By Brian Saady
The graphic video from the killing of Daniel Shaver was released after the jury decided to acquit ex-Mesa police officer Philip Brailsford of second-degree murder and reckless manslaughter. The Mesa police department and Mesa police union both supported Brailsford, but it’s important to receive feedback from police sources who don’t have a vested interest in the case.
Norm Stamper, a former police officer who served for 28 years with the San Diego police force and six years as the chief of police in Seattle, gave his thoughts on Twitter. He responded to the tweet by the journalist Shaun King who stated, “Sadly I’ve studied 100s of videos of American police executing non-violent, unarmed people. This is one of the worst I’ve ever witnessed.” Stamper wrote, “One of the worst I’ve seen, as well. Heart-stopping, stomach-turning. No room in policing for cops this scared and ill-prepared.”
Alarming and Contradictory
Is that a fair criticism? After all, police were called to the La Quinta Inn where Shaver was staying because witnesses saw him pointing a gun out of the window of his room. Unknown to the six officers who arrived at the scene, it was a pellet gun that Shaver used for his work in pest control. He was showing it to a woman he had met earlier in the day.
Sgt. Langley then ordered Shaver to crawl towards the officers on his knees with his hands in the air.
However, Shaver and his female guest clearly tried to follow the verbal commands from Mesa Police Sgt. Charles Langley, which were highly confrontational and contradictory. At one point, Daniel Shaver was face down on the floor of the hallway with his hands on the top of his head and his feet crossed.
Instead of ordering one of the six officers to handcuff Shaver, Sgt. Langley yelled for Shaver to rise to his knees. That decision ultimately cost Shaver his life as any unforeseen movements by his hands were considered threatening to the officers. While on his knees, Daniel Shaver put his hands behind his back, which led Sgt. Langley to scream, “Put your hands up in the air! You do that again and we’re shooting you!” A sobbing Shaver begged them to not shoot him.
Sgt. Langley then ordered Shaver to crawl towards the officers on his knees with his hands in the air. He also told Shaver to not move his hands, even if it meant falling on his face. That command essentially acknowledged that it’s really difficult to crawl forward on your knees with your hands in the air, especially for someone who was drunk like Shaver.
While crawling, Shaver tragically did make a quick movement with his right hand toward his hip. And in fairness to ex-Mesa officer Philip Brailsford, that movement could easily have been interpreted as someone reaching for a gun. However, Shaver didn’t have a gun and he was shot dead in reaction to that movement. Most likely, Shaver was trying to pull his pants up.
Should One Twitchy Movement Warrant a Death Sentence?
Raeford Davis, a former police officer who is an outspoken critic of modern law enforcement, adamantly disagrees. Davis watched the video and acknowledged that it was truly frightening when Shaver quickly reached toward his hip. However, he stressed that caution needed to be exercised.
There was no actual danger, only perceived danger.
“Cops have to wait. You have to see that gun…I know that you might get killed, but that’s what it is to be a professional. We talk about cops sacrificing, that’s what you sacrifice…Especially in that particular situation, no way should they fire just on that movement. No way. You’ve got to wait for him to bring something out. And even then, you’ve really got to wait to give him an opportunity (to throw the gun away).”
Obviously, that’s not the typical sentiment from the police community. However, Raeford Davis isn’t speaking from a theoretical point of view. On multiple occasions, he had a gun pointed at him during his four years as a patrolman in North Charleston, SC. (An injury forced him to permanently leave police work.)
Without firing a shot, Davis once had to physically subdue an attacker at point-blank range who was trying to shoot him. On another occasion, he was chasing a suspect who grabbed a gun from his pocket. Davis reacted by pulling his gun and aiming it at the young man. However, he didn’t pull the trigger because the suspect didn’t turn around. Instead, the suspect ditched the gun and kept running. In Davis’s experience, the majority of these types of run-ins result in the person throwing away the gun and fleeing the scene.
