Republished with Colion Noir’s permission from twitlonger.com.

“What the fuck! What the fuck! What the fuck!” We were four black teens in a shitty station wagon looking for a place to play basketball until we realized we were lost. All I can hear is my best friend in the backseat yelling over and over again, “What the fuck! What the fuck! What the fuck!” and the cop outside of the station wagon with his gun pointed directly at me yelling, “Don’t fucking move, roll the window down, don’t fucking move!”

We pulled up next to a parked cop car to ask him for directions. When we realized there was no one in the car, we reversed to leave, but before my friend could put the vehicle in drive, a cop jumps out of a van next to the police car with his gun pointed right at me.

To this day I still feel a little guilty about the relief I felt when the cop made his way from my side to the driver side of the car and pointed the gun inches away from my friends head instead of mine.

My friend’s eyes were closed, and his hands were straight up. I could see the gun inches from his temple. My friend rambled, “we’re lost, we’re lost, directions, directions, we just wanted directions.” My friend in the back seat was still yelling. I just stared at the gun waiting for my life to change forever.

Eventually, everything was sorted out, but the whole ordeal messed me up. We were good kids who never got in any trouble. All we wanted to do was ask for directions. I couldn’t understand why the cop felt so threatened by us.

I remember asking myself, if we were four white teens would he have acted the same way? I don’t know, but the fact that I have to ask that question at such an age should tell you something.

I despise race baiting. Race baiting cheapens and undermines every legitimate cry of racial injustice and breeds a sense of apathy in people who would otherwise be sympathetic to such cries but feel the discussion of race is a zero-sum game they can never win.

However, there is also a problem with some people in this country dismissing racism wholesale when it isn’t overt racial slurs or crosses burning on front lawns. Covert racism is a real thing and is very dangerous. Covert racism works the same way anti-gunners use coded language to push gun control. They say common sense gun measures, but we know what they really mean.

We gun advocates spend our time trying to prove to the people that they don’t just want background checks they want to ban guns. The problem is, they don’t come right out and say,”give me all your guns” so no one believes us, but we know the effects are incredibly real. That’s what covert racism is and does.

In the case of officer Jeronimo Yanez, I don’t feel he woke up that day wanting to shoot a black person. However, I keep asking myself, would he have done the same thing if Philando were white? As I put on my Monday morning quarterback Jersey, it is my opinion that Philando Castile should be alive today.

I believe there was a better way to handle the initial stop. If he suspected Philando was a suspect in a robbery, there were ways to conduct that stop in a way that would have completely avoided the shooting altogether, but Yanez neglected to do so.

Beyond that point, things get a little fuzzy for me. Other than Yanez’s testimony, there is nothing I read about the trial or any newly revealed facts to suggest that Philando was going for his gun.

However, I don’t know what Yanez saw that made him think Philando was going for the gun, I wasn’t there, and I only have his words to go by. Sadly, Philando isn’t here to tell us other than his last dying statement of, “I wasn’t reaching for it”.

Personally, I feel because Yanez pulled Philando over under the suspicion that he was a robbery suspect coupled with the presence of a gun, it put Yanez in a heightened state. I feel he lost control of his wits and overreacted. This now brings me to the question of race.

Do I think Yanez felt threatened by the fact that Philando was black? It’s very possible Yanez was indifferent about Philando’s race. However, because of the negative stereotype reinforced in the media about black men and guns, it wouldn’t completely surprise me if Yanez felt more threatened by Philando because he was black. This is the same negative stereotype that I’ve been trying to combat for years now.

Legally, I’m left asking myself, was Yanez failing to conduct a proper felony stop reckless or negligent enough to warrant a Second Degree Manslaughter conviction? As a lawyer, I’m hard pressed to think so. But the young black male in me says hell yes.

Admittedly, I don’t have all the facts the jury had; I didn’t hear the testimony the jury heard. Maybe after hearing his testimony they believe Yanez honestly felt his life was in danger and justifiably so. However, I have to be honest and say, he shouldn’t be able to just walk away freely without legal consequence I just don’t know what that consequence should be.

I so badly wanted to keep race out of this. There are so many professional race baiters who thrive on and become rich from increasing the racial divide in this country. Because of this racial opportunism, it makes it hard to call out the more insidious elements of racism in this country vs. the isolated incidences where race doesn’t play a factor.

Then again, considering other examples where “race” was legitimately a factor In previous shootings, I think it would be irresponsible not to consider race as a possible motive in this shooting.

All that being said, Philando Should be alive today. In my eyes, Yanez screwed up big time. I don’t feel he was out to take a black life that day, but it doesn’t matter because his actions cost Phliando his life. My legal mind can see why they couldn’t get to Manslaughter in the Second Degree based solely on the facts at hand, but Yanez walking away from this case a free and clear man is just wrong.

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253 Responses to Colion Noir: Philando Castile Should Be Alive Today

  1. >>“Don’t fucking move, roll the window down, don’t fucking move!”

    If he moves to roll down the window, shoot him. He didn’t follow directions.

    If he doesn’t roll down the window, shoot him. He didn’t follow directions.

    Fully justified shooting in either case.

    Yes, sarcasam.

    Conflicting orders from the police should at least be mentioned in any self-defense class. It gets worse when they’re multiple officers yelling conflicting orders.

    O2

    • The biggest training failure in policing today is training cops to avoid conflicting commands. Slow down and think, Don’t move -pause, pause, check for compliance- next command – slowly roll your window down with your left hand -pause,pause, check for compliance, etc.

      • Not just conflicting commands, but commands virtually guaranteed to CREATE the need for a split second, life or death decision.

        The cop who shot Levar Jones ORDERED him to do precisely that for which he was shot. There was no “conflict”. Jones COMPLIED… TO THE LETTER. He was almost killed for it.

      • Yes, I whole-heartedly believe what you said. The communication skills police are trained in seem woefully inadequate. Also, police are trained that EVERYONE is dangerous until proven otherwise. Combine those two things, and disasters are bound to happen sometimes.

        • “Also, police are trained that EVERYONE is dangerous until proven otherwise.”

          Believe me, these days the feeling is entirely mutual.

          Just watch the video of the Levar Jones shooting a few times.

      • Yes, that’s a big part of the tactical police training problem. ‘Communication’. That and a blurred psychology of what exactly constitutes a critical danger to yourself as a police officer when confronting Citizens based on a pre-conceived notion of what you ‘believe/think/assume will happen, instead of controlling
        the scene. Police must be de-trained that every traffic stop issue can be resolved completely I the officer’s favor by simple entering a state of mind where the ‘fear for their lives’ for some abstract logic, and therefore are allowed simply kill the person.

        After investigating these kinds of police shootings in departmental follow-ups for several years in a long career as an LEO in major metropolitan venues, I’ve come to my own opinion that racism is not the most profound issue in play here. Unless it sometimes adds to the officer’s flawed emotional content which overpowers a supposedly trained discipline to minimalize a potential over reaction and erroneously perceived situation. But a bad cop performing worse police work doesn’t care that much who it is. S/he perceives ANYONE not wearing a badge as an enemy.

        Also the nature of the job description has changed due to government control necessities to enhance totalitarian social control over the masses. Back in the old law enforcement paradigm, the only time officers were supposed to consider deadly force in a non active shooter situation, EVEN If someone had a weapon that could potentially be used against the officer in an attack, was when the officer was in the process of being attacked. Which never was a subjective ‘belief’. But an actual objective analysis of deleterious action.. the subject was not automaticallyo immediately summarily executed for the ‘potential’ of action.

        The idea was that deadly force was ‘justifiable’ only if there was an ‘overt’ action or movement that signaled imminent UNAVOIDABLE (key concept) danger to the officer from the subject. A REAL overt movement/threat/danger, like pulling a gun and pointing/firing/etc. (And even in that exact scenario, there’s an element of compassionate discretion that a prudent cop would be morally obligated to analyze. It’s a thin discretionary line between ‘active shooting’ and suicide by police, or some unfortunate fellow human behaving strange and in a potentially dangerous manner.

        And you had to SEE a real gun, not wallet, cellphone, pocket comb, or anything else that might ‘appear’ to be a gun, but was not. THAT…is the risk officers get paid for as part of the job. Whereas an average citizen would do everything possible to maximize avoidance of such a situation and retreat, a cop is getting paid to engage and investigate. However, he ALWAYS has the discretionary power to fall back and de-escalate for the common good or safety.

        And S/he’s supposed to be TRAINED adequately enough to minimize escalation in the first place, and emphasize de-escalation to resolve the situation at hand without facilitating ‘friendly fire’ casualties. That’s how you continue to do your job and not make a potentially dangerous situation more dangerous. What if a kid in the back seat was hit like in the case now being tried in another state with another failed example of proper police work? Would the officer who killed Castille still be justified for ‘firing’ even though he was supposedly in fear of his life?

        That’s like saying, ‘yup, if I’m a cop, I can gun down as many people in a group/crowd as I want as long as the subject i’m shooting at convinces ME (never mind a jury of my peers) that my life is in danger.

        If I was in this situation, which I was countless times, I would have immediately told him to FREEZE and don’t pull it out or move until I tell you to. as I quickly backed around to the rear of his car, I or my partner might start yelling ‘put your hands on the steering wheel where I can see them’ as soon as he mentioned he had a gun and moved to a point behind his car, or the police car. (all in less than a second, which meant that if he was, indeed, going for the gun to draw, and now engage in a time consuming turn, point, and fire, after I gave him the command. I would already be out of direct line of fire and behind some concealment and cover. I or my partner would be able to observe any major AGGRESSIVE move with a pistol with plenty of time to react. Pulling the gun out of his pocket or waistband and throwing it down on the car floor does NOT constitute an imminent threat of danger and can actually be argued to be positive compliance of ‘dropping the gun’ in that now he is unarmed.

        Personally I, and most cops, certainly wouldn’t stand there displaying full frontal cm at his driver’s side window? How stupid and dangerous is that for a supposedly trained mentally sharp cop? First of all, He was talking first and any experienced cop in full presence of mind would have sensed by his tone that he was just nervous because he was a black man carrying a gun. But if he was really dangerous and determined to ‘get away’ using his gun if necessary, why would he tell the officer he had a gun in the first place. He’d just pull and start blasting? Was it a ‘must notify’ during a traffic stop State law that you’re carrying concealed?

        But If the thought crossed my mind that he ‘might’ be about to draw after he said that, there was plenty of time to remove myself from ‘potential’ not imminent harm which actually never existed at any point before the officer commenced firing without having a clear visual of the gun pointing at him. There was still time for alternative tactics that preclude the immediate use of Deadly Force.

        In countless engagements like this I never had to summarily execute l a homeless combat vet with severe PTSD just because he wouldn’t obey my GAWD Almighty orders to ‘drop the knife’ ? or a gun down a mentally ill pregnant woman who was holding a knife and wouldn’t immediately drop it! I would have simple ‘taken or knocked it away from her! Or use a terrorist vehicle style assault approach with the squad car on a teenager in a park playground who was waving an air soft pistol but not shooting at anyone with it. but immediately shooting him VIRTUALLY SIMULTANEOUSLY as you screamed drop the gun! When all you’d have to do is first stay far enough away out of the line of fire with the squad car and communicate with your loud speaker to see what the situation is BEFORE any shooting starts, by anybody?

        Christ, we always had kids ‘playing guns’ and pointing realistic looking toy pistols at us all the time on those summer days when kids didn’t have smartphones to pollute their minds. If we had time to waste we’d simply pull over to them and teach them not to point guns at police, even if they were just playing, because we were the good guys. But maybe not anymore if we don’t find quick cure to this ‘police state’ cancer in society. All in the absurd justification of an inordinate socially brainwashed fear of guns integrated with a so-called War on Drugs and Domestic Terrorism.

        I suspect that the prosecutors in this case were not that ‘enthused’ about prosecuting a cop in their venue. Otherwise he should have been found guilty of reckless endangerment and involuntary manslaughter.

        This cop was entirely too nervous/pumped/and out of professional control to be conducting safe police work. I’ve seen this many times before. I’m sorry officer Y, but you did fuck up. And don’t all you police sycophants frog jump to the specious suck-ass defense of all cops who simply can never do wrong. I always ask cops how would they like it if it was their son or daughter or brother or sister instead of the guy this officer killed? Would it be A-Okay then, asshole?

        And don’t give me any sophomoric bullshit about a few bad apples spoiling the whole barrel. There are way, WAY too many incidents like this which means there are far too many ‘rotten apple cops’ than there should be. And what makes that worse, is the abject apathy and willingness to look the other way, by other cops which essentially feeds the problem.

        Which is why–while he ‘lucked’ out on the criminal charges- the civil suit attorney will ask one question to the jury in his closing argument after She presents many similar incidents where officers in control of themselves did Not require themselves to terminate the subjects life. “Officer, let me remind you that you are under oath and ask you very seriously…
        Are you trying to tell us here that there was absolutely no other discretionary tactic you could have used from all your training and experience to instantly extricate yourself from POTENTIAL imminent danger- before or while you were still yelling at the subject– besides pulling your gun and threatening Mr. Castile who did not even appear nor sound violent or threatening?

        Because after all you never saw a gun, you only ‘thought’ he reached for it but were not clear about it from your previous testimony? I mean couldn’t you have just instantly backed off out of line of fire and dashed behind some concealment and cover and try an alternate strategy besides opening fire too prematurely and killing a human being and recklessly endangering other innocent passengers in the vehicle? Are you really trying to tell us that that there was no way you could do something ‘less-than-lethal’ BEFORE you drew your gun that would have worked to stop whatever movement you perceived to be so threatening to avoid killing someone while you continue your investigation, Officer?”

        Unfortunately Far too many cops are ‘tolerated’ in their flawed emotional development because of the ‘need’ for them to be that way to instill fear for unquestioned compliance in a totalitarian agenda.

        We have to take back control of the laws, people. Before it’s too late.

    • Yup. “Don’t fucking move, roll the window down, don’t fucking move!”
      Sounds a whole lot like “show me your ID, don’t reach for your gun don’t reach for your gun” to me.
      The reality is that we, and I mean we, not just police officers, can use the threat of deadly force to put people into situations that are unwinnable. Situations where is it extremely difficult to walk away from. I have no reason to believe that Officer Yanez was racist in any way. But anyone can see that there were other options available to him, and his fear may have prevented him from thinking clearly through those options.
      On the side of Mr. Castile, I’m willing to bet the justified fear for his life made unable to think that while he was trying to get his ID, the officer might see that as him trying to get a gun.
      We need to remember that. Fear makes people do stupid shit. Don’t scare people.

      • I don’t really see the point of your comment outside of LEO’s. As a non-LEO, why would I be in a position to “scare” someone. In other words, what’s this “we” stuff? I suspect the answer is you have a whole lot more possible “scenarios” in your life than I do.

        • By pointing a gun at someone when you aren’t 100% sure they are a threat. People do that often. People on this site have commented that if they even think someone might be a threat, their gun is out. You’ve said that just showing a gun will make groups of thugs flee.
          Unless they weren’t thugs, and you read that all wrong. Now you’ve made them think you are the threat, and people don’t respond rationally when they are afraid. Back people into a corner and sometimes they submit, and sometimes they attack.

