U.S. Air Marshal Left Loaded Gun in an Airplane Bathroom – “A federal air marshal on a flight earlier this month from England to New York left her loaded service weapon in the aircraft’s bathroom where a passenger found it, four marshals familiar with the incident said. The passenger gave the weapon to a member of the flight crew, who returned it to the air marshal. But the marshal, who is based in the New York region, failed to report the incident to her superiors, as required by agency policy, until several days later. The incident happened on April 6, aboard a Delta flight from Manchester to Kennedy International Airport.” Looks like Delta will have to start zip-tying air marshals’ guns into their holsters.

Pelican Gun Cases Bans Guns? – “Virginia Citizens Defense League member Carter Garnett, sent me a photo of a “no guns” sign which says, “No concealed weapons allowed on this property,” which is posted on the door of Pelican Products in Front Royal, Va. Pelican Products produces custom cases and inserts for guns and other items. The cases are designed on the Internet by the client and the resulting inserts are then shipped to the client. I contacted a manager, who was polite and professional. He said that Pelican is not open to the public the way a store in a mall would be. Generally the only customers who come into the facility are larger clients with an appointment. The sign is there because they’ve had problems with people from ‘agencies’ leaving loaded guns on their property.” Which “agencies” do you think were the offenders?

Well, that depends . . . .357 Magnum Recoil: Is It Too Much? – “There is a cost for getting that superior bullet penetration and expansion we see with the magnum loads, and the price has to be paid in recoil. A lot of people seem to think that recoil management is simply a matter of pain tolerance. Well, you can grit your teeth and shoot your way through the discomfort, but you can’t defy the laws of physics. At some point, the recoil and muzzle flip and muzzle blast are going to have an adverse effect on your ability to hit the target. So the question is, ‘Where do we draw the line?’ How much recoil is so much that it is no longer worth the potential gain in ballistic effectiveness?”

Franklin Armory™ BFSIII™ For HK PRE-ORDERS – “Franklin Armory™ is proud to announce we will start taking pre-orders for the BFSIII™ for HK. Pre-Orders will start at on Apr 28, 2017 8:00am (PT). You will be able to order online or at the NRA show in person. The Trigger is estimated to start shipping the last week of July. So hold your spot inline and Pre-Order on Apr 28, 2017 8:00am (PT)! The BFSIII™ for HK is a 3-Position Trigger. In position 3 it will fire 1 round on Pull and 1 round on Release. This makes it the fastest semi-automatic trigger on the market. The BFSIII™ is ideal for Tactical and Competition use. The BFSIII™ provides greatly reduced split times between rounds and the ability to place two separate shots into a tighter group.”

How about starting with the four rules? . . . NFL To Broncos Aqib Talib: Take A Firearm Safety Course – “Members of the Denver Broncos ‘No Fly Zone’ secondary are relieved that star Aqib Talib won’t face a suspension over the shooting in Dallas last year in which the All-Pro cornerback admitted he accidentally shot himself. … Talib received a letter from the league recently informing him he wouldn’t be suspended or fined over the shooting. However, the NFL also notified Talib that he ‘must complete a firearm safety course and must supply the league a list of all firearms he owns,’ NFL spokesman Brian McCarthy said.”

Call Alabama’s FFLs Deacon Blues . . . Alabama is No. 1 … for losing guns – “The number of guns reported lost from federally licensed firearm dealers and pawn shops in Alabama is the highest in the country, according to a new government report. The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives report shows Alabama’s number of lost weapons in 2016 more than tripled from the previous year, going from 277 to 842. Four years ago, the number of lost guns in the state was 119. The report also shows thefts of firearms from licensed dealers in Alabama has gone up significantly, too — from 204 in 2015 to 340 in 2016.”

What, he couldn’t have just gone to a whore house or bought a Corvette like every other middle-aged guy? . . . FBI: Austin man with 13 guns plotted mass shooting for 50th birthday – “Steven Boehle wanted to celebrate his 50th birthday last week with a mass shooting and had obtained 13 firearms and more than 1,100 rounds of ammunition to carry out the plan, a federal agent testified Thursday. Boehle, of Austin, called his April 13 birthday ‘Holy Day,’ according to a confidential source who tipped off authorities to the scheme and described the defendant as someone who ‘exhibits sovereign citizen extremism ideology.’ The source also revealed Boehle requested that the source videotape the attack, FBI agent Bryant Berthold testified in U.S. District Court.”

