Yorktown (courtesy history.com)

I was sailing with an ex-military amigo in Providence the other night (three sheets to the wind), making our mark on a bottle of Maker’s Mark. We discussed the need for Americans to exercise their natural, civil and Constitutionally protected right to keep and bear arms in the face of possible tyranny. “Possible?” he guffawed. “Have you been asleep for the last five years?” I did the true dat thing and laid out some scenarios whereupon U.S. citizens could enter into something not a million miles away from armed revolution against their own government. “The Revolution has already started,” ex-mil man asserted. “You’re already seeing people chafing under the yoke of oppression—and fighting back.” At least that’s what I thought he said. (He might have been saying something about strafing nearby babes with jokes about depression.) Is he right? If the longest journey starts with a single step, haven’t Americans already taken that step by arming themselves to the teeth and buying every bullet made? If so, how far along the path are we? Is there any going back?

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233 Responses to Question of the Day: Has Revolution 2.0 Already Started?

  1. I’m terrified that he might very well be right. To tell the truth it’s keeps me up at night.

    • My friend then seek strength in the Great I AM.

      “As I walk through the Valley of the Shadow of Death, I shall have no Fear, for he [I AM] is with me.

      If you do not read scripture I recomend you start here.

      http://www.navpress.com/landing/bibles.aspx

      I can give no greater gift, know no greater joy, do no better deed than to lead but one to his own calling.

      Read, and when you open it read romans 8:35-38

    • TO: gloomhound
      RE: Fear Not

      I’m terrified that he might very well be right. — gloomhound

      Gtfoxy is right.

      To tell the truth it’s keeps me up at night. — gloomhound

      Try homeopathic ignatia for the anxiety attacks. You can get it at any good vitamin store or such places as Whole Foods.

      After all….

      God made the Earth and everything therein for Man.

      Our problem has been trying to figure out how to use it all….properly.

      Regards,

      Chuck(le)
      [Perfect love casts you fear.]

      • “Try homeopathic ignatia for the anxiety attacks. You can get it at any good vitamin store or such places as Whole Foods.”

        Or you could just drink water, since that’s exactly what you’d be buying. Homeopathy is unsupported by science, period. Any positive effects can only be attributed to the placebo effect, and some results may in fact be harmful.

        • There are aspects of homeopathy that may indeed work, but they have been discovered by accident, over the ages, by trial and error, and nobody knows why they work. Most of it is indeed mumbo jumbo, but there are slivers of effectiveness that is not understood.

        • Nobody knows how the placebo effect works, but it does work – that’s why the science community insists on double-blind tests.

  2. You just need to take a look around and you’ll see the wheels of dissent have been spinning for quite some time.

    The American populace is awake. Edward Snowden really helped that. People are mighty pissed that he’s being treated as a spy and being charged with espionage when Obama said whistlerblowers would be protected.

    But let’s be honest, who expected him to tell the truth?

    • I really think about 20-25% of the populace is truly “awake”; another 5% is gradually awakening. While much remains to be done, this is a larger sector of the American public that’s been awake since @1970.

      And I believe a LOT of developments have begun to that end. A LOT more than any of us currently realize.

      • My views of how many people are awake may be a bit skewed since I don’t keep company with many sheep, but a variation of 20-30% of the American people knowing what’s going on is plenty to spread the word around.

        It’s only a matter of time, especially since the advent of the internet, we can alert an exponential amount more to the trampling of our Rights.

        That’s why ACTA and CIPSA were proposed, the internet is a WMD. Knowledge is power, and that makes them afraid.

    • That’s because Snowden is not a whistleblower. Whistleblower protection does not extend to intelligence agencies, and you cannot be a Whistleblower if the activity you report is not illegal. Unfortunately, under current laws, the NSA’s activities are legal. That may change, but since Snowden was an employee of an intelligence agency with a Top Secret clearance, and the activities he leaked weren’t illegal, he does not get Whistleblower protection.

      Espionage is a pretty steep charge though.He should be charged for breaking the law by violating his security clearance, and be done with it. Espionage suggests his intent was to harm his country at the expense of another. (IE – Manning) Snowden did what he did for America. He should be held to the same letter of the law others with Security Clearances are, but to call him a traitor and a spy? Ridiculous.

      • The Constitution is the highest law of the land. The 4th is direct conflict with the actions of the NSA with regards to American Citizens. When it comes to foreign entities.. that’s a whole other matter.

        But thank you for showing your “Just following orders” attitude.

        • Actually the Declaration is.

          The Constitution was written to Restrict the Govt.
          The Declaration is all the Authorization and Duty we will ever need.

          Over time our forefathers Knew it would fail and left the One tool we shall need.

          It was written to explain why and prepare for When.

      • The “Whistleblower” fiction is nonsense. Applies to those that I like and no one else.

        Snowden was the employee of a gov’t contractor. Not DOD or Fed employee. The activities he has disclosed come as no surprise to anyone that has been paying attention (or has any imagination) but these activities WERE/ARE illegal and most certainly UN-CONSTITUTIONAL.

        By my estimate it is 1765. The Stamp/Quartering Acts (Obumacare) have been passed and it is time for the Sons of Liberty to get their act organized.

        My concern is the we are facing economic collapse before we reach the point of government/social collapse. Economic collapse would obviously be followed by govt/social. If anyone can offer a construct where our current economic course can sustain it’s self for even the intermediate term detail your thinking. The response by a statist progressive obviously being martial law. Elminates the problem of the 22nd Amendment.

      • And yet the Chinese spy/traitor walked away with 1000’s of secrets from Los Alamos and no one touched him

        • Yet many people including those “of the gun” oppose Full-Automatic guns, hand grenades, and rockets from being as available as 1911s and glocks.

        • ZM 1306 (who would name a child that?), George Washington didn’t. There are low information, gullible types in all segments of society. Just because they are “of the gun” doesn’t mean every reflection about guns they have is correct. Sure access to hand grenades needs to be restricted: from children and the criminally minded, but old George argued that citizens should be armed as good as or better than the standing army. Not everyone can understand that argument. Can you?

    • Snowden was a spy. He probably was recruited directly or indirectly by the SVR or GRU. Why do you think he is in Moscow right now? The Prism leak was probably part of his exfil strategy. Make the spy a hero while discrediting the US government a win for Putin. Looking at the history of wikileaks it, in retrospect, has all the characteristics of a Russian intelligence operation. You have to ask yourself is the United State the only country that has secrets?

    • ….you can see the decay…you can see the build-up of decay and neglect around you…increased litter-filled highways…grasses that are longer than usual…fire-hazard buildings ready to collapse…ghettos that some people cannot go into in Camden, Detroit…parts of Chicago….you can feel the arthritis of the aging baby-boomer curve as it decends into the killing fields of Agenda 21….you can look back and see the pattern of the Bush Plan…the death of JFK…the financial manipluations throughout the last forty years that have made him wealthy…to the point of a King-dom-Like Compound on a mountain in Soth Amercia for the Bush Clan…with all of the digital money production and fake money thats been generated in the last five years…when that bubble collapse….after NAFTA….America is dead….I vote for a mass treason trial fr every polotical leader for the last fifty years… convict and hang them all…turn the terror on them…legally…Hang George Bush and Dick Cheney at the same time….looking at one another…

      Regards,

      RJ OGuillory
      Author-
      Webster Groves-The Life of an Insane Family

    • Whether he was a spy or not, matters not to me – what he is, is a litmus test for measuring the level of tyranny we really have. What I mean is, watch carefully the lengths to which our gov’t goes to get at Snowden; the veracity with which they pursue him will be indicative of how far down the tyranny road we actually are.

      Police States only know how to squeeze tighter. They don’t know how to back off to preserve the illusion of freedom.

    • When (not if) the dollar collapses, and the inflated QE wall street bubble pops, you will see it. Best investments are gold, silver, and copper jacketed lead.

    • “Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.”

      I think things will have to get much worse before people will collectively revolt, if ever.

  3. I think when most people think about tyranny, they imagine some huge event out of a movie, where there are armed soldiers roaming the streets enforcing curfews and beating civilians. You know, like in Egypt. But here in the USA, its more like death by a thousand cuts. The Occupy Wall Street movement was the closest thing we’ve seen recently that expresses some kind of mass outrage. But where has that outrage gone? I agree about the last five years, and the 10 before it.

    When states have legislation that proposes to take our property (i.e., guns) without even considering any kind of compensation (or with), that is an act of tyranny. My non-gun-owning friends don’t seem to get that point. If the gov’t came for their SUVs, then they would get it. And THAT is the problem. “Oh, but that’s just for guns” they say. Property is property. History repeats itself.

