Gun Rights Infighting Will Only Weaken Us for the Battles Ahead

courtesy theofficialvipnews.com

Reader Elliot writes:

What started as a few people withdrawing their memberships from the NRA has turned into big names fighting over who the biggest purist is and publicly putting down other organizations. LeaSpeed6 is now publicly battling Collin Noir and I see this getting bigger. Gun rights supporters are drawing lines in the sand and dissociating from other groups, fracturing our movement into smaller and easier-to-beat groups.

First, let me tell you where I’m coming from. I don’t know if they’ll use me, but I volunteered to be a plaintiff for the Firearms Policy Coalition’s bump stock lawsuit. I support the SAF, GOA, and FPC. I own a bump fire stock and have never even opened the packaging…but I will fight to keep it.

I don’t need to go into why, as your readers know all too well. I think concealed carry licenses are unconstitutional and that I should be able to carry anywhere that a private property owner doesn’t prohibit it. I want to be able to buy an automatic rifle from my corner gun store without any permission needed. I’m certainly in agreement with the positions taken by most of the people throwing rocks right now.

I have written to the NRA to tell them of my displeasure with not only their position on bump stocks, but with their obsession with getting money and their lack of support for some black gun owners. They have been disgusting. But…we all would be remiss to think that in the future battle for semi-automatic rifles (it is coming), that it won’t be the NRA that will be the biggest player in keeping that from happening.

We are all on the same side, just to varying degrees. It doesn’t mean we have to agree or even support organizations that don’t completely align with our position. But we don’t need to fight and cause activist gun owners to pick sides and weaken our cause overall.

The NRA has gone through reformations before and we must continue to fight for that, just as the Democrat and Republican parties fight to reform their parties to their way of thinking. But if we just kick them to the curb altogether, we will only weaken our position in the future.

This public infighting will work for now, but when we have an all-Democrat executive and legislative branch we might find ourselves too weak to oppose it. History tells us it will happen again. Can’t we all just get along?

comments

  1. avatar tsbhoa.p.jr says:

    i’ll try,
    “glock’s are really cool.”
    i guess that wasn’t so bad, i do kinda feel better.

    1. avatar Michael Stilinovich says:

      You bet Glock’s are just right for you… I’ll stick with my Smith’s, Ruger’s, Sig’s and you get the idea….

      1. avatar Michael Stilinovich says:

        But I really do feel better !!!!

      2. avatar Yarbles says:

        And you can have em, Boyoh!

        I’ll stick with my Glocks and 1911’s.

        Ya know I think this was just the kind of thing that Elliot was writing about….

        1. avatar tsbhoa.p.jr says:

          let me try again,
          “glocks aren’t gay.”
          feels good to be out.

        2. avatar Erik Weisz says:

          They are though. And that’s okay.

      3. avatar Blkojo says:

        I get it. Apostrophe’s (sic) are the idea.

    2. avatar Michael Stilinovich says:

      I’m going to stay in the closet, it is after all the only place I can have a drink.

    3. avatar arc says:

      Glocks are easily converted to machine pistols. Great dooms day weapon.

    4. avatar frank speak says:

      not recommended for break dancing!…

  2. avatar RA-15 says:

    Well said Elliot. It sometimes takes a village to raise a child. I completely agree POTG , 2A Supporters must realize our rights are on the line. All of them & all of us.

  3. avatar New Continental Army says:

    Good article. The liberals have us almost right where they want us. The only thing they need is a couple more seats in the senate and the presidency, and they can have their way with the 2A. The good news is we have two years to try and bring the movement back together again. Anyone who says it’s futile and we should just give up is a flat out retard. Not only did we stop Obama, we took over 1,000 democratic seats from them over the course of his presidency, and ever since the 80s, we’ve been winning on the state level. I remember when conceal carry and open carry was flat out illegal in most places of the country until relatively recently. Now it’s the opposite. It’s not an unwinnable fight.

    1. avatar GluteusMaximus says:

      If they get power again, and they will. It seems obvious to me they will never relinquish it again. They have revealed themselves to be the totalitarians we always expected them to be.

      1. avatar William Burke says:

        The Other Party is pretty clearly well on the way to a schism between the mainstream Dems and the nutball extreme left. It’s not the best thing for them, but it is for us.

        Take heart – whenever they lose they only thing they know how to do is double down on whatever it was that made them fail in the first place.

    2. avatar Raoul Duke says:

      “ever since the 80s, we’ve been winning on the state level”

      Maybe the right to carry but carrying a pistol isn’t the be all, end all of the 2nd Amendment. You don’t win wars with handguns.

      States have been enacting AWB’s, mag cap limits, mandatory registration, universal background checks, and the new law hitting the nation straight out of California, red flag laws where your gun(s) can be taken on a whim because someone thinks you are unhinged and shouldn’t have them!!

      State level, my butt!!

      1. avatar Sam I Am says:

        “States have been enacting AWB’s, mag cap limits, mandatory registration, universal background checks, and the new law hitting the nation straight out of California”

        In the classic sense, you are witnessing “federalism”. But only because it pleases the central committee. When the central committee don’t like ’emselves to see states resisting the central committee, then them central committee will declare that the central government is superior, and state laws to the contrary are not permitted.

        And we POTG ( largely constitutional originalists) are left supporting federal legislation to override state legislation. How’s that for forked tongue?

  4. avatar Mike Hawkizard says:

    “We are all on the same side, just to varying degrees…”

    And that’s the problem. We need to all be in lock step. That’s why the anti’s will win eventually, they’re united around a common goal of universal disarmament among the citizenry.

    Until our own side (read: Fudds) stop saying “no one needs”, we’ll never have unity.

    1. avatar CZ Rider says:

      That’s the first thing I thought seeing the headline. Putting aside disagreements about methods or external things? Sure. The NRA thing is not “infighting” that we can put aside, though, because they have as of late been working in direct opposition to the cause of firearms freedom, have gotten truly worrying results for their efforts, and have attempted to “walk back” their support by side-stepping in a direction that is in no way better than the one they were originally going. I mean, really – you call for ATF to review bump stocks, the president orders them to do something that could legitimately be described as tyrannical, and your response is “amnesty”? Really? That’s either the worst 4D holo-chess move of the century or a clear sign that it’s time to find someone else to be the 800-lb gorilla on gun rights.

      1. avatar EWTHeckman says:

        ^^ This! ^^ So much this! ^^

        The 2nd Amendment is written using the most absolute language in the entirety of the Constitution. The reason such language is used is because the authors clearly understood the process of incrementalism—small, seemingly innocuous steps that when added together lead to the practical or total elimination of the right they intended to protect. The NRA has openly sided with the forces of incrementalism.

        For the last several years I’ve been watching the NRA closely for signs that they could turn back to actually defending the Second Amendment as written and intended by its authors. It was looking promising for a while. But between their call for banning bump stocks because they agree with the NFA and @#*&#@ Hughes Amendment, and their calculated moves to prevent correcting course from the inside, that hope is all but gone.

        Maybe it’s time for the plodding dinosaur to fade into history, existing only as a shadow of its current self, engaging only in those core activities that it’s actually good at: teaching people how to shoot safely and accurately and teaching organizations how to build safe ranges. Maybe it’s time for them to step aside and let the smaller, faster, more specialized groups do what they do best, which s actually defending the Constitution and the inherent human rights it was written to protect.

        1. avatar Shire-man says:

          I can see it now. The NRA is dead, GOA or some other more absolutist org reigns and predictably the left begins to spin nostalgic yarns of the once great, noble and reasonable civil rights organization that was forced into exile by a fringe yet mobilized body of extremists

        2. avatar Ed G says:

          Agreed, but think about this. What type of vilification would you (or I) receive if we were outspoken to the point that we started talking about standing against the government to protect our citizenship and freedom, which is one of two reasons why the 2A exists. “A tyrannical government” We are Americans, our government is turning into China.

          Personally I think it’s too late and we will eventually not have a Second Amendment.

        3. avatar EWTHeckman says:

          Vilification is the Left’s number 1 tactic. (See “deplorables”.) They always demonize those they disagree with. Even those in good standing with the Left can only reduce their chance of being attacked, not eliminate it completely. If a currently, card-carrying Leftist has ever said or written anything that disagrees with current dogma—even if that dogma only changed 5 minutes ago—even a Leftist will be vilified once that BadThink is discovered.

          So if the options are A) Do the [morally] right thing and be vilified for it, or B) Give in and be vilified anyway, why not just go with option A? At least option A has a chance of helping others in the long term plus the ability to sleep at night knowing you did the right thing to the best of your abilities. (And if you’re a Christian, knowing that you will receive the only approval that actually mattes.) If you go for B, everyone loses.

