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Why do we carry guns? This is why: “A shootout among members of several rival motorcycle gangs in a busy shopping plaza in the Central Texas city of Waco on Sunday left at least nine bikers dead and nearly two dozen other people injured, creating chaos on a sprawling parking lot packed with afternoon shoppers, law enforcement officials said.” Members of two gangs just happened to pick the same restaurant? Well, not really. “Waco police officers were already at the scene when the confrontation unfolded because they had anticipated problems as hundreds of bikers from at least five groups gathered at the shopping plaza.” . . .

When the excrement inevitably hit the air handling equipment,

The fight spilled into the parking lot, initially involving just fists and feet, but escalating quickly to chains, knives, clubs and firearms. …

“When (police) approached the scene, there were multiple people on the scene firing weapons at each other,” Sgt. Patrick Swanton, a Waco Police Department spokesman, said at a news conference, referring to the officers in the area of the restaurant. “They then turned on our officers. Our officers returned gunfire, wounding and possibly killing several.”

As the New York Times reports, thankfully and miraculously,

No officers, no shoppers or bystanders were injured. The authorities said their decision to place officers outside the restaurant before the gunfire erupted most likely saved lives.

“There were so many rounds fired from bad-guy weapons here, it is amazing that innocent civilians were not injured here,” said Sergeant Swanton, who added that investigators were expecting to recover about 100 weapons. “In 34 years of law enforcement, this is the worst crime scene — the most violent crime scene — that I have ever been involved in. There are dead people still there. There is blood everywhere.”

Moms Demanding Disarmament in America and other anti-gunners have immediately seized on this incident to demand/hope that Texas abandon its move towards permitted open carry. Nope. Crime- and the fear of crime it engenders – is a powerful motivator towards greater gun rights, not away. At least in the Lone Star State. These days.

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    • Say What? Ya think if Open Carry had passed last session and a bunch of locals were open carrying at the counter and tables, these gang bangers would stay around? Nope I believe they would have moved their OK Corral moment to the nearest remote ranch.
      Not going effect chances of Open Carry passing at all. BTW: typical motorcycle gang members have prior felonies, which would be illegal from the get go. These are not your white collar motorcycle club members.

      • In this case, I don’t believe regular open carriers would be hanging around all the biker gangs…stay away from stupid places, things and such.
        Politicians are under no requirement to make up laws based on rational thought or reality. To many, optics and donations for the next election cycle are what matter most.

        • Not a biker bar, but Twin Peaks isn’t exactly a Pop’s Soda Shoppe. If management was actively courting bikers (as the story asserts) while the chain is looking to bring in regular folks, you do end up with potentially a lot of unsuspecting people who are suddenly at risk.

        • @TXGungal, Patel the manager was known for his “biker days’ at that restaurant.

      • Open Carry at a Breasteraunt like Twin Peaks with multiple patch/rockers congregating will do nothing to prevent what happened.

        Gun as amulet. I’ll pass on that. In fact, Ill pass on staying at the restaurant:

        It’s one thing if ONE patch is at the restaurant, let alone the three to five I’ve read all wearing their colors. Spark meet tinder. On top of that you have five different LEO agencies making a perimeter around the restaurant. The whole setup from a self defense standpoint is a no brainer. Poster meme for dont be in stupid places with stupid people, potentially doing stupid things.

        One of the safest things that people did was run into the restaurants freezer for cover and concealment. Getting under the table on the floor is another. Neither of those initially involve drawing your gun.

        Instead both involve getting off the X of your seat and beating feet or dropping to the floor IMMEDIATELY and avoiding the “freeze” and watching the violence unfold.

        Which all begs the question of why you hung around in the first place or took your family to a breasteraunt versus the mexican place 25 feet away.

      • TX Gungal: Do you find it strange that the police was already there? They were called to go there before any trouble what so ever broke out. research tells me obama and al sharpton set this up. Why? Because he wants Texas to be a hostile State. Why? So he can start marsial law, that is the reason for the Jade Helm 15 to be set up in Texas. Why? because this is the beginning of obamas take over of America. He wanted it by Oct. 2015. He has removed most of our Military. obama fired 197 Senior Racking Patroit Military Officers loyal to their Military Oath, support, protect,defend the US Constitution, against all enemies foreign and domistic , replacing them with handpicted, Liberal / Socialist / muslim / Political Operatives in uniform. This is Treason and a threat to National Security. Do a little research and you will be surprized at what you find. Hillary is worse than all of them. I can’t believve they would let her run for president. She is the biggest criminal in America.

