in a locked classroom. We know that a whole lot of officers continued to arrive (the Sherriff last night said more than 150) pulling kids from classrooms with exterior windows.

    • And you’re speculating as well, unless you have confirmed that information with multiple primary sources who were at the scene and involved in that event.

      • Yes we are speculating. Until we get more information that is confirmed and accurate. Until then it is a very obvious question to ask. This building has Windows that face the outside. And no one thought of smashing them to get inside???

      • My comments are from listening to and watching the CPB officials and Sherriff who were on scene at the time of the shooting, who have provided briefs multiple times a day.

        • You do realize that LE agencies are giving some details of the incident that conflict with other agencies, correct?

        • Thank you for giving me the facts. Seriously. I think I’ll wait until YOU tell me more. Instead of the Media.

      • But we also know that several officers were wounded which means that at least some of them were trying to deal with the shooter.

      • Travis, I’ve said it before. Though it has been a while since I’ve had too. You think you can do it better? Suit up and go getcha’ some! Show us how to really do it!

        • No thanks, I don’t want to be a cop, I like making money. Show me where I said I could do it better? That’s an easy deflection, they’re the ones who are supposed to do it, they’re the ones who are trained. Not me, and not the shooter. He won that day.
          I want to support LE but they make it hard, and they don’t support the people who support them. By your comments here, I deduce you were probably A-OK when you were in the game. What I see out there now is a bunch of tatted-up assholes who escalate the situation more often than not and fail frequently when lives are on the line. The older ones I encounter are reasonable and easy-going, this current mag-dump generation are fuckheads, speaking broadly. And down in Uvalde they failed those kids.

      • No, they didn’t. Windows were immediately smashed and kids brought out.
        We have no idea, yet, what the situation was that kept the officers from being able to get into the classroom. We do know it was a locked, fortified, and barricaded door. We don’t know if there was a window to that classroom. We do know that officers did enter the classroom and were immediately fired upon by a man with a rifle at very close range, one being struck in the head, before killing the shooter. We also know that the first officers were shot as they entered the school when the killer barricaded himself in the classroom.
        There are times when cops have been cowards. This does not appear to have been one of those times.

        • Not saying they’re cowards, they just didn’t get it done for whatever reason. Why is that so hard to admit? You’re a straight shooter, you have an informed opinion, you’ve been in the heat. I believe you and many others if left to their own devices would have made a move earlier in the incident to mitigate a few deaths, and if not, it would have been worth the effort. If what I’m hearing is correct, somebody finally did make a move and ended this thing. I wouldn’t be surprised to learn he made his move independently, and non-verified sources confirm as much.

        • You’re right, they couldn’t get it done “for whatever reason.”
          You don’t know that reason and you don’t know that it could have been done any better.
          When you don’t know what you’re talking about, keep your mouth shut.

        • Heed your own advice, asshole. My opinion is just as valid as yours, just because you’re rude and arrogant doesn’t make you right.

        • You run your mouth calling the officers incompetent when you have no idea what you’re talking about, but you call me rude.
          Grow up.

        • It’s generally best to wait until all the facts are in before rendering judgement. But there are circumstances that are an exception to that rule. One of those exceptions is when the party controlling access to those facts is the same party whose conduct is at issue.

        • Jesus, you’re so lacking in self-awareness that it hard to fathom, and I know behind that need to always be right is a deep insecurity. So, I’ll help you out here, yeah, telling people they have no idea what they’re talking about and to shut their mouth, while YOU don’t know either and are running your OWN mouth more than anybody on this forum with your obstinate defense of LEO when Ray Charles could see they fell far short in this instance, would be considered pretty damn rude to a rational adult. Therefore, I responded in kind. Who made you the arbiter of truth here, anyway, Capt. America? I’ve made my damn point, and I’m far from alone in my observations, and I can tell you’re one of those thin-skinned, self-righteous little roosters that simply MUST get the last word in, so I’ll leave you with this: soak your head in butter and ram it up a dead cow’s ass.

