(courtesy nydailynews.com)

So New York City ditched their police department’s decades-old “stop and frisk” (a.k.a., Walking While Black) policy. nydailynews.com reports that “the stops have fallen off a statistical cliff — down 92% during the first half of 2014 compared with last year.” So what of all those claims that stopping stop-‘n-frisk would unleash more firearms-related crime (e.g., the Daily News headline above)? “Cops seized nearly 400 guns during stop-and-frisk encounters last year — the lowest tally since 2003, when the NYPD began keeping records of firearm recoveries tied to the controversial tactic” yet “murder and overall crime are both down in the city.” Specifically . . .

The number of murders is down 12.3% citywide — from 211 through mid-August last year to 185 through Sunday, records show. Overall crime has dipped 3.6%.

The ACLU’s happy (“The clear lesson from 12 years of NYPD data is that increasing stop-and-frisk does not increase public safety”) while the S&F apologists are stuck in denial (“Any gun recovered is a gun that could have been used to take a human life”).

The stats indicate a simple truth: gun control doesn’t work. But I guess you already knew that.

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46 Responses to More Guns, Less Crime – Even When They’re Illegal Guns

  1. Gun control doesn’t work-
    Duh.
    proven time and again……

    lest of course one is at the range……../sarc

  2. I would challenge any anti to find a place in the US that has reduced crime after gun control.
    That’s a serious question, by the way. We all know it doesn’t work, but they can’t seem to comprehend that. Putting it in context is a good start.
    EDIT: Reduced crime means reduced total crime. Just because less guns=less gun crime in places that banned guns doesn’t mean their overall crime rates went down; in fact they went up in Great Britain and Australia.

    • Gun control has nothing to do with crime reduction. Gun control is people control. Gun control is the power of the state over the individual.

      • “Gun control is people control. ”

        Stop and Frisk: Use a witches brew of prejudice, confirmation bias and lying with statistics to systematically deny taxpaying citizens rights. Both techniques are people control.

  3. Shootings have gone up, I wonder why?

    The race/ethnicity of known Shooting suspects is most frequently Black (74.7%). Hispanic suspects accounted for an additional (22.0%) of all suspects. White suspects (2.2%) accounted for the remaining significant portion of suspects while Asian/Pacific Islander suspects accounted for (1.0%) of the known Shooting suspects.

    NYPD Crime and Enforcement Activity in New York City Report – 2013, Page 11

    http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/downloads/pdf/analysis_and_planning/2013_year_end_enforcement_report.pdf

    • They lose either way. Either they admit gun control is racist or admit that specific races are statistically more involved in crimes.

      • Former NYC Police Commissioner Ray Kelly already admitted that specific races are more involved in crime, therefore they are stopped more often:

        “It makes no sense to use census data, because half the people you stop would be women,” Kelly said. “About 70 percent to 75 percent of the people described as committing violent crimes — assault, robbery, shootings, grand larceny — are described as being African American.

        “The percentage of people who are stopped is 53 percent African American,” he continued. “So really, African Americans are being under stopped in relation to the percentage of people being described as being the perpetrators of violent crime. The stark reality is that a crime happens in communities of color.”

        http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/video/nypds-stop-frisk-racial-profiling-proactive-policing-19088868

        I personally don’t believe in stop and frisk since it’s a violation of the 4th amendment, but let’s not sugar coat the potential of that decision. For now it’s a 9.8% increase in shootings.

        • You do realize that stop and frisk typically found more whites with guns than blacks and hispanics, but still choose to focus and harass minorities.

          Its funny how you coward racists try to act like you are just telling the truth
          If you were really about the truth you would just come out with your racist beliefs and hold strong.

        • David, if you are gonna troll here, at least try to be subtle, wouldja?
          If you aren’t a troll, then here is how it works;
          You make a claim, you back it up with a verifiable fact. “Most guns seized by whites” is a statistic, a survey, a police database? Is this a raw number, or is it made relevant by calculating as a percentage of total stops?
          A link is REALLY helpful, or a citation, to another source, like a book, to prove your fact is real. Its like a high school essay, if you went, that is…at say, sophomore level. See the tabs above, for Facts About Guns, foe examples.

