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Pope Francis waves to crowds as he arrives to his inauguration mass on 19 March 2013.

To Robert Farago, Sara Tipton, et alia:

As it seems you are not inclined to do real research on the matter, below you can find the translated transcript of the relevant section of the Holy Father’s extemporaneous address to young adults during his recent visit to Turin, Italy. It isn’t short or methodical, but it doesn’t say what you have said it says . . .

And thanks to you, Sara, passionate about theater. Thank you. “I think of Jesus’ words: To give one’s life.” We spoke about this now. “Often we breathe a sense of mistrust in life.” Yes, because there are situations that make us think: “But, is it worthwhile to live like this? What can I expect from this life?” We think, in this way, of wars. Sometimes I have said that we are living the Third World War, but in pieces. In pieces: there is war in Europe, there is war in Africa, there is war in the Middle East, there is war in other countries … But, can I have confidence in such a life? Can I trust the world leaders? When I go to give my vote for a candidate, can I trust that he won’t lead my country into war? If you only trust men, you have lost!

It makes me think one thing: people, leaders, entrepreneurs that call themselves Christians, and produce arms! This gives some mistrust: they call themselves Christians! “No, no, Father, I don’t produce them, no, no …. I only have my savings, my investments in arms factories.” Ah! And why? “Because the interest is somewhat higher …” And a double face is also a current coin today: to say something and do another. Hypocrisy …l But let’s see what happened in the last century: in ’14, ’15, in ’15 in fact. There was that great tragedy in Armenia. So many died. I don’t know the figure: more than a million certainly. But where were the great powers of the time? Were they looking elsewhere? Why? Because they were interested in war: their war! And those that died were persons, second class human beings. Then, in the 30s and 40s the tragedy of the Shoah. The great powers had photographs of the railroad lines that took trains to the concentration camps, such as Auschwitz, to kill the Jews, and also Christians, also the Roma, also homosexuals, to kill them there. But tell me, why didn’t they bomb that? Interest! And shortly after, almost contemporaneously, were the lager in Russia: Stalin … How many Christians suffered, were killed! The great powers divided Europe among themselves as a cake. So many years had to pass before arriving at “certain” freedom. It’s that hypocrisy of speaking of peace and producing arms, and even selling arms to this one who is at war with that one, and to that one who is at war with this one!

I understand what you say about mistrust in life, also today when we are living in the throwaway culture, because whatever is not of economic usefulness is discarded. Children are disposed of, because they are not developed or because they are killed before they are born; the elderly are disposed of, because they are not useful or are left there, to die, a sort of hidden euthanasia, and they are not helped to live; and now young people are disposed of: think of that 40% of young people who are without work. It is in fact a rejection! But why? Why are man and woman not at the center of the global economic system, as God wants, but the god of money. And everything is done for money.

The full text of the address can be found here. It’s a little long, so I have not quoted it in its totality.

It is quite clear that he was not addressing the manufacture of guns per se. He was addressing a distrust in government and the industrial-military-complex, to borrow a phrase from Eisenhower. He sympathizes with a generation that has lost faith in society because of the influence of the war profiteers in government and in business, including the investors, that do not care about the people that suffer in war. (One only need look back to your June 20th article on the $1B in military surplus sales over 2 years for an example of this.) And then he goes on further to condemn the overall mindset of pursuing wealth instead of God especially at the expense of others, much as you would expect a holy man to do.

Now we may agree or disagree as to said influence, the bombing strategy he refers to, his reasoning, and the overall tone of his statement. But it cannot be said that he is carte blanche condemning weapons and violence. This is corroborated by statements he has made in the past about the obligation of the strong to protect the weak, particularly in light of the violent advances of ISIS and subsequent persecution of the Christian (mostly Catholic and Orthodox) population in the Middle East.

In full disclosure, I am a gun owner (Beretta 92A1), I am a Catholic, one heavily involved in my local church, and someone who gets weekly headaches from the sitting pontiff because of what he either says or does.

I get it; I really do. It was low hanging from from other news sources that confirms preexisting biases about the situation and provides effective click-bait. I think we can all agree that that sort of stuff belongs at BuzzFeed, not TTAG.

