I have a sneaking suspicion TTAG’s Armed Intelligentsia were inspired by Westerns—in a good way. You know: honor, courage, justice, gun fighting. High Noon. True Grit. That sort of thing. By the same token, the “guns and alcohol don’t mix” meme promoted by gun control advocates agitating against concealed carry in bars and at sporting events—most recently propagated by Joey Kennedy’s al.com attaboy for Alabama University’s decision to ban guns from Crimson Tide’s Bryant-Denny Stadiumis equally informed by Westerns. My Name is Nobody may not be the best Western ever made, but the guns ‘n drinking in the saloon thing is boilerplate cinematic fodder. How can The People of the Gun reassure low-info voters that concealed carry licensees are responsible people looking to defend themselves (and maybe) others in bars and arenas? That they’re not “concealed carry killers“? Or is it impossible; one of those “don’t think of a pink elephant” deals?

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102 Responses to Question of the Day: How Do You Argue for Concealed Carry in Bars and Sports Arenas?

  1. I don’t want to defend myself inside a sports arena. I want to defend myself on my way to and from a sports arena, and it isn’t really practical to check my gun at the door, certainly not if any large fraction of the fans are doing this.

    This isn’t theoretical. The Seattle Mariners and Seahawks stadiums are in the worst part of town and fans have been victimized, several even murdered. Not many in any given year, but still, if you want to carry for self-protection at all, the stadium district in Seattle is one of the places you would want that the most.

    It is a general point. Forbidding guns at a destination inherently also forbids them while going to and from that destination.

    Bars are a different story. Alcolhol and gunpowder really don’t mix. It is illegal in Washington State to carry in a bar unless you work there. Criminals don’t obey the law, of course, but repealing it would be a really hard sell whereas the sports arena argument would be easier I think.

    • Exactly, I have gotten the question before. “Who do need a gun at _____”. (fill in the blank with various fun and reasonably secure locations).

      I usually ask them in return, Do wear pants in a public restroom?
      Them: What?
      Me: Pants, do you wear pants to the restroom?
      Them: Yes, I suppose.. but what…?
      Me: Why do need pants in the bathroom? Pants only get in the way when you are in there. Or, is it only because you were already wearing them when you got there? I may not need my gun here but first I had to get here.

    • +1 As a fellow Seattleite, I have to agree with you, Matthew. Plus… the new “transparent” bag rule at all Seahawk games is going to be a pain in the arse. Sigh.

      Ironically, there’s always a big police presence around either stadium immediately after the game, but it’s to handle traffic more than anything else. And what criminal is dumb enough to rob someone right outside of the busy stadium?

      Walk about 3-4 blocks in any direction (Sodo, Pioneer Square, Chinatown/ID, etc.) and things get a little shady. Makes me sad, because Chinatown at night used to be a lot safer growing up as a kid. Seattle PD as of late seem content to push all the sketchy homeless / addicts into the area and leave the residents to fend for ourselves. The random shootings that went down last year in Pioneer Square were awful too (Nicole Westbrook). =/

      • As a CPL-carrying King County resident, I am not a fan of disarming just to go in to Safeco or CenturyLink Field. I’ll just have to find some other stuff to do.

  2. Because being in the same space as alcoholic beverages isn’t the same as drinking. Otherwise, designated drivers would be impossible.

    What’s the actual dangerous behavior? Carrying a gun with impaired judgment. If you’re sitting in a bar drinking Diet Coke, how is that different from sitting in a Denny’s drinking Diet Coke?

    • CORRECT. And as you have pointed out before, it’s legal to sit in a restaurant and get drunk while carrying, but illegal to sit in a bar and have a soft drink while carrying. That makes no sense. But if we push that issue, what we’ll probably hear is an outcry for closing the “loophole” of allowing people to carry in restaurants where alcohol is served.

      • Getting drunk in a restaurant while carrying is not legal anywhere concealed carry is allowed; it becomes carrying a dangerous weapon under a disability.

        • Your “anywhere” is mistaken. As I cited elsewhere, Florida’s statutes criminalize the “use” of a firearm while impaired, not the mere possession.