Apparently? Police: 2 Boys Accused in School Shooting Plot Had No Guns . . . “Police say two students accused of planning to carry out a shooting at their suburban Chicago middle school didn’t have any weapons nor apparently any access to guns. Police in Skokie said in a statement that a student at McCracken Middle School learned that she was a possible target and told school officials. Police responded Wednesday and took two boys, ages 13 and 14, into custody. Police announced Thursday evening that no weapons were recovered and that the boys, who are from Skokie, have been released pending possible charges as juveniles.”


Racking a pistol with your finger on the trigger? I think Mr. Fournet’s students here have more problems than just racking.

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58 Responses to Vedder Holsters Daily Digest: A Forgotten Gun, .357 Recoil and a Severe Mid Life Crisis

  1. I dunno. I just don’t seem to have the problem with recoil that’s reported online, with any gun of any caliber. .40 doesn’t “snap.” .45 feels roughly the same as a 9mm to me. I can shoot .357 and .44 without crying all day. 30-06 never bothers me. 12 guage just makes me feel good inside. I think a lot of people just let it get to their heads too much.

    • It’s not the cartridge, so much as what you shoot it in. 44 Special or 44 Mag in a Ruger Vaquero no big deal, but full power defensive 44 Special in a 22 Oz Charter Arms Bulldog caused a painful hammer bite. Needless to say that gun got sold to a guy who thought he was more macho than me.

    • There’s more to it than just firing them. The weapon used. The fitness of the shooter. Whether or not the shooter has a high tolerance to pain. I suspect your tolerance is quite high. LOL

      • As someone who has incurred physical injury on a couple of occasions, I can say that if your life is in jeopardy there is almost no end to the amount of physical pain one can endure, in fact not even notice, in defen se of his/her life. Some weapons might not be pleasant on the range, and realigning the sights may take an extra fraction of a second for follow up shots, if you employ those weapons in def ense of your life you won’t even notice the recoil.

    • That all depends on what you’re firing the .357, .40, or .44 through. Full size revolver? No problem. HK USP Compact .40? Easy peasy.

      S&W Airlite .357, Kahr CM40, S&W Mountain Gun? That’s a bad day. I don’t think I’ve ever fired anything as unpleasant as 125 grain Remington SJHPs through an Airlite.

    • If someone can shoot a .22lr more accurately than a .50ae, then at some point in between they’re starting to psychologically and physiologically compensate for the power of the round.

    • I also enjoy shooting my 12 gauge guns. But then, we know how to do it.
      My Smith 28-2 with 4″ bbl is fun to shoot, too, but then, it weighs the proverbial ton.
      A friend recently bought two compact pistols, in .40 and .45. I can outshoot him both in speed and grouping (with his own new guns), but the flip hurts my trigger finger. Not much of a problem during actual shooting, though. Probably, if I continue shooting them, I would need to come up with a grip that works (my hands are bigger than normal; so am I). My 9s are fine, but not compacts.
      I used to have a Ruger Super Blackhawk with 10″ bbl, but it aggravated the arthritis in my elbow, so had to go.
      The point is this: shoot what you can, eschew those guns you can’t. There’s nothing that says you have to shoot everything.

    • This past week it was also reported that an FBI (as I recall) agent traveling to Asia (Japan, Korea, Taiwan?) forgot she had hers in her purse. Nobody knew apparently until she arrived at her destination and immediately turned it in to the authorities there.

      Also, a member of a flight crew (pilot I think) was caught carrying onto his flight.

      When I was working anti-hijack in the USAF, we confiscated many knives (especially switchblades which were standard issue to AF flight crews). Had to take a grunt off his flight to Vietnam when it was discovered he had a Bowie taped to his thigh. He was afraid it would be found in his stored baggage. The Army gave it back to him and he caught a flight out the following day with the Bowie nicely packed in his duffle bag in the hold. And these happened back in 1970-71. Nothing has really changed.

  2. “…obtained 13 firearms and more than 1,100 rounds of ammunition to carry out the plan”

    Exactly why magazine limits are useless bits of fluff that do nothing but bother everyone except the criminal.

    • Not just magazine limits, but this guy went through at least 13 background checks and the Feds never suspected him of plotting a terrorist act.

