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80 Percent Arms: The ATF Raid on Polymer80 is the Opening Salvo in a War on the 80% Market

AR-15 80% lower

Dan Z. for TTAG

ED: Yesterday the ATF raided Polymer80, the Nevada-based seller of 80% lowers, pistol frames, gun parts and kits. Another big name in the space, 80 Percent Arms, has more than a passing interest in what just happened to their competitor. They’ve given TTAG the following statement regarding the ATF’s actions yesterday. 

We were reminded today of the precarious and often unpredictable nature of firearms enforcement. While 80 percents remain a well-defined and legal method for people to complete and build firearms, we were saddened to learn about the ATF’s raid of P80. The pretense of the raid is being reported widely with a litany of reasons. No arrests were made however, and it does seem the motivation is purely stepped up enforcement against our industry as a whole.

It’s important to remember that, while the 80% market is definitively legal by the ATFs own decision making, administrations and policymakers realize there is latitude to make examples of our industry. Despite P80 being our competitor, we have immense respect for their company and tremendous sympathy for what they are dealing with today. They are patriots who focus on making fantastic products. They were first to market with the 80% Glock category, which in turn, makes them a target. Just as we are the leader in the 80% AR space, we too know that we are a target.

This is the opening salvo in a new war against the 80% market and likely a pretense to rescinding all 80% letters in the near future under a Biden administration. While the revocation may occur, we believe strongly that this action would be illegal and we are prepared to vigorously fight for the continued existence of 80% lowers.

GST-9 80% GLOCK pistol frame

80 Percent Arms GST-9 80% GLOCK pistol frame (courtesy 80 Percent Arms)

80% Arms is currently the only 80% manufacturer fighting in court to prevent further regulation from taking place. When you support us, you are directly supporting our legal fight in both the

California v. ATF and New York v. ATF are lawsuits that will determine the future legality of the 80% lowers nationwide.

While competitive rivalries are commonplace in the industry, we are appalled and dismayed by today’s events. Every firearms manufacturer and reseller, 80% or not, should be extremely concerned with the ramifications of this potential overreach.

Why This Matters to Everyone

It’s important to understand what is at stake as these issues continue. Companies that make the 80% products we all enjoy employ teams of manufacturers, engineers, logistics professionals, and customer service representatives. In addition, through a complex web of domestic suppliers, we support thousands of families and businesses who are dedicated to protecting the second amendment. And of course, speaking selfishly, we like being here and serving you.

How to Help

We’ve made partnerships with the Firearms Policy Coalition a priority for this reason. We are matching donations to FPC at 300% and we have joined FPC in a lawsuit for this exact reason.

Ultimately, we need to help litigate and protect the rights of our customers and our friends. Not to mention our own. We all have a stake in this.

comments

  1. avatar binder says:

    Anyone want to bet that large orders of those kits were sent to individuals. And those kits somehow became firearms that were involved in a very high percentage of crimes.Similar situation happened with High Point where their sole distributor decided to sell hundreds of firearms to a handful of individuals who were claiming they were opening a gun store with his personal FFL. The buyers themselves did not have an FFL. An awful lot of those were used in murders including more cops.

    1. avatar Pcn says:

      Link to substantiate this please.

      1. avatar Manse Jolly says:

        Hmm—I would like to see some evidence of what you say as well.

        1. avatar JB says:

          Bad faith argument.

      2. avatar Carl M says:

        You won’t see it as he made all that up.

        1. avatar binder says:

          CIVIL CASE NO.: 3:20-cv-06761 State of Cal V AFT.

          Yes it is from anti gunners, but those cases will give you way more factual references than TTAG or the media. That’s how I got the refences to the Federal case against Brown

          The best place that has fully published statics is DC. DC “recovers” about 2000 guns per year. Last year Polymer 80 frames where about 4% or that. This year they are on track to be 10% Those are hard numbers with identified frames. And they have only been on the market for a few years. Age of a standard gun before recovery is about 12 years

          California numbers are about twice that from what I can tell. There has ben antidotal evidence of large orders, but information is hard to come by. The AFT and Law enforcement in general don’t like to publish just how easy it is to gun run (I really have to dig into court documents to get that info) but from what I can dig up, gun runners can sell them for a fairly big profit $200-$300% close to the markup on a Glock and they are becoming the preferred product.

        2. avatar binder says:

          Best bet is they got some sales documentation from a few busts that tripped the civil lawsuit of the State of California against the AFT and also triggered the search warrants for the raid

        3. avatar JB says:

          @binder

          What is an AFT?

