Cop duty belt stuff, with Glock G22 (courtesy forums.officer.com)

“Over the next year, the police department in South Dakota’s largest city will be going from .40-caliber Glocks to 9 mm pistols,” ksfy.com reports. “[Sioux Falls] Chief Doug Barthel said the pistols have better accuracy and the ability to carry two more bullets than the Glocks.” Well, almost. More police are more accurate with less recoil shooting a nine than a for-tay. Otherwise, a Glock is a Glock is a Glock. Especially at bad breath distances. As for the round count, what’s two bullets between friends? Not to go all Leghornian, but I reckon the key variable for .40 accuracy is hand size. FWIW, the SFPD told TTAG that the department doesn’t have a minimum height requirement. Twenty-five of Sioux Falls PD’s 230 sworn officers are women. For comparison, Sioux City (not Falls) has 124 sworn officers, all of whom can choose their own carry firearm and caliber. Which is just as it should be, really.

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98 Responses to Sioux Falls PD Falls Out of Love with .40 Cal

  1. You can find their old duty weapons (exc-like new Glock 22s) at the local South Dakota Cabelas stores. They were $359 on sale with 3 mags right before the panic.

    • Forgot to add they have factory night sights and have a “2” prefix suggesting a couple trips back to the factory. When I called Glock they dated them to Sept 2006.

    • Wonder if any have the new Gen 4 which have the duel recoil springs which reduce recoil by over 10% and increase gun life (not really a problem with a Glock anyway, but the snap was shaking lights attached to the gun)?

  2. Good on Sioux Falls PD.
    I may be picking up one of those ex-police issue Glocks sometime soon.I’m not a fan of Glock and am even less of a fan of .40,but I must grudgingly concede that during the darkest days of the 2012/13 Gun Panic literally the only round on the shelf was .40.

    • I kept my SIG P229 in .40 for that reason. I don’t mind the snap, but the last thing I need is yet another caliber in the house. But with 9mm still scarce, I’m hanging onto it.

      • Reload. I’ve found a happy place with my 40 and some Win 231 with 170gr lead SWC’s. Soft and accurate and great for a full day at the range.

    • Finding 40 on the shelf must be an area specific thing. In northern Utah you could find 38spl but nothing that ran in a semi.

      • Really? I regularly get .45 and .380 at Gunnie’s in Orem, and Discount Gun and Ammo (actually a misnomer as they’re usually 10% more expensive than Gunnie’s) almost always has ammo in varying flavors.

        A couple of weeks ago I even got 2 boxes of Tulammo in .45 from Wal-Mart. Or are you talking Ogden area?

      • Word. Conversion barrel, heavyweight recoil spring / guide, lighter bullet weight, etc. The Glock is to pistols as the AR is to rifles – modular, easy to mount a light, easy to swap calibers, switchable barrels and mags, etc.

  3. The article says they are replacing 1st generation glocks. I can’t tell if they are staying with the glock make but choosing simply a smaller caliber (Which would be the cheapest move for the department. Holsters and mag carrier can be reused) or going to a different “9mm gun.”

    If you miss a lot, two extra rounds might help, or not.

  4. The 9 also has the benefit of being cheaper than 40 so you can afford more ammo at the range. Pick up some decent +P ammo and there’s not much difference between the 2 anyway.

    Interesting sidebar, I had thought Sioux City was actually bigger than Sioux Falls and it seemed odd that SF would have so much larger police force. It was, in 1980, now SF is nearly twice as large. The 2 are 85 miles apart, so what’s the difference? Could be that there’s no income or corporate tax in SD while Iowa has the highest corporate tax in the country. Gateway moved across the river, I’m guessing they weren’t the only ones.

      • Now that I think about it, I knew several credit card banks set up shop in Sioux Falls, but still, something made them go there instead of Sioux City. Iowa has a 12% top corporate rate (on top of the 35% federal tax) compared to 0% in South Dakota. Where would you set up shop?

