It Should Have Been A Defensive Gun Use: Charlottesville Edition

Assault (courtesy

“[Jeanne] Doucette said the assault occurred after she and [Marc] Adams, both 39, had met for a drink at Miller’s after Adams finished his shift as chef for a downtown food cart,” reports. “Adams tripped and fell in front of Derriere de Soie lingerie store. As he was getting up, a man approached quickly, said something that Doucette couldn’t make out, and kicked Adams while he was on the ground, before being joined by his friends who beat Adams severely, breaking his ankle, cracking ribs and knocking out one of his teeth.” The assailants also pummeled Doucette, who “suffered bruising to her head and tearing of the cartilage in her ear.” Clearly . . .

This should have been a defensive gun use.

Mr. Adams was subjected to a brutal attack that could have claimed his life. Ms. Doucette was also in harm’s way, and could have paid for her loyalty (i.e., not fleeing) with her life. If the attack went down as described, either American could have, should have used a firearm to defend themselves from these callous, vicious thugs.

But the article doesn’t mention this fact. Instead it focuses on police inaction on Ms. Doucette’s cell phone camera pictures. The cops failed to disseminate the images or secure security camera evidence. Their “excuse”?

According to CPD spokesperson Ronnie Roberts, investigators canvassed the Downtown area after the assault but did not find anyone matching the description of the alleged assailants. Police did not release Doucette’s pictures to the public, Roberts said, because they believed surveillance video from the bank might offer clearer images, and they hoped officers might recognize some of the men in Doucette’s photos without tipping them off that they were being sought.

Roberts said police requested the bank video on Friday, December 27, a week after the attack, and had not received it as of Sunday, December 29.

You can argue with the cops’ logic. You can sense the bureaucratic inefficiency. But really, what does it matter? Society would be/will be/may be safer when the perpetrators are caught and punished. But the deed is done. Ms. Doucette and Mr. Adams have already been brutalized. Truth be told, he didn’t have to be. If either or both had been armed they wouldn’t have been defenseless.

The People of the Gun like to point out that locking-up bad people is a far more effective strategy for public safety than limiting or preventing law-abiding citizens’ access to firearms. That’s true. It’s also true that the more people who carry a gun the less likely it is that anyone will be attacked.

Armed Americans = deterrence. That’s a fact that bears repeating every time unarmed Americans are assaulted, especially in parts of the country (e.g., New Jersey) where the gun rights are frustrated by government fiat. The real “knock-out game” is the government putting the kibosh on Americans natural, civil and Constitutionally protected right to keep and bear arms.  As the Bush-bashing Dixie Chicks sang, there’s your trouble.


  1. How odd, I found this very article inserted in an entry on the subject of “When seconds count the police are minutes away.”

    1. avatar Blair says:

      You don’t even know the half of it. All of this took place a mere five minutes walk from the police department at 6th and Market.

  2. avatar Hannibal says:

    Releasing a crappy photo is usually a great way to screw up an investigation.

    What an odd incident.

  3. avatar tdiinva says:

    This is operator error. Undoubtely Mr Adams and Ms.Doucette are in sync with the University town antigun ethic. A CHL is easy to obtain in Virginia and if you don’t want to go through the process you can open carry. Perhaps these two fine citizens will become liberals who have been mugged and learn to take responsiblity of their own protecton.

    1. avatar rlc2 says:

      Heh. A literal example of the quote:
      “A Conservative is a Liberal mugged by Reality”.

    2. avatar B says:

      They just left a bar after having drinks. If both partook they couldn’t have legally been armed according to Virginia law. Still, someone should have been armed and helped stop such a brutal act. New Jersey and DC seem to be leaking south.

      1. avatar tdiinva says:

        I base my comments on the fact that most CHL holders would probably avoid the both drunk and walking after midnight routine. C-ville doesn’t not have particularly low crime rate and drunk millienials make a juicy target.

        It also sounds like the thugs took advantage of a target of opportunity rather than picking someone out. This is a learning experience for the couple.

        1. avatar Jus Bill says:

          Yup, sounds like they decided to play “bounce the Hipster.”

        2. avatar karlb says:

          39 year-olds are hipster millennials?

  4. avatar Al Cohol says:

    …And this is where the whole should you carry if you’re gonna have a drink or two argument comes into play. Obviously if you are out to party all night and get drunk its a definite no-no, but if its just one or two do you carry or not?

    1. avatar rlc2 says:

      IMHO don’t drink and carry.

      Looks like the Charlottesville downtown bar scene falls under the definition of the 3 S’s rule.

      Too bad for the merchants. Did the cops forget who pays their salary?