      • LMAO…They wouldn’t stick around because what…One or two people would have been carrying a handgun? Please. Who do you think you are? Do you REALLY think a hardened KILLER would stop and say “You know what, guys? Let’s pack it up and head outta this town. G.I. Jane over there took her local firearms safety course and she really scares me to SKITTLES!”

        These are gangstas, lady. Hardcore. Not all of them are killers but let’s be honest here. There could have been TEN of you…TWENTY of you, PLUS law enforcement…and these guys would still open fire on each other. And your best course of action even IF you had a gun is to GET THE F*** OUT OF THE WAY. You think your open carry is gonna scare them? If YOU can open carry, so can they. And when s*** hits the fan between to guys or two clubs, what do you think you’re going to do? You going to step in and take control with your S&W? You could have an AK 47 and they’d still laugh at you. Or just kill you.

        I’m not opposed to Open Carry. People have the right to bear arms. But I’m from the hood. I’m under no illusions that more guns in more hands is gonna keep us safer. Almost all my friends as I was a young teen and into young adulthood were gangstas and drug dealers. You know how they got their guns? They’d come back to the garage we hung out in countless times with variations of the same story. They had broken into the house of the law abiding gun owner. He slept comfortably, knowing his gun was locked in his safe/under his bed/ on his dresser/ under his pillow. They tie him up, take his money, take ALL his guns and ammo, and if he protests, maybe they beat him near death. Cocky people who feel the need to brandish weapons at all times are exactly the type that put more guns in the hood. And they all said the same thing. “It won’t happen to ME! I’d shoot them before they took MY guns!”

    • I’m in the TX senate chamber now waiting for the hearing to start. I just registered my support for HB910. If anyone else is here and wants to visit, email me smith981 at gmail dot com.

  1. It’s great when criminals kill each other off (only good criminal is a dead one, and nobody can blame the cops for it); not so great when innocent bystanders become “collateral damage”, though…

  2. I dunno why this would kill open carry–or at least why it should. We’re dealing exclusively with well-known criminal ( I’m thinking of the Bandidos in particular) bikers toting concealed weapons. Heck, might make for a more compelling case in favor of open carry. In similar fashion, if no innocent bystanders or LEOs were hit, I fail to see how this could be the “worse crime scene” a 34-year officer could have seen. But that’s just me I guess.

      • Sadly, you have a point. That’s why I put in that part about “should”.

    • I would think that if he had been in Waco for 34 years the worst crime scene would have been the Branch Davidian home, in which 83 Branch Davidians were killed by the FBI and ATF.

      • I’m willing to bet that scene had been sanitized pretty thoroughly before the Feds let any local cops anywhere near it.

        • Try “bulldozed”–Yep, site was bulldozed while all the investigations, trials, etc were still going on. Feds managed to “lose” the massive steel entrance doors to the compound, the doors are apparently sitting next to Indiana Jones’ Lost Ark, they haven’t turned up to this day. Which is significant, as they could have provided physical corroboration to the Davidians’ claims that the feds fired through it, which the Feds deny.

        • Waco’s cops told the feds to go away, don’t do that, etc, they were not involved in this stupidity, it was all, 100%, ATF. And nobody went to jail. But they were removed from the scene for the FBI to take over and kill all the witnesses. And nobody went to jail. I don’t believe anybody lost their job or was even demoted. But do not blame Waco’s cops for that, they were not involved and told ATF to not get involved.

        • Actually, the ATF guy that was in charge was transferred to another division, where evidence was prepared for trials I think. Which makes sense, IIRC he as the guy who essentially lied to a fed magistrate about the place being a drug lab (it was not, it had an institutional-sized kitchen that gave off a big heat signature–but ATF knew that, they had a guy on the inside) so they could get the use of the Bradleys. So ATF put him in a position to lie and make up evidence for trials. The FBI honcho was demoted, but then a few months later was promoted well above the position he had held at Waco.

