Officer Killed in Thousand Oaks Bar Shooting Died From Friendly Fire

Sgt Ron Helus Thousand Oaks Friendly Fire

courtesy KEAN radio

When an ex-Marine dressed in black shot his way into a Thousand Oaks, California bar last month and opened fire on the crowd, the first officers to arrive were Ventura County Sgt. Ron Helus and a California Highway Patrolman. They didn’t wait outside and set up a perimeter, Parkland-style. Instead, they went into the Borderline Bar and Grill to confront the shooter.

Helus never made it out. He was hit five times during the gunfight that took place, but as the investigation has now revealed, the shot that killed him was fired by the Highway Patrol officer.

That Helus was killed by friendly fire emerged for the first time at a somber news conference Friday, exactly one month since 28-year-old Ian David Long attacked country-music lovers at the Borderline Bar and Grill in the Los Angeles suburb of Thousand Oaks, killing 12 and wounding 22 others. …

Officials didn’t have much else to update about the investigation Friday, nothing more on the motive or the exact timeline of events – just the news that broke all their hearts, most of all that of the patrolman, who learned of the terrible mistake for the first time Thursday.

“I delivered the message to him … He had no clue it was coming,” said L.D. Maples, chief of the California Highway Patrol’s coastal division. “It surprised all of us. He’s devastated.”

The patrolman was only identified as a nine-year veteran of the department. He is on leave.

While it may sound callous, tragedies like this are bound to happen in a chaotic, tense situations when officers are maneuvering, trying to identify the threat (the shooter had used smoke grenades) and exchanging gunfire. The shot that killed Helus pierced his heart.

Helus was wearing a bulletproof vest when he was shot, but officials did not say where the bullet entered his body. His wounds from (the shooter’s) handgun were serious, but potentially survivable, including two that hit Helus on the edge of his vest, said Christopher Young, the county’s chief medical examiner.

RIP Sgt. Helus.

 

 

comments

  1. avatar Alexander says:

    Did it have anything to do with +P+ rounds that police use? Did it go through the vest?

    1. avatar HP says:

      Probably not, if it was level IIIA soft armor, it will still stop rounds like those. My understanding is departments most of the time try to outfit officers with armor that will stop rounds from their own firearms. My guess is the bullet hit him near the armpit.

      1. avatar Viejo Torro says:

        Good bet

      2. avatar Hannibal says:

        They had patrol rifles. Not surprising if it went through.

    2. avatar Jonathan-Houston says:

      “but officials did not say where the bullet entered his body. ”

      If they didn’t say where it entered, then how can the question of whether it penetrated his vest be answered here?

      1. avatar FedUp says:

        Which is probably why they won’t say where it entered.

      2. avatar Mark N. says:

        He was shot with an AR15.

    3. avatar MB says:

      Police don’t use +P+ rounds, they use off the shelf high quality self defense ammo. I know of no pistols are rated for +P+ if any are, and there are very few revolvers that are +P+ rated. Do you know any officers carrying revolvers. I would guess any officer who does use +P+ has gone rogue, and is holding a tricking time bomb in his hand. But many SWAT teams carry FNH FiveSeven’s which with the right ammo, will zip right thru a Level3A vest.

      1. avatar The Stig says:

        9mm Winchester Ranger T-series, a very good “Law Enforcement Only” self-defense round comes in a 127gr +P+ version. Product RA9TA. Don’t know if that was being used or not, but to say that there aren’t +P+ rounds out there for LE is incorrect.

        1. avatar MB says:

          I didn’t say the ammo was not out there, I said it’s unlikely police use it. I said there no pistols used by LE rated for +P+ (to my knowledge), and few revolvers that can handle a regular diet of +P+ without grenading,

        2. avatar LarryinTX says:

          I don’t see a possibility that any company offers a “LE only” loading which LE does not purchase. That assertion is just silly.

      2. avatar New Continental Army says:

        “Has gone rogue.”

        Sounds like the beginning of a new lethal weapon movie, where an old crazed anti semetic Mel Gibson dishes out street justice with new +p+ .40 rounds.

        1. avatar Kenneth says:

          +P+ 6.5 creedmore! Now it could shoot all the way around the world and hit you in the back of your own head! Hoooaaa. A way to keep the crdmr fanboy numbers under control.

        2. avatar Broke_It says:

          I could totally see old Mel diving thru the air dual wielding +p+ spewing hand cannons while screaming “sugar tits.”

