Unintentional Discharges: Teach New Shooters The Right Way

Range at Austin Safety Training Unintentional Negligent Discharge

There are generally two kinds of gun owners: those who have fired a shot unintentionally and those who will. Another way to look at it is, play with fire long enough and you’ll eventually get burned.

The first thing we have to understand is the definition of an unintentional discharge. The way I explain it to students is an unintentional discharge is any time the gun fires as a result of failing to follow basic safety rules. Either through carelessness, lack of attention or deliberate indifference, the gun fired while it was in your possession.

Modern semi-automatic firearms don’t “go off” by themselves. They can only be fired through human intervention. As gun owners, students and practitioners of the art, it’s incumbent on us to be safe with our firearms. If something is predictable, then it’s preventable.

You have to be sure

If we were to study a number of unintentional discharges, where would we find that things broke down? The majority unintentional discharges I’ve reviewed pointed to a single issue; the operator of the firearm believed the gun was unloaded.

That’s the major issue. Then didn’t check. Whether through operator error or deliberate indifference, their actions lead to their gun firing when they didn’t intend it to.

Safety rules and procedures didn’t materialize out of thin air. They came from the hard lessons we learn in life. It’s when we fail to apply these lessons that we move from accidental to negligence. It’s one thing to discharge the firearm accidentally due to ignorance and another matter entirely when you know better.

The Golden Rule

Many who are reading this blog have been around firearms for a long time. You no doubt know the four rules of firearm safety:

  1. Every gun is always loaded.
  2. Never point a firearm at anything you aren’t willing to destroy.
  3. Don’t put your finger on the trigger until your sights are on your target and you’re ready to fire.
  4. Know your target and what’s beyond it.

I’m confident many would agree that the most important safety rule is number two. Over the years I have come to appreciate that rule the most. While adherence to all four rules is critical, the priority needs to be safe muzzle direction at all times. Even if the other rules are broken, safe muzzle direction ensures the worst won’t happen even if a firearm is unintentionally discharged.

Teaching new students a litany of rules they’ve never heard of before can set them up for failure. For one thing, they aren’t going to remember all of them right away. Second, even if they do remember, they still have to apply the knowledge or change their behavior.

Drilling then on the importance of muzzle control and keeping their firearm pointed down range is relatively simple and easy to learn. It should be the first thing any new shooter is taught.

Keep it Simple

For this reason, we begin students on three safety rules to start. Keep the gun pointed in a safe direction so that even if you fail at the others, the risk of property or personal injury is minimized.

Keep your finger on the home position until ready you’re to fire. If you aren’t sure where your finger belongs at any time you’re holding a gun, always go home — high along the frame and away from the trigger.

We also have new students keep their guns unloaded until they’re ready to fire.

Once you get these three rules embedded into your students you can conduct live fire training with an acceptable level of safety. For our new students, these are the bare minimum and we work hard to instill them from the get-go.

Set the Example

As an instructor it’s incumbent upon us to ensure the safest training environment possible. An unintentional discharge, whether accidental or through negligence, is the gravest of sins.

As an instructor, the first thing you have to acknowledge is how a discharge could could happen to you. Don’t think for a moment you’re exempt.

Prior to a demonstration, whether live or dry fire practice, I decide where I’d want a bullet that’s fired to end up and adjust accordingly. I don’t even like pointing a blue gun in an “unsafe” direction. It sets a bad precedent that could be repeated with a functional firearm.

When I’m performing a demonstration I don’t ask a fellow instructor or student to confirm the condition of my firearm. I have to set the example that I can be trusted to safely unload and handle my gun. Most students won’t have access to a second party to check that their gun is unloaded when they’re on their own. We all need to develop the skills to complete this fundamental task on our own, then maintain that standard and hold others accountable.

Guns are dangerous tools. It’s for this reason that we rely on them for defensive use. But there’s no reason we can’t mitigate the risk where possible through education and training. Learn the four rules and practicing them every time you’re around a firearm.

Jeff Gonzales is a former US. Navy SEAL and preeminent weapons and tactics instructor. He brings his Naval Special Warfare mindset, operational success and lessons learned unapologetically to the world at large. He is the Director of Training at The Range at Austin. Learn more about his passion and what he does at therangeuastin.com.

comments

  1. avatar Ken Forbus says:

    i will have to move muzzle control to the number and me Safety rule. If the muzzle is safe it doesn’t matter how it goes bang.

    1. avatar uncommon_sense says:

      Exactly.

      I recently pulled a semi-auto firearm out of storage for dry fire practice. Before my dry-fire practice, I looked to see if the magazine well was empty. Then I cycled the action one time to remove any potential cartridges in the chamber. So far, so good. Then I pointed that firearm IN A SAFE DIRECTION and pulled the trigger. And to my surprise, BANG!

      As it turns out, the magazine color, texture, and profile matched the magazine well in such a way that you could not see the magazine in the magazine well under poor lighting, which was the ambient condition when I set about dry-fire practice.

      After I stopped flogging myself for failing to see the magazine in the magazine well in the poor lighting conditions, I grabbed a gold paint pen and colored the bottom of all of its magazines to ensure that they were EASILY visible even in poor lighting conditions.

      I have also updated my procedure to include sticking my finger in the magazine well and cycling the action three times before dry-fire practice.

      1. avatar FedUp says:

        You don’t rack the slide to clear it, you open the slide so that you can inspect the action and be sure it’s clear.

        1. avatar Buffer Spring says:

          Author writes
          “There are generally two kinds of gun owners: those who have fired a shot unintentionally and those who will.“

          Which is exactly what scares those who work in schools. It’s one thing to say there are two kinds of drivers, those who have a fender bender and those who will, compared to saying there are two kinds of drivers, those who’ve driven drunk the wrong way down an interstate highway and those who will.

          And guns do go off by themselves. Just ask honor guard, sig and of course Remington.

        2. avatar Bloving says:

          @Buffer… that is why I’ll say to customers, “A gun that is IN PROPER WORKING CONDITION will not fire on its own”.
          🤠

        3. avatar uncommon_sense says:

          Buffer Spring,

          Concerns about unintentional discharges in schools are a total and complete ZERO risk as long as people who carry in schools will NEVER “fondle” or handle their handguns outside of a legitimate, bona fide self-defense event.

          And before someone screeches, “We cannot trust armed parents, staff, and teachers to not fondle their handguns!”, I simply say that if we can trust them to keep their handguns in their cars, we can trust them to NOT fondle their handguns. Likewise, if we cannot trust them to NOT fondle their handguns, we cannot trust them to keep their handguns in their cars.

    2. avatar GeorgiaBob says:

      Back up to the mid-1980s. My dad (WWII vet, lifetime gun owner, weapons instructor, recently retired Deputy Sheriff) pulled his “off duty” .38 snub nosed, round butt revolver out of his IWB holster while explaining “firearm safety” to some friends. The S&W .38 revolver discharged sending a round out the window (clean hole, didn’t crack surrounding glass) in a truly safe direction (nothing but water for miles). He was holding the small weapon by the grip only, had never touched the trigger guard, let alone the trigger, and the hammer was NOT cocked!

      We never figured out exactly how that supposed ND happened. Two different gunsmiths subsequently attested that the weapon was in excellent condition and neither could make it discharge a round without 5.3 pounds of trigger pull! Everyone in the room saw him pull the weapon, without touching the trigger, and all agreed that the hammer was not cocked. The only guess anyone (one of the gunsmiths) had was a bad primer on the round somehow “self ignited” when the weapon was moved – but that was just a wild guess.

      I agree ND (or some other kind of discharge) can happen. A firearm is a mechanical system using a kinetic impact to initiate a chemical reaction that activates chemical propellants pushing a solid object (or objects) down a round tube. There is room in that process for failure. Usually the failure is “operator,” but sometimes the mechanics, or the chemicals, can fail.

      Keep a firearm pointed in a safe direction and an unintentional discharge hurts only ears and ego!

      1. avatar TomC says:

        Sure. And under Brownian Motion where all the molecules in the air move about a random, it is POSSIBLE that all the oxygen molecules might just happen to move to the other side of the room and cause you to die of hypoxia — but in the real world it ain’t gonna happen.

        So one random round of ammunition just happened to “go off” all by itself, with no outside action — and THAT ONE round of ammunition just happened to be the round that was in the chamber that was aligned with the barrel of his revolver — and this astronomically unlikely event just happened to occur at the instant that he pulled the revolver out of the holster — all without the hammer having been cocked and all without anyone touching the trigger.

        You’d better keep an eye on those oxygen molecules, because them all moving to the other side of the room is a LOT more likely than that story.

  2. avatar JasonM says:

    There are generally two kinds of gun owners: those who have fired a shot unintentionally and those who will.

    I challenge this assertion. With proper practice and general not-being-an-idiot-ness, one can get the probability of an ND down so low, that the cumulative probability over a human lifespan is still quite low.

    1. avatar Big mo says:

      This is a pretty solid assertion, if you believe that this will one day happen to you, then you will be protected if ever does (by safe muzzle direction).

      I was on a recent hunt in Africa, borrowed a rifle, and due to a defect, the rifle fired when I closed the bolt, hand nowhere near the trigger. Due to safe muzzle direction, nobody got hurt.