        I live in Iowa and the new/old Republican Gov. promised to cut it in half, but the state senate is still held by the Dems. And with $7/bushel corn, the state’s doing just fine anyway. It’s kind of hard to pick up a couple square miles of land and move it to a lower tax state.

        • Where would I set up shop?

          In the state that enticed me to set up shop there by repealing its usury laws.

  5. Wow, look at that utility belt. Must weigh a ton. And are those condoms below the gloves? I guess cops really are prepared for everything.

    [yes, I do realize those are probably not rubbers]

    • Between the bat belt and the vest, mine came in at 21 pounds. Not anywhere near what our troops carry in the sand box.
      It took two months for the hip bruises to go away after I retired.

      • Suspenders help a bit, I think.

        Also, I’m not sure what department you were in, but in Portland, most of the officers now have the pseudo-looking tactical vest. Honestly, it looks like it’s much more useful and less strenuous.

  6. I’ve been to Sioux falls. Nice place. Cops should definitely carry what they feel they are most comfortable with – accuracy and power in mind. (I would choose accuracy over power) any day.

  7. WooHoo! Home town mention!
    Sioux City is about 85,000 but the three cities (Sioux City, South Sioux City and North Sioux City/Dakota Dunes) make it seem bigger. I think it is because we are pretty spread out between the three states. With the surrounding area included we are about 160,000. Sioux Falls is about 230,000

  8. Copy nazi here: “Twenty-five of Sioux City PD’s 230 sworn officers are women. For comparison, Sioux City (not Falls) has 124 sworn officers…” Should that first “City” read “Falls”?

  9. I’ll admit, perhaps I have become an old man, but I don’t get .40. To me it takes all the disadvantages of 9mm and combines them with all the disadvatages of .45 ACP. I know the history, Miami Shootout, 10mm too much recoil, yada, yada, but it still doesn’t make sense to me. I’m a .45 ACP guy (like Jeff Cooper says, on a good day, under the right conditions, a 9mm hollowpoint might expand to .50, but a .45 will never shrink to 9mm), but I’ve never felt under gunned carrying a Berrata M9 in combat either (perhaps because I also carried an M16A2 or M4).

    Not sure how many agencies let cops choose their own firearms anymore. Back when I was a reserve deputy on a fairly large Sherrif’s Department the county made you buy your own pistol. I carried a Para Ord 14.45 with two spare magazines, cocked and locked. Used to drive the Sherrif nuts every time he saw me, he was convinced that cocked and locked was unsafe. My full time deputy parnter once managed to shoot himself in the calf with his Ruger P85 that he claimed was in his holster as we were chasing a “yoot” through some backyards on foot.

    • Modern hollow points can expand to twice in size. I’ve got a table downloaded from Speer with their ballistic gel tests. Their 124gr. +P 9mm round expanded to .720″ in bare gelatin with 11.78″ if penetration from a Glock 17 (.600″ and 14.13″ through heavy clothing). The only .40 load that expanded to a larger diameter is the 155gr. and not by much. The .45 230gr. expanded to about the same size as the 9mm but penetrated an inch deeper while the 185gr. and 200gr. +P expanded a bit more but penetrated less.

      • The key words their are bare gelatin. When shooting a naked guy the hollow point will always expand. Here in Texas odds are the bad guy is wearing a t-shirt, so I’m still pretty confident about expansion. In Frostbite Falls the bad guy may be wearing a ski parka over a sweater, two sweat shirts and long underwear. That’s a lot of stuff to plug the hollow point and stop expansion. I know that the Hornady Critical Duty/Critical Defense ammo is supposed to expand under all circumstances and some others make that promise as well. But I do know that under the worst of circumstances my .45 ACP will always expand to at least .45″.

        • That’s why I included the heavy clothing for the 9mm+P which still expanded to .6″. The bottom line is it takes energy to make a hollow point expand and push it through a body and there are some awfully light 9mm and .45 loads out there. A good 9mm+P with 450lb/ft of energy is likely to outperform a .45 with 350lb/ft. I never hear anyone complain about the stopping power of a .357 magnum. Now military issue FMJ is another story.