    • Occupy Wall Street? Are you kidding me. OWS was nothing more than a Democratic Party astroturfed operation. It had more in common with Black/Brown shirts than with a Democratic movement. OWS is Fascism in action.

      • No. You are looking at specific things, and not the whole. There is some of what you say, but what you say doesn’t describe the entirety of the dissent.

        Well… former dissent. OWS has vanished like morning dew, like a fist when you open your hand. OWS ultimately was too easily discouraged, too unfocused, too homogenous.

        • I am looking at specifics. Why do you think ” …OWS has vanished like morning dew, like a fist when you open your hand…?” It was bought and paid for by the Democratic Party and it no longer fills a need so they turned off the money.

          OWS was place filled with crime, grime and disease. It was a microcosm of a Fascist society.

        • @William Burke (Carmel High?)

          I’m with you @tdiinva.. the same day that OWS started, the communist party USA had their events in NYC. There is no direct admission to any complicity, but I would bet big money that the CPUSA was involved in getting it off the ground.

        • When I read posts like Jus Bill’s I just shake my head. Berkeley was a communist movement and Woodstock was a big stoner party. The very prototypes for OWS and the millennials.

        • Burke: you are aware that OWS just received a multi-million dollar pay-out from California?
          They have not disappeared, the US operation was simply a recruitment and training seminar. The cadre has been active in the ME since the Arab Spring. A few of those bozos have even been arrested and killed 🙁

      • OWS was a grass roots movement that the democrat elites co-opted. It’s the same thing that the republicans did to the Tea Party movement in 2010.

        • Do you have SFBs? Van Jones was the lead for starting OWS. A communist and former Obama White House operative. There was nothing grass roots about OWS. It was from the first second an astroturfed Obama operation. It was his version of the Brown or Black shirts, or the Red Guards. Fascist all the way.

      • No he’s not kidding, he’s right.

        The media machine essentially discredited OWS, but the message still stands. Times were still too good for it to gain considerable momentum.

        Just wait until there is another bubble pop. Personally, Im betting on the derivatives bubble 😀

        • I know we have had our differences but I never figured that you would be so easily duped by Obama’s crew.

          No, the media did not discredit OWS. It was all the deaths, rapes and barbaric behavior that discredited the movement. Like all Fascist movements they eventually discredit themselves by their actions.

        • Obama’s crew? give me a f^cking break.

          Anymore tin foil horse shit to go alongside that? Prove to me that OWS was Obama’s crew and fascists.

          Deaths, rapes, and barbaric behavior. Yet the US military and police forces are not discredited based off of the actions of a few. Youre trying to throw the baby out with the bath water.

        • Van Jones was the primary instigator of OWS movement. Remember him? The entire project was planned and executed by the Democratic Party and White House operatives. It was pure Alinskyism in action.

    • LOL! OWS was bankrolled & planned by Soros groups, Labor Unions & the Communist Party USA and endorsed by the American Nazi Party among others. It wasn’t any type of ‘liberty’ movement, just an attempt of overthrowing a constitutional form of government using ‘useful idiots’ by statists that would enslave us all.

        • Biofire, I feel your pain. In TTAG world, any populist leftist movement is “Commie Facists”, or “Brownshirts.” Right wing populists are, of course, grassroots Patriots and Heros, certainly not co-opted by Dick Armey’s Americans for Prosperity and the Koch brothers. It’s funny, because the Right can find plenty to legitimatley criticize OWS for without resorting to crazy fiction. A lot of good came out of OWS, and a lot of grass-roots activity is ongoing (like citizen aid groups during Hurricane Sandy). Hanging out in parks and getting pounded by the cops is a strategy which has outlasted its usefulness, at least for now. But, you know, “Brownshirts!” Ultimately, for real anti-authoritarian change to happen, Left and Right are going to have to meet for lunch, but sadly, that ain’t gonna happen soon, at least from what I’ve seen around these parts.

        • Wow, the evil Koch brothers. My word. Are you aware that the Kochs fund Libertarian causes? They were opposed to the War on Terror, support drug legalization and gay marriage. I bet you didn’t know that because all you know is what the Daily Kos tells you.

        • Tdiinva, I am well aware of the Koch brothers’ views on civil liberties, and I agree with many of them. However, I disagree with their agenda of gutting any and all environmental regulation and making it nearly impossible for working people to organize unions. Also, I don’t want to abolish Social Security and public education. They are “Free Market” absolutist oil barons. I did not call them “evil,” though I certainly do think they’re dangerous.

          For the record, I seldom read the Daily KOS, though I do very much enjoy the This Modern World cartoon.

          A lot of pro-gun, civil libertarian Lefties are interested in having a conversation about freedom (and the increasing lack thereof) in this country. You, clearly, are not really interested in having a conversation, but go straight into attack mode, implying that I’m stupid and get all my news from one source, though the fact that I’m a regular reader of TTAG should suggest otherwise. Coming up against this attitude so often, being called a “libtard,” a Brownshirt, a Fascist, etc. gets really, really old. If you’re confident in your opinions, you shouldn’t have to belittle those you disagree with. You should be able to engage in a civilized discussion. Hell, you might even change somebody’s mind about something, or find yourself reconsidering some of your own beliefs. That’s what civil discourse is all about.

        • People should have no right to form unions except if they need to protect themselves from an unscrupulous business. Otherwise, unions are just legalized worker cartels.

        • Kyle, it sounds like you’re opposed to people gathering together in groups to advocate for their interests, a basic First Amendmet right. You talk about “unscrupulous businesses,” but the legal obligation of every publicly held corporation is to make the maximum possible profit, while meeting the minimum legal standards for working conditions, environmental impact, etc. Thousands of union members fought and sometimes died for things we take for granted. Maybe you want to go back to child labor, no weekends, no safety rules, and no workers’ comp if you get hurt or killed on the job. If unions break the law, as they sometimes do, they should be prosecuted, as should corporations. But saying that people should not be allowed to form a group to collectively negotiate with an employer, that’s some pretty heavy authoritarian stuff. Why do you hate freedom?

        • NCG is it safe to assume that you are, or closely related to, a union member?

          Unions had a place one upon a time I can give you that. That time has passed.

          There’s a man who gets paid a salary based upon a 40 hr work week.. In reality he is only in the office MAYBE 20 hrs in a week. Most of that time is spent sleeping at his desk. He is a worthless employee and a drain on the company. Why would you keep a man like this? Because he’s union and there’s nothing you can do about his poor work performance.
          This is only one example of millions I’m sure. Unions are the reason things are so expensive when made in America. Unions are the reason this country is loosing large companies to foreign nations.

        • Unions bankrupted Chrysler and GM, and Your Glorious Beloved Infallible Obammessiah dished out billions of our taxpayer dollars to them to buy their votes.

          The unions are resisting right to work tooth and nail. Why is that? Probably because they fear the competition because of the deep down not-good-enough feeling we all have, but most of us outgrow.

      • Yup. OWS crowd were libtard morons. Nobody liked the few banksters who lied and stole, but being so ignorant and against the capitalist system is true libtard (democrat) insanity.

        • The OWS slobs are blind to the fact that the big bad evil banks were doing the bidding of their own lords and masters.

    • The “Occupy” movement were corporate/Dem funded entitlement coprolites. When they came to a place they trashed it, and when they left it was a cesspit. When the Tea Party left a place it was cleaner/nicer than when they came.

      Disclaimer: I am not now, nor have I ever been a member of the Tea Party.

  4. In short yes.

    Civil Wars don’t start when one side fires a gun.They gestate over decades as one side believes their creed is so important that law,order,and justice must be subverted by any means necessary to full fill their goals. The antis perspective is clear-they won’t stop until the entire US from coast to coast is as disarmed and defenseless as New York City. The only thing which will decisively halt their corrosion of America is martial force.

    If you think this is tinfoil ranting,watch a session of Congress when a gun bill is being debated.The divide between Constitutional State Reps. vs Socialist State Reps. are so vast its like two foreign nations.

    • I fear you are correct. No matter what our preferences, we will ultimately have a choice forced upon us: Submit to tyranny or fight. There is no way the Progressives will ever just leave Americans alone. The only hope we have is to vote them all out, starting very soon, and start the long, gradual process of restoring the USA. Watch 2014 and 2016. Coalmine canaries.

      • I agree 100% with everything you wrote except please stop using the term progressive. Its communist. Progressive is the term they put out their to hide their true agenda. When you use it you legitimize the deceit.