      1. avatar JasonM says:

        Your argument makes no sense.
        Mechanical failures can lead to ADs.
        Therefore gun safety is good.
        Therefore virtually every gun owner will have an AD or ND.

        I wasn’t challenging the idea that gun safety is a good thing, far from it: I’m a strict adherent to and proponent of the safe direction safety rule. I was challenging the assertion that every one of us will have an AD or ND. With proper training, and properly maintained firearms, we can get the probability so low that over a human life, the cumulative probability is low, perhaps even negligible.

  3. avatar Lon Loren says:

    Any time you use power tools, safety rules always apply. These things are powerful, they can tear you up when you don’t respect their power.

  4. avatar MrBob says:

    I prefer Negligent Discharge.
    IMO, “Unintentional” makes it sound almost faultless.

    1. avatar Tom says:

      See, I prefer unintentional, as negligent seems to point it as your fault.

      Think Remington 700 safeties.

      I have seen that release the firing pin without human interaction or at the improper time. You can also have unintentional discharges from semi autos like my fathers AR that the firing pin jammed in and slam fired the mag empty.

      One could argue that the human could intervene and cause both to not happen but that would require prior knowledge of a problem. Back to Remington again on that one……
      But as for a piece of debris or a broken part…. unintentional.

      1. avatar AZgunner says:

        I feel like they’re two different things. A negligent discharge is when you screw up and fire a round. An accidental discharge is when through no fault of your own a round somehow is fired.

        99% of the time, people are being negligent. Unless they dropped their Sig P320…

        1. avatar Chris says:

          320 was fixed to stop that one problem — but BEFORE it was fixed it passed all the “safe firearm” roster state “extensive” drop tests.

          Aren’t you glad we have government testing to make sure a gun is safe for you to have?

        2. avatar Ken Forbus says:

          If you drop your 320 you have already been negligent.

      2. avatar FedUp says:

        I had an AD once. Or does it count as a ND if I was the one who adjusted the trigger too light ten minutes before it happened?

        Anyway, shooting paper, had a FTF caused by not disengaging the safety. Reached up with my thumb and disengaged the safety (finger no longer in trigger guard) and BANG.

        Since I had it pointed in a safe direction (still pointed at the target) I put one in the black. Hit the 7 ring, but at least it was in the black.

        1. avatar Toni says:

          have had a couple of those with the ruger MKIV’s at the club. in letting off the slide release it is easy to push the safety half on with the base of your thumb pushing against the safety. this will cause it to not fire but if you then release the safety back to where it should be it will fire without your finger on the trigger. this has been the subject of a recall from ruger on these. i was however keeping it pointed downrange the whole time as is standard practice for me.

  5. avatar JasonM says:

    While adherence to all four rules is critical, the priority needs to be safe muzzle direction at all times.

    Cooper’s four rules are really just two rules. The first rule doesn’t really proscribe or endorse any specific behavior, it’s more like an umbrella for the others. The second and fourth are just variations on the safe direction idea (if you don’t know what’s around or beyond your target, you don’t know that’s a safe direction).

    The NRA instructional program teaches three rules:
    1) Keep the firearm pointed in a safe direction. (They call this the primary rule of gun safety.)
    2) Keep your finger off the trigger until you’re on target and ready to fire.
    3) Keep the firearm unloaded, until you’re ready to use* it.

    I think these rules are better for beginner classes.

    * “Use” does not only mean “shoot”, carrying a defensive gun is usage.

    1. avatar Gilbert Bond says:

      I agree.
      When I teach, #1 is #1
      If you ALWAYS do #1, even if you screw up, nothing really bad will happen.

      When picking up a gun.
      Do #1 first.
      Then check to see if loaded.

    2. avatar RidgeRunner says:

      “unloaded until you’re ready to use it” lacks clarity. My gun is in on me right now, loaded, but I’m not ready to use it. You might say I’m ready to use it if I need to, hence the vagueness.

      1. avatar TheOtherDavid says:

        Yes, that is vague, I believe intentionally so, because the idea of “use“ will be different for many people. If it is on your person, for the purposes of being a personal defense weapon, that is indeed “in use” and loaded is a perfectly appropriate condition for it.

        I have a good chat about the concept and students seem to grasp it early on.

      2. avatar JasonM says:

        If only I had included a footnote to the word “use” clarifying that and identifying a ready self defense gun as an in use gun. Oh wait…I did.

  6. avatar kenneth says:

    “an unintentional discharge is any time the gun fires as a result of failing to follow basic safety rules. ”
    Incorrect. That is the definition of a NEGLIGENT discharge. Any time the basic rules of safety are ignored, whether through ignorance, carelessness, or apathy, it is negligent. A truly UNINTENTIONAL discharge is like this one:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADGyglYqeoM
    BTW, this vid also shows that the statement: “Modern semi-automatic firearms don’t “go off” by themselves. They can only be fired through human intervention.”, is, at the least, misleading. They might not be able to discharge without some type of input from an entity(dogs, for example) touching them, but they can go off without any input to the trigger mechanism, which is what is suggested by that statement.

    1. avatar Lon Loren says:

      Semi auto can have a mechanical failure causing an ad. Colt 1911 Broken sear spring stuck firing pin spring. Series 70 dropped on its muzzle causing the firing pin to hit the primer. Glocks had a mechanical problem with AD when charging the weapon the firing pin striker didn’t hold when the slide went into battery. Keep muzzle pointed in safe direction.

      1. avatar kenneth says:

        Old style single action revolvers also have a quirk wherein a blow to the hammer will fire a round under the hammer, even though the hammer is uncocked. This was solved by carrying the hammer down on an empty chamber. A transfer bar, or similar mechanism solves this.
        Each firearm design has its quirks. The treatment is to be thoroughly familiar with the design one chooses, whatever that might be.

  7. avatar Ralph says:

    “Keep your finger off the trigger so that even if you fail at the others, the risk of property or personal injury is eliminated.”

    FIFY.

    And yes, there have been guns that fired without pulling the trigger (see SIG P320 and Rem 700 for recent examples). But you can’t drop a gun in a safe direction.

    1. avatar L says:

      This. This this this, so much. Reading that part of the article made me angry to say the least. Number 3 on that list is by far the most important.

  8. avatar Timothy says:

    I explain a modified set of rules to my children and newer shooters who use my guns.

    1, never point your gun at anyone. (Let’s be honest about “willing to destroy”. I am not willing to shoot my house, yet there’s no other way to point a gun once inside).

    2, keep your finger off the trigger until you’re ready to pull it.

    3, always know whether your gun is loaded, and unload it whenever feasible.

    4, always treat your gun as though it’s loaded, even after you take the bullets out.

    I tell them to double check a firearm if they’re told it’s unloaded. I like to say “If God himself hands you the very Mosin that Simo Hayha used during the Winter War and tells you it’s unloaded, pull the bolt back and check. If God gives you attitude for taking your safety into your own hands, hand the rifle back and find a new God. Trust, but verify. Always”

  9. avatar Amir Noweder says:

    I would say there are no absolutes. I recently had an AR of mine unintentionally discharge on an indoor range. The trigger pins came loose and caused it fire a second round after I fired the first one. That had nothing to do with negligence or complacency. It was a failure of the gun not my adherence to the safety rules. I am a Marine and was a Primary Marksmanship Instructor and Range Coach for 3 years in the Corps so the safety rules are engraved in my DNA and yet I still had an unintentional discharge. Look at recorded cases of unintentional discharges from Sig P320s do you blame the people that carried the guns or the design flaw that caused them to discharge when dropped? There is a big difference between Negligent discharges and intentional discharges.

    1. avatar Ed Schrade says:

      Anything and everything mechanical can fail. My security six has not failed so far but a single shot , bolt action 22 cal. rifle discharged after taking it off safety. It was pointed in a safe direction. Rifle had fallen into sand and could not open the bolt without taking off safety. A good cleaning took care of the issue.

  10. avatar Owen says:

    No offense to Cooper, but the NRA three are easier to remember. They are simple for simple folks. Rule one should always be muzzle discipline.

  11. avatar former water walker says:

    Only had one unintentional discharge. At the range and I still had the gun pointed forward. That’s it in my scant 7 years of shooting. To those who say NEVER have you ever been in a car accident?!? Shite happens…

    1. avatar TomC says:

      Sorry, poor wader, but car accidents are not the same as NEGLIGENT Discharges.

      Car accidents can happen due to circumstances outside the driver’s control — having your firearm “Just Go Off” is plain BS. Firearms go off because the person handling it did something wrong.

  12. avatar Joe R. says:

    Teach New Shooters The Right Way – Plan on an all out war on the POS (D) before you’ve passed from this earth.

    “Democrats Push Licensing, Registration of Semi-Automatic Handguns, Rifles”
    http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2018/06/11/democrats-push-firearm-licensing-registration-in-house-senate/

    F em all.

  13. avatar cisco kid says:

    quote————————-Modern semi-automatic firearms don’t “go off” by themselves. They can only be fired through human intervention. As gun owners, students and practitioners of the art, it’s incumbent on us to be safe with our firearms. If something is predictable, then it’s preventable.——————–quote

    Not exactly true as there have been many dangerously defective firearms manufactured over the years and hundreds of recalls to that effect.