          I chose 9mm because it’s cheaper to shoot and I can afford to practice more. I don’t have anything against the other calibers, I just think the 3 are a lot closer than the point 4 guys would have you believe.

    • Glass is half empty, I see.

      Not that I disagree, but right now .40 S&W is used by a majority of state troopers, state police, and a large number of federal agencies. The biggest non-user of .40 is the DoD, which of course uses 9mm and .45 in some units.

      Ballistic aftermath of 9/40/45 shootings are more or less negligable. However, in a TEOTWAKI/WROL scenario, .40 might be easier to come by than 9 or 45. Hopefully, this never develops any further than thought experiment response to the “what if”.

      • I disagree 9 mm will probably easiest to come across,due to there are more 9’s out there in civilian hands,plus if it comes down to it the military carries 9mm.Down in my area,Mississippi, the only ammo left on the shelf most of the time,as far as handgun ammo,is the .40 stuff.That means to me that there are not as many .40’s out there,the most sought after ammo is the 9mm.Be prepared and ready.Keep your powder dry.

    • I never “got” the .40 either. I “got” the 10mm; no question that a 10mm, loaded to potential, is a huge step up from anything else out there for a semi-auto at that time.

      But the .40? Never understood the attraction. It’s sort of a “neither fish, no fowl” sort of thing.

      • The reason for the .40 SW was to make a smaller 10mm round for LEA to to use in a 9mm framed handgun. IE you notice the difference in grip and size of a Glock 22 vs a Glock 20. 10mm is a awesome round but very BIG and this came to be in the PC days of the early 1990s so women have to like the gun for the department and so 10mm made wimpy women cry over recoil and size. SO we made .40 SW as a stop gap. The over pressure of .40 is clear Washington CO Sheriff in Oregon sued plainly .40 and .45 Glocks but they retired the .40 and went to 9mm because of women and worn out G22s. Time for America to tell women to wake up make them stand high calibers or all cops and solders soon under Obama will use .22lr for women, lol.

      • One thing I don’t get is .357 autos. It seems to me the 10mm fills that role about perfect.

    • That is true about the 45. personally, for a handgun, i believe 45 and 9mm are both good choices. Given that the differences between the two, even considering expansion, is minimal, about the width of two fingernails, I wouldnt get too bent out of shape over having either.

    • 3 shifts, off days… Probably means about 30 on duty at any given time? Doesn’t seem that outrageous to me.

      • They must be doing something right. Great town, very low crime. One of the only Cities of over 100,000 in the US I would ever live in. Biggest risk is from the wild weather.

    • Sioux City has about 87,000 denizens, 124 cops. The ratio seems about right. My township has 57,000 residents and employees 139 LEO’s. And what’s even better, they don’t spend their time writing bogus tickets. The price seems high until you look at the peace-of-mind that very low crime brings, lack of physical injury, no shootings by perps. Of course, laugh, bordering a high-crime big city might have something to do with it. The PD is sticking with .40 cal Glocks.

  10. Re the issue of hand size: IIRC, the FBI originally ordered a 10mm handgun design, but the women couldn’t handle it [and threatened to file suit]. So they modified the design to the .40, about the same size, but not as hot. Now, even that is too big. Stick around, there will be a demand for the renowned .9mm

    • I thought I would find a post about the “grip size” comment.

      I don’t have the two on hand to examine both, but it was my understanding that the G17/G22 were the same dimensions (along with all the other full size glocks, except the 20/21 in .45/10mm)

      The grip size does not change between 9mm and .40S&W. Exact same.

    • That’s just it, the PD doesn’t want to pay for them to get enough practice in, so they downgrade to something more “manageable”, which has more to do with finances than recoil. They’d go to .22s but they know they’d be laughed off the beat. 9mm is considered the smallest effective round.