  5. It’s been going on for a lot longer than 5 years. The only reason things aren’t worse is because either we’re a very tolerant people, or a very lazy people. I haven’t decided which.

  6. How long untill we as citizens of this great nation “of the people” have had with the government “of the people” forcing what they want down our throats. Look at so many states, countys and municipalities have decided what is best for the people with out talking to the people.

  7. I watched the the highlights of a convention of an org called the Constitutional Sheriffs and Peace Officers Association. I was amazed at the blatantly militant tone these elected officials and keepers of the peace were using. It’s well worth taking the time to watch, as they are well-spoken and educated.
    http://cspoa.org/st-charles-convention-highlights-video-available-online/
    There are many people and organizations, me thinks, that are quite ready to go into action should events become… precipitous.

  8. Just a thought exercise:

    The first step towards any kind or type of revolution is not taken by the oppressed but by the oppressor. The first step is taken when the gov’t starts oppressing the people, against the will of the people.

    So based on that we are on step 2 or 3.

    Step 2 being resistance against that oppression, this does not require any violence or gun shots, the simple fact that people start writing their representatives, protest, fill hearings rooms, making their voices heard. I guess you can add their massive buying spree to that as well. Though I would doubt that a large percentage of the first time AR buyers thought of their purchase as being part of a revolution, nor have any intent to use the merchandise purchased to defend any oppression. But the purchase alone is their contribution to step 2.

    Step 3 you could claim is the public display of ignoring the oppression by trading banned magazines despite the new laws. However I would consider the active action to recall politicians that voted for the oppression as the primary active engagement by the people. I think those actions are the first shot fired, of course a shot that does not include any actual firearms. Actively fighting back.

  9. I go as lazy people, so many people don’t care what happens as long as it doesn’t interrupt there closed life.

  10. Jefferson’s conditions are these:”…but when a long train of abuses and usurpations , pursuing, invariably, the same object, evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism; it is their right, it is their duty to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security.” Declaration of Independence. We aren’t to that point as long as the courts are open and the vote is available IMHO. But stay tuned. Get involved. Teach. Persuade. Open your books and get reacquainted with the Founders! I’d recommend starting with “A Patriot’s History of the United States” by Larry Schweikert. Happy Independence Day all!

      • Please the Voting system is a shambles and a fraud , Obo proves it.
        The Courts are another Joke, OBO care, Ring a bell, DNA swabbing ring a bell.
        Time is up and the Local KGB and Gestapo’s are piling up the Body and Pet count.

        Slavery or WAR are the Only 2 options.

  11. Nope, I don’t see it happening anytime soon. Perhaps another Waco or Ruby Ridge might take place, but full open armed rebellion? I think something huge and radical would have to take place; even if that happens I see something along the lines of another Civil War. Lastly, how many armchair commandos are ready to take arms and put their lives on the line? I deployed to Kosovo and twice to Iraq; I had my youthful adventure and I’m not quick to repeat it.

    To answer RF’s last question; I don’t think people buying up every AR and bullet in sight was the first step to armed revolution. I think people got scared everything was going to be banned and wanted it before they couldn’t have it. That does not equal wanting to be part of an armed revolution. It’s one thing to sit behind the anonymity of a computer and state what you would do if men in black showed up to take your guns; but I think a bigger majority of people would not take violent action.

    • The question is, the next time American citizens are wrongly assaulted by the Federal government like Waco or RR, will fellow citizens come to their aid, or we will tuck tail and complacently watch it unfold before our eyes again?

      Citizens are suffering abuses on a daily basis and we have done a poor job of looking out for each other.

        • Sadly, I have to agree. An AR (still less a bolt-action hunting rifle) is no match for a couple of SWAT teams in armored vans, much less an M1A1 Abrams. It will take something MASSIVE to jolt people out of their apathetic and very materially-comfortable slumber.

          In America, the sheeple principle is too well ingrained. “They’re the government… and to disobey them is to break the law… and the law is sacred….. because the law is written by the people since we are a glorious bastion of democracy…. and besides, Reality TV is so much more interesting and relevant to my life than something potentially dangerous like armed revolution.”

        • They wont if they lost their job, their home, their very livelihood in another bubble collapse.

          “What? cold bear and cable? thats for rich people now.”

          …then heads will roll…

      • “… will fellow citizens come to their aid, or we will tuck tail and complacently watch it unfold before our eyes again?”

        Bill beat me but I was also ganna say switch on Honey Boo Boo or the Kardashians and get lost in their simple mind that cant/wont process what is going on in the REAL world.

    • And I’ll venture (based on my observation) that most of the buyers of AR area new owners. Many are recent Vets.

      They are NOT buying for hunting varmits, for the range, or for home defense.

      The ruling class in DC has not done the math on how many Vets have been fully trained up since 9/11 and have since been discharged. Millions.

        • The government has been keeping track must be you haven’t. They are declaring most if not all returning veterans to be suffering from PTSD. Automatic confiscation and disqualification: vet problem solved; next.

        • MM. the gun does not make the vet. And guns are easy to get. It’s not about the gear, it’s about the man.

        • JWM. Once vets are declared to be unfit to keep and bear arms, the government defines their character. Come time they defy the government and arm themselves they become criminals. Controlling people starts with controlling the narrative and this will be the narrative: see we told you they couldn’t be trusted.

  12. Your friend needs meds for his paranoia and irrational thinking. There will not be any revolution. NY, CT, NJ, and Colorado show us what oppressed people or companies do–they run away or work with the agressors–I.e. Colt, Ruger, S&W. When people are arrested and charged under these laws, they submit and none of their gun friends shoot up the jail to get them out. The Kokesh march went up in smoke faster than one of his doobies. Anyone else who talks of revolution is just blowing smoke.

    • fuck you? I live in NY and 54 counties flung the SAFE act back in Cuomo’s face. I was in Albany twice, on king andy’s door step telling him to stick it. 12,000 were chanting “We will not comply” and you can believe it!

      • I have always found it easier to be brave in a crowd than standing alone. Character is what you do when nobody else is watching.

      • Jim boy I believe you but Until we go arming and a carrying. simply a stall tactic.
        I met one of you guys on LI and by the End of the Day he told me He would give up his guns for His children . Because they might not know why he was fighting. Horse crap , cowardice pure and simple.

        Of course so When they march his kids off because the world is overpopulated or not enough food for all.

        What would he say then?

        Stop by Ronkonkoma and ask the Sachem Deli where is the Samurai war lord.

        In will gladly march to get anyones weapons back taken Unconstitutionally.
        Fully armed of course, Oh and when the NRA takes up the Terminology to not call it a weapon and use the term pistol.
        They are co-opted and stupid , the Horse is out of the Barn.

        Delay tactics only work when you thin out the Herd.

  13. No. Big Government suffered a major defeat this year when they tried to disarm the citizenry. If the war over? Not by a long shot. Big government will remain a threat as long as its victims are willing to living reduced lives to keep their oppressors in power. The groups that elected this government are its biggest victims. Those of us who believe in liberty as opposed to personal autonomy need to convince African-Americans and millennials wise up and realize that big government wants to exploit them. If either group figures it out then big government will be defeated. My guess is that African-Americans will figure it out before the brain dead millennials.

    Americans have an opportunity to make a revolution every four years. Let’s keep it that way.

  14. Our Founding Fathers would not recognize this country today. Once we explained to them what we had become, how many laws we had, Social Security and taxes they would be distraught. They would be demanding explanations for how we let the Federal government get so big and so intrusive into our every day lives.

    • Actually, they would be shocked and horrified at how immoral we had become, and consider tyranny the natural result. Read their words on the subject.

      • The adage is true–“America is great because she is good. When she ceases to be good, she will cease to be great.” We, as a nation, have ceased being good. In ceasing to be good, we have become a nation that enjoys, revels, and delights in evil. Our leaders simply reflect the morals of the great unwashed. Since our leaders are evil, they will do wicked things–the first being the curtailing of basic rights, liberties, and freedom.
        How do you define morality? If I showed you one person who consistently broke one of the 10 Commandments, would you call that person moral? What about 5 of them? What if every day they lived to break all 10 of them? For you to understand why our political leaders hate the 10 articles in the Bill of Rights, it is illustrative to see how this nation first hates the 10 Commandments. From the hatred and animosity of morality stems the root of actions against freedom. If you don’t want preaching, skip to the bottom.