Given that experience, Davis was exasperated by the performance of the officers in Mesa, AZ and noted that there was no actual danger, only perceived danger. “They put Daniel Shaver in a position where it was impossible to comply and then they killed him with no gun ever seen,” he said.
De-escalation Should Be the Focus
Davis gave several critiques. For instance, he acknowledged that Sgt. Langley was probably concerned that an armed gunman could have been present in the hotel room. However, there were clearly enough officers available to handcuff Shaver with adequate backup.
Stressful moments require a calming influence and the highest-ranked officer should have filled that role.
Also, if the officers insisted upon ordering Shaver to approach them, rather than cuff him while he was on the ground, it could have been done in a much safer manner for both parties. Shaver should have been instructed to walk slowly backward while facing away from the officers with his hands behind his head and fingers interlaced.
In addition, Davis stressed the importance of de-escalating the situation. These stressful moments require a calming influence and the highest-ranked officer, Sgt. Langley, should have filled that role. Instead, his threats clearly added to Shaver’s nervous behavior. Davis also pointed out that by ratcheting up the adrenaline in the room, it made his fellow officers more likely to have a quicker trigger finger.
(Based on the video, it’s easy to assume that the shooter was the person screaming out commands, Sgt. Charles Langley. However, the shooter was his subordinate, Philip Brailsford.)
How Did We Get Here?
With that said, Raeford Davis feels this is part of a much larger problem with the “warrior mindset” of police culture. It starts at the academy. “The training is very fear-based and it creates more of these types of situations than it prevents,” says Davis.
This poor training contributes substantially to America’s unjustifiably-high police shooting statistics.
Trainees are forced to watch videos of officers who have been killed in action. It demonstrates how quickly their lives can be taken away in an instant, but it also creates a “scenario fulfillment” in which innocuous movements by ordinary citizens can result in a fatal police shooting.
Davis did receive some training in de-escalation, but it was only a fraction of the firearms training. He notes that police officers are trained to look forward to that “moment of ‘glory.’” They’re also unofficially taught the legalese and verbiage if they need to protect themselves from liability.
This poor training, along with other systemic factors such as low accountability and a militaristic culture, contributes substantially to America’s unjustifiably-high police shooting statistics. To be specific, there were 963 people shot and killed by police officers last year, according to The Washington Post’s database.
It Really Isn’t All Cops, but It’s Enough
Despite Davis’s lengthy criticisms of the culture, he hopes that Americans don’t generalize all police officers as bloodthirsty tyrants. In Davis’ estimation, he encountered situations roughly every two months in which he could have shot someone on duty and the shootings would have been deemed justifiable according to his training and police policy.
It’s the humanity of the police officers that prevents a lot more shootings.
That’s six potential shootings every year and Davis considers his experience to be in line with most other officers. Consequently, Davis believes that there would be a much higher number of police shootings if every officer blindly followed their training and protocols. Hence, the vast majority of officers seem to be using a great deal of restraint, especially when there are so many systemic forces encouraging them to pull the trigger and ask questions later.
“It is not because of the training. It is despite the training. It’s the humanity of the police officers that prevents a lot more shootings.” However, to be clear, that wasn’t meant as a reassuring measure. It should be concerning, particularly for the people who give unconditional support for law enforcement.
After all, this is an institution that overtly and inadvertently encourages the use of lethal force. Hence, if an individual officer is prone to violence, that person is operating within an institution that will, in most cases, sanction that behavior.
Brian Saady is a freelance writer who focuses on a number of human rights and criminal justices issues. He’s also the author of four books, including a three-book series, Rackets, which is about the legalization of drugs and gambling, and the decriminalization of prostitution.
This article was originally published on FEE.org. Read the original article.
“warrior” certainly is the wrong word. Ramboism would be closer. Wannabe ramboism. Too much “SWAT” and not enough supervision.
It needs to be the right kind of supervision. See Inigo Carmine’s post about cops who get fired for not shooting when it’s department policy to shoot.