    2. avatar Mike V says:

      “very high percentage of crimes.”

      Dude there’s a literal shit ton of guns floating around.

      You think the relatively new and not cheap build kits account for or are involved in a “very high percentage of crimes.”???

      I’m sure they show up for sure. But the real question is, do they account for crimes that otherwise wouldn’t have occured?

      1. avatar Felix says:

        Exactly. What kind of doofus criminal wants to go through all the 80% hassle when there are countless guns available on the streets, cheaper and ready to go?

        You are dreaming of who-knows-what fantasy for who-knows-what reason. You are either a troll or a hoplophobe.

        1. avatar Red in CO says:

          Right? Even at pre-Covid prices you’re still looking at $600+ MINIMUM to turn a Polymer80 lower into a functional firearm. Whereas a comparable OEM Glock pistol could be purchased (dirty and hot, but if you’re already cliqued up then who gives a shit) for literally half that. Anyone who thinks 80% lowers are a frequent source of criminal firearms doesn’t even know a single armed felon

      2. avatar afp3 says:

        Is there actually a literal definition of “shit ton?”

        1. avatar Pb_fan59 says:

          Why yes AFP3 , there are actually 2 different definitions in Merriam-Webster dictionary… ” shit-ton” for ‘Merica, and “shit-tonne”, also known as a metric shitload, for our neighbors north of the border.

        2. avatar Tom in Oregon says:

          Not sure.
          There is a definition of a “butt load”.
          (I’ll let you look that one up. PS, it’s not sexual.)

        3. avatar I Haz A Question says:

          Tom,

          It’s a measurement of a cask of wine, originated from the Medieval Ages. When I learned of it earlier this year, I laughed out loud because I’ve been using the term “buttload” as a joke forever. Didn’t realize it was actually a thing.

          Now my wife asks me if I want a small glass, or a buttload, of Merlot with my dinner.

        4. avatar Donnie Perignon says:

          Myth.

      3. avatar enuf says:

        I strongly disagree. There is not a shit-ton of guns floating around.

        It’s more like a shit-kilo-ton. Or maybe the correct word order is kilo-shit-ton? Not sure about that part.

        And the guns are not floating around. The guns are at the bottom of lakes, because guns don’t float.

        Ask anyone who’s ever had a tragic boating accident.

        Actually, it is trying to haul about components of kilo-shit-tons of guns in boats that directly lead to tragic boating accidents.

        And we all know there’s a shit-ton of tragic boating accidents out there, treacherous waters and all.

        Alcohol may have also been a factor.

        1. avatar binder says:

          And yet 80%s are a very small total of all firearms but are at 10% and rising like a bullet for confiscated guns. Haw did that happen. Are all the thieves looking for 80%s because they can be traced?

        2. avatar rt66paul says:

          The reason that there have been so many “recovered” kit built guns in Ca is because so many people did not register them. Any kit handgun on an AR or AK platform(or the like) is not legal here in Ca, even if you try to register them. I have a suspicion that anyone that has taken one of these to any range(even back when they were quasi legal) is well known to LE and has been subject to search and seizure(or will be). Anyone who hosted or even blogged about attending build parties would be in their sights also. I know a few people that have had their weapons seized and ended up plea bargaining to a felony, losing all firearms rights.
          If you are a Californian, move out of state and make sure the weapons do not follow you back into Ca if you come back.

        3. avatar SKP5885 says:

          @binder

          Are you kidding? You must be right? Anyone who is capable of completing an 80% lower is capable of using a bastard file and filing off serial numbers on a firearm, effectively making it untraceable. The stupid coming out of your comments is amazing. I love your reference to the ATF as the AFT. Please keep it up, this is great, free Friday night entertainment. LOL. You sir are an idiot.

        4. avatar Geoff "I'm getting too old for this shit" PR says:

          “Anyone who is capable of completing an 80% lower is capable of using a bastard file and filing off serial numbers on a firearm, effectively making it untraceable.”

          That’s actually a myth, thanks to modern metallurgical techniques.

          They can read the grain of the metal somehow to see the ‘imprint’ the stamp made on the metal, deep in the metal.

          You can totally destroy a number a different way – Drill through the metal until you see daylight. Then there is nothing they can read…

      4. avatar LibertyToad says:

        80%’s are very rarely used in crimes.

    3. avatar The Crimson Pirate says:

      How did a distributor sell guns to a non FFL? That is a violation. There is a paper trail to be maintained and a complex licensing system dictating who can transfer firearms to whom. I can’t just call up a distributor, say hey we are opening a gun shop, and have them send me a bunch of guns. They are going to need a copy of my license. A distributor shipping to someone with no license IS BREAKING THE LAW.