    • Thats not the case.

      why deal with the increased recoil and muzzle flash of a 40 for a 50-100 ft lb increase in kinetic energy?

      It makes zero sense.

      Anybody well trained that can be accurate with a 40 can be more accurate with a 9mm.

  11. If you think load outs that assume 3 mags total and one in the chamber you get.

    G19: 46 rounds
    G23: 40 rounds
    G30: 31 rounds

    Being able to do rapid follow up shots helps a lot.

  12. My sister is a sergeant for a county sheriff in Utah and they are making the switch from .40 to 9mm as well. Some folks were having a hard time qualifying with the .40 cal. She is not too happy about it. She loves her .40 and can out shoot anyone I personally know.

  13. The article mentions the increased recoil of the .40. I own a G19. and have shot the Beretta 92F. Compared to a 92F, the G19 has a ton of recoil. My point… get a metal frame gun. Of course the .40 Glock was going to have more recoil than the 9mm …. duh!

    • I thought the .40 cal recoil from a Sig P229 was much more mild than the 9mm recoil from a 1911 (it was one of those Colt 1911 in 9mm).

      • Love my P229 in .40/.357. My friend let me shoot his (along with several other guns) during my first ever trip to the range back in ’99 – it just felt right to me then and to this day it’s the gun I connect with best.

        I think the P229’s recoil is comparable to my G19 – it’s not difficult to control, especially if you have grip strength befitting a man. If anyone thinks otherwise, perhaps some deadlifts and/or pull-ups are in order.

        • My statement is one of comparison not ability or strength. Compared to the G19 (with which I am quite proficient and comfortable) the 92F is so stable and quiet that my first few shots with it felt like misfires.
          If anyone needs to bolster their argument with a strength pissing contest have at it.

        • Barnslayer: My strength comment wasn’t directed at you. It was nothing more than a tongue-in-cheek poke at people who complain about the “snappyness” of the .40. I was just trying to point out that recoil is all relative and context (ie frame material) is important.

  14. Do you think they will be smart enough to just purchase 9mm barrels, recoil springs, and magazines so they can keep their existing hardware and save a lot of cash?

    • Doesn’t work. Case rim is a different size, and thus the breech face and extractor are in different alignments.

  15. The Glock 25 in .380 would fit even the most feminine of hands and be much safer for bystanders and perpetrators alike.

    • Blanks have even less recoil, and less collateral damage. They should just issue starter pistols.

    • Ralph,

      You once made a comment that you keep an ax near your bed as an added self-defense tool. What make and model is it? I’ve been researching tomahawks lately. They are really interesting in their various capabilities from chopping and slicing to self-defense.

  16. Sooooooo???? Now that they state 9mm pistols not just 9mm Glocks that means others may carry Beretta 92FS. So they are accurate reliable and with a 147gr bullet a 9mm can do anything a 135gr .40 round can do, hint only 180 gr loads in .40 show anything real over 9mm.The 9x19mm round is a good round and most of its bad rap came from mostly ill trained kaliforian PDs or from overseas with crappy military FMJ which is 124gr and too light. Im glad to see officer have a none Glock choice every man should use a weapon he comfortable and likes as long it uses department ammo. More Beretta 92FSs in Idaho yeah!!

    • They’re buying new Glocks.

      The version of that report that aired on KSFY reports, “the department’s is swapping out its 40-caliber Glocks for a slightly smaller 9 mm version.”

      • Not really, it states there going to 9mm pistols one said some may go to a smaller 9mm version (G17/G19), but it does NOT state it be Glocks only. But most just say going to 9mm pistols so a Beretta 92FS and a Springfield XD would be permitted for use by officers then.

      • I’m pretty sure “version” refers to the manufacturer, not the caliber. Just as I’m pretty sure the Sioux Falls Police department is buying new Glocks at a rate of 250 a year at $409 each.

        I don’t know what the Sioux Falls Police Department allows, but in the almost 8 years I’ve lived here, I’ve never seen a uniformed officer who wasn’t carrying a Glock.