I’d rather be fired for not shooting in an incident that doesn’t require shooting, than shoot someone and be tried for murder. Even with the ranks, you have to know when to question authority because sometimes, your life might depend on it. If in fact ANY department had some stupid requirement to shoot and fired someone for not shooting, they are certainly better off without the department.
Isn’t the real issue if you murder a black man its murder, but if you murder a white guy its okay?
There is no reason they should be equipped with surplus military hardware.
They are not the military.
Objective studies show when the police are part of the community, are peaceful, are friendly and helpful the community supports them.
Current events show when the police brutalize their subjects, they are treated like cruel despots.
When a police officer approaches a citizen his first thought should be, “How can I help this person?”
I was a soldier. I do not believe I would have been a good cop. Others may have been. No one should be excluded based on military service. But the background check and hiring process needs to be very, very intense.
Policing should be based, above all else, on service to the public.
Contrary to what’s often said here, veterans often make the best cops. They generally don’t overrreact, and keep a cool head under stress. In fact, military veteran cops are often the most relaxed officers and are even chastised by non vets for being too relaxed.
chauvin was an army mp.
From the video he didn’t appear stressed,; he just didn’t care.
even the military has its assholes
Vets are some of the best cops and some of the worst cops. Police work is so complex and covers such a broad operating environment that there is no way to properly gauge who will make a “good” cop and who will make a “bad” cop without putting them through the meat grinder. A good school resource officer might make a horrible active shooter responder. A great and level headed SWAT guy might make a horrible domestic violence inspector. MILITARY vets may be great Marines/soldiers but might be horrible report writers or court witnesses. Because of this the standard is, by necessity, “good enough” for most situations. Recent events, even before the current events, have raised the bar on those standards and have reduced the number of people who are willing or even minimally qualified to be police officers. Ironically, it means that departments, who are desperate for people, will hire and promote unqualified people at a time when the call for quality people is at its highest.
“raised the bar” EXCEPT for broad or “minority” quota baby in which case there are NO standards/minimums. Same as in the Obumer recreated US Military.
I agree with there being a spectrum of skills involved in policing, but you chose a poor example. Good school resource officers had better be a good active shooter responders — that’s a large part of the reason they’re in schools.
“Better” and “should” are great ideas divorced from reality. “Is” would be more accurate and the fact is that a lot of officers assigned as school resource officers are not good active shooter responders. They may have participated in the training, but that doesn’t make them competent.
Agreed. I think a big part of it is also that the military holds its personnel to a FAR higher standard of accountability than just about any PD, so someone transitioning from military to law enforcement will likely still have that ingrained mentality of actions and consequences. Where’s real consequences for cops who screw up are basically nonexistent
Nobody learns this in the military. There are some mid-grade officers and senior enlisted who are arrogantly authoritarian toward their troops (people who have voluntarily sworn obedience to military authority). In 27 years in uniform I never met a single member – of any service or grade – who had the “Every citizen shall worship and obey me!” mentality that characterizes every sentence from this municipal-E2 assclown. I hope he’s drawn and quartered.
Mostly true. Although as an anecdotal, I was once dressed down by a just out of OCS Marine butter bar @ NATTC Millington.
My offense? Walking back from the base hobby shop with a double armload of expensive radio control gear & an airplane kit. It wasn’t that I did not acknowledge a “superior” officer, I did so before he even noticed me. Both saying “Good morning, sir” & nodding in his direction over my large packages as he looked up. In the world according to him, I was supposed to drop 2 1/2 mo. worth of pay of easily broken bits, and snap to. Just to satisfy his extraordinarily fragile ego.
Can’t imagine what those under that power-tripping mini-tyrant’s command must’ve went through later on, if that was all it took to set him off. Thankfully, our paths never crossed again.
