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In a painstakingly researched and thoughtfully reported piece (click the image above to view it) from Sacramento’s kcra.com, the threat presented to the populace by the spreading scourge that are “ghost guns” is laid out for Mr. and Mrs. John Q. Public and the rest of the low information types watching at home. Reporterette Melinda Meza rounded up – or, more likely, was rounded up by – BATFE agent Graham Barlowe to let Golden Staters know that there’s trouble, right there in River City. With a capital ‘T’ and that rhymes with ‘G’ and that stands for GHOST GUN! The problem is that, against all odds, California governor Jerry Brown vetoed Senator Kevin de Leon’s bill last fall that would have required anyone cobbling together his own firearm — even a shadetree gunsmith working in his own garage — to ask our friends in Washington for permission and a serial number . . .

Of course, the report neglects to mention that if the bill had been signed into law, it would only be observed by law-abiding citizens rather than the bloodthirsty killers de Leon and the ATF claim to be concerned about. For some reason, criminals show a puzzling tendency to avoid compliance with regulations such as these. Still, control is the objective here and the legality of crafting your own unregistered gun — something that’s been legal in all 50 states since, well, forever — presents an unsustainable challenge to authority.

Which means it’s time to rouse the rabble and let them know what a danger un-serialized firearms pose. As Agent Barlowe told Meza,

“People buying these know there is no paper trail — no way to trace, no accountability.”

Well yes. But that’s only part of an 80% lower’s charm. There’s also the fact that they’re inexpensive, giving the average Joe the ability, with the application of a little elbow grease, to make his own rifle.

And now, with the advent of 3D printing and tools such as Defense Distributed’s provocatively named Ghost Gunner CNC mill, it’s about to get even simpler. Which means it must be stopped.

“It’s as easy as making a pizza in an oven. You put it in there. You lock it into the jig, and push a button, and the machine does the rest of the work.”

Again, the goal is control. Hence the need to raise the alarm. As reporterette Meza intones,

“Federal agents say buyers of these types of guns are buyers who would not be able to buy a gun legally.”

A claim for which they have precisely zero proof. Gang bangers and C-store jackers have never had trouble coming by firearms through extra-legal means. And it’s far easier to buy one than to go to the trouble of building one. In places with far stricter gun laws than California, even fully automatic weapons can always be had. And as for the serial number issue, God knows no criminal mastermind has ever conceived of anything so nefarious as filing a serial number off his gat to thwart a subsequent trace.

Never mind all that, though. The ATF and KCRA have a point to drive home. How best to do it? Agent Barlowe apparently decided that pulling numbers directly from his rectal region was as good a strategy as any.

“There could be as many as 500,000 on California streets right now,” Barlowe told KCRA 3.

Nice use of a weasel word. There could be. That’s a number that’s so wildly improbable that only a federal employee would have had the straight-faced chutzpah to blurt it into a microphone. Still, the average guy on the street will probably never spot that as the flopping whopper it is.

Finally, as the rhetorical cherry on this journalistic cow pie sundae, why not end things with an inflammatory non sequitur just to leave the folks at home with something to think about.

“When you’re asking yourself, why would someone spend $5,000 on a machine gun that they’re purchasing from a convicted felon gang member, I think the answers are all bad.”

Somewhere we’ve taken a detour from 80% lowers and pizza ovens to enterprising would-be Dillingers buying Tommy guns on the street corner from the Cripps and the Bloods. Right there in Stockton! Scared yet?

“The bill’s author, Senator Kevin De Leon is pushing for passage once again. He says laws have to keep up with technology like 3D printers which are being used to make guns.”

 Keep the faith, Californians.

 [h/r DrVino]

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72 Responses to OMG! Ghost Guns! In California! OMG!

  1. I was pleasantly surprised by Brown showing some common sense on the issue when he vetoed it the first time. Wonder if the state senator bothered to go find some of the folks who’ve actually built one or two of these?

    Additionally, he doesn’t seemed to have followed the ATF crackdown which has made CNC milling much more difficult for the average Joe to do. A place that sells you the lower can’t provide you the CNC milling machine use.

  2. NOTE: One of our admins from our pro gun group has contacted Senator De Leon.
    Specifically his staffer stated that they will NOT be bringing back the “GHOST” gun bill again.

