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Germany’s shooting clubs pride themselves on being bastions of tradition, with many tracing their roots to the early 19th century and the aftermath of the Napoleonic Wars. Members don traditional uniforms to practice their marksman skills.” Another tradition they practice (although apparently not as rigorously as they used to) is restricting membership to Christians. Mithat Gedik, a German of Turkish ancestry, did after all, manage to gain membership. The problem came when he had the effrontery to win his local gun club’s Schuetzenkoenig championship title . . .

All of Gedik’s hard werk did not macht for much zufriednheit at the national shoot organization level. As reuters.com reports,

There was initially no objection to Gedik’s victory on July 18 in the shooting competition at the St. Georg Soennern-Proebsting gun club, one of thousands of such contests across Germany.

But after he won there was an investigation about whether as a Muslim he qualified to be a member. The rules say the club’s aim is to promote “Christian and historical culture”.

It’s not as if a desire for racial and cultural purity has gotten Germany into any difficulty in the past or anything.

After what Reuters describes as “national outrage” ensued, the National Association of Historic German Shooting Brotherhoods, the national umbrella organization, did a quick 180, goose-stepped up the the nearest microphone und announced that Gedik could, in fact, keep the title he’d won fair and square.

“It is completely incomprehensible that we still need to have these debates in the 21st century,” Gedik, whose parents came to Germany from Turkey decades ago,

So all’s well that ends well, at least as far as Herr Gedik’s title is concerned. Still, he might want to consider the sage advice of that noted observer of the human condition, Groucho Marx, who refused to belong to any club that would have him as a member. He may also want to re-think his choice of fatherland.

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104 Responses to Achtung! Ve Haff Rules At Shooting Clubs Here In Deutschland!

    • I can just imagine the national German Department of Truth monitor sitting in his chair, reading reports. He finds himself nodding along, not noticing at first what he just read, SUDDENLY spits out his Apfelwein and freezes wide eyed with horror at a German group investigating the cultural heritage of a member to see if they meet standards.

    • Pretty funny to hear something like this from US-Americans, although the rate of racism is way higher in the US than in Germany.

      • Even if that is true (I’d like to see something to back it up), the Holocaust still ended in 1945, a mere 69 years ago. I still know people that remember it. When that is the case, you really need to tread lightly on the subject of “purity” in the winner of a trophy… oh, and that description made me laugh out loud, B.

  1. Meh. It’s a private club with pro-Christian policies written into its bylaws. Next TTAG will be saying that Muslims should be allowed to pray towards Mecca in synagogues. It’s not an “enlightened” policy, but it’s a private club. It’s their policy and I think that forcing them to change their policy is the same thing that antis want to do to pro gun people.

    • The issue is that in Germany you must be a member of a club in order to shoot or own guns. If all the clubs are restricted by religion it means that only Christians are allowed to be gun owners. That should bother most people, especially when you consider Germany’s history.

      • So, a muslim complaining about an effectively government-chartered organization having one set of rules for the majority religion, and another for the kaffirs? Mr Pot, meet Mr…

        (note: I don’t personally support that kind of policy, but oh the ironing!)

        • No more so than a Christian complaining about such a thing. I hope you realize that historically such discrimination was commonplace in all religious societies, and that today it is not practiced by most Muslim countries, nor supported by most Muslims themselves. This particular guy certainly doesn’t look like a crazy bearded fundie type, so unless you know anything about him in particular, it’s a rather offensive speculation.

        • The people of Mosul are slaughtered by fanatics who also happily slaughter other Muslims for not being “Muslim enough”. Did you even read what I wrote?

        • so unless you know anything about him in particular, it’s a rather offensive speculation.

          I didn’t say or imply that Mr Gebik is an Islamist. It’s clearly the gun clubs that are acting in a discriminatory way, and they owe him the prize that he fairly won.

      • “The issue is that in Germany you must be a member of a club in order to shoot or own guns.”