    The Glock perfection advertisements always bring hysterical laughter as they had a problem with their guns going off when dropped and even the slides falling off the frames when dropped and then firing off all by themselves

    Holstering unsafely designed striker fired guns have also resulted in horrific injuries and even death. Again an unsafely designed firearm that is cocked and has no manual safety is an accident waiting to happen and happen it does all to frequently.

    Injuries and death have resulted in unsafely designed firearms in regards to unsafe take down systems as found on the Glock where you must pull the trigger to take off the slide. An accident waiting to happen as if you forget just one time to check the chamber you can and probably will shoot yourself or someone nearby. Other more safely designed firearms require you to lock back the slide which avoids this easily made mistake of not checking the chamber first.

    1. avatar Chris says:

      your rants are very strange. Striker fired guns have no higher ND rate than any other gun.

      And ND have been FALLING nationally compared to estimated rounds of ammo bought each year as strikers have proliferated.

      The LASD study showed Only in Geezers (like you) who had been trained on heavy triggers or worse yet manual safety guns had increased ND rates when moving to strikers. People initially trained on strikers with NO safety had NO elevated ND rate

      heavy triggers and manual safety are show by the data to increase risk of hitting bystanders (NYPD failed heavy triggger) and increase sloppy habits.

      but don’t let actual data get in the way of your uninformed and idiotic screeds!

      1. avatar cisco kid says:

        quote——————–your rants are very strange. Striker fired guns have no higher ND rate than any other gun.——————-quote

        Where do you live in a cave junior. The New York Police department had so many accidental discharges with Glocks they ranted to Glock they were going to shit can everyone of those damn unsafe pistols. It is what led to the New York trigger but it did not prove to be an adequate solution to the problem because the Glock is basically a single action mechanism and its short stroke trigger travel is not made all that much safer when made heavier compared to the long stroke double action pull of a revolver or that of a long double action pull of a semi-auto like the Beretta 92 or Sig 226 which have way less accidental discharge rates.

        Massad Ayoob did a study proving that when police departments switched over to long hard double action only auto pistols the accident rate went down dramatically. If you were not so cheap and forked over a few pennies for a subscription rate to a few gun mags this would be old news to you.

        Next time before making a fool of yourself to a little research first junior boy. This is too easy you offer me no challenge Jethro.

        1. avatar Chris says:

          You keep repeating the same nonsense. the NYPD has had MORE – not less — actually accidental shootings of bystanders since switching to a heavier trigger .

          NYPD is missing center mass

          And I gave a STUDY you are just ranting.

          We know heavier triggers and external safety are more dangerous. heavy triggers are PROVEN to reduce accuracy, and external safeties don’t reduce ND one iota, they just make people sloppier. why do you think MORE not less police departments in the US and world wide are adopting strikers???

        2. avatar cisco kid says:

          quote—————–nk MORE not less police departments in the US and world wide are adopting strikers???——————-quote—————-You keep repeating the same nonsense. the NYPD has had MORE – not less — actually accidental shootings of bystanders since switching to a heavier trigger .—————-quote

          Again your living in the past. The facts are that many police departments have given up on striker fired guns with no manual safety because of all the negligent discharges. There was even a video of a Police Chief who reached across his desk and grabbed a Glock by the front part of the slide. As he pulled it towards himself the trigger naturally caught on something that was sitting on the desk and he shot himself. Just one of literally hundreds of examples of striker fired guns without manual safeties going off and shooting people.

          Its also documented that people including cops often get shirt tails, cords from jackets or leather holsters bending the top and coming into contact with the trigger and setting them off while in the holster.

          Here is a picture of a man who shot himself because of how unsafe striker fired guns are without manual safeties.

          http://seanlinnane.blogspot.com/2011/03/glock-accidental-discharge.html

          And lets not forget all the civilians that have died because of these unsafe designs Like the young mother shot in the head by her two year old while shopping when the kid reached into her purse and pulled out her striker fired gun without a manual safety or another pro gun mother who was driving when her toddler reached from his car seat and pulled out her .45 striker fired gun and shot her in the back. I could go on for pages and pages of documented unnecessary deaths and shootings by cops and civilians using such unsafe weapons.

          And last summer a cop got out of his cruiser on an ordinary traffic stop. His glock went off accidentally and shot the passenger of the car he stopped. Just one of hundreds of incidents of cops shooting themselves or others accidentally.

          As I said before when the NYPD went to a heavier trigger in the Glock it did not work precisely because it does not have a long strong double action pull only a heavier short stroke single action pull and the New York Trigger did not do what it was supposed to do. Again Massay Ayoob who studied the problem in depth proved the double action only guns like the Beretta and Sig lowered accidental shootings dramatically.

          I think even a retarded Moron could see that the long stroke double action pistol is a way safer gun to handle.

        3. avatar Chris says:

          Cisco
          so again you have NO data when I refereed to data and studies that show strikers like glock are exactly as safe if not safer.

          so we know strikers like glock don’t have higher ND rates, and we do know heavy trigger pulls do result in more misses and bystanders hit (NYPD’s terrible numbers), and your response is an anecdote?

          From your posts on other threads here it is s clear you don’t know a barrel form a slide, a semi auto from an auto. You also don’t know what “may issue vs shall issue” is, what is on a 4473, that US gun murder has fallen massively the past generation when you have claimed it is up. you even say younger people support gun bans more often when ALL the polls ont his show that it is only geezers over 60 like you who support AR bans in majority over the past ten year average.

          In short, you keep proving:
          – you don’t know a thing about firearms
          — you don’t know a thing about firearms law
          – you certainly don’t know about social science and demographics on attitudes either.

        4. avatar cisco kid says:

          To know it all Chris who knows nothing about the dangers of striker fired guns without manual safeties.

          Well I just got back from the range today and ran into a fellow shooter I had never met before. He showed me graphic pictures of his wound because he had previously shot himself with a striker fired Kahr pistol that did not have a manual safety. You know, Chirs the striker fired guns that are so safe according to your Moronic rantings. It seems the fellow put the gun in his back pocket and forgot it was there and when he sat down at his computer natural the unsafe striker fired gun went right off immediately. Now this would have been highly unlikely with a traditional double action, single action with a manual safety and impossible with a single action gun with the hammer down.

          It all goes to prove that there are indeed some guns that are way less safe to handle and carry as you never know what unusual accident might just happen and with the unsafe striker guns without a manual safety they are just an accident looking for some place to happen and the grave yards are full of dead people that proved that yes Darwinist is alive and well with the Jethro Bodine crowd who think I am perfect and an accident will never happen because I have never made a mistake in my life and I never will. You know the same people that think like Chris does, arrogant and a firm believer in their own infallibility. Famous last words written on many tomb stones.

          I can only come to one conclusion Chris works for Glock as a cheer leader and head propagandist.

        5. avatar Rastan says:

          There are a number of theories as to why, per pistol, Glocks have lower negligent discharge rates. But theories aside, they remain the safest duty gun. My city’s department switched over to Glock about six years ago and saw a reduction in problems. why complain about Glocks being safer?

        6. avatar TomC says:

          The only thing wrong with Glocks that caused all the cases of Glock Leg at NYPD and several other departments was poor training. They took officers who had been poorly trained handling DA revolvers and handed them Single Action automatics with no manual safety with minimal training on the transition. The transition training that the officers got addressed HANDLING the new gun on a range, and SHOOTING the new gun on a range, but was woefully inadequate to overcome years of bad habits HOLSTERING their DA revolvers.

          Well, actually there was one other (closely related) problem with the mass transition of police departments to the Glock. Top Brass actually believed the Glock advertising that Glock pistols had some magic “Safe Action” rather than recognizing that the Glock is a Single Action pistol (the same action that most departments absolutely prohibited officers from carrying on or off duty).

    2. avatar ironicatbest says:

      I don’t like Glocks no safe saftey either. I’m with Cisco on this one. May the sparks fly

      1. avatar Chris says:

        Except the data show cisco is totally wrong, The data show that strikers do not have higher rates, it is only persons who are trained and over many years habituated to crutches like external safety or revolver or heavy trigger that develop bad habits and have slightly higher ND rates in the first year or two they are switched to strikers.

        People who are trained initially on strikers, AND persons who despite earlier non striker use and are on striker for a couple of years, do NOT have elevated rates of ND at all — as long term police department studies conducted over year with large sample sizes, have shown.

    3. avatar Chris says:

      @ Cisco, you are a geezer living in the past. More law enforcement has no external safety striker than EVER. More in the US, more in Europe and more worldwide.

    4. avatar Rastan says:

      “The Glock perfection advertisements always bring hysterical laughter as they had a problem with their guns going off when dropped”

      I see your posts on this site saying that “Semi auto firearms are weapons of war” and shoudl not be owned by civilians. so yo have no experience with semi auto firearms and are lecturing?

      I like Sig, but you are so strident and hysterical in your ranting, that you clearly are confusing a demonstrated Sig problem with Glock. I’m not for beating Sig up for its drop discharge problems but your blaming Glock because more Sigs go off when dropped is bizarre thought process.

