Caliber Wars Decided! – New York Times Settles the 9mm vs. .45 ACP Debate

caliber wars 9mm 45 apc

Courtesy Luis Valdes

Thanks to a recent New York Times article, People Kill People. But the Bullets Seem to Matter, it appears that the Gray Lady has finally settled the age-old, never-ending argument over the best handgun caliber for self-defense. Oh, who am I kidding? The Times randomly looked at an academic study and pieced together an anti-gun article and an attack on commonly used self-defense cartridges.

In Boston from 2010 to 2015, there were 221 gun homicides.

Research suggests that one change could have lowered that number by 40 percent: smaller bullets.

A study last year, published in JAMA Network Open, examined the type of weapon used in every fatal and nonfatal shooting in the city. It found that — regardless of the time of day, the number of wounds or the circumstances of the crime — the size of the bullet affected which gunshot victims lived and which ones died.

The NYT is looking at a study that claims that smaller bullets mean fewer deaths. That’s a conclusion that will no doubt shock most TTAG readers.

Probably the best line out of the whole piece is a quote from Gary Kleck, professor emeritus of criminology at Florida State University, when the Times’ bothered him for a comment:

“As far as I know, everyone in the field believes bigger-caliber handguns are more lethal than smaller-caliber handguns — it’s a nonissue.”

Go figure.

The source study that the Times is looking at is comprised of mostly criminal shootings. The Times concludes, based on the JAMA study, that if all of Boston’s criminals used firearms chambered in .45 ACP, there’d be a 43% increase in homicides.

Courtesy – New York Times

Crooks, in my experience as a cop, tend to use the cheapest ammo out there. Typically that includes mismatched, corroding FMJ round nose ball that’s typically fired out of a rusted out claptrap guns that would require a tetanus shot if you just look at ’em funny.

The article notes that over the past recent decades, carry guns have shrunken in size and grown in caliber. No kidding? And all this time I thought the most advanced thing on the street was a .22LR Beretta Jetfire.

Of course guns have grown in caliber. Back in the good old days, most carry guns, particularly those used by criminals, were chambered in .22LR, .25 ACP, and .32 Auto, frequently referred to at the time as “Saturday Night Specials.”

But when the 1994 Clinton “assault weapons” ban went into effect, gun companies found a greater demand for compact-sized versions of service caliber semi-autos If you’re limited to 10-round magazines, having wasted space was a waste of time.

The Times article has more shocking revelations:

A recent study of guns used by criminal gangs, also in the Boston area, found that gang members paid the most for large-caliber semi-automatic pistols, which they often bought secondhand at prices much higher than those paid by legal purchasers in gun stores. Police seizures of guns in other cities, including Chicago, also show a growing share of large-caliber handguns.

They even poke a little fun at the FBI for their recoil sensitivity.

Because the bigger ammunition tends to fire with more explosive power, the .40- and .45-caliber handguns that some Boston criminals were using can have strong recoil that can make them hard to handle or to aim subsequent shots. The trade-off between caliber and aim is, in part, why the F.B.I. and many police departments carry 9-millimeter guns rather than larger alternatives.

The article includes a tiny bit of common sense…and then douses it in gasoline and throws a match at it.

It’s true that the era of larger-caliber handguns has also been an era of declining violent crime. Homicides in most major American cities peaked in the early 1990s, just before larger-caliber pistols became common. The homicide rate has fallen nearly by half since then. But the research about weapon caliber suggests it could have dropped by even more.

“Would we have done still better with smaller guns and if we had stuck with Saturday night specials?” Mr. Cook said. “The answer is sure, absolutely. I think the shift towards more reliable and more high-powered guns has been contributing to the deadliness of gun violence.”

That rising popularity of larger caliber handguns occurred at the same time concealed carry laws were eased and more law-abiding civilians began carrying firearms. That was a major factor in those plummeting crime rates. More good guys had guns and started to shoot bad guys.

Now, though, the Times is actually defending the Saturday Night Specials that they had demonized back in the day. It is to laugh.

So the New York Times concludes that .22LR is basically like a squirt gun, 9mm is the equivalent of a staple gun, and anything shooting .45 ACP is a super mega murder death weapon. In the end . . .

There are no serious current proposals to regulate or limit the sale of handguns by caliber size. A recent anonymous survey of gun researchers by the nonpartisan RAND Corporation found that the field remains divided on the question of how much weapons matter in crime.

I think I’ll stick with .40 S&W and 10mm Auto. They completely blow the Times’ argument out of the water since they’re smaller in diameter than .45 ACP but still more powerful. How about you?

comments

  1. avatar GS650G says:

    That other caliber is kicking ass for sure. I’d like to get a walther PPQ in Other.

    1. avatar Gov. William J Le Petomane says:

      Yep, I’m a big fan of .357 magnum but if I can find a decent revolver in ‘other’ I might just have to break down and buy one.

      Probably actually .44 magnum and 10mm and maybe one or two relatively rare cartridges.

      1. But wait! It said the .357 magnum was at 72%! We all know by R.I.I., for the 125gr SJHP, ( Relative Incapacitation Index) of old put the 357 maggy at about 90% one-shot stops most of the time! (Some were column support shots…re: arms, shoulders and legs!) Which still good news for revolver fans…

        1. avatar Gov. William J Le Petomane says:

          And don’t forget that all those Federal/Remington/Winchester/etc loads are the neutered, watered down loads and the Buffalo Bore, Double Tap, etc loads are not +p but just standard full pressure loads. Although my official position is that if you’re only capable of hitting them 6 (or 5 or 7) times as opposed to 18ish times you should probably be prepared to hit them a little harder with each pull of the trigger.