      3. avatar Jeff in CO says:

        Just to help clarify a few things, even the +P+ 127 grain Ranger load can be stopped by a NIJ certified level II vest as well as a level IIIA. On a level II, it may indent the ballistic clay more than 44mm (which would be considered a fail), but I doubt it since it is tested with a 158 grain JSP .357 Magnum round traveling at 1,430 FPS.

        Please remember, level IIIA vests are certified to stop 125 grain .357 Sig rounds tested at 1,470 FPS. There are additional tests under the NIJ 0101.06 standards to also simulate degradation of performance as the fibers break down due to heat and humidity. You can read more about it in the actual NIJ book (https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/223054.pdf)

        Law enforcement went away from the Weaver stance in the ‘90’s because it was exposing the weakest point of body armor to the bad guy. This is the point in the sides where your front and rear soft panels come together (they don’t overlap, so you really don’t have any protection where they touch). We want the front trauma plate (the strongest point) to be facing the threat, hence one of the reasons for the shift to the isosceles stance.

        The only reason body armor typically fails is due to degradation from heat and humidity. Second Chance dealt with this back in the early 2000’s with the Zylon fiber failure, where two officers lost their lives from total pass through. The new Japanese “miracle fiber” degraded significantly quicker than first thought. This is also why soft body armor has a 5-year life expectancy and is supposed to be replaced at that point with normal use.

        Now after writing all of this, I just discovered that it looks like the CHP Officer was using his AR-15, but I’ll post this all anyway since it took a while doing it from my phone.)

        This is obviously all speculation since we don’t have the final reports. Unless his vest was past due for replacement (very unlikely) he was probably hit where the panels come together in the side or under the armpit where there is no protection (or now as discovered, a rifle round that a vest offers no protection from). It is unfortunate and sad. My hat goes off to both this Sgt as well as the CHP officer that went in and straight to the gunfire, despite this tragic revelation. The only person that should be held accountable and blamed for Helus’ death is the scumbag active killer that day.

        1. avatar CZJay says:

          I disagree. I think the patrolman is responsible for the 5.56 round that pierced the deputy’s chest. The gunman is responsible for the other 5. I don’t think it’s murder, but the patrolman did mess up. The victim can’t decide how or if the patrolman should be punished.

          Now we have to question what happened and what should be done. Law enforcement are likely to simply brush it off as an accident not negligence and choose to not improve themselves. These days we can’t expect government to accept responsibility for their actions like honorable men used to.

          Why are CCW holders always told “you are responsible for every bullet that exits your gun” if that doesn’t apply to law enforcement? If I have a badge on I can accidentally kill anyone then simply go “whoops, my bad,” but if I am the average man I can find myself in a court room?

          I don’t know what the Sgt. would have wanted, but I know justice is on his list. We don’t know what that would look like in this situation.

      4. avatar HP says:

        There are police agencies out there that use +P+ rounds, in particular Speer Gold Dot 115 grain 9mm +P+. The Glock 17 can handle them.

        1. avatar MB says:

          Wrong. Glock does not support the use of +P+ ammo in any of it’s weapons, SAAMI only. But go ahead and quality with them, it’s your hand not mine. Just remember that will change point of impact vs practice ammo loaded to SAAMI standard.

        2. avatar HP says:

          Ok, if you say so.

      5. avatar Hannibal says:

        Uh, I was issued +P HP ammo for years.

    4. avatar CZJay says:

      They say he was shot once in the chest and heart with an AR-15 fired from a California Highway Patrolman. They refused to answer whether it was from the front or the back, but they did say chest. It sounds like he may have been retreating when wrongly identified as the gunman and killed.

      1. avatar Alexander says:

        The sequence would be of interest. He was wounded several times by the perp, but killed through the heart by the cop. Through the heart means instantly, so the perp must have shot him prior to the cop. Yet the cop still considered a wounded and most likely collapsing body a threat, in addition to the uniform. As I understand, the explanation is that there was smoke and confusion. Which leads to yet another question – under those circumstances, who else was shot by the two cops?

        1. avatar LarryinTX says:

          That does sound like a good question!

      2. avatar Hannibal says:

        He could have just as easily not been identified at all- i.e. got shot, went to retreat, accidentally walked into the line of fire while the other officer was shooting at the suspect. Tunnel vision is very difficult to train out.