      1. avatar Braenen says:

        So, we could start the “Designated Carrier” concept like MADD did with the “Designated Driver”. Sounds like a good idea to me.

        1. avatar Al Cohol says:

          I like this idea.

        2. avatar Hannibal says:

          It’s done in police circles, especially in cities. Often the designated driver is also the designated shooter.

        3. avatar Dirk Diggler says:

          I am the designated carrier when I go out with the Fellas from my church. They let me pick my seat first (back to the wall, thank you w eye on door) and they usually sport me an appetizer or something. I don’t mind b/c I would rather be alive and sober than not.

      2. avatar William Burke says:

        “Forget”? THEY NEVER REMEMBERED. Arrogant sh*theads.

    2. avatar Nathanael says:

      I carry while drinking, both at home and while at a bar or pub. I don’t get drunk, I remain in control of myself, and I remain able to defend myself and others. Thankfully, I live in a state where this is allowed, so I don’t have to make any hard choices about enjoying a pint with my meal or leaving my gun at home/in the car.

      If someone is unable to control themselves while drinking, or is inclined to drink to the point of being impaired, they should ditch the gun before hitting the bars, but it should be up to the individual to decide. And, of course, if someone commits a crime with his gun while drunk, he should face the music.

      1. avatar Al Cohol says:

        What state is that? Sounds like I need to move..

        1. avatar Nathanael says:

          I’ve lived in several states that allow concealed carry in bars, even while consuming alcohol. Oregon, Indiana, West Virginia. If anyone knows otherwise, let me know, but I’ve looked through the state laws and the various summaries provided by the state governments and found nothing prohibiting it.

          For me it’s not a problem. I’ll have a drink or two tonight while watching the Sugar Bowl. I’ll have a Glock on me (probably the 26, as it’s the most comfortable for home carry) and nothing will happen with it (well, unless someone tries to break in). I won’t shoot up the house or the neighborhood after a beer or two. And the same when carrying out at a pub. I’m not going to start shooting just because I had a beer with my burger or pizza or fish and chips.

          For some people, who get drunk quickly, or who have alcohol abuse problems, carrying while drinking may be a bad idea. But for me, it’s no different that carrying at any other time.

        2. avatar Jonathan -- Houston says:

          AZ, GA, OH, TN, VA and NC (the most recent) all allow concealed carry in real bars. I don’t know whether that means you’re allowed to drink, though, or just be armed on the premises. There may be other states, but these are just the ones I’ve read of. I didn’t know there was even one such state until just a few weeks ago.

      2. avatar Navillus says:

        It is illegal in VA to have even one drink in a bar/restaurant in you’re CC-ing. Oddly enough, outside a bar/restaurant, you have to be “under the influence of alcohol” in a public place to break the law while CC-ing. So, it seems like downing a few beers at a friend’s house and walking home armed is OK, but a single brew in a bar makes you illegal. Logical, right? BTW, I am not a lawyer, YMMW, etc.

    3. avatar Jonathan -- Houston says:

      In Texas, the two relevant rules are:

      1) You may not carry while “intoxicated.” That’s defined in the law based in the usual factors. It’s also legally presumed, as with driving, at .08 BAC regardless of actual impairment.

      2) You may not carry at all, even if not drinking, into an establishment which derives 51% of its revenue from the sale of on-site consumed alcohol, and has posted the proper sign to that effect.

      So here’s the thing, you can sit snd drink armed at the bar at a restaurant like Outback Steakhouse, and as long as you aren’t impaired and aren’t over .08 BAC, you’re fine.

      That’s a ludicrous contradiction. I think should be able to carry in real bars and drink, so long as you’re not impaired or over .08 BAC. Same with driving, by the way. Who am I hurting by having a beer on the drive hime, who wouldn’t be hurt if I had that same beer and another at happy hour before driving home?

    4. avatar Cliff H says:

      Even if you have had a drink or two (or more), but the event was a legitimate DGU, which penalty would be greater – getting the shit kicked out of you and your date (and maybe killed), or possibly being prosecuted by some dipshit DA because you used your weapon to defend yourself even though your were tipsy?

      The whole “…judged by 12 rather than carried by 6…” comment comes to mind.

  5. avatar dakiwi13 says:

    so he was too drunk to walk? and he should be carrying a gun? i’m sorry, situational awareness dictates that he should not be drinking, be stumbling around in that part of town, if he was drinking then he shouldn’t be armed as he then poses a danger to himself and others

    1. avatar Stinkeye says:

      Where do you see it stated that he was “falling-down drunk”? The story says he tripped and fell. Sober people can stumble, too.

      1. avatar Hannibal says:

        And zebras leave hoof-prints, but if you see one outside your house you might want to take the more likely example of “horse.”