      2. avatar El Duderino says:

        .41 Mag, .45 Colt, .44 Special, etc…all pretty decent fight stoppers. 🙂

      3. avatar Pj says:

        Its all about what your comfortable with shooting.doesnt matter if its a 22lr or a 454.If your comfortable shooting it more then likely you will be pretty lethal with it.also remember the little 22lr has killed more people then almost another round.its about shot placement not size.a pellet/bb gun can kill you just about shot placement.

        These type of studies/reports should be done by people that actually shoot not by liberal media hacks or professors that usually has a agenda.

        1. avatar George says:

          Agreed….l would sooner have a rookie shooting at me with a 45ACP, than an expert shooting at me with a 22LR

        2. avatar Samuel N Smith says:

          Given the laughability of “law enforcement” in this Nation of “laws” and “equal justice” the need to own a gun and carry a gun and to be proficient at placing the shot where the argument ends is becoming paramount. Can you imagine being a ” law enforcement” officer in Chicago? Those poor clowns are giving their life every day only to have some politician spit in their face.

        3. avatar Steve says:

          I agree with this.

        4. avatar Pj says:

          Its common sense which most professors and media people lack.i dont need a phd or masters or a media source or even the morons that are now in law enforcement to tell me this bs.i grew up around firearms yes the so called killing machines yes the same objects that are made up of plastic and metal.a gun cant just someone it takes flesh and blood someone with a brain,yes a person to pull the trigger or push a button.i was taught this at a very young age.same goes for any other dangerous object 99.9999999% of the time it wont hurt you if your not controlling it.the smallest vehical can kill you or someone just as easy as a massive size vehical same goes for any bullet.in the end people dont care what happens to us it just down to control.having an stupid ass agenda.so at the end of day it doesnt matter of the size of the round from a bb to a 120mm round they will all kill people they just make different size messes.

      4. avatar SoBe says:

        That’s it. I’m getting around any potential full semi-automatic and magazine standard capacity ban; buying a .44 magnum revolver. I’m keeping 9mm for squirrel hunting, where it will join my equally less than lethal 5.56mm rifle. Oh, wait, isn’t 5.56mm the Devil’s spawn and the world’s deadliest caliber. This is all so confusing. Liberals are teaching me math and that 5.56 is obviously much larger than 0.45.
        Ps, welcome back edit button!!!

    2. avatar Waiting for Creedmas 2019 says:

      The article is moot if the JAMA authors find out about the 6.5 Creedmoor.

      1. avatar Kevin says:

        Indeed. I suspect the % Fatal would be well over 100%.

      2. avatar Perry says:

        I’m still waiting for a semi-auto pistol chambered in 6.5 Creedmore. Imagine 1000-yd pistol shots!

        1. avatar SoBe says:

          Impressive, but not as impressive as my dream .50BMG pistol.

      3. avatar Tactical Dad says:

        I have to go 8 comments deep before I hear 6.5 Creedmoor mentioned?
        Fan Boys, I am dissapoint!

        1. avatar Pancake packin' Mamma says:

          IKR? But in their defense, it’s Sunday and they’re thinking Sunday dinner at Denny’s.

    3. avatar Sean G./The Rookie says:

      LMAO! This thread is awesome!!!

    4. avatar Epwrangler says:

      I have meet a number if people willing to show me their 9mm scars. Some more than one but haven’t yet had an offer from someone shot with a 45acp. Speaks for itself.

  2. avatar Eng says:

    Caliber wars are dumb, especially for defensive purposes. 1) Have a gun. 2) Shoot the bad guy until they stop. 3) Enjoy not being dead.

    1. avatar James A. "Jim" Farmer says:

      I agree it’s dumb. .45 Auto vs. 9mm Luger: use what you find most comfortable. This debate has raged now for over 100 years, even prior to World War 1 (1914-1918). Same for the M-14 vs. M-16, revolver vs. semi-automatic pistol, .30-06 vs. .270, and perhaps .30-30 Winchester vs. .32 Winchester Special, or .300 Savage vs. .35 Remington. Or in double-barrel shotguns: side by side vs. over and under. It’s really splitting hairs.

      1. avatar binder says:

        Same for the M-14 vs. M-16???? the 45 and 9mm have about the same muzzle energy, 5.56 vs 7.62, not so much.

    2. avatar Gov. William J Le Petomane says:

      ‘Caliber wars are dumb…’

      So is golf.

      1. avatar StLPro2A says:

        Golf is NOT dumb. Great way to play “Fetch” without having to train a dog. Golfers are easier to train to fetch their own ball. They will even go into the woods or water after them. Really, when I hit a little white ball as far as I can……I prefer someone else to chase it…….therefore, I prefer baseball.

        1. avatar GluteusMaximus says:

          I have trouble with that giant windmill

        2. avatar Gov. William J Le Petomane says:

          I always thought the sports of golf and trap shooting should be combined. Maybe use an orange ball, your opponents line up to the side and try to shoot your ball out of the air. If they do you either have to take a drop or play on with what’s left of your ball.

        3. avatar ROBERT Powell says:

          THE ONLY REAL USE FOR A GOLF-BALL IS A TARGET, THEY REALY JUMP WHEN YOU HIT THEM ..