      1. avatar cisco kid says:

        To Rat that eats cheese

        Quote————————“The Glock perfection advertisements always bring hysterical laughter as they had a problem with their guns going off when dropped”

        I see your posts on this site saying that “Semi auto firearms are weapons of war” and shoudl not be owned by civilians. so yo have no experience with semi auto firearms and are lecturing?

        I like Sig, but you are so strident and hysterical in your ranting, that you clearly are confusing a demonstrated Sig problem with Glock. I’m not for beating Sig up for its drop discharge problems but your blaming Glock because more Sigs go off when dropped is bizarre thought process.———————quote

        First off your a damn liar as I never said any weapon should be outlawed only that Glocks and stirker fired guns should have manual safeties. I know this is beyond your reading comprehension

        Second. NOW PAY ATTENTION JETHRO AND YOU WILL LEARN SOMETHING. No I am not confusing the Sig with the Glock. The Glock went through not 1 but 3 design changes on its rails because the slides would fall off the frames if dropped and go off. The defective passive firing pin safety was also re-designed and recalled (oops I mean it was called an upgrade) as if we were all to stupid to know they were one and the same.

        GIVE UP JETHRO YOUR OUT OF YOUR LEAGUE.

        1. avatar CC says:

          How does that explain the fact that Glocks do not have an elevated accidental discharge rate?

  14. avatar johnny go lightly says:

    In instructing new shooters I have used a mnemonic. Just an easy way to drill the 4 rules into folks mind and keep em there. Here it is …L..P..O..T. Pronounced “el..pot”.
    L-loaded rule
    P-pointing rule
    O-finger off trigger rule
    T-target rule

    Especially for younger shooters coming off the 4 rules of Eddie Eagle. Or for total newbie grown ass ADULTS…..LPOT…repeat,repeat,repeat.

    Memory structures are built on repetition and successive added detail. Start with LPOT….Then continue to add the detail.

    Second thing to drill in their minds….USE YOUR PINKY FINGER TO SHOVE INTO THE CHAMBER. Make it a reflex. Don’t trust your eyes.

  15. avatar Chris says:

    Real world injury ND are virtually all concealed carriers, and a common thread is not the gun and holster but changing it without training .

    We know carriers have been getting safer because the ND injury rate per carry licencee has PLUNGED.

    1. avatar FedUp says:

      the ND injury rate per carry licencee has PLUNGED.

      The number of CC licensees has gone up dramatically in the last couple of decades while the number of LEOs has remained nearly constant. Therefore the LEO population per carry licensee has plunged while the ND injuries per licensee have plunged. Correlation does not prove causation, but it’s not hard to imagine causation there…

      1. avatar Chris says:

        Not exactly sure how that goes to my point. The majority are concealed carriers (both LEO and civilian) yet ND injury have dropped as concealed carry increased. There has been a marked increase in departments mandating that uniformed police carry when off duty and not in uniform. In my jurisdiction about eight years ago this became mandatory for off duty police to carry except in a narrow set of excluded circumstances. that increased concealed carry by cops used to on the belt open carry has increased along with civilian carry.

        In terms of general ND police demonstrates that have gathered data see the problem not with type of firearm (revolver, lighter or heavier trigger, Da/Sa hammer vs striker, with or without external safeties); but with older officers trained on one type and departmentchanges and older officers having an increase in ND for a short period after a change. We know it is the change doing it instead of the type, since younger officers trained initially on striker don’t have higher ND rates, and older officers trained originally on hammer do have increased ND rate, but their elevated ND rate decreases over time (ie with practice/more training).

        Also given the CDC did not merely ignore control for criminal gun owners in their three junk science “household with guns are more dangerous studies”, but insisted they would NOT control for criminal gun owners, even if they had the data; we can expect the same if we were ever dumb enough to let the CDC get funded to look at NDs. since that would also be junk since inverting the actual facts, given you can bet they wont control for no-holster Mexican carrying gang bangers.

        1. avatar cisco kid says:

          quote———————We know it is the change doing it instead of the type, since younger officers trained initially on striker don’t have higher ND rates, and older officers trained originally on hammer do have increased ND rate, but their elevated ND rate decreases over time (ie with practice/more training).———————-quote

          Pure bullshit. The accident rates with all cops rose dramatically when they adopted the Glock pistol.

          In many foreign countries Glocks are actually barred from importation unless they have a factory manual safety. That should tell even the Retarded something.

        2. avatar Chris says:

          @ cisco, data says you are wrong, and as i said Glock sales in Europe are INCREASING not decreasing.

          Your prior posts show yo have never handled a firearm, you have confused automatic and semi automatic,.

          I refereed to a major STUDY and you are referring to nothing and citing nothing other than your own theory constructed out of total ignorance, which has been debunked

        3. avatar Chris says:

          Pure bullshit. The accident rates with all cops rose dramatically when they adopted the Glock pistol.

          It FELL.

    2. avatar cisco kid says:

      The facts remain that when cops carried revolvers the accident rate was way lower and when they used double action only auto’s the accident rates did not go up but dropped dramatically when they swtiched from the glock to the double action only Sigs and Beretta models and when they switched to the Glock the accident rates soared forcing many departments to drop the Glock.

      Its no accident (pun intended) that Smith engineered their latest and greatest plasticky striker fired pistol with a manual safety.

      1. avatar Chris says:

        Actually when cops carry revolvers accident rates were HIGHER, but don’t let the actual data upset you cisco — we are used to you making it UP

        why do you think accidents are down as strikers increased and external safeties decreased in proportion?

        NOt one department that switched to striker saw any increase in ND in new personnel. None.

        1. avatar cisco kid says:

          Your a damned liar Chirs. You must work for Glock

          . Gun week magazine has run countless stories over the years on horrific accidents with Glock pistols both with civilians and with the Police. The grave yards are full of victims that were accidentally shot by police and in the case of civilians I have already posted just a few of the very sad stories.

        2. avatar Rastan says:

          65% of police departments and agencies use Glocks (PoliceOne). About 1/4 of accidents involving police in noted in GunWeek are Glocks. That is a cognition problem on your end to surmise Glocks are more dangerous.. You are probably also the type that does know per capita matters in statistics as well. Glock is mentioned more than any other single make, but per per pistol your own source indicates Glock is much safer.

          Do you think Maryland is more dangerous than Texas because Texas has more raw numbers of murders? Texas has more people, and what we call the “per capita rate” is what is important. Texas’ per capita murder rate is lower, and it is the state that is safer.

  16. avatar ironicatbest says:

    WTF ” Play with fire long enuff and you’ll get burned” Have a gun you will eventually have an ND. If that isn’t food for the anti Gunners I don’t know what is. That instructor is fcked up on that statement.Anyway to make money right.

  17. avatar SigLifeSailor says:

    I feel like I’m in the minority, but I’ve always emphasized Rule #3 to new shooters and myself. The VAST majority of unintentional discharges happen because someone pulled the trigger when they weren’t supposed to (aka the vast majority of them are NDs). As stated, modern firearms don’t (usually) just “go off”, they require human interaction and agency to make that happen. If you always maintain muzzle discipline, but the gun accidentally goes off, no one gets hurt, but if you always maintain trigger discipline and violate every other rule with reckless abandon, the gun just won’t go off. Obviously all of the rules are important, but I feel that trigger discipline is the most important discipline.

  18. avatar GS650G says:

    Had an AR go full auto due to a mechanical problem. It was a 9mm carbine. Emptied the mag in seconds and was quite a surprise. I would characterise the full auto burst as an unintended discharge.

    1. avatar TomC says:

      Ignoring the very notion of having an AR in 9mm, let me ask you ONE question about that unexpected full auto incident: Did you pull the trigger? If so, it the discharge was not unintentional. So, unless you panicked when the runaway occurred, the rounds all went in a safe direction.

      But you do bring up a point. Guns can malfunction — it is actually far more rare than reports try to claim, but it can happen. However other than a cook off in one of the few closed-bolt full-auto firearms, I have never seen or heard of any firearm that fired without some control or component being operated. There were several pump shotguns manufactured without disconnectors, there were the Remingtons that could fire when the safety was moved to off (after the trigger was pulled with the safety on), there are the Army’s latest batch of M4 carbines that do almost the same thing, there are at least two documented cases of hunting dogs firing shotguns by pawing the trigger, and of course most recently we have the famous Dancing Fool who demonstrated how most of the instances of guns “going off” when dropped actually occur (by someone pulling the trigger while trying to catch or pick up the dropped gun).

      Bottom line… Unintentional Discharges occur when the person (or perhaps dog) handling the firearm does SOMETHING, and it almost always involves doing something wrong. Having an UNSAFE Unintended Discharge happens only when you do something wrong.

  19. avatar Bruce says:

    No one here will probably willingly admit to a real unintentional discharge, so here goes. A number of years ago, I had taken a Glock 17 to the range. Afterwards, I was going to field strip it to clean it. Glocks require that you press the trigger first, which requires that you rack the slide before that. Did that, and there hadn’t been a round in the chamber to eject. Good. So, I pointed it in a safe direction and pulled the trigger. Whoops. There had been a magazine in the gun, and a round from that magazine had been loaded into the chamber by racking the slide (not really that obvious, since the magazine fit in the gun fairly flushly). So, now it was loaded. Pointing it in a safe direction had been the lifesaver.