        4. avatar Bob999 says:

          And that is how a freedom dies. What if the allies during WWII decided that Stalin was too evil to partner with? What if the US decided that it still had a grudge with Britain over the Revolution? What if Britain decided that Progressivism in the US in the 30’s, which is similar to the ideas of National-Socialism, was immoral and disqualifies them to fight with the British? If any one of those scenarios happened, the world would have been lost. Should we eject the NRA from the fight because of their stance on a range toy? Are you so pure that you would sacrifice the outcome of the war to win some insignificant battle over a range toy? Look, without the NRA, this movement to protect the 2nd Amendment is done. GOA may be “pure”, at least until it is not, but it will never have the strength of the NRA. Without the NRA, the GOA and these other groups will be picked off one by one with hardly any effort, and any person of reasonable intelligence knows this. If you doubt me, answer this question: Why is the DNC putting so much effort and money in its attacks on the NRA? Why not attack the GOA or these other 2nd amendment organizations? The answer is that the DNC is fighting to win the war on the 2nd amendment, and the NRA is their only significant obstacle. So, when you guys are done carrying the water for the DNC, and you decide you want to help rather than dismantle our alliances, get out of your armchair and get in the fight!

        5. avatar Raoul Duke says:

          And people like Bob999 are the problem willing to just give the Dems something for nothing.

          Way to go, moron. It is people like you that the 2nd Amendment is in the state it is in. “Just give them that range toy bump-stock.” Next it’s, “give them your AR-15, give, give, give” while we get nothing. You don’t get to pick and choose. Everything is off the table.

          We aren’t the problem, Bob. You and the NRA are the problem just giving the tyrants what they want thinking it will make them go away. Great plan, genius!!!!

          So either join US or get out of the way!!

  5. avatar Ken says:

    Together we stand, divided we fall.

    1. avatar uncommon_sense says:

      Ken,

      How can we stand together with supposed 2nd Amendment advocates who support infringements?

      I liken this to a scenario where a large group of thugs have declared their intention to rape a group of women — and some of the supposed advocates for the women are arguing to let the rapists fondle the women in order to avoid unpleasantries. Would there be voices calling for all of the women’s advocates to “just come together” and agree on fondling? Not just no, but HELL NO!

  6. avatar SurfGW says:

    To win this PR battle requires a good information campaign. Perception is everything and women and minorities give credibility. We cannot afford to have a woman and a African American male fighting each other when they should be pressing the same points (save their disagreement for private conversation).
    Gotta battle intelligently

    1. avatar SoCalJack says:

      I agree. Unfortunately, we will keep having these “mass shootings” and the left media will keep leveraging the “gun violence” against our 2A rights. But today’s POTG are a diverse group (e.g. race, age, political/social-economic background, sexual-orientation, etc.). I hate to say it, but NRA is our best shot at leading the reshaping the public’s image of us. CA’s gun groups do support NRA and I can only assume it’s the same with other states.
      So how do we move forward intelligently?

      1. avatar CZJay says:

        First get rid of the gatekeepers…

      2. avatar Elaine D. says:

        @SoCal

        I used to be an NRA member. Let go of it because I didn’t like the anti gay stuff and saw it as a detriment to getting real traction on gun issues since most Americans believe in marriage equality at this point. Don’t currently belong to any org, waiting to see how these new ones progress and if they can manage to stay away from all the stuff that isn’t about guns in order to talk intelligently about guns.

        For me, a question I would need to see answered is the question of whether the NRA is taking money from foreign governments. If they are, how much money and what those foreign governments are “getting back” from their “investment” is something I would need to see full disclosure about before considering rejoining the NRA. I don’t like the idea of giving money to what I think is an American gun rights organization if it’s actually taking huge chunks of cash to play politics from foreign interests. I’m still waiting to see what comes out of the Maria Butina plea deal.

        1. avatar frank speak says:

          we’re resigned to it…doesn’t mean we believe in it….

        2. avatar 556SBR says:

          “I don’t like the idea of giving money to what I think is an American gun rights organization if it’s actually taking huge chunks of cash to play politics from foreign interests. I’m still waiting to see what comes out of the Maria Butina plea deal.”

          You really think that the NRA was taking huge chunks of cash from the Russians? You were wearing your tin foil hat yesterday.

        3. avatar Charlie Foxtrot says:

          Well, the NRA stepped into that one. Imagine the Clinton Foundation having a Maria Butina situation. The outrage in gun forums about that would be huge. But, since it is the NRA, it seems to be fine to be influenced by a foreign government actor. The NRA does not have to disclose the source of its donations, so we really have no clue how much foreign money the NRA received.

        4. avatar doesky2 says:

          So for all the religious and common-sense gays that are against gay marriage they are anti-gay?
          Your bigotry is on display.
          See how do you like it?

  7. avatar Ralph says:

    POTG are all rugged individualists, not lily-livered collectivists, so a degree of factionalism must be expected. The rest of the anti-NRA venom is being spewed by the concern tr0lls who have staked out TTAG as their hunting ground.

    1. avatar -Peter says:

      Well said. We can all disagree on certain specifics, yet still support the 2nd Amendment. I don’t own a bump stock, but I support others’ right to have one if desired.

      The NRA got this one seriously wrong, and I said as much when they called me dialing for dollars last week. I will probably still renew my membership when it expires (as long as I see the NRA as more ally than foe), but they won’t see any money from me until then.

      I hope their leadership gets the message from the members.

      1. avatar George from Alaska says:

        NRA called me for money last week, guy obviously reading from a script because every time I tried to ask a question or get a word in edgewise he just reverted to the script. I told him to get a pen and take notes or type this down…. That I will not give them another cent until I hear them publicly oppose and join the suits or file their own lawsuit against the bumpstock ban. I remember reading from the NRA at least twice that they would resist the ban… haven’t heard squat yet and I’ve got about 60 something days to decide what to do with my bumpstock on an AR-15. I’ve got a few registered NFA machineguns and I guess they are OK, for now, but I am getting terminally tired of the back and forth Federal law.. rulings? .. opinions? on braces and bumpstocks and now I can’t take a punch and cut out a new wipe for my Ghost suppressor?? Someone put different mushrooms on the Feds pizza, they are not making much sense, especially lately.

        1. avatar Geoff "Jingle *this*..." PR says:

          “… I’ve got about 60 something days to decide what to do with my bumpstock on an AR-15.”

          Bury it somewhere off of your property. It’s made of plastic, so no metal detector will find it and it won’t rust.

          If things blow over, dig it back up. If not, you know where it is…

  8. avatar Robert Kling says:

    It’s not infighting because the NRA is not pro-2A. The myth of the NRA being a 2A supporter needs to die. Make 2019 be the year you trade your NRA membership for a GOA membership and start sending money to a real pro-2A group.

    1. avatar Britches McGillicutty says:

      ^
      This.

      Reality hurts sometimes. We’ve been conned by the NRA for a long time. Better to accept the truth and move on than try to justify our past mistake to ourselves. It’s juvenile and sad.

      1. avatar CZJay says:

        But they only smack us around sometimes. They love us and our guns, but sometimes we have to take a few hits for the greater good. They make mouth guards for a reason.

  9. avatar Sam I Am says:

    The battle between gun owners over 2A is righteous. The “purist” position is the only “correct” stance. We are living the world the non-purists impose on us.

    No matter how big the hammer, you just cannot pound common sense into some heads.*

    *borrowed phrase.

    1. avatar George from Alaska says:

      I agree with you 110%

  10. avatar Eli2016 says:

    But we don’t need to fight and cause activist gun owners to pick sides and weaken our cause overall.

    Well stated Elliot. Unfortunately gun owners do pick sides whereas the left accepts all regardless of tastes. You don’t need to be an NRA member but dammit don’t denigrate those that choose that path.

  11. avatar Roger Pemberton says:

    The reason for this is simple some people that claim to be for rights and freedom believes that there should be limits put on those rights and freedom. With limits there can be no freedom in rights. For the firearms community that means every anti gun anti freedom law that has been passed be repealed and the record set straight for things like national carry and all the anti gun folks told to go get bent. If we could all agree on those basic principles I believe we would be a formidable force. Unfortunately we can’t. What is even more unfortunate is the people that want to take guns away have no problem agreeing on what they want.

  12. avatar ROBERT Powell says:

    we are dealing with six-year-olds ,the anti-gun people have been indoctrinated since birth on resist-resist-resist.the communist doctrine as pushed by the demons that are teaching our kids. they know no difference. the modern method of bait and switch in school books and television,games ,comic books? ,and toys designed for snow-flake kids .there is no good gun owner. they get NO HISTORY that hasen’t been socialized by the marxist demons. IT IS TIME FOR SOME MAJOR CHANGES IN OUR EDUCATION SYSTEM,K THROUGH GRAD SCHOOL…

    1. avatar Charlie Foxtrot says:

      … ironically posted with many English language errors.