        Spiritually speaking, we have become a pluralistic society. Every religion imaginable is regarded as equal. A Theton has as much legitimacy as a Jew; the cross is now in the shadow of the crescent. I cringe when I hear people say, “God bless America.” Really? Which one? The Almighty? He only blesses those nations whose God is The Lord.
        Second, we have become a nation of idols. Each group has their own agenda they sacrifice for. For the liberals, it’s Mother Earth and the environment. For others, it might be guns.
        Third, we hold the name of God in contempt. How many “God damns”, “OMG”, and “Jesus Christs” have you heard this week? Do your movies need a cuss cup?
        Fourth, who takes Sunday off? Nobody I know.
        Fifth, we are a nation of blended families. Kids have 2 dads, 2 moms. We have his, her’s, and their’s kids. The mother and father family unit are not honored. In fact, the family has drifted into irrelevancy.
        Sixth, since 1973 almost 55,000,000 children have been murdered. Most people have no outrage at this. Imagine that 55,000,000 guns were confiscated tomorrow. Would you be outraged? Don’t People of the Gun quote “life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness?” Where is the protection of life?
        Seventh, lusting after a woman is adultery in your heart. Anybody guilty of that?
        Eight, who among us has stolen? We hate when it happens to us, but inventory “shrinkage” is the biggest loss retailers face. At my local Gander Mountain, People of the Gun walked off with over $16,000 in ammunition last month.
        Ninth, people lie about their neighbors all the time. Gossip falls in this category.
        Tenth, we covet like crazy. In the case of the government, they want our money.

        Is it any wonder that as our society has increasingly become more evil, that those in power pass more laws attempting to legislate the heart? Why do they do that? Because they of all people know that the heart is desperately wicked. If they can’t trust themselves, they won’t trust you. This is why they want weapon confiscation.
        I personally support strict background checks. Felons, mentally ill, drug users, woman abusers, poachers, and the depraved of society (just to name a few) should not have access to guns. I recognize that society has changed for the worse. This isn’t the Boy Scout 1950’s anymore. Here is the crux of my argument–because society has changed from its first founding, we can’t hold onto the same reasoning and logic that first formed this country. In that the 2A says “shall not be infringed”, it assumes a moral people. Moral people who could buy, sell, and trade SBR full-auto suppressed weapons with real grenade launchers and who could keep 55 mm howitzers in the backyard without any government oversight. The threat that exists to gun rights is not the tyranny of the government, but the tyranny of the heart.

        • TO: Epunthesis, et al.
          RE: Being ‘Good’ & ‘Great’

          I sought for the greatness and genius of America in her commodious harbors and her ample rivers, and it was not there; in her fertile fields and boundless prairies, and it was not there; in her rich mines and her vast world commerce, and it was not there. Not until I went into the churches of America and heard her pulpits aflame with righteousness did I understand the secret of her genius and power. — Alexis de Tocqueville, Democracy in America, c. 1835

          Regards,

          Chuck(le)
          [The slippery slope is getting steeper for US….]

        • The scope of the corruption lies beyond america’s ability to be righteous…and it has nothing to do with christendom. America is supposed to be a secular nation, one of rational theism (with rationality being paramount).

          It is human nature, the inevitable result of empires. Once the citizens become fattened with bread and hypnotized with circuses, them become apathetic and quick to believe any line of bullshit that is thrown their way. This transforms Republics into authoritarian cesspools.

          The final answer is that man does NOT have dominion over the earth. We cannot circumvent the laws of nature.

          Society has changed, although human nature has not. We have destroyed personal responsibility and justice, making accountability a distant dream in the eyes of the righteous witnessing these heinous acts.

        • Samuel just schooled Chuck! Way to go Samuel! Give that man a box of cigars.

          Chuck, STFU and save some face.

      • TO: WLCE
        RE: Missing the Point

        A people than cannot be ruled by a common law will instead be ruled by the sword.

        The common law of this land was Christianity back when de Tocquille visited US.

        RE: Secular

        By the separation of church and state, the Founding Fathers didn’t want the fiascos of France, Spain and England to happen amongst US. Everyone is enjoined to choose their own religious belief. The state did not press people to become Catholics or Presbyterians or Lutherans. But it was realized that Christianity was the best option over all the others.

        Doubt this?

        Look around you at what we’ve become. Baal and Molehk have returned.

        Regards,

        Chuck(le)
        [Be Prepared…..His forebearance is just about over…..]

        P.S. And that is when TSHTF….with a vengeance…..

        • I’m glad you are not in charge. If you were then we would have Salem Witch Trials Version 2.0 in every city. I think YOU would only be happy if we kept rolling back our civil rights advancements until we were back to ‘Only White, Male, Land Owners…”

        • You confuse an absolute moral standard with those who corrupt the standard.

        • TO: A-Rod
          RE: Heh

          You are completely wrong, buckie.

          Regards.

          Chuck(le)
          [Love thy neighbor as you love yourself. — The Christ]

          P.S. Indeed. I suspect YOU’RE projecting about the ‘witch hunting’…..

        • Chuck, I am okay with being burned at the stake for some of my beliefs but I would also fight tooth and nail against your ignorance. You should read the Treat of Tripoli. There is a very important sentence in there about the US nation. You are also ignoring that we have Freedom FROM Religion in this country just as much as we have Freedom OF Religion.

        • Yup. That’s the very first safeguard, Amendment I. The Founding Fathers knew about the dangers of theocracy and the “divine right of kings.”

        • TO: A-Rod
          RE: Fighting for Your Beliefs

          You are also ignoring that we have Freedom FROM Religion in this country just as much as we have Freedom OF Religion. — A-Rod

          Take your atheistic desire to strip me from expressing MY beliefs and cram it up your fourth-point-of-contact.

          It’s stated as Freedom OF Religion.

          You don’t like religion. Don’t practice it. But when you start saying I can’t express MY beliefs….THEN you’ve got a REAL ‘fight’ on your hands.

          Regards,

          Chuck(le)
          [The Truth will out…atheists are against the Constitution of the United States.]

        • Chuck Pelto commented:
          >TO: A-Rod
          >RE: Fighting for Your Beliefs
          >
          >>You are also ignoring that we have Freedom FROM Religion in this country just
          >>as much as we have Freedom OF Religion. — A-Rod
          >
          >Take your atheistic desire to strip me from expressing MY beliefs and cram it up
          >your fourth-point-of-contact.

          Nobody ever tried to ” strip [you] from expressing [YOUR] beliefs.” Why the hysterical reaction?

          What we’re claiming is merely that you are expressly forbidden to use the force of government arms to compel me to espouse/embrace your beliefs. But speak them all you want – that’s the other part of Amendment I. You have the right to say anything you want to. If I don’t like it, that’s my tough luck.

          however,
          >[The Truth will out…atheists are against the Constitution of the United States.]

          These two statements are contradictory. In fact, Atheism is perfectly consistent with Free Will and Self-ownership. I don’t need some invisible, infinite, all-powerful being to make my decisions for me, thank you very much. That’s why my Creator gave me a brain and sensory system.

          Personally, I believe that if God had wanted robots, she’d have probably created robots.

          Freedom is my Worship Word.

        • what makes you think I am an atheist? Freedom FROM Religion means I am free from your Religion or better yet no one’s Religion will dictate my life nor will my religion dictate yours. Religion is kinda like a penis- nice to have and to be proud of but not something your should waive around in public or shove down someone’s throat. I will let you practice your beliefs until they threaten me. So are we going to duke it out Catholic vs. Protestant style?

        • Here’s what my religion teaches: “Great peace have they that love thy law and nothing shall offend them.”. Also “Only by pride cometh contention.” Duke it out? Meditate on just these two scriptures and everyone get your head straight. We have a common adversary. We have a common cause. One of you is probably a troll anyway. I’ll let the rest of you figure out which one.

        • TO: Rich Grise
          RE: Yeah….Right….

          Nobody ever tried to ” strip [you] from expressing [YOUR] beliefs.” Why the hysterical reaction? — Rich Grise

          ….that’s why a bunch of homosexuals beat up on a Christian on the streets of Seattle the other day.

          It’s also why A-Rod says it’s Freedom FROM Religion.

          I was born at night….but it wasn’t LAST NIGHT.

          Regards,

          Chuck(le)
          [The Truth will out….if anyone cares to see it….]

          P.S. I’m not being ‘hysterical’. I’m not even ‘angry’. You’ve never SEEN me ‘angry’, but my First Sergeant has….and he was rather perturbed by it.

        • And how, exactly, do the antics of a couple of thugs half-way across the country prevent _YOU_ from expressing your beliefs?

        • P.P.S. If ‘freedom’ REALLY IS your “worship word”, you’d be standing with me, as opposed to opposing me.

          P.P.P.S. If God had wanted ‘robots’, He/She/It would not have given us ‘free will’.