      1. avatar Green Mtn. Boy says:

        As the frame/receiver is only 80 % finished according to the ATF it is not a firearm,so it can be shipped anywhere, to ones door

        1. avatar Cloudbuster says:

          The OP is talking about High Points purportedly sold directly to non FFL-holders, not 80% firearms.

        2. avatar binder says:

          Yes, but polymer 80 was giving discounts for large purchases. I remember looking at them about a year ago and was taken back that I could order 10 at a time for a discount.

        3. avatar Ing says:

          Why shouldn’t they give discounts?

        4. avatar binder says:

          Because someone who buys 50 identical kits is likely not using them for personal use.

        5. avatar Ing says:

          So you want the government to limit how many things we can buy, just in case? How progressive of you.

        6. avatar John says:

          Can not ship to Ca, WA, and a number of other states.

      2. avatar binder says:

        Well Charles Brown, High Points distributer just used his personal FFL. There was a single transfer of 83 identical High Points and a bunch of other ones as well. But he did not “know” the people he was selling to were gun gunners so he was good 😉

        1. avatar Warwolf says:

          Little baby binder, ITS NONE OF YOUR FUCKING BUSINESS why someone orders 50 identical kits. Simple as that!

    4. avatar Debbie W. says:

      You are talking out your bottom binder. Most firearms used in crime are stolen, etc.
      The obstacle that some people with their panties in a wad fail to factor in…You have to have tools and knowledge to complete the build. Such firearms have a built in lengthy waiting period that starts with an order and ends when all the work is done and if not done correctly it goes in a dumpster.
      Like cars…only an amateur would use their own vehicle in a crime so they steal one, use it and burn it.
      With all the forensics nowadays serial numbers are not as high on the list as they used to be.

      1. avatar binder says:

        Totally BS on build time Pew Pew Tactical on the Poly 80 kit

        “I’d estimate 25% difficulty compared to completing an AR-15 80% build. It’s really not that hard if you’re semi-capable with hand tools and don’t rush things.”

        Do 2 or 3 of them, and you can start cranking them out.

        1. avatar Warwolf says:

          That’s one guys opinion, how many have you built?

        2. avatar BR says:

          Part of living in a free country is not having to justify why you do anything. Personally, I abhor Binder having a say at all. But then again, I respect the Constitution. I would personally like to bitch slap that asshat. I care not how many of any item turns up in crime. 100% of the vehicles in drunk driving deaths are vehicles. So, ban motor vehicles. IT is personal responsibility that is to be regulated; not our freedoms or access to objects. I am way more than tired of arguing this or that pertaining to my freedoms. So, I say this to folks like Binder: Shut the fuck up, I care not what you say. Soon enough, in the coming world, folks like you will be cannon fodder by either side; traitors to us, useful idiots to the socialists. Either way, you are done.

      2. avatar binder says:

        And what risk is there to the gun runner? Some gang banger who is good with tools can order them by the dozen and make $500 each on them. The only way to trace them is raid polymer 80 and get the sales records. The ATF had to get a search warrant. Read the CA V AFT lawsuit filed in September over this. They was repeated mention of multiple sales to individuals. Any bets that that evidence in currently in the hands of the Californian Department of Justice and they forcing the AFT to finally act. D.C. was tacking polymer 80 guns in their confiscations starting last year. Was at 5% for 2019 and at 10% for the first half of 2020.

        But your right, the criminals were heavy targeting polymer 80 owners and not buying them .

      3. avatar Binder says:

        Current statistics for guns use in crimes:
        6% of guns used in crimes are stolen,
        25% are obtained it from a family member or friend.
        7% were personally purchased.
        Underground market is abut 43%

        Back when the ATF was willing to publish information about the underwound market sources were in this order:
        1) straw purchase sales
        2) legally licensed but corrupt at-home and commercial gun dealer
        3) Lost or stolen guns from FFLs (latest numbers I could find were 18,000 for 2016)
        4) Unlicensed street dealers who either get their guns through illegal transactions with licensed dealers or straw purchases (AKA gun runners)

        1. avatar LampOfDiogenes says:

          Those statistics you posted . . . citations, please???

        2. avatar Diane Rehm says:

          Binder is a brick shy of a load… he needs to go play in traffic…

        3. avatar BR says:

          So 49% are illegal by your own admission. How many laws have to be broken before you realize that laws don’t work. When you ban something a black market arises to fill the void.

