By Brandon via concealednation.org

In case you weren’t aware, if a law is passed that allows concealed carry reciprocity across the country, we’re all going to die. The streets will run red with the blood of those too stupid to realize that citizens shouldn’t be carrying guns. And, of course, the article opens with George Zimmerman as the focus. Meet John Rosenthal, a gun owner and author for the Huffington Post. According to his bio, he’s a recreational trap shooter, founder of Stop Handgun Violence, and by my count, he is horrible with statistics. Or not doing enough research. Or lying . . .

The number that Rosenthal uses to try and further his cause is… well, it’s very misleading. In his article, he references the number 722. The number generated is, supposedly, the number of people killed by concealed carry permit holders nationwide, over the last eight years. This number comes from a *cough* study *cough* by The Violence Policy Center that includes things such as suicides and negligent discharges…oh, and legally justified self-defense shootings.

One commenter decided to throw some actual statistics in the direction of Rosenthal:

And don’t forget, there are over 11 MILLION citizens across the country that have a concealed carry permit. I’d ask Rosenthal to do the following math just to humor me: Go find statistics of how many drunk people get behind the wheel of a car and end up killing someone –or themselves– and get back to me with the real dangers of life. You don’t even have to go back eight years… the last year’s worth of statistics is more than enough to prove my point.

Don’t punish the majority for the dumb actions of a few. Furthermore, if you’re going to use statistics in your argument, they should make sense.

## 76 Responses to A Fudd Fights Concealed Carry Reciprocity With Bad Numbers

1. PeterC says:

From Wikipedia: Stop Handgun Violence was founded in 1995 by Boston developer John Rosenthal with Michael Kennedy, son of assassinated former U.S. attorney general and presidential candidate Robert Kennedy.[2] Rosenthal says that he was inspired to cofound the group when “I learned that 15 kids under 19 died every day in this country from the only consumer product in America that is not regulated.”[3] Rosenthal, President of the real estate development firm Meredith Management, has a history of social activism. He led protests against nuclear proliferation in the 1970s, launched the non-profit Friends of Boston’s Homeless in the 1980s, founded Stop Handgun Violence in 1995, cofounded Common Sense About Kids and Guns in 1999, and cofounded the American Hunters and Shooters Association in 2005.[4] Stop Handgun Violence has shown a particular concern with the ease with which firearms can be purchased at gun shows. It is also concerned about how easily children,[5] the mentally ill,[6] felons, and potential terrorists[7] can gain access to firearms.

• Sixpack70 says:

“It is also concerned about how easily children,[5] the mentally ill,[6] felons, and potential terrorists[7] can gain access to firearms.”

Are they worried about train stations in Belgium where you can buy real AKMs and RPGs? Oh, but they are worried about gun shows where everyone has to get a background check unless it is a private sale. Which of course could happen at any time and not just at gun shows and is impossible to regulate.

• dh34 says:

Last time I was in a Belgian train station all I got was a beer and blintz…I didn’t see the AK kiosk…

• Sixpack70 says:

You just needed to call the arms dealer that sold guns illegally to the Charlie Hebdo attackers, at the train station.

• JustYourRandomEuropean says:

Yeah, the man is right….
Everyone can buy AKMs and RPGs in Belgium at Train stations.

As long as he has connections to organized crime or terrorist organisations, that’s the part he forgot to mention.
Pretty much the same, as when you are trying to buy the same items in the US, Canada, Germany, France or whatever.

Without connections you get nothing…

So please save yourself and us your plump little statements about the old world and move along Sir…

• 16V says:

Anyone with the proper cash and willing to spend a day or two making those connections, can get an AK anywhere in the world. The RPG is a bit trickier, though the Old World is so close to so many battlefields, it’s not too hard either.

Just because people unwilling to break the law find acquiring weapons difficult or impossible, don’t think for a second it’s difficult to get them for those who are.

• LarryinTX says:

“Everyone can buy AKMs and RPGs in Belgium at Train stations.

As long as he has connections to organized crime or terrorist organisations, that’s the part he forgot to mention.”

So you are proud of the fact that it is only easy for organized crime figures to obtain any kind of weaponry they want, honest citizens can piss up a rope? Do you honestly think that is something to be bragging about, internationally?

And you can bring your butt over here (US) and attempt to purchase RPGs at a train station, but I wouldn’t waste my money on a return ticket if I were you, you’ll be staying for decades.

• BlueBronco says:

Are they worried about guys like former state senate president Leland Yee in the Bay Area of San Francisco?