          So, as God gave us free will, obviously God did not want us to be ‘robots’.

        • TO: Chucklehead
          RE: Not Missing the Point

          Yes, It is true that Christianity prevailed before America’s founding and was the popular faith (still is).

          It is, however, true that the founding fathers intended for our nation to be founded on a principal of theistic rationalism. You should read “The Faiths of our Founding Fathers” by David L Holmes.

          “But it was realized that Christianity was the best option over all the others.”

          Not only do I doubt this, but its bullshit, revisionist, David Barton-esque historical revisionism.

          There is no “but”. Separation of church and state meant just that.

          “Look around you at what we’ve become. Baal and Molehk have returned.”

          …which has nothing to do with a perceived “decrease” in christianity faith since the United States is suffering from the same ills every other empire has throughout history.

          You do realize Britain once controlled a quarter of the world’s surface right? You do realize they spread the “goodness of Christ” through the end of a musket to those evil savages? (Jesus would puke).

          [Be Prepared…..His forebearance is just about over…..]

          My preparations are doing as much good as I can do for the generation after me.

          Yeah…just about over…where have we heard this before?

          “P.S. And that is when TSHTF….with a vengeance…..”

          So a all powerful and all omnipresent Jesus and God is so threatened by human free thinking that they are going to bring the wrath down?

          f^ck me. This is going to get stupid.

          Ill also add: A-Rod, this is gold, “You should read the Treat of Tripoli. There is a very important sentence in there about the US nation”

          I dont have a problem with religion. I have a problem with those trying to “shine the light” upon me and warning me of the consequences of not “stepping into the light”.

        • TO: Rich Grise
          RE: A ‘Couple’???!?!?

          And how, exactly, do the antics of a couple of thugs half-way across the country prevent _YOU_ from expressing your beliefs? — Rich Grise

          Did you graduate kindergarten AFTER they stopped teaching how to ‘count’? Miss out on Sesame Street’s Count activities altogether?

          Those pictures indicate something more than a ‘couple’ of thugs.

          More to follow….

          ….now it’s time for breakfast.

          Regards,

          Chuck(le)
          P.S. Enjoy the Independence Day weekend…..

          ….you who claims to worship ‘freedom’ so much.

          P.P.S. By the by…..

          ….if you worship freedom so much, what have you done for US to support it?

          Anythink like 27 years in the service of your country in the Armed Forces of the United States?

        • Ah, I see. Rather than answer my simple question, you deflect and name-call. Imagine my surprise.

        • TO: A-Rod
          RE: How Do I Know….

          ….you’re an atheist?

          Because you act and talk like one.

          The key indicator being “Freedom FROM Religion”.

          Own it….

          Regards,

          Chuck(le)
          [Can atheists get insurance for acts of God?]

        • TO: WLCE
          RE: Multiple Items — Part 1

          Yes, It is true that Christianity prevailed before America’s founding and was the popular faith (still is).

          It is, however, true that the founding fathers intended for our nation to be founded on a principal of theistic rationalism. You should read “The Faiths of our Founding Fathers” by David L Holmes. — WLCE

          I don’t know Holmes from Adam. However, based on my own studies, I suspect Holmes is an agnostic, if not an outright atheist. Hence, unless you provide specifics about his report, I’m in the dark about his opinion….and will take it with very little consideration.

          On the other hand, based on my personal experience, I’m completely convinced that God IS real and He works in our lives, if we invite Him to act. Indeed. On several occasions my life was about to be terminated and that ‘still small’ voice was screaming in my minds ear telling me how to survive imminent destruction. The two most dramatic incidents being (1) plummeting out of a black night sky with a malfunctioning parachute and (2) in a snit with an 18-wheeler on an interstate one Wintery night.

          It’s really a shame that you’ve never experienced such things.

          “But it was realized that Christianity was the best option over all the others.” — Chuck to WLCE

          Not only do I doubt this, but its bullshit, revisionist, David Barton-esque historical revisionism. — WLCE

          It’s hardly so much cow manure. Consider this….

          It is impossible to rightly govern a nation without God and the Bible. — George Washington

          Isn’t he one of the major Founding Fathers?

          Here’s another….

          I have sworn upon the alter of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. — Thomas Jefferson

          I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that his justice cannot sleep forever. — Thomas Jefferson

          And another….

          Rebellion against tyrants is obedience to God. — Benjamin Franklin

          I’ve got scads more of such…..

          So, please explain to me how these people are not God fearing Christians.

          There is no “but”. Separation of church and state meant just that. — WLCE

          There is a ‘but’. And an important one.

          Here’s a test. Is it the states responsibility to suppress the expression of religious belief in the public environment?

          Please realize that a SCHOOL is public property. So are public parks and sidewalks.

          If it is NOT in their purview to suppress such expression, they why do they demand students to remove any cross they may be wearing?

          “Look around you at what we’ve become. Baal and Molehk have returned.” — Chuck to WLCE

          …which has nothing to do with a perceived “decrease” in christianity faith since the United States is suffering from the same ills every other empire has throughout history. — WLCE

          On the contrary. Please explain why christians cannot talk to women going into Planned Parenthood.

          In truth, the decrease in ‘faith’ in America is the root-cause of the mass murder of the most innocent of US over the last 40 years: 55 MILLION murdered by their own mothers.

          You do realize Britain once controlled a quarter of the world’s surface right? You do realize they spread the “goodness of Christ” through the end of a musket to those evil savages? (Jesus would puke). — WLCE

          Really? At “the end of a musket”? Please show me the evidence supporting your allegation. I always was of the understanding that that is what the Spanish did….via their infamous Inquisition. Or, earlier, the Muslims, during their initial incursion into Europe….or anywhere else TODAY.

          Otherwise, would you please explain to all of US how it is that the British rule of India allowed the Hindus to practice their religion as well as the Muslims theirs.

          [Continued In Next Message….]

        • [Continued from Previous Post….]

          TO: WLCE
          RE: Multiple Items — Part 2

          [Be Prepared…..His forebearance is just about over…..] — Chuck to WLCE and others

          My preparations are doing as much good as I can do for the generation after me. — WLCE

          Yeah…just about over…where have we heard this before? — WLCE

          The Jews heard it and didn’t pay heed. Look what happened there.

          “P.S. And that is when TSHTF….with a vengeance…..” — Chuck to WLCE

          So a all powerful and all omnipresent Jesus and God is so threatened by human free thinking that they are going to bring the wrath down? — WLCE

          As if….

          Or do you think you’re a ‘threat’ to God?

          I’m ‘impressed’…..

          And what powers do you possess that will dethrone him? Did Satan give them to you? If you think he did, why hasn’t he used such himself?

          f^ck me. This is going to get stupid. — WLCE

          [1] You’re not my type.
          [2] My wife would be VERY upset.
          [3] You’re uglier than my wife.

          Ill also add: A-Rod, this is gold, “You should read the Treat of Tripoli. There is a very important sentence in there about the US nation” — WLCE

          A-Rod wouldn’t no something of REAL worth any more than you apparently would.

          I dont have a problem with religion. I have a problem with those trying to “shine the light” upon me and warning me of the consequences of not “stepping into the light”. — WLCE

          Oh. Don’t BS me. I can tell when someone hates Christianity. You. A-Rod. Rich Grise. All same, same. Just different approaches.

          RE: The Proverbial ‘Bottom Line’

          It’s been 40 years since we began the mass murder of the most innocent of US all.

          God seems to like that number: 40.

          Noah spent 40 days and 40 nights on the Ark.

          Christ spent 40 days in the wilderness during His ‘temptation’.

          It was 40 years between the murder of Christ and the total destruction of Israel by the Romans.

          And in that year, the Jews were more interested in killing each other than fighting off the Roman legions besieging Jerusalem. Read Josephus’ account of the Wars of the Jews for the gory details. It’s really quite interesting….the parallels between what happened then and what is happening to US now.

          I would not be surprised that we have a really ‘interesting time’ during the course of this year….through mid-January 2014.

          Something of a ‘chastisement’…..if you will. Even if you won’t. But if nothing happens in that time…..so what. No skin of my nose. Indeed, He’ll work His way in His own time. Not by my calendar.

          Regards,

          Chuck(le)
          [Be Prepared….]

        • TO: Rich Grise
          RE: No Deflection….

          Ah, I see. Rather than answer my simple question, you deflect and name-call. Imagine my surprise. — Rich Grise

          Just a simple observation that you either can’t count or are obviously avoiding the reality of the situation that you want to make the centerpiece of the discussion.

          I have no time to deal with blatantly evil people….except to point out their true nature.

          As I have just done….again.