  13. avatar Red Eagle1 says:

    We the People need to start a well organized Malitia that is only regulated by the US Constitution and inturpritated by the SCOTUS.
    WE THE PEOPLE out number the treasonous corporate bureaucrats!

    1. avatar SPEELING KOP says:

      Not to be a spelling cop, but please take a few extra seconds to review your writing before you post something like this. It really casts shade on your opinion when you communicate with the writing skills of a grade-schooler. It can make us all look bad.

      1. avatar HP says:

        I suspect those errors were deliberate and that post was sarcasm.

  14. avatar former water walker says:

    Golly let’s all hold hands and do a circle jerk…no unity until the Millennium. I don’t hate the NRA. I just want them to do better. We’d all be screwed if not for old Wayne & fogey’s after Newtown. Big dog and the ONLY gun group EVER mentioned by the corrupt lamestream media!

    1. avatar New Continental Army says:

      The funny thing is all the left wing media hate actually made the NRA far more powerful and bigger then they ever were.

      1. avatar Ed G says:

        It made the NRA bigger, but not more powerful. That’s the problem. The NRA is us. It’s not NRA headquarters. What are they without us? No different then our constitutional rights. No one wants to jump ship. It’s always “Oh well they’re the loudest voice” Well if we all join GOA or SAF collectively, THEY’D be the biggest voice.

        I live in the Peoples Republic of NJ. One of the worst 2A states ever. We have 1.3 million gun owners with over 3 million guns in a state with 9 million people. We could flip this state in a second. NO ONE is unified no matter how hard activists try. So if it’s a problem in one state, trying to organize a whole country is virtually impossible. That’s one thing the libtards got going for them. They are more organized then we are even though we outnumber them.

    2. avatar CZJay says:

      The NRA is the Left’s Osama bin Laden / Al-Qaeda. They need a specific group or person to demonize and dehumanize to get what they want. It’s very simple social engineering / mind control, the kind you use on very young children.

      1. avatar VerendusAudeo says:

        Or, you know, Republicans. Look out! Hillary Clinton and George Soros are right behind you paying a gay Muslim communist to illegally immigrate and gay email marry you in the Benghazi!

        1. avatar Raoul Duke says:

          They are.

          If want to sellout your country to people who hate the 2nd Amendment and individualism that makes you the problem, not us.

          But keep living with your head in the sand and don’t b**** at us for calling out your hypocrisy and ignorance.

    3. avatar strych9 says:

      “Golly let’s all hold hands and do a circle jerk…”

      This requires more than two hands per person.

  15. avatar Charlie Foxtrot says:

    The assumption here is that somehow the NRA will reform itself along the way. That is simply not going to happen without infighting! The list of problems with the current NRA is long and didn’t just start with the bump fire stock debacle. While I think that Rob Pincus can be an ass sometimes, I highly recommend reading his recent Facebook post: https://www.facebook.com/RobPincusPro/posts/2007147789368037

    “Nostalgia is a powerful thing and Reagan is a god-like figure to the social conservative portion of Americans that the NRA has been pandering to for a couple of decades now. But, he wasn’t a friend to gun owners… too many gun owners don’t realize that and the NRA doesn’t care enough to worry about those of us who do. Sadly, there are still hundreds of thousands of people who take anything the NRA puts out as gospel and another couple of million who rationalize their support for the organization in a variety of ways that make less and less sense every month. The NRA’s post yesterday was perfect, seeing as they are still defending their choice to present President Trump as Pro-Gun. His administration has already done more damage than Obama’s did and the NRA has yet to sanction his actions. Trump’s “Make America Great Again” rallying cry appeals to the effects of nostalgia as well. It’s powerful and it works… but, it’s disingenuous and backwards facing. It appeals to selective memory, illusion and (at best) hopes & dreams for an imaginary future. It does not speak to the real problems we have and the work that needs to be done to today and tomorrow.

    Here’s another Ronald Reagan Quote: “I do not believe in taking away the right of the citizen for sporting, for hunting and so forth, or for home defense. But I do believe that an AK-47, a machine gun, is not a sporting weapon or needed for defense of a home.” ~Ronald Reagan

    The dysfunction at the NRA – National Rifle Association of America
    has become so accepted that missteps like this are liked and shared gleefully by members in social media without a blink. And, missteps are being made more and more often in the desperation of what surely are the death throes of the current leadership team. But, how long will we continue to suffer through this? The Board of Directors is important and Member votes are largely meaningless. Even if every voting member was organized this year (against the Deck Stacking Machine of the nomination committee to keep people like Marion Hammer involved…) to write in the names of true reformers (and vote for Adam Kraut, the only person on the current ballot that I believe is a true no-compromise reformist) and every open seat were filled with opposition members, there still wouldn’t be enough votes of No Confidence in Wayne LaPierre and his team to displace them.
    I’ve been disappointed in recent years with people, including some friends, who have managed to get themselves on the board and then immediately become very complacent with the status quo or so frustrated with what it looks like on the inside that they give up. Even Pete Brownell, one of the best guys in the Industry who I truly believe sees the need for change, chose to step aside from his second term as President. The most powerful vote that the NRA Member has is in their wallet. Cut Funding. No more annual dues, no more support the Friends of the NRA Banquets, find out who the “anonymous donor” that gave them over $18 Million last year and introduce him to all the amazing State and National Organizations that could have done so much good with that money… etc., etc.. Turn off the tap.

    There is no service that the NRA currently provides our community that isn’t already being offered better and more efficiently by other entities, or wouldn’t quickly be, if they weren’t getting the vast amount of resources our industry and community has to put towards the cause of defending and regaining our Gun Rights. There necessity is an illusion that they have created, we have accepted and that has been, ironically, empowered by the forces aligned against us. It benefits the Anti-Gun Organizations and the pro-control leaning members of the media to have The NRA perceived as the only voice of American Gun Owners… while they actually have less than 10% of us as members using the largest possible number that they can conjure up. Turn off the tap and support the State and National Organizations that are doing the good work. If you support a State Org that is currently backed by the NRA, give them your support directly. Do the research to see what organizations like Firearms Policy Coalition and Second Amendment Foundation are and have been doing to defend and regain our rights in the courts and the public at large.
    We have 3 options for the near future of the NRA:

    1. Tolerate the enrichment of the leadership and their cronies with funds that are supposed to be defending our rights.
    2. A scandal topples the leadership and possibly takes the organization with it.
    3. The current regime passes the torch to a new generation of leaders that are ready for the fights of Today and Tomorrow and will take the organization back to the businesses of truly Educating and Lobbying instead of merely pandering, fear mongering and fundraising.

    Thankfully, fewer and fewer US Gun Owners are willing to go with option number 1. Option 2 is truly a worst case scenario for all of us and our cause that we should want to avoid. The only way I see to bring about any version of option number 3 is going to be to make the first option impossible. Cut the funding and take away the incentives of self-enrichment and influence peddling from the leadership. As resources are diverted to better and more efficient representatives of US Gun Owners, the LaPierre-Ackerman-McQueen stranglehold on the organization will become less tenable (as frustration grows along with more cutbacks and missteps) or at least less interesting to them and they chose to move on.

    It’s a new year. It’s far past time for the needed change inside the NRA. Share this article. Repost it. Even if you don’t agree with me on all or any of these points, share it for the sake of discussion. The gun community is largely torn over this issue right now. There is a lot of nostalgia involved whenever the NRA is discussed… but, we can’t let that blind our community to the problems that exist and the changes that we need.

    -Rob Pincus”

  16. avatar TryMe says:

    After reading comments on forums, etc., I’ve come to the conclusion that the type of hard lined folks that are against the NRA are: 1. Just as close minded as the mob mentality left, and 2. Not representative of the “gun community” as a whole. You aren’t “for guns” or “against guns”. Only a Sith deals in absolutes. It’s much more nuanced. I know, the Constitution, the Constitution!

    Let’s take the examples laid out by the author. You don’t need CCW license. I’m not arguing the legality, but let’s see how this could help. When you get a license, you’re already making an effort to be a responsible gun owner. Most of the required classes go over the various state and federal laws, of carry and engagement, that most people are unaware of. The classes also go over basic safe gun handling. “But I read the internet of guns everyday! I already know that stuff!” You think all gun owners have the same level of knowledge and enthusiasm as the readers here? Let’s keep it real, please.

    As for fully automatic weapons being readily available, maybe someone more knowledgeable on the subject can chime in. I thought the ban was because law enforcement was having a hard time dealing with automatic wielding criminals, and the ban helped.

    The gun folks seem to be a pretty stubborn lot. Just look at the Springfield Armory comments that you still see.

    1. avatar New Continental Army says:

      Criminals continued, and continue, to this day, to have full auto weapons. The ban did little if anything to stop them. Criminals generally choose pistols though, regardless of what they could get otherwise, that’s why they primarily use them.