  3. Cuz real life Sons of Anarchy is the thing to do now. Who looked the most like Traeger?

  4. Worst crime scene he’s ever been involved in? Apparently, he wasn’t at the Branch Davidian complex.

      • The locals and the press were held something like 2 miles away, witnesses are bad. Even then telephoto showed the tanks at work. I wonder what would have happened if the commanding general at Ft Hood had complied with his orders to provide the FBI with ammo for the tanks’ main guns? The man earned his pay that day, was probably fired the next. “Not only no, but hell, no!”

    • That wasn’t a crime scene. The ATF is above the law, so no crime was committed.

    • The Branch Davidian thing didn’t happen in Waco, it happened in Axtell, Texas, miles out side of the Waco city limits. Swanton is a stand up guy, he was in my office twice last week.

    • I’ve only seen mentioned those two, plus the Bandidos. An article I saw said that two other gangs were probably involved, and that the three mentioned are allies.

      I know zero about biker gang taxonomy, and I’m just so happy now to be forced to learn it.

      • I’m clueless on biker gangs (motorcycle gangs, not bicycle gangs, even though there are real assholes in road bike gangs…) but all I have heard is that the Cossacks are a ‘patch’ club.

        I’ve heard references to ‘2-patch or 3-patch’ what the hell is the difference? What’s a ‘One Percenter’?

        • Let’s see if I can boil this issue down quickly: There are “one piece,” “two piece” and “three piece” motorcycle clubs.

          The “one piece” clubs are sanctioned by the AMA. Two piece clubs are somewhere in between the one-piecers and the three piecers. The three piece clubs are “outlaw” clubs (ie, non-approved by the AMA – an issue dating back to the Hollister business in ’47). A three piece club will have their club name as the top rocker of the colors, the chapter location as the bottom rocker, and the crest or logo as the centerpiece of the colors.

          Three piece clubs have their own rules and protocols, and they are often be very strict in how they admit new members. There’s a lot more involved that sending in your dues, riding the right brand of bike, etc.

          A “1%-er” is someone who has given much of their life to the club. These guys are the heart and soul of the club to which they belong. They’re at the top of the club hierarchy.

        • One percenters are what make up the outlaw motorcycle clubs. 2 patch means the club name + emblem, 3 patch includes territory. think of it like this: if a pair of 1%ers both have “california” patches & they are not allied clubs, expect a dispute

        • Agree on some of the bicycle riders. A few months ago in a neighborhood near mine, one broke out the windshield of a car parked legally on the street and in a bike lane.

          Not that I officially approve of this, but a group of guys saw him do it and took out after him in another car, and put a bullet hole in the frame of his bike.

      • The Scimitars and the Cossacks are aligned clubs, but not the Banditos. The Banditos have been running meth in Texas for a long time, and have been pretty territorial about that. Ask the Angels. I’m sure there are a few wannabees mixed in there, but the Banditos aren’t your dentist and chiropractor crowd.

    • Geez, at least the Crips and Bloods knew enough to wear blue and red. What do they do, ask the guy to turn around so he can read his otherwise identical gang affiliation banner before he shoots?

  5. “There were so many rounds fired from bad-guy weapons here, it is amazing that innocent civilians were not injured here,” said Sergeant Swanton”. Would someone kindly remind the sergeant that he too is a civilian – and while you’re at it, also thank the Waco police for a job well done.

    • He did say INNOCENT civilian. So, maybe that’s how he qualified himself from the referred set?

    • Most, if not all, police (and a huge section of the general populace) don’t consider themselves civilians. They think in terms of civilians, law enforcement, and military as three distinct groups.
      And I’m sure a lot of cops don’t think they’re any better than everyone else, but using the word ‘civilian’ is an easy way for them to differentiate between people who are police and those who aren’t.

      • Another word is needed, then, somewhere, to distinguish non-military from “non-military and non-police” because I agree that sometimes it is necessary to have a short word to mean “non-police.” If nothing else, in a better day and age, it could remind them of who they are supposed to “serve and protect” (and yes I know they are legally under no obligation to do that much) as opposed to “tyrannize and harass.”

        “Civilian” shouldn’t be it.