        1. avatar CZJay says:

          It sounds like he was the first one in. It was said the bullet that killed him was stuck in his heart and removed during surgery. So, the indicators are he was shot from the front. If he was shot in the back that would make sense.

        2. avatar Alexander says:

          It would still be interesting to know if the CHP made only one grave error in his target selection, or did anyone else also receive a round from him? I fully understand the issue of a very confusing situation, panic and smoke, and grateful that both risked their lives by going in (as opposed to Orlando, the schools, and others). The point is not to pass the blame, but to see if the error was purely accidental, or is there an underlying problem with training or attitude (or something else) that needs to be addressed.

    5. avatar Sora says:

      Only +P+ that can punch soft armor is solid copper or harder with at least 10 mm or more powerful rounds.
      Still won’t punch IIIA hard armor steel plates, etc.
      Smoke grenade really did him in, I guess. It’s indoor so there’s no wind to blow it out. Might even have water sprinkler or fire alarms going off to disorient everyone.

    6. avatar Guest says:

      He was a former Marine, not ex Marine.

      1. avatar BDubs says:

        Nah, he lost that honor when he murdered a load of innocent people that also lead the the death of the Deputy.

        Fuck him.

  2. avatar Ruthless Objectivity says:

    It’s so odd that many governmental officials – those in New Jersey come immediately to mind – believe that “only police have enough training and experience to own or operate a firearm or ‘large capacity magazine’”, or whatever other nugatory twaddle they claim “for the greater good”.

    1. avatar Kenneth says:

      Not at all odd. Just know that Statism is a religion. Then all their wacked out insanity makes perfect sense. Just more religious nutjobs. Last I checked there were(with a “B”) billions of ’em.

  3. avatar daveinwyo says:

    I have said this before; Cops are NOT good examples of gun control. Most Fifes can’t hit s..t. Most are “spray and pray”. NY? Chicago? 27 rounds down range, 2 bystanders hit, perp got away. That’s I mag and a reload. How about NGs in classrooms during cop day show and tell? Anecdote; While going through reserve deputy training I saw a lot of very scary stuff. On the 10 yard line most couldn’t hit the target w/both hands. One guy had a .38 colt police revolver he got from his dad. On the “quick draw” exercise his cylinder fell out of his gun. Another sent 15 rounds down range and missed w/all. The Sgt. in charge discharged his gun in to the overhead while showing “proper gun handling”. Jackson county, Or, 1987.

    1. avatar Endlesspath says:

      Yes, you are right in most cases. Training is obviously deficient, along with either no co-training between agencies or inconsistent SOP’s in approaching these kinds of scenarios with a likelihood of friendly fire.
      Here is the most recent event with a local LEA being shot by some other LEA while approaching a armed robbery suspect. The incident involved various LEA agencies from a city, a county, U.S. Marshall’s & the F.B.I. The suspect never fired a round, and a Sheriff’s deputy was permanently paralyzed. Responsible agency for the friendly fire was never announced publicly:
      https://www.officer.com/tactical/tactical-medical/news/21022203/scott-county-kentucky-sheriffs-deputy-jamie-morales-undergoes-surgery-after-being-shot-in-the-back-by-fugitive

  4. avatar former water walker says:

    The po-leece do a helluva job don’t they?!?😄😎😏

    1. avatar Pmac says:

      You think you can do it better? Pin on a badge, get in a patrol car and go get you some! No? Then shut the fuck up!

      1. avatar Jonathan-Houston says:

        When did that become the rule? All of a sudden, unless someone personally can achieve superior performance in something, they’re disqualified from rendering an opinion on another’s abilities? By that logic, ever judge, referee, coach, and scout in every sport ought to sit down and shut up. Likewise, every senior instructor at ever police academy needs to just let those cadets go about their business, unless he personally can show them how to perform their required skills by personal demonstration.

        Pinning on a badge is one thing, but what about those cases where it’s impossible for everyone to accept your challenge? No more criticizing presidents. After all, it’s impossible for EVERYONE with a complaint to go get elected and show us how it’s done. Same with clients and patients of lawyers and doctors. No more claims of malpractice, unless everyone is willing to go to law or med school, right now, and show us how it’s done.

        Your comment is so completely asinine as to embarrass the word asinine itself for its association with you. How about YOU sit down and shut up, since you obviously cannot do any better at commenting?