        4. avatar JP says:

          A golf course is a perfectly good waste of a rifle range

        5. avatar Rad Man says:

          Try long range shooting – it’s like golf, but for men.

        6. avatar KyKPH says:

          I always thought black powder mortar golf would be fun!

        7. avatar Gov. William J Le Petomane says:

          The only thing standing between me and long range shooting is the long range. Or lack thereof. Rifles and ammo are cheap compared to 240 acres in Iowa.

        8. avatar Rad Man says:

          I can sympathize, Gov. My club has the longest range in the county – a whopping 100 yards. No long range for me either.

        9. avatar Gov. William J Le Petomane says:

          Yeah Rad, I just moved to the next town/county over and I’ll be switching from a 200 yard range ($175/yr.) to a closer 100 yard range ($50/yr.). OK, I’m a cheapskate, but that extra 100 yards isn’t worth $10/mo. I did get to thinking though, if I ever run into some money – an acre is about 209’x209′, so the right 15 acre plot could work for a 1000 yard range OR if I found the right 160 acre or 240 acre plot I could rent out all but about 10-15 acres and convert that into a 1000 yard range. Sell off a few club memberships or range days and I might have a free private 1000 yard range right in my own neighborhood. Last I heard prime cropland around here is about 10k/acre though, so I’d probably be looking for some substandard ground.

        10. avatar UpInArms says:

          Remarkably, teeny tiny little Delaware has 1000-yd. range.

        11. avatar uncommon_sense says:

          Governor,

          An acre is also just shy of a football field measuring about 48.5 yards by 100 yards. So, with just four acres end-to-end, you could have a 400 yard shooting range. If you still want to get to that 1000 yard range, you would need at least 10 acres end-to-end.

          Of course, good luck finding a parcel of property that is 48.5 yards wide by 1000 yards long.

      2. avatar Pg2 says:

        lol, good one!

        1. avatar Pancake packin' Mamma says:

          Remarkably, teeny tiny little Rhode Island IS a 1000-yd. range.
          FIFY

  3. avatar Gadsden says:

    “The Times concludes, based on the JAMA study, that if all of Boston’s criminals used firearms chambered in .45 ACP, there’d be a 43% increase in homicides.“

    What a joke. If all of Boston’s criminals suddenly used .45, the entire city would’ve been sucked into a massive cosmic void.

    1. avatar Gov. William J Le Petomane says:

      Crushed to a singularity?

      1. avatar Gadsden says:

        Indeed… crushed into a singularity… creating.. 6.5 creedmoor!!!

        1. avatar The True Believer says:

          All hail the mighty Ceedmoor!

    2. avatar Reason says:

      The rise in deaths should be only temporary. If they all used 45s and death rate on shootings goes up. Eventually they get into diminished returns as the number of bad guys goes down from them shooting each other. If they keep shooting each other they get down to only one left. And with no other bad guys to shoot at the death rate goes to zero. So you see the fastest way to a safe city is for all the bad guys to shoot each other with 45s or even the dreaded “OTHER” caliber. But only if you want to get to a safe city really quick.

      1. avatar Kendahl says:

        If bad guys shot only at each other, it would still be a problem for the NYT but not for the rest of us.

  4. avatar Jon in CO says:

    Energy wise, the handgun debate is pointless. 9, 40, 45, all basically the same. Yes, they are specific load exceptions, but overall, there’s no reason to not carry more vs less.

    I find it funny that they put 9mm in to the smaller category and 357 in the large category. Same size bullets. One just moves a hell of a lot faster. We’re taking advice from a place that couldn’t tell you why the Wood stocked mini-14 should be legal and an AR shouldn’t. Sigh.

    1. avatar Gov. William J Le Petomane says:

      Obviously they drew the line at .356″.

      1. avatar uncommon_sense says:

        That there was funny Governor!

        (For those of you who do not know, 9mm Luger is 0.355 inches in diameter versus 0.357 inches diameter for .357 Magnum.)

    2. avatar StratSG says:

      You’re right, unless you do what I did and melt them down and mold the combo into a 104. I put an explosive tip on it so it’s armor piercing. I can drop Iron Man with one well placed shot.

  5. avatar Shire-man says:

    Anti’s setting up their next line of attack for when AWB’s and mag limits die? .380 max caliber sizes like Brazil.

    1. avatar CarlosT says:

      And it’s worked wonders down there!

  6. avatar Michael says:

    I see they are still busy rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. All the News That Supports the Narrative, even if they have to make it up. -30-

    1. avatar GluteusMaximus says:

      What’s the -30- thing man?

      1. avatar Thomas says:

        That thirty is an old journalism device that indicated the end of a script/text. I remember getting Associated Press news scripts that had that thirty at the end of them. Back in horse and buggy days.

        1. avatar Pancake packin' Mamma says:

          They shot horses, didn’t they? Even without Creedmoors?

        2. avatar frank speak says:

          …also a pretty good movie…((starring Jack Webb)…

      2. avatar Dave in Fairfax says:

        It means “End” in Press-speak

      3. avatar Michael says:

        Newspaper sign off. That way I know it was me that set the post, not somebody spoofing me…guess now I’ll have to get a new one. Foxtrot-Kilo-Alpha.

  7. avatar Joseph Quixote says:

    Most left of center Americans don’t know much about how the world actually works. If you asked your average big city liberal how a car works, or where their meat comes from you get either a blank stare or gibberish. Heat, lights, clothing, building, you name it, they don’t understand it.
    The reality of guns is beyond their frame of experience. They have a fear of guns that is completely irrational. Mostly because of the social conditioning they have grown up with. That being said, anything the Times publishes is worthless except to start a fire in your wood stove.