        • Citizen should be the word used.

          However, in the instances LE does tend to use it, it’s used in a most derogatory manner.

        • I would say Citizen, but that word wouldn’t apply to tourists, exchange students, permanent residents (such as myself), and the like.

          Maybe “nopo” for non-police? Or does that sound too silly?

    • Police are lawful combatants under the Geneva convention. That puts them in different category from civilians. Police have the status of paramilitary forces. Forget what Radley Balko and the rest of faux Libertarian Reason crowd says. They have no interest in improving the performance of police. They objective is to undermine the legitimate authority of public law in general. Why do you think they supported the gangs and rioters in Ferguson and demanded that the Mall of America surrender their property rights to the protesting mob?

      • The police are not a paramilitary force nor do they “◾Conduct their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war” – which is the 4th criteria of the Geneva Convention definition.

        Your definition is not correct and the police are not lawful enemy combatants

      • tdiinva,

        I don’t know what label best describes my stance on the individual, government, laws, and rights. All I know is that government is NOT a god who defines right and wrong … and government lacks legitimate authority to enact and enforce many of the laws that they have enacted and enforced. And I know that property owners are not gods who can stipulate anything and everything.

        I support the original basis of our nation’s founding: we are a Common Law nation with local, state, and federal governments who have narrowly defined responsibilities to enforce (not define) Common Law and promote (not provide) general welfare of the People. I do NOT worship government. I am NOT an anarchist. I simply want government to stop meddling in people’s lives like all people are toddlers. If a person infringes on someone’s rights, damages someone’s property, or violates a contract, then government can be involved to help remedy the situation. If a person is abusing a common resource (such as a State or National Forest), then government can be involved to stop the abuse. Otherwise, government should, by the very definition of the founding of our nation, shut up and stand down.

        Finally, I hold human life and justice above property rights. I have provided examples before that clearly illustrate the limited scope of property rights … such as the fact that a property owner’s “property rights” do not empower them to rape or murder a guest or forbid outside life-saving measures for a mortally injured guest. And yet you would condemn me for “violating” the property owner’s “right” to rape or forbid live-saving measures for guests.

        I have no idea why that notion bothers you so much. I wish you would reconsider your position.

    • Tom, after the first few leather jackets walked in, you would have had the good sense to walk the hell OUT.


  6. A friend in Waco said he heard on the scanner police reporting hand-to-hand, melee weapons and guns up the yin-yang. Sounded like the opening of Gladiator to me, I think the word “sword” might have been said but he was talking too fast.

  7. Yes we need to be armed. Reason 1: When seconds count police are minutes away 2: A lot of us can shoot better than the police. (I know I can).
    “Waco police officers were already at the scene when the confrontation unfolded”
    Like I said police can not shoot straight. The club shootings never should have been able to happen, seeing as the police were already there.

    • What were the cops supposed to do before the fight broke out? Lock down Waco and pre-emptively arrest all the bikers?

      And I’ve seen this claim of being a better shot than the cops before. I don’t know your background or experience, Frank, but just being accurate on a stress free range proves nothing.

      Who would I rather trust in a shite storm? An accountant who shoots well at a range and went to gunsite for a weekend or a veteran cop?

      • I get where you are coming from, JWM, but I have seen plenty of cops absolutely suck at shooting at a “stress free range.” I may tend to trust that accountant who shoots regularly at the range a bit more than a cop who shoots once per year for quals.

        • A lot of TTAG is pretty quick to jump on the “cops can’t shoot” bandwagon. Some police are very pro-gun, and very good at shooting. The Garland PD officer who took out two terrorists with a handgun comes to mind.

          There’s much to be desired with police marksmanship training and attitudes, but to make the “cops can’t shoot / I shoot better than cops” comments when the police did a good job just sounds asinine to me.

        • Yes some cops are great shots but an inexcusable number are not. I have seen far too many cops at static ranges that shoot poor compared to even some beginners I have worked with. The presence of a badge may fool some people as a measure for how well someone can shoot but those paying attention know that it just as likely to be an indicator of the opposite. It seems lost on a lot of people (or purposely ignored) that the bulk of live police firearm training takes place at square ranges.