      • Earlier, I said it’s legal to get drunk in a restaurant in WA State while carrying concealed (but illegal to set foot in a bar while carrying, even if you’re not drinking any alcohol). I still can’t find a law that says otherwise, but I did find this in RCW 9.41.098: “The superior courts and the courts of limited jurisdiction of the state may order forfeiture of a firearm which is proven to be…In the possession of a person who is in any place in which a concealed pistol license is required, and who is under the influence of any drug or under the influence of intoxicating liquor, as defined in chapter 46.61 RCW.”

  3. You could ask the hysterical banners to cite a single instance of bar CC leading to a shootup in a bar. Just one. They can’t, of course, but don’t expect that to deter them.

  4. I don’t go to bars (partly because it’s illegal in WA to enter with a gun, but mostly because I don’t like the smell/taste of alcohol), but I’m pretty sure they don’t have prohibitions on carrying car keys into bars, or driving to the bar. Cars + alcohol kill way more people than guns + alcohol.

    • I’d say something along the lines of, don’t hafta go to a bar to get smashed, or go to a sporting event to be armed amongst a large group of people.

      Such laws are essentially trying to regulate thought crime. They assume that people go to these places to cause trouble and to minimize the damage people shouldn’t be armed. Can go down a myriad of possibilities, such as, assassinating players on the field, shooting sprees, drunken gun fights over teams. I concede that some people do go to events & bars to cause trouble, but that is a good reason to have a self defense weapon.

      Basically if we are gonna assume that every person is potentially dangerous and we must do something to prevent tragedy, then we might as well start off in prisons cause there are so many opportunities and methods to do serious harm. Woman squats out a baby into a crib and place a sealed top on it and eventually if that baby behaves really well it may be able to be put in a slightly larger room, but never truly free. Our society could not exist if majority of those in it were homicidal maniacs whose only reasons for not killing are laziness and lack of creativity. Nor could it if every person required some overlord(s) to dictate what is or isn’t allowed else we’ll get piss drunk and off each other. And this comes from someone who is a misanthropist.

  5. I would ask why only at bars and sporting events? If you truly don’t want guns and alcohol to mix then that should be the law everywhere. Make it a misdemeanor, felony or whatever to consume alcohol while armed. Then there is no need for the special rule in bars, restaurants or sporting events. It’s not like those are the only places people drink. It makes more sense to me to criminalize the undesired behaviour than it does to criminalize the potential behaviour based on your location.

    • Hypothetical Question: You are drinking at home, an intruder performs a home invasion busting through your front door, can you legally defend yourself? If you were home carrying? If you had the gun in the safe and went and got it?

      I agree make drinking and “carrying” illegal makes the most sense. In public only?

      • Blanket drinking and carrying prohibitions make no sense. You’re basically forcing an entire class of people to become teetotalers if they want to engage in self-protection. Please see my remarks a few comments down about my last week in Virginia, where imbibing while carrying is prohibited by law. It’s a pain in the ass, and it resulted in me giving up and leaving the gun at home, because we spent one whole day doing a brewery/winery/cidery tour. (By the way, on that day, I was the driver, all day long, so though I had a few drinks throughout the course of the day, I was well-paced, and well-fed to mitigate the effects.) But even on the other days, not being able to have a single beer with lunch or dinner is asinine.

        • Oh, I forgot to say, Florida has what I consider to be very good, rational firearms laws for the most part, and the consumption of alcohol is another place where they got it right, in my opinion. To wit:

          Florida Statute 790.151 (3) It is unlawful and punishable as provided in subsection (4) for any person who is under the influence of alcoholic beverages, any chemical substance set forth in s. 877.111, or any substance controlled under chapter 893, when affected to the extent that his or her normal faculties are impaired, to use a firearm in this state.

          “Use” is defined thusly:

          As used in ss. 790.151-790.157, to “use a firearm” means to discharge a firearm or to have a firearm readily accessible for immediate discharge. For the purposes of this section, “readily accessible for immediate discharge” means loaded and in a person’s hand.

          So, you can drink, but you can’t use a firearm (per their definition) if you are impaired. That seems fair to me.

          And then you get to the final line: (5) This section does not apply to persons exercising lawful self-defense or defense of one’s property.