        Yeah, and thats the Problem, not the membership regulations of these Clubs. Guns should be for everybode, not just for shooting club members or registered hunters.

        • Germans don’t share the US obsession with guns, so this aspect wouldn’t bother them. Guns are not for everyone in Germany and they would point at the huge rate of gun deaths in the US as proof that they have the right idea.

      • please read my comment to understand the difference between a “Schützenverein” and a shooting-club.
        A “Schützenverein” isn’t a shooting club.

        • Obviously there are a lot of people out there claiming to know a lot about Germany even if they don´t. I´m also a member of a shooting club and we don´t have any regulations about the religion of our members whatsoever. The problem with this turkish guy was not racism among Germans, but stupid bureaucracy. Non of the people who were against him having this title were racists. Maybe they were stupid or old-fashioned but that´s it.

          However, I´d like to see a German guy applying for a job in a kebab shop – let´s see what they say about racism. 😉

        • Actually in Germany they would point out the large number of Negroes shooting each other.

    • “Next TTAG will be saying that Muslims should be allowed to pray towards Mecca in synagogues.”

      Uh, you can stow that logical fallacy where the Sun don’t shine, shipmate. Religious centers =/= private shooting club. Not even the same principles apply, as the former is not (at least ostensibly anyway) a commercial entity.

      Although Title II of our own Civil Rights Act of 1964 exempted “private” clubs that aren’t in fact open to the public, I seriously doubt any such religious discrimination (even against Muslims) would be widely condoned (it damned-well shouldn’t be anyway) and would probably elicit enough out cry to get the club to change its policies.

      http://users.wfu.edu/zulick/341/civilrightsact1964.html

      Discrimination on any other grounds than personal merits, technical qualifications in the field, and content of character is wholly unacceptable and unbecoming.

      • The Knights of Columbus ostensibly a ‘club’ have a very Catholic only membership in the US. No one makes a peep.

        • The Knights are not a club. They are described by anti-Catholics as a secret society and descibe themselves as a society of secrets. No different than the Masons.

        • So a self selected, self governed, self REGULATED group. Where would such similar thing be referenced in our Constitution?

    • “Meh. It’s a private club with pro-Christian policies written into its bylaws.”

      Why was he allowed to join the club in the first place? The reuters article says the rule of being a Christian is “An old but until now not always rigorously-enforced rule” So apparently, when he joined the club and no one objected.

      That means his membership only became an issue when he won. And at that point, that’s just plain sour grapes.

  2. A friend of mine lived in Germany working for the US government for many years. He wanted to go hunting, but to own a gun requires membership in one of these “private” clubs. To be a member he had to wear lederhosen and other silly costumes.

    These clubs exist only because the government gives them an enforceable membership.

    My friend got sick of it and quit hunting while living there.

    • Seems like the fuddy German gun clubs are in bed with the government. As such they should be treated as a government entity and membership should be available to all.

      • I know a guy who is a gun owner in Germany, and he mentioned on several occasions that not only the gun clubs tend to support increased regulation, but on some occasions they even introduce their own additional “private” restrictions (about things as stupid as AWB) over and above what the law mandates.

      • hmm private corporations and government going in together on authoritarian policies with racist undertones… I feel like there’s a name for that…

    • It is right, that you have to be a member of a shooting club, if you want to be a gun owner in germany.
      If you’re a hunter, you don’t have to be a member of a shooting club.
      There is a big difference between a shooting club and a “Schützenverein”

      In my shooting club, none wears funny uniforms and Lederhosen.

      Yes, in my “Schützengesellschaft 1624” we are wearing traditional (funny) uniforms.

  3. One may disagree with the policy, but if it’s a PRIVATE club, they can make any rules they want within the law.

    “We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone.”

    Right of association and all.

    • Yes, it was a private club. They have a right to associate with anyone they want. At least, that’s the law here.