      It’s almost like background checks aren’t capable of identifying would be criminals and its us, friends and family that have to protect ourselves and each other. I’m completely dumbfounded at why a federal government agency could display such incompetency….

  3. They more than likely carry the .357 because of the 95 percent of one shot stops. In a high jacking situation you don’t have a number of chances.

    • Did you know that 87.6% of statistics quoted on the internet are pulled straight out of someone’ ass and have zero basis in fact?

    • Probably use frangile ammo as well because they do not want a round to enter the cockpit and take out the crew.

        • I can verify that. When found out that was the round, I asked the air marshal that told me if he was concerned about over penetration. He told me no, that they understood that they might have to shoot through a seat or through some person to get to their target. They wanted the extra penetration.

  4. Wow…so the air Marshall gal left her gat in the John and won’t get punished? That’s a milehigh joke… of course there’s a price to pay shooting. Shooting a 357 out of a little snubby hurts. Hell shooting a KeltecPf9 made my hand bleed. It’s a controlled explosion in your hand. I embraced all that 6 years ago when I shot for the 1st time in 40years. I see little girls shooting big guns (and calibers)and handling it well. It is what it is…

    • The PF9 has horrible ergos. I will put 200 rounds downrange with a CM9, but the PF9, yikes. Just trying to hold the thing so you don’t drop the magazine is PITA and I sold mine after the barrel lug broke off. That is the one gun that just plain hurts.

  5. MY XD45 is very tame, tamer than my SD9VE honestly. The weight or the nature of the .45 ACP round may be part of it, but I have as of yet to handload for it.

    That said on take on .357 is that I would not want to shoot it in an LCR or air weight j-frame, but in something like my 2.5″ or 3″ model 66 they work just fine. Taking good weight. I could see some trade off, but I would say that the last round of my .357 will always be loaded heavy just because you don’t have to worry about a follow up shot.

    • It does NOT hurt to fire a .357 full house magnum from an LCR; from ‘J’ frame, absolutely. The Smith is an outdated design that does not hold up to the better, more modern designed LCR. Hell, a .480 Ruger shoots much softer than a .357 J.

  6. Physics being physics, everyone has to pick their own balance between speed, power and weight. Everyone has their own threshold for recoil tolerance and carry weight tolerance, but within those perimeters, the more powerful rou nd you shoot the slower accurate follow up shots will be, and the less necessity there will be to make those shots. I never felt undergunned when I carried 9mms with 16 or 18 ro unds on tap because I knew I could put a lot of ro unds on target fast. Equally, I do not feel undergunned with 6 rou nds of full house .357 magnum Double Taps and a speed strip with 6 more, because I know that I can hit center mass and hit it hard. Follow up shots will take an extra quarter second, but that’s just part of the deal.

    Now there are inherent advantages to a revol ver that don’t concern foot/pounds of energy, so for some people carrying an LCR makes more sense than carrying an LCP, but in both cases you’re accepting some significant compromises in power, accuracy and recoil management. However if you’re willing to pack a mid sized or full sized handgun, you have a choice of strategies – hit hard or hit often. If you’re picking the revolver you have eliminated the hit often option, so you’d better hit hard. Use the stoutest magnum load you can handle and don’t worry about that extra quarter second it takes to make follow up shots.

    BTW, I checked out Lucky Gunner’s ballistic gel tests and was a bit disappointed that they only used one single full power .357 magnum load (from Buffalo Bore).

    • And there it is in a nutshell, Gov. It all comes down to physics. My SP101 rarely gets fed magnum ammo – mostly .38 +Ps and regular Specials but I like being able to feed the hot stuff if the situation calls for it.
      Seems like I have this conversation every day at work explaining to a new shooter how and why big guns are easier to shoot than little ones.
      If that Security Six I’ve been dreaming of for years gets checked off my wish list and strapped to my hip, I’ll be packing full-house magnums then but the snubbie will have to be content with lighter fare.

      • ‘I like being able to feed the hot stuff if the situation calls for it.’

        Self defe nse would seem to be a situation that called for the hot stuff. Experiment a bit, the Buffalo Bore, Double Tap loads might be a bit too much, but it only takes $25 and find out. Otherwise the more traditional (Remi ngton, Fe deral, etc) loads should get you ~425-450ft/lbs out the SP. I’d use whatever you think is the most you can tolerate and then shoot it enough to be comfortable with the load. Maybe every time out run a couple of cylinders of the hot stuff and then back off to the plinking stuff. With only 5 roun ds on tap I wouldn’t get too excited about fast follow up shots. Most self def ense situations happen at such close range that you won’t even be aiming.