I went though the process in San Diego. I decided about half way through that it was not the job for me. The interviews went very well actually, but I had one goal: A QRF style team or plain clothed unit. I knew what it would take to get there, and I asked A LOT of questions. Definitely for the better. Glad to have put that “warrior” mindset behind me, and now it’s purely self defense based. I get a little heated on some current events, and have shown up for some even, but it has to be something I truly believe in and most times, it involves the government overstepping and police equally so. I could not imagine where I’d be had I gone through the process in San Diego… I hated living there, so it would not have been good. I do believe a lot of veterans make “good cops” but I also think their experience in the military plays an even bigger role.
You can up with a reasoned post. Congrats.
Way to ruin it. Fuck off. JK… or am I?
YES!
His killer is currently getting a $2,500 a month pension for life, where was the justice for Mr. Shaver? No one burned down Mesa or looted a target.
Just as a follow up, I’m not advocating the current behavior, just asking where was the outrage? He didn’t fit the narrative or the agenda so it was brushed under the rug.
That case was barely a blip on national news. That video was about as bad as the George Floyd video. Horrific!
While I don’t have enough experience / interaction with veteran vs non-veteran police officers, anecdotal news articles tend to support Ron’s statement of them being more calm under stressful circumstances.
I have seen many articles of decent human beings (almost always veterans) being fired from departments for “Failure to Engage” or some similar term. That is, they defused a situation without killing someone. Quick find from Google as example:
https://www.cnn.com/2017/05/11/us/wv-cop-fired-for-not-shooting–lawsuit/index.html
Perhaps the military (on average) trains people better…or perhaps service members are more used to being held accountable for their actions.
Lots of veterans here. Some are/were LEO.
I would not have made a good police officer.
I remember reading a comment by a veteran that he operated under stricter rules of engagement as an infantryman in Iraq than he does as a cop in the US.
As someone who also was infantry in Iraq and also was LE I can say that’s really not true.
It isn’t? Soldiers or marines do a LONG stint in Leavenworth if they kill the wrong person, even if it was an understandable and tragic mistake made in the heat of battle. Cops can execute a man on camera (like in the video referenced in this article?) and get off scot free.
In that aspect, Red you are correct, and I think your response to my post above, actually explains it better then I could.
I was mainly focused on the “ROE”, part of the comment. When I was in Iraq in 06/07-09/10, the ROE was pretty good. Very violence of action focused.
But in terms of the military actually enforcing rules and punishing disobedience, yes you are very much correct. The military is far better at that then LE is. Worlds better in fact.
You were in Iraq for 4 straight years? Yeah… ok… cuz I was there 15 months and that was the max time frame in that period, then you HAVE to do a 1 1/2 year reintegration before you redeploy, and if you were there in 2010, you were not fucken infantry. You were a janitor… the fucken clean up crew, and most likely, a reservist or national guard.
And no, the ROE from 06-10 was not focused on “violence of action”. That was well before you ever got there. I smell bullshit on your little infantry jab. Are you just butthurt because of our last conversation? Trying to one up? lol. Fuck off Ronald. You are a facebook warrior reservist who was in the rear with supply unit, if at all.
06-07 then 09-10. You idiot. You make yourself look like such a fool here I’m not even going to bother refuting your stupidity.
Or… U know… Cuz I shut you down the last time you tried.
I remember that case I believe there was more to that case than was reported personally. I believe his Chief was simply looking for an excuse to fire him.
Stamper is still toeing the line saying Brailsford was “scared and ill-prepared.” as opposed to a sadist on a power trip. Man, cops stick together don’t they? Most of you boot lickers don’t care, half of these comments are you all sharing violent fantasies. To your eyes Mitch lived the dream.
Just let Joe Concealed Carrier go into court and try to tell the jury I thought he was going for a gun when there is no gun. Why do the guys who are supposed to be professionals get a pass. Cops always stick together. Nobody sticks to the party line and talking points better than cops.
And all you Antifa bootlickers are just the different side of the same coin.