          Again, this seems fair to me. “You can’t drink while carrying ever, EVER” does not seem reasonable to me.

        • Florida’s law is the rational standard. The dangerous behavior is carrying a firearm with impaired judgment. Period. People need to take responsibility for that and anything else is ignorant and hindering public safety.

        • Colorado is similar. Neither carrying into a bar nor drinking while carrying is prohibited.

          However, it’s a class 2 misdemeanor if you’re in possession of a firearm while under the influence. CRS 18-12-106(d).

      • It’s easy to justify having a drink, or two, and that it does not impair judgment. And, many states don’t specifically outlaw carrying and having a drink. Most state laws say something to the affect of “being under the influence,” but are not specific as to what blood/alcohol level is considered under the influence.

        Colorado allows a person to carry in a bar, but cannot consume alcohol in the bar, though it’s OK to consume in a restraint… just so long as you’re not under the influence. Wyoming does not allow one to carry in a bar, but it’s OK to drink in a bar/restraint, so long as it is not in a section that its sole purpose is to consume alcohol… essentially, if they also serve food, then it’s ok to carry.

        None of it makes much sense. But, should I ever have to defend myself using my firearm, I certainly don’t want to worry about the prosecution having any leverage as to the sate of my sobriety. Bottom line, if I intend to drink more than a single serving, the gun does into the safe.

        • Blue, excellent point, and one that I’ve considered. It comes down to a personal choice. In CO, there’s too much grey area in the CCW law as to what constitutes “under the influence”. My personal choice is rather conservative, at least in the CCW community. Everyone has to evaluate this risk on their own.

        • I understand what you are saying. I try to avoid joints that are so dangerous they check you for guns and knives at the door and if you don’t have one, the give you one.

        • “Colorado allows a person to carry in a bar, but cannot consume alcohol in the bar, ”

          Cite please? I’ve not yet seen anything which prohibits a carrier from consuming alcohol in a bar.

  6. The burden of proof is on the one making the assertion. In this case, the grabbers are saying that cc in bars (even by non drinkers) will be a wild west blood in the streets ordeal… So far, they have boot provided any proof of this, they just expect us to accept it as gospel because that’s what they “feel” will happen.

  7. Well, the nearby BWW has one of those arcade hunting games and i can speak from experience that my aim, even with a toy rifle, goes to shit after a few beers. But there’s absolutely no reason you shouldn’t be able to have a fine brew with a meal while carrying. If you’re ok to drive, you’re ok to carry as far as i’m concerned.

  8. I have, on numerous occasions, frequented bars, restaurants and other places with the accursed no-firearms sign, while discretely armed. I am not inclined to get rowdy or argumentative, and if the occasion to display a firearm should arise, at least I’ll have the opportunity to defend myself in court.

    • There is always the risk of some drunk goober reaching back and knocking the crap out of you for some goofy excuse.

        • Well never forget that “well regulated” means something like “well equipped and prepared”. It wasn’t written to give a means to force the militia or any other use of arms out of existence with laws and rules.

        • Regulated were those that mustered (Think Ethan Allen & the Green Mtn Boys) and those that didn’t, unorganized. In the early 20th Century the Federalization of the National Guard messed with the 1st type badly. However, they do exist since many states still have a “regular” and unorganized militia. In Florida, everyone not in the U.S. Military or National Guard is in the latter.

          @Soccerchains- I know that. That was my point. The militia part is a prefatory clause.

          250.02 Militia.—
          (1) The militia consists of all able-bodied citizens of this state and all other able-bodied persons who have declared their intention to become citizens.
          (2) The organized militia is composed of the National Guard and any other organized military forces that are authorized by law.
          (3) The unorganized militia is composed of all persons who are subject to military duty but who are not members of units of the organized militia.
          (4) Only persons exempt from military duty by the terms of federal law are exempt from military duty in this state.

  9. I believe a person is smart, people are dumb. I’m sure the statistics prove that guns in bars don’t promote wild shootings. I recall a shootout recently that was outside the bar, as the patrons argued in the bar, and ran out to their cars to get their guns. I don’t recall if they were legal owners or not.

    If carry is allowed in bars, punishment for “SWI” should be very severe.