      But they admitted him. He is a member who they allowed to shoot in their club championship. Which he won. It was only after the fact that anyone raised a stink.

      • That’s what my beef is here. They admitted him. If they had a requirement for being of a particular religion (or craft, or political party, etc), that should have been a requirement at the time of joining.

        Where the real rub comes in would be if the government denied a Moslem club from applying for recognition.

      • You are actually missing a small part of the Story. The shooting club itself was not the issue here. Shooting clubs are in a so called “Dachverband” basically a club for the clubs. The peep was raised when there was an interclub tournament held by said Dachverband, where its leadership went on to have a hissy fit.
        Also to all the “silly germans never learn people” did you miss the part about the national outrage?

      • Sounds like no one was complaining about taking his money. I can’t imagine that these club dues/fees are inexpensive…

  4. Just out curiosity, is the fake German spelling and presumably pronunciation actually funny for English speakers?

    German being my birth language I can only consider it funny anecdotally because I live in the US and it is so common of a joke.

    I don’t take offense to it or anything.

    • I can only speak for myself, but frankly, yes, it kind of is.

      Probably a host of reasons but I think the root is that English is a combination germanic/romantic language. So when we hear someone speak german, we can understand about 20 percent of it. So rather than sounding like a foreign language, it almost sounds like someone started out with English, and then just added enough other sounds to make it sound silly.

      Culturally, there’s probably the same thing going on. German culture is just different enough (compared to my Midwestern white-guy culture) to be interesting, but similar enough to understand; and that makes it easy to laugh at.

      Pour over that, the fact that most of the time we see Germans on the news or in history, its in a fairly serious context. So when we see them doing anything fun or frivolous, it’s amusing because, to us, it’s unusual.

      Finally, Germans are white, so in American it’s okay to laugh at them. For a white guy, it’s far more acceptable for me to say in a bad German accent: “Komen zie hier and zit on mine lap frauline” than to say in my bad Chinese accent: “You, round-eye girl, me rikey rikey!”

      For more racial stereotypes, consult your local library or google: “PJ O’Rourke foreigners around the world”

      • I’m a squarehead from the midwest, so I have special dispensation to apply bad german accents in self mockery…and this will date me, but seems apt:

        http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8105U1WY9ro

        Beyond that I lose my patience with politically correct euro nitwits lecturing us here on tolerance.
        With a great grand mother on the wifes side lost somewhere in Poland…Birkenau, best guess,
        but no one really knows…well…
        Its why 2A rights matter.

    • I find it absolutely hilarious. Just like I like me some crikeys in my British news and some implied tentacled penetration in my Japan updates. If you can’t laugh at other countries, who can you laugh at? 😛

    • it’s funny. My mother was a Schmidt. My mom and dad spoke German in the home too. My grandmother came from “the old country” before WW1 AND had a very thick accent. Yah it’s funny.

    • Being of mostly German and Swiss descent, I do not have a big problem with the accent humor. Hey, we are fair game for all sorts of Nazi jokes and epitaphs. I know I just love my new Siemens microwave oven that seats 50 people. The Irish side is not much better.

  5. Really, Germans? Really? What the hell do they do at the range?

    “Ze body of Christ” BANG. “Ze cup of salvation” BANG. “Our Vater, who ist im Heaven…” BANG.

    Wie sagt Mann “fail” auf Deutsch? Das uber-fail? Or would it be der uber-fail?

  6. Private club, not in the USA, their rules, not ours. Seems muslim Turks could start their own club if they liked. So much easier to force their will upon others I guess.

    • I guess you missed the part about the Muslim being a dues-paying and admitted member of the club. They were happy to have him as a member, and I’m sure they liked his money, right up until the time he won the competition.

      Their club, their rules — except when they change the rules in the middle of the game.