Regards,
Joshua Korf
Houston, Tx

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101 COMMENTS

  1. For me the biggest problem is that people like csgv and mda will likely not do research either and use the pope’s words to spread more misinformation and Antigun propaganda… As they likely already have…

    • Of course they will. That’s the only way for them to make their case! But we and TTAG don’t need to follow suit and end up providing a forum for religious disagreements. It’s TTAG, not TTAC (The Truth About the Church).

      • Yahoo doesn’t have “news” anymore, just progressive/ leftist/ statist talking points. They gin up those type headlines that don’t match the accompanying stories, and link to more leftist bilge scum from salon, huff po, etc.

  3. I think we can all understand the Pope’s meaning without patronizing spin from papal apologists. This collectivist Pope has abandoned the teachings and replaced it with his threadbare brand of leftist politics.

    Really, image shaping and instantaneous revisionism belong to the propaganda peddlers, not on a site dedicated to the truth about guns.

    • “This collectivist Pope has abandoned the teachings and replaced it with his threadbare brand of leftist politics.”

      You mean he no longer believes that Jesus is the son of God? That he was crucified, died… That he was raised from the dead on the third day?

      In other words, he has not rejected the essentials of the Christian faith; your panties are in a wad only because he disagrees with you about climate… Because we all know Jesus preached extensively about the hockey stick…

      Here’s what that liberal said on Easter in April 2015: “Out of love for us, Jesus Christ stripped himself of his divine glory, emptied himself, took on the form of a slave and humbled himself even to death, death on a cross… By his death and resurrection, Jesus shows everyone the way to life and happiness: this way is humility, which involves humiliation.” BUT HE DOESN’T SHOOT ARs so he’s a COMMIE!!!

    • The totality of the Christian teaching is captured in the creed, which goes as follows:

      “I believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible.
      I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Only Begotten Son of God, born of the Father before all ages. God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father; through him all things were made. For us men and for our salvation he came down from heaven, and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary, and became man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate, he suffered death and was buried, and rose again on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead and his kingdom will have no end.
      I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son, who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified, who has spoken through the prophets. I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church. I confess one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen.”

      Can you point out which parts of it, specifically, the Pope has abandoned?

    • Republicans have done a really nice job tying their pet issues to religion, effectively capturing voters like you. It really is fascinating to watch.

      • Good point. Maybe the holy man should have said, simply, “I wish for peace among all mankind and all nations, and hope we do not ever raise arms, guns, bombs against one another again” ….oh, and, “no gay, no abortion (SOP), racism, subjogation of women, t.v.mega-churches should not steal money, etc., etc…the end”

  4. Thanks, my source was the US media and they had it wrong. I don’t feel bad about not checking the source, I know the computer can translate, but honestly I expected the Popes words to be reported fairly accurately, I guess not.
    I remain a bad Catholic, but a little happier to be one….. now to finish that AR build !

    • You and me both. Those news reports had me worried he was saying a lot more than he did. It did give fuel to the disarmament lobby and the Catholic haters who are on the pro gun side.

  5. Easy to see how this interpretation could be arrived at, considering this Pope’s tendancy to lean left. Global warming buy in as an example.

    • Understanding that humans have caused an enormous, unquantifiable amount of change to this earth and by effect, it’s weather systems, doesn’t make you a leftist. But it’s easy to see why that interpretation could be arrived at, if you accept what you’re told without consideration for veracity.

      • …an enormous, unquantifiable amount of change

        Cannot be quantified, but has to be enormous, right? It also can’t be verified, but our betters keep telling us it is so. Surely, those telling us how we should live our lives and why wouldn’t mislead us for any reason.

        Contradictory
        adjective
        1. asserting the contrary or opposite; contradicting; inconsistent; logically opposite:

        • Please pull your own head out of your bottom and think about what I said, instead of focusing on semantics. Enormous and unquantifiable was a poor choice of words, but I wrote more than the two words you chose to focus on.

      • Aren’t we coming up on almost 20 years of no rise in global temperature averages? I’m short: of the climate not actually changing?

        If climate change does end up killing off humanity, it will be the fault the alarmists who have never made a coherent argument for their position.

        99% of climatologists are not in agreement, and “because Bill Nye said so” is insufficient.

        The actual arguments on the subject have booked down to a cessation to warning which would seem to invalidate the models which are used to claim it’s just a pause; and a model that legitimately produces a hockey stick shape…even when fed soccer scores.