    I can understand the argument for banning guns at sports arenas. Fights regularly break out at sporting events. Look at soccer in Europe and the rest of the world; how many people have died being crushed against fences? Mob mentality. If some depressed gambler just lost his month’s payday (or welfare) betting on his beloved Cowboys, would he take out his frustration by shooting Romo? Or a crazy stalker waiting for an autograph blasts her little .380 at the object of her affection? Crazy fans are a good enough reason to prohibit firearms at sports events, even if those bans are routinely circumvented by the crazies. But in short, there won’t be enough time for a DGU.

    But that’s the argument pro-ban would propose. However, in the umpteen years we’ve had professional sports, how many times has something like that happened?

    • Professional athletes (famous female tennis star, I believe) have been stabbed while on the job. They’ve been beaten and stomped by crowds. Knocked senseless and blood by thrown objects. Even been kneecapped by an iron pipe (Kerrigan). It can be dangerous being at the center of so much passion from tens of thousands of worked up people. If it’s only 1 in a thousand that’s dangerous, that’s still 100 people at every super bowl.

    • Never mind the utterly insane fans, I thought the whole point of carrying to sporting events was to protect ones self from the thugs on the field/court.

  10. As Matt said in the first comment, because it’s more about the “to and from” than the “at,” but by precluding the “at” you are by definition precluding the “to and from.” It’s the same reason many states have “parking lot laws” for employees. It’s the same reason I object to the prohibition on campus carry, because I can’t carry a security guard through the parking garage.

    Another way to argue for it is the fact that concealed carry permit holders, as a class, are far more, demonstrably more, statistically more, law-abiding than most of the yahoos at a given bar or sporting event.

    On a sorta related note, I just spent 5 days in Virginia, and I’ve decided that a blanket prohibition on alcohol consumption while carrying is a pain in the ass. The whole time I was there I had to measure the likelihood of having a drink against my desire to carry. In the same way as the “to and from” versus “at” that I spoke of above, it quickly became more of a hassle than it was worth, and I ended up leaving the iron at home. Sure I could have carried concealed anyway, but I’m not in the habit of breaking the law on purpose.

    • Tennessee is like that also. I go up there several times a year. I have forgot while at a Chili’s or similar place and remember after about 2 beers that I “ain’t” in Florida anymore.

  11. The source of the problem is cultural orientation regarding the RKBA.

    Most states view carrying a weapon as a government granted privilege,not a recognized civil right.At first blush this may seem like semantics,but in truth there is a great chasm in thought between those concepts.A government granted privilege is subject to social restriction.A civil right is not.

    Thus ,solving this issue requires changing the culture to accept the RKBA as a personal right.Considering our schools and universities may as well be hoplophobe factories,it is a challenge of monumental proportions.

    • I’d add the our cultural orientation is nearly as backwards toward alcohol as it is to concealed carry. There are a lot of people in this country who don’t drink and would never be caught dead in a bar because that’s where all the “bad” people hang out. I know they exist because I happen to be related to a few of them. The biggest difference is that we’ve been moderating our phobia of alcohol for 80 years now, while the right to carry movement is only 20 years or so old. Some biases die hard, it wasn’t until 1978 that it became legal to brew your own beer at home for your own consumption and it’s still illegal to distill any liquor for your own consumption. Some things just take a generation or 3.

  12. I’d sit the hoplophobic twit down, buy him a glass of Macallan 25 and give him the Ravens plus eight against the Jets.

    If that didn’t work, then he’s clearly a horse’s @ss and should be shunned.

  13. I don’t argue for the right to carry in bars or stadiums. I don’t drink and I’m not paying my hard earned money to watch a bunch of millionaires play a game.

    • This.

      There are better places to make a push than here.

      Both sporting arenas and bars are filled with drunk assholes doing stupid shit. I avoid both for that reason.

      • Well, for what it’s worth, if I had to pick between bars and sporting events and campus carry, I’d take campus carry all day long.

        • Yes but….
          Aren’t we nibbling around the edges? We’ve allowed the opposition to get us debating the pros & cons of whether it’s ok to carry here but not there. To hell with that. The only places firearms should not be are places where there is high security and at the same time the real possibility that a stray bullet could cause a catastrophie. I’m thinking nuclear plants, chemical plants, gas storage facilities; you know, places that could injure or kill hundreds if they go boom. Even these places should have facilities to store firearms while the gunowner is on site because again, how are you going to get there?