    1. avatar Chris says:

      OK so you ignored the most basic rule of looking at the chamber? No offense but that is not an unintentional discharge but a negligent one! and plenty of people cleaning guns pull a trigger, it is an accepted and common method of field stripping a s&W shield, listed in my shield manual, turn OFF the safety and pull trigger to field strip. But you need to LOOK in the chamber before field stripping any gun. Racking a slide will fail to extract at some point in ANY gun.

      1. avatar cisco kid says:

        Chris your an absolute hillbilly Moron. Guns like the Beretta and Sig 226 require you to lock back the slide before take down. This is safe engineering not the idiotic engineering of a Glock. Some day a gun savvy lawyer is going to take Glock to the cleaners with a multi-million dollar lawsuit over their poorly and dangerously designed weapo .

        1. avatar tdiinva says:

          For once I have agree with you. The Glock is safety engineering disaster. Every other polymer pistol that requires you to pull the trigger to release the slide also requires the slide to be locked back to move the take down lever. It’s very hard to make a mistake and have an ND when you field strip the gun.

        2. avatar tdiinva says:

          Statistically speaking Chris is probably better educated and makes more money than you do so I would refrain from the ad hominen if I were you.

        3. avatar Chris says:

          Cisco, I can grantee you I am better educated. My guess is you are the hillbilly moron, I have my postgrad. with the exception of posting overseas, and have never lived south of of DC or west of Baltimore my entire life, but given your endless stream of falsehoods and ignorance I am guessing you are a profoundly uneducated, certainly unemployed fool.

          NYPD shootings of bystanders increased after deployment of heavy trigger spring guns and has stayed elevated. That is a stone cold fact. DA/SA guns have some advantages AND disadvantages. First shots on a DA are just like a revolver, or gun altered by substituting in a heavy spring, are more likely to completely miss center mass and hit others. The LASD study showed clearly that officers initially trained on strikers had no increased ND rate than did officers using hammer DA guns.

          So your entire thesis, is that a person like yourself, who does not know firearms, refers to not one data set or study, making assertions that the data and studies show are incorrect.

          Glocks are increasing, more are sold every year, but fatal NDs have fallen not risen.

          As far as my point on takedown you did not even address it.

          you clearly don’t know p226 since it can be taken down without locking back, you just turn the release and pull back you do NOT need to engage the rear lock to take the slide off. And if you do not visually check the chamber ANY gun can go off when taking it down or cleaning it. Your advocacy of people taking shortcuts by not checking the chamber is simply a further expression of your lack of knowledge.

        4. avatar cisco kid says:

          To Chris the Godamn liar who just made every owner of every Sig 228, 226 and 220 laugh their ass off.

          Ok you ignorant arrogant hill jack, I am sitting here in front of my computer with all 3 of those guns, and your a damn liar because none of them will let you rotate the take down lever at all until the slide is pulled back.

          You really jumped head first into your out house on that statement. Your a fool and a liar.

        5. avatar cisco kid says:

          To Tiddle Brain,

          quote————–Statistically speaking Chris is probably better educated and makes more money than you do so I would refrain from the ad hominen if I were you.——————-quote

          You gave me a good laugh. Chris is an absolute Moron and if he knew anything at all about guns he read it in a book. He made a fool of himself today with his statement he could rotate the take down lever of a Sig P226 without pulling back the slide which means he has never owned one or even handled one but pretends to be an expert on how they work.

          If he did graduate from a university he should “not have” and he probably hired someone to take his exams for him that’s for sure.

        6. avatar cisco kid says:

          Hey Chris since you do not know how a P226 strips down here is a Youtube video so you can learn how its done. You must lock the slide back first so next time do not shoot your big mouth off about weapons you know nothing about.

        7. avatar Rastan says:

          Chris, Cisco is wrong on this. Notice he does not mention checking the chamber on a Glock? You don’t *need* to lock back the slide on a P226, or P229 as instructed to strip it. Just as you don’t need to look in the chamber of a Glock to strip it as instructed either. Not sure why Cisco is insisting you follow the instructions on a P229 to strip it safely, but ignore the instructions on a Glock to strip it safely.

        8. avatar tdiinva says:

          I was going to make a similar observation about his firearms familiarity. He knows just enough about firearms to sound knowledgeable to the ignorant but anybody who is knowledgeable sees right through him.

          However, the Glock design is fundamentally flawed because it there are no safeguards to prevent inattentiveness from going south

        9. avatar Rastan says:

          Anything simpler can be claimed to be more dangerous. But there is also irrefutable evidence of two well understood phenomena in safety studies indicated why this is often not the case:
          1) technical increases in safety introduce operator overconfidence in the safety system; and
          2) technical safety devices that add complexity, especially under stress introduce, complexity driven error during use.

          I’ve got a Toyota which grades in laboratory testing extremely well. I’ve got a Jeep wrangler JK which tests horribly. Event wranglers theoretical dynamics are terrible. But when I insured them the liability and injury rate was lower for the Jeep. The reason why is the tracking data shows much lower accident, death and injury rates in the Jeep. It is likely this derives from the way people drive them. Enough people drive jeeps more attentively and carefully.

          The different topic of task complexity driven user error derived from both brain and fine motor function error, especially under stress, is also something shown and duplicated in experiments.

      2. avatar tdiinva says:

        Speaking of morons Crisco, hammer fired guns have a different mechanical configuration from striker fired guns and don’t require a trigger pull to complete disassembly. Some hammer fired guns require you to lock back the slide and other don’t. On 1911 types there is a slide stop release notch. You line up the catch with the notch and pop out the slide stop and you can release the slide. The Browning Hi Power has a take down notch for the safety but you don’t have to actually use it to push the slide stop out. I don’t own a Sig so I don’t know if you actually have to lock back the slide to rotate the lever or it just makes it easier to do it. I am inclined to think it just makes it easier.

        1. avatar Rastan says:

          My sig p938, you do not need to lock slide, you turn the gun on its side and press the small end of slide release pin while moving slide forward and back to let it drop out.

          Not incidentally, my external manual safety Sig P938 has the opposite direction from my Ruger SR-22. That is a big problem with manual safeties right there. When my kids get older I will teach them to never use the thumb safety on the Ruger. One is “up safe,” down fire” — the other is “up fire” and “down safe.” I’d sell them both but they were my dad’s.

        2. avatar tdiinva says:

          The 938 is a 1911 patterned pistol. It comes apart more or less like a 1911. One of the reasons why why I don’t carry a Beretta 92/M-9 is that the safety hoes the wrong way, at least for me. And the 92 doesn’t require you to lock back the slide to take it down. In fact the instructions are for you to leave it in battery.

        3. avatar cisco kid says:

          To Rat who eats cheese

          quote——————–My sig p938, you do not need to lock slide, you turn the gun on its side and press the small end of slide release pin while moving slide forward and back to let it drop out.———————-quote

          READING COMPREHENSION JETHRO, READING COMPREHENSION. Chuckle this is to easy.

          Look you Moron not once did Chris or I speak of the Sig P938. Now what part of this do you not understand???????

          Chis’s original nut ball statement was on the Sig P226 and I also mentioned the Sig P220 , 226 and 228 and later because of your bizarre statement the Sig P229. None of which can be taken down without first locking back the slide. Now Moron what part of this do you not understand. Watch the videos provided this is not rocket science Jethro.

        4. avatar cisco kid says:

          to Tiddle Brain

          Quote—————————Speaking of morons Crisco, hammer fired guns have a different mechanical configuration from striker fired guns and don’t require a trigger pull to complete disassembly. Some hammer fired guns require you to lock back the slide and other don’t. On 1911 types there is a slide stop release notch. You line up the catch with the notch and pop out the slide stop and you can release the slide. The Browning Hi Power has a take down notch for the safety but you don’t have to actually use it to push the slide stop out. I don’t own a Sig so I don’t know if you actually have to lock back the slide to rotate the lever or it just makes it easier to do it. I am inclined to think it just makes it easier.———————–quote

          HA, HA THIS IS GETTING TO EASY. Look Moron the discussion was about the take down of the Sig P226. We do not need a ramble about other weapons that have nothing to do with the original statement.

          And by the way Junior I was working on the guns you mentioned long before you were shitting in your stinking diapers.

          quote——————————I don’t own a Sig so I don’t know if you actually have to lock back the slide to rotate the lever or it just makes it easier to do it. I am inclined to think it just makes it easier.——————————–quote

          NO YOU ARE INCLINED TO BE WRONG BECAUSE YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT THIS SUBJECT.

          And since you mentioned you do not even own a Sig P226 you would have been better off to stay out of the arguments here, because rambling on about other guns only was an attempt “by you” to look experienced with firearms which of course you just proved you are not.

        5. avatar CC says:

          P226 stainless 2013 Austrian made 40 cal. I just pulled my slide back without activating the lock and the takedown lever turns as soon as lever aligns with half moon on slide, locked slide or not. My gun just came back form Sig Sauer factory in NH for E2 conversion. Are we saying Sig is fcking up their guns?

          Sigs do have some serious functional problems, slides not locking back, firing more often when dropped than other guns, but they esthetically nice guns. P226 is not made made for concealed carry of course but good for home defense.