          Being a veteran cop is far from a guarantee of firearm expertise or even being able to handle one safely. I have seen more than one cop empty a pistol by cycling every round instead of dropping the magazine first. Boy the confidence just soars. I certainly do not have any more trust or confidence in a person that shoots poorly when there is no stress (regardless of how they dress up or who they work for) than someone that doesn’t have to rise to the occasion to at least shoot well at a square range.

        • Robert, I’m not sure that matters.

          The traffic cop DID engage the gunmen, and he did shoot them both, probably taking the immediate fight out of them, as bleeding wounds have a way of making you re-evaluate your life choices. Then SWAT cleaned up with their usual enthusiasm.

          Doesn’t make the one cop any less of a hero just because he didn’t get kill credit.

      • I want someone who can shoot and not seize up….being the “trainer of last resort” for several departments, I know that sadly many cops are not good shots and really don’t expect to have to ever use their firearms.

        • A lot of missing….of the point here. In the midst of a shitestorm do you want a man with street experience and who may in all likelyhood be a vet to boot backing you or that nice guy from accounts recieveables who holds a tight grouping on a paper target?

          In my limited experience with cops I’ve seen them deliver a baby in a pickup, go into a burning building when others were running from same, deal with the godawful aftermath of poor driving skills…..

          Simply trumpeting your shooting skills as a qualification makes me wonder about the person doing the trumpeting. FNGs and virgins will get you killed.

  8. “They then turned on our officers. Our officers returned gunfire, wounding and possibly killing several.”

    Seems the cops in Texas can really shoot. I guess they’re not forced to carry Glocks with 12-pound triggers; … for “public safety”.

    • Between this and the jihadi killing cop it looks like Texas cops can handle business. An army of bikers out of a bad b movie and no cops or bystanders got hurt.

      • Yes, lots of Texas LEOs can shoot.

        Slightly off topic: My wife and I have both had instances where we were stopped for traffic offenses and the officers, after learning we had CCW permits, proceeded to criticize us…for not actually carrying at the time.

        Quote: “We need as many good guys armed as we can get.”

        Another time I was stopped for speeding (I didn’t realize how low the speed limit was in that area). The officer talked guns with me for about five minutes (“Whatcha carrying?”), and as he was returning to his car said as an afterthought, “Slow it down, now, OK?”

        I love Texas.

      • And the Austin cop who shot the crazy guy at 100 yards while holding his horse’s reins.

        • It was 104 yards, and he was holding *2* horses. I have not been able to confirm, but everybody I have asked (including a county Sheriff’s deputy) said as far as they know, he fired exactly one shot. I suspect he may be an apprentice god.

    • My guess is the cops body count includes quite a few guys that were neither armed nor shooting.

      Anybody with a cut on was a target.

      • Absolutely, but had nothing to do with the cops. These turds were shooting each other, and there were no innocents among them. Apparently they’re thinking of charging around 170 people with RICO offenses, sending them to federal prisons for around 10 years with no parole. That might quiet some of that crap down.

        • Charging and convicting are different critters.

          Do the Feds want 217 (the latest number I have heard) polluting up Club Fed?

        • Charging update:

          Charges are RICO violations for now.

          Bail has been set at one million each.

          For 200 bikers, 200 million bucks:

          I wonder if that’s a record…

  9. I’ve stayed in a hotel in that shopping center and shopped at the Cabela’s there. I never thought of it as a scary place. It’s just your typical big sprawling American shopping center.

    Apparently the restaurant was collaborating with the gangs. I wonder if all the franchises in the Twin Peaks chain are that sleazy.

    • I guess I’m kind of a prude sometimes, but I think that whole “twin peaks” (snort! wink!) thing is sleazy.

    • There are two Twin Peaks restaurant locations in my area. One is near a big suburban mall and the other in an office park area. The rowdiest groups I’ve seen there are a bunch of suburban college alums who got permission from the missus for an outing.

    • I know this was in the parking lot, not inside Twin Peaks, but considering the participants of the festivities may have been patrons, I wonder if anybody knows if the 51 percent rule applies (like it would have done any good).

      • I read that the fight started in the restaurant, and that the police knew the gangs had been recruiting there for months.