      • This is an ignorant perspective. I consume alcohol, and take a lot of pleasure in it. But, I don’t often “drink” as is so often associated in the common vernacular, whereby a person consumes with the intent to be influenced. When I do “drink” I leave my firearm in the safe.

        Wyoming doesn’t allow carrying in bars. I was recently visiting Jackson with my wife, who wanted to take a break during her afternoon shopping spree, and just stop by a local patio bar for a quick drink. I had to remind her that WY doesn’t allow carrying in bars. Instead we walked over to Jackson Coffee Roasters. At that time, in the middle of a 90 degree day, I much preferred a cold beer over an espresso shot.

        The perspective that you’re not going to stand up for carrying in bars or arenas is the same perspective so called “hunters” use for not standing up for the rights to CCW or owning a sporting rifle. If we all just were looking out for “number one”, we’d all be in a world of hurt.

  14. In Iowa it’s legal not only to carry in a bar but you can drink too. That is as long as your BAL doesn’t hit the magic .08% which as everyone knows, is the point at which normally good drivers become reckless menaces and good law abiding CCW holders become murderous thugs. Even if the bar owner posts a “no firearms” sign it’s legal to walk right in and drink away. And Iowa consistently ranks in the top 5 states with the lowest murder rate.

    Iowa can’t be the only one, maybe John Lott could do a study on that, so the liberal media could ignore it.

    • Harrumph!

      In AZ you can carry in a bar but no-no on the drinking. That’s why I always drink at home. I have the best drunken conversations with myself.

      • At some point either I got old or bars started charging a lot more for beer, so I do most of my drinking at home as well.

        • Beer is currency. $15 for 20 bottles at the local grocery store is more attractive than $15 for three in the bar.

        • I started brewing my own about 15 years ago. Best beer I’ve ever tasted and it only costs $6 or $7 dollars a case. Unfortunately when I get busy I have to resort to Busch light – if you’re going to drink crappy beer it should at least be cheap crappy beer.

    • This kind of makes me proud to be a natural-born Iowanian, albeit we moved to Minnesota when I was so young I don’t even remember it.

      • Iowa also honors any permit from any other state, a privilege (right) not granted to Iowans in Minnesota. Had to stop in Clear Lake last week and box the EDC up for the weekend. Still the invitation is open for anyone wanting to CC at the bar.

  15. For bars you point out that not every one in a bar drinks. You have people like your DD’s and others that just don’t drink that just want to hang out with friends. Also depending on the situation “Bar” is often used by anti’s to purposely try to mislead the public that you are trying to allow CC in bars specifically while in reality you are trying to allow CC into places like restaurants that may also serve alcohol. In some places it is illegal to CC in any place that serves alcohol. Other places it is any place that percentage of their profits come from alcohol.

  16. A large number of the gun banners don’t think people should be carry weapons anywhere nor should they defend themselves. This venues are just an excuse to exclude as many places as possible to make it a PITA to carry. You end up with your carry piece locked in the vehicle when enough of these places pop up with the force of law.

  17. Carry in bars is legal in Tennessee provided the business is not posted and the person carrying is not drinking.

    Blood isnt flowing in the bars or streets here. I say thats a good enough argument. Well except gang related violence but that doesnt fit the adgenda.

  18. Totally beside the point, but I had to go back and check that clip again. I notice he has cartridges on his belt–but his pistol is a Colt muzzleloader.

  19. I don’t go to bars, but I do go to concerts. One night I was walking through downtown after dark to hit a historic location for a concert when I encountered a sign saying “no” to guns. I walked right in, enjoyed the concert, and went home…all while unobtrusively carrying. I wasn’t about to A) not see a concert I paid money to see for which I could get no refund, B) walk the mile back to my car to deposit the firearm and walk right back, and C) walk back to my car around midnight through downtown unarmed.

    Another issue: the whole “I’ll take my business elsewhere” is all well and good when there is an alternative. When there is not, I take small comfort in the fact that my state’s laws stipulate that such signs do not carry power of law for instructor certified permit holders (which I went through the expense and trouble to obtain). But it is certainly galling to feel so unwanted and to know that I don’t necessarily have that right anywhere else.