        Maybe all of that analysis is totally wrong, but no one is successfully refuting any of it. And I’m including left wing media outlets too. I’m not only tuned into right wing sources, and I’m totally open to changing my mind with a convincing case, but the advocacy side doesn’t seem up to the task.

        • >> Aren’t we coming up on almost 20 years of no rise in global temperature averages?

          Not really, no. It’s one of those cherry picked number games.

          http://www.forbes.com/sites/petergleick/2012/02/05/global-warming-has-stopped-how-to-fool-people-using-cherry-picked-climate-data/

          >> Maybe all of that analysis is totally wrong, but no one is successfully refuting any of it. And I’m including left wing media outlets too. I’m not only tuned into right wing sources, and I’m totally open to changing my mind with a convincing case, but the advocacy side doesn’t seem up to the task.

          Your problem is listening to “right-wing sources” and/or “left-wing sources” on matters of science. You need to listen to scientists instead. And by this I don’t mean people who say they’re scientists, or people who have a diploma from a diploma mill that their family runs, but actual scientists with an education in the relevant field.

          With respect to AGW, the scientific consensus is pretty much settled: it’s happening, the only discussion is how fast, and what the effects will be. The only controversy outside of that exists only in the media and politics, and is 100% manufactured.

        • @int19h: Whenever someone uses the words “consensus” and “settled” to describe science I just have to laugh.

      • Ok, let’s agree that global warming is an anti-gun conspiracy, but, maybe, in the end, if we can figure a reasonable way to burn less carbon fuel might be a good thing (ask the people living within 100 miles of Bejing on a nice summer day)

    • You don’t have to be a leftist to realize Louisiana is losing a football field’s worth of wetlands every 30 minutes.

      • The nozzling of the Mississippi channel with massive flood control did that. No flooding, no new soil, and the last batch keeps settling. No warming necessary – and no warming involved.

      • “You don’t have to be a leftist to realize Louisiana is losing a football field’s worth of wetlands every 30 minutes.”

        And you don’t have to be of ANY political leaning to realize that this, and other things LIKE this, have happened hundreds and thousands of times before man appeared on the scene, and will happen again once he is gone. All that requires is a basic understanding of Earth’s history and the fact that there is no such thing as a static “normal climate”, once you get outside mankind’s tiny personal viewing window on same.

        To think that man can even quantify, let alone control and predict into the future, “his” effects on a system of this size and complexity belies a level of arrogance that is heretofore unknown.

    • Somewhat off-topic question for you …

      Is the climate changing? (Hint: it always is.). Is it in a direction that appears favorable to humanity? I’d say likely not.

      So then, if we for the moment bypass the question of “why” or “who caused this,” what should we be doing about it?

      As an analogy, if a burglar is pointing a gun at you, does it make a difference whether he got it from his Uncle Bob or from Slim Bits on the corner of 5th and D?

  6. I am trying to understand why any Catholic would even attempt to use logic in regards to any other issue while still calling themselves a Catholic, one of the best funded religious businesses in the world.

    Hey Catholics- please explain to me why you pray through saints. Also explain why Catholics revere the virgin Mary and make up all kinds of silly, non-Biblical stories concerning her chastity.

    Are we really meant to believe that Joseph never had sex with Mary after Jesus was born? Plus, the Roman Catholic Church is the ONLY sect of Christianity that disputes the fact Jesus had brothers, even though it is spelled out in the Bible multiple times that he did.

    SHM

    • Thanks for the insults. If you want to have a discussion of the Bible and doctrine, take it to a different site.

    • Why do you accept the veracity of the Bible as cannon, since it was assembled and declared to be so by the Catholic Church?

    • I’ll take this up:

      1) Why revere Our Lady, Mary ?

      Because she said “yes.” Through her came the salvation of the world and no other human being has that dignity.