• Scrubula says:

And by regulating handguns he means banning them.

I’m fine with making sure poison and spoiled meat aren’t being sold in supermarkets but I don’t think these people realize just how few accidents are caused by mechanically faulty firearms.

• LarryinTX says:

His numbers are crap, but there would still be a greater decrease in deaths of boys under 19 if he moved to outlaw gangs, than anything which involves guns and is not already outlawed.

• AllAmerican says:

Short version: He’s pro civilian disarmament.

• doesky2 says:

My guns have killed less people than Teddy Kennedy’s car.

• forrest says:

Don’t blame his car. The car didn’t drink and drive itself.

• Mark says:

No, but the car did drive itself away for a long enough time for the operator to sober up before turning himself in. 😉

• SteveInCO says:

@Mark

Not sure if you’re joking or not… the car stayed at the bottom of the channel. The “Hero” of Chappaquiddick managed to extricate himself from it (leaving Mary Jo Kopechne to die) and swam to safety. The next morning he was acting kind of dodgy about the whole thing.

He showed no concern whatsoever for his victim, yet managed to sit as a US senator until he finally kicked the bucket.

• Roscoe says:

@ Steve

That Kennedy remained in office is more likely a sign of resigned moral antipathy by the kind of supportive voters who would perpetually return such a felonious political creature to the Senate.

• LarryinTX says:

And we never did find out whether she was pregnant.

• Roscoe says:

Wouldn’t have mattered. Plainly stated; his supporters knew he did it, but they didn’t care. He was one of them…a Democrat, plus he was a…wait for it…Kennedy.

Those attributes trumped all, including moral turpitude.

• Barry Fitzgerald says:

I think we all know where he is coming from. It’s called a “wolf in sheep’s clothing.” This guy was part of the “Nuclear Freeze” (a/k/a nuclear proliferation) movement, that was radical. I know because I organized groups and P.R. against it. Had they gotten their way the Soviets would have had military superiority in Europe, but when we installed the Pershing II’s and the cruise missiles in Europe, that backed them off and into talks which eventually caused their collapse. That would never have happened if Mr. Rosenthal had gotten his way.

The son of the super rich who has a guilty conscience about having the money so he spends his life protesting against the very institutions which allowed his forefathers to make that money, Give it to me as I won’t feel your guilt.

It is a waste of tie arguing anyway. Do we think that a Congress that will not even stop the invasion of the southern border that the President in encouraging would pass a nationwide law? Or that the President would not do everything in his power, legal or not to stop it?

And to Mr. Gun Grabber a/k/a trap shooter, more “children” which here are defined as 14 or younger (as everyone is somebody’s child) are killed in swimming pool accidents and hot tubs drownings than by firearms accidents. Owning a hot tub is not an inalienable right. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, National Center for Injury Prevention and Control. Web-based Injury Statistics Query and Reporting System (WISQARS) [online]. [cited 2012 May 3]. Available from: URL: http://www.cdc.gov/injury/wisqars

• Anonymous says:

…from the only consumer product in America that is not regulated…

??? This is total BS. Name me a consumer product that is regulated more than firearms and all have a great rebuttal for you.

• John P says:

Automobiles. Those ARE more heavily regulated than firearms. Although more firearm regs carry prison sentences for violations.

• Pwrserge says:

BS. When was the last time you passed a background check to buy a car?

• Bill says:

The CONSTRUCTION of automobiles is more heavily regulated than firearms, but not the PURCHASE. If you walked in to any dealership in the country with a fistful of cash you could walk out with anything on the lot no questions asked (depending on the capacity of your fist of course)

• AllAmeican says:

No, they are not. Not in the least bit. Anyone with any amount of cash can buy a car from anyone, from any dealership. You could go to prison for a triple homicide and the day you became free (let’s say your in a very liberal state that would let a triple murder go free) you could buy a car provided you had the money.

• Stinkeye says:

I don’t think we have much to worry about from this chump, if his previous causes are any indication. Last I checked, there were plenty of nuclear weapons in the world’s arsenals and there’s definitely no shortage of homeless people in Boston.

• LarryinTX says:

” It is also concerned about how easily children,[5] the mentally ill,[6] felons, and potential terrorists[7] can gain access to firearms.”

It is illegal for unsupervised children[5] to even possess firearms. It is illegal for the mentally ill;6] to possess firearms. It is illegal for felons[6.5] to even possess firearms. And every person on this planet is a “potential” terrorist, which tells us who is actually the target of their desire to disarm.