        • You might just love Glocks to death BUT it says pistols not just Glocks so XDs M-92FSs and Rugers may now be used. Remember they are ditching department only G22s in favor of 9mm pistol not just 9mm Glocks.

      • I don’t have an opinion about Glocks one way or another Lance. Nor do I have one about any other handgun for that matter. Or about which which handgun of which caliber is best, or about whether police officers should or should not be allowed to choose their own sidearm. And while your preference for something other than a Glock is leading you to make unwarranted infereces, I’m just pointing out, as a simple factual matter, that the Sioux Falls Police Department currently issues Glocks and will continue to issue Glocks.

        “The two guns are similar in size and built the same way, and officers shouldn’t have much of a transition, according to the chief.

        “‘The nice thing about it is the guns are virtually the same,’ he said. ‘We won’t need new holsters. We don’t need to relearn how to dismantle the gun. We will be cleaning the same gun, other than the caliber difference’. [emphasis added]”

        Again, I don’t know if Sioux Falls now allows or will in the future allow its officers to carry anything besides Glocks, but the only thing they’re buying to replace their .40 cal. Glocks with is 9mm ones.

        • Hay now your bending the facts it says 9mm pistols not all Glocks your taking this too seriously your being nuts. Nice try.

        • Read the linked articles, or don’t, Lance. My only interest was in correcting your original assertion. If you think the cops in my city should be carrying something else, that’s fine by me. I don’t know enough to have an opinion one way or another. I was just trying to inform you, to the best of my knowledge based on what I see on my TV while reading my morning paper, that they’ll still be carrying Glocks. For good or ill, as the case may be.

          I probably should have led my initial reply to your comment with, “Sorry to disappoint you,” or some other qualifier.

          I’ll go back to occassionaly lurking now.

        • Your the one who seems to be all nuts over this all the news I read reads generic 9mm pistols not just Glock. Your going NUTS over this big thing is drop it. You say you dont care but you seem to be distorting this all around. It says 9mm not a G17 only so just take a chill pill and stop being the troll that makes sites so bad.

    • Im with you lance

      I like Berettas. I don’t agree with their safeties, but their accuracy and reliability are undeniable.

      • Amen, though I despise the city and its leadership in both civil and LEA. The reason LAPD and LASD still use Beretta 92s is because of just that.

      • A Google search for “135 gr .40” turned up many examples, including Winchester Ranger, Federal HST (I believe formerly used by Border Patrol in that weight) and Guard Dog, Double Tap, and Corbon. I have more than a few boxes of the Federal 135 gr .40 in my ammo locker; good stuff.

    • The Corbon 135gr .40 generates near 550 foot pounds of energy (not far off 357magnum level). 147gr 9mm is a lady compared to it. I like the mid-weights (150-165 grains).

      • If you go with HOT loads than yes but most PDs use standard loads and only use special HP bullets for there weapons. But loads are normal or low for women shooters.

  17. I would disagree with the author and say that the key variable for accuracy in virtually anything that could reasonably be called a modern duty pistol is practice. Changing sights, ammo and/or guns will not likely yield much of a result across 100+ users. It’s precisely the same fallacy we attempt to dispel with non-police shooters; it’s not the gun-it’s the shooter.
    That aside, I advocate carrying the more powerful of the ‘big three’ (9mm, .40,.45) that one is comfortable with.

    As for the comments regarding the .40 as combining the worst aspects of the 9 and 45, I’m of the exact opposite opinion. In the capacity/power/controllability nexus the .40 nicely straddles the advantages of the 9 and 45 while mitigating the drawbacks of each.

    In the final analysis however it really shouldn’t matter much at all. Everyone fit for police duty can learn to shoot the .45 accurately and with plenty of control while at the same time the 9mm is sufficiently lethal to resolve any reasonably conceivable use the police may have (if not it’s a rifle that is needed, not a more powerful handgun). What’s missing from (and I don’t think I’m out very far on a limb here) virtually every department that is vacillating from 9 to 40 and back again, from Glock to whatever and back or whatever is that they don’t train their officers to shoot well. Given a legitimate trainer, a course of fire, any duty pistol, necessary ammo and a good course of fire and 90+% of any force will be more than proficient inside of 2 weeks. Fail to train, enough, or correctly and most will not shoot well no matter what they carry. It’s the same old story from here to eternity.