      2) Why we concern ourselves with non-Biblical stories concerning her virginity ? (chastity is something else)

      Because the Church selected from a great many good books the ones that you now revere in the collection we know as the Bible — While those were deemed most fitting and necessary for the instruction of men in their salvation — that minimum set of books does not mean all the rest were necessarily inaccurate, of no use , or were wrong. They tell us that Mary was consecrated a Temple virgin as a young girl, whose tasks involved the keeping of the temple precincts and particularly making and maintaining temple linens and vestments. This tradition was noted in the Old Testament vow of Jephtah, whose daughter was not killed as some suggest, but she was dedicated as a virgin to the service of the Lord in the Tabernacle, and hence “mourned her virginity” (i.e. — she would have no children), and this is explicitly then a tradition of the Jews.
      Because of ritual cleanliness it is suggested that when she came of age into womanhood, the laws of niddah required that she quit the Temple precincts. So ther was a practice of marrying the virgins to older widowers, since a single women with no husband or children had little place in that time. Joseph was selected for her. Because of Mary’s Temple consecration, Joseph was not expecting to have relations with her at all since this would be contrary to the Law. He already had children of his own, who were Jesus’s brothers in law.
      When a husband of a temple virgin died, especially for older women no longer concerned with the laws of niddah — she might have returned to the Temple, as with Anna, present at Jesus dedication in the Temple, who may then have assisted and overseen the young Temple virgins at their work.

      The perpetual virginity of Mary is a sign of the faithfulness of the Lord in promises made to Him, and yet also that the providence of God will not be bound by them, while still honoring and fulfilling them.

      • Or instead of running wild with fanciful tales of Mary’s perpetual virginity, one could just read what the Bible actually states.

        When the text refers to Jesus “mother and brothers”, it actually means real half-brothers born of Mary and Joseph, after Christ, by normal means. Mary was a virgin when Christ was born. That is what matters. Christ was therefore “not born of Adam – the representative head of fallen humanity”, but still “born of woman”. He is thus fully God and yet also fully man. He alone is able to restore mankind to God.

        There is no point to Mary remaining a virgin after the birth of Christ. She was a married woman, and she certainly had sex later on. That is clearly inferred by the text that states: “…BEFORE they came together she was found to be with child from the Holy Spirit.” (Matt.1:18). That “before” tells us that later on they did “come together” in marital union. We see the same point in Matt: 1:25 “…but knew her not until she had given birth to a son.” After the Lord was born, Mary and Joseph lived the life of a normal married couple sexually speaking.

        Marrying a woman, and permanently not having sex with her, fundamentally violates the moral law of God regarding the essential nature of marriage. “The two shall be one flesh” (Genesis 2:24, Matthew 19:5, Ephesians 5:31, Mark 10:6, 1st Cor. 1:16, 1st Cor. 7:3-5).

        I think the RCC insistence on the perpetual virginity of Mary reflects it’s unbiblical and unhealthy view of sex. The RCC seems to view sex as a type of “necessary evil” required to maintain humanity. The Bible on the other hand presents sex within marriage as a very good thing, and blessed of God.

        By the way, Mary, while righteous by faith, and extremely godly in character, and deed, was still a fallen sinner needing salvation like the rest of us. She needed the blood of her Son to atone for her sin, just like we all do. There is One Savior, and He deserves all the glory.

        • I’m with you Art-and Ralph. NOTHING I read(in this incoherent ramble) makes me change my mind about Francis. FWIW I thought the 2 former popes Benedict and John Paul were men of God-and I am not catholic. Barry Soetoro “claims” he’s a Christian.

        • The brothers and sisters were Joseph’s previous wife. Joseph was a widower when he married Mary, but yes in all likelihood Mary was not a forever virgin.

  7. wow, so much for religious freedom! The popes got big balls, to make any kind of a statement about a free nation and its people! Give me a break! Exclamation point! Ladies and gentlemen our freedoms are well under attack in this country and across the world everyone’s got their own opinion on how we the people should live our lives! They need a minor on business in worry about their own business and lives, and quit telling me how to live mine!

  8. “Bottom line, every large mainstream news source is in the business of disinformation. That’s the heavy freight they transport, every day. Stories with no context. Outright lies. Omission of vital data. Claims of ‘overwhelming consensus’ on issues where no such consensus exists. Internal censorship of their own budding investigations into high-level crimes. Disguised partisan opinions. Utter reliance on ‘experts’ as sources, who deliver official propaganda as if it were fact. They manufacture reality for governments, corporations, and other controllers of society. And yet… many of these outlets are drowning in red ink. They’re going broke. The ‘greatest news outlet in the world’, the New York Times, keeps refinancing its debt to stay afloat. The powers-that-be must rescue mainstream media, in order to keep broadcasting their false pictures of reality. Who will step up to the plate? Perhaps some social-media Godzilla with CIA connections…” (The Underground, Jon Rappoport)

    One of the most accurate assessments of mainstream “news” available. Yet here at TTAG, Wash post, Huff Post, NYT, FOX, CNN, ect articles are discussed and debated as if they are credible and meaningful.