          Of course, any real comeback to that will fall short, though I’m sure you’ll make an attempt, so you’re welcome to the last word, I am OUT.

        • Travis, and the newest update from the DPS regional director only proves my point.
          You keep running your mouth that the cops were incompetent, that they all got to go home, that they didn’t do enough.
          Welcome to the real world buttercup, sometimes you just have to make the best of a bad situation.
          The reality here is that you couldn’t shut up when you didn’t know what you were talking about and you got called out on it. Now you’re all butthurt while acting like you’re the tough guy that would have rushed right in to save the day. Pathetic.

    • “More than 80 CBP officers arrived on scene and attempted access. They couldn’t find a key to enter.”

      80 cops and not one with a breaching standoff on their cruiser shotguns?

      • Is that all they would have needed to get in the door? How was the door hardened? How was the room barricaded?

        • Why are you so bent on defending the police on this? 80+ officers versus one deranged and twisted loser? Have you ever been in a school lately? The doors are solid, they are fire rated doors but they are not Fort Knox. I have a really hard time understanding how anyone could let Little kids be terrorized by an evil calculated psycho for at least 30 minutes.
          We don’t have the truth on this situation so all our judgment is without the facts. That being said, I’m willing to bet that if the dads in that crowd outside the school had the equipment those 80 “law enforcement” officers had they would have been in that room in 5 minutes. Americans used to damn the torpedoes, now they get arrested while there kids are being murdered.

    • There is always a danger of being wrong about the facts when it is the press reporting them. However, IF they are even close to correct about the way this went down and how the responding police backed off, it’s a complete scandal.

      You know what our training is if we encounter a locked door in an active shooter situation coming from about 2015-on? Kick it down. Get in there by any means possible and keep trying until it happens. Once you get in there, engage the shooter and get through obstacles in the same manner. There is no worst case scenario other than letting him methodically murder every kid in there.

      Can’t get through a door? Break a window. Make a goddamn human pyramid if necessary. Ram a patrol vehicle through a wall if you can find somewhere to look inside and see that you’re not going to run a dozen kids over.

      So unless every cop that got there was constantly stymied for an hour because this school had physical security comparable to Fort Knox (despite having unlocked doors when the bad guy came calling) I don’t think these excuses are gonna fly.

  13. Lets face facts most Cops are brave only when the opponent is unarmed and they can put a gun in a persons face during a mundane traffic stop but put them up against armed resistance and most of the cops run like rabbits.

    If the story of the lone cop that did charge in and kill the gunman is true he is definitely A-typical of the breed and is to be honored for his heroic action.

    The news reported this morning the nut case simply walked in by an unlocked back door. One officer did attempt to stop him but it is unclear if gunfire was exchanged.

    One thing for sure if the cops had rushed in student lives would have been saved.

  14. If my one of my kids got shot itd be pretty hard for me not to hate gunms. However that’s reverse logic.
    One of my sons was injured in moto X , I felt like throwing his bike in the creek. Then I calmed down a bit and thought things over.

  15. No-balls cops following ‘protocol’, huh? Details are still kinda sketchy, but 30 minutes is far, far, far too long for a gunman to be allowed unopposed access to victims.

    It’s easy to say that you would be braver, bolder, and that you would have resolved the situation sooner. I’d like to think that I would have done so. But – there have been times when I was bold and brave, and there have been others when I wasn’t bold enough.

    You would think that with a dozen cops huddled around the scene, ONE OF THEM would take action.

    Maybe they were waiting for a ballsy border patrol cop to bail them out?

      • The shooter was a highly-trained, determined individual, a veritable killing machine of 18 who had owned an AR-15 weapon of war for a full two months. How could we expect 150 LEOs with all that gear and body armor to deal with such a badass?

    • Multiple cops did take action. They immediately entered and engaged the shooter, some getting shot in the process. The shooter then barricaded himself in a room behind a locked door.

      • If that were the case why did the TDPS guy state at the press conference that the cops did their job by cornering the shooter in a classroom. The same classroom where he proceeded to kill 20 people. Is containment rather than confrontation now the new cop speak for not doing the job?