    1. avatar California Richard says:

       “A recent anonymous survey of gun researchers by the nonpartisan RAND Corporation…”

      “..survey of gun researchers…”

      What you’re saying makes me question what qualifies as a gun researcher.

    2. avatar Uncle Bob says:

      Speaking of gibberish.

    3. avatar Kendahl says:

      Most left of center Americans have rejected the very idea of fighting back against criminals. They believe it’s not their place to do so or that trying would be futile. (Never mind that hundreds of thousands of gun owners do so successfully every year.) In that context it’s not surprising that they view private ownership of guns as something that can never benefit them but could harm them. It’s much the same as trying to persuade the resident of a big city, who doesn’t own a car and gets around using taxis or public transportation, that the 55 mph national speed limit was a dumb idea in western, fly-over states.

  8. avatar Hannibal says:

    This is along the same lines as the idiots that demonize “sniper rifles” for being accurate.

  9. avatar HuntingtonGuy says:

    Mine is bigger 🙄

  10. avatar rt66paul says:

    The best caliber is the one your gun was designed to shoot. Aim it and shoot it at the threat.

  11. avatar former water walker says:

    I came here to comment 380 in Brazil but Shire-man already said it. But Brazil is incredibly violent. And a world war started with a 380 in 1914…amazing the big brains at the NY Slimes acknowledged crime is down!😄😊😏

    1. avatar UpInArms says:

      And another world war pretty much ended with a .380.

      1. avatar John in AK says:

        Reports from people supposedly in a position to know have stated that the Little Man who spent his honeymoon on fire in a gasoline-filled pit used a Walther PP or PPK in 7.65mm (.32ACP).
        This was the standard caliber for the mostly-ceremonial pistols carried by high party officials.
        Although 7.65x17mm is not quite as powerful as 9mm Kurz, we must assume that he didn’t feel a thing; Otherwise, he would’ve complained more to Eva about the burning gasoline bit. Eva, of course, although likely quite miffed about not going somewhere on her honeymoon (except up in flames), likewise had no complaints about the lack of power in the 7.65.

  12. avatar HEGEMON says:

    So 357 SIG would confuse them terribly.

    1. avatar Bobski says:

      And the Fort Hood shooters one shot kills with 5.7 too.

  13. avatar Kendahl says:

    Talk about late to the party. Just as the rest of us conclude that caliber wars are stupid, the NYT discovers them.

    1. avatar Steve says:

      We knew this a looong time ago. What about .17 HMR or .22 magnum? Small rounds that will do just fine if I need it to.

  14. avatar Serpent_Vision says:

    “The newer guns, which started to become common in the 1990s, were semi-automatic. They could fire multiple rounds more quickly, and tended to be able to store more bullets in their magazines, meaning they required less reloading in long shootouts.”

    There’s the point of the whole article. Need to save lives by regulating these new semi-autos that never existed before the 1990s. Especially the new semi-autos in .45 ACP that are much deadlier than anything available since at least 1911.

    1. avatar MyName says:

      Yes, imagine how much safer the world would be if we only used cartridges developed before the 1990’s. In wonder if the NY Times spent any effort establishing when 9mm and .45 ACP, and the earliest guns to chamber them, were developed.

      1. avatar Jim from LI says:

        “Large caliber” handguns have been a thing since 1847, if you’re not counting single shot muzzleloaders.

  15. avatar Eli2016 says:

    I think the Grey Lady is finally getting senile or dementia. Or maybe it’s their writing staff. I cannot fathom a more idiotic article than this. No Peabody award for this tripe. My 9mm Glock will have to live with the indignity that it does not kill as well as a 45… LMFAO

    1. avatar Geoff PR says:

      “I think the Grey Lady is finally getting senile or dementia.”

      No, they are just being Leftists.

      Like little children, Leftist are convinced all problems have simple solutions…

  16. avatar Green Mtn. Boy says:

    The NYT’s doesn’t know Schist From Shineola 95 % of the time,certainly not anything to do with firearms.

  17. avatar Grumpster says:

    So banning “high capacity” magazines could result in more deaths as 10 rounds in .45 pistols become much more attractive than 10 rounds in 9MM pistols.

  18. avatar Vic Nighthorse says:

    BS! I’ve killed millions (legally in war with awesome but evil enemies) with my 2.7 Kolibri. I can’t even gel test it because it obliterates the gel block.

  19. avatar Arizona Free says:

    So when they go to investigate long gun ammo they can just skip over all 223/556 ammo. It’s basically 22 cal. with longer brass. Yeah that’s the ticket.

  20. avatar MLee says:

    Caliber, holster, carry method wars are worthless. They are page filler. They are for newbies while the wife does the dishes. For the average Joe who isn’t an instructor and practiced in every carry method and weapon system under the sun, including butt-crack carry, it’s infinitely more important to choose your weapon and caliber, obtain good training, then practice practice practice. If a person can quickly present their firearm and hit the target, in even the worst situation, you increase the odds of surviving exponentially.
    A newbie might be considering a shoulder rig because they watched Starsky and Hutch or Miami Vice and thought that was bad ass as hell. But in the end, those that are driven to excel will sort it all out. Like everyone else in the beginning, they will end up with a drawer of extra holsters, a few extra guns they got until they figured out what actually works for them.