  9. Even in the greater context it does not sound good, if only because it will resonate with hoplophobes everywhere as the “guns are icky” meme.

    Coming from a gun-hating family I wondered, when I bought my Beretta 92, if I wasn’t corrupting myself somehow. It took forging ahead and reminding myself that none of my principles had changed to appreciate the role guns can play for good, as opposed to simply making me complicit in an ever-running game of Might Makes Right.

    Sure, it would have taken the speech off-topic to address the strong protecting the weak, but how are we not both to blame for investing in weapons-makers even more directly than those who funnel savings to them?

    To me the speech comes across as a plea to hold the higher moral ground and choke off the supply of weapons so that we may have peace. I believe the better path is to live peacefully so that someday these weapons will be harmless relics of darker times. Either way, the presence of wars around the globe indicates that there are still plenty who are ready to make war, so the purpose of my weapons remains viable and I’m not ashamed to own them or to have compensated their manufacturers for building them.

  10. I still am not sure where the Pope was going with his exposé.

    His condemnation of the Allies for failing to bomb the train tracks leading to concentration camps in World War II sounds misplaced: flying bombers across Europe to concentration camps in Poland was basically impossible. (As far as I can determine, the German Vehrmacht would have shot them down long before they reached the rail lines.)

    As for his condemnation of “war profiteers” (paraphrasing) — whether the actual manufacturers or investors — it seems difficult to establish responsibility. If “war profiteers” explicitly produced arms for ISIS with the knowledge that ISIS would use those arms to slaughter innocent people, then of course those war profiteers have just as much blood on their hands as ISIS. Now, what if those “war profiteers” sold arms to a government which claimed that they would only use those arms to defend the people of their nation … and ended up using those arms to kill innocents or sold the arms to ISIS? That cannot be the fault of “war profiteers”.

    • >> His condemnation of the Allies for failing to bomb the train tracks leading to concentration camps in World War II sounds misplaced: flying bombers across Europe to concentration camps in Poland was basically impossible.

      Not all concentration camps were in Poland. And I very much doubt that it was physically impossible – after all, Western Allies have repeatedly bombed the Romanian oil fields (e.g. Operation Tidal Wave), even though it was further east than Poland.

      • The purpose of the bombing was to end the war, to end the suffering for ALL, as quickly as possible. Diverting the majority of aerial bombing from strategic or tactical targets to block death trains would not have guaranteed prevention of those deaths, it just would have moved the suffering from one group to another by extending the war. And the train occupants probably still would have been killed, just in a different fashion.

  12. Which was the first Pope to be infallible? I guess its got to be after after Galileo for obvious reasons! Anyhow the guy clearly isnt infallible today or indeed above political maneuvering.

    • The doctrine of papal infallibility is a little more complicated than the pope saying “soccer is the best sport in the world” and then all catholics being forced to accept it. Statements made by the pope on things not concerning doctrines of the church are not and have never been infallible. Papal infallibility only applies to certain magisterial declarations.
      Please educate yourself before offending the 25% of America that calls theirselves Catholic, especially on a website that is supposed to be about guns

    • Papal infallibility only applies in matters of the church. It caused a major schism in Christianity long before Galileo.

      • Papal infallibility did not even exist as a doctrine at the time of Galileo (and for several centuries after).

    • Not trying to start an argument (because arguments over religious beliefs/doctrines are silly… people gonna believe what they believe) but just wanting to clarify a misconception you appear to have (though i could be wrong, if this following is old news to you my apologies). The Catholic doctrine of papal infallibility does not apply to every word he utters or every thing he writes. There is a very limited set of circumstances/times when his pronouncements are considered to be absolute church doctrine. A common/general term for him using this authority is to say he is speaking “ex cathedra” (from the chair). Him having a question/answer session with children/young adults in which he is not making any pronouncements on fundamental church doctrine definitely does not apply. Again, you are more than welcome to agree or disagree with the principle of papal infallability and I won’t try for one second to convince you one way or the other. But its incorrect to represent the catholic church’s belief as that every thing he says is instantly absolute church dogma.