          Regards,

          Chuck(le)
          [Evil has many tools. And a lie is the handle that fits them all.]

        • TO: Chuckle(f^ck)
          RE: HA! You were warned…

          “I don’t know Holmes from Adam. However, based on my own studies, I suspect Holmes is an agnostic, if not an outright atheist. Hence, unless you provide specifics about his report, I’m in the dark about his opinion….and will take it with very little consideration.”

          1.) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_L._Holmes
          David Holmes is one of the most prominent and credible church historians there is. It does not matter what his religious faith is: His logic and clear speaking style are absolutely essential for debunking the pile of bullshit created by David Barton and his “Jefferson Lies” right wing historical revisionism.

          Its a shame you wont even consider reading “Faiths of our Founding Fathers”. If you need ammunition to defeat the liberal historical revisionism of “all our founding fathers were deists absolutely opposed to all religion”, then it will be absolutely paramount that you read this book.

          Its such a shame your own religious beliefs interfere with your ability to seek out truth and objectivity.

          “On the other hand, based on my personal experience…It’s really a shame that you’ve never experienced such things.”

          2.) Youre assuming a lot bucko

          I HAVE experienced close calls in my near 20 year career in the active duty Army and as a DOD contractor. After serving in Bosnia, Iraq, and Afghanistan, yes, times got hairy. Just in case you are curious, Im well aware of what it is like to drop out of a C130 at the dead of night with a T-10D as your only friend. Never had one not open. Ive busted a hip though and damn near froze to death in Alaska though. I also survived a explosively formed penetrator turning my 1151 into scrap metal.

          Im not interested in highlighting anything else, but I hope Ive made my point clear that my lack of religion was not born of ignorance or lack of risk. Perhaps I have been on the receiving end of irrational religious fanaticism. Long a student of history, the story about the Crusades, Spanish Inquisition, Spanish Meso-America expansion, and New England Witch Hunts never left my mind.

          Thats good that you’re convinced god is real. I mean that non sarcastically. It hasn’t been revealed to me yet.

          3.) You really need to fact check those quotations. If you would have read my book, you would know about the abundance of poorly conceived founding fathers quotes floating around. As a member of the armed intelligentsia, it is my duty to squash these like a bug. We already have a big enough problem with anti-gunners trying to revise history.

          “It is impossible to rightly govern a nation without God and the Bible. — George Washington
          Isn’t he one of the major Founding Fathers?”

          A.) George Washington Quote: Thats a Bogus Quote taken completely out of context (or stolen from and re-altered) from Washington’s first inaugural address.

          “I have sworn upon the alter of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. — Thomas Jefferson”

          B.) In regards to Jefferson: You have taken it completely out of context again and it is based on a letter that was much deeper.

          You should try reading his letter to Benjamin Rush. No worries, Ill post it for you,

          “ . . . I promised you a letter on Christianity, which I have not forgotten. On the contrary, it is because I have reflected on it, that I find much more time necessary for it than I can at present dispose of. I have a view of the subject which ought to displease neither the rational Christian not Deists, and would reconcile many to a character they have too hastily rejected. I do not know that it would reconcile the genus irritabile vatum (the irritable race of poets) who are all in arms against me. Their hostility is on too interesting ground to be softened. The delusion into which the X. Y. Z. plot shewed it possible to push the people; the successful experiment made under the prevalence of that delusion on the clause of the constitution, which, while it secured the freedom of the press, covered also the freedom of religion, had given to the clergy a very favorite hope of obtaining an establishment of a particular form of Christianity throu’ (a common writing habit of the times for the word Through) the U. S.; and as every sect believes its own form the true one, every one perhaps hoped for his own, but especially the Episcopalians & Congregationalists. The returning good sense of our country threatens abortion to their hopes, & they believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly; for I have sworn upon the alter of god, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: & enough too in their opinion, & this is the cause of their printing lying pamphlets against me, forging conversations for me with Mazzei, Bishop Madison, &c. (etc.), which are absolute falsehoods without a circumstance of truth to rest on; falsehoods, too, of which I acquit Mazzei & Bishop Madison, for they are men of truth. . . . “

          “tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that his justice cannot sleep forever. — Thomas Jefferson”

          C.) Another quotation not supported in any document. Ill tell you where its idea came from though.

          Thomas Jefferson’s publication to King George, “A Summary View of the Rights of British America” written in 1774 has “…tremble for my country…” although the that seems to be deliberately extracted from a entire phrase with a different context. Historical revisionists are very tricksey…
          http://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/jeffsumm.asp
          “Rebellion against tyrants is obedience to God. — Benjamin Franklin”

          D.) Another quote taken completely out of context (This seems to be a common pattern of behavior). This quote is derived a scene in “Exodus”, which Ben Franklin used to conceptualize the idea for a seal, which Tom Jefferson also highly favored. This, in no way, undoes the well known fact that any deist beliefs held by our founding fathers were well known to be held by Ben Franklin. Of course, Im not saying all were deists. Were some? Absolutely.

          “So, please explain to me how these people are not God fearing Christians.”

          You have NOT explained or proved that they were. Some were. Some werent. The truth is somewhere in between. Did Christian moralistic views inspire the American independence movement? Absolutely. You seem to be attacking strawmen and misrepresenting my views.

          4.) “Here’s a test. Is it the states responsibility to suppress the expression of religious belief in the public environment?”

          Yes because government institutions are not supposed to favor a particular religion (but they do in many cases). Read the First Amendment, “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion (F^CKING EMPHASIS ON THE FIRST PART), or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances”

          The lack of respecting an established religion in no way prohibits the free exercise thereof. End of story. End of discussion!

          “Please realize that a SCHOOL is public property. So are
          public parks and sidewalks. If it is NOT in their purview to suppress such expression, they why do they demand students to remove any cross they may be wearing?”

          Because government institutions are not supposed to respect an establishment of religion. Its a pretty simple idea chuckles. I have no problem with people praying. I have no problem with people being religious. The state should not respect any established religion, whether its Christianity, Islam, or Thetan-Squashing.

          5.) “On the contrary. Please explain why christians cannot
          talk to women going into Planned Parenthood.”
          Because they are trying to do this on Planned Parenthood’s property and they are trying to interfere with the reproductive rights of women.
          ..and how do you know those women are on their way to abortions? Oh right. You dont have a f^cking single clue that they are. The right’s attack against Planned Parenthood is something in the lines of this, “Go ahead and get cancer…see if we care”. Mammogram referrals? Nah. /rolls eyes

          Another example of Christian meddling into the rights of individual persons.

          6.) “In truth, the decrease in ‘faith’ in America is the root-cause of the mass murder of the most innocent of US over the last 40 years: 55 MILLION murdered by their own mothers.”

          Citations please.

          And that is utter bullshit. Roe V Wade can even be credited with the drastic crime reduction in the United States.

          What a woman decides with her body, provided it does not harm society, is none of anybody’s business. You or anybody else of faith has no right to determine her decision. The arrogance is disgusting.

          Is terminating pregnancies a good thing? I would not say so. No. That is my personal opinion. Should a woman have a right or choice to terminate a pregnancy if she was violently raped or if there is a imminent threat to her life? You f^cking A right they should have a choice.
          The same blanket argument can be applied towards Christians being responsible for the cannibalism and slaughter of pilgrims in Jerusalem during the Crusades. But unlike you, I prefer not to throw the baby out with the bath water.

          You do realize Britain once controlled a quarter of the world’s surface right? You do realize they spread the “goodness of Christ” through the end of a musket to those evil savages? (Jesus would puke). — WLCE
          7.) “Really? At “the end of a musket”? Please show me the evidence supporting your allegation. I always was of the understanding that that is what the Spanish did….via their infamous Inquisition. Or, earlier, the Muslims, during their initial incursion into Europe….or anywhere else TODAY.”

          LOL you seem to be ignorant of the adage, “Commerce and Christianity” http://www.britishempire.co.uk/article/evangelicalempire.htm
          http://www.common-place.org/vol-09/no-04/forum/opal.shtml
          Yes, the British utilized Christianity as a pillar to justify their imperialism.
          Were not even getting into the Crusades either http://fhs.dukejournals.org/content/31/4/525.abstract
           http://www.utexas.edu/cola/files/308838 (Warning PDF)
          “Otherwise, would you please explain to all of US how it is that the British rule of India allowed the Hindus to practice their religion as well as the Muslims theirs.”
          …In the words of Ronald Regan, “there you go again”.

          8.) “The Jews heard it and didn’t pay heed. Look what happened there.”