    2. avatar CZJay says:

      Because of government permission slips I can’t carry a gun outside. Thanks for supporting the infringement on my human and civil rights. Very American of you. Maybe because I am a “minority” it’s okay?

      I thought the NRA is supposed to teach Americans how to keep and bear arms? Why does the government have to do it? Why does the government not teach it in high school if it’s so important for the safety of the public? Why do they get to charge for my right and take it away when they feel like? Why do they get to choose if I can have my human right when I have not committed a crime?

    3. avatar frank speak says:

      back in the eighties…Miami Vice, and all that…automatic weapon ownership was becoming more common…congress was averse to that and moved to “correct’ it…

    4. avatar Raoul Duke says:

      Lol you are quoting a character from a movie as a basis for your argument? How pathetic are you?

      If you want to go by quotes let me give you one by someone who existed in reality and holds far more weight than some f*ggy star wars character.

      “I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice! And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue!” -Barry Goldwater, American patriot

      1. avatar TryMe says:

        Lighten up, it was a joke

  17. avatar Grumpy mid-30's Curmudgeon from MT says:

    At this point, the NRA and their associates/supporters are hostile to gun owners (whether aware of it or not), through their actions (and inactions).

    We are *NOT* on the same side. Who gave the NRA the GD audacity to compromise away *MY* rights? They can do whatever the hell they want with theirs, but mine are staying put FFS.

    The NRA is a Judas goat, and has been since the early days. No real reformations took place there, look at the last 100 years and that’s all you need to know.

    Stop trying to lump all gun hobbyists/aficionados (see Fudds) in with true gun(human)-rights advocates–they are not mutually inclusive. Colion Noir probably doesn’t realize how far the wool has been pulled over his eyes, but he needs to take the friggen red pill already and see the truth. He drank the NRA kool-aid early enough (as did I, at one point) and is still grasping hold to the idealist part leftover from youth. Sooner or later, realism takes over (hopefully), and reason should get louder in the mind than idealism.

    I take offense being lumped in with the likes of the NRA, actually. The NRA is the Neville Chamberlin of this fight; wanting to mollify the out-of-control gun-grabbing dictator–“Peace in our time” (yeah right). The GOA/SAF/et.al are the Winston Churchill. Never give up, fight them for every inch.

    There’s a time to compromise, and on certain principals, there shouldn’t be *ANY*. Think that’s too extreme and myopic of a stance? Think about that the next time some NAMBLA crazy is wanting to “compromise” on the age of consent…some things shouldn’t have a compromise. Also, that’s the wrong word to use! Compromise means we get something in return; when the hell has that EVER happened with our gun rights?

    The NRA has straight hijacked the cause and capitulated 60% of it away. We’ve been infiltrated people, and it’s been going on for over a century.

    The world has lost its damn mind. Grab a bucket of popcorn. Find a spot in the nosebleeds and get comfy. It’s going be an interesting show the next few years.

    1. avatar TryMe says:

      Isn’t Colion Noir an NRA employee? So of course he’ll speak up for them. As for the hysteria, I remember talking with a friend about getting a gun 20 years ago. His reply was, “you better get one while you can.”

      1. avatar CZJay says:

        I should have listened to your friend, but I thought I was safe because the NRA said they would stand and fight.

      2. avatar frank speak says:

        this guy…Noir…is an eloquent spokesman for gun rights…and the fact he is black gives liberals pause…witness bill maher…..we need to see more of him….

    2. avatar Fudds McKenzie says:

      +1

    3. avatar CZJay says:

      NRA members don’t realize they are compromising their principles because a different group has none.

      Compromising and negotiating are two different things. Americans like to say they do not negotiate with terrorists, on the other hand, they like to compromise with domestic enemies.

      I think Americans need to look in the mirror and ask themselves: What is an American and am I truly one?

  18. avatar Fudds McKenzie says:

    Pfft. The gun community is full of controlled opposition, a lot of whom don’t know it, think they’re 100% RKBA but compromise and blow our political capital every chance they get. 4D chess right? Weaseling soft-headed cowards.

    Those with spines need to seperate themselves from the NRA and RNC. Don’t worry about the boomers, fudds and other warm bodies, they will follow if lead. They whine about it but it’s in their nature to toe a line, that’s why they all turned into groupies for Trump and can’t imagine leaving the NRA.

    1. avatar Eli2016 says:

      “Those with spines need to seperate themselves from the NRA and RNC. Don’t worry about the boomers, fudds and other warm bodies, they will follow if lead. They whine about it but it’s in their nature to toe a line, that’s why they all turned into groupies for Trump and can’t imagine leaving the NRA.”

      I really hope you’re right FUDDS because if you alienate the 2 largest rightist voting groups in the country your gun rights AND your guns will be gone in 2 YEARS. Biden will be your pres and you’ll be burying that bump stock in your backyard.

      1. avatar CZJay says:

        I will let you in on a secret: certain young men have had enough and are waiting for that button to be pushed.

        Politicians dare not push it. Law enforcement can’t even handle a 19 year old with an AR. They need at least one more generation before they are ready.

    2. avatar frank speak says:

      no rule against joining and supporting other organizations, as well…we need them all…

  19. avatar Oliver says:

    “But…we all would be remiss to think that in the future battle for semi-automatic rifles (it is coming), that it won’t be the NRA that will be the biggest player in keeping that from happening.”

    Bwahahaha! Given their track record, the NRA will be championing legislation to ban semi-automatics and then after it’s introduced, they’ll claim to be against it so they can beg for money to” fight gun control “. The NRA is a gun control group that pushes for bad laws and then cons uninformed gun owners into paying them to fight the very laws they helped put in place.

    ” We are all on the same side, just to varying degrees.”

    No, we’re not. The NRA and Fudds are not our friends and repeatedly stab us in the back any time we’re foolish enough to trust them. They should be shunned, not befriended.

  20. avatar Charlie Foxtrot says:

    By the way, the public infighting WOULD IMMEDIATELY STOP the moment Wayne LaPierre and Chris Cox stepped down and the size of the NRA Board of Directors would be significantly reduced. But that’s asking for actual accountability and not a circle jerk that maintains the status quo.

    1. avatar Ton E says:

      Agreed if they rreally cared about the majority of their member base they would step down

  21. avatar jakee308 says:

    The important fights will be in the States. Divide and conquer is working for the gun grabbers and with Bloomberg willing to supply the money; they’ve been very successful in a short amount of time of reversing what we all thought would be already settled with Heller and MacDonald. They will never give up.

    And it’s not going to be a fight about particular rifles or pistols although that may happen too. It’s the fight about universal back ground checks that will be where we are betrayed by the pols. It all sounds so simple and reasonable and it is except that a national registry will be required to enforce it. They will leave that out until they are able to show that enforcement isn’t possible without it and then they’ll get THAT passed because they’ve already passed the foundational bill that requires it.

    And it will all sound so reasonable and natural and only gun nuts and crazies would be against common sense. And then BOOM! We’re facing the fundamental choice of being criminals or law abiding citizens knowing that neither choice is very good for anyone.

    Yes. Gun owners have shown they will reject registration bills by states and municipalities and not obey them but it’s another thing to reject a federal law. They do have more resources and they can use the BATF to retrieve the names and addresses of all guns owners that have used a 4143 to buy a gun. And though that’s not everyone or every gun it will definitely put a dent in those who own guns and the guns they own. Plus not registering and telling them to go away when they’re on your doorstep are two very different situations. And don’t think the states won’t cooperate or that your local sheriff won’t or that for some reason Members of our military won’t carry out the lawful orders of their superiors if it comes to that.

    We all know that it takes making a decision to surrender your rights or surrender your life and without a means of being organized to support each other that decision will have to be made by yourself. Alone. With your family to bear the burden of the aftermath.

    That is where the fight will be and it can and probably will be easily won by the soft spoken easy speaking snakes in DC. Sorry to leave it like that but I have no answer on how to stop it other than what we will and can do despite that it will probably fail.

    People allowed Slavery to exist and for laws passed for it. Anyone trying to stop it was arrested and put in jail if not killed.
    People allowed Prohibition to become law and people were arrested and died who didn’t agree with it.
    There are plenty of laws that people have said were wrong and they fought and died and then later those laws were overthrown.

    Laws against firearms probably will pass and the public won’t care and people will be arrested and die and if we’re lucky they’ll be overthrown before we become a dictatorship. The time to have fought vehemently has passed. A long time ago back with the NFA. Once the got that toe hold they could never let go.

    Until such time and people come to their senses; good luck. Peace and the Lord be with you and the United States.

    1. avatar Manse Jolly says:

      …”they can use the BATF to retrieve the names and addresses of all guns owners that have used a 4143 to buy a gun…”

      I think that would be a impossible task.