      • Nope….you don’t read well, do you? They took it for granted, wrongly, that he was fully qualified to be a member. It wasn’t until after he won a competition that it came attention that he didn’t meet membership rules after all. Who’s fault, theirs for carelessness, or his for non-disclosure, is not stated. Still, it is quite within their rights to disqualify his membership, likely with at least a pro-rated return of dues and fees. PC sucks.

        • Who doesn’t read well? Where did YOU read that he failed to “disclose” his religion?

          “But after he won there was an investigation about whether as a Muslim he qualified to be a member. ”

          Sounds like his religion was no secret

        • No, it doesn’t at all. Like I said, you don’t read well, and read into things what you imagine happened.
          You couldn’t even read my prior statement properly. Go back to “Dick and Jane walked Spot”.

    • The rules that Germany has on discrimination (private or public) are much more stringent than that of the USA. To remind, after the Allies won, they forced Germany to write a bunch of stuff into their constitution to ensure that Nazis couldn’t come back. The balance of power is intentionally shifted away from freedom and towards tolerance and correctness (forced, if needed) there there. It’s a country where parties can be banned on the grounds of being “against the liberal democratic order” – and two parties have been so banned (a successor to Nazis, and the Communist party).

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streitbare_Demokratie

  7. In Germany, you must be a member of a shooting club, lederhosen and all, to shoot or own guns. The thousands of German shooting clubs are Christian organizations. Germany has lots of non-Christian Turkish immigrants. So, how about the formation of Muslim German shooting clubs? Das wäre eine Idee! Just imagine the possibilities for club uniforms.

  8. seems odd that some here bemoan the germans for their exclusivity in this particular article, but i’ve seen comments on this ttag forum belonging to posters that scream their southern redneck pride with such fervor as to make these germans look like members of a united colors of beneton ad

    • Hmm, dakiwi13. I have yet to see of what you speak;(I’ve been posting for a while) maybe you could copy and paste from the archives showing such examples of “screaming red neck pride”.

  9. The western European model of ‘multi-culturism’ isn’t working. They need a little E pluribus unum. If the Turk wants to dress up in lederhosen and shoot guns with his Aryan friends they should by all means encourage him.

      • Meanwhile in Germany there are Muslim neighborhoods that the fire departments won’t go into out of fear of being beheaded.

      • When people do idiotic things, it’s generally quite obvious regardless of which side of the ocean it is on.

      • Its called freedom of speech COMMENT MODERATED: we can make fun of them because we are free americans protected by constitutionally enumerated natural rights. Could it be privileged, dickish, and self-entitled? perhaps. But free speech it is.

        Now go shoot your wad somewhere else…

        • That free-speech thing goes both ways, dummkopf. I guess nobody ever taught you how that works. That is probably why you have to resort to childish name calling, it fits your IQ. Free speech is a good thing.

  10. My two cents, as a German gun-owner:

    I have a vague dislike for these traditional shooting clubs that require you to wear funny clothes. Many of the guys there are the German equivalent to Fudds. They are the sorts of people who are perfectly content with their .22s and frown at you for wanting to own a modern sporting rifle.
    My Dad once visited one of these small rural shooting clubs and was told that they only allowed members to shoot “high powered” guns after they trained/competed with air guns and .22s for a couple of years…

    This “National Association of Historic German Shooting Brotherhoods” seems to be particularly proud of its traditions. What’s really funny is that they also had a gay “Schützenkönig” a couple of years ago. What followed would be worth another mocking TTAG article:

    http://www.thelocal.de/20120311/41275

    “Although homosexual kings are accepted, the shooting club federation decided on Sunday evening that their male partners should not be allowed to appear with them in public. Instead, they should find a “replacement” female.”

    I checked out their website, and got a few laughs from it. They have a whole sub-division that focuses on the art of “correctly waving the flag”, led by a “Bundesfahnenschwenkermeisterin” (federal flag-waving master), who holds “Bundesfahnenschwenkerwertungsrichterlehrgänge” (federal flag-waving adjudicator courses of instruction) etc…. check out all those funny long compound nouns:

    http://schuetzen.erzbistum-koeln.de/Fahnenschwenken/

    On the other hand: As some of you said, it’s a private association and they can pick their members according to any criteria they want.
    No one would stop Muslims from founding their own shooting association. The only catch – you need 10.000 active members to be recognized.