        1. avatar William Burke says:

          Or it could a “zonkey”; I actually saw a pair of these in Virginia, this summer. And I have the photos to prove it…

    2. avatar Cliff H says:

      And the dangers others pose to him be damned?

      I am not advocating carrying while drunk. Frankly I have little respect or regard for people who get “falling down drunk” in public or for any reason, but it does not negate their natural, civil and Constitutionally protected right to bear arms in their own defense. If he breaks a law by doing something STUPID with his gun while he’s drunk, prosecute THAT.

  6. avatar Tommy says:

    There were actually pictures I saw online that the woman took that were VERY clear, unlike the one used above. There’s been talk that this case is being hushed up and/or not worked properly. Take that as you will.

    I fully agree that this is the type of incident that warrants DGU.

  7. avatar Ralph says:

    I’m shocked — shocked! — that anyone cruising the downtown bars could be mugged at one in the morning. That almost never happens.

    1. avatar Shenandoah says:

      What is it that the NFL teams tell their rookies every year after the draft? Nothing good ever happens after midnight.

      Sure, these two had the “right” to be out walking in this area at this time of night, but that right isn’t enough to protect them from dirtbags like this.

      Now if only she could have pulled out a .357 rather than a cell phone camera…

      1. avatar Cliff H says:

        “What is it that the NFL teams tell their rookies every year after the draft? Nothing good ever happens after midnight.”

        Not to put too fine a point on it, but EVERYTHING happens after midnight, good or bad.

        And if they are at home or in their hotel room I suspect a LOT of good things happen to NFL players. rookies or not. Groupies.

  8. avatar huck says:

    I have been doing 3-gun and USPSA for a few years and I feel very comfortable drawing from a holster and handling my pistol in different situations. I also drink waaaay too much, so I’m pretty functional after several beers. But, the thought of drawing my pistol in a defensive situation after even a couple beers is frightening to me.

  9. avatar Barstow Cowboy says:

    So this is what it’s come to. When attacked, generation nintendo neither fights nor flights, instead they come back at their attackers with a vicious facebook posting. We’re doomed.

    1. avatar Jeff says:

      the guy was drunk enough to fall while walking, and the girl was, well, a girl.

      this is one of the few cases where I’ll give the people some leeway for not fighting back..

      it’s the bystanders who I’m seriously disgusted by. instead of intervening, they just took pictures or called 911. from the photos – lots of shops, cafes, and bars – it looks like this was a very busy area for night outings, and yet nobody did anything. nothing at all.

      1. avatar Hannibal says:

        Have you ever intervened in a situation that could get you killed?

        I’m impressed when people call 911 and take photos.

    2. avatar Dirk Diggler says:

      well, maybe the alcohol helped him forget about the butt thumping he received. . . . at age 39 though, he is too old to be out getting drunk. I hope she hooked him up later . . . .

    3. avatar William Burke says:

      That’s some notable sh*t, ain’t that?

  10. avatar Gregolas says:

    Massad Ayoob says in both cases that he worked on where the defendant justifiably shot a criminal BUT had consumed one drink, the jury’s found them guilty of a lesser -included offense. One of the foremen told Ayoob that they didn’t feel it was responsible to carry a gun with even ONE beer in you! This is the opposite of most juries in DUI cases (which I prosecuted for 71/2 years). In DUI’s, jurors who drink are sympathetic (as long as they think it’s a first DUI) b/c so many people drink and drive. Just another example of how the general public looks at firearms differently. But that’s the reality of it.

  11. avatar Mark N. says:

    And here I thought that Friday night beat downs were an old American tradition. At least in certain parts of town.

  12. avatar MotoJB says:

    Those savages need to be strung up…

  13. avatar Sammy says:

    Has our AG of the US investigated the remote possibility that this might , though the odds are against it, racially motivated?? Hello Eric?……………Hello?

    1. avatar Matt in FL says:

      Eric Holder could not be reached for comment.

  14. avatar vioshi says:

    How many similar incidents occurred that same night? That week? When it occurs frequently enough, or the cops are too busy with more serious crimes, it doesn’t get the attention it deserves.
    Just like the stories out of Britain where armed robbery is an everyday occurrence and is treated like jay-walking, no blood no foul.

  15. avatar Bdk NH says:

    There is so much wrong with this. First, it should have been a DGU. Second, bystanders watch and feel compelled to call the Police but not get involved while people are getting brutally attacked? Cowards.