          You may find this hard to believe, but just because you say so, and call me a racist, doesnt make your “fact” real.
          I imagine you’ve been brainwashed by the folks peddling the “narrative of speaker” baloney, but we can help you become a man again, and walk on your own hind legs again, and maybe even shed the chains of the progtard plantation, if you try, and learn from the debate honestly, with reason, here.

        • I’m sorry if you don’t know the facts of what you are talking about.
          If you wanted the link all you had to do was ask though.

          http://racismstillexists.tumblr.com/post/38793769999/racial-disparities-in-nypd-stop-and-frisk
          —As with stops, Black and Latino people (58%) were more likely to be frisked than White people (44%)—but less likely to be found with a weapon [3].

          Some more facts though
          —The NYPD also contends that Black people are disproportionately stopped because they commit most of the violent crime in the city. However, approximately 90% of people stopped are for reasons other than violent crime. Also, violent crimes are less than 10% of all crimes in the city, and almost half of violent crime complaints do not include the suspect’s race at all [7].
          —Researchers have determined that Black and Latino people were stopped more frequently than Whites, in comparison to their overall population, and after controlling for estimated rates of crime by race and ethnicity, including violent crime [8].
          —Black and Latino males ages 14 to 24 are 4.7% of the city’s population, but they were 42% of stops in 2011. In fact, there were more stops of young Black men (168,216) than there were young Black men in the city (158,406) [3].
          —Among stops in 2011, 88% did not result in an arrest or summons [5]. Between 2004 and 2009, only 5.4% of stops resulted in arrests, showing that the vast majority of stops were of people who had done nothing wrong [6].
          —In 2009, more than half a million New Yorkers were stopped, and 87% of them were Black and Latino [7]. And in almost 36% of stops, officers did not list an acceptable suspected crime [6].
          —As noted above, frisking can only legally take place when the officer reasonably suspects that the person has a weapon and could endanger the officer’s safety. But 56% of people who were stopped were frisked, and a weapon was only found 1.9% of the time [3].

          You can go to the site and look at the compiled data.
          I doubt it will enlighten you though, because its clear to me that you are nothing more than a bigot trying to hide behind being a realist. People like you are so common now, I have respect for the guys who used to come out and just admit they were racists.

        • David, on cue you pull out the race card in an attempt to stop all debate because you have no argument other than some anecdotal evidence. If anyone is the coward it’s you for being intellectual dishonest.

          I would add to rlc2’s excellent post is that facts are not racist because you don’t agree with them, the second post were the words of Ray Kelly, not mine, and I don’t agree with stop and frisk.

        • David, I call bull*hit on the claim that stops of whites yielded more guns, but they did yield more knives and other contraband:

          Another way to look at the numbers of weapons recovered is that for every 1,000 Black individuals frisked in 2008, 3.5 guns were found; the equivalent return for Whites was 1.7 guns, and for Hispanics, 1.6 guns. Stops were somewhat more efficient in recovering other types of weapons, especially among Whites. For every 1,000 White individuals frisked in 2008, officers recovered 36.6 knives or other nonfirearms. The equivalent return for Hispanics and Blacks was 23.7 and 20.8, respectively.

          Stop, Question & Frisk Policing Practices In New York City: A Primer – Page 18

          http://www.jjay.cuny.edu/web_images/PRIMER_electronic_version.pdf

        • Haven’t looked at the NYC S&F data personally, but I have looked at California Highway Patrol’s required disclosures about race & traffic stops.

          Last time I looked (2012, for 2011 numbers) their data showed that they were far more likely to search black drivers they’d stopped, but of those they searched, they were more likely to find cause for arrest (usually dope) when searching whites than they were when searching blacks.

          Of course, my main takeaway was that if I was a drug kingpin I would solely employ Asian females as couriers, as they’re almost never searched — about 3% of the time they’re stopped IIRC.

        • You do realize that stop and frisk typically found more whites with guns than blacks and hispanics, but still choose to focus and harass minorities.