        I tried to find out if it’s a 51% place, but I’ve forgotten how to work the TABC site. Derp. Googling around though, I got the impression it’s not a 51% establishment.

        • It is a 51% place. But if you are a Biker Gang member hat would only be a suggestion to comply.

        • I’m not certain 51% applies to prohibited persons, I think they can carry suppressed SBR machine guns wherever they like.

    • “Apparently the restaurant was collaborating with the gangs. I wonder if all the franchises in the Twin Peaks chain are that sleazy.”

      The main franchise is beyond not happy with the owners of that restaurant.

      Heard a radio blurb that they “Are exploring their options”… as in revoking their franchise.

        • “Restaurant Franchise Revoked

          Meanwhile the Twin Peaks corporate office Monday revoked the franchise of the restaurant where the shooting occurred.

          “We are in the people business and the safety of the employees and guests in our restaurants is priority one,” the company said.

          “Unfortunately the management team of the franchised restaurant in Waco chose to ignore the warnings and advice from both the police and our company, and did not uphold the high security standards we have in place to ensure everyone is safe at our restaurants.

          “We will not tolerate the actions of this relatively new franchisee and are revoking their franchise agreement immediately. Our sympathies continue to be with the families of those who died and are very thankful no employees, guests, police officers or bystanders were hurt or injured,” the statement said.”


  10. Yeah, there were horses, and a man on fire, and I killed a guy with a trident.

    • Brick, I’ve been meaning to talk to you about that, you should find a safe house or a relative close by. Lay low for a while, because you’re probably wanted for murder.

  11. Now that SOA is over these idiots must feel the need to keep the over the top action alive.

    • Well if Texas keeps going the way it is, this biker shootout is going to look like a walk in the park once the cartels start getting busy.

      Bikers kill bikers….cartels kill everyone.

  12. If it was mostly Harleys, the three gangs involved may have been the Dentists, the Lawyers, and the Neurosurgeons.

    I’m guessing the Lawyers started it, because they’re always starting shit. None of the dentists were hurt, because they are naturally very good shots. The neurosurgeons probably got caught in the crossfire, because they were standing there debating the best way to talk to girls.

  13. It’s not a biker gang, it’s a “motorcycle club.”

    Yep, just like the chess club and all their shootouts.

  14. I fail to see how the Mahms are relating Licensed Open Carry to this… If there is any correlation, it’s that there is a possibility it could have been prevented by Open Carry. I ask, again, what to Biker Gangs have to do with Licensed Open Carry? What the fuck are the Mahms prattling on about?

  15. I don’t see this as police brutality. Once in a while they do good. Props to Texas! And I think open carry may get a boost from this(although it’ll never happen in Illinois).

    • “Where’s the film?”

      Do *you* have the stones to point a video camera at a biker gang?

    • Boy, that’s a good question. With the cops assembling in advance, there should be videos from all angles outside from dashboards, and inside from body and surveillance cams. When do we get to watch the fun? Hell, we’ve had beheadings on TV, why not this melee?

  16. The cops were already there and a shootout still broke out? What happens when the cops are only minutes away?

  17. Kinda puts the whack in Waco. (Forgive me lord and feed the starving pygmies in Pygmalion).

  18. This incident is NOT WHY I CARRY…..because this incident is more about random luck and fate than
    directed crime. Smart people left the restaurant as soon as they saw a bunch of bikers sporting different
    club colors filling up the place because the best place to be when the shooting starts is ELSEWHERE….and
    when bikers mix gunplay is seldom far behind. A lawfully carrying citizen in such a place is at MORE risk from
    the random ‘to whom it may concern’ bullets flying about than from someone targeting them. That means that plainass dumb luck is the factor that governs your survival…..not a good plan to live by. And pulling your
    legal weapon to ‘defend yourself ‘ merely brings you to the attention of an unknown number of bikers….all of
    whom will have no qualms about shooting at YOU in addition to the opposition. And that doesn’t factor in
    the uniforms in the parking lot who will operate under the time honored tradition of ‘you ain’t wearing a badge so you are the enemy….BANG!’ NOPE…..given the chance I would be miles away from such a venue the moment I saw the number of ‘colors’ being sported by ugly men with tattoos. If by chance I were caught in such a situation I’d find the nearest ‘hole’ to crawl into and hide….like ducking out the back through the kitchen
    or a fire exit….and keeping by weapon OUT OF SIGHT so I don’t get shot by some trigger happy badge.