You’re stuck on the left/right coin because you’re boring trash. I believe you’re sincere in thinking I’m part of it too, like that you can’t imagine anything outside any more than a bug can imagine other continents. And hey why not assume you’ve got everything figured out? Other people don’t matter right?
Go back to watching Sponge Bob until mom has supper ready. Let the adults converse.
I think that there’s little question in my mind around the idea of malicious intent vs flat out negligence and poor execution by police officers in bad shoots in most (not all cases.) Lets look at a really egregious example:The Castille Shooting. What did the officer do? He thought that the guy had committed a felony and was nervous AF. He then went up to the Castille and told him it was a traffic stop. After Castille said he had a (in his mind legally carried) gun and the cop then freaked out and shot him basically while he was getting his ID. The officer didn’t clearly define the intention of the stop and instead of waiting for backup and handling it like a felony stop he shot him to death.
The NRA should have spoken out in support of Philando Castille. That was manslaughter, there was zero threat to the cop.
100% right.
I watched that video twice and I think police performed a horrible engagement and a really bad (totally unjustified) shoot. Police had multiple opportunities to safely subdue those two people without making them perform multiple complicated maneuvers.
This video demonstrates once again (for the umpteen thousandth time): police can and will claim that any movement justified shooting a suspect. I am absolutely convinced, now, that if police ever start barking commands at me, I am simply going to freeze and not move at all. I will tell them that I am not going to move at all with the possible exception of slowly putting my hands up in the air and I will wait for them to come to me and handcuff me.
I wasn’t going to join my local protest tomorrow. Now I think I just might go and join it to protest such awful training, mindset, tactics, and actions.
Freezing with hands plainly visible has always been my go-to. Too many contradictory orders, you can’t process them, the cops can’t either and following one by definition violates another.
Freeze with hands in plain sight, say nothing and wait for them to either calm down and have one person take over or wait for them to approach you. That’s been my policy ever since I got out of my car, started across the street, got rolled up on by a dozen cars and had a shotgun in my face with at least 10 officers barking different orders at me.
Getting shot in the face with a 12 gauge for being in the wrong place at exactly the wrong time isn’t in my plans but damn did I come close to having that happen.
It’s SOP, and almost purposely designed to give the opportunity to shoot. One cop keeps barking “put your hands up” and another cop will be screaming ” don’t move”. Any response or clarification is replied with “SHUT UP, SHUT UP, SHUT UP”. So you’re dead either way.
There are shitbirds in every large organization. That’s a given.
IME, never having been in LE but having lived in a number of places and having had interactions with LE in a number of them, it seems to be a culture thing in some departments where the shitbirds are rarely, if ever disciplined.
The question is why. IMHO, it has to do with the difficulty of hiring for that department. If a department, for whatever reason, has recruiting or retention issues then the standards seem to slide. Over time that gets to be pretty corrosive and things start to go downhill as a bad rep makes it even harder to hire good officers and standards slip further as a result. Welcome to the death spiral.
Aurora PD is unprofessional as fuck. The other PDs in the area are much better. Why? Well, no one I’ve ever met wants to work for APD. Bad rep, shitty job, not great pay, working with a fair number of assholes etc etc. And so, does it get better? Nope. As soon as officers have enough TiS they move to another department. No one aspires to be APD and almost everyone in APD seems to aspire to get the hell out of that department and into a better one.
Indeed. That’s actually a huge problem facing many departments. There’s a few reasons for this, but it mostly boils down to affirmative action, decreasing pay/benefits when compared to the private sector, and social media.
Affirmative action set the tone that there would no longer be a meritocracy, which is what you want in LE. Pay/benefits, outside of certain major metro PDs, just doesn’t attract those who could do the job effectively. Often on TTAG I see people clamor for some kind of return to the golden days of policing where, officers only carried revolvers and could easily manhandle any suspect. While that is more of a myth, there was a time when officers were primarily men, and relatively fit, strong men at that, who could handle themselves and were confident in the matter. Social media/social justice has also created an environment where any police fatality , no matter how justified, results in mass rioting (Michael Brown for example). The men that would’ve historically gone into LE, instead went into another field where they made more money and had less headaches.