    5. avatar J. Smith says:

      Actually, the numbers from LE are extremely low. Other than MPD in DC and the FBI trying to make it a huge threat to law enforcement ala their agenda, you are completely wrong.

      With speculation like that you should prospect for gold.

      Good article gentlemen, thanks for the info on what we can do.

      Then after, can we have the military tribunals and put them all in prison for their crimes? I dont want ya’ll to forget these agencies are committing crimes. We dont just right the ship and forget the mutiny.

      1. avatar Tired of the bs says:

        Exactly that. All these assholes just go back to work on the next batch of infringements with no repercussions. I wish they were held responsible for their actions.

      2. avatar binder says:

        Try more like 38 states they are popping up in crimes. DC is the one major place that actually to identify the manufacture in their statistics, but it is right in line with the overall increase in the percentage of firearms confiscated without a SN. Back when MKS Supply’s was loose with direct sales Cincinnati and a marked increase in gun crime and a huge increase in the number of High Points confiscated. Look where MKS is located. Brown was using his personal FFL so the sale had to stay in state. If you make is easy to get guns, things happen.

    6. avatar jwtaylor says:

      Yes. I will take that bet.
      $5K says that this 80% lowers were not “involved in a very high percentage of (violent) crimes.”
      If you would like to wager more I will happily take that bet.
      I’ll hand my cash to Dan. Send him yours as well.
      We can both post our evidence here and allow the readers to decide.
      Put up or shut up.

      1. avatar TheBSonTTAG says:

        JWTaylor for the win. Gun owners truly are their worst enemies. Overheard a conversation while in line at the grocery store today. A guy worried Biden will confiscate his guns. Why even own them if you are unwilling to use them for their intended purposes.

      2. avatar uncommon_sense says:

        Excellent, feisty response Mr. Taylor — this suggests that you are well on your way to complete recovery after surgery!

      3. avatar binder says:

        The best place that has fully published statics is DC. DC “recovers” about 2000 guns per year. Last year Polymer 80 frames where about 4% or that. This year they are on track to be 10% Those are hard numbers with identified frames. And they have only been on the market for a few years. Age of a standard gun before recovery is about 12 years

        That’s impressive for a product that has been on the market for just a few years.

        You still want to make that bet?

        1. avatar jwtaylor says:

          Yes

        2. avatar jwtaylor says:

          Come on binder, I’m good for it. You’ve got this, right? You seem so sure. Put your money where your mouth is.

        3. avatar J.Smith says:

          Ill take that bet siding with JWT and double it. I would like to know where you got your numbers Binder. I know where i got mine. Last year if i recollect correctly, MPD seized something like 8, 80% firearms total and called it a crisis. Thats not 4% of 2000. Go sit in the corner, and STFU, adults are talking.

          Binder simply put you are full of shit.

      4. avatar rt66paul says:

        The guns were confiscated – that was the crime. I would love to see the stats on how many acts of violence were done with these kit guns by the builder(original owner). I am sure that there have been a few acts that were done with kit guns that were possessed illegally.

    7. avatar Andrew Lias says:

      If these were used in crimes commonly mayors of Democratic Cities like Chicago would be parading around droves of them in news conferences as they need excuses to avoid being blamed for the pile of bodies of black men who’s votes matter more to them than their lives do.

      1. avatar binder says:

        Well State of California just filed law suit against the AFT. They have only been on the market for a few years, the last two is where the curve just went L shaped.

        1. avatar Big E says:

          Quit typing “AFT” you freaking retard.

          The idiotic drivel you are making up is bad enough without repeated, ignorant typos.

        2. avatar jwtaylor says:

          Read more carefully. California is calling any firearm without a serial number a “ghost gun”.

          Wait.. no, don’t read. Just bet me like you said you would.

    8. avatar Craig in IA says:

      That’s BS, Binder.

      Crooks that would have the initiative and ability to rough out an 80% AR or Glock would be working real jobs and not going to all the effort to make the gun when they can come up with one off the street for far less money and effort. Having completed a few myself I can vouch for the fact that (at the time, anyway) one with no real connections could buy a complete Glock 17/19 or a low end AR 15 for a lot less money than it took to part one together after buying and finishing the receiver/frame. I’ve not checked since the fake Hu Flung Dung Flu but I imagine it’s the same now.

      I’m betting Binder has never put one together from scratch or he/she/it would know better than to make such outrageous statements publicly.

      1. avatar binder says:

        Dude, I have detailed stripped all my handguns. I can strip down a 1911 to the sear in 10 minutes. I home smith CZ 75s, a Glock 80 is child’s play.