    1. avatar Tom T says:

      The last part of your comment was scarily accurate. A collection items you look at and wonder why you ever wanted that. 😆

      1. avatar Cooter E Lee says:

        +1.

        Only accessories and optics, I have never regretted an actual gun purchase. Even the crap that has malfunctions. If you say to me, “sell it and get something better you like.” My brain returns an error and translates “keep it and buy another you might like more.”

        1. avatar Dave in PTC says:

          Same for me. Once I buy a gun it’s with me forever. It becomes part of the family.

  21. avatar Nam62 says:

    Don’t tell the NYT that the .357 & 38 is the same bullet size!!

  22. avatar Rick the Bear says:

    I suspect that Mr. Cook would be shocked, shocked I tell you, to learn that “Saturday Night Specials” were so named after “niggertown Saturday night” where low-income people attempted to settle their disagreements with small, inexpensive handguns.

    But then, post-Civil War gun laws were created to deny freed slaves their Rights and NYC’s Sullivan Act was created to deny Rights to them furriners.

    (I’m sorry that I lost the book with that SNS reference in my house fire. Maybe it was by Kopel?)

    And, as Andrew Klavan says: The New York Times, a former newspaper.

  23. avatar Jay in Floriduh says:

    I don’t need no paper to tell me. The bigger the boolit the better the boolit.
    Providing it hits the right spot.
    Littler boolits might take longer.
    But they can all be lethal.
    Except maybe.
    The infamous .9mm.

    1. avatar Pancake packin' Mamma says:

      Are you kidding? “The infamous .9mm” is the perfect California caliber! According to a “..survey of gun researchers…”, it’s extremely lethal, flies under the radar, and totally untraceable.

  24. avatar Kap says:

    I’LL stick with the .44 special, not too powerful, no slouch either so fits just right. in between the tracks

  25. avatar Justin Case says:

    So, if we just get all these gang bangers to trade in their 9 mm, .45 & “Other” caliber pistols and reissue them Glock 22’s we’d all be safer. Amiright?

    1. avatar Jedi Wombat says:

      Glock 22 is a .40 caliber, so no. Not at all.

  26. avatar NORDNEG says:

    I’ve always been a 45 cal. Type of guy… I alternate my carry guns between a 9mm compact Mega Star & my favorite, Para Ordinance P-12 compact in 45…

  27. avatar Victoria Illinois says:

    These are the same people that insisted that Soy Milk was better than cow’s milk, (hence, soyboy boobs) and ‘Save energy, wash clothes in cold water’. Yea, that gets the grease out!

  28. avatar Nanashi says:

    The paper that refuses to give up the Pulitzer it won for covering up a genocide.

    1. avatar Gov. William J Le Petomane says:

      Well put.

  29. avatar JimB says:

    Here’s what it really comes down to.
    Placement Not Displacement

  30. avatar MGD says:

    When we were growing up, we routinely had 9mm wars in our neighborhood. We shot each other with 9mm’s all day long and only got bruises from them if that. They’re harmless and the NYT proved that point. Before we would begin, we’d make sure nobody slipped a .45 in or a .357. There was always that guy.

    The NYT is my new “go to” source for firearms’ info.

    1. avatar Sean G./The Rookie says:

      +1

    2. avatar Scott says:

      Remember, 9mm only kills your body. A .45 kills your soul.

      1. avatar Dave in PTC says:

        You possess great wisdom. I salute you.

  31. avatar Steve says:

    .38 super has been there all along…

  32. avatar Narcoossee says:

    So those itty-bitty .223 rounds must not be anything to worry about…

  33. avatar Gregolas says:

    I accept the authority of the NYT on firearms no more than I accept their claim to run a professional newspaper.

  34. avatar Sid Park says:

    The Beretta Jetfire was never chambered in 22 Long Rifle.
    The Jetfire is 25 ACP. The Model 950 was also chambered in 22 Short, and was known as the Minx.
    The Beretta Model 21A, the Bobcat, was a similar looking pistol in 22 Long Rifle.
    IJS

  35. avatar possum says:

    I’d have to disagree with the price that criminals pay for a firegumn. Most of the better deals are stolen gunms. If you want a “hot” gunm and take a chance the original owner didn’t turn in a serial number. Here’s some prices I was offered on some”hot” gunms, Mini14 Stainless steel, collapsible stock$250, Rem700 30-06 $150, 1911 Springfield Gov Model$300, S&W stainless 44 mag $200, Glock 9mm $250, Walther .22 $150. The ammunition is where the prices get high. I can get $50 for 20 jhp 9mm or .45 ACP, I had one individual offer a dollar a round for .22LR. I never buy stolen gunms, to risky.

    1. avatar Perry says:

      For those of us with more time than money, reloading can help lower the cost of ammo. If you have _too_ much time on your hands, you become part of the trillion-round club.

  36. avatar Poggy says:

    All that needs to be done now is convince the criminals……. but that will never happen, so, what this would be is the law abiding are outgunned.

  37. avatar Walrus Gumboot says:

    Do criminals practice enough for competency in .45? 9mm remains easier to shoot and actually hit what you are pointing at multiple times and the ammunition is more affordable.
    Recent developments in bullets has made 9mm an effective round…for a handgun. But placement always determines lethality for any caliber.

  38. avatar Jim Hovater says:

    The NYT wouldn’t be nderstand a ballistics report if THEY wrote it. BUT: if it makes them feel any better, my 1911s are chambered in the smaller 9mm, as opposed to the more traditional, and LARGER, .45 acp.