        1. avatar Freebird says:

          Cop worship is like Trump worship , they can do no wrong according to some people , even when trampling on our sacred Constitution , after swearing to uphold it.

          ” Take guns first , have Due Process …. Later ”
          ” Bump stocks will be GONE ”

          ” We’re going to protect your Second Amendment folks ”
          Don ‘ the snake ‘ Trump

        2. avatar Pmac says:

          Just tired of hearing a lot of people bad mouth law enforcement when they know nothing about what it’s actually like to do the job. Medical malpractice? Anything else outside of my area of knowledge or expertise? I’ll consult (and pay) someone who knows what they’re talking about. What I won’t do is is talk out of my ass just because I have a bias against a particular group of people. A lot of the gun culture don’t like cops. I don’t understand why. Most cops I know either really like firearms (and citizens who like them), or are indifferent to them (and the citizens who own them). Just something you run across when you’re doing your job. Although, I have to admit, they’re are some who resent anyone being armed except themselves. Of course, they’re generally assholes in every other way too. What my grandfather called “badge heavy.” Anyway, cops are just like everyone else. Some are great at there jobs. Others, not so much. Anyway, please don’t use the analogy of politician again. Everyone knows any asswipe and his brother could do it better than them.

          Seriously though, if you think you can do it better, pin on a badge, get in a patrol car and go get you some. We can use you out there.

        3. avatar binder says:

          “they’re generally assholes in every other way too”
          Here is the problem, they have the law on their side and they have “good” cops on their side. I bet if right 5% of the cops were fired, we would not have the cop hate we see.

        4. avatar New Continental Army says:

          “ Likewise, every senior instructor at ever police academy needs to just let those cadets go about their business, unless he personally can show them how to perform their required skills by personal demonstration.“

          Um what!?!? Yes they should be able to! Are you mad? You want someone instructing new police without being able to do those skills themselves???? Do you want drill instructors in the military to not need to know how to disassemble an AR too!!?!?

        5. avatar LarryinTX says:

          Bull. I don’t need to be any kind of expert to hand each candidate 200 rounds of ammo each day and watch them fire all of them before going home. Culminating in 4 separate qualifying scores in one day while running a couple miles between them, before you ever touch an actual badge, and again every few years thereafter. It does not take an expert to demand expertise, as long as the subject is applying for a paying job.

        6. avatar Hannibal says:

          There’s no rule but when you are criticizing people doing something it’s a perfectly valid question to ask “can you do better?” If the answer is “yes” (as it often is here with keyboard warriors outnumbering the real ones) it’s also fair to ask “well, why don’t you?”

          If you’re talking about people who willingly enter a gunfight and then ridicule them for screwing up under the most immense pressure you can ask of a human (i.e. immediate life or death consequences with every decision) I have to wonder how much experience you have with those situations.

      2. avatar former water walker says:

        Low IQ cop are we? Or a PTSD boy!?I pay taxes doofus…that gives me a say. Thanks for your service😄

        1. avatar California Richard says:

          I doubt he’s either. He just hasn’t grown thick enough skin to accept that some people just hate cops as a default position. Most people are neutral, but willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. However, there are just as many default haters as there are default “cops do no wrong” fan boys. Most people seem calcified in their default positions; some feel compelled to troll those on the fringes.

        2. avatar New Continental Army says:

          Off topic, but, Just keep in mind those taxes you’re paying now aren’t shit compared to what you will pay if the DNC takes all three branches in 2020.

        3. avatar Pmac says:

          Never took an IQ test. However, when I took my ASVAB test prior to enlisting in the military I maxed it out. Much to my recruiters consternation I insisted on an MOS of airborne infantry. Anyway, back to your suggestion of a low IQ; among other interests I enjoy history (particularly American, but any in general.) Seen the King Tut exhibition twice. Once in the New Orleans Museum of Art and again in the Franklin Institute of Science in Philadelphia. Also enjoyed the American Museum of Natural History in NYC for three days. Gotta love Roosevelt for that one. Like to read too. Especially American authors. My favorites are Faulkner, Hemmingway and Stienbeck. After the army I got a very high grade on my paper on A Farewell To Arms. What do you like to read? Of course, one one of my favorite books is Unintended Consequences by John Ross and anything by Tom Clancy and Stephen Hunter. Do we share any interests beyond firearms? Because your knowledge of law enforcement is obviously nil.