  13. it cannot be said that he is carte blanche condemning weapons and violence.

    It can be said carte blanche that he is calling you a hypocrite if you own stock in S&W or CMC or FNH or Raytheon or Lockheed Martin or a mutual fund that does.

  14. Oh, give me a giant break !!

    If this pope can’t adequately explain himself, then get another pope. He said dealers in death who claim to be Christians are a cause to wonder about them. OK, these same dealers in death are criticized for not destroying the Nazi rail system (they did), and not bombing the death camps (and kill whichever innocent prisoners were surviving). This pope is the most openly political since probably the Inquisition. He is a leftist. Fortunately, whatever the pope says (if you believe in popes) that is not strictly related to matters of faith are just the rambling musings of an old man. Let it go. We know virtually every head of state in the world wants disarmed civilians in order to assure control. The pope is no different.

    Can we talk about something that matters, now?

    • The military industrial complexes can be used for good or evil as anything else. If it were not for the American military complex, the world would be a much worse place. Yes, I know the US heavy industry and military complexes have their faults and yes, we have been involved in a few questionable wars.However, even the Germans stated that had it not been for US lend lease, the great Soviet offensives would have never taken place.

    • If it were not for Ford, GM, Chrysler, Kaiser, Studebaker, US Steel, Boeing, Goodyear, Firestone, Curtiss, Grumman, Winchester, and a host of other companies; we and our allies would have lost WWII.

    • Ummm, he is supposed to be a man of peace, it’s kinda the dudes job to condem weapons, guns, violence, wars, etc., whether they are noble, good, or pure evil. Wish he mentioned as a side bar that every conflict today involves parties who are backed by one flavor of religion or another. Food, shelter, water, religion, guns have always gone well together.

  16. “It’s that hypocrisy of speaking of peace and producing arms…”

    I guess I don’t see hypocrisy there. If you speak of peace, but do not produce arms to defend yourself, the “peace” you get will only be at the mercy of your conquerors.

    • Yeah– complete contradiction given the world situation with ISIS and their beheadings, throwing gays off of roofs, drowning folks, stoning them for their beliefs, and the pope condemning world powers for not doing enough, but then criticizing the folks willing to make the tools to enable taking meaningful action.

      • the pope condemning world powers for not doing enough, but then criticizing the folks willing to make the tools to enable taking meaningful action.

        Yep, you’re a bad person if you make bombs or own stock in arms manufacturers that make bombs, but then he criticizes powers for not using bombs that he criticizes arms manufacturers for making.

  17. Luke 11:21 “when a strong man, being well armed guards his own home, his possessions are secure.”

  19. The translation above has the Pope saying: “It makes me think one thing: people, leaders, entrepreneurs that call themselves Christians, and produce arms! This gives some mistrust: they call themselves Christians! ”

    (Who did the translation? Was he speaking in Italian, which I believe is not his native language? Is that why the translation is clunky, because the original in Italian was clunky? Or just a poor translation?)

    Anyway, it does definitely appear that he’s saying that it is, in his opinion, proper to question whether someone who produces arms is truly a Christian.

    I realize that if whatever concept the Pope intended to convey went from Argentinian Spanish in his mind, self-translated into Italian, and then through some other translator was translated into English it is quite possible that the infelicitous turn of phrase in English may not be what the Pope actually meant. However there has been sufficient time for the Vatican to provide a ‘correct’ translation, or some other correction, if they are at all bothered by how the media has presented it.

  20. Hey you Doubting Thomases,
    Remember one Thing…

    “Papal Infallibility” The Popes words are the Word of GOD!

    Go in Peace Catholics!

    • Actually, no. Only when the pope speaks ex cathedra is he speaking infallibly. This pope (thank God – and I mean that) has not done that.

  22. I’m Catholic, a gun owner, and I read the whole text. He clearly says that firearm manufacturers AND ANYONE WHO OWNS STOCK IN THOSE COMPANIES cannot call themselves Christian.
    “…people, leaders, entrepreneurs that call themselves Christians, and produce arms! This gives some mistrust: they call themselves Christians! “No, no, Father, I don’t produce them, no, no …. I only have my savings, my investments in arms factories.””