    We still need to remain vigilant but when a staffer coughs that up, it probably means he has bigger things to deal with. To that end they stated they would be contacting Mrs. Meza for her error.

    • Not to be skeptical, but we should believe a Democratic staffer to:
      A. tell the truth?
      B. know the truth?
      C. know what s/he is talking about when it comes to firearms or firearm issues?

      Then of course, there “could”, to quote the lying assed old ‘scruff faced’ Barlowe, be a new, revised, similarly restrictive “ghost gun” bill in the making from De Leon or one of his rabidly anti-gun legislative colleagues, for which Mr. ATF mouthpiece is helping to lay the groundwork with his bogus fantasy comments.

      I don’t trust these government or political, or any other opportunistic antis one inch in anything they say or do.

    • Sorry Daniel if my contemptuous tone came through.

      It wasn’t directed toward you or your comment. It’s my disgust showing through about the liars in government using their positions of trust to lie and hoodwink the vast unenlightened American public on matters of the gun most citizens otherwise have no easy way of knowing about.

    • Even if this bill were to pass, Wouldn’t felons be “exempt” from registering any firearms they manufactured because of the 5th ammendment? Wasn’t there a pretty significant SCOTUS case that paralleled this issue? Just throwing that out there.

  3. Wow….500,000? Really? He really truly thinks that even .012 percent of the population has put together an 80% lower? I doubt .012% of california’s population even knows what a jig is, much less can operate one. If there were 10,000 of them in California I would be surprised, and even then 99% of those are going to be built by respectable citizens and be California compliant.

    • Cali had a population of around 39 million, so 500k is closer to 1.3%.

      I also doubt that there’s anywhere close to 1 ghost gun per hundred people in CA. Illegal-in-CA guns and magazines, maybe, but not ghost ARs.

      • It is actually even worse than that John. While there might be 39 million people in California, several of them would NEVER make a ghost gun. For starters, we can safely eliminate everyone under the age of 15 and everyone over the age of 80. Next, we can eliminate most of the people between the ages of 15 and 18 and between the ages of 65 and 79. Finally, we can eliminate almost all women. When you do that, the remaining population of people who might possibly make a ghost gun would be something like 15 million people at most. Thus 500,000 ghost guns from a population of 15 million people means 1 ghost gun for every 30 people? No way!!!

    • If there are 500,000, then the fact still remains that next to 0 crimes have ever been committed with one so regulating it is nonsensical and unnecessary and De Leon should stop wasting time on completely worthless legislation.

      That should be the argument against it from other legislators and De Leon’s constituents. STOP WASTING YOUR TIME AND OUR RESOURCES!

      • Or actually do something that would increase the safety for the law abiding. Like changing the law so all sheriffs have to operate as shall-issue. Get rid of the Handgun roster, the standard capacity magazine ban, the loaded chamber indicator requirement, the micro-stamping requirement, the fixed magazine/bullet button requirement.

        All things that inhibit or prevent access to weapons best-suited for self-defense for the law abiding.

        • Just anything that would do anything. The effort required to draft, sponsor, push, lobby for, edit, re-edit, re-lobby, answer questions on, etc etc a piece of legislation is huge. Far too much time and effort to spend it on something that’s completely worthless. It doesn’t matter if this bill is scrapped for something on a totally different topic like transportation or homeless population or environment or building codes or what. But this is a complete waste of time for the publicly-stated reasons he’s pursuing it. Naturally, the real reasons aren’t stated and aren’t a waste of his time (registration, confiscation, bans, eventual civilian disarmament, etc).

      • —-then the fact still remains that next to 0 crimes have ever been committed—

        But How would we KNOW! Since we can’t track them you see! We have to track them so we can See if a Crime has been committed with them!

        Duh – it’s just common sense!

    • Isn’t a jig a form of Irish dance? Sorry a evil little leprechaun made me type that. But that is what most in Cali will think of when they hear the word Jig.

      • this is close to saint patricks day, I vote that the pots at the end of the rainbow have evil black rifles in them. cause you know, jigs.

  4. I’m so sick of this crap. The laws are bad enough here in Cali (yes, the weather’s nice, but that’s it). Rabble, rabble, rabble, we must do SOMETHING!!!