    • I hunt deer with a bolt action rifle and geese with pump action shotgun. I don’t see a need for CCW, semi-auto handguns and modern sporting rifles. Ah… I can make a similar argument. It’s interesting that when an issue only applies to others how insensitive and apathetic we become.

  20. GFZ’s are psycho killer magnets. And that is bad. Don’t create more psychological killer magnet locations.

  21. Arguments are threefold:
    (1) Look at the ACTUAL HISTORY of states that do not criminalize concealed carry in bars and sports arenas. You will be hard pressed to find a single instance of a concealed carry licensee shooting their firearm irresponsibly or illegally.
    (2) If bars and sports arenas are so safe that no one will ever need a firearm for personal protection, then armed patrons will never draw nor shoot their guns and there is no “safety” problem.
    (3) It is irrational when fellow patrons would trust a concealed carry licensee to leave their gun in their car but would not trust them to not shoot up the bar or stadium.

    It is really quite simple. Besides, the greatest danger is actually walking to and from your transportation to the bar or sports arena. That is where an armed person would most likely use their firearm which means the people inside the establishment will continue to be as “safe” as they are now.

  22. I don’t drink often. But when I do… I would be of little use to anyone. But Americans shouldn’t be punished for my short comings.

  23. I find it funny that at Bryant-Denny, they outlaw pretty much any and all beverages being carried into the stadium, yet one of the biggest sellers in local convenience stores are…alcohol flasks to sneak booze into the stadium.
    So barring a person who is carrying concealed is quite ridiculous. Besides, if the stadium is supposedly “Sober City”, then a person legally carrying should be able to walk right in without hassle.
    Bryant-Dennny is on the UA campus and is a rather safe area so one could argue why carry in there. fine. But at Major league arenas that are in notoriously dangerous areas with consistent statistics proving their lack of security, I argue why a sane person wouldn’t carry in those places. sure there is alcohol and a$$hats aplenty, but a responsible gun owner knows how much a threat a drunk fan presents as opposed to a knife or gun wielding attacker who wants cash or worse.
    Auburn University at their home games instituted a system that allows attendees to text security for immediate help if they witness a crime or feel threatened by a fan’s behavior. I applaud that and wish more arenas would follow their example.

  24. The problem with carrying while intoxicated (which I personally think is BS, I’ve been intoxicated yet paused before doing something potentially stupid as I maintain some rational thought) is that in most cases where it’s defined, it’s very vague.

    Furthermore, someone who would register as “intoxicated” under state laws, such as with a breathalyzer, may or may not be actually impaired.

  25. Majority of the people out there can’t handle alchogol, imagine if you give them a firearm. I was at my buddie’s party last weekend, some trailer trash showed up really wasted showing off his Berreta PX4 storm .40 which he ended up discharging in the air luckly CSPD didn’t show up, because residents are immune to gun shots in the mid westside ghetto of Colorado Springs. Guns in the hands of dumb a** drunks is no go, its how people get injured or killed.

    • Let me rephrase what you just said, and I’ll correct your grammar and spelling:

      Majority of the people out there can’t handle LIFE. Imagine if you give them a firearm. I was at my buddy’s party last weekend. Some trailer trash showed up really DEPRESSED showing off his Berretta PX4 storm .40, which he ended up discharging in the air. Luckily CSPD didn’t show up, because residents are immune to gun shots in the middle, west side ghetto of Colorado Springs. Guns in the hands of dumbass individuals is no go, it’s how people get injured or killed.

      Isn’t this the same argument that gun control advocates will use against you? I’m not saying the reckless person you describe should own a firearm. But, this is certainly no indication or representation of the population of CCW permit holders. It’s already illegal in CO to carry a firearm under the influence. I doubt restricting CCW permit holders from carrying in bars would have prevented this incident.