  16. To be blunt and to call a spade a spade. Most people and most police officers lack courage. In the past, Texas Rangers and marshals were hired based on demonstrated courage, not on a civil examination score. Courage means doing deliberately putting yourself in harm’s way and still going on. In today’s world, we wimpy sports that have been gentled down which reflects this lack of courage (today’s athletes are afraid of being hit). In the military, we see a stratification of combat fighters with the REMF’s being more and more in numbers. Of course, courage does not correspond to being PC, and in fact they seem to be inversely related. Know that most police officers were hired on a test score and a racial quota. The only sure thing in an emergency to rely on is YOU!

    • Sadly the days of “muscle” cops whom act immediately, the “mechanics” who “tune-up” perpetrators “Dirty Harry”-style, are gone, now we’re stuck with undersized touchy-feely college educated “males”, patronage appointees (like Scitt Pedeterson in Broward County) and diminutive female EEOC/AA hires, posterchild sexual degenerates (Broward County again) with no reservations about seeking shelter during incidents.

  17. Reports this morning are saying the Border Patrol was backed up by a tac team and someone with a key to the door.

    It took 30 minutes to find the school janitor? You know the guy who usually has a key to every door in the building.

    • Look, if the untrained scumbag was in there an hour and a lot of highly trained cops were on the premises for an extended period of time and were unable to take him out for an hour, then it defies credulity to say that LEOs did a good job, despite the narrative they insist on communicating. Not buying it. Not saying I could do better, but they failed, for whatever reason. There were kids in there, Jesus. You took the job to protect and serve your community. Acta Non Verba. There’s a lot of self-annointed experts on this forum, I’ll leave the debate to them. To me it looks like the priority for LEOs is they all go home at night, they succeeded at that.

    • Meh…taking forever to breach a door which an untrained 18 year cretin EASILY breached makes me fantasize about a conspiracy. And I DON’T buy the story spinned by TTAG’s resident war hero. I guarantee we’ll never know. SEE: LAS VEGAS massacre & Newtown(he!! JFK).

        • What makes me think you were there??? You just expanded on a conspiracy theory. “Let in”.

        • No, I didn’t. He could have been let in by a teacher, or a child, or the door could have been unlocked until he locked it or it could have been unlocked until the school called a lockdown and automatically locked the doors. There’s no reason to believe he had to break the door down.
          You’re making some huge assumptions based on zero facts at all.

  18. I’d like to say that the one thing that stands out is that the creep who did it was an LGBTQWhatever and there are plenty of pictures of him wearing women’s clothing. And ABC News actually altered his photos to make him look white instead of hispanic.

    For some reason these points are not mentioned in this article.

    And it looks like the police who showed up were all inclined to do what is right.

    • Articles mentioning it were all over the place yesterday… I just tried to find them again and it looks like those articles have vanished. Current statement seems to be that he was a “dangerous loner” who “got in a lot of fights” and spent a lot of time indoors at home.

  19. As Ms Sensiba points out, everything we think we know is “based on current reports that may later prove wrong or incomplete” but so far this is beginning to look like another debacle by the police.

    According to current reports, the shooter first encountered school police before he ever entered the school.

    Despite having crashed his car and encountering school police, the shooter was able to immediately enter the school through an unsecured door

    Apparently the shooter was finally stopped when an OFF-DUTY Border Patrol agent entered the school to stop him.

    What the hell were the police at the scene doing between the time the shooter “encountered” school police outside the building and when some random off-duty federal officer who was not dispatched and not part of the police unit finally went in and stopped the shooter??

    • Good question. Barricaded? Barricaded? What, he piled some desks and chairs in front of the door? Jesus, the cops have all kinds of gear and body armor, for some reason some people think they are above reproach. We don’t know all the facts but we do know how much time elapsed. Too much.

    • It wasn’t just a single off duty BorTac officer but an entire tactical team that entered the room. This was after multiple officers were shot engaging the killer.