    2. avatar GluteusMaximus says:

      You are absolutely correct

    3. avatar strych9 says:

      “Gun owners have shown they will reject registration bills by states and municipalities and not obey them but it’s another thing to reject a federal law.”

      Right, because we have nearly 100% compliance rates for federal drug, immigration and tax laws and the government is so competent at enforcement! I mean, like 99.9999999% of people comply with all federal laws and we know that states do so 100% of the time.

    4. avatar frank speak says:

      things are moving much more rapidly these days…trump has to share some of the blame for that…

  22. avatar TryMe says:

    Do you guys really think the NRA was plotting to help ban bump stocks before the Las Vegas shooting so they could rake in the money? The writing was on the wall for bump stocks immediately after that mass shooting. I think the NRA is probably picking their battles here. They know they would lose that fight.

    1. avatar Fudds McKenzie, the Party Fudd says:

      They were plotting to maintain a status quo with infringements and constant wrangling so they could remain relevant and build political and lobbying careers with minimal risk. Las Vegas was a welcome excuse to do as they pleased more overtly than usual and relieve themselves of commitment to campaign promises, at least to gun owners naive enough to take the excuse. CC repricocity and off the shelf suppressors got thrown under the bus too.

      1. avatar TryMe says:

        I think a bunch of stuff was thrown under the bus (like border security and immigration reform) by the GOP led congress because the only fight they were interested in was the big tax cut. Despite enormous opposition, they managed to get that passed. Amazingly enough I remember reading that the NRA lobbied for the corporate tax cut, so maybe you guys are right about them.

        1. avatar Fudds McKenzie says:

          Interesting. I didn’t know that but typical, the NRA has conflated gun rights with other neocon political agenda items.

        2. avatar frank speak says:

          just shows what’s really important to them…unfortunately we seem to be well down the list…

    2. avatar Charlie Foxtrot says:

      You may want to read Marion Hammer’s statement on that subject. But then, the bump stock debacle is just the latest issue in a long list of problems the NRA has.

      Look up how much the NRA spends on lobbying and on law suits. Then tell me how the NRA’s multi-million Dollar executive salaries are justifiable. How about the NRA throwing out the USCCA from the NRA Annual Meeting? How about the NRA Carry Guard insurance, which is outright crap? How about the boutique NRA Carry Guard training? How about blended training? How about fund raising on local issues, filing lawsuits for $150 and then abandoning those lawsuits, while having raised a huge amount of money on them. How about that Wine Club? How about those cooler discounts?

      We are supposed to sing Kum ba yah, right?

      1. avatar TryMe says:

        Interesting.

    3. avatar TomC says:

      They MIGHT have lost a fight against a bump stock ban, but we will never know.

      Not because the NRA failed to fight against the bump stock ban, but because the NRA was where the ban originated.

      I can live with the NRA “compromising” — I’m not happy about it, but I can live with it — BUT what I cannot and will not accept is when the NRA is the first major national voice PROPOSING a ban.

      After Las Vegas, yes, there were a few strident calls to ban bump stocks coming from the same people who want to ban everything. The ATF correctly pointed out that bump stocks were legal and that banning them would require congressional action. A few bills were being drafted but none had even been filed, largely because the Democrats didn’t think they could pass in a solidly “Republican” congress. Then the NRA jumped into it and told Trump that the NRA supported banning bump stocks. At that point, with the blessing of the NRA behind him, Trump told the ATF to find a way to ban bump stocks regardless of existing law.

      Without the NRA we would NOT have a bump stock ban — and we would not have the far more dangerous precedent that the ATF can unilaterally ban legal products without any basis in law.

      1. avatar frank speak says:

        pushing for a bill banning bump stocks in congress would have forced a lot of politicos to commit themselves…something they always like to avoid…going this route avoided that…but it may come back to bite trump in the butt because it allowed the dems to challenge the validity of his AG…don’t expect this to be resolved any time soon…

        1. avatar Charlie Foxtrot says:

          I think you got a few things right, but also a few things confused. We are challenging the validity of the Acting A.G. Matthew Whitaker, see http://WhitakerCase.com – FPC v. Acting A.G. Matthew Whitaker, et al.

    4. avatar Roger Pemberton says:

      There is only one battle to pick and that is no infringement on the 2nd Amendment. Anything else and they just as well be batting for the other side. Picking battles and not realizing that there is only one battle is what causes infighting. I won’t support the NRA for this very reason. I have no problem telling anyone that I think the NRA is a bunch of traitors. The 2nd amendment doesn’t state for hunting and sporting purposes but that’s what the NRA would have everyone believe. I would rather fight off the horde at my front door than support the NRA. As far as I’m concerned the NRA is a two faced enemy to the cause.

    5. avatar PMinFl says:

      Would you rather loose AR15s or just some cheap gimmick acessory?

      1. avatar Michael Stilinovich says:

        Not. One. More. Inch.

      2. avatar frank speak says:

        think that is where the line is going to be drawn…and it may well wind up in the hands of the SCOTUS…and it will wrap around the legality of all semi-automatic firearms, as opposed to just some of them…

      3. avatar Charlie Foxtrot says:

        That is a false choice! Neither would be the correct answer, but gun owners have been convinced by the NRA that giving up one is somehow saving the other. That’s simply not how this works! That’s not how any of this works!

        By the way, that “cheap gimmick accessory” did cost US gun owners about a total of $102,470,977. That’s the conservative estimate of the ATF. The ATF also estimates costs of forgone future production and sales to be $213,031,753. Why is anyone OK with the federal government outlawing ~$103,000,000 in private property and a ~$213,000,000 economy? Is that the freedom’s safest place the NRA keeps talking about?

  23. avatar TomC says:

    Good article, and I agree with SOME of Elliot’s conclusions.

    Public infighting among RKBA supporters is harmful…

    Our infighting encourages Democrats who oppose RKBA — but that isn’t really a big deal because they are already firmly committed and aren’t going to change.

    Where the appearance of our infighting is a real problem is that it will sway moderate Democrats (yes, there really are some) and RINOs by giving them the (hopefully false) impression that we aren’t able to resist effectively without the “leadership” of the NRA.

    Where I cannot agree with Elliot is the notion that we must continue to support the NRA which for fifty years has consistently failed to support us. Does the NRA have to choose the ghost of Neville Chamberlain as CEO before gun owners recognize that the NRA is not a pro-RKBA organization. The NRA was not formed to defend gun rights and it has never really adopted that role. The NRA’s sole interest in appearing pro-RKBA is entirely financial. Many (probably most) NRA members today are interested in defending our rights, but the NRA is simply not the organization to accomplish this. Even among the NRA members who do support RKBA, most are politically inactive and happy to just write the NRA a check one or more times a year so they can feel they have done their part.

    We must recognize that EVERY piece of anti-gun legislation passed by Congress in a bit over the last 50 years did so with the endorsement of the NRA – in fact the NRA has openly opposed the right to bear arms since at least 1934, advocating for federal gun control and federal licensing. The laws that the NRA has actively supported include the National Firearms Act (1934), the Federal Firearms Act (1938), the Gun Control Act (1968) and the notoriously misnamed Firearm Owners Protection Act (1986). There have been numerous other federal laws where the NRA nominally opposed the original bills but then endorsed the so-called “compromise” versions that only passed once the NRA agreed to support them, including the Federal Assault Weapons Ban (1994).

    Bottom line, Elliot: The NRA might be the largest association of gun owners in the United States, but as a national organization it has NEVER been a supporter or defender of our rights. There is no point in saying you hope the NRA will undergo some sort of magical reformation because the 147 year history of the NRA says that just ain’t gonna happen.

    We do need to present a united front — and to do that we need to choose an organization to lead that united front, an organization that understands that their purpose is to defend our rights, not simply the rights of Fudds.

    1. avatar CZJay says:

      You should only lend support to those that fight. Do not ask for a leader, you are a man. Make people earn your assistance just like they should earn your vote. You make the decisions… You have the power of the checkbook, the vote and the gun.

    2. avatar frank speak says:

      yes, the NRA comes off as a moderate group…frequently open to “compromise” and getting us “the best deal they can”…this means they usually find themselves backpedaling when, perhaps…they could have taken a more forceful stance…if that is your view, then feel free to join and support the more activist groups that are out there…

  24. avatar Jackass Jim says:

    What the Fork is wrong with you idiots?!

    If the NRA did not exist do you think things would be better?

    1. avatar Charlie Foxtrot says:

      The NRA would be better with different leadership and with accountability, but that doesn’t seem to be an option for you, as it is either today’s corrupt NRA or nothing. That is a false dilemma!

    2. avatar frank speak says:

      their (NRA) political clout has been useful…but, of late…even trump has worked to diminish that…leaving us with an uncertain future…that republican/russian connection seems to have damaged their influence somewhat….