  7. I’ve never shot one, but I imagine that one caliber that certainly has too much for recoil for me is .500 S&W Magnum. I’ve seen the videos. that’s enough. Nor do I have any great urge to shoot .44 Mag out of a revolver; .45 ACP and .45 Colt is plenty (and out of a full size gun, rather pleasant).
    I have a SAA in .38/.357 that I imagine would not bee too harsh with full house magnums (I’ll have to try some day just for kicks), but then again, it is fairly heavy at 38 oz and has a 7.5″ barrel that would mitigate much of the recoil. Similarly, 45 Colt loaded to 850 fps is quite nice out of a SAA. But I would not care to try either out of a snubbie. I didn’t own a revolver for yeas because my first experience was with a snubbie, an Airweight, that resulted in no hits on target.

    • Don’t let the .44 rem mag scare you. In an all-steel gun with a 4″ or longer barrel and a good grip it’s pushy but not arm-breaking. My 5-1/2″ Ruger Vaquero has no rubber to cushion the blow, just steel and wood – it can be shot one handed as long as you’re not in a hurry to get it back on target.
      As for your SAA, the biggest difference you’ll notice between Specials and Magnums is the noise – go take it out for a dance, it’ll be a hoot.

      • What he said –

        Mark, .44 Mag out of a revolver isn’t a problem with enough sheer mass in the revolver. A heavy pistol scope on it helps greatly.

        I have no urge to shoot full-house mag out of a model 29, however.

        It’s not .22lr, but it won’t tear your hand off. The concussion from the muzzle blast is ‘shock and awe’, but in a good way…

    • Mark N.,

      I watched an average woman with very little shooting experience shoot a .44 Magnum revolver quite comfortably. There were two key elements:
      (1) Someone taught her proper technique (which is really simple).
      (2) It was a LARGE revolver.

      In terms of technique, you need a firm two-handed grip and you must allow your arm to bend slightly at the elbow with recoil. In other words you manage and work with the recoil rather than trying to stop it (which is impossible).

      And if you have a 50+ ounce revolver, the weight of the revolver soaks up a lot of the recoil impulse.

      Oh, and get a ported barrel if possible!

  8. The NFL is making that guy submit a list of all of the guns he owns? That’s none of their dang business. Gestapo, much?

    And I agree with the video regarding the hot recoil loads. Sure, maybe you can take the pain, but more than likely, the accuracy and repeatability will go down, no matter how “tough” you are. Plus, particularly in a snub nose 2″ or less barrel, you aren’t gaining that much velocity over a .38 spc. +p round to likely make that extra recoil and muzzle blast worth it.

    • So, I stand corrected on the velocity difference in a 2″ snub nose between .38 spc. +p and .357 mag. Luckygunner’s tests show around a 300 fps difference in similar grain bullets: mid 800s compared to mid 1100s. Big difference. Anyway, just thought I’d point out my own mistake now that I’ve seen the labs tests. So glad that they do these tests.

      • Also, the only full power load Lucky Gunner tested was the Buffalo Bore with a lead free bullet. That got 563ft/lbs out of the 2″. A lot of those loads are squarely in the 9mm power range, although they might make for a good compromise in a lightweight snubby.

        • I carry Double Tap 158gr in my 3″ GP 100 WC and they’ll definitely get your attention, but they’re not painful at all. I’d think shooting them out of a LCR that weighs half as much as the GP would be quite painful.

  9. So the lady Marshal left her gun in the crapper…

    There’s a really good joke in there somewhere, but I’m having difficulty finding it.

    • Don’t worry about the Sky Marshal chick, she won’t be punished, wouldn’t look good for the agency.

  10. Sooooo, is that BFSIII trigger a machine gun then? It fires one round on pull and release, does it skirt the definition of more than one round fired per trigger pull because you’re not literally pulling the trigger for that second shot?

    • Yes, but I think it is one of those things that the ATF may change its mind on.

      I don’t recall the particulars, so do some research before buying, or get a lawyer to do the research.