  18. If they can get better hits, great. There isn’t that much difference bet 9mm and .40 performance these days. Hits are all that matters.

  19. If it is like some departments that are having shrinking budgets,it is less expensive to shoot 9mm,plus with the bonded type ammo,the 9mm is not all that shabby.Never have liked the .40 don’t have one ,probably won’t get one,have the 9mm,and the .45 acp.Don’t see in the real world where a .40 is really any better,plus the ,45 has a lot more previous history as a fight stopping cartridge.The .40 was brought about because the wimps at the FBI couldn’t handle a full size ,”10mm”,fight stopper .Plus the fact that they couldn’t admit that their tactics in the Miami shooting in the 1980’s,was to blame for the agents that were killed,not a firearm cartridge.There is no magic bullet to stop someone but I would still stake my bacon on a 9mm or a .45 acp.Be prepared and ready.Keep your powder dry.

    • Plus don’t like striker fired handguns,like to have an exposed hammer.Was once told by a law enforcement buddy that Glocks are disposable guns for disposable troops,makes you wanta say HMMM.So a Beretta or a SIG is the way to go.Be prepared and ready.Keep your powder dry.

    • Its not a matter of being wimpy.

      Some people just are born with smaller and/or less strong hands.

      To set aside those considerations just to have a bigger caliber (when integrating long guns is a far more sensible solution) is asinine. Bigger is irrelevant if you cannot control it

  20. Is a few extra Joules of energy and one millimeter extra diameter worth the reduced magazine capacity, extra cost and greater risk of kabooms?

    Here in Canada, most of the city police forces use .40s, but the Mounties, CBSA and Toronto Police use nines. All cash in transit companies use forties.

  21. “Well, almost. More police are more accurate with less recoil shooting a nine than a for-tay”

    Well almost nothing.

    They are more accurate because the more mild recoil of the 40 makes it more controllable during rapid fire, which can increase accuracy, all variables between differing operators considered.

    Its a matter of physics. End of story.

  22. Sioux City, it possibly should be pointed out, is in Iowa, not South Dakota. Just sayin’.

    And hey! I have that knife. That Benchmade whatzit. It just went out of rotation as my large carry knife. I appear to have lost my small carry knife, a SOG Twitch II. Which was a found knife, but I miss it all the same.

  23. Man it’d be awesome to be able to choose your duty firearm and caliber. I’d be rocking a .357 revolver, and screw all the people who would mock me for not having a 17 round 9mm Glock or some such.

    Revolvers 4 Lyfe!

  24. Agreed that police should be able to carry whichever (reasonable) caliber they feel comfortable with. There should be a list of sidearms so they have a choice there, too. The reasons of having a standard caliber in policework are not realistic. I have never seen a situation in normal patrol work where one officer ran out of ammunition and had to grab someone else’s ammo… there’s no time. Just doesn’t happen.

  25. If you are going to use something besides 9mm for “stopping power” in a semiauto duty/carry weapon and you aren’t going for .357 SIG you are doing it wrong period the end of discussion.

  26. I carry a 475 linebaugh and a 10 gauge. I worship the devil in my spare time, and hate fat women and electric cars.

  27. 40 S&W in a first generation ??? – I wasn’t aware that such a pistol ever existed. I seem to recall the transition to Gen 2 frames in the very late ’80’s. The first 40’s didn’t appear on the market until 1990. Someone correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought they were all second generation frames.

  28. The good thing about a standard firearm is interchangeability (interchanegeableness?) If everyone has the same gun, they can stock ammo for emergencies, and common replacement parts. If they have a mishmash, that becomes much harder.

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