If the Aurora PD is that bad, it’s because the citizens don’t care enough to give the mayor and city council marching orders to straighten it out or be replaced at the next election. The hard part is changing the culture of the department. That very likely requires a new chief from outside the department who encourages and promotes good cops and fires or freezes out the bad ones.
How many city council meetings have you been to? Spoken at? Met the mayor/a council member?
Actually it’s mostly due to the transient nature of the population.
Lot’s of people that are new to Colorado move to Aurora because there are a lot of apartments and it’s comparatively cheap for the Denver metro. Once they get life established, a year or two, they move somewhere else.
“The question is why. IMHO, it has to do with the difficulty of hiring for that department.”
I believe it.
One of the things being proposed this time is the elimination of Qualified Immunity for LE.
On one hand, On a gut level, I like that idea. Cops should be accountable for their actions.
The only problem is, who in their right mind would ever accept a job in LE under those conditions? One questionable move, even just the appearance of a questionable move, and they could be doing serious prison time, in a prison where incarcerated cops have a short lifespan.
When all of America’s police departments start looking like the Detroit PD with their chronic under-staffing, what then? Criminals become emboldened, and the citizens cower in their home, hoping they won’t be targeted next…
When I first read about the Mesa fiasco, I wondered why the cops bothered with such an elaborate procedure that was so difficult for the suspect to follow. It would have been much easier, with no more risk to the cops, to have the suspects come out, one at a time, moving slowly, with hands spread and in plain sight, to be handcuffed. Warn them that an abrupt movement would scare the cops and probably get them shot.
It seems to me that cops fail to think tactically and they make poor use of cover and concealment. They get themselves into bad situations where they have eliminated all options except for shooting. A thoughtless training officer put his trainee face to face with Tamir Rice who was holding a replica of a long slide 1911. At that point, it was too late for the rookie to do anything but shoot. The female cop who shot Terence Crutcher was standing by the left rear corner of his van. It never occurred to her to take a step to the right and use the van as concealment. That could have given her a couple of seconds of relative safety to check Crutcher’s hands before opening fire.
To me this sounds like a bad shooting. From the article “Daniel Shaver was face down on the floor of the hallway with his hands on the top of his head and his feet crossed.” The police officers should have seen that Daniel Shaver DID NOT have a weapon!
Since when is Talcom X (Shaun King) a journalist?
Next you’re going to tell me that Vanilla ISIS (Antifa) are not the real fascists.
Lol. Vanilla ISIS
“Norm Stamper, a former police officer who served for 28 years with the San Diego police force and six years as the chief of police in Seattle, gave his thoughts on Twitter…”
Anyone who was a chief of police in Seattle isn’t an authority on policing, they’re an authority on politics.
That said, contradictory/dangerous commands are a big problem in policing. Unlike stuff like “diversity engagement” this is actually something that training can address. Academies should include simunition type force-on-force incidents where it’s not a simple matter of shoot or don’t shoot. Officers should be tested on their ability to give simple, followable commands to suspects individually and in a group.
The problem is that patrol officers generally converge on an incident and then you have five chefs trying to make soup because everyone thinks they have to be yelling. I don’t know how to solve this other than shift training (as opposed to academy training) and with budgets as they are in many municipalities…
Seems to me that a simple way to mitigate the issue would be to train all cops, at the academy level, that the first officer and only the first officer on the scene is the one to issue immediate commands. If you’re there first it’s your responsibility to get things under control, if you’re there second or third it’s your responsibility to assess the scene and shut up
Maybe that would be the way to do it. Another issue is that departments simple do not have the same training in many areas. They do very basic things differently.