      • Whatever. They were “engaging” for too long, who knew this guy was such a formidable opponent to hold off a police force, freakin’ Rambo I guess. He should have gone into police work, a man that skilled and dangerous.
        I’ve wasted enough time here “engaging.” IF you think this was handled correctly, well, you’re certainly entitled to your opinion. I think they took too long and now are all defensive about it. What’s more important, now that this particular shithead had his way with Uvalde and whooped a small army, is why are we turning out so many sick, twisted pukes in this country? Police are largely incompetent, that’s a given, we don’t need to be in a situation to ever depend on them. The bigger problem is the culture and the people we’re turning out. Something is bad wrong.

        • Remember the old recruiting commercials “An army of one”? This POS will now inspire more deranged dysfunctionals of a certain demographic to “beat his high score”. Despite the hundreds of thousands squandered on the training of each and every badged bungler in Uvalde they were immediately bested by a rank amateur whom likely never expended a single round at a range. F***ing tragic, a f***ing crime. A majority of the blame mudt be placed on the shoulders of those responsible ie. school superintendent Hal Harrell(?) and the entire school.board, they instituted policies which prohibited staff at the district’s facilities from arming themselves.

        • Aside from the response I’d like to know how a kid who was supposedly bullied for being poor reportedly ended up rocking all this high-end gear that would make most LARPers jealous.

          One of those reports is in error or this kid had something else going on to get that kind of scratch/gear.

  20. Recent analysis shows that active shootings at K-12 schools are getting worse, with a significant increase in the number of such incidents since 2017. Yet the vast majority of school shootings are preventable if we didn’t have a completely misguided approach to addressing the problem. Instead of being proactive — focusing on prevention — we are overwhelmingly reactive, with children dying as a result.

    The idea of arming teachers is right out of the gun lobby’s playbook. After the 2012 mass shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Connecticut, the National Rifle Assn. stated “the only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun.”

    This approach is completely reactive and works only after an attack has already begun, often after people have been shot. There’s no basis for thinking this is the best way to save lives, especially in a state like Texas where firearms can be readily obtained with no permit and no training.

    The presence of armed individuals — police officers, security guards, staff or private citizens — rarely dissuades active shooters from going on a rampage. The mass shooting at Robb Elementary was no exception. The alleged gunman, carrying at least one assault rifle, was reportedly confronted by a school resource officer when the gunman as he entered the school.

    If our goal is to keep school shootings from happening in the first place, we have to prioritize prevention over after-the-fact interruption, the way we do with other forms of violence such as bombings. Our laws make it nearly impossible for bad actors to legally obtain the precursor explosives necessary for building large-scale bombs. And there are no elected officials claiming that the only way to stop a bad guy with a bomb is a good guy with a bomb.

    Just as bombings require explosives, mass shootings require guns. To prevent school shootings, we need to seriously address the material threat posed by firearms, particularly when in the hands of at-risk or dangerous people, including those under the age of 21 and those with little or no training.

    In his address to the nation Tuesday, President Biden argued that the path forward requires “common sense gun laws.” As he said, “We know they work and have a positive impact.” Research on gun violence confirms this. States with more guns and more permissive gun laws, on average, experience more mass shootings and more school shootings.


    • “Under no pretext should arms and ammunition be surrendered; any attempt to disarm the working class must be frustrated, by force if necessary.

      -Karl Marx

      You’re always calling the US “Capitalvania” so I assume you’re not a fan of capitalism. And yet these are the words of the most famous and influential anti capitalist to ever exist

      • Leftists and “Liberals” are two different groups.

        The former are revolutionaries who love guns. Some of them even plan to use them for more than practice. The latter are the pro-gun control folks.

        Often the latter are manipulated by members of the former who’s goal is for the *right people* to be disarmed so things can go all Lefty-revolution unimpeded.