          Where is the evidence for the claim Glocks have more negligent discharges per firearm? No evidence has been provided to support this silly claim. Just endless ad hominem by a gun control advocate (who is the least informed person here).

        6. avatar tdiinva says:

          Crisco, looks like a Sig owner just confirmed my conjecture. So who looks like a moron now?

  20. avatar Chris says:

    As I mentioned earlier in a reply to another poster the last source I would trust to look at ND in future is CDC. That is a shame but with three different CDC heads saying the purposes and goals of their work on guns was to increase gun control and reduce gun ownership, they have proven they will promulgate junk science, when we do need good science.

    The CDC did not merely ignore control for criminal gun owners in their three junk science “household with guns are more dangerous studies”, but insisted they would NOT control for criminal gun owners, even if they had the data; we can expect the same if we were ever dumb enough to let the CDC get funded to look at NDs.

    Since that would also be junk since inverting the actual facts, given you can bet they won’t control for no-holster Mexican carrying gang bangers, owning guns criminally, and engaging in crime, perhaps even claiming ND when they were actually brandishing and threatening someone with a gun or even claiming ND when intentionally shooting victims

    FYI also systematically refusing to control for the criminals who are ~5% of gun owners and ~95% of gun violence in their various studies: John Hopkins, Berkeley, Boston University medical School and Harvard Injury.

  21. avatar Sua Sponte says:

    I have to disagree with “unintentional discharge”, it’s negligent discharge. You either had your finger on the trigger or you didn’t. If you didn’t and the firearm discharges, then what was occurring that discharged the firearm? Not paying attention while holstering/un-holstering? That’s negligence. Outside of there being a no kidding mechanical issue with the firearm that causes discharge without a trigger pull, then it’s negligence.

    1. avatar cisco kid says:

      quote———————Outside of there being a no kidding mechanical issue with the firearm that causes discharge without a trigger pull, then it’s negligence.—————–quote

      Your 100 per cent wrong because your not taking into consideration all of the unusual situations where striker fired guns because they are unsafe do indeed fire off without anyone having a finger on the trigger. Read my post on Glocks and other stirker fired guns without manual safeties discharging while in a holster, in a back pocket, the trigger being snagged by objects when the gun is being handled. And how about the police chief that grabbed his glock while it was sitting on top his desk, he grabbed it by the muzzle and his hand was no were near the trigger and the trigger caught on an object that was sitting on his desk and he shot himself. It never would have happen with a gun with the manual safety in the on position or a gun with a heavy traditional double action trigger or even a single action gun with the hammer down.

      1. avatar Rastan says:

        But Glocks do not have more issues. That is a myth.

        1. avatar cisco kid says:

          To Rat that eats cheese.

          Brother if you had a brain you might survive to old age but I am afraid Darwinism will get you much sooner than later.

          The Glock has had a long sordid history with accidental discharges and it has been well documented even in the corrupt gun magazines as well as the former Gun Week news paper now called the Gun Mag. If you were not just out of diapers you would be very familiar with the myriad of articles that have detailed how unsafe this gun really is to handle and use. And also of all the recalls down through the years that were called “up grades” too numerous to go into here but that would be way above your head anyway.

        2. avatar CC says:

          You have yet to show one iota of evidence for your claim that Glocks have an accidental discharge rate. In fact your anecdotes show that per gun they have a lower than average rate.

      2. avatar Peter Clark says:

        I carry a 1911, .45 and occasionally a NAA .380. The .380 is striker fired and has never ‘gone off’ by accident, even when I carry it in my back pocket. The trick is to make sure the pistol is the only thing in the back pocket. Also when cleaning Any firearm, the first step is to UNLOAD it. That means removing the clip or magazine and THEN inspecting the chamber for any rounds. If you do it properly your firearm should never unintentionally fire.

        1. avatar Toni says:

          precisely. cleaning “accidents” are definitely ND’s. remove mag, cycle action several times without going near trigger and check chamber visually and with finger.

  22. avatar tdiinva says:

    Most NDs happen during what can be called adminstrative handling, i.e., during field stripping for maintenance and transferring to and from storage or between people.

    I keep my carry guns in a holster so I never have an exposed trigger when I put away or retrieve a gun. All my hand guns require a locked back slide to rotate the take down pin or are 1911s. Even so I always clear a firearm during adminstrative handling a firearm unless it’s holstered.

    1. avatar Chris says:

      Respectfully, we don’t know when most ND occur. If we are going to make any claim, I think most ND probably occur with illegal owners who don’t even use holsters. We know for a fact most alleged accidental shootings are associated with the 5% of so of gun owners who are already criminals with illegal guns. ND is probably the same.

      With legal gun owners, cops and civilians alike, the data suggest it is a) not gun type per se, but people changing gun operation type/manual of arms; and b) cops used to open carry while carrying concealed.

      Also gun laws can contribute to ND risks. I’m in DC right now and have had a CCL here for about four months. if while carrying I have to park on the street and run in to school to sign out my kid, or if I am going into a meeting in a building that also has a federal or local government office, or ride on the subway, I have to ”safely” store my weapon by unloading AND unchambering it.
      So for a subway ride I have to go into a public bathroom, and not only lock my gun in a littel pouch in my backpack or briefcase, but also eject mag AND unchamber a round, and lock the mag and loose round in a little pouch also inside my briefcase. i then have to redo it when getting off the subway. If I have my car and have to sign my kid form school I have to park, and — while seated, unholster, eject magazine, eject round, store each in a pouch under my seat, and reverse that as well. In my last jurisdictions i could simply lock the loaded gun in a lockbox under my seat — much safer than DC’s “gun safety’ laws allow.

      The one truly dangerous ND I have personally witnessed was at a bar on U street in DC three years ago where a guy showing off his (illegal) went off in a crowed bar, it was a miracle no one was hit., It was a DAK 229. it was not administrative handling, it was a prior felon with an illegal gun (turned out to be stolen from a cop).

      Like I said above it would be nice if we did not have a CDC which has proven itself utterly political wanting to end the Second Amendment, and academic institutions vowing to end gun rights because actual studies would be helpful — especially of ND that actually result in injury

      1. avatar tdiinva says:

        You have just told me that you think most NDs happen during what I called adminstrative handling.

        And congratulations on navigating DC’s permitting process. I used to live over the river in Arlington.

  23. avatar cisco kid says:

    Well I just got back from the range today and ran into a fellow shooter I had never met before. He showed me graphic pictures of his wound because he had previously shot himself with a striker fired Kahr pistol that does not have a manual safety. It seems the fellow put the gun in his back pocket and forgot it was there and when he sat down at his computer natural the unsafe striker fired gun went right off immediately. Now this would have been highly unlikely with a traditional double action, single action with a manual safety and impossible with a single action gun with the hammer down.

    It all goes to prove that there are indeed some guns that are way less safe to handle and carry as you never know what unusual accident might just happen and with the unsafe striker guns without a manual safety they are just an accident looking for some place to happen and the grave yards are full of dead people that proved that yes Darwinism is alive and well with the Jethro Bodine crowd who think I am perfect and an accident will never happen because I have never made a mistake in my life and I never will. You know the same people that think like Chris does, arrogant and a firm believer in their own infallibility. Famous last words written on many tomb stones.

    1. avatar tdiinva says:

      Wow, what a coincidence that you should have met this fellow who was so eager to share an intimate and embarrassing moment with a stranger at exactly the same time that this was a discussion on a firearms blog. You are so transparently a bull $h!tter.

      1. avatar Rastan says:

        Look at the post history of “Cisco Kid”

        You can find it here:
        https://www.google.com/search?q=site:thetruthaboutguns.com+cisco+kid

        He calls for total gun bans. He supports “Everytown” and has hundreds of unsubstantiated claims showing he absolutely is not a gun owner at all.

        He is saying that a pal of his negligently keeps his gun in no holster and in a back pocket and relates how it is the gun design fault if there a discharge? Really? maybe he can put a gun in a microwave and tell us about how a design is negligent

      2. avatar Rastan says:

        My comment got locked out due to url, here it is without active url, just replace “Dot” with a period.
        —————-
        Look at the post history of “Cisco Kid”

        You can find it here:
        google dot .com/search?q=site:thetruthaboutguns.com+”cisco+kid”

        He calls for total gun bans. Taxes on ammunition. He supports mandatory insurance for gun owners. He supports “Everytown.” He supports mandatory “smart guns.” He has hundreds of unsubstantiated claims showing he absolutely is not a gun owner at all.

        He is saying that a pal of his negligently keeps his gun in no holster and in a back pocket and relates how it is the gun design fault if there a discharge? Really? maybe he can put a gun in a microwave and tell us about how a design is negligent

        1. avatar cisco kid says:

          quote——————————–He calls for total gun bans. Taxes on ammunition. He supports mandatory insurance for gun owners. He supports “Everytown.” He supports mandatory “smart guns.” He has hundreds of unsubstantiated claims showing he absolutely is not a gun owner at all.————————quote

          NICE TRY YOU FKING LIAR BUT NOT ONE OF YOUR ACCUSATIONS IS TRUE, NOT ONE AND THAT LINK PROVES IT LIAR. DID YOU REALLY THINK YOU COULD GET AWAY WITH THAT BIG A LIE???????