  39. avatar Gary B says:

    The NYT is now schooling people on bullet calibers? I seriously doubt that anyone there is qualified to write anything about firearms.

  40. avatar Pduc says:

    This is where it starts. Next, they’ll have laws banning anything 1mm or larger. The mythical.9mm will become the hot ticket.

  41. avatar strych9 says:

    Obviously the science is settled. Not only is .45 superior in every way but 9mm is preferred by the effeminate with weak wrists and an inability to properly place a follow up shot any larger caliber. Grippers people, grippers.

    No, in reality, what a dumb study. No accounting for how many times the person was shot? Seriously? ‘Cause that’s not a variable at all.

    No accounting for shot placement? Maybe weak people choose 9mm because it’s what they can handle and tend to shoot people in the lower legs as opposed to a vital area. Real men OTOH, choose .45 and plant a couple center mass which tends to be fatal more often. This isn’t likely but it’s a valid hypothesis given the information here. We’d have to actually look at the data to see if we could even comment on this.

    Also, what defines a “criminal shooting”? If someone’s selling dope and a rival gang decides to kill them for their product/corner does the victim in that case have a right to self defense or is it just murder because gangs/drugs? Is the single mother in the projects guilty of a “criminal shooting” if she shoots a homebreaker because her gun wasn’t possessed in accordance with all Mass and Boston laws, rules and regs?

    It’s almost like the folks at JAMA don’t know how to science.

    1. avatar Dave in PTC says:

      Strych9, JAMA is a leftwing organ. You can download their app for your phone to read their articles/studies. The editors are the worst doctors in the worst ways. They are ivory tower arrogant nitwits who think they know better than you and me. The stuff they publish on social policy will make you gag.

      1. avatar strych9 says:

        I already hear way, way too much about what they publish because my wife’s profession means that their articles come up for discussion as often as Rolling Stone articles come up in a frat house discussion.

        I can’t count the number of times she’s come home venting about how stupid the editors at JAMA are. The folks over at Cell aren’t much better from what I gather but their discussions of enzyme reactions are something so far beyond my understanding of biochem that I just sit there and nod while she vents.

  42. avatar Jim from LI says:

    The fatality percentages mean little without the number of incidents to put into context. Just because 10 out of 21 shootings with .32s resulted in fatalities doesn’t make the statistics as reliable as 9mm or.45 data with hundreds of shootings recorded. No one is going to be trading in their 38 Spls for Seecamps.

  43. avatar Ralph says:

    The real debate is whether plain paper or The NY Slimes make a better bird cage liner.

    1. avatar strych9 says:

      I find the digital version just doesn’t hold up as well.

      1. avatar Pancake packin' Mamma says:

        You are comparing apples to samsungs. With the paper, you can lay it all over the cage. With the digital version, you must monitor its use.

  44. avatar Alan says:

    Did the N.Y. TImes actually listen when someone advised them of the differences between the two cartridges

  45. avatar Christopher S Bartlett says:

    Blah, blah, blah. Any caliber can kill. It’s about what you’re comfortable with or used to that you can shoot well. Now that we’re all armed and have our favorite ammo, let’s pray we never need it to take a life and that we shoot straight if we do.

  46. avatar Ed Schrade says:

    The most dangerous item and the one that leads to more crime is gun control and ” gun free” zones.

    1. avatar Steve says:

      So much wisdom on this thread. Finally adults are adulting, and they have brains. But alas the left thinks we don’t have any intelligence. Ha! It’s common sense. The folks that wrote this paper are to ignorant for their or our own good.

  47. avatar rob cosenza says:

    new york times where still waiting for the 45 handgun,to go off by itself its been a couple of days so far and luck.maybe the nyt can let us all in on why,the darn firearm won,t fire all by itself.any tips the nyt can enlighten us about those firearms that you keep telling us about,that kill people.nyt here,s a silly thing someone just told us,that it take a finger to pull the trigger,before a firearm goes off.but we laughed at him.and said can,t be true the nyt and other anti gun people keep telling us.that its the firearm alone that kills people.straighten this guy out who told us that of all {the stupid things it takes a finger to pull the trigger of a firearm}to make it fire. cmon nyt go to bat for us and straighten this guy out. ha ha

  48. avatar Russel L Davis says:

    I prefer my 45s because I like them better than my 9s and am more accurate with them. I came up with what I think is the perfect load. My casual daily is one of a couple 380s because of size. I have everything from 22 to 45 and still prefer those two for heavy and casual carry. When it gets right down to just throwing lead out for no reason at all, I will take a 22 anytime.

  49. avatar Doc81 says:

    No comments about a FN 5.7 or a 22TCM? Both fired from handguns with muzzle velocities in the 2000 FPS neighborhood. As an old retired Army Ordnance Officer I’d tell you that either will raise as much hell with your body parts as any 45 acp.

  50. avatar El Duderino says:

    So, NYT, when can I go get my full-auto .25ACP with a 25 round doublestack? Since it’s not very deadly and all.

    Don’t lie…you all would buy one.

  51. avatar Mark says:

    Guess I’ll stick with my .45.

  52. avatar Cuteandfuzzybunnies says:

    Ok no shit you can’t carry larger caliber handguns in Oklahoma.

    This is so funny. Whoever wrote this article is the biggest idiot the antis have mustered so far. By their logic a 44 magnum would be less effective than a 45 or 357

  53. avatar Mikial says:

    Typical Liberal drivel based on . . . well . . . not much, really.