          Youre f^cking kidding me. Please tell me you’re joking.
          Just because someone doesn’t “pay heed”, then that justifies slavery and slaughter? That is a morally disgusting conclusion.

          9.) “As if….Or do you think you’re a ‘threat’ to God? I’m ‘impressed’…..”

          Where did I say I intend on challenging God or Jesus? Oh right. Nowhere.

          Such a idea is a folly. I guess Ill challenge Vishnu and Mohammed while Im at it. And Zeus, Thor…
          Im not sure why you think the idea of a all knowing, all powerful god striking down a non-believer, like a child does to a ant with a magnifying glass, is somehow in the realm of logic.

          10.) “[1] You’re not my type.
          [2] My wife would be VERY upset.
          [3] You’re uglier than my wife.”

          For once, Ill agree with you 😀 I undoubtedly am “uglier” than your wife but I realize that you didn’t call me “ugly” per se. Thanks for clearing that up.

          11.) “A-Rod wouldn’t no something of REAL worth any more than you apparently would.”
          So that is your rebuttal??? weak sauce Airborne /shakes head.

          I dont have a problem with religion. I have a problem with those trying to “shine the light” upon me and warning me of the consequences of not “stepping into the light”. — WLCE

          12.) “Oh. Don’t BS me. I can tell when someone hates Christianity. You. A-Rod. Rich Grise. All same, same. Just different approaches.”

          LOL Nowhere did I say I hated Christianity. If you summed up my arguments as “hating Christianity”, then I believe you would be worthy of Christian charity. Either that, or you need to grow up.

          Between the far left and the far right trying to destroy my country’s history and heritage with historical revisionism, this puts the rational in a dilly of a pickle.

          13.) Mass murder never began 40 years ago. It has been happening since humans crawled out of the swamp long ago. Roe V Wade was not a turning point.

          Yes 40. Hindus like 40 too (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanuman_Chalisa)

          So do Muslims http://themuslimvoice.wordpress.com/2009/04/22/why-is-the-number-40-important-in-islam/

          40. 40. 40.

          14.) “And in that year, the Jews were more interested in killing each other than fighting off the Roman legions besieging Jerusalem. Read Josephus’ account of the Wars of the Jews for the gory details. It’s really quite interesting….the parallels between what happened then and what is happening to US now.”

          And conversely, the Romans became so preoccupied with killing one another, that they bankrupted their empire and became vulnerable to barbarians. Yes, the same thing is happening to the US. Such is the fate of multiculturalist societies and empires.

          “I would not be surprised that we have a really ‘interesting time’ during the course of this year….through mid-January 2014.”

          I Say longer but who knows. The inevitable collapse of the dollar will be the single largest event in human history.

          Anyways, I hope you took notes. I would encourage you to buy that book and look at my hyperlinks.

          Regards,
          Samuel

        • TO: WLCE
          RE: Heh

          TO: Chuckle(f^ck) — WLCE

          What’s the matter? Did I make a direct hit on your ego?

          First it was ‘Chucklehead’

          Now you dropped to profanity.

          As we call it in the Army, that looks like a ‘direct hit’….if not a ‘catastrophic kill’.

          More to follow….got work to do and that diatribe you offered is worthy of a more substantial answer….which I can’t do immediately. Got a ‘sick’ swamper to work on today.

          Regards,

          Chuck(le)
          [You can tell when you’re getting close to the ‘target’, because they start throwing more flak at you. — US Air Force combat axiom]

  15. Five years? Try twelve, maybe even more. We’re just now finding out about a lot of what has been going on since PATRIOT act was passed, back when everyone agreed that it seemed to be a great idea.

  16. This morning I awoke and put up our countries flag. I am watching the series “The Revolution” on History Channel 2 today while I celebrate the 4th with some R&R given the hours I have been working.

    During the series they pointed out even at the height of the Revolutionary war, while Patriots outnumbered Loyalists 2 to 1, historian after historian said about half of the population even with war in their back yards, did not give a crap one way or another and would not choose sides unless something tragic happened to them which would sway them.

    I see this still true today. We have today’s Patriots who care about the constitution and the right to bear arms, and we have the government Loyalists. The Patriots probably outnumber them 2 to 1 but roughly 50% of the country just wants to left alone and truly cannot be bothered to be involved. The only difference today is there is about 20% or more of the country who dependent on the royal tit.

    I am convinced 200+ years later and 200+ years from now, the same fight will rage. There will those who wish to be free, there those who wish for control and there are a large portion who do not give a crap until it impacts them directly in some way.

    • “I see this still true today. We have today’s Patriots who care about the constitution and the right to bear arms, and we have the government Loyalists. The Patriots probably outnumber them 2 to 1 but roughly 50% of the country just wants to left alone and truly cannot be bothered to be involved.”

      I think this is sorta comparable to the situation you see in our current war zones. Most of the populace doesnt care enough one way or another to be involved in the conflict. They are polite and helpful to whoever is in power at the current time so they can get by. They just want to be left alone to live their lives. Same thing in America. Some people are wired to want to just be left alone.

    • Right on Pascal. Study the Vietnam War. We tried to win the “Hearts and Minds” of the general population and did we succeed? No way. While the war raged around them, they planted their rice, raised their crops and didn’t give a rat’s ass as long as they were left alone. If the VC tax collectors killed the village chief and stole their rice, they came to the Americans because we provided them with shelter, medicine and food (I guess that would be like welfare?). If we bombed their village, they went over to the VC side. When we left Vietnam, they just went with the flow again.

  17. The question was posed have we the people gone too far already: the more accurate question is has the government? I’d say yes. It has moved to silence the soap box. It ignores the ballot box. It has perverted the jury box. It is trying to confiscate the cartridge box. Ya, its gone way too far already.

  18. We could only be one race riot (days) away or never ??If they go for our guns they started it.

    • TO: the last Marine out
      RE: Heh

      If they go for our guns they started it. — the last Marine out

      Just like at Lexington and Concord.

      Regards,

      Chuck(le)
      [History repeats itself. That’s one of the problems with History.]

  19. We get the government we deserve; they are a symptom of our disease; a sickness of the soul that we as a people have and the government is a mirror to us of that fact.

    Picking up arms against this government before this sickness is acknowledged and healed would be suicide. For me, as an ex-progressive/ liberal growing up in a culture focused on self-hatred, self-flagellation and self-destruction which manifests as a cultural death wish; I had to first be shown that there is a higher power and we are it’s creation and that creator is unconditional love.

    But there was no burning bush or face in the sky, it was simply an experience of being shown the universe as it truly is, and that universe is absolute wonder and love.

    How people find that truth is unique to each person, but for me in my own unique journey, years later; after first exploring my connection to the universe through earth peoples teachings; ultimately led me to Christ; and he has shown me the evil that those proclaiming proudly to believe in no god and the mass murder of Hundred of millions of human beings ; which includes the unborn, in the last hundred years in their mad vision of a utopia on earth.

    Each person will find their truth in their own way; I’m not saying my truth is the only truth; but this IS my truth; this is after all America where we are free to practice a spiritual belief , or not.

    So I will close by saying Happy Birthday to us all and God Bless America, greatest country in the world!

    • Thomas R. Thank you. Without acknowledging the sickness, the greed that lies at the bottom of our problems, we’ll not succeed. We don’t need a revolution as much as a Restoration. A restoration of faith and adherence to our nations founding principles. It isn’t the Constitution that has failed us, but we who have failed the Constitution.

      • We need another great depression like we had in the 30’s. The debauchery of the roaring 20’s stopped when people were out of work and had to skip a few meals because they couldn’t pay for the food anymore.

        America pulled together, got back to the basics in several ways, and realized that a moral society is the right kind of society. ‘The greatest generation’ of the 40’s and 50’s was a direct result of the societal cleansing of the great depression.

        I’m not looking forward to another great depression, but we desperately need one. And anyone who cares to look can see several signs that an economic collapse will happen soon. The people of the 20’s could see their economy on the brink, but no one wanted to stop the party while they were having so much fun.

        • really? We need another World War to get us out of a Depression. That’s gonna suck.

  20. Here is what Obama said about us yesterday in Tanzania:

    AP reporter Ramona Darlington, who attended the conference asked President Obama to explain what the profile of an American domestic terrorists is? Obama responded by saying, “Typically domestic terrorists in the U.S. are people who cling to obsolete beliefs from the time of the American Revolution. They are conservative Christians, reactionary Republicans and conspiracy theorists many of whom belong to racist hate groups.”

