Reader OneIfByLand writes:
Is the Pakistan school massacre a warning shot across our bow? There is simply no way we have enough police to protect all of our schools for any length of time. The only practical way is to allow citizens the ability to practice their natural, civil and Constitutional rights to protect themselves and our children from such heinous crimes against humanity. Sadly, what I fear we will do is more security theatre, a (temporary) show of force to make the people feel safe (as opposed to being safe) until the shock passes . . .
And then we’ll go back to “business as usual”…until it’s not…and then we’ll wonder why it happened and what we could have done to prevent it. The answer is under our noses, vested by divine providence in our very being…the answer sits with every parent, teacher, school administrator and citizen.
Allow armed school carry. Eliminate gun free (i.e. crime encouragement) zones that are virtual welcome mats for this kind of horror to occur here.
That’s a very very ugly photo. And it should also be a little bit of a wake up call to the people of this nation. The plane unedited truth is that there is NOTHING keeping this from happening ANYWHERE around the GLOBE if a group is determined enough to kill. Not law, regulation, or ‘common sense’ regulation can stop it.
The photo is well-chosen, not overtly ghastly, but when reflected upon the reality should sink in.
I disagree. I contend the “common sense” would be to REQUIRE all employees of every school system to carry every day. Then, it could not happen here. It wouldn’t hurt to teach high school students to shoot, for the eventuality that some employees might fall, so they could pick up guns and carry on.
Beslan.
That was my first thought when I heard about this one. At least this time they weren’t standing on deadman switches. If it can happen, it can happen here.
where local militia fought for their loved ones lives, and some of the russian army turned and fled…
Speaking of waving the bloody….carpet. Just saying.
Yes, this can happen here. And there’s nothing anyone can do about it.
Nothing.
Nobody, anywhere, is prepared to handle being attacked by several heavily armed, suicidal gunmen. There is no preparation. You can allow the staff to be armed, but they’re not going to be able to handle a grenade, or two, being tossed in the door, through the window that was shot out of the locked door. Others can discuss the nuances of a firefight in a closed classroom filled with children.
Can a armed presence deter? Possibly. For whatever reason, this doesn’t happen in Israel. You’d think if it could happen anywhere, it would be there. But how much of that is simply good intelligence and policing work than any deterrent presented on site? Or, simply, the Palestinians know better than to truck bomb an elementary school.
This wasn’t some crazed, lone lunatic. That’s a completely different scenario. Demonstrably an armed staffer can make a difference. But this was a trained, clear headed, motivated crew. The sight of good guys weren’t going to scare them off, they’d simply double-down. The DID double down.
Could an armed teacher point a pistol at a locked door, aiming to shoot at anything that comes through? Sure. Will that stop the grenades from skittering in? Not likely. It might slow them down. Won’t do much when the guy runs in with his suicide vest primed.
You can arm the teachers, and the staff. What is likely not going to happen is to then train them in small unit, counter-ambush tactics. All of their training is to keep the kids from flooding in to the halls in a chaotic, target rich bedlam.
Arming the teachers is not the answer. The answer, whatever it is, needs to happen before it even gets to a question of whether armed teachers and staff could have done anything.
There are certainly good reasons for arming staff members, but this isn’t one of them.
Allowing school teachers and staff to arm themselves may not be the answer…but it has to be part of any coherent, useful response to the existence of people who will do this kind of thing.
1. Carry spare mags
2. Train. Train. Train. Train. Train.
3. Take as many of them with you as you can.
They are willing to die for what they love. Are you?
They aren’t afraid of death, but they ARE afraid of failure. No, armed teachers won’t stop them; at most they can minimize their success or slow them down.
But unarmed school staff can’t even do THAT.
I’m locked in combat with my superintendent about teacher carry. He wets his pants just thinking about me and other teachers carrying in the classroom. The board of education has the final say, but it’s a tough fight.
Could I stop something like this? Probably not. Could I send a few of them to meet Allah on terms not their own? I certainly hope so.
We are speaking of the Pakistan school shooting, aren’t we? Of course armed adults on premises can help. The attackers weren’t hurling hand grenades or igniting suicide vests. They had a list of boys they wanted to murder, because these were sons of senior army officers. The boys (high-school and post) were shot one-by-one, in the head (according to one report) together with a mix of classmates. 50 of 136 were specifically targeted.