          So they find more guns on white people, but choose to stop and frisk the group with the statistically higher (much higher) crime rate? Please tell us more about this atrocity.

        • Daily Beatings, time out. Are you telling me that stop and frisk allowed cops to confiscate a man’s pocketknife? Those stats said “recovered”, like they took them, as in theft. Is a pocketknife somehow “illegal” in NY? Pardon for departing the actual intent of the thread, but I had never heard that, and I ALREADY thought stop and frisk was unconstitutional BS. I mean, I have lost a pocketknife (1.5″ Victorinox) to TSA before, but NYPD? On what basis?

        • LOL
          Ask for facts and reject them and then make excuses why you should ignore them.

          All the while you cry about “evil” Obama taking your 2nd amendment “rights” away from you.
          Yuu don’t give a damn about the state ignoring the 4th amendement restrictions imposed on it.

          Like I said the racism and ignorance by a great deal of you posters is so blatant that you really should just come out and say you hate blacks and hispanics.

          Just be honest and stop hiding.

          Stop claiming you are constitutionalist when you are statists who just want the boot of the government on minorities or people you are scared of.

        • @ David I might add stop giving excuses to the cultural decline and correlation of self-inflicted violence within one minority community, compared to others (ie: Asians).

      • All of which may be racist BS. Does anybody track the same questions about economic status? Employment status? Education level? Why is all we hear about race? Hispanic isn’t even race, but treated the same. I betcha neither the numbers for “blacks” or the numbers for “Hispanics” include a single MD, or hedge fund manager. Lawyers would be iffy.

      • I hate people who lie with statistics.

        For example, if 94% of blacks were not involved in criminal activity, and 96% of whites the same, then a racist can safely claim that blacks are twice as likely to commit crime and should be afforded fewer rights–even though 94% of blacks are tax paying, law-abiding citizens who’ve done nothing to justify such treatment.

        This call for police harassment is a witches brew of prejudice, confirmation bias and lying with statistics. It is also a hot load of BS that does nothing but enables Divide and Conquer from our so-called betters. Stop harassing regular working people and just focus on keeping the hardened thugs in jail.

        • The example translates into one-third or around 30% more likely. Sorry for that stupid moment.

  4. There should be no such thing as a “illegal” gun. Show me where in the constitution certain guns are made illegal.

    • The constitution is not a list of restrictions that apply to the people….it is a list of restrictions on the government. You also won’t find anything against murder, rape, arson, or burglary in there.

      In fact, when the second amendment was drafted, it was only conceived as a limitation on the federal government. It did not apply to the several states until the ratification of the Fourteenth Amendment after the civil war (something not acknowledged by the Court until the 21st century.)

    • You are correct. What an exciting discovery, notify MAIG! We have discovered how to instantly eliminate from the planet ALL illegal guns, just stop calling guns illegal! It’s a miracle. Then we can focus on ACTIONS which are illegal. MAIA.

  5. Way too soon to tell if there will be an increase in crime due to ending stop and frisk.

    Stop and frisk was criminal control, not gun control.

    • Too often it turned into colored people control. Criminals who cause mayhem are usually highly visible. The real problem is the revolving-door system that releases thugs while keeping non-violent drug offenders in jail and away from their families.

  6. Am the only one that read, “But Shootings On The Rise”, yet ‘heard’, “Butt Shootings On The Rise”?

    Come on.

  7. Stop and frisk in NYC is just as illegal and unconstitutional as my being denied the right to carry in Alemada County, CA.

    follow Ray Kelly’s logic all the way thru and all men in America would be under state supervision at all times. After all, statistically men account for the majority of violence in our country.

    There are lies, damn lies and then there are stats.

    • The Supremes also sanctioned warrantless, no probable cause stops vis-a-vis sobriety checkpoints.

      Good luck getting Pandora back in that box…

      • If they ruled that people could only be arrested for nonviolent crimes pertinent to the stop and seizure, I bet the random roadblocks and such would end quickly. A theoretical example? Some idiot gets hooked on drugs and hides some in his car. Guy gets pulled over so the cops can check his license plate or something stupid when they are really doing random searches for weapons and drugs… If they can’t legally arrest him for possession when they catch on a random search, searches would be a waste of time and thus minimized.