  54. avatar BigNick says:

    I wonder if we could use this to trick liberals into passing a law requiring all firearms to be chambered in .223. It’s a very small round. Must be barely lethal.

  55. avatar John C. says:

    So bigger is better?
    Someone better send off a letter to the military and ket them know they are doing it all wrong using that puny little 5.56.
    Gotta love it when the left writes a column of such intelligence and in depth understanding of something they know nothing about.

  56. avatar Ric says:

    What the chart shows is that 9mm is by far the most popular caliber. And that criminals don’t generally shoot very well

    Mercysdad.com

  57. avatar Brian says:

    Read the original JAMA article… NY Times gets it wrong. In some of their analyses number if hits is statistically different between deads and woundeds. Also indoors vs outdoors was statistically different in all analysis. Caliber debate not settled by JAMA article..just by NY Times.

  58. I have been a constant fan of 230gr .45cal (thats just my choice)
    but, any bullet will kill.
    “A bullets placement is what Kills, not bullet displacement.”

    1. avatar DJ says:

      I go with a Super Soaker in 45 or 44.

  59. avatar Bradley Cripple says:

    Regardless of caliber, it has a lot to do with shot placement.

  60. avatar Chris Gough says:

    If you really know how to read and conclude with an educated observation, you will note that 9mm and 357mag are the same bullet diameter and yet, the 357 mag. is the MOST LETHAL caliber. Fewer people were shot by the 357mag, but 90% of those were fatal. So, meaning, that its “Velocity” combined with size that matters and NOT just size. “”””””””””””””””A good analogy would also destroy the gun clip debate, as the OLD REVOLVER is MORE Deadly than a high capacity 9mm”””””””

  61. avatar Nicholas Carver says:

    Anything the left says is a lie to push an agenda. Truth is liberal truth is conservative, but the left does not value truth only power.

  62. avatar Anonymous says:

    The Times concludes, based on the JAMA study, that if all of Boston’s criminals used firearms chambered in .45 ACP, there’d be a 43% increase in homicides

    Why would I want to reduce homicides between murderous gangs?

  63. avatar GlockMeAmadeus says:

    This informative NYT journalism settled science article is clear, only 44Mag and 500S&W should be legal calibres for unprofessional non trained civilians, so when some wildeyed terrorist colluding NRA gun nut tries to shoot a baby or a nun or Soros funded Antifa hero as they are wont to do, they will flinch and miss.

    And the police should only carry 22 CB shorts in 8 inch barrel revolvers so their gender fluid new hires will be extremely accurate in taking down the NRA terror mongers who refuse to recycle and drive SUVs.

    Bigger calibres save lives. Thank you NYT for exposing this collusion. Another Pulitzer on the way!

    1. avatar Brian_in_NC says:

      Brilliant.

  64. It doesn’t really matter what caliber you use, with all the “special” rounds your gonna do damage. Reguardless a responsible gun owner only cares about one thing. Keeping his or her loved ones safe. Not to mention, that typically when you start punching holes in someone, they tend to loose their fight really quickly reguardless of caliber. This debate is kinda retarded though. Shoot what is comfortable for you. Who cares what anyone else thinks…

  65. avatar Patrick says:

    Everything else being equal, .40 is less deadly than .45, .45 than .50, .50 than .55, .55 than .60, and so on.
    Regarding reality, not all else is equal. Why do some of these people have jobs?

  66. avatar Responsible gun owner says:

    Wait so you criticize “cherry picking” data but your counter argument is “Crooks, in my experience as a cop, tend to use” followed by a bunch of fud-lore?

    My side’s are hurting from the uncontrollable laughter!!!

    My guess is this comment will quickly be buried 😉

  67. avatar Robert Miller says:

    The studies decide nothing at all. They look only at HITS, not hits and misses. It is a no brainer that a bigger bullet causes more tissue damage. Handguns impart little hydrostatic shock, so they kill by striking major organs and blood vessels. Bigger bullets do this better than smaller bullets.

    But you have twice the capacity with smaller calibers. That gives you more shots and hence a greater probability of a hit. It gives a greater probability of multiple hits.

  68. avatar Pistol Pete says:

    Shoot ’em, hit ’em repeat.
    Left wing masses are such asses as the rich and famous ones all have body guards.

  69. avatar Mike says:

    If the Times article has done ANYTHING, it’s to convince me that I need to give .357 Sig another look (357 magnum power, but with more rounds and more manageable recoil).

    1. avatar RM says:

      357 python 8in barrel has suprising low recoil.
      I can load just as fast as magazine fed pistol.

    2. avatar RM says:

      40 and 10mm are my preferred sizes but 9mm is so much cheaper and easier to find

      1. avatar Mike says:

        I’ve got 9mm, but per the Times, .357 is more lethal. Shooting to wound is a dick move, so maybe .357 is a way to go; and I’m a semi-auto guy for life, so .357 Sig. I’d be perfectly happy to not shoot anybody, but if it comes to it…
        * some sarcasm was employed in reference to the authority of The New York Times to talk about the lethality of handgun calibers

  70. avatar Justin Emery says:

    Why should there be any debate? Use what you have available to you, and practice enough that, when the animal waste collides with the rotating air movement machine, you’ll land well placed hits where it matters most. Since what matters MOST is having the gun on you, and having enough experience with that gun that you can use it effectively, if I see a good deal on a .38 Special, guess what, that might just become a primary CCW gun for me.