I worked in a place where we would, whenever possible, have people sit down before handcuffing them. On a curb, on a bench, whatever. That was trained through the academy and used in practice. If someone started fighting it was a much shorter ‘fall’ to the ground. But if you went to the regional academy nearby and tried that you would get smoked. Instead you were taught that you must have the person stand there, put their hands behind their back, placing their palms out to the sides. Then you would step in from behind, grab one hand and place a cuff on it, double-lock the cuffs, then repeat the process in the other.
Looked real nice in the academy. Never saw it work like that once in the field.
But maybe you could at least try and make training very similar within a state.
So NIMS. The popo nationwide are supposed to know/use NIMS. They certify such before qualify for FED $. Has been this way since soon after 9/11
FD manage to easily figure out/use. Why not the popo? Because they have the big budget (and the guns).
Same as the military
Rule #1 – SOMEONE is ALWAYS in charge (and responsible party).
Rule #2 – Ranking man on scene first is in charge (Incident Commander) until passed to a superior.
Rule #3- Law/crime problem the cop is the IC. Everything else where something useful need done the FD in the IC – get your car out of the way and go direct traffic/eat a donut or something.
“The Mesa police department and Mesa police union both supported Brailsford,..”
The Mesa Police Department FIRED Brailsford post shooting for having an unauthorized modification to his rifle. An aftermarket dust cover with “Now you’re f***ed” (or phrase to that effect) engraved on it.
The Union was able to get him rehired so that he could “medically retire.”
$2,500 per month PTSD medical retirement
If you haven’t read The Rise of the Warrior Cop by Radley Balko, it’s worth the time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rise_of_the_Warrior_Cop
Guys, I’m a vet and a retired LEO. The first time I flew in an airplane the Army made me jump out of it. I really don’t believe my military training did a lot to do with my LE experience. I remember once sitting in a friend’s gun store. I was minding my own business while a couple of locals and citizens were debating how to best clear a room. My buddy asked me how we were taught to do it in battalion. I looked up from my magazine and said, “We tossed in a couple of frags and hosed the room with auto weapons fire.” There was a pause and one of the cops said, “I don’t think we can do that.” I had at least two opportunities to use deadly force in my career. No questions. In one my partner and I disarmed him of his Makorov. If I had been alone I would have shot him. In the second I guess he believed me when I said I would kill him if he didn’t drop the knife. He did, but I still had to fight him to get him in custody. Military and civilian LE are two completely different animals.
I’ll second that. Good point. While I do Believe it’s everybody’s constitutional right to own a firearm, and my state require classes, or a class, for a concealed carry permit. But if your prior service, they count that as experience. I know from experience in the military, that some people were not firearms capable… There’s always that one guy at the range who takes all fucking day to qualify. And that was with rifles. Most soldiers don’t even handle pistols. On the other hand, I was fortunate, I was chosen for every marksman class that was available. Being that I was a combat engineer, it’s probably not as much as your infantry classes, but far more than most. I’ll put it this way, I did foot patrols in Afghanistan with soldiers that I was not confident would have what it takes to return fire effectively, and when it did happen, the soldiers usually ended up getting put inside a vic for the next 10 missions.
If that was a member of my family, that cop would be dead by now. Just saying.
Big talk, little bitch.
The suspect did what he was told to do by the police officer. And then he was murdered. It’s all in the video.
The officer who shot Michael Brown in Ferguson did the right thing. It was a fight for the officer’s gun.
On the other hand this Mesa cop should be in prison for killing an unarmed suspect.
The problem with government and civilian labor unions is that they support the “sh#t” in their own group. Instead of getting rid of fellow workers that make everyone look bad.
The fact that a cop has prior military service doesn’t mean he’s a bad guy. Anyone who thinks that is just a bigoted cop hater.
That pig should have been found guilty and executed. Maybe someone with courage will finish the job.
Training and mindset is what it’s all about. Police should be trained to not start trouble, and how to diffuse a situation not make it worse. Thy should be trained to look after each other when one of their own gets out of control. To step in and say stop.