        4. avatar California Richard says:

          Word of advice Pmac: stay away from the “my dog is bigger than your dog” d*ck meassuring contests. All that stuff you said about yourself is great, but it give people other avenues to attack you and you atent going to win any fans by broadcasting your resume.
          Stick to your arguments. Cite case/statutory law, facts, statistics, etc to bolster your argument. And if you have an opinion, don’t blow your own horn. To us POTG you end up sounding like this guy: https://youtu.be/vfONckOPyaI

      3. avatar daveinwyo says:

        Sorry I pressed your wa-wa button. Cops a people just like the rest of us. Some will seek to improve their abelites on their own time. MOST are 9-5 seat fillers. Good intentions are not a substitute for good training. And yes, some departments are better than others. Big city cops are the worst of the lot.

      4. avatar Red in CO says:

        You worthless coward, why don’t you try taking some goddamn responsibility for your own safety? The only reason we “need” most cops in the first place is because assholes like you scream “save me!” rather than “let me save myself!” It’s circumar logic at its finest, we need cops to protect us because cops prevent us from protecting ourselves so therefore we need cops to protect us. So kindly gargle razor blades, faggot

        1. avatar daveinwyo says:

          Red in Co. You talkin to me? If you are, then, again, I’m sorry I pushed your wa-wa button. But too bad. If you are a cop then you need a psyc elval. If you are just Jo Blow then ESAD. We all are entitled to our own opinion. Mine is based on experience and time in service to my community. What is you opinion based on?

        2. avatar LarryinTX says:

          Not to intrude in an irrational pissing contest, but Red, I have to say I could not figure out who or what you were addressing, and I went *WAY* upthread trying to get a clue. A hint would have helped.

        3. avatar strych9 says:

          “So kindly gargle razor blades….”

          Hot damn that’s harsh! Consider this phrase stolen.

      5. avatar frank speak says:

        ….shit happens….

  5. avatar Jonathan-Houston says:

    After this incident and the several others involving black individuals this year, may we finally dispense with the phony outrage and eye rolling whenever the antis argue against concealed carrying because “responding police won’t know who the bad guy is” and similar claims? It does happen, sometimes. Make the counterargument on that basis, or else stick to the original “it’s my right” line. Either way, at least acknowledge these people’s argument. When you deny something that is factual, you diminish your own credibility while doing nothing to persuade your opponent. Now, how often does friendly fire happen? I don’t know. Research it and discuss that. Was this more a matter of an errant round, rather than a case of mistaken identity, in which case the victim being armed had not bearing on the outcome? I don’t that, either, but that’s a possible counterargument.

    The point is that one of the reasons that arguments go on so long and become so heated, is that usually both sides are at least partly right. That spread may be .1% to 99.9% in the case of antis vs. the pro-2A, but there’s still that .1% and you shouldn’t ignore it. Face it, address it, and turn it around and make it work for you.

    1. avatar CZJay says:

      I wouldn’t be surprised if the cop that shot him freaked out once he saw an AR-15, completely ignoring the khaki colored uniform and fired a single round before realizing what he did.

      I believe the FBI already knows what happened and are withholding the truth (for now).

  6. avatar RGP says:

    +1 for teamwork there….

    1. avatar CZJay says:

      California Highway Patrol punched his ticket.

  7. avatar Red in CO says:

    Yeah, and the CHP guy is in paid vacation and he’ll likely get plenty of sympathy from other cops. Oh, and I’m sure he “feels terrible” about it too. What if he hadn’t been a cop but a private citizen who accidentally shot a blue uniform? No knock 2am arrest warrant ending in a hail of gunfire because “suspect appeared to be reaching for what could have been a gun”

  8. avatar GluteusMaximus says:

    I continue to see these cops spray and pray. As an 18yr old in the Army I had better fire discipline. Maybe these cops need to go through basic training. I was an MP and God help you if you drew your weapon without cause. Why are these cops so scared all the time? I was prepared to go in the line of fire without question. Maybe I wouldn’t do that today

    1. avatar MB says:

      Cops are concerned about being killed by the wack jobs they run into every day. Unlike you when you were 18 and in the military, most of them have families they want to go home and see after their shift. Respect for police is a 2 way street, respect the officer(s) and most likely they will respect you. Don’t do any crime and you will not meet one on unpleasant circumstances. If you carry a gun, just be especially careful with your movements and body language in any encounter with an LEO, believe me, the last thing he or she wants to do is shoot you.