The response time of the authorities was low. They were not prepared for a targeted attack. The attackers, incidentally, were from a group long sponsored by the Pak military intelligence, ISI.
Better one armed human returning fire against monsters than none.
“Arming the teachers is not the answer. The answer, whatever it is, needs to happen before it even gets to a question of whether armed teachers and staff could have done anything.”
Your entire post is so full of idiotic, illogical drivel that I had to pick just one asinine part to address.
So, basically what you are saying here is:
(a) Teachers are idiots that can only do one thing…herd children in hallways, etc.
Fail
(b) You say something “is not the answer.”
To what question?
There is not “the” answer.
IMPROVING the present situation of “Gun Free Zones” is improving the situation. Allowing teachers that ALREADY have CCW’s or would choose to get them and/or take additional defense training is far better than leading our nation’s children to a slaughterhouse.
Your point that arming teachers is not “the” answer is, therefore, a straw man argument. You are setting up some idyllic perfection “it must work for EVERY case scenario imaginable or it’s not worth doing” Catch-22.
Fail
(c) Then you go on to not offer a solution – any solution whatsoever. So, your entire post is nothing more than academic, hypothetical nonsense.
Fail
Nail, meet hammer.
How deep.
So, the single best tool ever invented for self defense against armed attackers is somehow to be rejected because…why exactly?
No one is suggesting defensive firearms are the best tool for, say, fixing a flat tire. That would be an example of the hammer seeing every problem as a nail.
Protecting children from armed, violent attack is exactly the “nail” the modern firearm “hammer” is designed to address…ESPECIALLY in light of the simple observable fact that victim death rates are CLEARLY lower in cases where such armed attack is met by armed resistance.
Nice try, though. Too bad snark != logic.
Are your quotes referencing a different article?
Fail.
Did the article get a content or editorial change after your comment?
Space-time continuum fail.
Certainly allowing teachers and parents to carry is part of the solution. It’s just much more difficult to terrorize and slaughter people who are armed and can shoot back.
Will,
One or two armed parents, staff, and/or teachers could end up being not much more than a speed bump to a team of well trained and well armed suicide attackers.
On the other hand one or two armed parents, staff, and/or teachers could also put down one or more attackers and drastically reduce the number of casualties.
What we really need to consider is whether we want additional measures and what those measures would be. Never let perfect be the enemy of good.
“this doesn’t happen in Israel. You’d think if it could happen anywhere, it would be there. ”
Well, it used to happen in Israel…then they allowed armed teachers, and it stopped.
Look it up.
Oop, there it is! Oop, there it is! Oop, there it is!
Regarding armed teachers – I believe that happens only when kids are taken on field trips. I have not heard of teachers being armed inside schools. If we can believe this:
http://www.cga.ct.gov/2013/rpt/2013-R-0119.htm
Authorization to Carry Firearms in Schools
The law permits the following people to carry firearms in schools:
1. the guards (provided they are the security company’s property and not their own weapons),
2. authorized Education Ministry personnel using ministry firearms,
3. the police, and
4. the army.
Per the article, it sounds like the only permanently armed person in the school is the minimum-wage security guard who is sitting at the front desk and signs people in/out.
Uh, wouldn’t the teachers be part of the Education Ministry? What makes you assume they are not ALL armed?
Terrorists and most bad guys alike tend to choose targets based on difficulty. For example, one statistic says that you are 17 times less likely to be targeted by a burglar if it is believed you have an alarm system. If a terrorist does his homework, he will avoid a school with armed citizens protecting it, and instead choose a school that publically wears its gun free zone signs like a badge of honor. Call it security theater, deterrence, or whatever, but it does work, at lease for the guy willing to buy an alarm or arm teachers.
You make some good points. But you seem to have missed the point that these 7 guys were at work for over 3 hours, killed 185. Given your possible criticisms, if every employee was armed it would have been over in about 3 minutes, even though a few good guys were killed. It would not have been 185 good guys killed. And we have schools where the death toll could easily run into the thousands. Most of whom would die while “sheltering in place”, otherwise known as “giving up”.