    • Having been in places where biker gangs occasionally visited in numbers taught me a hard-n-fast rule:

      When a bunch of guys from one gang show up and they’re the only gang there, finish your meal/whatever and calmly leave. If a second biker gang shows up, you’re done even if your food hasn’t even arrived – pay your bill and leave directly, being pleasant and calm to all concerned.

      • Rules to live by to be sure but a sad commentary on our society. My hard and fast rule upon encountering “bikers” at any business is to immediately vacate the area after informing management that they just lost a customer for life.

        • All crazy. I’m not talking to management and not paying the bill, I’m LEAVING! I’ll pay the cops outside if they like, but they’ll have to follow me to my car and maybe down the road a bit. Do we all think this is a freakin’ soap opera? I saw a video of a fat woman with enormous thingys and a tattoo on each one talking about how she was so scared and all, bullsheet. She was there for the event, enjoying the fun and the TV exposure.

    • +100

      I thought this was one of the most asinine titles for this story. Especially after the whole holier than thou article about shooting people earlier in the weekend.

    • That was my initial thought after reading the first sentence of the article, too. There are about fifty million reasons on my “why I carry” list before you get to “So I can get involved in a biker gang shootout that has nothing to do with me.” Shit like this starts to go down, I’m getting the hell out of there with all due haste, not clearing leather and participating in the festivities.

    • +1. No good comes from drawing on 50 armed bikers angry at each other.

      I would nope out of there so fast.

  19. And, of course, the drones over at CSGV and Moms Demand Action are just trying to mock the entire concept of a “good guy with a gun” as if that had any relation to this. Unbelievable. Apparently speaking in layman’s terms still isn’t simple enough for anti-gunners to understand.

    • The race-baiters are already writing posts and comments saying that if these criminals were black the National Guard wold be out there, etc., etc. The thing is they obviously don’t see the dozens of men sitting calmly while the police investigate. Had they gone into a full riot I’m sure we would see more police officers.

  20. Gang violence and the inability of our judicial system to keep repeat offenders off the street. No thanks. Let’s talk about disarming all good citizens and give the gangs and judicial system a pass. Agreed?

  21. I wonder in the end when the final report is taken. How many shots came from the bikers??
    Vs the cops?
    Im willing to bet we will never know but the cops who cant hit the broad side of a barn for the most part. Fired the majority of the shots.

    • Good test for ballistic science, no? Let’s see how many wounded by gunfire can be identified as to who shot them, regardless of cop or biker.

  22. Reports are that the management of this Twin Peaks welcomed and encouraged these 5 gangs of bikers to come to this restaurant/bar. I do not know if they spent alot of money or what, but that seems very unwise, especially if “normal” unsuspecting customers would be there. I went to a local Twin Peaks at its grand opening and have not been back. Not really interested in another Hooters (which is across the street). Food wasn’t that good, service was slow, and well…nuff said.

    Five motor cycle gangs meeting at a Twin Peaks restaurant is a recipe for disaster. They were all meeting to “discuss differences.” The discussion became heated, then fists and things were thrown, then guns came out. Law enforcement was there, it is reported. Law enforcement was on site. Law enforcement added shots to the total, it is reported.

    • Well, that information really does make TP’s management look all kinds of especially stupid, doesn’t it?

      Inviting one biker gang is stupid enough. Inviting two is stupid squared.

      Five? At that point, I have to wonder if the restaurant manager was playing host to some sort of criminal conspiracy.

  23. Ok, and where is the call to regulate or ban chains, knves, clubs and bats? Those are just as deadly. And I have heard how many of the 9 were shot.

    • Boy, are you ever missing the big picture. Let’s do something REAL, can’t we? We need to start “Moms Against Harley Davidson Motorcycles”, we have a shortcut since they are already registered, just go door-to-door and pick ’em up. And we will have solved the problems of the world, can sit back with a cold one.

  24. Rule number one…avoid stupid people. The twin peaks in my town is known for girls escorting, catering to bike gangs on the weekend, and catering to drunken loser sports fans.