        • “Drugs made him do stupid shite. Don’t do drugs.”

          Don’t do stupid shite, in places where stupid shites are doing stupid shite, winning stupid shite prizes.

    • Yup, conflicting orders are actually pretty scary. I’ve actually had the unfortunate luck to have this happen to me just by virtue of walking through an area the cops were responding to.

      My reaction was to put my hands up and stand there not moving with dumbass look on my face thinking I was about to get shot or that the closest cop was going to butt stroke me with his 870.

      I understand that the cops were responding to a report of a shooting (I didn’t at the time have a clue WTF was going on) but the chaotic way the police rolled up, in force, and pointed guns at everyone did not impress upon me that they were organized and well trained. Hell, they almost ran their vehicles into each other at least three times as they pulled up.

      I’ve also seen this happen to other people and thought “Christ, he CAN’T comply with them all, they’re gonna light his ass up”.

    • I don’t recall where I heard this first but it makes great sense to me.

      If ordered by an officer to do an action, repeat it in the affirmative:

      “OK, I am going to roll down my window now”
      “OK, I am going to get out of the vehicle slowly”
      “OK, I am going to go down onto my knees now”

      This is especially important when multiple officers might be yelling different commands. Try to make it clearer than clear what YOUR response to the commands will be. It might, perhaps, avoid a “surprise” action (that you were just ordered to do!) that would literally trigger a response.

        • Yes, but what Castile said he was doing conflicted with what he was actually doing. If an officer tells you not do a thing, you need to immediately stop what you’re doing

        • The reason the officer bears responsibility is that he should have ordered him to do a thing, not to not do a thing. “Give me your license.” “I have a gun.” “Don’t grab your gun.” He introduced confusion into the situation. It should have been something like “Give me your license.” “I have a gun.” “Place your hands on the steering wheel.”

          I’m not saying Yanez bears all of the responsibility. Castile bears a good deal of it. Who bears how much and what should be done about it requires a careful examination of all the evidence available and is what our justice system is set up to do.

    • Watching the various videos of this shooting, left me deeply suspicious of what actually happened. It’s obvious that beat cops have learned, or been taught, to make sure they are the persons defining contact situations. This is called “dramaturgy” and involves various strategies, among them using a “command voice” to dominate the other person. So, in this video, we hear office Yanez repeatedly telling Philando to stop reaching for his gun. Was he really reaching for his gun? We’ll never know but what we have is a police officer loudly proclaiming that he is. If you watch enough cop videos, you’ll easily discover that this is a common police tactic. While it can be used for good, it is also used for evil—like the video where the Califa cop beats a mentally challenged man to death, all the while shouting at him to “stop resisting” or the video of the New Mexico cops blowing away another deranged homeless guy on a hillside for “resisting” or something. . . With that in mind run this video again and maybe you’ll see what I’m talking about. I don’t know what was in Yanez’s mind or what he was seeing, but I do know that he knew enough to cover his ass. Even his subsequent hysterionics seem a bit feigned to me. But then, maybe that’s just me.

    • Hey black “NRA spokesman” with another imagined first name: it’s not a “stereotype” when black men make up 12% of the population, yet are responsible for 88% of the violent crime. The entire reason I conceal carry is due to all the crime that accompanied all the new black “neighbors” we have, and recently bought my first gun the day after they broke into MY HOME and robbed me.
      All this article showed me is that even the rare intelligent, well spoken, and seemingly intelligent black man I take the time to listen to is racist against non-blacks, and blames everyone else, for his culture’s history of bad decisions and total lack of responsibility.
      As a Christian (struggling), we are ALL created in God’s image, and we are instructed to treat ALL the way we want to be treated. Both principles I live my life by. But, history, statistics, nightly crime reports, and daily observations/interactions really make me question why blacks have the same problems, all over the world, yet continually to blame everyone else but themselves.

      PS
      If Philadro had just follow instructions, or even practiced BASIC common sense, he’s still be alive. He caused his own death.
      End of story.
      Anyone who brings up race in the analysis of this case, is a racist themselves.

      • Well, you’re at least spot on with the struggling Christian part. There is nothing charitable about your analysis You judged the author about assumptions on race and you’ve done the very same thing. You should have claimed you’re also a struggling logician.

        • Oh ya?
          Please edify me.
          Tell me how my “logic” is wrong?

          It’s “no assumption on race”.
          It’s the FBI crime statistics, my city’s Police daily crime reports, and what I observe with my own eyes and ears every day.

          I specifically mentioning “struggling” because there is nothing worse that the “holier than thou”. And, I would be happy to be treated myself the way I treat everyone I come in contact with, regardless of their color. Doesn’t mean that I forget those statistics or use logic in my decision making.

      • Zsa Zsa Gabor can slap a cop in the face & not get a Mag full. Mel Gibson can rewite the book on insults, yet not have a hair harmed. So when a Guy gets shot dead in front his kid over nothing…… You can take that speech and return it to sender.

        • I think that has a lot more to do with them being celebrities than anything else.

        • Using FBI reporting, Table 43 for 2011 (closest to 2010 census)….
          “Black” population was 42,020,743 (13.6% of total)
          total offenses charged 9,275,672;
          white = 6,578,133; black = 2,697,539.
          – Not getting 88% of crime, here

          percent of total offenses charged
          black – 28.4; white = 69.2
          – Not getting 88% of crime, here

          Someone needs to show us the data where 88% of crime in the US is committed by black people. Escapes me.

      • “even the rare intelligent, well spoken, and seemingly intelligent black man”

        This is not the covert racism to which the author was referring. This is overt bigotry.

    • I don’t know how else to put this. When you are stopped for any reason by a police officer, you turn on your dome light immediately upon pulling over and place your hands on the steering wheel in plain view of the officer.

      If you do this every time the chances that you get shot by a police officer during a traffic stop approach zero real damn quick.

      If you tell an officer that you have a gun, and then you make non-requested movements you are asking to be shot. The reason, is because you just moved the officer out of a safe and controllable position. When you drop the officers perception of safety below a certain threshold, he is justified in using force necessary to regain that safety.

      In this instance Castile was legally stopped, resembled a suspect description for a violent crime, informed the officer that he was in possession of a firearm, and over seven seconds ignored three commands to cease an activity that could lead to the officers death.

      I agree that Castile should be alive today, but I can’t pin all the blame on either Castile or Yanez. It’s just a bad coincidence. An overlap of conflicting ideas, responsibilities, and behaviors that led to a terminal outcome. Yanez isn’t a bad cop, he didn’t lose his head over nothing, his fear response was reasonable. Twelve jurors agree with me.

  2. A cowardly cop and a “law and order” boot licking jury will always let the perp-cop go free. In Charleston, a perp-cop murdered a man running away (unarmed) shooting him in the back multiple times. He was let go by a boot licking jury of good Germans.

    • The north Charleston shooting of Walter scott was a hung jury, so the cop wasn’t let go. That case is a clear as there can be to cold blooded murder though. Scott was 20 yards away with the first shot and running away (wanted on a warrant for failure to pay child support). The cop coldly sights him and fires over and over into Scotts back. That is as disgusting as you can get.

      The MN case is murder/manslaughter too. The cop on the passenger side of the car was the closest to Castile and he never even touched his pistol. The lack of threat was so little, the cop on the passenger side never drew, nothing. The shooting cop was terrified unjustly. That was a bad shooting and the cop should be in jail.

      • The Slager case absolutely deserved to go to trial, and IMHO Slager should be convicted of manslaughter. The problem with the first trial was over-charging (as is typical).

        • Manslaughter?

          So, you think if a non-LEO citizen was captured on tape shooting someone in the back repeatedly as the victim ran away, and then planting a weapon on the body, they would only get charged with manslaughter?

        • Yes, manslaughter would be the appropriate charge under SC statute. It was a heat-of-the-moment act, devoid of provable malice (as demonstrated by the mistrial caused by a jury hung on the matter of provable malice).

        • Manslaughter for lining up a guy and shooting him in the back 7 or 8 times while he was 20 yards away and running further away? Are you insane? That was murder. Then slager moved evidence and tried to set the scene to justify the murder.

          And Scott was wanted for a child support warrant, not murder, not rape, not anything serious.

          And slager plead guilty to murder after the mistrial, so he confessed to the facts and got 25 years (should be life or the death penalty)

        • Yes: manslaughter. Had Slager shot shot him mere seconds before, while the two were entangled in a physical struggle and Scott had possession of Slager’s Taser, it would have been a wholly justified shoot in self-defense. But Scott nanaged to disengage and flee. Slager shot him in the back mere seconds later – a use of force no longer justifiable in self-defense, but committed in the heat of the moment, with no evidence of malice.

          I, too, believe that he initially tried to move the Taser, evincing guilt – but not malice

          There was insufficient evidence to prove murder. Manslaughter would have been the appropriate charge.

        • Absolutely over-charged. The officer had a somewhat reasonable defense if he truly believed that Scott still had the Taser. In the perception of the officer, the suspect had already used the officer’s taser against him, AFTER a prolonged physical struggle AFTER a foot chase (i.e. there is no question this is a bad guy trying to get away and not just a misunderstanding) and therefore the suspect presented an immediate threat to others as he was fleeing, therefore the fleeing felon rule is relevant and deadly force could be justified. The fact that the taser was actually on the ground behind the officer, and the fact that it was a taser instead of a gun, meant that it was a hard sell to any jury.

          It just looked so bad on the edited video that everybody wanted him convicted of murder 1.

          And no, he did not attempt to plant evidence–if you watch the full video you can see him pick up the taser and put it back in his holster.

        • Chip Bennett is a lying fool for spewing that crap. no way civilian would get manslaughter for that. Nor should they,
          shooting repeatedly in the back of a fleeing unarmed man? indefensible. the fact that the shooter had a gun on him to plant was evedence of premeditation.

        • Slow down a bit, batman.

          Cops pursuing armed felons are not governed by the same law of “disengagement” that non-police gun holders are. In some places, police are definitely authorized to shoot at fleeing felons in order to facilitate arrest, or removal of potential threat to the public. Tactically, just because a fleeing felon tosses one gun, would you bet your life he/she doesn’t have another one?

        • In some situations, average citizens are authorized to shoot fleeing felons. (I generally advise against it).

        • “In some situations, average citizens are authorized to shoot fleeing felons. (I generally advise against it).”

          New information. I was not aware. Figured citizens were prohibited from shooting after “disengagement”, everywhere.

          Thanks.

        • Sec. 9.42(2)(B) covers the fleeing part. A citizen would still need Secs. 9.42(s) and 9.42(3). The main reason I don’t recommend it is because I believe the average person would too easily be confused by all the requirements. I mean theft, but only during the nighttime?

          Sec. 9.42. DEADLY FORCE TO PROTECT PROPERTY. A person is justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or tangible, movable property:
          (1) if he would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.41*; and
          (2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary:
          (A) to prevent the other’s imminent commission of arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime; or
          (B) to prevent the other who is fleeing immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the property; and
          (3) he reasonably believes that:
          (A) the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by any other means; or
          (B) the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.

          *Sec. 9.41. PROTECTION OF ONE’S OWN PROPERTY. (a) A person in lawful possession of land or tangible, movable property is justified in using force against another when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to prevent or terminate the other’s trespass on the land or unlawful interference with the property.
          (b) A person unlawfully dispossessed of land or tangible, movable property by another is justified in using force against the other when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to reenter the land or recover the property if the actor uses the force immediately or in fresh pursuit after the dispossession and:
          (1) the actor reasonably believes the other had no claim of right when he dispossessed the actor; or
          (2) the other accomplished the dispossession by using force, threat, or fraud against the actor.

        • Chip Bennett is a lying fool for spewing that crap. no way civilian would get manslaughter for that. Nor should they,
          shooting repeatedly in the back of a fleeing unarmed man? indefensible. the fact that the shooter had a gun on him to plant was evidence of premeditation.

        • miforest, you are missing critical information. Don’t you look at that story and think “something doesn’t make sense here?” Either that officer just snapped and decided “this guy needs to die and I’m going to kill him” or there’s more to the story… Go learn about the Fleeing Felon Rule:

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fleeing_felon_rule

          For legal purposes, this officer did not shoot an unarmed fleeing man in the back. From his perception, he was shooting a suspect who had just fled from a traffic stop, physically struggled with the officer for an extended period of time, took the officer’s Taser away from him and used it on the officer, and then was fleeing with the Taser. I’ll quote from the court case:

          “Where the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a threat of serious physical harm, either to the officer or to others, it is not constitutionally unreasonable to prevent escape by using deadly force.”

          So tell me… if the suspect really had the Taser as he fled, do you think that would meet the standard of the law? The only problem is that the suspect had dropped the Taser and it was on the ground but the officer didn’t see it as his focus was on the fleeing suspect.

          And no, he didn’t “have a gun to plant” and he didn’t plant a gun. If you watch the whole video you can clearly see him walk back and pick up the taser, hold it for a bit, drop it on the ground at one point, then pick it up and put it back in the holster. All completely consistent with a guy with adrenalin pumping trying to decide what to do next, not an attempt to plant evidence.

          You can see a comprehensive analysis of the available evidence here: https://theconservativetreehouse.com/2016/07/03/walter-scott-shooting-canadian-documentary-filmmaker-video-almost-identical-to-year-old-cth-report/

          And no, he did not plead guilty to murder–he pled guilty to federal civil rights charges.

      • Maybe I watched the wrong video. The one I watched clearly shows Castile in the driver’s seat. It would be a neat trick for the cop on the passenger side to be closest.

        • It’s a common misconception.

          Castile’s passenger was using the selfe side of her phone, meaning that the video was a mirror image of reality.

          Despite the steering wheel clearly being on Castile’s side of the car, any number of people routinely believe he was on the passenger side.

  3. What we have today is a confluence of sociopathic narratives.

    On the one hand, we have Black Lives Matter who believe that young, Black, male felons should be an unaccountable caste above the rest of society. To them, Michael Brown (and the Somali jihadi who ran over and tried to knife students at Ohio State) have a RIGHT to rob and murder. Anyone who disagrees is a “racist”.

    On the other, we have the police unions and their enablers who believe that ANYTHING a cop does is not just “justified”, but “HEROIC”, from drunkenly trying to kick a barmaid to death, to ineptly shooting a mental health technician while trying to slaughter an autistic young man playing with a toy truck. Anyone who disagrees is a “cop hater”.

    The students at Ohio State, the cops in Dallas, Darren Wilson, Margie Carranza, Emma Hernandez, David Perdue, and Akai Gurley? They’re just “collateral damage”.

    The sociopaths have rushed the stage and forced the normal people off. The FOP and Black Lives Matter are perfect photographic negatives of each other. Only those within their respective magic chalk circles differ.

    • It’s almost as if there is an argument for a group of sane, responsible people who distance themselves from this violence and look out for one another…

    • “The sociopaths have rushed the stage and forced the normal people off. The FOP and Black Lives Matter are perfect photographic negatives of each other.”

      *slow clap*
      You have perfectly captured it sir. Loonies from each fringe fighting violently to pull the normal people away from normalcy.