  5. Well, here’s hoping the job in NM continues to work out. I’d hate to have to move back to CA to find work.

    Heck, most of the magazines and half the firearms in the family “arsenal” are already illegal there … a thought which usually brings a smile to my face. 🙂

  6. That shot-up SUV that they keep showing–weren’t all those bullet holes put there by the cops? And the dead hostage–same thing, right? Or not? Not that kcra is interested in clearing that up…

    • Allegedly one of the gang bangers/ robbers in the Stockton incident had a home-built AK. The only other crime of which I am aware was a thug who put an AR pistol upper on an AR rifle lower, thereby creating an SBR. Other than that, there are claims that “ghost guns” have been seized and labeled “crime guns” because they were seized from persons engaged in illicit activities and/or who were prohibited persons, not that the AR or AK had actually been used to commit a crime.

  7. I have to deal with the folks that believe this crap everyday.

    CALIFORNIANS: Don’t you dare move out of state. Stay. Fight the fight. We need you talking to people about this kind of BS and voting.

    I say again: Do not abandon us. Help us. Get involved. Talk to people.

    • Oh, and build a ghost gun. It’s an interesting hobby and you learn much more about the ArmaLite 15 components.

      Warning- they’re kind of like Legos and you’ll find yourself buying other pieces/parts/upgrading/swapping and building another variant. You know, having fun and enjoying life.

    • CALIFORNIANS: Don’t you dare move out of state. Stay. Fight the fight. We need you talking to people about this kind of BS and voting.

      I’ve known more than a few people who said this sort of thing to me. They’re the same folks who cry around election time that their vote doesn’t matter.

      Shut up and go someplace where people give a EXPLETIVE DELETED about your freedom and quit trying to bring people who DON’T back around. I Sure as hell miss the weather in Santa Monica, but hell will have frozen over and it’ll be colder than tits before I go back so it wouldn’t matter anyway.

      Suck it up and and shut your hole, or get out. The gun laws are a direct reflection of the brilliant job generations of parisans have done gerrymandering your (our?) state and you can’t EXPLETIVE DELETED that particular disaster.

      Sincerely,

      a Proud California ex-Pat

  8. The aristocrats dislike the printing press for the same reasons.
    Funny how the folks in charge and the folks who slobber at the jock of those in charge fight tooth and nail to maintain the relative dark age of the time.

    It’s okay as long as it’s difficult and only a select few can participate. Make it too easy and whoa Nelly soon everybody will be able to read. That’s just not safe.

  9. “When you’re asking yourself, why would someone spend $5,000 on a machine gun that they’re purchasing from a convicted felon gang member, I think the answers are all bad.”

    Uh, yeah- maybe because the illegal alien convicted gang member can actually get a hold of a machine gun from his sources in Mexico so he’s willing to sell it that cheap. Perhaps enforcement of immigration laws and cessation of the aiding and abetting of immigration violation would address the concern better than any ‘ghost gun’ law– which is directed at semi-auto weapons. Hmmmmm?

    • Or elimination of the NFA, so that those machine guns could be bought legally for $1100, putting the crooks out of business.

  10. We should all be very happy that there are idiots in the world like Kevin de Loon, Meza (not Mensa) and Barlowe (bar low — how appropriate). Those jackwagons from the shallow end of the gene pool keep our end deep.

    • I just hope Ms. Meza had her Depends on when she was doing that report, or had a dry pair of undies to change into after that exercise in panty-wetting.

  11. They conveniently left out the fact that the Bank of the West employee was killed by gunfire from police, not the perpetrators of the robbery. And was the AK used in the robbery a “Ghost Gun” that was assembled from an 80% lower? Or did they include that firearm because it was just scary enough looking to stir public fear?

    I also believe that the representative oversimplified the process of finishing an 80% lower for an AR. The machine just doesn’t “…take care of the rest” once you clamp the lower in place. That is a gross misrepresentation of a process that requires a machinist knowledge to mill with precision and very tight tolerances in order for the weapon to function properly.

    Just one of the MANY reasons I would never surrender so many of my freedoms to reside in Feinsteinastan.

    • I doubt it was a ghost gun used in Sac… I believe it was an ak pistol. Are there any companies doing 80% AK recievers?

      • Yes there are lots of companies selling 80% AK lowers. It would still require specialized tools to finish properly and not something just any gang banger is going to attempt to put together. A few places sell them heat treated with the rails welded in place but even then without a press, rivet jig, head space gauges, correct drill bits and some experience it would be far more trouble to build than to just steal one.