    3. avatar Raoul Duke says:

      Yes Jackass it is called the GOA. The only no compromise lobby that gun owners should belong to.

  25. avatar Amie Freeda Goh says:

    In the past, when my progressive daughter reTweeted something from Mothers Demand or the like, I made a donation to NRA-ILA.
    I will no longer do that.
    Going forward, when she posts such I will donate to GOA, SAF, as well as NRA-ILA.
    I’m not planning on leaving her anything.
    We (gun owners, Americans, and, whether they know it or not, citizens of the world) need a multi-pronged defense against authoritarian, Marxist, pro-confiscationists.
    P.S. When a Facebook friend (a girlfriend from when Gerald Ford was President) reposted something from Moms Demand I messaged her this “In honor of your repost of the Bloomberg-funded Mom’s Demand, I gave $100 to the NRA-ILA.” Haven’t seen a similar repost since then.
    P.P.S. I apologize for producing a Marxist.

    1. avatar frank speak says:

      I know the feeling…one of mine is a college professor…and, of late…we seem to be going round and round a bit..

  26. avatar TomC says:

    “I have never believed in the general practice of carrying weapons. I seldom carry one. … I do not believe in the general promiscuous toting of guns. I think it should be sharply restricted and only under licenses.”
    – Congressional Testimony of Karl Frederick, NRA President. (1934)

    1. avatar frank speak says:

      …and that was the commonly accepted view in many states…up until the sixties…when everything began to change because of the widespread civil disturbances…pistols back then were nowhere near as common as they are today…did the world change?…or did we?

  27. avatar Nanashi says:

    “We are all on the same side,”

    No we are no. We need to dispel our self of the notion the NRA has ever been pro-gun. Wayne LaPierre has stated he does not support civilian ownership of the most common firearms in the world, and outright lied to the membership to pass law banning them. Wayne LaPierre was caught red-handed embezzling money from the NRA and ignored a direct order to stop, but escaped dismissal by having enough of the board in his pocket.

    The NRA has NEVER been pro-gun. If the NRA was pro-gun the Democrats would do what they do with every other organization they profess to hate and make personal attacks on the leaders, yet so far despite Democrats claiming to step up their hate Wayne LaPierre and Chris Cox remain mud free.

    The NRA are, at best, useful idiots the Democrats love having in power as easy dupes. More likely they are outright controlled. They love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom. We ask not for their counsels or arms. May the chains sit lightly upon LaPierre and Cox, and may posterity forget they were our countrymen!

    1. avatar frank speak says:

      yeah,..I would prefer to see them walking around in jeans and flannel shirts at their conventions…rather than the $500 suits they usually sport…

      1. avatar HoundDogDave says:

        I think you missed a digit on that price for their suits. Your friendly neighborhood realtor and car salesman wear $500 suits.

  28. avatar Underdog says:

    Great article and excellent debate.

    I too am underwhelmed with the NRA and realize that despite being an Endowment member I have no voice or influence in the organization.

    Reminds me of local, state, and federal government.

    I’ve recently joined the GOA and will be sending what I use to send to the NRA there.

    More importantly I personally am going to engage my elected representatives, at all levels, as much as possible.

    The only reason we need orgs like the NRA is because our politicians have successfully excluded us from the “fight.

    Time to force OUR way into the ring.

  29. avatar Eli2016 says:

    “Those with spines need to seperate themselves from the NRA and RNC. Don’t worry about the boomers, fudds and other warm bodies, they will follow if lead. They whine about it but it’s in their nature to toe a line, that’s why they all turned into groupies for Trump and can’t imagine leaving the NRA.”

    I hope you POTG’s are right. Because if you alienate a membership as large and as powerful as the NRA, your gun rights AND YOUR GUNS will be gone in 2 years. Biden will be your pres and you’ll be burying your cache somewhere in Montana (maybe). Furthermore, if you think you’re going to win the battle against the Bloomberg’s and Tim Cook’s with a “grass-roots” word of mouth effort, you’re living in the wrong century.

    1. avatar frank speak says:

      yeah, but a little constructive criticism can’t hurt…ollie seems more committed to increasing membership [and revenue]…than opting for a more aggressive stance..I know lawsuits cost money…but it doesn’t seem to be slowing down some of these other groups….

      1. avatar Charlie Foxtrot says:

        The NRA spends about 1% of its revenue on lawsuits. Think about that for a moment.

        The appointment of Oliver North was a move to reel in more clueless Republican voters with chest thumping public statements. The NRA’s President is a position with exactly zero power within the NRA. Pete Brownell, who actually wanted to reform the NRA, left that position highly disappointed.

  30. avatar Sgt of Marines says:

    Hmmm! Let me see, go with Colin Noir’s defense of 2A or Lea Speed6????? I’m gonna go with Colin every day and twice on Sunday!!!!! He fights the good fight!

    1. avatar Ton E says:

      I like Noir I haven’t been read in entirely to what’s happening between him and Leaspeed6.

    2. avatar Ed G says:

      His name is Colion Noir.

      1. avatar frank speak says:

        like what i’ve seen from him so far….and we haven’t seen enough of him on national media….

  31. avatar UpInArms says:

    ” Divide and conquer is working for the gun grabbers and with Bloomberg willing to supply the money ”

    Which really makes me wonder sometimes how much of the anti-NRA rhetoric on this blog might actually be funded by Bloomberg and his cronies.

    1. avatar Charlie Foxtrot says:

      Whatever excuse works for you! No one prevents you from donating to the NRA. Wayne LaPierre needs to fund his next African Safari and Chris Cox needs to buy his next full auto for his safe. That’s where your donations go to! The NRA’s 990 tax forms are publicly available, so you can find out yourself.

    2. avatar Fudds McKenzie says:

      I’m touched that pro-RKBA, anti-NRA rhetoric such as mine troubles you enough to sprout a conspiracy theory. Believe it if you want, I’m flattered.

    3. avatar Eli2016 says:

      Good point. Hard to believe people like FUDDS are real… Seems he’s the guy pushing for gun control via his divisive rhetoric.

    4. avatar UpInArms says:

      Well, well… seems I really struck a nerve here. Whaddaya know.

      1. avatar Ed G says:

        I don’t think you struck a nerve. I think we just see you as either a typical anti troll or drunk on the NRA KoolAid.

    5. avatar Charlie Foxtrot says:

      The NRA’s 990 tax forms for your inspection. See for yourself how much money Wayne LaPierre, Chris Cox and Marion Hammer made using your donations. See how little money was spent on lobbying and how even less money was spent on law suits. Alternatively, you can make up some conspiracy theory and believe in that.

      https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/530116130
      https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/521710886
      https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/261277941
      https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/521136665

      1. avatar MeRp says:

        The listed 990s are only for the NRA non-profits, but doesn’t include things like the NRA-ILA or the NRA-PVF that make political actions that disallow the nonprofit status. Lobbying and political support/opposition for candidates and/or initiatives fall under those.

        But you’re right about not much money going towards lawsuits; that falls under the Civil Defense Fund, which looks like it turns around about $600-$700 thousand per years, around $400 thousand of that spent on lawsuits.

        Of course I’m not sure how much of that figure being low is because they don’t pursue much and how much may be because some of the work may be pro-bono, given that it is, ostensibly, a mostly volunteer organization.

    6. avatar frank speak says:

      always a possibility…they’re a pretty insidious group…so take some of these comments with a grain of salt…keep up your membership…but feel free to join some of these other groups, as well…we need them all….

  32. avatar rt66paul says:

    The main problem with gun owners is that they do not support socially liberal causes(those that allow people more freedom, even when they are not living up to the 10 commandments). The ACLU should be on the side of the gun owner, but is not. We all need to support freedom for people in the U.S., even when we disagree with their lifestyle.

    We all have our book of rules, we learned it growing up. Some learned through their church, others learned it from other places. The whole purpose of the Constitution and Bill of Rights was/is to make basic rules that everyone could follow and live in society, not to enforce religion’s rules on the masses. The divisions in Europe due to religion caused many problems, and the writers of our Constitution were well aware of them, they did not want law run by any church. They set basic law(mostly based on Common Law) as an example.

    This is not a Republican vs Democrat fight, it is a civil rights fight. Do not, for one second, believe that either party will fight for your civil rights. The whole purpose of politics is control over the masses and getting as much money out of them they can. We can never rest, we can never trust someone else to do our job. Eternal vigilance is needed.

    1. avatar Fudds McKenzie says:

      But the RKBA is meaningless if we can’t be safe from the scourge of people with different organs using public restrooms.

      1. avatar frank speak says:

        never been in a restroom when a bunch of women choose to invade?….it happens more than you think…usually for physiological reasons at large group affairs…more funny than anything….