Lots of eyewash about “problems” which already have plenty of laws “solving” them, finally followed by the real push, “bad people might be bad, it is up to heroic me to stop them by passing one more stupid law with no actual effect.”

2. rabbi says:

FUD is far too nice a name for Rosenthal

• SteveInCO says:

Why would I want to call him “Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt?”

• Chrispy says:

Probably the only thing driving his big ideas is Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt

3. John Franco says:

Its all the liberal/progressive/democrats have is thier lies. That along with their arsenal of false statistics, emotional dialogue, and their use of idiotic phrases like “think about the safety of the children”. If they did care about the safety of kids as well as the innocent they would do an about face from their current stance and give people a chance to protect the children and themselves!

• Mark says:

“…Its all the liberal/progressive/democrats have is thier lies. That along with their arsenal of false statistics, emotional dialogue, and their use of idiotic phrases…”

…..and they also have the media on their side to promulgate the above.

4. The comments on the linked propaganda piece are actually quite stunning.

Avalanche!

This guy is the worst kind of one man shill. And he’s not even very good at it.

• JR_in_NC says:

Truly.

I think it is clear HuPo is losing its “base.”

• NYC2AZ says:

When that happened over at CNN.com, they shut down Disqus comments on most of the articles and then (months later) went to a heavily moderated in-house comment program. Pretty much killed any opposition to their opinion journalism (at least 80% of their articles were pushing opinions). I wonder if HuffPo will do the same…?

• BlueBronco says:

The Huffington Post has been known to ban users from posting or deleting comments heavily.

• SteveInCO says:

I’ve noticed that trend on HuffPo too, at least the few times I’ve gone over and looked. The commentariat there is a lot smarter than the clown who wrote the piece.

5. dwb says:

Pretty sure police kill that many people every year. Ban police!

• Jtniggle says:

Police kill MANY more!

• LarryinTX says:

True, but then so do CC licensees. I have no clue where his numbers come from, they don’t relate to anything I’m aware of. The numbers I’ve seen previously have CC folk righteously killing around 3000 a year, cops around 2000.

• barnbwt says:

Yeah, I mean, if we’re counting legally/morally justified shootings along with everything else, the cops must be horrifyingly murderous by ‘statistical’ comparison

6. RockOnHellChild says:

Nation reciprocity will mean game over the may issue nonsense…

Citizens can get non-resident licenses from shall issue states and invalidate the may issue control.

• Citizens can get non-resident licenses from shall issue states and invalid the may issue control.

Doubtful. National reciprocity will almost certainly rely on honoring state-issued resident permits.

• Jtniggle says:

Yep, that’s the way the current circulating legislation has it.

But, that will lead to some pretty pissed residents, when visitors have more freedom than they do in their own damn state. This should lead to quicker changes to those may issue statutes.

• LarryinTX says:

Honoring them how? If the residents of 49 states can legally carry in your state, you’re saying the state’s own residents cannot rely on the precise same license the man standing next to him has? And you think the police would enforce that? Lordy, I’m glad I live in a free state.

• Chrispy says:

National Reciprocity… as it currently stands right now that’s a pipe dream. Anybody who thinks it can go happen in the next 20 years or so is just plain ignorant of the simple truth. When you have states like NY, CA, NJ, CT, MA, MD, IL, HI, (just off the top of my head) that will simply deny the right to armed self defense because they think it’s icky then how do you figure they’ll allow such a thing? If you want to see this happen at all you have to start with these troubled areas. If you can get these states to even adopt a shall issue stance on carry rights you’d be a hell of a lot closer. But hey, everybody seems content to just tell gun owners there to leave their homes.

• National Reciprocity… as it currently stands right now that’s a pipe dream. Anybody who thinks it can go happen in the next 20 years or so is just plain ignorant of the simple truth.

All it would take is a Republican in the White House in 2016, with a Republican hold of the House and Senate. The key component is already in place: all 50 states now have provisions for resident carry permits (once Illinois was forced, kicking and screaming). Precedent case law has established that States cannot outright deny their residents the right to bear arms, so once a federal law is passed, requiring any state that issues its residents a carry permit to honor the resident carry permit of any out-of-state non-residents, it’s done. States won’t be able to pass laws to revoke their own permitting processes, because it would violate Heller.

I want to see it pushed through the Senate (it has already passed the House in the past, possibly more than once – but spiked in the Senate by NRA-endorsed Harry Reid), and dropped on Obama’s desk. Make him veto it.

• Chrispy says:

I truly, honestly hope you’re right. I would love to see it happen. I’m not holding my breath though.