Boy, was I off on that one, think I was confusing with Nigeria. Here, they were rampaging for 8 hours, not 3!
Recognizing the problem is the absolutely necessary first step. If you beat around the bush, wrap it in political correctness and avoid the real questions, you will never get the real answer. What we fought Nazi the issue was not presented as the Americans against certain individuals that have expressed certain unfavorable views against us and have actually acted on those views (with witnesses), that need to be paid close attention to; no, that would not have been the winning approach. The winning approach was very simple – kill the goddamned Nazis! If we do not acknowledge the fact that we are in a war with Islam and the Muslims are our enemies, we are bound to fail. Plain and simple.
” The winning approach was very simple – kill the goddamned Nazis!”
No, the winning approach was the destruction of German industrial ability to make war.
Hence, the Eighth Air Force and many tons of steel and high explosives.
Killing Nazis was secondary.
Of course, the Eights AAF was only part of America’s response which was only part of the Allies’ response. But the overall response was “kill the enemy!”
It will happen here if we allow Islam to flourish (period).
How do you suggest we not allow Islam to flourish? Perhaps, what, outlaw Islam? Maybe start gathering them up at night? Or are you going to recommend a full-on cattle car approach? By the way, that’s been done before, as I’m sure you’re aware.
They want a war. Give them what they claim to want, and do it by their “religion’s” rules. No pity. No mercy. No remorse. That is the standard they apply to real human beings, high time WE apply it to them.
And who is “them” 2h9? Do you plan to park yourself outside of a neighborhood mosque and cut loose and say “hey, that’s what ‘they’ want so I’m giving it to them”? Because that’s what this sort of rabid mouth-foaming rhetoric sounds like. Perhaps you mean to “bring it” to the Taliban, but that’s way different than what sounds like “let’s start killing all of the Muslims, wherever and however I can find them. No pity. No mercy. No remorse.”
And your big plan is surrender. We already know how that works out. You can not buy these sub-human pieces of sh*t off, they want your blood, not money. And they openly proclaim they want death, too. The only way humanity fails is by not giving them what they want. And again, for the slow, worshiping death is not a religion, it is a disease.
How do we not allow Islam to flourish? Make disciples of Jesus. If Christians don’t make disciples out of our young people, Islam will gladly do it for us.
The war of ideology won’t be won fighting AGAINST Islam; it will be won fighting FOR Jesus to have His inheritance… both here and in the middle east.
I never post in reply to religious oriented comments, I am agnostic, or atheist, take your pick I really just don’t care. I know that by saying anything I have already lost the argument, nobody wins a religious debate… Also if your comment is meant as either satire or sarcasm then consider the rest of this post void.
This thought makes me gag. Let us force feed our religious views down the throats of children so they may not have any rational thought of their own.
Sounds an awful lot like what they’re doing doesn’t it?
Let us create a breed of humans so blinded by their beliefs and ideology that they are willing to destroy to preserve it for future generations…
Sounds an awful lot like what they’re doing doesn’t it?
I am fortunate enough in that my parents didn’t have religion, and also that they are intelligent and understanding enough that I could have told them that I want to be a Muslim, a Christian, a Buddhist, a woman, gay, transgender, or an elephant and they would have told me they love and support me in my decision. THAT is what the world needs. Acceptance.
I’m happy for you if you have found peace in religion, and if I misunderstand your post and you’re in favor of free will, (as your God gave you), then I apologize. I however believe that trading the insanity of one religion for the brainwashing of a generation of children by another religion is not the way to go.
The leftist Educational Establishment are adherents to the Religion of Secularism. Why do they get to “force feed” their belief system to my children? The result of their force feeding of their secular religious beliefs over the past 30+ years are evident every where we look in the decline of the US and the world over.
http://www.jewishjournal.com/dennis_prager/article/secularism_great_for_government_destructive_to_everything_else
Any of you guys heard of the Crusades? Weren’t there some Christians involved there, somehow? Like, killing 1/3 of the world’s humans? Any religion, given the power, will try to kill all others and attempt to rule the world.
You are quite misinformed regarding the Crusades.
http://counterjihadreport.com/2014/08/20/new-bill-warner-video-jihad-vs-crusades/
Excellent video. Thank you.
“Like, killing 1/3 of the world’s humans?” – is this the result of Common Core?