    • What we have today is a confluence of sociopathic narratives.

      Oh, how true this is. I wish it were not… but there is increasingly no way to argue otherwise. And… It isn’t just criminals and law enforcement – the sociopaths seem to be “rushing the stage” (as you put it later) from every conceivable angle. The majority of us are left in a rapidly shrinking island of sanity asking “What the hell is going on?” at the same time we’re trying to fend these clowns off.

      • It’s what _I_ am saying.

        I have equal measures of contempt for Michael Brown and the Atlanta cops who murdered Kathryn Johnston.

        I have equal measures of contempt for Black Lies Matter and the Fraternal Order of Police. They differ only in the group membership of the violent sociopaths whom they enable.

  4. The fact that every cop knows he can kill you and get away with it leads many people to believe that today you are way more likely to be killed by a cop because you are “legally” carrying a gun than if you go about disarmed and risk getting killed by a criminal which in most areas of the U.S. is way less likely.

    There was also the incident where a black man was legally carrying while shopping A female employee clerk saw the imprint of his gun and called the cops who in turn just gunned the man down as he left the shopping store.

    • If I’m not mistaken, he wasn’t carrying a concealed firearm, but was instead looking at a pellet gun in the sporting goods department when he was shot and killed by police.

      • I don’t know if that’s the video I saw, but if it is, he had a pellet gun that did look like a rifle and was aiming it at other shoppers before the police got there. When he didn’t drop it, and in fact turned it toward the police, he was shot. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

      • That was a different incident altogether. It took place in Ohio. As you can see if a cop knows you have a gun, even if it is completely legal you stand a very good chance of being shot on the spot and the cop will simply scream, “I thought my life was in danger, end of case, you lose.

      • That was a different one. ‘bad’ police shootings occur far more often than people realize because as much as they can before public scrutiny intervenes…they try to cover it up at the scene itself. And since many of the 1000. or more police ‘questionable’ shootings of citizens in NON Active shooting and NON criminal engagements every year and climbing are not even reported correctly and therefore not in the MSM, unless witnessed by others civilians, the police state mentality continues its deadly corrupted epidemic.

        Remember, cops come from the same degenerative social gene pool as criminals and the rest of us. There is NO sacrosanct special qualification to maintain that a cop remains at a higher level of training, compassion, or correct psychological emotional content.

        It used to be a self-‘policed’ (if you will) type of organizational control back in the days when most cops actually realized that their job description meant that they were a Public Servant getting PAID to serve and protect the citizens who pay them… again–To Serve And Protect the citizens NOT to do Search and Destroy as if they were enemy invaders?

        And of course, this all is caused by the rise of Big Totalitarian government, which requires such a police state paradigm to eventually enact complete monetary enslavement control and eliminate all potential for collective physical resistance from the citizens.

        The longer we all lapse into cognitive paralysis and denial, the worse it gets. If we are not all actively demanding accountability from our legislators as to why these pragmatically useless anti-Constitutional gun laws and privacy invasion War on Drugs are not repealed to prevent further growth of an already out of control police state mentality,

        the easier we will make it for them to enslave us.

        • Want to see how evil a cop can be? Question his athority. This is how 69 year old grandmothers get body slammed to the concrete curbside baggage claim at an airport.

  5. If Philando Castile had been white, then he wouldn’t have matched the description of a BOLO subject suspected of armed robbery, and therefore would not have been pulled over by the police officer to investigate. Thus, the officer would not have been in the position to make a life-or-death decision about someone whom he was trying to investigate regarding alleged armed robbery, who was disregarding his instructions to keep his hands still, and was instead reaching into his pocket, while already having told the officer that he had a gun.

    Colion Noir is right about latent, covert racism still existing. But it played no part in what happened to Castile. You know what helped Noir and his friends that day? Not being high on marijuana while driving a car, and while and carrying a firearm.

    It wasn’t Castile’s fault that another black man committed an armed robbery in the vicinity. It also wasn’t Castile’s fault that he bore some resemblance to that armed robber. However, it was Castile’s fault that he was too high to realize that his actions would escalate the situation, and lead to a tragic end result.

    • http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=philandro+castille+dashcam&adlt=strict&view=detail&mid=B2C1EC8769B728E37E17B2C1EC8769B728E37E17&FORM=VRDGAR
      If we watch the officer’s dashcam video, we hear that he never told Castile to keep his hands still. At no point prior to shooting him does he tell Castile to keep his hands still, put them on the dash, stay still, anything like that.
      At 1:23 he asks for his license and insurance. Castile hands him the insurance and then tells him, with obvious fear in his voice, that he has a weapon, as he is leaning over to get his wallet. Of course, the officer doesn’t know he is going to get his wallet. The officer says “dont’ reach for it”.
      He never tells him to keep his hands still. He just says “don’t reach for it”.
      Castile is still reaching for his wallet while saying “I’m not reaching for it.”.
      He’s probably too scared, or too high, or both, to understand the officer’s point of view. To him, he isn’t going for his gun, he’s going for his wallet for his license, which the officer asked for. He’s doing what the officer told him to do.
      The officer doesn’t know that, and shoots him.

      • You just explained why the officer’s actions met the reasonable man standard.

        He never tells him to keep his hands still. He just says “don’t reach for it”.

        A distinction without a difference.

        Castile is still reaching for his wallet while saying “I’m not reaching for it.”.

        A. How do you know that Castile was reaching for his wallet? How did the officer reasonably know that Castile was reaching for his wallet?

        B. Reaching for something, while saying, “I’m not reaching it,” in response to the officer saying, “Don’t reach for it,” is a recipe for exactly the disaster that happened.

        He’s probably too scared, or too high, or both, to understand the officer’s point of view.

        And that is entirely Castile’s fault, and responsibility.

        To him, he isn’t going for his gun, he’s going for his wallet for his license, which the officer asked for. He’s doing what the officer told him to do.
        The officer doesn’t know that, and shoots him.

        Because the officer doesn’t know Castile’s sate of mind, or his thought processes. And the officer isn’t responsible for knowing either. His actions only need be reasonable from his perspective, according to the circumstances, and the officer’s knowledge and experiences (i.e. the reasonable man standard).

        The shoot was tragic and unnecessary, but it was not unlawful.

        • Yep, and THAT is why, even if the substance is not dangerous, I refuse to use it. In fact, everyone who is a big fan of marijuana acts like being high all the time is THE way to go through life. Some will attack my statement and ask “do you drink alcohol”? Yes, sometimes, but I don’t drive after doing so, and does anyone still act like it’s okay to drink alcohol and drive? Not saying that some don’t drink and drive, just saying no one thinks it’s cool to do that; many think it’s perfectly okay to toke and drive. To top it off, if you are high (or drunk), should you have a firearm handy? Of course not.

        • I completely agree that it was a lawful shooting, and that it was also a tragic and unnecessary shooting.
          I can’t agree that there is a distinction without a difference in telling someone to keep still and the conflicting commands of produce your license and don’t reach for you gun. Again, Castile was complying. The officer just didn’t know that.

        • It’s a huge distinction. In the context of the conversation, “don’t reach for it” means “don’t reach for your gun”. It doesn’t mean “don’t reach for anything”. Especially given that the immediately preceding order was to produce identification. At the moment of his death, Castile was operating under two orders given to him: produce ID, and don’t reach for the gun. Taken at face value, these were not contradictory orders, and he was complying with both of them.

          And no, it’s not “entirely his responsibility”. He is a civilian unexpectedly stopped by a cop. Given the current state of affairs wrt interactions between cops and the people they supposedly “serve and protect”, It is exactly the kind of situation that elicits nervousness, especially in someone who is black and watches the news. It cannot be reasonably expected of a man in that situation to try to do anything other than literally follow the orders given to him, without trying to be “smart” in interpreting those orders (what you call “common sense”). In fact, I would argue that even that may well be too high a bar, and realistically the cops should expect to repeat the orders more than once (without yelling), and phrase them in the most clear and unambiguous way possible.

          Cops have all the advantages in such situations. They initiate the stop. When they start their workday, they know in advance that they will probably make stops today. They did many stops before, and they know how people behave during them. They have (or are supposed to have) training to deal with various corner cases during stops. Based on all this, if the stopped civilian is acting confused, the blame is squarely on the cop for not guiding the civilian properly.

          And when, because of the cop’s negligence, the situation does get to the point where there’s ambiguity and potential risk, the cop is still supposed to be cognizant of the fact that not everyone is a criminal out to get him, and that if he takes a gamble and shoots the person, there’s a good chance that he’s shooting an innocent guy. We pay police so that they would take risks on our behalf to make our lives safer – that’s the whole point! If they instead risk our lives to make theirs safer, they’re literally doing the opposite of their job.

          A cop is supposed to be a “peace officer”. Every time they kill someone who was peaceful, it represents an abject failure of the very goal of their profession.

    • Do we KNOW for a fact that Castile was CLINICALLY impaired to the point where he couldn’t obey orders?

      I hear that CLAIMED by supporters of Yanez, but then I’ve seen supporters of Tony Abbate claim that the barmaid DESERVED to be stomped and it was self-defense, and supporters of the LAPD claim that Emma Hernandez and Margie Carranza somehow ignored “commands” that were never given.

      If we’re going to take cops’ stories without question, then:
      * People on the Danziger Bridge were shooting at cops and helicopters.
      * Kathryn Johnston was a drug dealing wouldbe cop killer.
      * Karolina Obrycka tossed Tony Abbate around “like a rag doll”.
      * Abner Louima was injured not by Justin Volpe, but during “rough gay sex”.
      * Drew Peterson’s wife is on an extended vacation (not at the bottom of the Cal-Sag Canal).

      I wasn’t born yesterday. No need to ask what TIME yesterday.

    • This is exactly what I was going to say. I’ll add that black culture is also to blame for this horrendous mess. When a cop meets a black youth today, he is likely to meet a young man who is high as a kite on something and who has no real respect for the law, much less the cop. Blacks tend to escalate things, and we are buying into our own bullshit narrative at dangerous levels, creating conflict where none is needed and escalating situations to the point where we create the circumstance that gets us killed. If we want fewer cops shooting young black men, one way to help is for those young men to greet those cops in a manner consistent with mutual respect, no matter how bad the cop is behaving. Racial profiling is a two-sided coin. I recognize that if a cop walks up with his hand on a gun it’s as much about the numbers of men who look like me who have tried to harm him and his brethren in the past as it is any ‘racism’, overt or otherwise.

      • “If we want fewer cops shooting young black men, one way to help is for those young men to greet those cops in a manner consistent with mutual respect, no matter how bad the cop is behaving.”

        “Mutual”? I don’t think that word means what you think it means.

        If the cop is behaving badly, where exactly is the mutuality? I think what you meant to say was “fawning servility”.

        I grew up on the South Side of Chicago in the 1960s. I want NOTHING to do with the police, EVER. They forfeited any trust I might EVER have had in them LONG ago, probably before you were born. Levar Jones trusted the police. It almost cost him his life. He now walks with a limp. Message received, loud and clear.

        That being the case, I conduct myself so as to have as little conduct with cops as humanly possible.

        When I cannot avoid interacting with cops, I am polite, NOT friendly. When talking to cops, I make Javier Bardem in “No Country for Old Men” look like Robin Williams on angel dust. It’s all business, no smiles. I leave the “banter” to “Law & Order”.

        Whether you choose to recognize it, it’s a two way street. If the police are going to treat me like a criminal sight unseen, there’s simply no reason for me not to similarly view them as corrupt, racist, sociopathic, etc.

        If a cop wants unconditional love, he should buy himself a dog.

        If he wants RESPECT, he should give it.

        • I grew up in Near North Chicago, seeing the exact same things you saw, and I saw that the behavior you espouse has done sweet f*** all to help. You are behaving exactly in the way that creates needless conflict. I rest my case.

        • While it is an exaggeration to say I grew up in Mayberry, it gets the point across. I moved to Houston. While there, an encounter with a police officer taught me to avoid police whenever possible. He was investigating gun shots at my apartment. They were fireworks. I knew this because I lived there. I told him it was fireworks. He accused me of doing it right before I told him which apartment was throwing the fireworks off their balcony. Having stopped me from telling him who he was there to deal with, I stopped co-operating and went inside. I decided to avoid cops. This is why people don’t co-operate with police.

          Being an asshole is seldom the right way to do anything.

        • Reading all this, I’m again thankful for where I live and ever more determined never to leave again. Here we have…none of this. Our cops are, in the vast majority, easy going, friendly, and respectful. Of course this also reflects our citizenry; largely polite and respectful. We aren’t afraid of each other, nor do we necessarily see each other as being different.

          Perhaps the problem is occurring well before and beyond police-citizen interaction, and actually exists at the citizen to citizen level; that is, maybe the social issues inherent in urban areas are the root cause of negative interactions, right and wrong, between police and citizens.

          Either way, here in my little paradise in southern Ohio, I’m grateful.

      • The Democrat Party/political left have “weaponized” black people in the USA for use as political pawns. The left NEEDS aggrieved groups, they NEED a narrative of an unjust society, they NEED constant trouble for their politics to work. Read Saul Alinsky’s “Rules for Radicals”, the playbook of the left, it explains what they do quite well.

      • Black and white Americans use drugs about the same extent (blacks are incarcerated for the use and possession at a far higher rate, though–I’m looking at you, Tim Allen). In a longitudinal study published in the American Journal of Public Health (May 2016), whites and hispanics use hard drugs more than blacks. When it comes the marijuana, black and white use is within a few percentage point (Washington Post 2013).

        I guess we cannot blame “black culture.”

        • I recall reading that the referenced study relied on self-reporting, of all things, and subsequent drug tests administered during medical treatment found that blacks under-reported their own drug use at an astonishingly higher rate than whites. Same study?

        • And what is the rate of drug dealing and gang activities between blacks and whites?
          Drug use might be similar but other illegal activities are not. Those hight number of incarcerations of blacks for drug crimes include many plea deals for lesser infractions.

        • You realize that study was based solely on self-reporting, right? Blacks use drugs at a much higher rate than whites, but are also more likely to be involved in some aspect of the legal system(warrants, probation, parole, etc) so are less likely to self-incriminate.

          In other words, if Tyrone is on probation or has warrants, he’s not going to admit having an 8 ball in his pocket.

          Some hard working white guy who smokes pot but has a clean record will happily anonymously admit that.

      • In many cases, there is a black woman at the scene creating chaos. Shouting, screaming, telling her man not to listen to the police officer, telling the police officer not to do his job.

        Lots of posters here need some perspective. I get the feeling that the overwhelming majority of us have indeed been stopped by the police, and none of us have been shot. I’ve been stopped while carrying TWO pistols and didn’t have a problem. I informed the officer,calmly, after handing him my CCW permit, insurance, and license of this fact. His response? OK no problem, thanks for telling me.

        Can any of us really say Castile WASN’T reaching for his gun? No. None of us have a view into that car. We have been told he was “reaching in his pocket”, but the picture of the gun on the ground at the scene appears to be a compact Glock—can’t tell if 19 or 26, but neither of those will fit in a pocket(unless Castile was wearing throwback JNCOs). The Conservative Treehouse analyzed the video and has a screencap which appears to show a pistol under Castile’s leg.