  21. Sure sounds like modern policing. I’m not sure how I’d reacted, but I’m not waiting. I’d go in with a club, if my youn’uns were in that situation

      • many of us dont know police tactics. you do, apparently.
        We think of cops rushing into danger and ending the crisis. thats not the case.
        As you pointed, cops go in within 4 min, they take shots, call the tactical team and then proceed with other tasks; for 30minutes. in that time, innocent blood gushes.
        Had you explained that, you would not need to post as often.
        The best punishment for those cops is having those screams in their minds for ever.

        • Ed, the first three officers to encounter the killer were immediately shot by the killer as they chased him into the halls.
          Within seconds he was through steel reinforced doors that he locked behind him and barricaded. He shot the kids within the first few minutes of getting in that door.

      • So you’re saying that 18 year old kid could put shots on target and those cops couldn’t, and they retreated despite having numerical superiority, more firepower, and armor? The kid had a vest with no plates. And the cops waited for a tactical team with what? Better plates? Flash bangs? Courage?

        I accept that most cops aren’t people of the gun. It’s a job, not a calling. But I still expect better, and it sounds like most people do too.

  22. The DPS regional director just did a live update.
    Apparently the entire bit about an SRO attempting to keep the shooter out of the school was false.
    According to the update just finished, the shooter began shooting at the school before he entered it, and entered the school unobstructed. He just walked through the West doors. The doors to the classroom that he walked in were also open.
    From the initial call to when the first officers arrived and began shooting at the killer was 4 minutes. The initial officers on scene that engaged the killer were shot and wounded. They called for backup and them and other officers began evacuating the school.

  23. This and other events such as law enforcement response toward Antifa/BLM compared to pissed off Moms at school board meetings should tell you all you need to know about the majority of “law enforcement”.
    Imagine how different things would be going in this country if every time “law enforcement” came for a Jan 6th person that the person just did not go quietly but rather defended themselves from “law enforcement” with lethal force.
    As mentioned above, imagine if family members/friends of those pissed off moms at school board meetings firebombed the squad cars parked outside. If “law enforcement” want to behave like tyrants then they get treated like tyrants.

    • Was there a short, squat, EEOC/AA butch supervisor at this scene issuing “run & hide” orders too?

  24. This seems an awful lot like Ukraine.

    No one has a clue what’s going on or has happened but everyone’s got a story to tell.

    But fear not, I’m sure Mitch McConnell will get all the facts about this event before he starts urging the GOP to work with the Democrats on gun control legislation.

    Oh, wait, no he won’t. He’s already telling Cornyn to “…find a consensus on some legislation to respond to the shooting in Texas…” with Murphy and Senima.

    • It was just announced Bitch McTurtle tasked his fellow RINO John “Takes It In The” Cornhole (Cornyn) to work with Demoncrats on “solving ‘GuN vIoLeNcE”, the sellout of our community continues unabated.

    • “No one has a clue what’s going on”

      I’m willing to take a stab in the dark. To paraphrase our esteemed VP, Russia big, Ukraine small. Begin with that, and work out from there. It’s kind of like Syria. I’m not even talking about helping to instigate the conflict in the first place, although we probably did that as well in both cases.

      Instead of letting things play out naturally, we arm the little guy. It certainly sounds noble, but what are the consequences of that? Well, in the case of Syria, it resulted in one of the greatest humanitarian disasters in modern history. We did that. Or rather, Nobel Peace Prize Obama did that. What was the end goal and what was the end result? Compare and contrast.

      What did we learn? Here’s my take. There would be a lot less death and destruction in the world without us starting conflicts and arming everyone. No, we aren’t fighting for “democracy.” The powers that be are fighting AGAINST freedom in our own country. No, we’re fighting for power, money, and ego. In the case of Ukraine, we’re fighting for control of a vassal state. It’s like people are oblivious to what we’ve been doing in that country for the past decade.

      • “What was the end goal and what was the end result?”

        The goal was probably the same as it is, in some ways, here. To create and maintain a corridor for natural gas and oil pipelines from the Middle East to reduce EU dependence on Russia.

        We’ve been on an odd tear against Russia since 2003.