        • I milled out the fire control pocket of an AR lower with a hand drill, a dremel and a few files. Not even a jig. And no prior experience. It may not be very pretty inside, but it runs just fine, TYVM.

        • Sorry, you can’t refer to 80% AK lowers without bringing in the infamous shovel turned into an AK. Favorite line as he contemplates how an AK looks with a shovel handle as a stock and wonders what to do with the business end:

          http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/threads/179192-DIY-Shovel-AK-photo-tsunami-warning!

          “Well, this is not the end, it’s a beginning, because one night I was drinking with the shovel and contemplating what to do with it. It’s funny, when you are sober, you can’ understand how a shovel can share with you a delicious drink of vodka. So I said to shovel, I will re-unite you with your handle and we had another round of drinks to celebrate! … and then I cut it up.”

      • I don’t know who makes them, but they were advertising them in Sportsman’s Guide a while back.

    • I’m told a CNC machine can be a push button operation. They’re computer controlled so they can just be programmed to machine it out. That’s why the ATF came down on a bunch of businesses here in CA that were selling the lower, than leading the purchaser into a backroom where there was a CNC machine. ATF basically has said that isn’t a home built lower, that business is manufacturing. Similarly, some businesses letting folks (or groups of folks from a lower supplier) just use machines set up with the right program have been challenged- ATF at the working level pushing that the user needs to set the machine up themselves.

      As far as tight tolerances. No, AR lowers really don’t require tight tolerances and can be routed out with a hand held power router with the right jig. It seems the most critical spec are the trigger pin and safety holes relative to the top of the upper which is fairly accurately controlled by the jig. Depth and width of the trigger pocket itself doesn’t require great precision.

  12. “When you’re asking yourself, why would someone spend $5,000 on a machine gun that they’re purchasing from a convicted felon gang member, I think the answers are all bad.”

    Because it’s cheaper than the 20K I’m about to fork over for a legal one?

    • You are not! Damn, there are too many people having more fun than me.

      You’re not related to Red’s, are you?

      • Yeah, I’ve got the itch, for something with a giggle switch. Trying to decide between an MP5, and an M16. Not related to Red’s in any way though.

  13. The only way to save California is to get some kind of Amendment that doesn’t infringe upon that right …ohh wait nevermind.

  14. 500K “ghost” guns??? Considering that the population is closing on 40 million, the idea that ~1% would build their own AR’s really doesn’t surprise me.

    • Actually, the “ghost gun” concept wasn’t about building an AR in general, since most people who do that buy a serialized complete lower receiver through an FFL. The big panic was that people buy an unfinished 80% receiver and finish it themselves, without a serial number being required. And as others have pointed out, the percentage of that would be so low as to not even register as significant.

  15. what a crock. not to mention a criminal can get 5 guns off the street for what he will pay for one CNC machine.

  16. Stockton gets it’s illegal guns from the ports, then moved inland through the delta. What would inspire gang-bangers to actually work to make/learn how to make guns? Fear mongering at it’s finest.

    • Yep- not to mention, after he’s created the lower he’s still got to get a hold of all the other parts and assemble…

  17. There has been introduced a ghost gun bill in the US Congress modeled after De Leon’s bill. It is not likely to go anywhere at this time, but the idea is out there, and for whatever reason, the ATF, probably as part of its program to ban all home-built guns, h as hopped on the wagon. The horn they are blowing is that these guns are “untraceable,” although what this means, in reality, is exactly nothing. but it sounds good. it does not matter one whit where a gun came from; it is only important to know who was holding it (or possessing it as the case may be) at the time of the commission of a crime.

    I think we need an article: “Debunking the Gun Tracing Myth”. This mythology is central to the ghost gun bills and the microstamping laws, as well as the older casing registration laws used by NY to no success. But evey time this comes up, there is some chief of police, mayor or other politician contending that this is an “important crime fighting tool.” Uh huh.

    • Absolutely. How many crimes were solved by tracing guns after Canada instituted their massive and expensive registration scheme? I believe the answer was one.

      So, in California, if you build a “ghost pistol” on an AR chassis, does the firing pin have to microstamp the primer so the authorities will be able to trace the empties back to Casper?