        Cops have to make split second decisions and are subjected to all sorts of hate—-racial in nature—-all day long. Of course they are on edge when they stop a black person. Black people are notorious for being difficult to arrest.

        • “Black people are notorious for being difficult to arrest.”

          And cops are notorious for lying, including under oath.

          Or do yo believe that100lb. barmaid Karolina Obrycka threw 300lb. cop Tony Abbate around “like a rag doll”?

          Bad cops and their enablers promote a cop’s “divine right to ‘testily'”, even when it costs an innocent person her life as in the case of Kathryn Johnston.

        • What’s crazy is how many times I’ve seen cops lie about things that don’t even matter, at all. They definitely lied too. They say one thing. The video shows that thing didn’t even come close to happening. Or a geographical description of the town I grew up in that is just wrong.

    • You got the description of a covert racist. Your reaching as far as you can to grab onto anything you can use to demonize the victim. Go to hell you POS.

      • You’re entitled to your opinion, which I happen to agree with, but your cursing is not appreciated.
        Hopefully it will be removed by the moderator.

      • Is that the extent of your argumentation ability? You really need to try harder. Ad hominem is so unbecoming.

        Claiming that I’m a “covert racist” because we disagree on the facts, and their implications, is just lazy.

        • To me Chip, what you posted makes sense. I saw the video, and it was obvious the cop had only responded to what he was seeing as a “reasonable person” would have in a similar situation. I speak from my own experience as a person that OC’s regularly and have taken into account the danger a cop faces in his every day job and how he does not know me or my intent in OC’ing a firearm. So when a cop stops me when I’m driving, I immediately take out my wallet with my ID out of my left back pocket and place it on the dash before the cop has even stepped out of his cruiser, because I also OC my firearm on my left side. You see where I am going with this , I had already figured out that I didn’t want to have the cop decide if I was reaching for my wallet, or my gun, when he was going to ask for my ID, because I didn’t want to get shot by mistake, just like happened to this individual.

          Personally, maybe because I have worked as a firefighter/emt, I know how quickly things unfold and how the “fog of war” can develop when you get that adrenalin dump and you have to make a life and death decision with imperfect information, so I have more empathy for other first responders in the life and death decisions they make.

          And evidently, the jury that saw all of the facts that we don’t have, also agreed with the officer in the action that he took with the imperfect information that he had.

        • Less that 8% of the US population are black males, yet they commit 50% of all homicides, feel free to read the FBI UCR. Not to mention a grossly disproportionate amount of most violent crimes. Shockingly enough, other folks know who the predators are likely (not surely, but *more* likely), and act accordingly.

          If you can get an honest answer out of Colion Noir, I’d love to hear which one sets off his radar more – 4 white guys walking down an alley toward you, or 4 white guys. I know the answer my normal middle-class black friends give.

          It’s not “racism”, it’s an accurate assessment of the potential threat matrix. That does not mean one distrusts all blacks, just means you know what’s a bit more like to happen than when you meet a bunch of Baptist grannies.

      • You sound like a leftist Democrat. As a rather conservative guy who votes Republican for lack of a better alternative, I certainly don’t idolize KKK members, or neo-nazis, or any other white criminals or criminal groups. But, a lot of black people have been taught BY THE DEMOCRAT PARTY to idolize gang-bangers…and the Democrat Party needs that for their schemes to work. Identity politics and aggrieved groups are at the heart of how they do business. If you aren’t a leftist Democrat, you really need to read about Saul Alinsky’s “Rules for Radicals”, the playbook of the left.

    • Wow! Why did you not just skip all your bull shit and yell “I hate Black people and I am glad there is one less of them”. Sheesh, I never read a more racist post in my life. Castile obeyed every one of the officers commands, and he told the officer he was armed. That is hardly the actions of a man that was thinking of surprising the cop with a gun and killing him. If the mad dog paranoid racist cop had been even 10 per cent sane he would have known that. And you got it all wrong on the stop as well, the cop could not possibly have identified Castile as suspect when he buzzed by in his car but rather he was stopped for a burned out tail light. Sheeze get your facts straight first before shouting to the world your a racist.

      The cop had no business being hired as a cop as he was not only untrained but paranoid as well. In Germany the cops get thorough psychological testing to weed out sadists and pyscho’s which this cop obviously was. In Germany Police get 3 years of intensive training as to when they can and cannot shoot and they are also trained to use deescalating procedures and when that fails subdue people without shooting them out of hand. In the U.S. many jurisdictions hire cops with little or no training, put a gun in their hand and tell them solve all problems with a bullet in the head because the courts will back you up 100 per cent even if there is damning cell phone videos showing you shooting a man in the back or sitting in his car complying with all of your orders as was done in the Castile case.

      In 2016 mad dog cops gunned down a horrific 1,500 people as opposed to the Germans who killed only 12 people. Even when you take into consideration the population difference the mathematics are still horrific beyond belief. The U.S. can no more claim to be a civilized country than Mexico or some of the other South American countries that let cops gun people down at will. In the U.S. the corrupt court systems absolutely guarantee that cops can gun people down at will and never be held accountable for their actions. And if you want to up your chances of getting blown away, then carry a gun legally for self protection because the cop will know the minute he runs your license on his computer your probably armed and will shoot first and ask questions over your dead body which makes it light years more likely you will be killed by a cop than by a criminal out to rob you. Some choice you have these days, get blown away by a cop or by a criminal. Either way you lose if you carry a gun or do not carry a gun. Some choice.

      By The Associated Press

      Philando Castile was shot to death by a police officer last July barely more than a minute after his car was pulled over in a St. Paul, Minnesota, suburb for a faulty taillight. On Friday, St. Anthony police officer Jeronimo Yanez was acquitted of manslaughter. Yanez testified he saw a gun and feared for his life.

      https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/minnesota/articles/2017-06-16/prosecution-timeline-of-traffic-stop-in-castile-shooting

      • Wow! Why did you not just skip all your bull shit and yell “I hate Black people and I am glad there is one less of them”.

        Ad hominem is so unbecoming. So are straw man arguments. Also: stop projecting.

        Sheesh, I never read a more racist post in my life.

        Where did I mention, reference, or imply a racial contribution to what happened? I blamed Castile’s marijuana use, not his skin color. A white person who was high on marijuana, behaving exactly the same way, would materially contribute to exactly the same outcome.

        Castile obeyed every one of the officers commands, and he told the officer he was armed. That is hardly the actions of a man that was thinking of surprising the cop with a gun and killing him.

        The officer said, “Don’t reach for it. Don’t pull it out. Don’t pull it out.” Castile proceeded to reach for his pocket, while saying, “I’m not reaching for… I’m not pulling it out.”

        That is the exact opposite of obeying everyone one of the officer’s commands.

        But, please: tell me more about how that makes me racist.

        • And I also forgot to give an example of how fast people can sober up when they are extremely frightened. I was once involved in an auto accident and was hit by a guy high on weed. When the cops got there which was very quickly you would not believe how fast his demeanor changed. The Cop had no idea the guy was high because his behavior had changed dramatically. It was only when I demanded the cop search the guys car and give him a sobriety test that the cop then realized I was telling the truth about this guy and why he had caused the accident. The whole point is that your diatribe against Castile is one couched in subconscious racism and its blatant to anyone who read your post. You make so many assertions against Castile while giving Geronimo every benefit of the doubt that is nauseating to say the least.

      • I’ve had many interactions with Chip over the years and while I disagree with his assessment of the evidence we non-jurors have of this tragedy nearly as strongly as you, I cannot agree that his statement was overtly (or even covertly) racist. His assessment of facts provided were simply that, and we are all entitled to come to our own conclusions without berating each other for a differing perspective.

        I don’t often agree with what Chip has to say, and historically he hasn’t agreed much with me either. But he is an honest enough man to send me an item he believed would be very helpful to me on a personal level despite our disagreements. Both the action and the item make me believe he is a man of excellent character even when I feel he is misguided. No other member of TTAG has my home address, and I may be the only one who has his.

        TLDR: Chip is a solid dude and it would behoove you to tone down the rhetoric a bit to try to understand his perspective. Even if you disagree, it will be worth your time. He is honest and reasoned.

        • The cisco kid called me a racist once. Cause I decided not to buy a vacation home in France after the french .gov cracked down on civil rights following the Paris attacks. It’s part of his damage.

          cisco kid and 2asux made Trump possible. So maybe we should be thankful.

        • I remember that. Hilarious. I still can’t figure out why anyone would want a vacation home in France.

        • The food. Best goat cheese in the world is in France. Raspberry jelly to die for.

          I have told you I’m an old fat white guy, right?

        • I’m more of a meat guy myself. Steak, brisket, ribs. Hell, even chicken. Just about anything smoked low and slow is delicious.

    • Your order of events is off:

      http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/448740/philando-castile-verdict-was-miscarriage-justice

      The officer instructed Philando to you retrieve his license and proof of insurance. Philando gave Yanez his proof of insurance and was in the midst of retrieving his license (part of the original command he was given) when he informed the officer that he was armed. The officer said just don’t reach for it, Philando is still retrieving the license to satisfy the original command, he is not reaching for the gun and states that multiple times as does his girlfriend. The ‘split second’ life and death decision as you call it was entirely created by Yanez and his incorrect procedure for a suspected felony stop.

      • The minutae of the “order of events” isn’t all that germane. At the time the officer used deadly force, it is likely that the jury determined that he reasonably believed that Castile was reaching for his gun, while being given orders not to do so.

      • Ah, you have hit on one of my favorite things, the fact that the police are used for “code enforcement” which generates revenue for states and municipalities, instead of being used to keep the peace. If there weren’t so many little BS laws, the police wouldn’t try to arrest so many people, and the number of situations that could turn deadly would be greatly reduced.

        • This is beyond true. So many negative police/citizen encounters are secondary to the encounter being initiated by the LEO over bullshit.

    • the other cop never even reached for his pistol and he was right next to Castile. The cop who shot had no justifiable reason to even draw his pistol. And to fire 7 shots at 6 ft away into a car with a woman and child also in the car? That was a bad shooting.

      • Castile was the driver. The cop who shot was on the driver’s side. The other cop was on the passenger side.

    • And one more fact the Police Dept. fired Geronimo which is shouting to the world that they know they fucked up by hiring this incompetent / psycho from the very beginning.

    • “However, it was Castile’s fault that he was too high to realize that his actions would escalate the situation”

      You have no idea what you are talking about. That is not how THC works.

      Besides, it was the incompetent cop who escalated the situation by drawing his gun needlessly (when his partner did not) and giving a bunch of contradictory commands. Don’t use cannabis as some sort of original sin to excuse police criminality, especially when the victim was literally obeying orders.

      • Did you vote for Gary “Free Weed” Johnson? Why is it every weed smoker works so hard to convince everyone else that everyone should always be baked?

        • As a non “weed smoker” I find this argument lazy and I’m sick to my ass of seeing it… Gary Johnson, while a decent governor, was a fuck awful candidate due largely to the fact that he never took his run seriously.

          It’s possible to support marijuana legalization without being a pot head just like it’s possible to believe grown ass adults can imbibe alcohol without being AA-bound alcoholics.

          We’ve all got our vices, you should step back and consider your own before charging up the hill that is someone else’s…

      • As much as I usually disagree with MDS, he has a point here.

        The marijuana is a separate issue from this particular shooting. I’ve seen no evidence that the victim was high, the cop makes no mention of smelling pot and even if the guy was high, again MDS is right, that’s not how pot works.

        Personally, I have real trouble defending a cop who claims he was in fear for his life but actively sticks his gun in through the driver’s window while firing thereby creating a situation where the supposed violent criminal that has scared the officer then has the opportunity to take that gun from the cop.

        I don’t know all the facts. I wasn’t there and I wasn’t on the jury but watching the videos it’s hard to say the officer acted appropriately. Did he deserve serious charges? Maybe not, but he sure as shit didn’t handle this situation very well.

        • Again that is not how THC works. But let’s just ignore science assign original sin to justify this killing, just like the killer cop did with a ludicrous statement about Castile supposedly not caring about pigster safety if he has the audacity to smoke a plant and drive a car. Oh, the horror.

        • What’s not “how” THC works? Please enlighten me on the function of Delta9-Tetrahydrocannabinol in cannabis. How long you can test for residuals in blood, hair? How high you get, what happens when you’re high? Do tell, enlighten us.

        • 1. THC effects and associated dosage levels vary widely person to person.
          2. THC does not effect cognition (specifically, verbal processing and response) directly. Any effect is secondary and subject to wide variations.
          3. THC can be stored in body fat and released back into the bloodstream post-mortem, making blood measurements to assess subjective impairment completely unreliable.

          This is basic stuff, but I don’t expect the pig cheerleaders to know or care about science. Especially when their livelihoods depend in part on continued prohibition.

        • So you’ve told me nothing that I didn’t know about the effects of weed in the 1980s. Other than you’re conflating “effects vary widely” with “THC levels in weed vary widely”. The personal aspects vary less than alcohol.

          Do try again.

        • “Other than you’re conflating “effects vary widely” with “THC levels in weed vary widely”

          Both are true, there is no conflation whatsoever. This is why there is no reliable way to measure impairment due to this variation and all attempts to legislate THC impairment has no scientific basis.

          And if you knew #3 then you would know that blood residual testing is garbage, and you wouldn’t have mentioned it.

          “Do try again.”

          Says the guy who asked a rhetorical question to mask his ignorance. Oh, the irony. 🙂

    • Wouldn’t a felony stop of Castille have been handled differently than that shown in the video?

      • Indulging in technicalities: there is no such thing as a ‘felony’ stop (anymore). I mean, someone who commits a high enough shoplifting threat can commit a ‘felony.’ There are ‘high-risk’ stops which is pretty much the same idea. Should this have been one?

        Probably not. This wasn’t a suspect from a bank robbery that had just happened (it was from awhile ago). This was a stop for a equipment violation where the cop also wanted to ID the driver because he looked like what was probably a vague suspect description. Imagine doing a ‘high-risk stop’ (ordering everyone out of the car at gunpoint) every time you pull someone over in that case. It’s not reasonable, and you’re going to run into serious problems almost every time. Imagine the freak-out the girlfriend would have had over it.

        So, no. 99% of the time the way the cop approached the car is the right thing to do. You can’t tell the 1% of the time, but you’re gonna run into problems ordering people out of the car on a much higher rate. Of the things that went wrong here I don’t think the approach was one of them.

    • Quote——————It wasn’t Castile’s fault that another black man committed an armed robbery in the vicinity. It also wasn’t Castile’s fault that he bore some resemblance to that armed robber. However, it was Castile’s fault that he was too high to realize that his actions would escalate the situation, and lead to a tragic end result.—————-Quote

      Your veiled racism fools no one but yourself. I am sure Adolf Hitler truly believe he was not a racist as well and I am not being facetious in any sense of the word. The whole bull shit the cop used about resemblance was a con game to get him off the hook that is more than obvious and the your making the statement it was Castile’s fault because he was high again is pure racism speaking because you do not know if he was indeed high or as high as you claim or if his actions had anything to do with his being high. Real facts are that people who are drunk or high can sober up very quickly when faced with a life or death threat from a maniac cop pointing a gun in your face. The cop made excuses to get off the hook and you are making excuses for the cop because you hate black people and if the situation would have been one of a white man being shot we would be hearing a very different analysis of the shooting guaranteed.