        Not that I want people to get away with crimes. In an ideal world, people would never have to speak to cops except for friendly conversation or when they actually break a crime. This isn’t an ideal world.

        • You don’t want cops to get away with crimes because they make up BS reasons to violate your constitutional rights.

      • 16v, before I retired from my primary job I worked nights quite a lot. I encountered my fair share of sobriety check points.

        Drunk driving sucks. Random roadblocks sucks even harder.

  8. Even illegal guns can reduce crime… that’s an interesting thought. I wonder how many legitimate DGUs are committed by prohibited persons, it could potentially be quite high considering the situation with gangs in this country.

    • I think guns which are owned by law abiding citizens but are not “properly licensed” (guns or citizens) are counted as “illegal” as well, probably accounting for millions of DGUs during the years before the spread of CC.

  9. The problem with the story is the NY Daily news as the source. Here is what the Post had to say in a recent story.

    “In the last month alone, 129 people were shot, according to the latest CompStat figures, or 43.3 percent more than for the same period last year.

    Since January, there has been an overall 13.2 percent increase in shooting victims, while 10.2 percent fewer guns have been recovered compared to 2013.”

    Additionally Bratton has gone on record about the increase in shootings. Anything the libs want is supported fully by the Daily News and Times.
    Now before the screaming starts I am a retired cop and never understood how Stop and Frisk was allowed to exist.

    • Interesting. Does the same serendipitous situation as Chicago exist now, where the less desirable elements of the city are making it their civic duty to eliminate each other? If so, can we arrange a gun giveaway program?

  10. Forgot to add that according to what I have read the increase in shootings and murder are the greatest in the black/Hispanic areas…..no surprise to anyone who was a cop. These are also the people who screamed the loudest about stop and frisk. Maybe instead of listening to Sharpton they might try working with the cops for some solution. Most of the shooting victims are black and Hispanic and very few are white.

  11. Fewer guns are found because they are becoming rarer and rarer in The City, and with fewer guns there is less violent crime. It would appear that the ammosexuals are trying pretty hard to spin this one to their benefit but that’s going to backfire with the general public.

    • Nonsense. Everybody knows the NRA replaces every seized crime gun with two brand new ones from a nearby state with lax gun laws. It’s part of our “war on young black boys.” The drop in crime is probably almost entirely due to common core education and effective, liberal social planning. DRATS!!!! We would have gotten away with it, too, if it weren’t for you meddling moms! /sarc

  12. I think most people are missing the mark entirely. This was a horrible way of policing, stopping people for no reason while they were not suspected of any crime or wrong doing.

    Many people have pointed out that blacks are responsible for a majority of crime or violent crime. But I think that it is crazy to assume that every black person is assumed to be commiting a crime just for simply being black or living on the wrong side of town. As a black man myself I would prefer to be judged on my own actions and not the actions of others. I have never been in trouble and not so much as a speeding ticket.

    People that agree or somewhat agree with stop and frisk dispoportiante stop of black males. Must be okay with those that assume all whites are racist? Statistically there are more white hate groups therefore the chances of a white male belonging to one is much higher than that of a black male…. again judge the individual by their actions and not the actions of their race.

    Stop and frisk was a horrible policy.

    • Umm, Mafic; I re-read the posts up to this point; either there is no mention of whether they agree with S & F, or they are against it. I didn’t read one post supporting such a gross violation of a persons right from unreasonable search and seizure.

    • If I might, I’d like to add that over a longer period, in repeated threads on this site, I have repeatedly seen and probably contributed to the idea that stop and frisk is CLEARLY unconstitutional (violation of 4th Amendment to be precise), obvious to everyone who has not had decades of training in misunderstanding clear English in order to satisfy an ideology. IOW, you’re correct except don’t blame us. As an aside, most posters on this site, I haven’t a clue nor any interest in their race, this is about as race neutral a discussion group as you’ll ever find.

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