    By the way, there’s some good news:
    Nowadays, there are more and more shooting clubs that don’t require you to wear Lederhosen and don’t force you to yodel before you fire your gun.
    The last decades have seen slight improvements in German gun laws. More and more young people get interested in shooting. Centerfire guns, including modern sporting rifles, have gained in popularity.
    Pro-gun organisations such as the German Rifle Association have formed and keep gaining influence.

    There’s still a long way to go, but compared to some other European countries we are not too bad off.

    • Keep up the good fight. Hopefully a few Europeans will notice how more and more Americans are carrying guns around and the violent crime rates are dropping. It’s one thing for the state to allow you to possess a firearm and another for the state to honor your right to self defense.

    • Good information! Also glad to hear that not all of Europe is a write-off as far as gun rights are concerned (Switzerland excepted.)

    • It seems you have a little insight on that subject, but being interested in german gun rights as well, I am afraid I have to assert there are almost none (left)…
      Where in the world can you see “slight improvements”? All the changes to gun laws after WWII went directly in the other direction, up to the point that germans now have central registration, which is almost always one step before confiscation.
      Germany doesn’t allow weapons for self-defense at all, not even knives or sprays! The numbers of private people allowed to carry weapons for self-defense went down to virtually non existent, if you “apply” for a license, you earn laughter, but nothing else.
      The biggest gun association sold out the already marginal “rights” like hotcakes, and what is left is depending on the grace and restriction of the almighty father state and his compliant cronies.
      I am sorry, but I can’t see the improvements.

  11. Germany developed the basic law (it’s previous constitution after ww2 before unification) Anti tolerance is disgraceful. If this club was based in a faith, as alleged, the winning member wouldn’t have been allowed in the first place. The fact he was and then investigated is an extreme form of poor sportsmanship. The fact it’s the Germans makes it all the worse. Have they learned nothing.

    • People never get disqualified from sporting events for not meeting the rules, after the fact. Especially in places like the Olympics, or NASCAR, or any number of other places. It would be extreme bad sportsmanship to disqualify a winner for not meeting the requirements to compete. (sarc) Ask Lance Armstrong.

  12. “Choice of fatherland”

    Many Turks in Germany have been there for generations and have no real connection to Turkey. But they will never be citizens because they are not German. Most countries base citizenship and laws on history and ethnic requirements. Thank god I as a mutt live in a country that has declared my natural rights as a member of this species, even if we digress sometimes.

    • Yep; I’m German, Scottish, French and something unknown(My mom was adopted and her records were sealed,but the rumor is American Indian).

      For me, being an American is the best ethnicity I can be. The neat part, so can anyone else, regardless as to what other country you might be from. Be all that you can be, just as long as you don’t try to take my G-d given rights away or blame me for whether your are as successful in life as you would want to be.

      • “American” is not an ethnicity, it’s a nationality. It takes a tad longer than that to actually create a distinct ethnicity, and it’s practically impossible in any case when the country has a melting pot policy and heavy immigration. You can assimilate those people, so they (or at least their kids) become American in any sense that practically matters, but their ethnicity, for anyone who would care about such, will still be defined by their ancestry.

    • “Many Turks in Germany have been there for generations and have no real connection to Turkey.”

      To be honest:
      A lot Turks in Germany have been there for generations and have no real connection to the german society.

      The “Schützenkönig” is well integrated in the german society, but as a muslim he is a member of a strongly catholic brotherhood with all its social network.

      Just my two cents.