      • Your veiled racism fools no one but yourself.

        Repeating specious,ad hominem doesn’t make it true. But knock yourself out, hotshot.

        I am sure Adolf Hitler truly believe he was not a racist as well and I am not being facetious in any sense of the word.

        Godwinning yourself? Well-played, I suppose.

        The whole bull shit the cop used about resemblance was a con game to get him off the hook that is more than obvious

        IIRC, the BOLO reference was made via radio, *before* the stop was initiated. The broken taillight was the means to initiate the stop, but the purpose of the stop was the BOLO.

        …and the your making the statement it was Castile’s fault because he was high again is pure racism…

        I’ll take Non Sequiturs for $200, Alex.

        …speaking because you do not know if he was indeed high or as high as you claim or if his actions had anything to do with his being high.

        Wrong. The officer smelled marijuana, and Castile had THC in his system.

        Source

        Real facts are that people who are drunk or high can sober up very quickly when faced with a life or death threat from a maniac cop pointing a gun in your face. The cop made excuses to get off the hook and you are making excuses for the cop because you hate black people and if the situation would have been one of a white man being shot we would be hearing a very different analysis of the shooting guaranteed.

        You are projecting, and (as is your MO) putting words in my mouth, making specious claims. You are the only one injecting race into my analysis. A white person in exactly the same circumstances, who did exactly the same thing, could expect exactly the same outcome.

        You may take your specious allegations of racism and use them to engage yourself in an anatomically impossible act of self-fornication.

    • Who said Philadro ISN”T the robbery suspect they were looking for? If you do your research, you’ll find there IS physical evidence linking Philandro to the robbery that was being investigated in the immediate area.
      Again, none of this really matters, because if Philadro had just followed orders, or practiced basic common sense, he’d still be alive.

    • Why is the NRA obliged to make any statements related to this? How are the two even related?

      That’s like expecting AAA to release a statement every time there’s a car crash.

      • Because it’s a very bad interaction between a gun owner exercising his Second Amendment rights and a police officer, both groups the NRA claims to stand for. This is bad for both sides and they should be able to see that.

  6. It seems pretty clear that Collins is saying, “There but for the grace of God go I.”

    I’d like to think that he’s wrong. I’d like to think so, but I don’t.

  7. i can not believe this cop got off. complete BS. i will usually side with the police but this case is way different.

  8. Should have been convicted. Cowardly jury. Just read a piece at the Daily Caller… never offer information to the police.

    Colorado CCW I will never offer up I have a permit. They are required to ask. Not required under law. I used to hand over my permit with my driver license and auto info.

  9. re: conflicting orders from cops, esp. multiple cops:

    Look at the death of Erik B. Scott, in the parking lot of a Costco in Las Vegas. He had a CCW. Multiple cops were shouting conflicting orders at him. And… he wasn’t black. He was white, a graduate of West Point, an Army vet, Duke (MBA) and should have been entitled to the full measure of “white privilege” according to BLM tropes.

    Nope, he was shot like a dog, while he was laying in a Costco parking lot after trying to comply with three different streams of commands from the typically low-IQ people in PD’s. Instead of the ranking officer on the scene taking command, all three start yelling commands.

    When I lived in Nevada, we always knew that LV Metro PD was a corrupt and mobbed-up PD. In over 190 inquests, only one cop has ever been reprimanded for their incompetence and/or malfeasance in killing someone. In Scott’s case, they shot him four times in the back – and no one even got their hand slapped.

    • Look at the shootings of Emma Hernandez and Margie Carranza, the Hispanic paper delivery women whom the LAPD “mistook” for a tall, muscular Black man and tried to slaughter.

      The LAPD first spit in their faces, trying stick them with an inferior replacement vehicle, then trying to make them pay TAXES on it, as if they’d won on “Jeopardy”.

      Then look at David Perdue, the White surfer similarly “mistaken” for a Black cop that made Isaac Hayes look like Emmanuel Lewis. The Torrance PD then treated him even worse than the LAPD treated the two women.

      None of the cops who tried to murder these innocent people has EVER been prosecuted criminally. Why? Because they were “scared”. I have plenty of reason to be “scared” of the police, yet I don’t go around shooting them.

      As far as any of them being punished, I’ve seen no published account of what that “punishment” might be. Without documentation, it never happened and anyone who claims that it did is lying.

      The Dorner debacle is the perfect example of police incompetence, contempt for the public and total lack of accountability.

  10. Saw the dashcam video. Geronimo should be charged with reckless endangerment. Not because Geronimo shot Castile (that trial is done), but because he shot through the window where his partner was standing in the line of fire on the other side of the car. And while I am at it, he displayed reckless disregard for the child in the back seat.

  11. In some jurisdictions, you are trained to put your hands on the ceiling of your vehicle until instructed otherwise. Extreme, but safer. This incident is so tragic for all involved. I am curious if Philando’s passenger was quiet or yapping away during the encounter. If passengers are adding to the chaos, that can contribute to bad outcomes. Personally, I have already removed my wallet with ID and laid it on the dash before police approach, then put my hands on wheel – interior lights on, engine off, blinkers on, window down. Passengers instructed to do the same. OK, I am DWW, but hey, it could be a black cop ready to cap my a$$ (jk)

  12. Why even bother asking for driver’s licenses anymore? They should be able to cross-reference that stuff with a name and SSN, and say “this picture on the computer looks/doesn’t look like you.” Heck, the New Jersey and Maryland jackboots have been known to pull people over for having a CCW license in another state after running their plates. I shouldn’t really have to reach anywhere near a place where I might have a gun, and cops need to chill the f— out when doing routine traffic stops.

      • And that sums up the problem on the police side of the equation: EVERYONE wants to kill police, or so they are trained to think. As someone said in a comment above, BOTH sides contribute to the mess, and neither cares about the dead nor takes any responsibility.

      • Then traffic stops are too dangerous and police shouldn’t do them.

        I get what you’re saying, but police need to learn how to do their jobs. Unclear or contradictory orders are the cops fault. Police need to be polite and professional at all times. We ask that of waiters.

        I’m not sure what the best way to test for it is, but if someone is going to lose it in a dangerous situation, they shouldn’t be a cop.

        • I don’t think we like to say it very loud or very often, and it’s not very popular these days where everyone is supposedly equal in everyway, to include abilities and intellect, but when one volunteers to go into harms way, we expect from that person whatever bravery or forbearance or assumption of risk it takes to avoid tragedy and atrocity, even when that means not necessarily always taking the safest, surest route. If one wants to avoid these risks, law enforcement isn’t the work for them. If we continue to pretend that people ought to be allowed to do things for which they are unsuited, because of whatever political correctness influenced tripe is currently being peddled, then we, as a society, bear some blame when these sorts of things happen.

          I don’t know what specific mechanisms are needed to correct the situation, but at the root of the problem is the enormous lie that implies all people are equally suited for all tasks. It is this most basic misunderstanding or intentional misrepresentation that underlies much of the ills of our society.

    • So you want the cop to go back to his car, HOPE his computer works (if he has one), pull up a DMV photo and then remember if it looks like the person? All of this requiring the cop be engrossed in a computer screen instead of observing his surroundings? You really have no clue.

      “Heck, the New Jersey and Maryland jackboots have been known to pull people over for having a CCW license in another state after running their plates.”

      “Have been known” lol. No they don’t. Stop reading blogs that treat assumptions and rumors as news. There is no such information returned upon ‘running plates.’

      • Seriously, other than rural New Mexico or some such, are you really suggesting there’s a cruiser without computer? Really? Sure AKHP snow machines don’t have them, but I haven’t seen a cruiser without one in the last 10 years. Anywhere. I’m sure there are some somewhere, but that would be very odd.

        Do you really have a computer that doesn’t automatically show DL status, P&P status, warrant status, caution indicators, and someone’s entire criminal and traffic record including charges, arrests, and convictions? Not to mention that all pops automatically on the LPR equipped cars (of which there are more everyday). Good plate om wrong car? It’ll alert. Got a warrant? Alert. Suspended DL on a car linked to operator, alert.

        If you think that CCWs aren’t tagged to DLs, they may not be in your neck, but they are in much of the rest.

        I guess maybe it’s different in Lalaland, but the rest of the country knows “enough” when you do the stop, and everything a court does (short of expungements, ‘theoretically’) once you run the DL.

  13. He shouldn’t walk away. The facts may not justify criminal charges but I think they do justify removal from the police force. If he doesn’t know the proper way to handle a situation like this then I don’t want him on the street with a badge and a gun.

    • No longer on the force; can’t come back. M.Brn family just got awarded settlement for “wrongful death”, even though fed DOJ under Holder could not find actionable error. I see the same happening here.

      • I think the officer is responsible for Castile’s death. I also think Castile is responsible for his death. My problem is that, without a showing, the likely party to be held responsible is the government.

        Michael Brown’s family shouldn’t have gotten anything. If anything, they caused problems for the city by inciting violence and rioting.

        • “Michael Brown’s family shouldn’t have gotten anything. If anything, they caused problems for the city by inciting violence and rioting.”

          And EVERY last one of the LAPD and Torrance PD cops who fired a SINGLE round at Emma Hernandez, Margie Carranza and David Perdue (plus the one who rammed Perdue’s truck) should be doing twenty years in Pelican Bay.

          But they’re not.

          The sociopaths of Black Lives Matter and the Fraternal Order of Police are running the asylum.

    • Most cops, at some point in their career, are presented with a scenario in which they could legally use deadly force but choose not to. This should have been one of those times, I think. I don’t know if I’ll say he should be fired… but I do think he should probably be finding a new career anyway.

  14. Between the shouting over each other and the nonsensical contradictory commands cops seem to go from 0-red lining way too readily.

    For all the bullshit talk about deescalation and the use of force continuum cops really must want to jack it all up as fast as humanely possible.

    Do cops watch COPS? Because on COPS they all seem to remain calm, polite and wholly reasonable right up until they absolutely can’t any longer. If a Vegas bike cop in short shorts can have a chill conversation with an obviously drugged up dude covered in blood for 15 minutes while waiting for backup there’s no reason in the world for a traffic stop to shoot straight up to crazy shouting and finger on the trigger.

    • Think of how much safer we would all be if cops didn’t carry guns.

      I travel abroad a lot. One thing I have noticed is that in other countries, cops don’t really care about traffic laws much. They aren’t trying to pad the towns coffers with citations for busted tail lights. IMHO, we need to stop pulling people over for stupid shit. If you didn’t cause an accident then who cares. Funny thing is that as a motorcycle safety instructor, I’m OCD about my driving. I love turning left when someone opposite me is turning right. It scares the shit out of them because 90% of them don’t stay in their lane. Makes me laugh.

  15. On memorial day of this year I was pulled over. I was openly carrying a pistol on my left side. I did not tell the cop I was carrying nor did I offer my ccw. The cop noticed the gun (so far the first of three to actually do so). Did he pull a gun on me, order me out of the car, or start shooting? No, although he ostensibly had the right to do at least 2 of those things. He simply opened the door and very calmly took the gun out of my holster. He gave it back to me with all my ammo at the end of the stop.

    Now I was not high during the stop, but I am also white. Philandro was actually more accommodating to his police officer than I was, and he was killed for it. I only got a speeding ticket. Yanez deserves to be in jail for what he did. Maybe only for a year or two, but getting off clean leaves a very bad taste in my mouth.

    • “He simply opened the door and very calmly took the gun out of my holster. He gave it back to me with all my ammo at the end of the stop.”

      Now there’s my rub. On what grounds did he simply open your door and take your gun? Officer safety? That’s BS. My holstered gun is far safer to both of us left in it’s holster. Just as his is. I don’t want some yahoo fondling my gun in my presence, period. This is my biggest fear. And I really would like some advice as to how to handle it. If a cop wants to take my gun from me for his safety, I’m going to tell him no and ask him to go get a supervisor on site. No good can come from removing my gun from it’s holster and a lot of bad things can happen.

      • On principle I agree with you, but I was hoping just to let him do his thing and hopefully not give me a ticket. Didn’t work out. They have the right to remove you from the car and disarm you during the stop according to SCOTUS, so I figured either way he was getting that gun if he wanted it.

    • You win the internet Vhyrus…may I add I can’t believe Jeronimo! should have ever been on the street. Pathetic even for a cop…

    • “Philandro was actually more accommodating to his police officer than I was…”

      Did you reach down towards the gun after the cop had noticed it? If not, that’s a helluva lot more relevant than race.

      • Actually, the cop couldn’t figure out how my retention holster worked, so yes I had to reach down and help him get it out.

  16. When I get into my truck I put my wallet in the center console. If I should get pulled over it will be on the dash before I even stop. In VA we have no duty to inform. And, having watched and read all the advice from folks about the reasons for informing, I never will and this is why. I am naturally suspicious of cops. I don’t trust them if I don’t know them. And I don’t volunteer information they don’t need.

    • “And I don’t volunteer information they don’t need.” This. Maybe change need to “are entitled to.” There are situations in which it is prudent to give them information that they are not entitled to. My dad tells every cop that his oldest is son is a police officer and his youngest is a lawyer. He gets out of most tickets, but he has always had a silver tongue.

      • In this TX_Lawyer you remind me, poignantly in ways, of a dear friend, who also is a lawyer, which is perhaps the reason for the comparison in the first place, or not. There is certainly a time to invoke, and roll the dice, but there is also room for some nuanced communication. If I’ve been stopped for driving erratically, I’m certainly under no legal duty to explain myself, but there is likely little harm and potentially great gain in explaining how I was fighting with a bee in my car…particularly if I can demonstrate the truth or probable truth of my assertion. There are definately times to say nothing, but thats not everytime.

    • In Texas, they already know whether you’re licensed to carry, because it’s cross referenced with your license plate and driver’s license. While technically you do have a duty to declare here, the penalty for failure to do so has been removed. Still, I wonder whether not declaring, when they already know, might make the officer more suspicious of you.

    • Are you really that computer illiterate? No you are not. The cops know you have a gun on you before your car even rolls to a stop, its all on computer if you are carrying legally. Obviously you are not carrying legally as I find it impossible to believe you are not already aware of the info in cop cruisers that they already have on you. I think you inadvertently let the cat out of the bag.

  17. I too am sick to my stomach at this whole affair. And I wonder how we got here. My LE encounters in VA have all been positive. I’m white. My black friends, not so much. DWB exists, it shouldn’t but it does. When I read that Philando Castile was pulled over because he matched the description of a robbery suspect, I thought to myself, “What, he’s a black male?” Is that all it takes to justify these actions? This cop is a disgrace to humanity. And what is going on in this country is a disgusting disgrace. BLM? Really? All fking lives matter. And those who pan the flames of hatred should be ashamed of their disgracing what once was the land of the free and home of the brave.

    And if Philando Castile had been a white male, driving a BMW in a business suit, there is no question we wouldn’t be having this conversation.