  26. I don’t drink… Ever. Not even a sip on New Year’s Eve. It’s not a religious thing just a personal choice. I still like to go out with my friends though, and most of them do drink. As a result I am often the designated driver when we go to bars and other places that serve alcohol. In my case banning people who are legally carrying a gun from going to places that serve alcohol wouldn’t prevent someone who is carrying a gun from getting drunk, but it would increase the chances that there would be more drunk drivers on the roads. I can see the reason why people would want to ban people with guns from going to bars but it makes no sense when it is applied to me. I’m generally not in favor of any new gun laws but I would be less opposed to one that stated that if you carry at a place that serves alcohol then you cannot drink to the point where your blood alcohol level would be too high to legally drive.

  27. I suppose I do. Never knew places denied carrying in bars until I saw one of those “legalizing guns in bars” stories in the news a couple of years ago. No such denial here. Not that I ever go into bars.

    I never go to sports arenas either. Went once to an MLB game in my teens. Any fun I may have had was negated by the people and traffic and lines. I cant for the life of me understand the appeal.

    But sure, carry there. Carry everywhere. I dont understand rights-free zones. Like setting up little North Koreas everywhere.

  28. Virginia allows carry in bars already, no argument needed. I just don’t touch a drop of hooch if I’m packing.And frankly it pisses me off when I see people that do.

  29. Respectfully, I think the rationale for the bars and stadiums restriction (which restricts permit holder here in FL as well) is not purely based on alcohol, rather, that for whatever reason, fisticuffs tend to occur in these environments. In Florida, the ban is against carrying at “[a]ny school, college, or professional athletic event not related to firearms,” and this would seem to include off-campus events, or even professional events where, for whatever reason, alcohol may not even be offered.

    Note that I use the term “fisticuffs” to imply the Hollywood notion of a brawl that only results in bumps in bruises. How many Hollywood westerns showed men striking each other, breaking tables and chairs over each other, indeed even bottles…yet everyone walked away with nothing more than a bruised pride? Reality?

    This is, apparently, the mentality and lens through which many viewed the Zimmerman/Martin altercation, i.e. “boys will be boys” and that Zimmerman overreacted. So, the thinking goes, keep guns out of stadiums and bars so that an old-fashioned bar brawl does not escalate. However, modern realities, and indeed modern medicine is teaching us that just as Hollywood depiction of guns is fantasy, so is its portrayal of harmless fisticuffs and bar brawls. Today’s bar fights end in permanent brain damage and frequently death. (I am no historian of the old west, but I seriously doubt that a brawl in an old west tavern was the mere “roughhousing” Hollywood portrays it as.) Until the public is properly educated to view any fight as serious, there will be resistance to understanding the “need” to be armed in places where fights tend to break out.

    The same way the NFL Player’s Union is pushing the concussion issue to change the players’, fans’ and youth players’ understandings of concussions in the sport, the gun rights community should push to quash the Hollywood notion of a “harmless brawl” as the norm.

    Now as a completely unrelated suggestion, how about a compromise where concealed permit holders are seated in a “separate but equal” section of the stadium? I for one would prefer to be surrounded by like-minded permit holders, SO LONG AS THEY ARE NOT JETS OR PATRIOTS FANS! GO FINS!

  30. I’d argue that at a minimum we should think of it in the same way we think of drunk driving. To start with, the problem statement is alcohol inhibits the ability to use a powerful and potentially dangerous tool safely.

    So for cars we don’t make it that you can’t drive to a bar, posses your keys in the bar, etc… Similarly for guns it’s insane to prohibit possession due to simply being in a bar. If for nothing else than the designated driver to also be the designated concealed carrier.

    Addressing the next step, for cars we specifically target the dangerous behavior of driving while intoxicated. In terms of guns, this would mean no shooting or even handling while intoxicated. In short, if one were to be blowing over the legal limit, the same as your car keys need to not go finding their way into the car’s ignition, a holstered gun would need to remain holstered.

  31. Not in bars. Drunk 21 year old gang bangers giving mean mugs to each other from across the nightclub. No effing way.

  32. It isn’t illegal to carry concealed in bars in all 50 states…

    I CC’d (legally) in bars for over two years with no problems.

    That said, everyone should know their own limits. And that also said, I’m not sure I would ever carry concealed in a bar again even if it were legal.

    The reason: In today’s political environment, if you ever have to use deadly force to defend yourself, you’d better be squeaky clean.

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