        The reason for that is obvious with Bush after Putin spoke ill of invading Iraq but I’m not sure I understand why it has continued with both Democrat administrations. I mean, there’s the obvious reason that the National Security apparatus and Congress are run by geriatrics who seem to still think it’s 1980 but I don’t really get why Obama played along with this (Biden doesn’t have a choice, he’s not in charge of anything).

        • “I don’t really get why Obama played along with this”

          Obama’s CIA made the determination that several heads of state in the Middle East would be difficult to deal with. So, the Arab Spring happened across the region simultaneously in different countries. It was totally because the citizens in different countries were spontaneously interested in “democracy” (at the same time) and NOT a CIA seeded operation for regime change. Remember how Obama kept saying that Bashar al-Assad had to go? The arrogant Obama admin was obsessed with instigating regime change conflicts. Now they think they’re going to oust Putin. The Puppet has accidentally admitted that is a goal. The why is always the same: power, money, and ego. Corporate interest is involved.

        • I could get that if it wasn’t about oil and gas, two things Obama really does seem to detest.

          His real estate purchases indicate it’s not about *climate change*, but rather about control of the plebs. So, why take a stab at something that actually serves to weaken your grip on the plebs?

          That’s the part I don’t get. Obama’s no Octavian, so I’m fairly confident that there’s no master plan here, which makes me wonder what is actually going on in that regard.

          Something convinced him that such a potential loss was worth it for another gain.

        • “control of the plebs”

          Why end there when you could control other countries as well? These people aren’t lacking in the ambition department. The point of the regime change uprisings is to install someone friendly to “U.S.” interests. Sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn’t. See Ukraine and Iran. American Hegemony.

          May 26, 2022
          “Khan says his removal from office was the result of a U.S.-organized plot and collusion with Sharif, whose government has vowed a stern response if Khan violates the ban. Washington has denied any role in Pakistan’s internal politics.”

          Sure they do this all over the world, but our “intel community” would never interfere in elections at home, right?

        • The point that I was getting at is that if you control fuel you control food and if you control food you control everything.

          Manipulation of the international corn markets, partly by using ethanol in our gas, played a big part in the Arab Spring, for example.

          If you want to control food then doing it by proxy is bettah because many people won’t put two and two together. People tend to associate effect with easily causes that are easy to identify, assuming that proximity to effect means cause. Such a thing allows you to exert a lot of control over the entire world.

          The more options there are for supply the less options you have for control because you need to do more things just right and have less wiggle room to lay blame.

          I just don’t see the play from Obama’s point of view. But then, maybe I’m just not short-sighted enough.

  25. Teachers need to be armed. I was a 40+ year teacher and ALWAYS took my weapon to school my last 20 years. It was small and I carried it in my pocket. Never told anyone. It might not compare favorably to an AR, but it gave me a chance. I would do anything to PROTECT MY KIDS! I figured I would deal with the legal stuff later. I practiced every day. Shot literally thousands of rounds until I could put 3 rounds in a 3 inch circle in 2 seconds at 35 feet – the length of my room. I always locked my classroom door. I was the last defense for those precious lives.

    • Good man, Fred. I hope many know now. I hope one or two are even grateful enough and intelligent enough to thank you for it. Cheers.

  26. Hell Uvalde has a damn armored vehicle, the cowardly badged EEOC/AA hires (bloodsucking parasites) instead of employing it as cover to approach and engage the shooter they used it to block parents hoping to rescue their soon-to-be executed children.

      • The vehicle is used by police either inside it and/or behind it as cover to approach the school building, that will draw his attention as he doesn’t have eyes in the back of his head and can’t shoot students while monitoring police once up to the outside walls the perp will have to expose himself to fire in order to engage, there will be opportunities for officers to deploy then outflank him. Anything action is better than inaction in this instance.

  27. We parents should be prepared to disregard LEO instructions and go in unarmed with the goal of soaking up as many bullets as possible. Each bullet we take saves a life.

    • Love of a child + determination + Adrenaline + a firearm is a recipe for success. Adrenaline is a powerful substance, personal experience indicates “serious”, in my case “traumatic” injuries, can be ignored allowing one to complete the task at hand until either you either deplete your blood supply or your level of adrenaline wanes.