    Sorry, Sara is correct.

  23. But tell me, why didn’t they bomb that? Interest!
    My uncle did bomb the German rail lines and depots with his B-26 made mostly of GM parts and assembled by the Martin plant all of which are part of the military industrial complex.
    This clown speaks ex-cathedra? He needs to go back to the Sandinistas.

  25. Since the Pope has released this document, it has been revealed that the Vatican is one of the largest investors in Beretta Arms, who provide weapons to governments and others world wide. Hypocrisy, indeed.

    • That’s an old rumor, that’s been around for at least 3-4 years. Beretta released a statement saying that it wasn’t true back when it first started making the rounds.

  26. Forgot that mom and mother in law made gun turret motors for GE which went into the Boeing B-29 Superfortress program; so I suppose they are evil too.

  27. An open letter to Mr. Korf.

    I hate autocorrect. Many of us do. But right now I would like to be grateful for it. For when I tried to write your name above my phone corrected it to “Lord”. No I’m not kidding. I think that is more than sheer coincidence. I think you would like to be lord over others. By the haughty sarcasm you uttered from your gold encrusted high pulpit I can read you pretty well, I think.

    On to the meat of my missive. I am a Christian, head of the security team at my church, and a sincere follower of Jesus Christ and have the fortune of rarely being unarmed, especially at church. I do not require a geriatric jackwagon to translate the Bible through the rose colored glasses of whatever social fad the current pontiff sees is trending on his Twitter account. I thank God everyday that God sent Jesus to earth to be the middle man between us, to put it quite un-elegantly. I have no use for the Pope, no true Christian should, and I think he should spend some quality time with his Bible instead of spouting off his political views in the sheeps clothing of religious teachings.

    Smugly yours,
    Sheepdog6

    • Only if it turns out it’s actually real. But then again, you’ll be in good company.

      Really though, sometimes I hope hell is real just so I can see the faces on all the people who believe they won’t be going there when they join me in the ole lake o’ fire.

      • Don’t forget that you’ll have to share it will all the guys who did believe, but happened to believe in the wrong thing – which I suspect will vastly outnumber us atheists.

        It would especially suck if it turns out that some relatively obscure sect, like, say, the Mormons, are the ones who have the truth, and everyone else goes to hell, including that 1.2 billion Catholics, 400 million Protestants, and 300 million Orthodox. We’d better get used to being a minority even in hell 😉

        • Mormon heaven is pretty cool. They get their own planet (just the men, anyway). Kind of like playing your own eternal version of Sid Meier’s Alpha Centauri!

          I still maintain that the Norse have the best afterlife. All day is spent fighting and dying on an eternal battlefield followed by unlimited, all-you-can-eat beer and bacon by night!

        • I’m pretty sure it’ll get boring after a while. Basically, imagine a never-ending WoW grind.

          Oh, and so far as I know, dying in Valhalla still hurts.

    • Yes. If you don’t believe you will go to hell. 1. Confess with your mouth that Jesus is the son of God. 2. Believe with your heart that God raised Him from the dead. Those are the requirements. Rom 10:9,10.

        • Maybe they can mouth the words? I’d say poor blind-deaf-mutes. Also, poor anybody-who-didn’t-get-the-message-on-how-the-magical-ritual-must-be-performed-exactly-in-this-manner.

          Funny how a serial murderer in the US has a better chance of knowing this routine than and isolated native tribe in the middle of the Amazon.

  30. As soon as I learned he was a JESUIT I knew we were in a world of hurt. That cult should not be inthe Church. They started Liberation Theology and mixed socialism with New Age “christianity” and are Marxists hiding behind the cross and Bible.

    Ray
    also a Roman Catholic.

  31. Having lost its independent statehood in 1870, in the 1930’s the Vatican was strongly focused on striking a deal with Mussolini ….trading support for fascism and silence in the face of horrors… in return for a sovereign Vatican City. The deal was made, but represented to many the Catholic Church’s voluntary surrender of any moral authority regarding the Shoah. That the willingly-silent church should come out today and suggest that the U.S. should have not only destroyed the Third Reich’s military juggernaut, but done it with a target selection scheme favored retrospectively by the Vatican, which had itself been collaborating with the facists for its own earthly gains, must shock the conscience of those possessing an accurate knowledge of WWII-era Vatican behavior.