    We might as well stop beating that dead horse, because there is nothing left of it; it has been beaten that much.

  71. avatar Josh says:

    That article is silly, but .40 is not more powerful than 45acp. 10mm on the other hand does deliver more ft/lbs of force

  72. avatar Lynn CIrcle says:

    I used to carry a .45 1911 with 9 rounds. Now I carry a 9mm with 19 rounds. Studies show that when using modern hp ammunition, there is no significant difference between .45 and 9mm. But being hit TWICE by a 9mm hollowoint is certainly going to cause more damage than being hit ONCE by a .45 hollow point. Plus it really is easier to shoot more accurate, especially with follow-up shots.

  73. avatar Joe William says:

    Shot placement is the major factor in lethality, that doesn’t seem to be considered at all. 9mm being way more popular for novices and gang bangers who never go to a target range, it makes sense that they would have worse shot placement than some old school 1911 guy. I’m a .45 guy myself but I keep a.40 in my nightstand the idea that a 9mm is less lethel is BS. In fact if I ever decide to start carrying, it would most likely be a 9 with +Ps.

    1. avatar mcscheck says:

      Didn’t mean to steal your thunder… Just stated the same thing at the same time…

  74. avatar mcscheck says:

    Shot placement, not caliber is key. A .22lr in a lethal zone will be more effective than a .45ACP that is not… Granted some exaggeration here but you catch my drift I’m sure.

  75. avatar Lowell says:

    Oh gawd, not this again……

    .45ACP was designed in the FMJ-only era, and if you are limited to only FMJ then you probably do want .45ACP over 9mm. Hollowpoints change the whole argument. It’s not that .45ACP is somehow less effective than it’s always been, it’s that 9mm is now acceptable in performance with the reduced recoil and increased round capacity that it’s always had.

    1. avatar Aaron says:

      well, a 115 grain 9mm round weighs half of what a ball .45 round weighs. so, another consideration is that if you are carrying your “house” (i.e. your poncho) and all your ammo, weapons, and poguey bait on your self, then 9mm is superior because you can carry twice as much. For some crazy reason, the military has decided that we shoot people with 30mm HEDP from Apaches,120mm cannister from tanks, or 155mm HE from artillery, but cannot shoot enemy combatants with puny-ass hollow point pistol rounds,

      but point taken, .45 ball is better than 9mm ball, shot for shot.

  76. avatar Rsm61 says:

    What can you expect from an anti gun, anti knowledge paper? Mistakes, misinformation, and misleading propaganda.

    1. avatar Steve says:

      That and it’s far more dangerous than any danger they think exists with certain calibers.

    2. avatar frank speak says:

      for all their vaunted “education”…people who write about something they know nothing about can come across as looking pretty foolish……

  77. avatar Brian_in_NC says:

    Honestly, I appreciate the Slimes for straightening me out on this — I have completely rethunk things now but want the original author to double-check my Doublethink…

    From now on, I should shoot my .40 S&W at things I want 55% dead, use my Blackout pistol when I want even less lethality, and maybe save my .OTHER SOCOM pistol just for special occasions?

  78. avatar Carl holm says:

    Franz ferdinand was killed by the lowly 7.65 browning, not the uber powerful .380.
    Nobody knows for sure what hitler offed himself with.
    A well placed .32acp is better than a 44 shot into space.

  79. avatar Mike Godfrey says:

    Alternative title for this article;

    I’m too lazy to write original content so I’ll rip apart someone’s else’s study

    There, now it makes more sense to me!

  80. avatar Michael S McCall says:

    The article fails to take into account the different variations of ammunition for each caliber. For example: a .45acp ball round will do less damage than a .45acp hollow point and the H.P will do less damage than a .45acp Talon bullet. Each design of the above mentioned types of bulles were developed for specific targets. Ball ammo is purely military… Designed to penetrate past equipment worn by soldiers and into the body. It will penetrate the old steel hements but not the modern ballistic helments or body armor. The Hollow Point is designed to expand into soft tissue and doe not penetrate moden body armor. These two designs also release the kenetic energy into soft tissue. Bullets such as the Talon, are designed to expend some of its kenetic energy in expanding it’s ‘fingers’ just as it impacts soft tissue and shread the entry wound, thus making it impossible to be treated. The target most likely will bleed out before medical attention can be administered.
    All calibers can kill regardless of bullet design. Shot placement is only part of the key to ending an attack.
    So a better study needs to be done that includes real world data on how well certain bullet designs affect the outcome of gunfights.

  81. avatar 24and7 says:

    The best caliber is
    1) shot placement
    2) shot placement
    Enuff said..

    1. avatar Aaron says:

      wait, you forget rule #3: shot placement

      1. avatar frank speak says:

        when you find yourself in a situation where you may only get one shot…the .45 is clearly preferable…

  82. avatar Aaron says:

    I prefer a pistol in .70 caliber musket ball…ain’t no replacement for displacement, according to NYTs.

  83. avatar Rob says:

    Fake news.

  84. avatar Derringer Dave says:

    So, the NY Times says smaller is better, LOL.
    No surprise, as they’re speaking from personal experience of the size of their own anatomy.
    I suppose the NY Times thinks that to save lives, we should all switch to the mythical .9 mm that’s so often written about in print media news stories, because the .9 mm is only 1/10 the size of the 9 mm.

  85. avatar Michael Twidle says:

    How about most shooting are done by repeat offenders. Before banning anything, lets try life in prison for using a firearm during the commission of a crime.

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