    This is the worst kind of place to have a gun. In texas, you cant even have guns at twin peaks because the restaurant makes a large percentage of their money off alcohol.

    • That can’t be true! What are you thinking? The police are saying there were over 100 firearms in that restaurant, so obviously they could NOT have been prohibited there! Simply impossible! And clearly a lot of those bikers must also have been choir boys, since the state allowed them to carry concealed handguns. They couldn’t possibly carry if the state did not allow it, could they?

  25. I’v been riding for the better part of 35 years, and Iv seen lots of MC clubs/ gangs and members, the Bandidos, Gypsy Jokers, Hells Angels.. whatever.. You run into them at bars and rallys and outdoor concerts,and poker runs and benefit rides, public events, all the time … Members don’t seem particularly aggressive towards anyone, and they normally keep to themselves… Iv watched Multiple clubs converge on the same event, all without incident…This thing in Texas really surprised me..

    • Apparently, the difference was that this event was to divvy up the drug dealing territory. If drugs were all legalized just yesterday, this would not have happened today. And why, exactly, do we care who does drugs, even suicidal drugs? Bye-bye, we didn’t need you.

  26. Nine dead and several wounded thief’s, drug dealers, rapists and drug smugglers is a good thing. These criminals hurt others, endanger innocents and LEO’s, are a waste of societies fruits, and reap what they sow. Real men have jobs, take care of family and are good citizens.

    • Funny how you could pretty much say the same thing about any of the recent #blacklivesmatter collection of corpses.

  27. “In 34 years of law enforcement, this is the worst crime scene — the most violent crime scene — that I have ever been involved in. There are dead people still there. There is blood everywhere.”

    I guess he wasn’t at the Branch Davidian compound, then?

    • In that case, all exhibits were thoroughly sterilized by fire, cremated, and then bulldozed prior to letting anybody look.

  28. Being on the outside looking in on the Texas/US Open Carry debate, the first thing that strikes me is the complete and utter lack of relevance of this incident for the debate. Having read quite a lot of the Biker “Wars” in other countries in the 90’s and 00’s, it seems hardened criminals like these do not adhere to gun laws. For instance some years back a MC-gang in Denmark assasinated rival gangmember who was in prison by use of a M72LAW rocket launcher. Needless to say that is not something avalible to the average dane.

  29. I feel like I have seen on chl forums in the past that Twin Peaks is posted 51% sign, anyone able to confirm if that’s the case in Waco?

    If so how the hell did all these patrons get guns into the bar? /sarc

    • Regardless of the color of the sign they have posted, they are licensed blue, not red. While a few of the bikers were armed with handguns, most of the recovered weapons were from vehicles.

  30. Look, guys, this is easy.

    The Waco police identified a potential crime hot spot. They surveilled it. They allocated prevention resources (that’s officers on the scene for those in loma linda). They contacted and tried to work with the management. When they got no response, they beefed up resources to meet any the potential threat.

    This is what decent police departments do. This is what we WANT police departments to do.

    The point I would make is this:

    Texas police 2 Isis 0

    Texas police 217 Banditos/Cossacks/Scimitars 0

    You can mess with Texas if you want to try……but remember, we take policin’ serious down here!

  31. “In 34 years of law enforcement, this is the worst crime scene — the most violent crime scene — that I have ever been involved in. There are dead people still there. There is blood everywhere.”

    And everyone killed, and likely everyone shot, was shot by the SWAT team and other cops.

  32. Where did all the Texas MEN go? I am a woman, not in anyway a biker, I don’t even like roller coasters, too scary for me, But never once have I been afraid of a biker. Any place I have ever been where there were bikers present I have probably felt safer with them around. Yes I know a few, but not close friends with any. And I am sure there are bad ones (have been around those too) just like there are bad people without bikes, bad cops, bad politicians, bad people period. Most bikers I have been around are very respectful and protective. Texas was made by hard men, and that is why it IS THE GREAT STATE OF TEXAS. Being a hard man does not make you a bad man, just means you stand up for what you believe in. Some of these rants and raves sound like they are coming from little girls to me..just sayin’

    • This was not necessarily about this thread, just all the posts I have been reading everywhere, kinda worries me if things were to go bad someday

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