        And you can buy a Glock off the street for less than 1K. From some crack addict who stole it. The majority of firearms used in crimes are NOT stolen. They are the product of a straw purchase or gun running. The shutdown of kitchen table FFLs has help put a dent in the gun running but not for that long

        But the numbers don’t lie. DC is at 10% confiscated guns are Polymer 80s. California has to be minimum of 15, and more likely 20% Given the fact that have only been on the market for a few years, well guess what, criminals buy guns. Unless you think that 80% guns represent 10% of all guns being stolen.

        And yes the majority of kitchen table FFLs are not gun runners, but the majority of gun runners were kitchen table FFLs

        1. avatar SKP5885 says:

          You forgot to use the term AFT…….dumbass. LOLOL. Please keep posting. This is the most fun I have had reading TTAG in months.

        2. avatar Ing says:

          Let’s assume it’s the other way around. The crime rate is the same, but non-serialized, home-built guns are the norm, and serialized guns made by big companies have risen from 4% to 10% of the pistols seized by the mythical AFT.

          Would that be better or worse? Is there something inherently bad and scary about people making their own things? Is that really the problem here?

          Any restriction you put in place boils down to the law-abiding being punished for what criminals have done. That’s the bottom line.

        3. avatar Craig in IA says:

          I really don’t care about your ‘smithing claims since we’ll never meet if we’re both fortunate. You didn’t claim to have finished either an 80% AR or Glock. I have. Also an AR 10 clone in 7. 62×51. Also a number of other surplus military rifles and an original Para Ord P14 in the past 25 years or so. (While those were on 4473’d receivers/frames I can’t see what difference that makes, except that in theory, the Feds could some day come looking for them if they could dig through enough paper 4473 files in a number of cities and states. God luck with that. )

          I built these firearms because I enjoy making and working on mechanical things, because I have the skills and because I live in the USA. You, I presume, believe no one in the world should have either this ability or right.

          You also throw around unverified stats, such as 10% of confiscated firearms in DC are 80%. So, what was the total number of CONFISCATED firearms in DC and please specify the year. 10% of 10 confiscated guns would be 1 and I doubt more than 1 completed 80% handgun was confiscated in DC from an active criminal. I can believe the gendarmes there would seize one from some poor schlub traveling through from, say, Alabama or Iowa. Someone they caught speeding, for example. Definitely not from gangbangers. Let’s see some DOJ stats to back your claims

        4. avatar Craig in IA says:

          Oh, and cut the “dude” crap. You might be a moron but not all of us are…

        5. avatar bob says:

          I don’t understand why they don’t just make crime illegal?

        6. avatar BR says:

          It takes you 10minutes to disassemble your 1911? Why so much time?

    9. avatar LampOfDiogenes says:

      Several comments, binder,

      First, it is difficult to be persuasive when you neither know the English language nor proper spelling or grammar. Work on it. Or continue sounding an uneducated fool, whatever you prefer.

      Second, citing a case that is pending and yet to be decided, claiming that the CASE has the definitive proof of your assertion, is . . . well, when I was on the debate team in college, that would have gotten us laughed out of the room. The truth and accuracy of their assertions is what the trier of fact will determine, and the appellate process will affirm or negate.

      Third, you’re stupid. I can walk into any Home Depot with $40 in my pocket, and walk out with the materials to make a fully functional firearm. With less money, I can make a fully functional napalm-equivalent incendiary device. With $100, I can walk out of any nursery or garden store with materials to make a fully functional chemical weapon.

      The ATF (it is NOT the “AFT”) may assert control over material objects, and may even be granted some leeway in that by our courts, who have clearly abandoned the Constitution in favor of their own prejudices, but NO ONE can control human knowledge. If you think 80% receivers are a problem? You ain’t seen nothin’, yet.

      1. avatar BR says:

        We live in the world of CNC machining. Using Solidworks and Mastercam, one can design most anything, get the G code and manufacture anything. IT isn’t magic, and many high school students have this knowledge now. In the face of a gun ban, there will be an enormous black market in arms and ammo. Without question. There will be the violence that comes with the black market. Many, who would never be involved in the illegal drug trade, would have no qualms in black market arms dealing; it will be seen as a patriotic duty. The dumbass liberals will then move to control the technology of production; but that will fail as well. Also, the importation of foreign arms will be huge. There will be an Ak under every bed, as that is easy to produce, as are the STEN and others. Let the games begin.

    10. avatar Hannibal says:

      I’ve heard of only a handful of cases.

      There are enough stolen and diverted guns out there that most crooks don’t need to mess around manufacturing them.