      When faced with similar circumstances as we’ve witnessed in Coward County FL. and most recently Urgonnadie TX. the rule now must always be “Lets Dance”.

  28. They handcuffed, pepper sprayed and tasered parents. They waited at lease 60 minutes before they went in.


    They like to claim they are like the military. Bull Shit. Talk about stolen valor.

    You are nothing like the men I served with in combat.

      • Get up to speed the truth is starting to come out. They waited for over an hour to go in. That’s from the police chief. Video of cops pepper spraying family members and putting them in handcuffs. It was also stated US Marshals tasered parents. No video to verify.
        They’re still COWARDS.
        You push through and stay in the fight. You know that.
        Apparently they have learned nothing since Columbine High School shooting.

  29. I’m retired Law Enforcement and have seen this as a problem for years. Yes training is good but does not replace hiring the right people. Sadly there are a lot of Cops out there just for the pay and benefits with no desire whatsoever to do the real job. I told one young Officer that we were not paid for what we did on a daily basis as a trained monkey could do that. We were paid so there would be someone to put his ass on the line when the time came. In short if you are not willing to risk your life for a total stranger then find something else to do.

    • Thank you!

      It seem lost on police today.

      The old timers seem to get it.

      I so unimpressed with today’s younger crowd. In the Army “we get to go home every night” was NEVER on the table.

      I completely agree. If you’re not willing to put your ass on the line fine another profession.

  30. If the first cop refuses to fully engage, that might be explained by personal failings.

    The fact that basically the whole police department showed up and cops weren’t breaking windows and moving towards the threat tells me that the entire department has a staggering failure of leadership and training.

    I would start firing people from the top down and might not stop until going through everyone who was there.

    • What you are demanding is exactly what happened. Cops brok windows, cops immediately engaged the suspect and were wounded doing so.


  32. At this point it’s relatively clear that the police failed on the job. It wasn’t until 70! minutes had gone by that they actually went into the classroom. According to this article they (the town police) actually stopped the border patrol swat team for entering the room for another 30 minutes.

  33. JWT, I have a lot of respect for you but the words directly from the chief of police don’t back up your assertions so far. I hope he unintentionally failed to mention the heroic first officers you’re referencing, but at the moment, per his own words, they failed horrifically.

  34. Well, the story comes out now. Anybody whose opinion matters agrees that what myself and many others (except for the ones who acted like PR flacks for the law) posited from the jump was accurate. Incompetently handled. The oft-cited DPS Director says they did NOT immediately engage the shooter (hmm, didnt someone say here ad infinitim that they DID engage immediately?). Also DPS chief says WRONG DECISION. For a cop to say that means most likely even more damning evidence will be revealed and can’t be covered up. Definitely the citizens of Uvalde know and they are pissed. 40% of the Uvalde municipal budget goes to LEO, they’ll be asking for accountability.
    Just goes to show you you can’t believe the easily triggered blowhards on here running that big mouth and taking shots at anybody who dares question the official cop narrative.

    • What a whiny little bitch you are. I don’t know what day last week you first popped up here but it’s a gift we could do without. Has it turned out that you were right, we still don’t even know for sure but I think yeah, that might be how it went. JWT, well familiar to us all for years now (unlike you, bickle), only ever presented us with what he was hearing/being told along with a bog standard admonition that we don’t know much yet so don’t jump to conclusions. You immediately, in your very first comment to him, jumped on his back like the angry little monkey you seem to be and started putting words in his mouth and suggesting he portrayed things in a light he most certainly took pains to prevent. JWT is correct when he says you owe him an apology. Not over who might be right or wrong but in your unjust accusations, be they intentionally fraudulent or by jumping to unwarranted conclusions too early in the game. So here’s a thought, bickle: why don’t you put yer big boy britches on and find him and make that apology. I watched exactly the exchange between you two and you owe him. I’m betting you aren’t man enough…


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