I know this is already an issue when you’re travelling that you have to know state law, that’s common sense, but I can foresee a lot of issues for unsuspecting people that do carry into a state with stricter gun laws should this pass. For instance, 10 round magazine limits. Maybe national reciprocity would help unite gun owners to overturn these types of restrictions. It’s nice to hope.

7. Ralph says:

John Rosenthal — HuffPo. Do that math. One lies and the other swears to it.

8. Darren says:

I, and everyone who has lived or does live in Massachusetts knows this guy all to well. He HATES guns and gun owners. He has testified at many state hearings and elswhere in favor of ANY restriction, not matter how absurd. He is not even a FUDD, a FUDD is an idiot who does not know better, this guy is an active anti-gunner and gun hater. A FUDD is the old korean war vet he trotted out as a prop at the state hearing on September 13, 2013. He thinks that owning his shotgun will somehow trick people into thinking “he’s one of us” I have heard him with my own ears suggest police inspection of homes, and thanking the state of MA for passing all of their restrictive and unconstituitional laws. He is always talking about “hunting humans with high capacity mags” He is a wretched, worthless vermin of an individual.

• Garrison Hall says:

Statists using their gun ownership as cover to legitimate their anti-gun views. Typical leftist strategy. Nothing new here at all. What’s funny is how these guys all seem to think others won’t or can’t read the same books they did.

• JR_in_NC says:

“What’s funny is how these guys all seem to think others won’t or can’t read the same books they did.”

That’s the nature of Progressive elitism. The really DO think everyone but them is too stupid to understand anything. That’s why we need them to do the thinking for us, after all.

• Comment reply fail. This was supposed to go here:

Along those lines, read The Vision of the Anointed, by Thomas Sowell. He explains the matter excellently – as he always does.

• JR_in_NC says:

I just finished the 1990 novel “Nightfall” by Asimov and Silverberg; this was a novelization of Asimov’s 1941 short story.

The short story is FAR, FAR better.

In the novel, that last third showed a very clear bias that the right, true ‘leaders’ to rebuild civilization are academic elites. The bias was clearly in favor of “urban” vs rural. It was pretty heavy handed.

9. Paul says:

I can’t speak to Florida law, but the CC permit laws in NC and VA are very similar to Massachusetts. Same fingerprints. Same local and federal criminal data bank check. Same check of local court and police records for domestic abuse and outstanding warrants. It is a felony if you lie on the form and they were to choose to prosecute. You have to take a class. The permits last for five years and then have to be renewed. NC requires a live fire session like MA and many other states; VA does not. So they really are very similar. Oh yes, except in one way. Shall issue unless proven to be a violator, instead of may issue when “vetted by the local police chief”, whatever that might mean. I imagine in MA that would mean a case of single malt Irish whiskey and a box of lobsters. Please send them to me!

• Ralph says:

NC requires a live fire session like MA and many other states

No live fire required in MA, just a 4 hour course. Boston requires live fire and can get away with it because it’s the only city in MA with “home rule.”

• Paul says:

Well, my mistake for taking the linked article at face value. Then the claim of the superiority of the MA system is even more false. Except for shall issue, it is the same as VA’s, which is often criticized by the grabbers as not being strict enough for their taste.

• JR_in_NC says:

You keep saying “except shall issue vs may issue” like it’s a small thing. You could fit the Grand Canyon into the chasm between “shall issue” and “may issue.”

The other thing to look at beside current law is the momentum direction for change. NC is moving in the right direction; MA is not, on the whole.

For example, NC did have a Constitutional Carry bill being considered and it crapped out in committee. It will come back. Is Constitutional Carry even ‘on the table’ in MA? Ditto School Carry; is that even talked about seriously in MA?

• In fact, may issue vs. shall issue is exactly the reason that the disarmament crowd believes the law to be superior: because they can control who gets the permission slip to exercise a constitutionally protected right. Training requirements, competency requirements, background requirements, etc. are all irrelevant if they can outright deny the permission slip.

I’m quite sure that the disarmament crowd would be perfectly happy with Massachusetts carry laws were revised to have no other requirements, except that the local police get to decide who does and does not get a carry permit.

• blahpony says:

VA CC permits don’t require fingerprints. Unless my local sheriff did mine wrong. And the many other people I know with permits.

10. Matthew says:

The booze and auto lobby is too big and powerful to allow anything approaching car-sense. We’re the moral minority and anyone who doesn’t agree with us obviously has a misguided understanding of the Constitution. After all the horse drawn carriage was all they could imagine, not these modern racing-grade machines of speed and mayhem!