  13. private club, private rules.

    would they also howl, if it had been an all gay Jewish gunclub, and a straight Christian or a Muslim entered surreptitiously, and won, if the bylaws specified that the contestant must be a gay Jew??

    though, the punchline really would be that a Jew couldn’t tell a non-Jew, let alone the utter failure of their gaydars.

    xD

    people really need to polish up on private property rights.

    • In Germany, they most likely would, actually. That kind of thing is generally treated pretty seriously there, for obvious historical reasons.

    • Not sure why it matters that they’re a private club…

      A private club can make their private rules, no matter how racist, but that doesn’t mean they’re entitled to not have anyone comment over it.

      • True:

        Hannibal says:
        August 8, 2014 at 07:43

        Not sure why it matters that they’re a private club…

        A private club can make their private rules, no matter how racist, but that doesn’t mean they’re entitled to not have anyone comment over it.

        Agreed: no, it does NOT matter that it’s a private club, in context of whether anyone can or cannot comment on their internal policies, no matter “how racist.”

        That said, nothing I stated in reference to the article cited, nor mentioned anything about whether one should or should not be forbidden from commenting on a private club’s private rules.

        The fact that you just did, er…comment on it, simply proves that apparently, anyone CAN comment on anything, at anytime, from anywhere there’s an internet access. I never stopped ya, the German club didn’t stop ya, nor did my arguendo fictitious “all gay Jew gunclub”-example ‘stopped’ ya. xD

        However, in point of fact, in context of whether ‘racist’ policies are okay or not, it DOES in fact matter, whether the club in question is private, or ‘public’ (no such thing, as in reality when ‘everyone owns it,’ nobody owns it, as anything ‘public’ is funded via tax-theft, but for the sake of discussion, ya ‘get’ the gist).

        If the gun-club/range referenced in the article was, say…an ‘open to public-foot traffic,’ or a taxpayer-funded gun-club/range, and IF the said state or nation in which the ‘public’ gun club/range is located, is by law forbidden to discriminate on basis of gender, race, sexual orientation, etc, as is the case in many Western nations tend to be, of course: it matters.

        But, commenting is always free. Consequences? Mileage may vary, as like it or not, whether one’s thoughts or statements are accepted or denied depends on how a given culture & society in question, values such thinking.

  14. I once shot an elephant in my pajamas.
    What he was doing in my pajamas, I’ll never know.

    Groucho.

  15. Turks are a special case in Germany.

    Back in the late 40s, Germany was a smoking pile of rubble, and was, for some reason, short of men able to do manual labor.

    So the invited a bunch of Turkish men on temporary visas (Gastarbeiter) to help rebuild. They were supposed to go home… but most never did.

    The tensions between German and Turk are somewhat like those between US citizens and Central American migrants.

  16. This is not ok. Islam is already inserting it’s tendrils into every facet of life in Germany and destroying all that is German. By 2060 it will cease being german and will look a lot more like the middle east.

  17. Quite funny, heard of this yesterday on TV and I’m pretty surprised that there is an article on TTAG about it. First of all I’m not a Christian, neither German, but I’m Austrian. If you have read the whole story you would know that he got accepted although they knew he was muslim and they hadn’t any problem with it.
    Alos there are enough other shooting clubs in Germany, you can’t tell me that non-christians can’t become member gun clubs and I’m pretty sure that there are more than enough gun clubs in the US which think the same or even more fanatic. There are also enough other way to get a firearms licence than to be member in a shooting club like this one. What grinds me the most is this “He may also want to re-think his choice of fatherland.” (from the article above), although you may be limited in you rights “to keep and bear arms “, but in exchange you get a much higher life quality than nearly everywhere else. I’m pretty glad that I’m Austrian, so I’ve got both.

    • I can’t comment on the other statements, but I have yet to see any sort of shooting club or range which would deny or even ask a member about their religious affiliation, because if they did the shitstorm would go nuclear.