    The rest of the posts have glossed over the race factor here. When I see these stories over and over again I cant help but think that the racial divides in this country have gotten wider in the past few years. Furthermore, political correctness has run roughshod over common sense and truth telling. The truth is, the “knockout game” is an an abbreviation. It’s full name is the “knock out the creepy cracker game.” Racism is not limited to white people only. If this attack is racially motivated then I hope the authorities have the courage to charge these thugs accordingly and put them away for a long time.

    As for drinking and carrying, I no longer drink when out friends and family who are partaking. Some wonder why and a few know but the two don’t mix for me. I like to catch a buzz just as much as the next guy but only do it at home nowadays. I pray that I do not have to face down three attackers in the street while out with my wife but if I do, I will be armed and ready to do what needs to be done.

    1. avatar Hannibal says:

      Unless you happen to George Zimmerman I’m not sure you’ve got the right or experience to call anyone a coward for not intervening.

      Everyone’s tough until they meet someone (or some people) tougher.

      1. avatar Bdk NH says:

        Not sure what your reference to GZ is but I have every right to call a bystander who did nothing a coward. It has nothing to do with toughness. I wouldn’t expect someone to go Bruce Lee or Chuck Norris and take on 3 guys but there are ways of slowing bullies down with out throwing a punch.

        1. avatar Jus Bill says:

          Like hitting them in the fist with your face a few times?

        2. avatar Bdk NH says:

          @ Jus Bill- Not all of us middle aged white dudes are ready made punching bag knockout victims. Some of us have a significant amount of martial arts, wrestling, and MMA (actually Sambo) training and have been in their fair share of street fights. Never mind the fact that I stay in shape and am ALWAYS well armed.

          Now, I know that my prime has long passed and I don’t go around looking for trouble. However, I assure you that I know what to do if it finds me. I would suggest that everyone else do the same.

    2. avatar Cliff H says:

      I am almost always driving when I go out, and always carrying. When I have dinner I have a beer. One. I like the taste a whole lot more than I like to be drunk.

      As for intervening, three bullies doing a beat-down on a drunk guy and his hysterical girlfriend are brave only because they think no one has the balls to confront them. It’s three against one and a half, at most. It is highly probable that in MOST case simply brandishing and getting their attention would result in 100 meter dashes equal to Olympic qualification times. This is not a guarantee, obviously, but I believe a statistical probability. Either why I cannot see myself standing around Tweeting pictures while two people are being savagely beaten. As a further consideration, with all those other people taking pictures, it should be easy to defend your brandishing and or DGU should it come to court.

    3. avatar William Burke says:

      In the sixties and even the seventies, I was forced off the sidewalk by gaggles of Yoots, walking 5-6 abreast on the sidewalk. They never made a single move to allow me through. The stupid, arrogant little bastards actually thought the good work of Dr. King gave them carte blanche to do things like that. Too bad he never saw things like that; he would have been mortified, and deeply saddened – “look what they’ve done to my song, Ma….”

  16. avatar Jack says:

    This kind of situation is a no-win for the assault victims and for gun rights. If one of the victims had shot the attackers, the media might have portrayed the incident as a fight that ended in a shooting–with the “shooting victims” unarmed. And then the attackers would have been rolled into the “gun violence” statistics.

    Let’s not forget that people who are opposed to the civil right of gun ownership truly believe that a shooting is never justified. A case in point is the “You’ll heal” nugget from Paul Quander two years ago.

    1. avatar Cliff H says:

      Let’s not forget that more than half the people you might run into in any urban setting these days is carrying a camera and/or video and knows how to get their stuff on YouTube. Plus the police easily found a bank security camera. The entire incident would very likely be thoroughly documented.

    2. avatar William Burke says:

      “It was their own fault for being there.” Damn, my carpet’s getting wet and slimy.

  17. avatar DBM says:

    Give me a break, The cops did nothing because the perps are black and the victims are white and in Camden NJ. Notice no where in the story does it say the perps are black, If they had been white they would have already released detail information on them

  18. avatar William Burke says:

    I would have expected no better of Charlottesville, VA, “the Santa Fe of the East”. Those familiar with the mindset of Santa Feans will catch my drift… motto: “The City Different”! Which “inspired” the dreadful city fathers of Taos to come up with “Life at a Higher Level”!! Sorry, I have to go puke.

    If this is “inspiration”, then I’m Calamity Jane.

    1. avatar Shenandoah says:

      Never have I ever been to Santa Fe, yet I know precisely what you are talking about.

  19. avatar J.K. says:

    Reminds me of this similar “Should have been a DGU” that occurred in Austin:

    Two of the four are still at large.

    And, coincidentally, for the cop cut-out because they’re well trained category that was linked in the above page:

  20. avatar Pat says:

    I dream about taking out thugs like that.

    1. avatar William Burke says:

      And the liberals dream of that thug taking you out.

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