  18. solving a problem that doesn’t exist, like the feds banning M855. Has anyone ever been murdered with a “ghost gun”?

  19. It would be great for TTAG to create a curated reference section, with easily accessible facts about guns, especially guns and ammo mentioned in specific gun control laws.

    It’s kinda shocking how disconnected most gun control proposals are from actually addressing real problems with violence.

  20. “30… magazine clip… in half a second.” – Sen. Kevin de Leon, 2014 Nobel Prize for Poetry winner

  21. Ah, Stockton. Home to Patrick Purdy and his schoolyard caper that gave rise to the whole “assault weapons” panic, which resulted in the first black rifle ban. I guess they feel neglected with other more interesting mass shootings having pushed them out of the limelight after so many years.

    They need to put in a call to Shannon, and have one or two disheveled Moms hang out there with pre-printed signs from the Bloomberg print shop.

  22. The liberty rapists, who created the so-called “ghost gun” process, continue to promote fear mongering about them being “unserialized”. This is because the authorities want a national firearm registry pure and simple. This is just another obstacle to that agenda.

    Here’s a question, “How does serialization prevent the use of a firearm in the commission of a crime?” It doesn’t any more than a “Gun Free” zone sign does. Even the Governor of California acknowledged this when he vetoed SB808.

    “How does knowing the history of a firearm help in solving a crime?” For instance, what was gained by being able to ascertain that Adam Lanza”s firearms were purchased by his mother? Nothing.

    With any due respect to our dear Regal friend Mr. Graham Barlowe and his handlers, the Gun Control Act has been Congresses intent since 1968 and before. You are a member of a taxing authority intended to tax COMMERCIAL MANUFACTURING of firearms. Since your agency is tasked with taxing each and every COMMERCIALLY MANUFACTURED firearm, your regulations require COMMERCIAL FIREARM MANUFACTURERS to identify each taxable object with a unique serial number so that the appropriate amount of tax is collected.

    Private citizens on the other hand have a Constitutionally protected Right to manufacture (as in NON-COMMERCIALLY “make” for personal ownership and use) their own firearm. Said private construction does not amount to COMMERCIAL MANUFACTURING and is the sole reason why “serialization” is not legally required. Any other benefit falls squarely outside of your agency’s taxing mandate.

    Your very own agency has known about and defined this so-called 80% process for 35+ YEARS. Your agency has for 35+ years REPEATEDLY STATED that so-called 80% parts are “NOT FIREARMS”, and has clearly stated that individual Americans have a right to manufacture (as in make for personal use) their own firearm, so clearly your agency has NO JURISDICTION, TAXING OR OTHERWISE over what amounts to fancy paperweights.

    Your agency’s recent “determination” letter states clearly that your agency believes that a person who drills even a single tiny mark on a so-called 80% is the person who has “made” a firearm by doing so. But your agency is now trying to cleverly combine “COMMERCIALLY MANUFACTURED” with “PERSONALLY MANUFACTURED” in an attempt to expand your taxing authority into personal, NON-COMMERCIAL Constitutionally protected activities.

    Because it is politically expedient and you have a Director and an AG who are Obama radicals you think it clever to come forward with this FUD in a thinly veiled attempt to curry political favor. You are transparent and shallow…and may we say un-American.

    As a side note we find it humorous that your agency has placed itself in the position of believing that it has the authority to decide how hard or easy the execution of a Right should be.

    You are a shining example of how a government agency can be easily politicized when it allows itself to become unhitched from the Constitution and it’s oath to said document.

  23. Ummm…how hard would it be to duplicate a WW2 grease gun machine gun? Basically pretty simple isn’t it? Why print when you can cobble together a stamped machine gun…

  24. The due date for new bills was the 27th of Feb., and while they can gut and amend another bill, Brown has shown a stubborness is vetoing bills he vetoed the last time they were past. Expect it when Newsom becomes governor.

  25. Just saw OFWGPhil shooting a grease gun on Gun Gurus…copied the British Sten pretty much(except a better caliber and no stupid sideways mag)…

  26. I’m so confused. Some of the articles here sound very libertarian, then, others sound like they are written by boot-licking, war-mongers.

    • That’s because the POTG crossed nearly all boundaries here in the US. About the only ones you won’t see are Progressives. The few I’ve seen here that have called themselves such are either trolls or actually liberals who’ve mislabeled themselves as Progs.