  18. First of all, a german “Schützenverein” isn’t a shooting club. (Schutz=protection, custody, defense – Verein=union, society)
    A “Schützenverein” is much more a traditional kind of a local militia to protect the treasuries of their local churches in times of war and unrest. The oldest “Schützenverein” is the “Karlsschützengilde” in the city of Aachen, which was founded in the year 1198 (!). My “Schützengesellschaft” was founded in the year 1624 to protect the citizens and the treasury of the church (the only valuable things in this time) in the 30years war in Europe.
    So there is a very strong connection between the catholic church and the “Schützenverein” till nowadays. You’ll find this kind “Schützenvereine” only in the mostly catholic populated areas of Germany, Austria, The Netherlands, Luxemburg and Belgium.

    In this “Schützenverein”, the “Schützenkönig” (King of the Society/Union) has to be shooted out in a competition once a year by rifle or crossbow (because these cahtolic unions were suspicious to the NAZI’s, they confiscates the guns of these catholic unions and allowed them to shoot with big, bulky and heavy crossbows or rifles). In my “Schützengesellschaft” we do not practice shooting trainings, we even have no shooting range. We shoot exactly one day in a year at our “Königsvogelschuss”.
    Today the purpose of these unions is to take action in different fairs and to support some church services and catholic holidays.
    Nevertheless some “Schützenvereine” have shooting branches and they are practicing with air rifles or .22cal and take part in shooting competitions, but this has nothing to do with a “Schützenkönig”.
    So you can see, that all this is a strongly connected to tradition and catholic church.
    Therefore it should be easily understandable, that it might be a problem for a muslim “Schützenkönig” to represent his union and to take part in all these activities.
    It is a question of a very old tradition.

    It is really no problem for a muslim in germany to be a member in a normal shooting-club with training and competition.

    Greetings from Germany
    Beware your 2nd Amandment rights!
    Holger

    Link:
    http://www.sebastianusschuetzen1624wuerselen.de/

    • By the way, I am also a member of a cun club in germany.
      Semi auto, 9mm, .223, .308, 8×57 – no prob
      No religion, no tradition.
      Just shooting i.a.w. our national gun law.

      Keep your 2nd Amandment!

  19. So, a private club with an old rule gets shouted down by the German public, and this is held up as an example of Germans being religiously intolerant? There would be cause to complain if the German public had backed the club and the trophy taken away. As it is, this is like a triumph of German tolerance. Contrast this to the denial of building mosques and the hate spouted daily by Fox news in the US.

    Also, Germans do not share the American obsession with guns, so the gun rights angle would be lost on them.

  20. It’s not as if this doesn’t happen in America. Golfer Tom Watson backed out of a tournament a few years ago when he learned the club the tournament was at restricted patronage to only include protestant Christians, Watson’s wife and two children are Jewish and he didn’t feel they’d be welcomed. Also, you should check your spelling on Deutschland. I love that TTAG is the site to worry about German’s tolerance of muslims. I’ve read some comments here that would make the average Gestapo member physically sick.

  21. Yes, of course. There are many “Schützenbrüderschaften” in Germany, as Holger Deussen has stated. And many of those guys actually don’t shoot at all. Maybe once in a year to crown a “Schützenkönig”. These societies very seldom do serious shooting competitions. The Club life consists mainly of social life, festivals or parades. And all of these rites originated from medieval church tradition. The Club of the turkish Schützenkönig didn’t even realize that this old rule existed at all and, if so, didn’t even bother about it. Only the catholic “Dachverband” found out, that they were Christian in the end.

    But let’s forget the Schützen, who don’t go shooting. There are also enough German brothers and sisters in arms, who only like to shoot and leave the parades to others. And guess, what. They also wear Lederhosen. BUCKSKINS ! Check it out. The well regulated German militia.

    http://www.schwarzpulverunion.de

  22. So, People of the Gun are against the 1st Amendment? Are the People of the Gun against freedom of association in principle or just because it is politically correct? Do you think you can buy the good will of communists by pandering to their totalitarian tendencies?

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