    11. avatar Diane Rehm says:

      I think you are bat crap crazy…. to say people who construct their own firearms are somehow mass murderers is asinine…. please you need to get help… the boogie man is just around the corner…

    12. avatar Beau says:

      Cops are shot with stolen weapons not by guys
      building firearms from kits. You have been watching to many Clint Eastwood movies.

    13. avatar John says:

      I am betting that you can not provide any verification.

    14. avatar Roscoe says:

      Bullshit!

  2. avatar Alan says:

    The purpose of the raid was to get the customer lists.

    1. avatar Manse Jolly says:

      What good does that do?

      Is the BATFE going to track down every kit that was sold legally now that Creepy Joe might get in to office?

      As someone said in an earlier post and others a gazillion times at TTAG, these agencies need to be brought to heel. Chevron is BS.

      1. avatar WARFAB says:

        Probably not. Proactively tracking down every kit they sold would put people on alert and create excessive pushback. The scarier scenario involves holding onto the information to use when necessary to silent any particular individual who might be bothering those in power.

        1. avatar Mike V says:

          Good point, more levers to pull and buttons to push when the time comes.

      2. avatar binder says:

        Well, when someone buys 50 of them, you may want to investigate.

        1. avatar Big E says:

          I think you are excessively using your right to free speech and need to be investigated.

        2. avatar Odins Raven says:

          Doesn’t matter if they buy 1000 pieces of plastic, it’s still none of your fu##ing business.

    2. avatar Nonips says:

      I would not keep a list at all with the Democrats communist party coming will be put to take any and all guns so make sure you don’t keep names address of anyone

      1. avatar Carl M says:

        Please tell your doctor to up your medications, it seems your antipsychotic drugs are not working.

    3. avatar Craig in IA says:

      “The purpose of the raid was to get the customer lists.”

      More likely to put us all on notice that BATFE intends to be a big player in any Harris/Biden admin if it is allowed to continue to steal the election. More of what to expect.

    4. avatar Katy says:

      What customer list? They’ve been sold out or had barely-there inventory for as long as I can remember – even pre-COVID.

      1. avatar Doug Crouse says:

        They don’t have to legally keep names on a customer list any more than a hardware store has to keep a list of people who buy rope ( can be used for lynching or suicide).They aren’t much of a company if they have a list of names of everyone who bought their product instead of just total product sales.

  3. avatar former water walker says:

    Oy vey! Not involved in 80% anything(except my lung capacity😞). Everyone acting as if Trump would always be around. And he never really HAS!

  4. avatar Mas Cool Arrow says:

    I guess I’m in trouble. Just got back from the hardware store with assorted pipe, wood, and screws.

    1. avatar Alan says:

      If you own a hacksaw and a shotgun you are really up the creek.

      1. avatar WARFAB says:

        If you own a closet full of household cleaning products you might be in trouble too.

    2. If you carried all of that home in a single bag, that now constitutes a firearm. You really should head to your local gun store and have them run a background check.

      The ATF is, at this very minute, swearing out a warrant for a raid on your hardware store for selling unregistered firearms.

      (This shouldn’t be necessary, but since this is still 2020, /sarc)

  5. avatar Dan says:

    War? I don’t think that metaphor really matches the situation here. That’s like saying that a change in the speed limit is the opening salvo in a war on speed. There’s no regulatory battleground on which to fight. They have the power to change the regulations and there isn’t anything we can do about it shy of legislative action, for which we don’t have the votes. I wish it were different, but it’s not.

    1. avatar The Crimson Pirate says:

      Tell that to the potheads and the pro immigration crowd. We can do what they did; not comply and press our local and state officials to not comply.

  6. avatar EpsteinDidNOTKillHimself says:

    Didnt we see a report that like 90% of gun crime in Chicago was committed with a hand gun?
    The other 10%, edged weapons, blunt objects, maybe a few shotgun Joe firearms.

    Based off the recent leaked tapes from old Joe, he does not sound like he is willing to go the Executive Order route to out law certain guns . . . and that might be why now MSM is reporting on all the Biden family corruption . . . get him out, and Harris in, who would go so far as using Ex orders to do everything the Dems want.

    We are seeing two different Americas forming.
    One is Orwellian.
    The other is up to us to lead. Get the children out of public schools and homeschool with an emphasis on STEM, critical thinking, history (not the left revised version but real history), economics, civics, and ethics. Support the 1stA even if you do not agree with the conversation. Support the 2nd as much as the 1stA. And point out the MSM bias and self-censorship.
    I served in the USMC, honorable discharge, and while I may not like neo-Nazis as they would call me a mud person, they still have their right to the 1stA. And I have the right to not listen to them, or protest against them.
    That is the right of a free society.