Crusades were in response to muslims spreading their “religion” using sword and fire. As they are right now.
Interesting video.
Little side note. The crusades did not end in 13th century and were not always aimed against islam. In Europe crusaders killed christians well into 15th century. See hussite wars.
How to reduce Islam growth in US?
Stop legal immigration from countries that follow that cult.
Ban the teaching and practices of the cult in our prisons.
Officially and properly classify Islam as a cult instead of a religion. (The biggest indicator of a belief being a cult is valid fear of one’s personal safety if you publicly renounce or criticize the cult)
Don’t allow the radical whahabist (sp? I don’t give a crap) Saudia Arabia to bankroll the vast majority of mosques in the US.
That’s a start.
All religions are cults, the terms are interchangeable.
How about sprinkling bacon bits over proposed mosque sites? Then post a sign: CAUTION – YUMMY BACON BITS COEXIST, AND HAVE A NICE DAY.
Pig lard is a component of several firearm cleaner-lubricator-protectors. I have heard of units un-officialy using it…
A nice ‘Oink’ wet patch down the bore…
🙂
I love it! But do we really have to waste the bacon?
I always said if I were a senior leader in Al Qaeda I would get a list of the US Brigades deployed to Iraq and Afghanistan. (It’s all public knowledge, just pick up The Army Times.) then I’d go to Killeen Texas or Fayetteville NC. I wouldn’t attack Fort Hood or Fort Bragg. Those places have security. It’s a twenty minute walk from car to PX with all the anti-terrorism measures in place. Forget trying to get to III Corps or XVIII ABN Corps HQ. But two miles from Fort Hood’s Main Gate is a Killeen Independant School District Elementry School. You can drive up to the front door. With say a trunk load of ammonium nitrate and diesel fuel. Or chlorine. Or ammonia.
Say you kill 45 deployed soldiers’ kids. That’s 45 company commanders, battalion commanders, first sergeants, platoon sergeants out of a deployed brigade having to go home RIGHT NOW. You’ve rendered that brigade damned near combat ineffective. Not to mention all the other guys in the brigade, worried about their kids school. And they’re pissed off. They want revenge against the people who killed their buddies’ kids, their kids’ friends. Are you going to let them off the FOB when all they want is to kill someone who looks like he might be responsible?
Getting mortared nearly every night didn’t keep me awake. IEDs didn’t keep me awake. Worrying that the bastards would take the fight to my kids….that scared the hell out of me.
So, hunting them down and killing them is the answer. Funny, I have known that for 40 years. Israelis have known it for 70 years. How did you not figure it out?
Just got home from the granddaughters Christmas program in the smallish grade school auditorium. I know I wasn’t the only one there armed.
“The Pakistan School Massacre Can Happen Here”
No, it is going to happen here. Why? Because Barrack Hussein Obola AND the leadership of the Republican Party refuse to destroy the enemies of the human race. Period. Full stop.
D’jya ever notice those big yellow things packed with kids that pull up to the school the same time every day?
Do they provide any ballistic protection?
Talk about a “fatal funnel” … I cannot think of a worse situation than being confined inside a school bus while multiple open fire on the outside.
They don’t even have seatbelts.
(I re-fooose to call them “safety belts.”)
Sadly, this WILL happen someday soon, somewhere in this country. Some terrorist attacks are just too easy to do and too hard (if not impossible) to stop. Just like blowing the tunnels in NY. All four at the same time. They planned that around the time of the first WTC bombing in ’93. They’ll get back to it eventually.
I don’t think it’s a good idea to post what are the softest targets in our country. The enemy had the Internet too and they are using it quite effectively. Let’s not give them any material to research for their next attack.
I agree. I also agree that an attack on our schools is on the way. More and more school systems are allowing teachers to carry. When the attack comes, let’s be sure to check whether an armed school was chosen for the attack.
Really? Hahahahaha Yes, silence, it works so good.
If we learn only one thing from this tragedy, it should be that sheltering in place is a really stupid idea with an active shooter on the premises.
My son’s school system has moved from “shelter in place” to run, escape, hide, fight. Yet when I went before the school board asking them to allow an armed defense (as allowed under Georgia law), I was given the equivalent of a pat on the head and a “There, there, citizen. Let us handle things.” They think having one school resource officer for three schools is good enough security.