11. mlloyd says:

I don’t even read the nonsensical ramblings of some blowhard whose written garbage gets published in some mainstream media rag. 95% of what we read from any of the mainstream media sources is wrong or manipulated and can’t be trusted.

• Yellow Devil says:

Sometimes it’s best to know thy enemy.

A couple of years ago, I was having a “friendly” debate with someone else about the prospect of government run/controlled healthcare (this was before Obamacare) and this person kept bring up the usual studies and statistics pushed by the left. I was able to either dispute his studies, put them in proper context or explain the methodology behind those studies. It got to the point his only response was “But, but we have to do something!”

12. Another Robert says:

Chip’s post provoked me to go to HuffPo just to look at the comments. What are all those sane people with functioning brains doing there?? And where are all the usual HuffPo audience?

13. Bob108 says:

Day after day I see and hear the anti-2nd amendment folks throw around incorrect numbers and false claims. The first couple times, I wrote it off as mistake, but after that, I concluded that they know their claims are false. They know that practically every word out of their mouth is a lie.

14. Gatha58 says:

At least in WA State our shall issue statute works like it is supposed to. You fill out the form and give your fingerprints. As long as you pass the background check, 30 days or less ( in most cases) you get your license. Personally, I think that a few classes and a live fire should be part of the program but I know that many disagree with that. I like the way it is done in Nevada and Florida. Similar to WA State but with the classes and the live fire parts included. But, I digress. The point is that politics, for the most part, seems to have been taken out of the equation for CPLs (Concealed Pistol Licenses). Would like to see a concealed weapon permit instead as you can still be arrested for certain types of knives if they are concealed even if you have a CPL, which seems absurd. But that is another rant for another time.

• Scrubula says:

How many CCW accidents have happened in Washington due to lack of training?

I can say I haven’t seen any on the local news. I don’t think people should ever have to have a right delayed without a real reason, and mandatory training classes seem pointless to me. Most of the permit holders take classes or read up on the internet anyway, just on their own time rather than wasting a couple of afternoons behind a desk at an expensive training course with a mandatory time frame.

• Chris says:

[q]Personally, I think that a few classes and a live fire should be part of the program but I know that many disagree with that.[/q]

Yes. Starting age 5, passing from Mother to Daughter and Father to Son (or whatever).

Mandating it in adult-hood just misses the point. So many things are not taught to our children (how to dress so you don’t freeze in the Winter).

15. Shire-man says:

It’s cute to see the anti’s embrace the Fudds given the OFWG, racist geezer stereotype the anti’s have labeled the Fudds with over the years.
Note to the last four Fudds living with their heads up their asses: the anti’s hate you just as much as they hate us.

• SteveInCO says:

Yeah, but that doesn’t matter, because the Second Amendment is inviolate and protects them, but it isn’t meant for us. Too bad, we might get to lose our evil black high capacity clipazine rifles and glockamatics with the sights mounted on the side of the slide.

/sarc.

16. Chris says:

Rosenthal apparently is the guy who’s paid for this giant billboard on the side of I90 just outside Boston counting the number of dead kids since Sandy Hook.

It’s sad that Massachusetts has gone so idiotic on gun laws considering our Nation’s history.

17. Cesare says:

So there are some 300 million legally transacted and acquired firearms in this country. If you assume an additional 10% of illegal and/or non-registered guns, a figure I think way low personally, you probably well surpass a ratio of 1 per citizen. Long story short, if there was a violence problem of the magnitude they state you wouldn’t have to speculate or wonder about it, you’d be too busy filling sandbags.

18. kap says:

this person is Anti-Constitution = Anti- American = pro Muslim Jihadist in our country = pro Democratic party! revoke his citizenship then send him too the Virgins and Allah!

19. Ray says:

He’s a FRAUD not a Fudd. Let’s get the right definition here. A Fudd is NOT an aficianado of classic guns or who dresses more traditionally. A Fudd IS a jerkwad who insists everyone ELSE do so and also lectures them on the “evils” of black rifles and why “nobody needs one” and how HIS guns will never be banned. Don’t look at a guy in green plaid with an old Savage Model 99 in .300 Savage and see a Fudd.

It’s like Howard Hill. When compound bows came out he didn’t start slamming them as having “training wheels”. He said “If you draw a bow of any kind I stand with you.” CLASS versus crass.

Ray

20. Sian says:

In case you weren’t aware, if a law is passed that allows concealed carry reciprocity across the country, we’re all going to die.

Well it didn’t work out very well for drivers license reciprocity, did it?