    1. avatar Carl M says:

      We just are leaving the Orwellian nightmare. And meal team six members like you certainly are not leading anyone.

      1. avatar Carls mom sucks the neighborhood off.... says:

        Stfu “CARL”!!….. YOUR MOM SAYS AFTER SHE GETS DONE BLOWING ME, SHE’S COMING DOWN TO THE BASEMENT TO WHIP YOUR A$$…..F K N LITTLE FREAK M F E R

      2. avatar Ing says:

        You haven’t been paying attention at all, have you.

      3. avatar Miner49er says:

        Carl, you are correct and the first reply, in ALL CAPS, indicates the caliber of our political opponents.

        And much gratitude to those justices on the Supreme Court who saw their duty clearly and executed the directives of the Constitution of the United States of America, Huzzah!

        I just heard a bell ring, I think RBG just got her wings.

        1. avatar Ing says:

          What it boils down to is that one state can’t use the federal government to make another state abide by its own laws. The ruling makes legal sense and avoids opening a federal can of worms.

          What it doesn’t boil down to is an absence of wrongdoing in those states. Whether the shenanigans cost Trump the election or not, they stink. Partisan courts have papered over the problems, but it’s still a hot mess at best and a hotbed of fraud at worst.

          Those states and counties need to be cleaned up, but they’re going to have to be cleaned up by their own voters.

        2. avatar Manse Jolly says:

          @lng….”What it boils down to is that one state can’t use the federal government to make another state abide by its own laws. …”

          Just wanted to get this out there…not the forum for this discussion but since you brought it up.

          Except that is exactly what the Constitution states under ArtII, secl when it comes to electors. Specifically State legislatures will follow this. This is a clear violation on the part of the four States. This has nothing to do with President Trump, evidence, politics, Party, media, or anything else.

          Did the violation happen? Answer=Yes, matter of public record. No 2nd reading or referendum to the voters took place in PA, PA supreme court dictating order ect. Yet SCOTUS states that neither Texas or any other State has the Right to sue over a violation of the agreed upon (ratified) contract (Constitution)

          So what I’m getting from you/others is a signer of a contract can not argue when the other party cheats them. (the Roof company took my money for a complete roof and only put two shingles on, but I can’t argue about it or dispute it? (poor analogy but it’s early in morning yet)

          At this point, anyone at TTAG that believes that SCOTUS will rule justly for gun owners and the 2nd Amendment, you are lying to yourself. It is obvious now.

          Have a good Saturday.

        3. avatar LampOfDiogenes says:

          Are you really this stupid???? A dispute among states is a matter of “original jurisdiction” of SCOTUS; SCOTUS doesn’t have the RIGHT to not hear the case (but our courts have long since abandoned any fealty to the actual Constitution). The Court exercised extreme cowardice to dodge a political bullet. Not exactly something to be proud of. SCOTUS could have heard the case, and come to any conclusion they felt they could justify, but by refusing to hear a case of ORIGINAL JURISDICTION, they proved themselves cowardly, politically expedient pussies.

          But, based on your posting history on this site, I wouldn’t have expected much rationality or knowledge from you, so I am not disappointed.

        4. avatar Ing says:

          You could be right. If they violated a constitutionally specified procedure that all states must follow, then you’re right, the Supreme Court should have taken it up. And it looks like the judges who have the best handle on the Constitution did disagree with the decision not to.

          Whether it was a prudent and just decision, a prudent but probably unconstitutional dodge, or an abject dereliction of duty, you are right in that we can’t depend on ANYONE in government at this point.

          What I’ve been seeing all along in this process is simply that nobody will be allowed to ask questions about this election. Period. They’re claiming that it’s to protect the democratic process, but the result is the opposite. “Shut up and go away” is not an answer, nor does it inspire faith in the process.

    2. avatar Binder says:

      They are “Glock” kits. They are a LOT easier to finish than a AR15 lower. And they are turning up in a lot of crimes way faster than they would if people were “stealing” them

      1. avatar Ing says:

        Come up with a solution that doesn’t place the entire burden for someone else’s criminal behavior on people like you and me, and then I’ll listen.

      2. avatar Craig in IA says:

        Still waiting for your stats…

  7. avatar Debbie W. says:

    Ya’ll do know that Trump could put a stop to this with a phone call, right? If his people are pulling this crap on his watch, its his fault!

    1. avatar Tom in Oregon says:

      ^^^ What she said.