The other thing, to always look for the least likely path to violence in serving a warrant. As in no more no knock raids when people are normally asleep.
Oh, and recon of the warrant address has to be a must. How that SWAT team could miss all the children’s toys in the yard and outside the front door, the minivan with the child seats installed, and just bash the door in and toss a flashbang into the child’s crib!?!?!
That was a ton of incompetence and missed opportunities to not screw up!
Also, the guy they were after did not live there, and wasn’t there at the time.
Faulty info from an informer, which is another criminal trying to negotiate lesser charges in return for information.
I have no need to watch that video again. Makes me sick to my stomach just thinking about it. Those police officers terrorized and murdered that guy, plain and simple. Every one of them should’ve been fired, and the order-giver and the trigger-puller should both be in jail.
To police you’re just a reactive target.
Sounds like (at least some) police need NRA Personal Protection Outside the Home training. If the police had to follow the same laws as concealed carry permit holders (no qualified immunity, for the officers or the department) they’d be sure to get that de-escallation and legal use of force training.
Quite frankly, if I were in the same situation as Brailsford, I would never have had the suspect move after he was on the ground with his hands on his head.
If Brailsford was a regular citizen, he would have been held to a higher standard and convicted of at least voluntary manslaughter, and personally sued for wrongful death.
These double stsndards and qualified immunity must go away (along with civil asset forfeiture without a conviction).
The cop also had a dust cover on his rifle that said “you’re f***ed”. I think that says something about his mindset.
avatar Montana Actual says:
June 4, 2020 at 22:01
And no, the ROE from 06-10 was not focused on “violence of action”. That was well before you ever got there. I smell bullshit on your little infantry jab. Are you just butthurt because of our last conversation? Trying to one up? lol. Fuck off Ronald. You are a facebook warrior reservist who was in the rear with supply unit, if at all.
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Thanks Montana, for your elevating conservation hear at TTAG.
*here
No problem.
I don’t see cops as “bloodthirsty tyrants.” I see them as nazi wannabes who couldn’t pass the brownshirt exam.
9×39,
Ironically, I was just joking with friends about the stereotypical “butter bar” sidewinding up the pier so he can collect a salute from every Sailor out there!
Again, I’m not denying that military leaders can be arrogant (or outright rude) to lower-ranking servicemembers. Of course, when you accepted subordination to a more authoritarian leadership style, you did so due to the necessities of combat and NOT to satisfy an “extraordinarily fragile ego”. You should never have had to put up with that.
My point was that neither that “butter bar”, nor even the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, is ever led to believe that he is an “authority figure” over Joe Civilian in the street – whereas a disturbing percentage of police seem to come right out of the “academy” (i.e. boot camp E1s) seeing themselves that way.
I remember this story from when it happened. I also remember that Brailsford used his personal AR-15 in the incident, which was allowed under the policy at the time. He also had “You’re F*cked” inscribed on the dust cover, which was ruled as inadmissible because it was too prejudicial. If that isn’t an example of “warrior mindset,” I don’t know what is. Ultimately, the issue was a mortal stakes game of Simon Says with multiple Simons playing at the same time.
I remember this as well living in Mesa at the time.
I remember the guy crying and begging not to be shot, freaking out trying to follow Brailsfords commands a boom, Murdered on the spot.
It was sickening.
Brailsford is a MURDERER, pure and simple. He should be in prison.
I have watched the Daniel Shaver video, and I have searched YouTube for other videos on the Mesa Arizona police force. There are several interesting points….
1. Brailsford was not yelling the orders. The guy yelling was a police sergeant, who has since retired from the force.
2. The sergeant was following a script. There are a bunch of videos on YouTube of Arizona cops screaming at people that they will shoot and kill them.
3. There is a Doomsday Preppers episode in which the prepper’s ten year old daughter responds to a drill by aiming an AR-15 style rifle and screaming that she is going to kill the intruder.
These are tactics somebody worked out.