      1. avatar CZJay says:

        Almost no cop has ever said they wanted to shoot someone. That could get them a 1st degree murder charge. CCW holders also refrain from making such statements. That doesn’t mean no one wants to shoot people, they just can’t/won’t admit it.

      2. avatar LarryinTX says:

        Maybe we should have cop departments modeled after the structure of the military, particularly the “up or out” concept of constant learning and qualifying, or separating. Like the military, more of an introductory job than a lifetime, possibly including the equivalent of a “GI bill” for educational benefits after certain duration meeting certain standards. I’m not sure that today’s system is working very well.
        I feel very sorry for the officer who fired the fatal shot. Say whatever you want otherwise, but we all know he did not intend to do that, and we also know he was not hiding behind a barricade, he was deliberately putting his own life at risk.

        1. avatar CZJay says:

          Or we can have less cops overall and more constitutional carry. Look for quality over quantity and let people defend themselves.

          I don’t want America to turn into Mexico or Brazil: the military patrols the streets and the civilians are disarmed.

          The more rely on cops the more gun control we will have. It is a form of socialism after all. People become dependent on the system.

          When more people take responsibility for themselves cops will find themselves in less dangerous situations because by the time they get there it’s most likely over. They will be more like a detective than an enforcer.

        2. avatar Ed Schrade says:

          Maybe there is a lack of good tactile training. Also, I will bet that the lighting in there was very dark.

      3. avatar strych9 says:

        “Don’t do any crime and you will not meet one on unpleasant circumstances.”

        Um… wow. That’s one of the silliest things I’ve heard in quite a while.

        1. avatar MB says:

          So you recommend a confrontation because you are a criminal? Wow, now that is stupid.

  9. avatar Vicrattlehead says:

    Wow, a cop died in a chaotic environment because he and his colleagues dove into a VERY dangerous situation in an to attempt to stop a lunatic from slaughtering more defenseless people and all you idiots can do is critisize how inept cops are and how they can’t hit the broadside of a barn.

    In a situation with tons of frantic people, smoke gernades and bullets flying the odds of friendly fire are EXTREMELY high. How about showing a little respect for the dead and at least give them credit for diving head-first into danger instead of cowering outside, afraid to engage.
    It’s sad and unfortunate that this officer had to pay the ultimate price but it’s better to die with your boots on then to live as a coward.

    My condolences to the family and I hope they can take solace in the fact that he died a hero and not a cowardly slime like some certain Fla cops.

    1. avatar canuck_in_ca says:

      Well said.

    2. avatar CZJay says:

      We haven’t actually been informed about what exactly happened. I assume that is because a cop killed another cop, which changes the investigation to something different.

    3. avatar LazrBeam says:

      A general truism is: Friendly fire…….isn’t.

  10. avatar tdiinva says:

    I prefer to be vindicated without loss of life but once again the real world demonstrates that the typical TTAG range cowboy is FOS. When you enter a chaotic situation that requires a snap decision bad things can and will happen. It isn’t incompetence or racism. If you can’t accept this reality limit your armed response to that 3,3,3 encounter.

  11. avatar James A. "Jim" Farmer says:

    Medford, Oregon Mail Tribune: Friday, June 9th, 2009/Letters To The Editor

    “Police nightmare in N.Y.: shooting of fellow officer” (Mail Tribune, May 31) elicits scrutiny. This article alluded to friendly fire between law enforcement officers where a fellow police officer in plain clothes is accidentally shot by responding officers.

    This happens often. According to Jeffery R. Snyder’s “A Nation of Cowards” (Public Interest Quarterly: Fall 1993) the error rate for police shootings is 11 percent, or more than five times as high versus armed civilians who employ deadly force in self-defense shootings.

    In fact, armed citizens kill 2,000 to 3,000 violent criminals and felons annually, three times the number killed by police. In certain metro regions, especially Chicago, (run by anti-gun Mayor Daley’s corrupt Cook County Democratic machine), the rate is three times higher. Also, a nationwide study by Don Kates, constitutional lawyer and criminologist, found that only 2 percent of civilian shootings involved an innocent person mistakenly identified as a criminal.