    2. avatar Rusty - Always Carry - Chains says:

      Yep, all he needs to do is pick up the phone and have the top 6 people at ATF show up, hand the top 5 their walking papers and collect their credentials and tell the remaining guy he is in charge and has two weeks to transfer the remaining problem children to Nome. The fix would be easy but it isn’t gonna happen since this should have happened two months ago or more.

      If you live in Georgia you need to go and vote, offer to take other people as well, I will be taking at least two other like minded people with me Janurary 5th.

    3. avatar doesky2 says:

      Very true.
      But I still voted for him.
      I have no idea why at this point and with nothing to lose why he doesn’t blow up the system.

      De-classify everything from Biden investigations through Roswell.
      Open up machine gun registry until Biden gets in.
      Invalidate all of anti-gun ATF positions.

    4. avatar Hannibal says:

      “the buck stops somewhere with the previous administration or the next administration, just not here.”

  8. avatar Anon says:

    Binder, paid by Bloomberg, just a troll.

    1. avatar binder says:

      Nope, just someone who knows how to read a lawsuit and look up facts. I know criminals are going to get guns. But someone who profits off of making it easy for them I not a fan of. And what point can polymer 80 keep its head in the sand? I can grantee you that Polymer 80 full Glock kit is loved by criminals.

      In theory everyone should be able to own any kind of arms they want. But I also know that are rights are just as determined by what society agrees to than any document says. Lets try and introduce some friction to minimize the number of firearms in criminal hands shall we? Because there is going to be a point were society determines that the 2nd amendment is not worth the cost. I would rather not hasten the day

      I sure there is more than enough evidence for a search warrant for Polymer 80. It’s the same crap that Charles Brown pulled. I don’t think that the AFT will release the records (it’s going to be years until they do) but I’m willing to bet that there have been more that a few large purchases tied to gun runners.

      1. avatar Ing says:

        “Lets try and introduce some friction to minimize the number of firearms in criminal hands shall we?”

        Problem is, ALL the friction gets applied to you and me — none of it gets to the criminals. Dunno about you, but I’m not interested in being scapegoated for somebody else’s violent act.

      2. avatar Bob says:

        Wouldn’t it be easer to put the criminals in prison? Instead of fruitlessly trying to round up inanimate objects?

      3. avatar BR says:

        Since Binder states he is not a fan of………………………….(fill in the blank), let me add this; I am not a fan of you having the right to spout off in direct opposition to my rights. However, and this tastes real, real bad, I do support your right to your speech. You need to respect my rights as well; and that includes my right to any manner of arm I choose, regardless of stage of finish or manufacture. When we start down the rabbit hole of banning this or that, soon something YOU cherish will be on the chopping block Heed that well.

  9. avatar William says:

    So are these kits no longer legal ?

    1. avatar Hannibal says:

      who knows? That’s the utter insanity of the ATF being able to decide on a whim.

  10. avatar RV6Driver says:

    First of all this is Trump’s atf doing this… Second. They’re goin after the clientele lists…. Third. If ya bought 30 kits on your credit card your probably making “the list.” 4th. Probably doesn’t really doesn’t matter in the long run. 5th. The only thing keeping the average joe “law abiding” is the fact that he’s content. Take that comfort level away and he’ll end up doing whatever the fuck he wants. Don’t believe me? Look at every hood in the country.

    1. avatar Craig in IA says:

      If you believe the various govt agencies have been following DJT’s orders you must’ve been asleep for 4 years

  11. avatar Elaine says:

    We need more guns to protect ourselves.

  12. avatar Tyson Mendel says:

    I didn’t read all of the comments but I think most are missing the point. There is no law making it illegal to make a firearm(unless your a felon). There are laws making it illegal to make a firearm and then give it away or sell it without being licensed to do that. The point being made here in the article or whats being talked about is the fact that the ATF is coming after companies making 80% finished gun parts (which is not against any law) and people having them. Again we see the ATF overreaching their authority!

  13. avatar BR says:

    The ATF has since its inception been a rogue agency. Poorly run, poorly staffed, not supervised. After the murder of Vickie Weaver, and the court decision that a federal agent can murder, as long as it is in the performance of his duties (what ever they say that is), he cannot be prosecuted. Combine that with the fact that no law enforcement officer is bound to protect any one citizen; and we have the prescription for trouble. Soverign Immunity afforded to the federal agents is also allowing all manner of atrocities. Fear is the ATF’s most prized coercion agent. And everyone should fear the ATF. They do what they want without restraint. Unless and until citizens band together against tyrants such as the ATF; they will continue to march on citizens all over our country. Divided we fall.

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