        2. avatar cisco kid says:

          To Rat that eats cheese

          AGAIN YOU ARE A LIAR about the sig P229 and here is the way you strip it down. You must lock back the slide first.

      3. avatar cisco kid says:

        to tiddily brain

        quote———————-Wow, what a coincidence that you should have met this fellow who was so eager to share an intimate and embarrassing moment with a stranger at exactly the same time that this was a discussion on a firearms blog. You are so transparently a bull $h!tter.——————-quote

        No Moron it proves how common this is when people own and try to carry unsafe firearms like the striker fired guns that do not have manual safeties.

        1. avatar CC says:

          Your friends carry loaded chambered upholstered guns in their back pockets and that is your example of blaming a gun design for an ND?

          Calling others here “morons” or “hillbilly” when you are barely literate?

          You do realize we can look at your other posts here? You say no civilian should have any semi-automatic gun. You also say cops are the worst, so given you are not a cop, how do you have one?

          I still am waiting for your reply to my numbers on suicide+homicide in Japan which you claimed was lower than the US — when I gave the WHO number showing it is higher than the US. Do you deny writing that the US should have Japans gun laws?

        2. avatar tdiinva says:

          I see you are doubling down on the lie. You didn’t go to the range today and you didn’t run into someone who rushed to tell you about his “accident” and proudly show off the pictures of his perforated gluteus maximus to you.

        3. avatar tdiinva says:

          He just brought up Japan’s gun laws again and is silent about you proving him wrong about the requirement to locking back the slide on the Sig.

        4. avatar cisco kid says:

          To CC

          Quote—————You do realize we can look at your other posts here? You say no civilian should have any semi-automatic gun. —————-quote

          Your a God damn Liar and any search on this forum about my posts prove it. Really are you that dumb that you do not think this can easily be disproved. Perhaps “Crazy” would be a better term to describe you.

        5. avatar cisco kid says:

          to tiddle Brain

          quote———————He just brought up Japan’s gun laws again and is silent about you proving him wrong about the requirement to locking back the slide on the Sig.—————–quote.

          Chris was speaking about the Sig 226 and here is the video proving him wrong

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svEgvxua7qc

          NOW TIDDLE BRAIN WHAT PART OF T HIS VIDEO DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND??????

        6. avatar cisco kid says:

          TO CC

          QUOTE———————-I still am waiting for your reply to my numbers on suicide+homicide in Japan which you claimed was lower than the US — when I gave the WHO number showing it is higher than the US. Do you deny writing that the US should have Japans gun laws?—————————–QUOTE

          Well here it is LIAR as Japans murder rate is 26 times lower than the U.S. as well as other stats showing how much more dangerous a country the U.S. is compared to other nations.

          And to answer your other question HERE IS WHAT I ACTUALLY SAID NOT THE WAY YOU HAVE TRIED TO LIE ABOUT MY STATEMENTS.

          Japan has a superior vetting system to keep criminals and nut cases from purchasing guns. Should we adopt this. Only A MORON LIKE YOURSELF would disagree and Japans safe storage laws are a SUPERIOR way of keeping children from being accidentally killed by unattended firearms. All of this is long overdue as not only Japan but many European Nations all have similar safe storage laws and vetting laws. Only in the U.S. can any criminal or nut case buy all the heavy weapons and firepower he wants any time of the day 365 days a year and twice on Sunday. Its pure lunacy. AND ONLY IN THE U.S. do 1,300 children get killed by unattended firearms laying round the house.

          http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Japan/United-States/Crime/Violent-crime

        7. avatar cisco kid says:

          Reply to CC

          quote————————Your friends carry loaded chambered upholstered guns in their back pockets and that is your example of blaming a gun design for an ND?——————quote

          Spoken like a true genius Hill Jack (sarcasm). You cannot see the forest for the trees. Get out of the out house and realize that safer designed guns do not go off in your pocket like the striker fired guns without manual safeties do. Even an IDIOT can understand this.

          Ok Moron how could a 1911 with the hammer down go off in a pocket or in a waist ban. ANSWER THEY DO NOT. And by the way Genius I used to carry single action autos with the hammer down just this way and after 54 years never had an accidental discharge. I experimented with an EMPTY GLOCK but A COCKED GLOCK in the pocket, and in the waist band and each and every time the STRIKER TRIPPED OFF. NOW WHAT PART OF THIS DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND???????

          And by the way the traditional long stroke double action autos are way less likely to go off in a pocket even with the safety off but most do have safeties like the Wather PPK giving you yet one more safety device to prevent you shooting your self. No such option is available in the safety less striker fired guns that DO INDEED GO OFF in pockets and holsters and waist bands. NOW AGAIN MORON WHAT PART OF THIS DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND???????

        8. avatar CC says:

          Japan has a higher rate of violent death than the US. so how is that “superior system” where you have no right to a gun at all legal in the US?

          Japanese people have way less rights also. The government has much broader wiretap privileges, habeas is not the same, double jeopardy is allowed, warrants are easier to get and evidence not on warrants is allowed — and what would be unconistutional stop and frisk is allowed. Freedom of the press is much lower. You have to show your ID on the streets in Japan even if there is no reasonable suspicion or probable cause to stop you.

          All that and Japan still has higher violent death rate than the US.

    2. avatar Rastan says:

      Manual safety guns have more accidents. There are a lot of theories as to why, but what counts is that as guns such as Glocks have become larger market share serious accidents have decreased.

      if you want to look at the theories as to why manual safeties have more accidents and people are thankfully moving away from them driving down accident rates, look at “risk compensation theory” as well as the “Yerkes-Dodson law.”

      Adding complexity is known to make tasks more dangerous, most markedly under stress. That is probably one part of why Glocks, and the ever increasing number of other “no-manual safety” guns are safer. Compensation theory experiments also clearly show people are more careless when working with a device with supposedly safer attributes.

      1. avatar cisco kid says:

        quote———————–Rastan says:
        June 12, 2018 at 17:01
        Manual safety guns have more accidents. There are a lot of theories as to why, but what counts is that as guns such as Glocks have become larger market share serious accidents have decreased.

        if you want to look at the theories as to why manual safeties have more accidents and people are thankfully moving away from them driving down accident rates, look at “risk compensation theory” as well as the “Yerkes-Dodson law.”

        Adding complexity is known to make tasks more dangerous, most markedly under stress. That is probably one part of why Glocks, and the ever increasing number of other “no-manual safety” guns are safer. Compensation theory experiments also clearly show people are more careless when working with a device with supposedly safer attributes.————————-quote

        THE ABOVE PARAGRAPH IS PURE BULLSHIT RIGHT FROM THE GUN INDUSTRY. If your rantings were true then we would not have back up safeties on lawn mowers, we would not have emergency stops on chain saws, we would not have safety glass in autos, anti-lock breaks, child proof safety caps, and the list goes on. Safeties save lives and they do it every day. Objects snag triggers and without a safety they go off and kill people. Children pick up guns and without a heavy double action pull or no manual safety they shoot themselves even when an adult is reaching to get the gun out of their hands. Its usually always too late before they shoot themselves. Police records prove it over and over again year after year after year. Magazine safeties have also saved lives when loading or unloading a gun or when a child finds a gun but then cannot make it work even with a round in the chamber because the magazine was removed.

        All of your above statements were 100 per cent pure bullshit. Now lets get down to real life tragedies with your infallible safe striker fired guns without manual safeties.

        HERE ARE SOME TRAGIC STORIES DOCUMENTED RIGHT OUT OF THE MAJOR GUN MAGAZINES INCLUDING GUN WEEK NOW CALLED THE GUN MAG. NOW THIS IS SOMETHING YOU CANNOT LIE YOUR WAY OUT OF OR SUGAR COAT IT WITH PROPAGANDA.

        NONE OF THESE DEATHS AND MAIMING WOULD HAVE TAKEN PLACE WITH OLDER MORE SAFER DESIGNED PISTOLS, I REPEAT NONE.

        1. Young mother shopping at store, her two year old pulls out a striker fired gun without manual safety and blows here head off. Broadcast on most of the major news networks.

        2. Young mother driving her SUV and her toddler reaches into her holster pulls out her .45 caliber Glock and shoots her in the back. No manual safety made it a certainty the gun would accidentally go off. Story ran in major newspapers and on TV.

        3. Chicago Cop comes home and undresses. He throws down his Glock on the bed and his 4 year old in a split second snatches up the Glock and accidentally blows her own head off. Never would have happened with a more safely designed gun. Incident as reported in Gun Week

        4. Cop chases drunk teenage girl across a field, trigger catches on brush and blows the girls head off. from Gun Week.

        5. Cop has ordinary traffic stop for burned out tail light bulb. Cop exists cruiser and slips and Glock goes off and shoots passenger of stopped car. Passenger cries you, why did you shoot me????? This incident was in one of the major gun mags either last summer or the one before that. If memory serves me right it was either in Guns Magazine or Gun World.

        6. Air Marshal sits down in seat plane he is supposed to protect. Glock fires off striking him in his leg.

        7. Police Chief reaches across his desk to retrieve his Glock and grabs it by the muzzle, pulls his Glock across the table and the trigger catches on an object on his desk and he shoots himself and blows his thumb off.