        1. avatar Fudds McKenzie says:

          I’m worried one will come in the men’s room when I’m taking a pee and attack me with their fearsome genetalia. It’s horrible, I almost whizzed myself in Target instead of use their libertine latrines!

    2. avatar Elaine D. says:

      Best comment ever, RT66Paul.

    3. avatar Ed G says:

      Hey if you sleep well at night being ok with some big hairy dude dressing as women saying he identifies as a chick and goes in a female bathroom and attacks a women, you’re disturbing. Oh and also making up new biological rules that there is a “no gender” gender… Total lunacy

      1. avatar Esoteric Inanity says:

        Pray tell Ed G, what currently stops “some big hairy dude” dressed as a woman from going “in a female bathroom“ and attacking a woman? Must be the nonexistent bathroom laws that are so potent as to obviate the thought of assault and rape from one’s mind.

        After all, separate bathrooms for men and women have existed since God made Adam. Going into a woman’s bathroom will turn men into gays, and everyone knows that all gays are rapists and pedophiles right?

        Inb4 some poor bastard with diarrhea is arrested for using the women’s bathroom due to the men’s being closed for cleaning. Poor stupid fool ought to have just shit his pants instead.

        1. avatar frank speak says:

          always used the women’s lounge when I worked the night shift…generally cleaner in there…and there’s usually a couch!

      2. avatar Charlie Foxtrot says:

        … and what does that have to do with 2nd Amendment rights or the NRA? Lumping together all conservative and alt-right ideologies with the fight for 2nd Amendment rights will leave you with a small group of couch potatoes that are OFWG screaming “MOLON LABE” while registering their “assault rifles” with the government. You practically guarantee to be in the minority! Leave social and unrelated political issues out of the fight for 2nd Amendment rights!

  33. avatar CZJay says:

    We thought we could get along with the Iraqis and Afghanis enough to let them into our military bases. Then they attacked us from within. Once we left they started killing all their “comrades” and formed ISIS.

    The enemy could be sleeping and fighting next to you one day, on another day they could be killing you when your guard is down. They were never your ally. They just wanted to get close to you, gain power and win without much resistance. I won’t sleep in the same room with such people.

    Why would I ever arm and train the enemy when they plan to kill me?

  34. avatar possum says:

    Paper Tiger

  35. avatar Enuf says:

    Glocks are bad for America.

    Imported guns are bad for America .

    The NRA trying to expand to other countries, getting money from America’s enemies, promoting anything anti-gun is all bad for America.

    1. avatar Mikial says:

      You’re an idiot.

      1. avatar frank speak says:

        appears they got used a bit in the last election….

        1. avatar Enuf says:

          Yes, it does look like the NRA got royally played by the Russians. What bothers me is how easy it was to get NRA bigwigs to go to Russia on the pretext of helping a pro-gun movement.

          It’s bad enough they were suckered, but the NRA’s mandate is about American shooting sport and gun rights, not traveling the world advocating elsewhere on American membership dollars.

      2. avatar Enuf says:

        Austria is the single largest source of imported guns into the USA. Over 1.2 million in 2017, mostly handguns. That represents manufacturing jobs, AMERICAN MANUFACTURING JOBS LOST OVERSEAS!

        Of all the jobs we failed to hold onto in this country why in the hell are we sending jobs we are so very good at, gun making, to foreigners?

        ATF data on it, see page 10:
        https://www.atf.gov/resource-center/docs/undefined/firearmscommercestatisticalupdate20185087-24-18pdf/download

        If you love your country prove it with your dollars. At every possible opportunity to do so,

        BUY AMERICAN!

        1. avatar Charlie Foxtrot says:

          I agree, buy American-made Glocks!

        2. avatar Enuf says:

          You cannot buy an “American Made Glock”. You can only buy a Glock partially made in the USA. Glock maintains tight control on parts, materials and machines. To the point that all materials and manufacturing machinery is shipped from Austria, nothing is bought in the USA.

          http://smallarmssolutions.com/home/glock-austria-vs-glock-usa-made-pistols

          Glock’s goal is to make only enough of the gun in America to get away with marking it “USA”. This appeals to some USA buyers, but mostly is to be able to export to other countries having friendlier import rules for MADE IN USA than MADE IN AUSTRIA.

        3. avatar Charlie Foxtrot says:

          Well, you simply didn’t get that one, I guess. While Glock is a brand, it also represents the concept of polymer-framed striker-fired pistols. Many polymer-framed striker-fired pistols are made in the USA, following the lead of Glock and sometimes even producing better guns. The S&W M&P, for example, is an American-made Glock, so are a few others. Buy an American-made Glock!

          By the way, these jobs were exported because US manufacturers were complacent, ignoring innovation by the competition instead of trying to beat it. Right now, Glock has been ignoring innovation by US competition (see single stack 9s and the recent Glock models that don’t make much sense), but US manufacturers have continued to ignore innovation to some respect (see Sig P365).

        4. avatar Sam I Am says:

          “…why in the hell are we sending jobs we are so very good at, gun making, to foreigners?”

          Uuuhhhmmm, like, because some of what foreigners make isbetter, cheaper, better and cheaper…like a lot of stuff that was once manufactured here?

          After WW2, the foreign policy thinking was that if America could rebuild nations, and provide the means to have thriving economies like America, the world would be peaceful, and wars over resources would be a thing of the past. Overlooked was the fact that rebuilding economies that would have lower production costs would threaten the US manufacturing base.

  36. avatar FightRedFlagLaws.com says:

    So, will the NRA help us fighting against “Red Flag” laws, or do we have to continue to fight against the NRA on this issue as well? At this point, the FPC is opposing “Red Flag” laws (https://FightRedFlagLaws.com), while the NRA is supporting them (https://youtu.be/7sNiklO506A).

    1. avatar Sam I Am says:

      “So, will the NRA help us fighting against “Red Flag” laws,…”

      NRA has a cozy relationship with LEOs. Gotta think NRA will be compelled to endorse expanded police action. They just may be able to get away with keeping silent. But, NRA will not oppose red flag laws, and risk the ire of a favored class.

    2. avatar frank speak says:

      this fight is vital…the potential for abuse is enormous!…

  37. avatar Mikial says:

    This is a little bigger than just 1911 fans vs Glock fans.

    We all have to quit hating each other and join ranks or the antis are going to take us out a piece at a time.

    I like all guns. I’m a memeber of the NRA, GOA, NAGR and my state 2nd Amendment rights organizations. I don’t hate Fudds (although they piss me off at times), I don’t hate anyone who likes a type or brand of gun I don’t carry.

    And most of all., I will stand side-by-side with all of you to fight for our Constitutional Right top keep and bear arms.

    How about the rest of you? Time to grow up and close ranks.

    1. avatar CZJay says:

      It’s hard to stand side-by-side with NRA members when they don’t get off the couch often. I guess you might stand side-by-side one of them at the mail box when they are sending money to the NRA so they can fight the good fight for them.

    2. avatar frank speak says:

      big rally in Pittsburgh on monday…show up and bring your guns!….

      1. avatar Charlie Foxtrot says:

        Any link to that with more information? That there is some rally about something somewhere in Pittsburgh at some point in time on Monday isn’t very useful. https://www.pagunblog.com doesn’t even have information on this supposed rally.

        This is exactly what is wrong with the current pro 2A movement. Most pro 2A rallies are small, because people simply do not know about them or if they do, the lead time is often rather too short to organize a large crowd.

        Organizing pro 2A rallies is actually something that should be the main business of the NRA, not a Wine Club or cooler discounts.

        1. avatar Chris T in KY says:

          My dream would be if the NRA would coordinate and support with $$$, gun rights rallies in the slave states. CA, NJ, NY, MD, WA, OR & IL.
          At least I can dream. I’m not happy with the NRA.

  38. avatar possum says:

    LMAO ,,, yank the cord

  39. avatar MIO says:

    It’s not “infighting” if they aren’t fighting for the same thing.

  40. avatar God says:

    This is what we need the NRA has gone antigun!

    How NRA’s true believers converted a marksmanship group into a mighty gun lobby!

    In gun lore it’s known as the Revolt at Cincinnati. On May 21, 1977, and into the morning of May 22, a rump caucus of REAL gun rights Peeps took over the annual meeting of the National Rifle Association.

    The rebels wore orange-blaze hunting caps. They spoke on walkie-talkies as they worked the floor of the sweltering convention hall. They suspected that the NRA leaders had turned off the air-conditioning in hopes that the rabble-rousers would lose enthusiasm.

    The Old Guard was caught by surprise. The NRA officers sat up front, on a dais, observing their demise. The organization, about a century old already, was thoroughly mainstream and bipartisan, focusing on hunting, conservation and marksmanship. The rebels saw the NRA leaders as elites who lacked the heart and conviction to fight against gun-control legislation.