    • Driving while white is a thing too. On a docket call, several lawyers were waiting for court behind the courtroom. One lawyer had a white guy who the cop approached because the dude was a white guy in a black neighborhood.

    • It’s obvious all lives matter. But if we are presented with a situation like this again and again, it’s equivalent to saying “Feed all People” when a more realistic and helpful statement would be “Feed the Needy”. Now I don’t agree with BLM as a movement, but I do agree with the statement at the heart of it.

    • Does DWB exist because of “racism”, or more likely, because a large percentage of gang-bangers are black, and especially when compared to the whole of the black population of the USA? In other words, though there are obviously Hispanic gang-bangers, Asian gang-bangers, and white gang-bangers, they are lower percentages of the total population of each general racial/ethnic group. So, it stands to reason that unfortunately, police officers are more likely to suspect that a black man is a gang-banger, especially depending upon the general appearance of the individual in question. I don’t go around dressing like someone in a skinhead gang, or biker gang, etc, just as an example. In the end, the problem is that the black gang-banger has been glorified in the mass media (thanks to the political left/Democrat Party) to the point where black men who aren’t actually bangers want to emulate those that are…and that adds a layer of uncertainty for police. The mass media LOVES this kind of trouble, and so does the Democrat Party, because it makes them money and gets them votes.

      • Like how I assume any white dude wearing a wife beater in public, and not doing yard work, is trash. I came close to shooting one of those guys once.

        Dress for success.

  18. As John Whitehead points out, “Legally owning a gun in America could get you killed by a govt agent…without ever having committed a crime…”. “According to the WashPost, “1 in 3 people killed by guns are killed by police.””
    (see article at Rutherford Institute: Execution By Firing Squad: The Militarized Police State Opens Fire. Article is also on ZeroHedge.)

    So much talk about taking action on “gun violence”, but so little discussion or action on government agent violence … or even accountability.

    But then, of course, “Some animals are more equal than others.”

  19. In the old days when cops treated people like human beings if they stopped you for a burned out tail light most of the time they gave you either a verbal or written warning to get it fixes by a certain date. If they wanted to be a prick they gave you a ticket. Today they just pull out their guns, blaze away and blow your head off or shoot you in the back if you run away from them and as in South Carolina complete with demining video the mad dog sadist cop walked free and laughed about it I am sure.

  20. I watched the video clip. The cop gave instructions and the driver violated them. He is told not to move after advising that he is armed. The driver continued to move. At that point he violated the first rule in a traffic stop… comply with the orders of the police officer. When you comply without arguing, it lessens the officer’s concern. If the driver had pulled out a firearm, the officer has about 2 seconds to react.

    There are many videos out there which show what happens to a cop who is too slow. There are also many which show passengers in the car who cause more problems that the driver, and are responsible for escalating the situation. In this instance, I hear the female running her mouth… and probably pushing a phone into the situation to record it.

    So, the officer knows the driver is armed; and claims to be legally so; and a passenger is interjecting into the situation, and the driver is reaching for something. The officer doesn’t know if it’s ID or a gun. He’s be alive if he had done what he was told to do… “don’t move”.

    I had a similar case where a kid driving 60mph in a 15mph zone. In the passenger seat was his mother, and there were two males in the back seat (one the size of a linebacker was seated behind the driver. The mother started right in about how I had no authority to stop them. I’m trying to talk to the driver who was very cooperative. The mother is still going off. The back seat passengers join in. That’s when linebacker opens the door and starts to get out. I’m trying to deal with the driver, and watch all four people, and Rosie Greer is getting out to confront me directly. If the driver had gone for a weapon at that point, I likely would not be making the post. As it was, linebacker got one foot on the pavement when I kicked the rear door closed on his leg, and he fell back onto the seat. Mama went crazy. The driver remained cool calm and collected. The 4th person was quiet. In the end, the driver received a speeding citation. The mother and linebacker were charged with interference. My point is that things can easily go bad really fast, and the cop has very little time to recognize an overt act, and to react to it. The first person to go for a weapon is very often the winner and the one that lives. If you were the officer, wouldn’t you rather be the one that lives, or would you rather go to the morgue? Many of these shootings are really the vehicle operator’s fault for not following instructions. If I get stopped, and I have been, my hands stay on the wheel. My seatbelt remains buckled. I wait for instructions. If the officer asks, I tell him I am armed and licensed. Unfortunately, too many drivers have been led to believe that they are a privileged class who don’t have to obey cops, that cops pull people over for no reason, and other myths. They have a hostile attitude from the start.

    Great Quotes On Empathy. “You can’t understand someone until you’ve walked a mile in their shoes.” (The person who first uttered this American saying is lost to history.) [I will never know what it is like to be a liberal progressive socialistic commie Democrat, a plumber, a mechanic, etc.]

    • “Great Quotes On Empathy. “You can’t understand someone until you’ve walked a mile in their shoes.” (The person who first uttered this American saying is lost to history.) [I will never know what it is like to be a liberal progressive socialistic commie Democrat, a plumber, a mechanic, etc.]”

      I don’t need to understand ANYBODY to understand and obey the LAW.

      What was there to “understand” about Michael Brown? He robbed a convenience store and tried to disarm and kill a cop

      What is there to “understand” about Officer Sean Groubert? He ordered a man to produce his ID, then tried to KILL him for doing so.

      I’m sick to death of this loathsome gang mentality, both from private sector criminals and their “posses” and psychopathic cops and their fanbois.

    • Please point out, in the time code of the video you just watched, where the officer tells him not to move. No matter how many times you watch it, you aren’t going to hear that, because he never said it. After telling Castile to provide his insurance and license, he tells him not to go for his gun. As Castile claims to be going for his wallet, not his gun, he was complying.

      • This is probably the crux of the entire scenario. Yanez could/should have been more clear – stop moving and put your hands on the steering wheel. And then clarified or had the driver exit the vehicle. This MAY have given him more time to assess the situation…or not. This misstep on his part made it nearly impossible to step away from the ledge. That said, the fault isn’t his alone to bear.

        Castile was an idiot, plain and simple. Driving under the influence, carrying under the influence – stupid and stupid. Additionally, his hands should have been on the wheel prior to and during his declaration of being armed and allowed the officer to instruct him from there. Yanez didn’t even reach for his gun after the declaration UNTIL something occurring inside the vehicle provoked him to do so.

        There you have it – the recipe for tragedy; incompetence and stupidity. This had nothing to do with race and it saddens me that it even has to be discussed. In this recipe it is nothing more than a side dish that no one asked for.

    • In the case of that stop, driving 60 in a 15, that could easily be articulated as a public safety hazard, so I understand that one wholeheartedly. But, what if the person were 5 or 7 over in a 70 zone, out on a highway with little to no other traffic? Of course, you would be obliged to pull that person over…even though they were NOT causing any sort of public safety hazard. The politicians, who want revenue for their state, county, or municipality, are adding to your troubles with laws that penalize people who haven’t really caused a problem. All that said, I also completely understand you wanting to go home at the end of each shift in the same condition you started your shift, with life and limb intact.

  21. This was all about the criminal trial with the officer as the defendant. Now that he’s acquitted, there will un-doubedetly be a Civil Trial, for Wrongful Death.

    That’s where the family of the deceased will probably get a few Million $$$ (to help ease the pain)

  22. In Michigan anyway, and I assume many other states, if you’re a CPL holder, and driving a car legally registered to you, the officer will already know about your CPL BEFORE ever approaching your drivers side window.

    That’s why, I’ve always said: Hands in plain sight on the wheel. Tell the officer you’ve got a CPL AND you’re “ARMED” or whatever.

    If you’re under the influence of ANYTHING, your CPL in Michigan at least, is technically INVALID.

    So, Lock that heater up after a night out at the restaurant with your wife where you drank 4 glasses of wine.

    Much better to be safe, than SORRY!

    • “That’s why, I’ve always said: Hands in plain sight on the wheel. Tell the officer you’ve got a CPL AND you’re “ARMED” or whatever.”

      Is notification STATUTORILY REQUIRED in Michigan? If not, why do it?

      The ONLY good reason is if it’s about to be exposed for some reason.

      Ohio has mandatory notification… IF YOU ARE ARMED.

      Naturally some Ohio cops demand that you notify when NOT armed.

      My answer was, is, and always will be, “NO, I REFUSE.”

      Some people need to be reminded that it’s “LAW enforcement”, NOT “personal whim enforcement”.

  23. I agree with you Colion; so let’s discuss how to change things.

    My suggestion is a Traffic Stop Code of Conduct – observed by all people and taught to everyone (by your mother, father, brother, sister, uncle, whatever). Get LEO feedback on what they want to see so we can prevent another family from going through this again. Make sure that young people ESPECIALLY young men and PARTICULARLY young men of color use the code every time they are engaged by the police.

    I think the code should include:
    How you physically present yourself – where you have your hands, when you move and how you move etc
    What you say to LEO’s when you first encounter them – Find out what they need to know and give it to them before they ask
    How you communicate your movements and your intentions during an engagement with the police – I know this sounds repetitive but it’s more about how you move after your initial engagement and after you have been properly introduced…
    How you say you’re a CC holder and what you do when you have an encounter with a LEO – I’m a CC holder and my instructor gave me some good basic advice on how to deal with traffic stops when carrying a legal firearm

    Most of all we all have to do the same thing and do it always.

    If you choose to answer this post please add details to each section or give me YOUR idea on how to make a positive change in the relationship between LEO’s and the people they protect and serve.

    • The problem is that cops and citizens have conflicting goals. Cops are seeking evidence necessary for a conviction, search, warrant, etc. Citizens just want to go home. They want to avoid hassles and charges. People say it’s the cops who just want to go home at the end of their shift, but if that were the case, they probably would only pull over rich white people.

      The onus is on the cop to give clear, non-contradictory directions that do not violate the citizens rights. The citizen then has to decide what to do based on the cops behavior.

      In my CHL class, the instructor told the story of a guy pulled over by a cop. When he informed the cop he had a license and was carrying, the cop drew his gun, pointed it at the driver, and demanded the driver do something (I can’t remember if it was disarm or produce the CHL). The driver kept his hands on the steering wheel the whole time. He refused to comply. He demanded the officer call out his supervisor.

      When the supervisor arrived, he spoke with the officer out of the hearing of the driver. The supervisor came over to the driver and asked why he didn’t comply with the officer’s orders. The driver told him what happened and said the name of an officer who murdered three people and was acquitted and subsequently fired twice (the officer was hired by other agencies after being fired). The supervisor let the driver go without a warning.

      The point of the story is that a lot of cops can’t (to dumb, scared, whatever) or won’t follow the protocol.

      • I’m always amazed that fanbois think that:

        * People don’t know about a lot of the horrific things cops have done to completely innocent people like Emma Hernandez, Margie Carranza and David Perdue.
        * People who DO know about the Dorner debacle and the murder of Kathryn Johnston should simply pretend that they never happened, AND to COMPLETELY ignore the various conspiracies and whitewashes attendant, as in the case of murders of Johnston and the victims on the Danziger Bridge.
        * People should just throw their rights and all common sense to the wind and trust total strangers of COMPLETELY unknown character and motivation. Cops who shoot innocent citizens on the other hand, should IMMEDIATELY avail themselves of legal representation and be allowed to remain silent.
        * Cops should be able to shoot ANYBODY (except another cop) because they’re “scared”. Reasonableness never enters into it.

        For some cops and their enablers, this is China circa 1939, the cops are the Japanese Imperial Army, and we’re all Chinese, subject to their whim. You can ask Kathryn Johnston, Oscar Grant and Akai Gurley about that… if you know how to hold a seance.

  24. As per usual, PD ROE failure.

    How about:

    1. Your gun doesn’t come out unless you are actually in immediate danger.

    2. You don’t shoot unless fired upon.

    I miss the good old days when the police protected and served rather than demanded and intimidated by default.

  25. Hindsight is always 20/20. No one knows exactly what that officer was feeling or saw. This clearly could be looked at as abuse of power just as clearly as it can be labeled the suspect was not following correct police protocol and directions given by the officer. I would hope that during your concealed weapons permit class that the instructor take the time to tell you the correct way to act when you’re being pulled over by law enforcement when carrying your legally owned and possessed and carried firearm. I’m a white guy but I know darn well when I’m pulled over by the police to keep my hands at the 10 and 2 position roll all the windows down and give the officer my driver’s license and my concealed weapons permit at the same time. This makes the officer filmora tease because he can easily see inside the vehicle with all the windows down he can easily see my hands at the 2 and 10 position and that I have identified myself as a legal driver and operator of a motor vehicle and a licensed concealed weapons carrier. Most of the time unless you’re pulled over at 2:30 in the morning the police officer is going to respect the fact that you’ve gone through these rules and usually they tell me are you carrying a weapon now I reply yes sir I am and they asked where it is I tell them the 3:30 position on my right hip and they reply don’t make any movements towards that weapon and stay calm and this will be over with in a little bit once we run your license plate and your driver’s license and make sure you’re not wanted or the vehicle is illegally registered they let you go with either a ticket or a warning. I am no police officer nor do I play one on TV but I would suspect that walking up on a car in the early evening hours around dusk and having a person reaching all over the place for ID registration and whatnot could cause Panic especially after telling the officer that you have a concealed weapon. Just my $0.10 worth.

  26. In addition:
    It already annoys me that the public has given the police so much power with the acceptance of “just do whatever the police say” mentality. And what is their reason? Fear of being shot.

    Really? That is what is comes down to? Obey or be shot. How the hell is that not tyranny.

    How about the police fear mistreatment of a free person that can justifiably shoot them if the cop pulls a gun on them for no reasonable reason? Why should a free person put themselves at the mercy of the police when there are so many examples of abuse of power and unconstitutional stops?

    F’n sad.

    • In this case “do what the police say” involves not reaching for something in your pocket when you just told the police you have a gun.

      You poor, oppressed masses.

      • The problem here is that, as jwt has pointed out repeatedly here, sometimes there’s a disconnect between what you’re doing (complying with an instruction) and what the cop thinks you’re doing.

        Imagine for a second that Castile was legitimately reaching for his wallet, which contains the ID he’s been instructed to produce. The cop sees it as going for the gun and, as the Notorious BIG would say, *blam* *blam* have a nice dream.

        Now, that all seems super simple but trust me, when a an edgy cop is yelling at you it’s not. Simple shit becomes pretty hard under stress. The encounter is stressful enough and then you’re told to do something, you do it and suddenly screaming commences and there’s a gun in your face. For some people at that point the brain just shuts down and continues trying to do what it was trying to do in the first place (comply).

        Confusion and stress make people do funny things on both sides of a situation like this. However, it is absolutely true that some cops have a “comply or we open fire” attitude for every little thing, which is, in it’s own odd way, a bit tyrannical.

        The issue with a lot of the discussion that goes on with this kind of case is that 99.99% of the people involved, including police, experts and witnesses have exactly no knowledge of human behavior or how our brain works. “He shouldn’t have done that” is easy to say when it’s not you in the situation, but trust me, it’s a bit different when you are in the situation.