    Source: Will “Gun Control” Make You Safer, via http://www.jpfo.org. JPFO’s latest outstanding video, “No Guns For Negroes” at this same site is well worth viewing. It exposes the discriminatory racist roots of gun control in America. — James A. Farmer, Ashland

    Now a resident of Merrill, Oregon (Klamath County)

  12. avatar canuck_in_ca says:

    The CHP officer was firing a rifle I believe, which explains how the bullet went through the vest.

    The CHP officer didn’t kill the sergeant. The maniac did.

    1. avatar CZJay says:

      He would have survived and retired like he planned, but a 5.56 round to the chest chose otherwise.

    2. avatar JohnnyL says:

      100% Agree…

  13. avatar I have questions says:

    After reading several comments, may I suggest that y’all always read at least the linked article, if not several other sources. Journalists get it wrong all the time. Police spokesmen do, too. Even the original reports are often incorrect.
    The linked article, as well as the LA Times and several other reports, said the CHP officer had a rifle. (The linked article said both had rifles. None of the other reports said that.)
    So this speculation about +P+ or the deputy being hit in the side is, no offense, ignorant.

    This beg several questions:
    Did the CHP officer kill (or hit) anyone else?
    How many times did the officer and the deputy fire?
    Did the deputy hit or kill anyone else?

    1. avatar CZJay says:

      They said at this time it doesn’t appear the cops shot any victims and they didn’t shoot the shooter. They said the Sgt. was shot 6 times, 5 of those were non life threatening, the sixth shot was to the heart from a cop’s AR-15. They said the Sgt. was ambushed by the shooter as soon as he entered, they exchanged gunfire, the Sgt. missed, he was shot 5 times by the shooter, then was shot by a CHP.

      They refused to answer questions such as: from what direction the Sgt. was shot, if any of the 8 cops in the bar at the time were armed. They simply stated the chest and heart and no cop inside the bar at the time returned fire instead they escaped and helped others.

      So it’s possible that some of those 8 cops did have a gun and refused to engage. It’s also possible the Sgt. was shot while facing the CHP as he retreated because he was already hit 5 times and the suspect was in a advantageous position.

  14. avatar Texican says:

    At least they had the guts to deal with the criminal! If I were a police officer I don’t think I’d trust too many of my fellow officers to where I’d get ahead of their muzzle in a shootout.

  15. avatar Sam I Am says:

    Seems to me the thrust of the article (and the other two bad shoots last month) underscores the problem of intervening in a gun fight. We often like to point out that the “fear” expressed by the anti-gunners (who fear being a shot bystander) is irrational. We have responded that there is little evidence that mis-identifications are made with deadly results. Now we have three incidents in two (?) months. Even if the 2% error rate for armed citizens is correct, that number does somewhat justify the fear factor regarding armed civilians (somehow anti-gunners ignore the higher miss rate of LE). POTG just cannot claim that the fear of being mis-identified and shot is bogus. We can do the stats and logic, but we can’t just ignore the actual facts.

    1. avatar CZJay says:

      The facts are: law enforcement needs to be restructured and the standards changed. The courts have said the police don’t really have to help you anyway and a lot of law enforcement just want to go home with a check not a bullet wound.

      We have to accept reality and make a change. Less armed government workers, more armed Americans, no more government 2A free zones, better parenting and a proper mental health system.

  16. avatar IdahoPete says:

    Murphy’s Rules of Combat (A comprehensive list obtained from various sources):
    #4. Friendly fire isn’t.

    This kind of stuff happens more often than we would like to hear, and has happened since we first started throwing rocks at each other. Don’t criticize the CHP guy unless you have been in a similar firefight in the dark.

  17. avatar Hannibal says:

    A gunfight is a dangerous thing to do. Most people wisely avoid them.

    That said, if you sign up for it, don’t worry- everyone who is too scared to put their life on the line will happily nitpick your every decision as if they were there doing it instead of in a comfy armchair drinking a beer and watching wheel of fortune.

  18. avatar james says:

    Took a carbine class last month, our instructor is Deputy and has that Winchester T ammo, not for sale to the public.

    1. avatar JD says:

      It’s for sale to the public. I’ve used it for years and like it. I think the For sale to LEO only is just a sales pitch.
      https://www.sportsmansoutdoorsuperstore.com/category.cfm/sportsman/9mm-luger-law-enforcement-ammunition-for-sale

  19. avatar George Venable says:

    It may even be possible that the dead officer may have mistaken the CHP member for the bad guy and presented toward him. No matter what, both showed courage and the family of the fallen officer and the CHP guy will both feel the pain forever. Of course we all wish for perfect outcomes but they do not exist. 100% of the fault lies with the instigator – none of the following events occurred without his evil act.