  27. I can play this game too, where I pull random “facts” out of my ass of which I have no basis for.

    “There could be as many as 500,000 mole-people below the California streets right now,” Mmmtacos told TTAG

  28. Look I am a felon and I do have guns. And always will have them. But I do not keep them at my house. And I do not go out and comic crimes with them. And yes I buy mine off the street. You would be sureprised at what you can get. And how cheap you can get them. Brand new still in the box. And no one will ever know I have them. Now don’t you think it would make more since to be able to track what I have. As to try and keep me from buying one legally . So now I still buy them and they can’t be traced back to me or any one. You should see some of the things made in prison. And they will fire live rounds. Or some of the shanks that are made and the way they are made. The problem is even if guns are outlawed. Only the outlaws wood have them. So that mean all you law abiding people out there would become felons yourselves . Because how many of you would turn over all your guns. Let’s be honest now. So that makes you just as bad as me. And who gives you the right to take away my second am in a men mint right to protect myself or my family. Because when push comes to shove if the government ever tried to declare Marshall law. And order all guns seized . Who do you think will be fighting by your side. I am an ex gang member. My life is in danger 24/7 even to the point my kids gets threats against them. My kids are good kids. Never been in trouble in there lives. Graduated high school got good job and kids of there own. I’ve gotten married with step kids and have been out of trouble for a long time. But the past has a way of coming back around. Do to old friends or some one seeing old tattoos. And things start all over again. It ain’t my own well being that bothers me. I made my mistake’s I deal with what comes my way. But now I have a wife and step kids I need to protect. They ain’t my kids but I still am responsible for. They could be one of your kids I’m taken care of. They should not have to worry about my past. That is my burden to bare. But they shouldn’t have to go unprotected and live in danger because you say I should not own a gun. Well then when your kids get hurt or worse end up dead. And you look to me and ask why I did nothing to prevent it. Well its because you say I cant. So I’m not made that way. And because if some other man was taking care of my kids. As a man he best do what ever necessary to keep them safe. As is my duties as a man to do so myself. So some time it’s better to get cough with a gun than with out it. You know what I mean. So with that all said. Most would think it better to keep track of who has guns. And what they are doing with them. As to not know at all and no way to trace them. But that is what you the people want. So that is what you get. We do not have to make guns. Cost to much and takes to long. If I need a gun. I could have one in less than 30 minutes even if I didn’t own any. That’s how easy they are to get. Hell some places you don’t even have to have money. They will take things in trade. But prohibition should have taught you all a lesson. You ban something. And it will still be made and sold. The question is how many of you would still buy them if they where band.

    • Illegal firearms.
      AK47: Semi auto $400. Full auto $700.
      .38 special revolver $100-500.
      Any working Glock $800-1000.
      MP5 $1200.
      MAC10 $800.
      Anything bolt or single shot $50-100.
      I’m not sure about shotguns and I’ve never seen an illegal AR15 but how similar are these prices to what you see? I can legally own so i would never bother with anything illegal. But I’m known to be a gun guy so occasionally i am given illegal firearms which i then turn into my local police. Don’t believe me, ask DCPD about the brown paper bag and the guy that refused to give ID at their main window. But illegal firearms are much easier to come by and most come from China and Mexico that i see.

      • Yes you might turn them in. But how many people out there who wouldn’t. And my question is. If they did ban all fire arms. Would you turn in all of your guns. And that means all of them. I really don’t think you would. Just like I don’t think any body would. At least not all of them. They cost way be much just to give up. I have some friends who has 20k. Into one gun. Do you think he would just hand that over with out getting compin sated for it. I mean that’s just one gun. I don’t know what he has total in his guns. And there are many like him. Hell I don’t even have that much in my own collection. Hell mine don’t even break three. But my point is. Really wouldn’t it make more sense to keep track of every one who buys guns. Than try to keep them from buying illegal ones. Because a criminal can always get no matter what. So if that so why not let them buy legal and keep track of them and what they are used for. And it ain’t just criminals who are in miss use of fire arms. Look at the law enforcement. And compare all crimes that are committed by the people. And look at all crime committed by law enforcement. And you will see cops are just as bad. They are neck and neck with us criminals. And these are the ones you turn your guns over to.

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