      • So you’re saying announcing you have a gun and moving one’s hand is reason enough for police to shoot you? That’s it? Where is the imminent threat of injury or bodily harm? I didn’t see a gun in Castile’s hand…

        Having a gun on your person doesn’t automatically make someone a criminal, it simply means we have the same level of force at our finger tips as the police. You think that uniform makes all police good people? Think again.

        If the police are overly nervous that citizens are lawfully armed and they overreact by default, there needs to be a different discussion in this country about the perception and training that is obviously lacking in how police interact with armed citizens. Period.

        If I am not pointing my gun at you or threatening you, you shouldn’t be able to lawfully shoot me without fear of repercussions from the Justice system. How about that? That seems reasonable.

        Here’s a starting point: All police officers have to show the same restraint that is mandated from lawfully armed citizens. If an armed citizen had this same experience and shot a guy just for moving his hand I’m 100% sure they would not be acquitted.

        Unless I see a weapon in a person’s hand and I’m sure beyond a reasonable doubt that person is intending to do me harm, that’s the only context for a good shoot.

        • “So you’re saying announcing you have a gun and moving one’s hand is reason enough for police to shoot you? That’s it? ”

          Life and death difference between “having a reason”, and having a response. Trusting that any cop will be rational, reasonable, courteous, sensible no matter what you do during a stop is not an attitude I want to cultivate.

          You carry a gun because you might need it. Most likely not, but you might. When you are stopped by the police, you most likely will not be in a situation where a cop is on razor thin alert, but you might. You pays your money, and takes your chance.

          Hands on the wheel, look straight ahead, make no move whatsoever that is not approved by the cop at hand. Move very slow.

        • “Hands on the wheel, look straight ahead, make no move whatsoever that is not approved by the cop at hand. Move very slow.”

          I can see both sides of this. On the one hand you’re absolutely correct, that’s the smart way to operate in the real world where you have no idea who this cop is. He/she could be a stone cold professional or he/she could be a jumpy jackass or he/she could be a pro who’s operating on little sleep and too much caffeine. Regardless of which one you’re dealing with getting shot is a bad way to find out which one he/she is.

          OTOH, I can see why people say “I haven’t done anything [seriously] wrong and I’m just exercising my rights so I shouldn’t have to deal with this”. It is a PITA and it is kind of unreasonable.

          The whole thing reminds me of something my dad says “People die every day protesting the right of way”. It’s easier to let some jackwagon break the rules of the road than to *demand* your right of way and end up with your car smashed. It’s also easier to do what the cop says than to get shot over it. Even if the cop is in the wrong you’re still shot.

          That said, I see why some people think that’s the road to a flat-out police state. If you comply with everything the cop says, where do you draw the line between intelligent compliance and this guy being a domineering jackass abusing you and your rights and you just taking it because he might shoot you?

        • “If you comply with everything the cop does, where do you draw the line?”

          My “take” is the situation is not one of free state, or tyranny. It is a simple matter of remaining alive in order to file a complaint (my job is not armed correction of bad cops). Arguing over police state, or not is irrelevant in the instant. The situation is potential life, or death. When you are at severe disadvantage to a guy with a gun (you are strapped into the car, the cop is free to move, politics are not the order of the day. Do what is necessary to live to “fight” another day. There are legal means to deal with rogue cops.

          You are right. Getting dead to prove a point doesn’t move the ball forward.

          But maybe I am twitchy because of a cop shooting a motorist at night, some years ago. The motorist pulled over (window was already down). Cop approached and stopped behind the left shoulder of the motorist. (essentially, out of sight of the motorist. The cop ordered the motorist to put his hands on the steering wheel, look straight ahead, and not to move hands or head. The motorist said something, and the cop placed his cocked pistol behind the ear of the motorist, and again commanded the motorist to not move an inch. Motorist moved an inch; cop fired. No one knows what the motorist was thinking, but thinking stopped pretty quickly. The cop was exonerated. The motorist was unavailable to file a complaint.

        • I agree, it’s a great way to die telling yourself you “fought the good fight” when in fact you didn’t fight the good fight. Instead, you fought a bad fight and you lost.

          Unless complaints are filed (by living people who can say what happened) nothing’s going to change.

          All I’m saying is I can sort of understand the people who have a knee-jerk reaction against it. I don’t think it’s particularly pragmatic but I can see their point. I’m not interesting in getting shot to prove a political point like this either. The cops, at least at this point, maybe not be the best but they are not acting like the Stasi either. To say that they’re “in the right” or to say that they’re acting like the Stasi/NKVD/whatever are both disingenuous statements.

  27. Don’t worry guys the Police Unions will make sure this officer is treated in the same respect as a citizen would (sarcasm). Also the wrongful death lawsuit will be paid with our taxpayer’s dollars. Nothing to see here just another Constable on Patrol doing exactly as he was trained to do.

  28. I will say what Colion Noir can’t since he doesn’t want to risk his livelihood: THE NRA FAILED PHILANDO CASTILE.

    The recently-released tape showing Castile CALMLY explaining to the officer that he was carrying and had a carry license moments before being shot to death for no reason is the textbook example of police abuse against the second amendment and its adherents.

    Fuck the NRA and fuck Wayne LaPierre, who is nothing more than a race-baiting demagogue who has contributed to the country’s descent into madness.

    • PHILADO NEVER MENTIONED HE HAD A PERMIT.
      NOT ONCE.

      Why do people keep perpetuating this lie that he announced he had a permit?
      It’s just like “Hands up, Don’t shoot” all over again.

  29. “Jomo says:
    June 21, 2017 at 13:09

    I grew up in Near North Chicago, seeing the exact same things you saw, and I saw that the behavior you espouse has done sweet f*** all to help. You are behaving exactly in the way that creates needless conflict. I rest my case.”

    So then what you’re saying is:
    * obeying the law
    * demanding that police do likewise

    “creates needless conflict”?

    What would PREVENT “needless conflict? Waiving my rights? Allowing police to run rampant, totally without accountability?

    Should Karolina Obrycka have taken her savage beating and subsequent witness intimidation at the hands of Tony Abbate’s cop friends with a wry smile?

    If that’s the kind of society you want, you’re free to live under it in Iran, Syria, or North Korea.

  30. For those of you who have mentioned marijuana use, do you truly think this is what the officer thought, or what the officer was coached to say?

    “And I thought if he’s, if he has the, the guts and the audacity to smoke marijuana in front of the five year old girl and risk her lungs and risk her life by giving her secondhand smoke and the front seat passenger doing the same thing then what, what care does he give about me. And, I let off the rounds and then after the rounds were off, the little girls was screaming.”

    I have been baked. I have been to Pink Floyd concerts where everyone was baked. I have never wet my pants out of fear because I was around someone who was high. I know that there was THC found in his system, but that lasts a very long time. Was any marijuana found in the car? His answer just sound like it was written by a lawyer and memorized by a cop who wants to avoid the consequences of his actions.

    It is sort of sad that the officer was so concerned about second-hand smoke negatively affecting the little girl, but he never considered firing shots into a car as a health risk to her.

    I am sickened by these shootings.

  31. “TX_Lawyer says:
    June 21, 2017 at 13:13

    While it is an exaggeration to say I grew up in Mayberry, it gets the point across. I moved to Houston. While there, an encounter with a police officer taught me to avoid police whenever possible. He was investigating gun shots at my apartment. They were fireworks. I knew this because I lived there. I told him it was fireworks. He accused me of doing it right before I told him which apartment was throwing the fireworks off their balcony. Having stopped me from telling him who he was there to deal with, I stopped co-operating and went inside. I decided to avoid cops. This is why people don’t co-operate with police.

    Being an asshole is seldom the right way to do anything.”

    On three occasions I have reported crimes or suspected emergencies to the Cleveland Police Department. In two out of three instances, they made it ABUNDANTLY clear that they just didn’t give a damn, to include in one case a man punched out and lying in the middle of the street unconscious.

    I’m an IT professional who does a lot of customer support, both face to face and on the phone. If 2/3 of my customer interactions were of that quality, I’d be fired immediately.

  32. I’ll leave the race-baiting aside.

    ” If he suspected Philando was a suspect in a robbery, there were ways to conduct that stop in a way that would have completely avoided the shooting altogether, but Yanez neglected to do so…”

    -Uh, like what? If you’re gonna put that out there, Colin, enlighten us with your armchair police tactics.

    “Other than Yanez’s testimony, there is nothing I read about the trial or any newly revealed facts to suggest that Philando was going for his gun.”

    – Legally, it doesn’t matter if he was ‘going for his gun.’ What matters is if it looked like he was ‘going for his gun’ to the officer. And reaching for your wallet might look exactly like reaching for a gun. Which is why you don’t do that when you just told the cop you have a gun!

    This was a clusterfuck that didn’t have to end this way. But ‘proof beyond a reasonable doubt’ is not an easy burden to reach. I hope that people carrying a gun (high or not) remember that telling a cop ‘I got a gun’ and then reaching for it is not… repeat not… a good idea. Instead tell him while keeping your hands on the steering wheel and let him process the information without putting him under time pressure where he has to decide what you’re reaching for within a second. Hell, not saying anything at all might be a better option, depending on how concealed it is.

  33. As for criminal culpability, I’m not seeing any in this case. The officer handled it professionally like he would any other routine traffic stop for a malfunctioning tail light. I heard calm and courtesy in his voice up through asking for the license and insurance. That’s when it went off the rails.

    It appears the driver provided the insurance, then proceeded to reach for something else. Was it the gun he had just declared he possessed? Maybe. In hindsight, I’d say probably not. He was more likely just reaching for his wallet to get his license. The problem is he declared that gun, putting everyone in higher stress, then FAILED to stop reaching for…..whatever…..when told to.

    Don’t give me that “conflicting orders” crap. Nobody ever got shot because they stood still, unarmed, showing their empty hands. Shootings like that happen because different parties interpret the movements differently, in light of their different orders. Open handed stillness saves you.

    He’s dead because he couldn’t follow instructions….when the instructions were still being clearly and calmly communicated. Once gun declaration was out there and the reaching continued in defiance of orders, communications broke down, panic set in, and the situation spun out of control, resulting in the shooting.

    If only the driver had just placed his hands on the wheel when told to stop reaching, he’d be alive. Race had nothing to do with it. I got felony stopped, myself, just last week. I played it totally cool and nothing happened, not even a ticket. Result.

      • You have to wonder in what alternate universe somebody is living, in order to be a part of this conversation and NOT know who Charles Kinsey and Jonathan Aledda are.

        All you need to know about how some cops feel about citizens is three names:
        * Kathryn Johnston
        * Levar Jones
        * Charles Kinsey

        To some cops and a LOT of their enablers, if you’re not a cop you’re nothing more than a reactive target.

    • Bullshit. I can link more than one video where dudes were standing or laying ROCK SOLID with their arms out open and still got lit up. You sir, win the Interwebz prize.

      • No, no, no! Charles Kinsey is completely a figment of your imagination!

        If you’re not buying THAT one, I’m sure the sociopath from the police union will tell you that Kinsey was trying to fly an airliner into the Nakatomi building… or something.

    • Wow, what a pitiful reason to kill someone. ‘…because he didn’t follow instructions. I’m almost Never follow instructions the first time because of all the combat deafness I have. Guess I’m going to be dead soon, by your reasoning Jonathan? Especially since it’s not a crime to be deaf…or stupid for that matter. Otherwise, by your logic it would be ‘whoopee, we’re ALL gonna die!’

      You’ll do well in the coming totalitarian police state.

      • I’m sure that John Kerry and the police union guy would tell you that if you’d stay’d in school, gotten a masters in intersectional transgender studies, and become a community organizer, you would HAVE “combat deafness”.

        By the way, Canadian cops are known for occasionally yelling commands at deaf people from behind, then shooting them when they don’t respond. Clearly “contempt of cop”, eh?

  34. You know who actually reasonably feared for his life? The innocent man with a gun pointed at his head. Yanez is solely responsible for escalating the situation from zero to one hundred.

    • Bingo, there was only one person yelling and pointing a weapon in the face of a citizen — and he was wearing a uniform.

      Unless the citizen was already determined to be a potentially armed and dangerous felon, I don’t understand the officer’s demeanor in this situation.

      The officer had all the resources available to keep the encounter at a conversational, professional tone and he simply failed to communicate in an effective manner.

      The officer is at fault, because he was not in control of his emotions.

      End of story. Lesson is hire competent officers that won’t piss themselves at their own shadow.

  35. I recall reading that the referenced study relied on self-reporting, of all things, and subsequent drug tests administered during medical treatment found that blacks under-reported their own drug use at an astonishingly higher rate than whites. Same study?

  36. “I have a firearm.”

    *officer panics*

    What the fuck, man. All the cops I’ve dealt with have been cool, or just neutral after finding out about my CCW. No change in stance, hand on the gun, nothing.

    And I highly doubt he was going for a firearm in order to harm the officer, because he clearly declared the handgun beforehand. This is pretty fucky.

    • That’s because this high moron Philado didn’t announce he had a CCW.
      HE ANNOUNCED HE HAD A GUN, and then DIDN”T EVEN MENTION A PERMIT or THE LOCATION OF THE GUN.

      This should be crystal clear to anyone who takes a few seconds to watch the video.
      And, I am literally a TOTAL NOOB to guns and conceal carry.
      It’s just basic common sense.
      Shaking my head.

  37. This seems to be an epidemic these days. I’m curious. For those of you who carry legally, have you altered your training in any way? What I mean is, are any of you training for the day when you will be forced to fire upon an out of control police officer to defend yourself and your family? If so, what sort of training would you recommend? Have you started carrying rounds that can penetrate a level II vest? I’m asking this in serious earnestness, because frankly, if it comes down to opening fire to protect my 4 year old child vs. not, against some random dude hopped up on adrenaline who deep down wants to be worshipped as a hero, the choice is easy for me to make.

    The problem is, we in society have almost a knee-jerk reaction against disobeying someone in a blue uniform. Maybe it would make sense to also use targets that simulate a police officer? Don’t get me wrong, I have friends and family on the force, but I think it behooves all of us to train to be realistic. After all, terrorists could also dress up as cops to take advantage of a law abiding citizen’s hesitation.

    Also, if you were in a car stop situation, when would you legitimately open fire to save your life if you suddenly realized that this guy, whom you initially thought was going to help you, turns out to be the aggressor?It’s a tough call, I know. Would it be the moment that he started reaching toward his holster? Sooner? Later? Sheesh. I think these days as CCW holders, honest citizens have even tougher snap decisions to make that police officers.

    Thoughts, comments?

  38. Facts don’t care about morality of fairness. It is a fact the officer likely over-reacted, since in hindsight we know Castile likely wasn’t murderous. It is fact Castile was not operating nominally (high as a kite with his lady) and made at least a number of worrisome decisions once the officer made contact. It is a fact, that in this scenario, the potential consequences were almost entirely more severe for Castile (though he did in fact have a gun), regardless who was at fault, which in our uncaring universe means it was more his responsibility to mitigate them, rather than the officer. Responsibility he could not exercise in his ‘enlightened’ state, hence his keeping a gun on his lap as the officer comes to the window; there’s no way a rational person would think this was a prudent course of action. Impaired and (likely paranoidedly) fixated on the gun as he was, it is entirely plausible Castile actually did reach for his weapon, even unintentionally.