    Carter and his supporters rebelled, placing him in charge. It was at this point that the NRA truly became the gun lobby. (Much more on all of this in the books Under Fire by Osha Gray Davidson and Gunfight by Adam Winkler.)

  41. avatar Aleric says:

    WRONG, allowing people who CLAIM to support gun owners then help Liberals pass new gun laws are SELL OUTS. We need them like we need RINOs in the Conservative movement. Purges need to be done to make it better, this BS is how the Establishment Rinos in the Congress in 1996 gave away our party while people like you claimed we cant make waves.

    1. avatar Sam I Am says:

      Some years ago, I joined NRA at the minimum level. Received a nice little membership card, and information that I could choose a welcoming gift. I chose the NRA range bag/small duffel. A month or so later, I received a second card, with a different number. And an invitation to choose a welcoming gift. I chose the pocket knife. Then I received endless funding requests. Eventually, I collected about 30 pieces of fund raising materials, put them in a large envelop, and mailed it all back, along with instructions to end my membership. Kept the duffel and knife (actually got a free NRA cap at a gun show). It all seemed like a fair trade.

      Since getting those neat little prizes, have found the NRA not providing a proper value proposition (i.e. their sales message is not working).

  42. avatar Mike H in WA says:

    My issue isn’t how “pure” this gun group or that gun group is. My issue with the NRA is how it handles itself. They were worthless in the fight against I-1639 here in WA. There were no commercials or social media videos explaining in Colion Noir-esque style why it was a terrible law. No examples of how this aspect or that aspect was inherently flawed. Nothing that would have made the suburban mom question how required training every five years and an extended waiting period in order to purchase a Ruger 10/22 was going lower crime. All we got were a bunch of memes with bumper sticker slogans screaming “Don’t Criminalize Self-Defense!” “Law Enforcement Opposes It!” blah blah blah. It was a lazy, tone-deaf, and half-assed effort… all while begging for my hard earned dollars to support this half-assery.

    The only semi-convincing arguments I was seeing were put together by Bob in his basement with Windows Paint… and they were chalk full of spelling and punctuation errors. While I appreciate the effort by such keyboard warriors, it presents an image problem… if you can’t be bothered to do a simple spell-check on your very basic meme, how do I know you actually took the time to research the law?

    It should have been the NRA leading such efforts to actually convince people… instead it feels like they just used it as a months long fundraiser, with Dana Loesch more concerned with giving out catchy zingers and soundbites than winning non-believers to her side. I’m cool with organizations taking specific positions I may disagree with if we’re mostly on the same side. I’m not cool with some organization half-assing it, then acting like they’re some great warrior fighting for me.

    I don’t care how “pure” the NRA is or isn’t… their leadership needs to get out of their little bubble and pull their heads out of the sand. Until they do, SAF will get my money.

    1. avatar Charlie Foxtrot says:

      The NRA’s fight against I-1639 wasn’t worthless. The NRA made over $100,000 in donations and spend them on themselves, such as to create a Web site for $20,000 to ask for more donations. Welcome to the club of disappointed NRA members, where the NRA raised money on a state issue and didn’t actually fight it effectively.

  43. avatar strych9 says:

    Some topics turn TTAG into a miniature version of 4Chan or maybe even The Reddit. This is one of those topics.

    Amusing but not particularly productive.

    1. avatar Sora says:

      No productive for someone who’s not productive in the first place.
      Join all the memberships. The inflation of members scare the Democrats and RINOs. They know these members PAY to be members and actually vote.
      If you’re 5 years NRA member, you get to vote out and IN for NRA board.
      THAT’S how you REFORM NRA.
      Ballot will come with your requested “Free” NRA publication.
      You might say “I can get digital and save some trees!”
      Scr3w your tree hugging. Cut out the address, leave the thing lying around at libraries, barber shops, auto dealers, etc. as you walk in and leave. Keep a stash in your car for that.

      1. avatar frank speak says:

        I like to sneak mine into doctors offices…stashing them in the stacks of those year-old magazines!….

      2. avatar strych9 says:

        Well, that touched a nerve.

  44. avatar Bob999 says:

    I read through the comments. TTAG has become a bunch of armchair rock throwers. They hate the NRA because they will not die on the bump stock range toy hill, because they aren’t pure. Then I see trolls pretending to be gun guys pushing gun guys to end alliances, and the TTAG gun guys taking the bait. This simple mindedness is complete horse s$&t and it is going to destroy the 2nd Amendment. So, sit in your armchairs with your brew throwing your rocks at us unwashed, impure 2nd amendment supporters. You know, we who are actually fighting this war. When you are done throwing rocks, maybe, just maybe you might consider getting in the fight.

    1. avatar Eli2016 says:

      “They hate the NRA because they will not die on the bump stock range toy hill, because they aren’t pure.”

      So true. It would seem some here actually believe that they can beat back the Bloomberg’s and Soro’s supporters with sticks and stones. They think that martyring themselves on the “altar of freedom” will send the left running to the shores of Malibu. I laugh when I read the words of a Fudds Mckenzie but deep down I fear that his kind will likely destroy the 2nd Amendment. You do not win wars without making alliances (even with those you disagree with). You do not win a war by savaging your own. The left understands this perfectly. Unfortunately we have those who dearly hold to the adage, “It is better to die on your feet than live on your knees.” But hey, at least they tried… LMAO.

      1. avatar Charlie Foxtrot says:

        You certainly do win wars by donating to the NRA to fund Wayne LaPierre’s next African safari and Cris Cox’s machine gun collection. LOL.

        The NRA does beat the Bloomberg’s and Soro’s by implementing their gun control first. LOL. Next up is Rubio’s federal legislation on red flag laws, which the NRA stated they will support.

        Winning, so much winning! LOL

  45. avatar Rusty Chains says:

    Going to re up with GOA shortly, maybe even go life member with them. My NRA membership comes due in November of this year, they have about six months to impress me, and it isn’t looking good! I will find a different .org to replace NRA if they don’t get their act together within that time. Yes, I will be voting for Adam Kraut and no one else for NRA board to try to get reform started there, but until Wayne and Chris are gone reform seems unlikely.

  46. avatar RetroG says:

    I’ve known for over 15 years that the NRA is NOT a 2nd Amendment rights organization after I was told to not attend a protest against a anti-gun bill, because “it wouldn’t leave the Republicans in the Illinois Congress any place to retreat to”. Their words.

    I give money to whom I like, and it is non-NRA organizations. I stay a 5 year member so as to vote against their recommended board members. I am now seriously rethinking this stance based on the info I have gained from this thread.

  47. avatar Chris T in KY says:

    Who Is leaspeed6? What proof does anyone have this person is pro 2A? I know they have a very large following. And so did Hugo Chávez! Stop giving this IG model attention. I trust Noir. I’ve Followed him on You Tube long before he was working for the NRA.

    This Liberal gun owner, if that is who they are, is not a ally of conservative gun owners. Liberal gun owners have never been supporters of black gun ownership. Liberals have always supported racist gun control laws. Liberals have publicly supported the Mulford Act. They own it.

    The reference to Philando Castile is just a way to fight against a black persons right to carry a weapon. He was stopped because he was driving while intoxicated. He was not stopped because of his skin color. Liberals are just in denial.

    White Liberal gun owners have always been uncomfortable with law abiding blacks with guns. Historically its republican conservatives who have supported negro gun rights. Its big city Liberals who are passing gun control laws in major cities and creating “gun free zones” in public housing projects.

    1. avatar Charlie Foxtrot says:

      leaspeed6 is pro 2A just by virtue of challenging Colion Noir on his stupid bump stock ban post. Colion Noir, which is not his real name either, is a creation of NRA’s advertisement agency, Ackerman McQueen. Colion seems to be busy advertising boutique products for the gun owner who has too much money, while the 2A community has been wrestling with the NRA for years to beat some reason into this organization.

      You bring up a number of points and seem to be rather ill-informed.

      Splitting the 2A community into liberals and conservatives is pretty much all what the NRA has been doing for the past years. Dividing the community is counterproductive! 2A activists have been trying for years to get the NRA to be more inclusive. We got the Angry Dana videos in return.

      The Mulford Act was a creation of Ronald Reagan and supported by the NRA, for God’s sake. Please learn some history!

      Colion was the ONLY NRA representative who spoke out SUPPORTING Philando Castile! Dana Loesch made a snarky comment about Philando Castile should have had NRA Carry Guard training. Despicable! Philando Castile was stopped because he was driving while black. He was murdered because Officer Jeronimo Yanez was afraid of his own shadow. The NRA continues to back murderous police officers. Skin color or racism has nothing to do with that. It’s all about that thin blue line gang.

      Historically, Republicans and Democrats have supported gun control alike. Both want to use the government as an “instrument of good against evil”. President Trump has still not abolished federal gun-free zones. Democrats are not the only ones who want them.

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