“They think …”
No they don’t.
They see their own power and control and want to hold onto/expand it.
Thinking problems through via reasoned analysis of data is not part of it. Have they ever had a bona fide (I’ll even let them define that for their own purposes) security expert do a study and report for their schools? Or, are they just parroting the BS CNN, et al tell them “to think” about school shootings and how to avoid them / lessen their severity?
Challenge them publicly to stop putting their own sense of elitist entitlement ahead of the security of the schools they are responsible for.
Agreeing with your comment and your post above, I would only add this: School Board members want to be re-elected more than they want children to live. That is to say, they take the election seriously, and if saying “your children are safe now, and armed security will not help” is popular with voters, that’s the line they will take.
” Have they ever had a bona fide (I’ll even let them define that for their own purposes) security expert do a study and report for their schools?”
Who cares? Remember, Sandy Hook Elementary had a full-blown security check just days before the attack, passed with flying colors. Check was all about cameras and locks and procedures, paid no attention to the possibility of someone shooting his way through a glass wall.
ALOHA SNACKBAR!
Arming school staff worked for Israeli. Only one school attack since they did- oh yeah, a school trip where guns couldn’t be taken. If we don’t do something it will happen here.
I bet that’s a coincidence!
Colonal Dave Grossman has been talking about this potential for years with Beslan as a template of sorts. More here:
http://www.killology.com/schoolattack.htm
Once again HOME SCHOOL. I’m glad my kids are grown and my 3 grandkids are home schooled. My younger sons were starting to get left-wing indoctrination their last few years in high school too.
But…but did they have plastic gun free zone signs? Now, that would have stopped the terrorists!.
Nuke wherever these people came from and it not only sends a message but keeps them from reproducing for a while. Then the next time a few people start thinking about doing this others around them might suggest playing cards instead.
We had sandy Hook happen and they go after legal gun owners. so we already have this here now. Something on this scale and they will be organizing turn in and pick ups of guns nation wide.
Our local district has its own police force and, in theory, there is one armed “safety office” at each school.
During a meet and greet, the district chief of police made the mistake of opening up for a Q&A session. I asked him what the district response would be if terrorists targeted the officer on site and took him out first?
I shoulda took a photo of the expression on his face. Anyway, after he recovered, he blabbered on about radio communications between the rest of security staff and that there would be cops on site within 30 seconds…blah blah blah.
Fantasy worlds are all well and good until they get people killed. Unfortunately, our elected and appointed officials all seem to inhabit the same fantasy world these days.
District policy does not allow me to be armed while at work. So, I cannot say whether or not the campus security guard and I have any back channel communications set up or if there is a bit of a “wink and nod” agreement in place.
It will happen here eventually. The Politicians, Bureaucrats and School Boards have no will (or stomach, or ideological agenda) to provide effective protection for your children. For many of them, to do so goes against their anti-gun rights ideology. They may not succeed at taking your guns, but they will succeed at getting your children killed and maimed. When it happens they will blame you for opposing gun control laws that would have kept these terrorists from having “such easy access to guns”. Steel yourselves.
Think things might have been different at that Pakistani school if there had been 6 or 7 armed former soldiers or ex-cops on the faculty? Thank Sandy Hook might have turned out differently?
It’s easy to fall into a bad habit of assuming that teachers are all a bunch of technically and physically incompetent pram-pushers who’d grow faint at being yelled at, let alone being confronted by someone trying to kill them. There are teachers like that. of course. The profession doesn’t necessarily select for warriors. But there are other teachers who, by virtue of their backgrounds, military or other kinds of training, know how to fight and are quite willing to defend both themselves and their students.
Armed teachers will save lives. Gun-free zones and pacifism don’t.
If it does happen here, you can bet your bottom dollar that you, me, and the NRA will be blamed, no matter who they are or what they’re using.
agreed.
The only reason we’ve yet to see this in USA is gun violence of this nature typically is perpetrated by types who are ill, disorganized and tend to be spur of the moment. I expect many more innocent American’s will die before the light is seen and everyone pleads to obtain a firearm for protection, therein understanding the illogical position of the anti-gun groups.