        8. Man gets in truck with Glock IN HIS HOLSTER, Holster is folded over and is pressing on trigger and when the man shifts his weight while seated in the truck he shoots himself (I have posted this series of pictures quite a few times.) Wound is horrendous.

        9. Today at my shooting range I run into complete stranger and he asks me if I am familiar with the Kahr pistol. I tell him yes but I do not own one. I ask some detailed questions on the trigger pull of the weapon. He responds and shows me what happened to him when the gun accidentally went off in his back pocket. It took months to heal and the pictures were horrific as shown to me via his cell phone while I am standing there talking to him. He tells me he still is in pain months after the fact. The wound had to be packed and repacked daily by his wife with gauze so the wound would heal from the inside out. He tells me the pain of inserting and removing the gauze every day was horrendous. He has doubts if it will ever completely heal

        7. I saw a program on Cable where they interviewed a girl who competed in fast draw contests. Her glock 40 cal. while still in its holster went off completely destroying her leg as the bullet when from her hip down through her leg and still blew off part of her foot. Many painful surgeries later she admits she will be crippled for life and realizes there will never be a complete recovery because of all the horrific and devastating damage to her entire leg and foot,

        So as you can see all of your ramblings, propaganda and out right lies are not only an outrageous piece of propaganda but you because of your lies about striker pistols without manual safeties being safe to use you may convince people who are not familiar with how dangerous these pistols are that you may just convince them there is no danger in owning one or handling one and due to your outright lies result in innocent people getting themselves or others killed or maimed for life when handling these very dangerously designed pistols.

        Of course you have no conscience , people like you are so arrogant and narcissistic that your ego comes first and human life second.

        If you really believe what you say you are a Moron and if you do not believe what you are saying you are obviously working for the Firearms industry where often corporate greed rules and human life often has no value.

        1. avatar CC says:

          I checked two of the anecdotes you gave were even clocks. Air marshal was not a Glock I see about 3 times as many non glock, including many guns that have safeties.

          As far as you saying we need to have Japan’s laws which explicitly state “no one has a right to firearms.”

          It is good to see you come out and admit you are for bans and confiscation of even basic self defense firearms.

          Why not just come out and say you are to the left of Bloomberg and Shannon Watts on gun control?

  24. avatar Ken Forbus says:

    The highest time period for ND’s for NYPD was around 2004. 28 in one year, it got to as low as 14 and is currently running around 15 to 18 a year since then.

    They were allowed to carry revolvers,DAO Sig’s, SW and Glock’s. As of later this year it will be mandatory to be all Glock 17 and 19’s. That’s a pool of about 45,000 police officers that fire 10.5 million rounds a year in training.

    So the whole unsafe Glock pistol thing is a myth. Negligence and complacency are the two biggest areas no matter what you are toting.

    Always keep the muzzle in a safe direction.

  25. avatar Lon Loren says:

    Did Chris graduate magnum come loaded?

  26. avatar Ken Forbus says:

    Regardless of which gun you carry or handle, if there is a negligent, accidental, or what ever your calling it, if the muzzle is in a safe direction no harm. If you are drawing, condition checking, clearing, or what ever you’re doing muzzle control is always paramount. Sig, Glock, S&W or Hi Point the muzzle must always be pointed in a safe direction.

  27. avatar Ken Forbus says:

    Disagree, I have carried a 226 appendix for 4 years and have no issues doing it. I just finished a week long class and fired 2500 rounds that week with zero malfunctions. The slides lock back or don’t because of grip. It’s not the gun.

    1. avatar CC says:

      Cisco has posts on thetruthaboutguns saying we need Japan’s gun laws. So you would not be carrying under his “safe gun only” nor would you have any handgun at all!

      P226 is a great gun, so are all Glocks and 90% of guns out there. But a lot of people would not choose to carry a p226 concealed as optimal. I’m 5’11 and 160 lbs and except in winter I will stick with my P365 (OMG no safety!) which just replaced my G43.

      1. avatar cisco kid says:

        TO CC

        Quote————————-Cisco has posts on thetruthaboutguns saying we need Japan’s gun laws. So you would not be carrying under his “safe gun only” nor would you have any handgun at all!————————–quote

        READING COMPREHENSION, READING COMPREHENSION.
        I never once said I believed in a ban on handguns in the U.S. WHAT I DID SAY WAS THIS. That Japan has a very good and superior vetting procedure and safe storage laws that have worked very well in keeping guns out of the hands of lunatics and criminals and they have a very low accidental death rate of children getting their hands on guns and killing themselves. It is their laws that bans handguns and I am not responsible for that law nor have I ever said I agreed with that law. AGAIN READING COMPREHENSION,

        1. avatar Toni says:

          Geez CK you getting your knickers in a twist. maybe your lies are catching you out. i remember a number of times you have quite clearly stated that you wish the laws were far stricter up to and including as strict as japan, and that is in the short time i have been on here compared to many others. if you are indeed a gun owner then you are a traitor to gun owners the world over and to the natural right to defend yourself against any who would violate your person be that govt or civilian

        2. avatar cisco kid says:

          to Toni Baloney

          QUOTE—————–
          Geez CK you getting your knickers in a twist. maybe your lies are catching you out. i remember a number of times you have quite clearly stated that you wish the laws were far stricter up to and including as strict as japan, and that is in the short time i have been on here compared to many others. if you are indeed a gun owner then you are a traitor to gun owners the world over and to the natural right to defend yourself against any who would violate your person be that govt or civilian——————-QUOTE

          Look you Moron how does wanting to prevent needless deaths of children through safe storage laws (just like Japan and European Countries) or making it a lot tougher for criminals to steal weapons or preventing nut cases from getting guns equate to being a traitor to all gun owners????????? You need to THINK ABOUT WHAT I HAVE SAID. not go off on a non-nonsensical rant that makes sense only to a raving maniac.

          And by the way Jethro I never stated I did not believe that a person did not have the right to self defense.

        3. avatar CC says:

          Japan has more violent death than the US, not less.
          It’s combined suicide and homicide rate are not lower, but much higher than the US per capita.

          Are you really going to continue to insist jumping in front of a train or from a building is less violent than suicide by gunshot?

          You are deeply ignorant and now you have proved you also don’t know much about other coutnries as well. In Japan there is no inherent right to own a firearm at all.

        4. avatar tdiinva says:

          CC:

          Japan had a category called family suicides because someone who murders his family would dishonor the family name. What we would call a murder-suicide gets classified as all suicides. An apples-to-apples comparison would show Japan to have a much higher murder rate and a correspondingly lower suicide rate. In Japan you are much more likely to be murdered by your father or husband than by a stranger but CK doesn’t care since the primary method used for family suicide is insecticide or similar poison and not a gun.

        5. avatar CC says:

          Japan has more accidents per civilian self defense firearm than the US has.
          Japan has more accidents per carried civilian pistol than the US has

          so what more proof does one need that Japan is precisely not the country to follow?

        6. avatar CC says:

          Crisco;
          Japan has more accidents per civilian self defense firearm than the US has.
          Japan has more accidents per carried civilian pistol than the US has

          so what more proof does one need that Japan is precisely not the country to follow?

  28. avatar cisco kid says:

    to Tiddle brain

    quote—————————-Crisco, looks like a Sig owner just confirmed my conjecture. So who looks like a moron now?——————quote

    No your both Morons as he admitted HE DID INDEED HAVE TO PULL THE SLIDE BACK TO ACTIVATE THE TAKE DOWN LEVER making it impossible to accidentally shoot yourself as you can with the Glock. NOW WHAT PART OF THIS DO YOU BOTH NOT UNDERSTAND. And by the way all 3 of my Sigs have to have the slide ALL THE WAY BACK.

    1. avatar CC says:

      I doubt someone who advocates Japan gun laws and Australia failed mass confiscation of such guns, who call semi auto firearms “weapons of war” has a Sig.

    2. avatar tdiinva says:

      Moving the goal posts are you? You claimed he had to lock the slide back. CC proved you didn’t. You don’t know what you are talking about. You simply watched a YouTube video that claimed recommended way was the only way. If you pushed the slide only back far enough to push down the takefown lever it wouldn’t eject a chambered cartridge.

      And I see the TTAG editorial staff didn’t like my post about you. I suggest they do a little background work. Everybody has tells when they post. You are readily identiable as a Disqus troll who operates under a variety of names.

  29. avatar Lon Loren says:

    I have been using 1911 colts for ever. The series 70 has five safety s One hundred year old design except series eighty. They are dis-connector, slide stop, thumb safety, grip safety,
    half cock. Finely we come to the series eighty that has a firing pin block that dis engages when the TRIGGER IS PULLED!! When you have a mechanical fault with these or any other gun they can go off. Keep muzzle in safe direction. Guns are simple machines. You pull the trigger with your finger you can expect the weapon to fire.

  30. avatar ROBERT says:

    Well, we all just “KNOW” that trained professionals just NEVER have a ND. Just look at the FBI.

  31. avatar TomC says:

    There are two kinds of gun writers: Those who make stupid generalizations and those who make up generalizations to excuse their own mistakes.

    I’m not sure which category Jeff falls in (although I have my suspicions).

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