    In a caring universe, stupid acts don’t merit deathly consequences. Noir is right that Castile didn’t deserve to die for anything he did (not that cops are there to determine whether anyone ‘deserves’ anything in the first place). But the man did die by his own actions, did he not? So what is ‘right’ didn’t really matter in the end. In Noir’s own story, he describes an officer acting aggressive and crazy without provocation, but even then, his friends reacting in shock were clearly contributing to the dangerous situation. From the cop’s perspective, four black youths suddenly appearing behind him while he’s distracted actually *is* a reasonable cause for some sort of defensive stance, though a gun-draw is likely a bit much, of course. But at that point, the risk is no longer on his head, but rather on the guys shrieking at him in terror –not a helpful course of action to de-escalate the situation. The solution is, in addition to being compliant and courteous to armed officers of the law such that you can, you do not surprise them (shocking, I know). An extra precaution that isn’t needed when dealing with other people, at least those who don’t know Kung Fu, but is entirely reasonable with a potentially dangerous officer.

    Two stupids don’t make a right, but when the risk is all on one of them, it’s even stupider to think the solution is the responsibility of the other guy. We always hear that blaming the victim is wrong, but expecting the aggressor to do something to prevent an attack is simply moronic (and assigning blame to one or the other after the fact isn’t really much help at all to either of them)

    • “you do not surprise them”

      A friend of mine was standing outside of the backdoor to my office. He knew I was coming out. The door doesn’t have a window or peephole or anything. He thought it was an excellent opportunity to startle me. It was. Later when talking about how much he startled me, he said “good thing you didn’t have your gun.” I responded “I did.”

      Surprising someone isn’t a good reason for them to shoot you.

  39. There is ONE thing each of us can do – OFWG or young black. Do THAT which will best protect YOUR OWN life. Never mind what the cop should/should-NOT do. YOU have NO control over that cop. NO one – especially government – will guarantee your safety from the cop’s ill behavior.

    The best I can make of my own viewpoint is as follows:

    1. – put my wallet in the door-handle “pocket” so I don’t have to reach to my hip (woman to her purse) to access my license and permit in case I get stopped.
    2. – roll down the window before the cop gets to me. Driver’s side and shotgun side because I can’t assume he will come to one window or the other.
    3. – after rolling down the window, grab wallet and stick both hands out of the window with wallet. Hands are now in view of the car’s video camera. As long as they are there with wallet, cop is going to have a hard time explaining shooting me.
    4. – try to extract license and permit from wallet before cop arrives. Hand to cop first.
    5. – wait for cop to ask for registration and insurance. Keep registration and insurance in a visor-wallet so I don’t have to reach into glove compartment.
    6. – under no circumstances put hands back into car. If cop wants to dis-arm me, open door from outside and extract self from car while keeping hands and arms through window. If he doesn’t like that tell him to call for backup. He knows – or ought to know – that he can’t shoot you for not obeying orders. He can only shoot you for perceiving a threat. You are not a threat while he can see your hands sticking out of the window.
    If someone – especially a cop – can propose a better protocol I’m all ears.

    The best thing to do to prevent another Castile incident is to ensure that the cop’s car video will show that the cop’s claim for perceiving a threat is not well founded.

  40. if a gun was pointed at me and I was given conflicting commands, wouldn’t it be better to ask first (while keeping both hands up and motionless).

    Do cops shoot you for asking?

    • “Do cops shoot you for asking?”

      Maybe. Am reminded of an event reported here a coupla years back. A team of uniformed and armed cops raided a residence. The wrong guy was asleep in the bedroom, and the team bolted in. Several of the team gave loud, intentionally conflicting commands (that is supposed to freeze the suspect, preventing reaching for a gun). The homeowner (and completely unrelated to the search and break-in) did nothing, but was shot 16 times (because he refused to follow commands). He lived, but much the worse for the wear.

      • Hold the phone here.

        Are you saying that cops intentionally give conflicting commands in an attempt to create cognitive dissonance in people (freeze them) and that this is some sort of standard procedure?

        Are you further saying that when conflicting orders are not followed, because they can’t be, they use that as an excuse to shoot?

        Again, a rephrase, you’re saying that this is intentional and that they’re trained to do this?

        • To be accurate, “I” am saying that a report of a bad no-knock arrest contained the information. “My” interpretation of the comments by police stating that confusing directives are an intentional tactic…is my understanding. “My” interpretation of the comments by police stating that the shooting was justified because the victim did not follow orders is that using conflicting commands that cause a suspect to be unable to comply represents grounds for shooting said suspect.

          Unfortunately, I have not seen any follow-up to the story. Have no idea how the legal tangle was resolved, or if the department still employs the “freeze” tactic.

        • Thanks for the link. Unfortunately, not the case I think I remember. Dang if I can find it now. Guess this is just an urban legend, now. I remember being struck by the conflicting demands tactic.

          Well, rats. Nothing to see here, folks. Move along.

        • Sam,

          Sorry, I wasn’t trying to question your motives or anything.

          I was simply flabbergasted that police would intentionally do something like that. I mean, they would kinda have to know that the combination of tactics and their response to the desired outcome of their own tactics is begging for a lawsuit or even criminal charges from a “no nonsense” DA.

          That’s the sort of shit that, were it to come out in a fully substantiated way, could lead to a mob with torches and pitchforks outside the PD. It’s so phantasmagorically fucking stupid that it boggles the mind that anyone could come up with such an idea.

          Again, I wasn’t trying to question your motives or say you were making shit up, I was making sure I read what you said correctly because… HFS that’s… well unbelievably dumb. It almost requires a committee tasked with coming up with the “best way to get our department sued”.

        • “Sorry, I wasn’t trying to question your motives or anything. ”

          Didn’t take it that way. Wanted to try to separate “fact” (?), from “my take”. Since I cannot find the original story….well….you know what that means.

  41. When I heard an evil black man had murdered a Kentucky state police officer, near the route I take to school, the local media reported the police at the time, were using a near 20 mile long search area along Hwy 24 to try and find him. I emailed my teacher at Murray State University; I told him I would not be in school that morning because I did not want the police to stop me. I carry a gun all the time. I didn’t want to be mistaken for some else. So I missed school that one day.

    A year later in Tennessee, I was stopped by a white cop for not turning my head lights on. It was getting dark outside, but the sun was still up. With my hands on the steering wheel I told him I had a gun. He did not ask. I just told him. The look of fear and surprise on his face was very surprising to me. I asked him if he wanted to see my permit he said “no I don’t need to see it.” “I just need your driver license”. I handed it to him but it dropped between the passenger seat and the door. I offered to get it for him and he said, “no, no, no, Don’t get out of the Car.” I’ll get it myself”. I had to smile at that.
    He ran my information and then gave me just a warning. I was never nervous. He was very professional. I continue to open carry. I’ve walked past police cars more than once carrying my shopping bags in one hand and my shooting hand free, resting next to my firearm. I’ve never been stopped for my open carry gun. If I was stopped again in my car, I would not tell them I had a gun, because in Kentucky and Tennessee I’m not required to.

    I think permit classes should include a short explanation on police stops. If we as a community all supporting open carry, then newcomers need to be schooled on the proper responsible actions.

    Philando Castile should not have been shot. I suspect he was not following officer instructions, and he made sudden movements. You have a right to carry a gun at least in a free state. But you have to be responsible when doing it. The officer was not white. The media is lying about that. There have been several police abuse cases involving Hispanic officers and black suspects. I don’t believe this officer is a racist. But I do believe he never should have been allowed to become a policeman.

    http://www.cnn.com/2015/09/14/us/kentucky-trooper-shot/index.html

  42. “. I couldn’t understand why the cop felt so threatened by us.”

    Couldn’t understand then but you understand now.

    Who’s the biggest threat to the safety of BLACKs in America?

    White cops, or black teens?

    as for the rest, go take FATS simulation or simunitions.

  43. What I see in the video is irrational fear by Officer Yanez instantaneously escalating the use of force continuum to deadly force.

    Irrational fear seems to be more prevalent in this millennial crop of LEO’s, not sure if it’s training that imprints an us against them mentality which they carry with them onto the streets after they’ve convinced themselves any perceived threat is much more dangerous than it actually is, or if it’s something else that’s making a small percentage of today’s LEO’s hyper fearful and quick on the trigger.

    Fact is the LE profession in the U.S is not nearly as dangerous and violent today as it was in the 60’s, 70’s, & 80’s. I don’t know the fine points of the case that led to a jury acquittal, but I surmise that it likely has something to do with an outstanding defense attorney representing Yanez or a weak and/or incompetent assistant DA preparing and presenting the prosecution.

    • Ted I’m curious, on what evidence are you basing Yanez’s “irrational fear”? Watch the video again. He is calm, even after the declaration of arms, UNTIL he sees something inside the car. Even then he gets excited quickly, hand on sidearm, but doesn’t draw immediately. When compliance to “don’t reach for the weapon” is perceived to have failed, deadly force is used. That is not irrational fear and there is a progression that can be witnessed; all be it very quick progression. Had I put myself in that same situation, I don’t know that I would have done anything differently. The obvious trick is to not get in that situation.

      But that’s the problem with stories like this. We don’t have all the video or all the facts. We have an angle, a couple of videos (one mirrored and giving incorrect information), and some audio. We see incompetence and we see stupidity. And we have the privilege of sitting behind our keyboards and assigning blame, rationale, and perspective after the fact, with time and endless analysis. Yanez didn’t get that, he had a few seconds to make a decision. And one bad decision was all it took to loose control of the situation.

      I’m not fully defending Yanez. He did some things wrong. We can all agree as a trained professional, he could/should have handled things a little differently. But on the flip side Castile was all kinds of stupid in this scenario. Should he have died for his stupidity? Duh, no. But it’s like I tell my kids – you don’t get to decide the actions of others, you just get to decide your own. Castile decided on some very stupid actions and it cost him everything

    • Escalation was quick but not instantaneous; a very clear progression could be seen and the firearm was not drawn immediately upon declaration of arms. Something witnessed inside of the vehicle, unbeknownst to us, caused Yanez’s reaction. Not sure how you are basing your assessment of “irrational fear” because all I saw, heard, and read was, at most, hyper vigilance. We have the privilege of keyboard analysis and time. Let’s all be very careful about assigning more to either individual than is actually present.

      Yanez made a couple of decisions that could/should have been different with his commands and positioning. Castile was just stupid all the way around – driving and carrying under the influence and a general lack of regard for the safety of anyone else around him.

      Incompetence+Stupidity=Tragedy 99.9% of the time. Yanez was duly fired for incompetence and Castile paid for his stupidity with his life. We don’t get to pick the actions of others, just our own. Pick wisely.

  44. I don’t think its as simple as black and white… Having grown up in the deep south (Montgomery, Al) keeping clear of the police was something everyone did if you weren’t part of the GOB party…

    Myself, a skinny, long haired teen without a Southern accent developed early on… There was an incident with the police one night, They were looking for 7-11 store robber that got away in a dark four door car… I was driving a beat to hell and back Pontiac Ventrua with four doors (of witch only three worked)

    I got pulled over on a dark back side street and lit up… Before I finished turning off the car, one officer was at my door and another was at the passenger with a shotgun pointed at me… I got the usual what’s your name … where you been… where you going… Get out of the car… I had to tell them the driver’s door was jammed and had to get out the passenger side. long story, short – I got pulled over for guilt by economic association… guns were pulled but no one died,,,

    However, that was 1970’s and Castile is now after the left has politicized the Police & the Judaical system for their own agenda… The police and those that interact with them were in a dangerous spot… Now that spot has become much more dangerous as the divide has become a political wedge to further the left’s power base.

  45. In regards to these recent shootings, racism is an overused word. Most times it’s simply poor police work. This officer didn’t do much right at alll. Take a breathe and think , if this guy has any intent to harm me, would be have informed me that he was carrying a weapon. Especially since I was standing completely exposed in the driver window. The shooting officer wasn’t white, in fact the white cop was over watching and being very nonchalant. Did race play a factor sure, maybe but the officer failed miserably. #blackguy18yearsLE

  46. Cop should have told him to put both hands on the steering wheel, then asked him which side his gun was on and where his drivers/license/id card was. Then have him step out of the car, place his hands on the hood and remove the driver’s weapon if he still felt threatened. Cops need to be quick thinkers and control their stress. This guy should not have been a cop. He didn’t know how to handle the situation. Recruits need to be well screened and trained before being put on the street. Unfortunately, most communities don’t want to pay the cost for proper recruitment and training. Don’t be surprised when the DOJ steps in and federalizes U.S. police if not in practice, in standards.

    • Absolutely correct lorddunsmore. I’ve seen and worked with some cops like this. That’s another main consideration of police work. Like the military, front line combat which is similar in stress to aggressive police beat patrol work is simply NOT an ‘equal opportunity’ profession. It takes a certain ‘personality’ and certain skills development ability to avoid this sort of tragedy. And for the most part, this can’t be learned in the academies.

  47. The girlfriend has ice-water in her veins. She was faster on the draw with her phone than the cop was with his gun. She had her YouTube live-feed active before the shots landed. Ice cold baby! Ice cold.

  48. Having read these brilliant comments one asks oneself are any of these people employed as a member of law enforcement? Has anyone of them faced the crisis that are the lot of the everyday beat cop.

    I would hate to be in these situations and I wouldn’t want to judge a cop whose life is on the line. And if any of the world beating wonders had a gun on me I’d probably be twice as hysterical as they sound.

    • Except his life wasn’t on the line, he even admitted he never saw a gun. So stop spewing emotional drivel.

      By parity of your “logic” one needs to be a rapist to know rape is wrong.

  49. Mr. Noir, thank you. This is very well said and your analogy concerning the coded language used by anti-gun folks really resonates.

  50. Tragedy all the way around. Philandro screwed up by not asking for clarification and keeping his hands on the wheel but he didn’t deserve to die. The officer screwed up with poor commands and overreacting to a confused person making a minor mistake. The underlying root cause of this tragedy is police being trained they are in a “war” and are “warriors” and must be hyper vigilant to have a chance of going home at the end of their shift. This unfortunate police culture is 100% a result of the war on drugs and the war on terror. As a constitutional republic of free men we need to get our heads right and reevaluate the nature of policing and how we are creating cops who live in a constant state of fear and heightened fight/flight response. The public also need to have some compassion for the police and the truly wretched job we ask them to do and understand they are humans just like us and are often more afraid of us than we are of them. If you interact with an officer try to look at things from his perspective and the horrible training he has received telling him he’s a “warrior” and everyone is a potential deadly threat to him. Does that excuse the bad choices and behaviors of far to many officers? Absolutely not but until we fix the culture of the warrior cop it’s the only way to keep ourselves and the officers sucked into that toxic mindset safe.

    Police are our neighbors, friends, family, and fellow citizens, they deserve respect, compassion, and to be held accountable just as we are. As voting citizens of the greatest country in the history of the world we owe it to our public servants who put their lives on the line for us to give them that respect and compassin but also fight tooth and nail to fix the toxic culture that is destroying the trust and respect on both sides of the thin blue line.

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