  20. avatar Christ T in KY says:

    The officer did stop the killing. He did what the cowards in Broward County FL refused to do. His actions forced the murderer to shoot himself, instead of killing more people. Rest in peace sir. And god bless his family.

    My friend a deputy in Sacramento county CA never was without his issued sidearm when he was off duty. I don’t understand how rules could be written to prevent any LEO from carrying their gun off duty???

  21. avatar Bruce Clark says:

    Only in California…

    1. avatar S.Crock says:

      There is not one thing about this story that could be considered endemic to California.

  22. avatar Vlad Tepes says:

    Perhaps our untrained cops should go for training in France. I remember about a year or so ago the French Police stormed a building and not one hostage was killed nor was any French Police killed only the terrorist was. As a side note an illegal Black Muslim immigrant who was an employee of the store hid some of the hostages (who were Jews) in a walk in freezer at great risk to himself. Several days after the incident he was immediately awarded Frances highest honor and given citizenship.

  23. avatar Ralph says:

    It’s good to know that cops don’t just shoot hostages, bystanders and innocent civilians.

  24. avatar possum says:

    Charles Whitman,Lee Harvey Oswald, this guy, that guy. Let’s put the blame where it belongs, on the Marina Corps, ,for creating these killers then turning them loose on friendly civilians and Presidents.

    1. avatar Sam I Am says:

      Oy. That’s harsh.

  25. avatar Wheel Gun Guy says:

    With 14 million concealed carriers in the USA and growing ….there is now a legitimate concern that we as concealed carriers can become the victims of friendly-fire whether it is from responding uniformed police, plain clothed on or off-duty officers and yes even other concealed carrying good guys if we should find ourselves in a chaotic situation. The law enforcement community and military have grappled with this problem of friendly fire for years…..World War II, Korea and Viet Nam wars saw anywhere from 2-16 percent of US military personnel killed or wounded by friendly fire…..so I reckon the bigger question is how we as concealed carriers can avoid being hit by friendly fire from any source or hitting another ‘friendly” by mistake…..that should be the focal point of this discussion as that is the gist of this article…..stay safe out there.

    1. avatar Rico says:

      Withdrawing if/when you can is the best solution. If you can hit a perp confidently during a shooting then go for it, but if you can’t retreat without drawing your weapon. CCW holders have no uniforms and we can easily be mistaken for a perp. If you can escape with your loved ones that’s usually the best decision. Saving someone is great, but if you’re dead your family is screwed. You can try to be a hero and save others, but that increases your risk of mistaken ID. If you do get involved immediately holster your weapon when the threat is neautralized.

      1. avatar Rico says:

        Sorry neutralized* and I meant if you can’t hit the bad guy and aren’t under fire get out rather than engaging. I’ve seen several videos of CCW holders running in and getting shot by an accomplice they didn’t know was there let alone a LEO in the “fog of war”. The gun is to protect yourself and family. If others choose not to carry there isn’t much we can do for them. It may sound selfish or cowardly, but when you’ve got a family they come first.

    2. avatar Sam I Am says:

      “With 14 million concealed carriers in the USA and growing ….there is now a legitimate concern that we as concealed carriers can become the victims of friendly-fire ”

      “Friendly fire” involving armed citizens always was a consideration. The fact is, citizen DGUs in crowds is near unicorn level.

      Rule 1 of a gunfight: don’t be there

  26. avatar Alfonso Alfredo Rodriguez says:

    Two different agencies and two different types of training, so no standard fire and maneuver coordination (more than likely).

  27. avatar Alfonso Alfredo Rodriguez says:

    Two different agencies and two different types of training, so more than likely no standard fire and maneuver coordination when facing fire in close quarters,.

  28. avatar js says:

    I have family members in LE and they are the first to say the only thing that scares them more than a bad guy running around with a gun are other LEO’s running around with guns. They say there are way too many officers that will shoot first and fast, too many officers seem to be afraid of what they do. Yes they are coming home at night but so is the civilian they run across.

  29. avatar Phillip Golden says:

    He is no less a Hero for giving his life for us.

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