    The New Theology leftist popes inspire me to laughter when they talk up their love for the poor and condemnation of the rich and the defensive weapons makers, all preached while dressed in exotic silk robes, and jeweled rings, speaking in vast marble and limestone temples that attest to the ability of mammon and moralizing to co-exist in a harmonious system of feature-complete religion.

  32. Why are we discussing religion and climate change? TTAG, thanks for the secular article pointing out that the Pope was not talking to POG but that it was used by the Antis out of context.

    If your panties get tight if someone mentions Catholicism, then the problem is yours alone. Don’t we POG want to be left alone? Don’t we want others’ opinions to not turn into votes that violate our rights? Then dish out the same respect. Sure Catholicism is responsible for a whole lot of pain. What group isn’t?

  33. A Pope would be better off not involving himself in issues of this type. It causes problems and divides rather than bring together.

  34. Pope Francis might explain his past close cooperation with the Argentine junta in his next extemporaneous comments. Not a good example of Christianity. Neither is his past protection of the Corpo de Pedifili within the Catholic clergy.

  35. I am a practicing Catholic. The Church is run by men, many are pedophiles.
    The Pope was a cardinal in 2000 but said shit about Argentinas dirty war.
    He really needs to talk to big pharma and all the governments in the world, not weapons manufacturers.
    A funny one: years ago I read where the previous pope was wearing Prada red shoes. A few days latter I saw a new book our daughter was reading: “The Devil Wears Prada”. That says it all.
    Christ would sell the Vatican and all its treasures to feed the poor. The Pope is like our politicians and all the others leaders of our major institutions: a complete asshole and narcissistic.
    Don’t mix Christ words with what men have twisted them into, similar to what the SCOTUS has done with the Constitution.

  36. I’m sorry, but don’t you ever call him holy again. The only ones deserving of that title is the Trinity-and don’t you forget it.
    Signed,
    A ticked 5pt Presbyterian

    DV

  37. I’m not religious in the least bit, I don’t go to church I just don’t see the need. but that’s for another day because this is not the place. But when I see how someone who many people look to and respect for whatever reason, speaks out and has the nerve to say such things makes me only I think he is just like everybody else (he’s not special, still just a human being) in the world. Only in this case I see hypocrisy. Weapons have been around since humans have learned to use a rock or stick. Religion…..it just really confuses me when the opinions expressed as “the worrd of God” or INTERPRETED as such, happen to be bent to reflect an INDIVIDUAL’s opinions/stances. I believe that Catholics have a rough road ahead if the Pope is going to continue his stance. ……what do his PSD use? Hmmmmmm…..Shouldn’t God be enough to protect him???? See what Im saying??? Im not trying to bash him or religion or followers but hypocrisy is everywhere yet people want to try to control how EVERYONE ELSE lives.

  38. And then he goes on further to condemn the overall mindset of pursuing wealth instead of God especially at the expense of others, much as you would expect a holy man to do.

    Pursuing wealth and pursuing God are not mutually exclusive. It’s the old Puritan Christianity that created the American work ethic. God gave us hands and a brain. Unless he is a moron, he put us here to produce. To be good stewards of the Earth, but to produce nonetheless. What is wrong is the pursuit of crass materialism. That is different from wanting nice things for yourself. But hardcore materialism is different from pursuit of wealth.

  39. This is the guy that uses an ATHEIST scientist to justify his comments on global warming, just think about it….. Organized religion is a man made thing, and has its man made problems that go with it. Look beyond religion and seek a relationship with God.

  40. I know enough about the Pope’s collectivist, Marxist loving leanings to know what he truly means. Just like I know enough about Hillary to know that if she makes a vague comment about guns, you can bet your life savings it was really anti.

  41. Step out from behind your bullet proof glass and armed guards before you tell me how hypocritical it is for a Christian to manufacture guns. You’re benefiting from the product and have a plank in your eye, Your Holiness!

  42. Congrats ttag for taking your discipline like a man!

    Can I still say that? If not suck it up and deal with it like a man!
    trolololololol,ollolollolololololololo

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