    • The ATF definition for a “machine gun” is that it fires more than one round for each function of the trigger. I believe this is found in the NFA of 1934, but not positive that it’s in the law vs an interpretation. You pull the trigger, one function. You release the trigger, one function. There are a few binary triggers on the market available that can be delivered to your door. And unlike TX_Lawer, IANAL….

      • That’s my basic understanding of it.

        If you want one, contact the company’s customer service and ask if they have a letter from the ATF on it, and if not, what makes this legal. That’s where I would start if Google didn’t make it clear that the ATF is okay with it.

        I really don’t care what the statute says until after charges are filed. I want ATFs interpretation. Let someone else test the ATF in court.

  11. I was in a coffee shop, a local Gestapo can charging in and ran to the bath room. After 5 minutes later he came out, I pointed out to my lady friend that his holster was empty. We had a great laugh about it. I told the staff about it and they ask me to check the bathroom. There was his weapon sitting on the towel thing. The manager called the cops and reported it. The cop came back about an hour later looking for his gun. Recoil: GP 100 125 grain jacket hollow point, 1,400 feet per second mussel very little recoil

  12. “How much recoil is so much that it is no longer worth the potential gain in ballistic effectiveness?”

    Assuming that we are talking about self-defense against human attackers, I am pretty confident the maximum “effective” caliber is .44 Magnum with full size (6 inch barrel) revolvers. The next step up from .44 Magnum is .454 Casull which produces significantly greater recoil than .44 Magnum … and provides way more energy and “stopping power” than necessary.

    Against humans .44 Magnum has AMPLE stopping power. My preferred load would be 180 grain semi-jacketed hollowpoints with a muzzle velocity around 1600 fps out of a 6-inch barrel. That’s just over 1,000 ft-lbs. of energy. That WILL put a human down with one shot to the middle of their torso EVERY time.

    • EVERY time? I remember a story from an older cousin of mine who served in Vietnam. He said that on the firebase, some of the Marines carried shotguns with buckshot. Seems that the communist sappers (like suicide bombers) could be shot with rifles and keep on coming, because they were high on drugs. The shotguns were for shooting them in the legs and making them fall down. Don’t know the veracity of this info, just a story, obviously. However, I do know that there are plenty of mind-altering substances out there that can allow someone to absorb a LOT of damage and keep on coming, at least for long enough to do someone serious harm. Not saying that .44 Mag isn’t a powerful round, nor that it has a bad track record, but very few things have a 100% record.

      • Heartland Patriot,

        I have also heard witness accounts of soldiers taking rifle rounds to the torso who continue functioning for some amount of time.

        I would point you to three factors:
        (1) Plenty of military engagements involve shots to several hundred meters. At several hundred meters, those bullets have slowed considerably.
        (2) Most/all of such occurrences happen with 5.56mm NATO ammunition which uses tiny (.22) bullets.
        (3) Military personnel use full-metal jacket Spitzer bullets almost exclusively as far as I know.
        When you combine those three common factors, those bullets often “zip through” a human body, only creating a tiny permanent wound channel. I can easily see how a soldier with such a wound could keep fighting for some amount of time.

        I am talking about ranges limited to about 20 meters and a platform that delivers a bullet which expands on impact to something like 3 times the diameter (and hence 9 times the surface area) of 5.56mm NATO full-metal jacketed Spitzer bullets. Such an expanded bullet (without a Spitzer point) is going to impart WAY more trauma. Is it possible that someone jacked up on PCP would still be capable of attacking after taking such a bullet anywhere close to the middle of the torso? Such events would be so rare as to fall under the realm of statistically insignificant.

        So, to answer your question, “Every time?” I am going to go with, “Yes, every time.” … given the application that I described above.

  13. I like the Vedder Holsters video placed here. It seems fair since they are apparently paying to sponsor this section of the site.

    I may be a bit biased though, since I have one of their IWB holsters and absolutely love it.

    • That would be great, you know, up until that time when one of the other FAMs sees you with the gun and shoots you in the face… Seriously though, keeping the gun makes for great hyperbole, but some people on this site really would keep the gun. You think once this dumbass finally realized she’d lost her heater in the lavatory, they wouldn’t immediately take control of the aircraft and start looking for it? That’s the definition of an exigent circumstance, albeit one that she created. Or another option? Land the plane and screen every single passenger… and charge the “offender?” SMH.

      • That ‘free’ gun you found and kept could easily turn out to be the most expensive thing you ever got.

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