    “Tea Partiers commonly own guns and stock up ammunition and food in anticipation of starting another civil war to overthrow the will of the governing body who represent all of the American people. We are prepared for any contingency and don’t expect to see any kind of large insurrection. Americans are capitalists who are much more interested in seeing America move forward. These terrorists groups are small in size and really present little danger,” the President added.

    • So is this actually true?

      Only quotes I can find are on blogs.

      Doesn’t seem like something the president could get away with saying without getting grilled by the media.

    • Yeah… I’m not buying that this was actually said. Screw me sideways if it was, but me no think so.

        • Ummm wow! Thank you sir. Im kind of hoping this is credible, that he really did say this. But its too good to be true.

        • Yeah.. Not buying it. No citations or references included, and the article is just plain poorly written. It’s basically someone’s blog posting.

          To add to that, here’s the disclaimer below it:

          *DISCLAIMER: The National Report is an online portal for “citizen journalists”. The views expressed by writers on this site are theirs alone and are not reflective of the fine journalistic and editorial integrity of National Report. Advice given is NOT to be construed as professional. If you are in need of professional help, please consult a professional. National Report is not intended for children under the age of 18.”

        • TO: In Memphiis & Jeff
          RE: Well…..

          …..I do recall that the so-called major media has a long and standing history of suppression of information that goes against their ‘narrative’.

          So, I’m probably not as skeptical as you appear to be. But, being well trained in Military Intell, I’m keeping an eye and ear out for corroborating evidence….something other than memes from people repeating this report.

          Regards,

          Chuck(le)
          [Military Intelligence is not an oxymoron. Indeed, it’s a better system than the so-called Mainstream Media uses in ‘reporting’.]

  21. As the saying goes, “If you find pieces of a tattered American flag on the floor, for God’s sake, bend down and pick them up.”

    To get it in tatters in the first place, however, you might need a little help. Lexington, South Carolina high school teacher Scott Compton lends a hand — or rather, a boot:

    A South Carolina teacher might lose his job after allegations that he stomped on the American flag in front of his honors English class.

    Scott Compton repeated the action in three classes over the course of the day at Chapin High School, according to WIS-TV. Compton was attempting to show that America is an “inspirational idea” while the physical flag is just a piece of cloth. Compton’s attorney, Darryl D. Smalls, said that the teacher … was using the action to demonstrate that America is greater than the “material objects that represent it.

    I don’t know how inspired Mr. Compton’s students were, but I do know the parents in this military town were less than happy about his instruction. He has been suspended pending administrative review.

    Truth be told, I agree with Mr. Compton’s lesson, if not the method. The American flag represents an idea that cannot be destroyed no matter how enthusiastically he stomps on it in class.

    In America’s supposedly 50-50 nation (or schooled by the election results, 48.7-50.3), one of the ideas protected by our Constitution and represented by our flag is under attack: the Right to keep and bear arms. Pace Lexington parents’ concerns over Mr. Compton’s Riverdance on the Stars & Stripes, I’m somewhat more concerned about that.

    As I alluded to the other day, some countries are suffering the results of being “bi-cultural.” This is distinct from the multicultural rainbow coalition over which Jesse Jackson presides, divvying up the American pie (to mix my metaphors). When the appetites of every color in that rainbow are catered to the internal contradictions become a little problematic. Fights are bound to break out when your fork stabs the other guy’s hand grabbing your slice.

    A new demarcation has appeared over the last few elections splitting America between urban, liberal Democrats and rural, conservative Republicans. Generally speaking, this last go around was won by the cities. If you bring up an electoral result map showing county-by-county voting patterns you will see broad swaths of red measled by urban blue dots all across the land.

    It so happens that non-criminal Americans who own guns have for generations more typically lived in rural counties than urban. This new divide seems to reflect the voting patterns we experienced in November. Since Sandy Hook, gun control has been foremost in our national debates. There have been calls for outright gun confiscation — in Iowa (Pop. 3.1M). Conversely, Wyoming (Pop. 550k) is contemplating a bill that would make it a felony for the federal government to take them.

    Marine Jon Davis wrote a dystopian piece on Quora about what would happen if every state in the union went to war against each other. It is a good bit and has been read about 41,000 times. He wrote this well before Sandy Hook, well before Gun Control cleaved the nation again in two. So what I think is interesting is that Jon’s piece attracted so much…interest.

    Back before multiculturalism, before the Rainbow Coalition — before identity politics, 8-year doctoral programs in women’s studies and 32-year-old college student’s Congressional condom testimony — the rights protected in our Constitution applied equally to all. Today there is a concerted, coordinated effort to undermine that union by subordinating those rights, pitting one-half of America against the other. America is turning into a bi-cultural nation.

    This will not lead to harmony. This will not end well. The tattered pieces of our flag are being strewn upon the floor. Shall we bend down to pick them up? Or like Mr. Compton, dance the days away?

    • “Back before multiculturalism, before the Rainbow Coalition — before identity politics, 8-year doctoral programs in women’s studies and 32-year-old college student’s Congressional condom testimony — the rights protected in our Constitution applied equally to all.”

      Unless, of course, you were a woman, or black, or Hispanic, or a Jew, or Gay… There is no “grand old time” when rights were applied equally to all.

      • You are full of it an an idiotic fraud. ah the poor blacks and women were so horribly treated . All those intact families and Long living women, Now they get sick and die earlier like us.

        He missed you point because he has the Lib agenda disease.

        Logic no longer matters to them. It is all about feelings and what the world should be

        • That’s okay. I’m a scary conservative with a hidden agenda.

          It’s nice to be among TTAG friendlies, today of all days.

  22. Just thought I’d swing by on this glorious Independence Day to see if all the big talk and mutual masturbation about how enlightened and “revolutionary” you all are has manifested in even one, tiny action.

    Looks like it hasn’t, which is strange because apparently the “revolution” has been going on for five years now. Strange it didn’t start while Bush was raping the constitution either, but I’m sure that’s just co-incidence – fine upstanding “ex military” types would not make any distinction between a terrible democrat president and a terrible republican one, would they?

    Oh well, I suppose “jaw jaw is better than war war” and perhaps we can harness all the hot “revolutionary” air round here for some kind of natural power source!

      • So what revolutionary acts have you performed in the last five years jwm? Other than the “revolutionary” act of big talk on his board 24/7, of course (which I know in the minds of you guys is worth 3-4 political assassinations and one successful military campaign at least!)

        • You want a revolutionary act hmmmmm? Post your address and I will show you one. Or are you just a coward and full of hot air?

        • I don’t claim to be a revolutionery hmmmmmmer. I write, vote and donate money to the cause. If people like you push taking away our civil rights to the point that a war does break out then I, like many of my brethren, will do what needs to be done. I, like many of the commentors here, am military trained and experienced.

        • Please chrchase, tell me in detail what you want to do to me. I’m sure your peers will be very impressed with your internet tough guy anonymous threats!

        • Unlike you I don’t give a cr@p what anyone on here thinks. Well then you shouldn’t have anything to worry about, yet you still didn’t post it. Just another liberal coward. You’re one of those emasculated liberal hippies who wouldn’t know how to defend your life. Which is why you love the government, they are your only means of protection.

        • TO: chrchase
          RE: Hummmmmmer

          Obviously, this character has a serious psychological problem. Looks to me like a sado-masochistic complex, which they satisfy like some homosexual going into a west Texas saloon and coping a feel on the biggest cowboy in the place.

          Regards,

          Chuck(le)
          [The Truth will out….and such psychopaths won’t like it…..]

    • Obama is a counterrevolutionary. Fascism in all its forms was defeated by the end of the Twentieth Century. You are and your friends are the true reactionaries trying to restore the old Fascist order.

      • Put down the crack pipe and turn off Alex Jones TD – I think you’ve gone a bit too far into the deep end.

        • I see you use the standard Fascist school of debate response #1. I will respond with information before I insult you.

          Georges Sorel, the French radical syndicalist (every heard of him? (Now no cheating and checking wikipedea!) He is the founding father of modern Fascism. While Mussolini, inspired by Sorel, defined the actual word, Sorel defined the concept. Fascism is a collectivist ideology built around a central organizing principle, called myth of delusion by the great Italian economist Vilfredo Pareto. Red Fascism was organized around dialectical materialism. Brown Fascism was organized around Aryan Supremacy. Black Fascism was organized around the restoration of the Roman Empire in the Mediterranean, Today Fascism is a veritable rainbow coalition of Red, Brown and Black with its new color of Green added to the mix. Today Fascism is organized around the Gaia concept and global climate catastrophe. It is no surprise the Gaia worship was an essential element of Nazism. Red + Green = Brown. What Fascism isn’t is opposition to Socialism. That is the Stalinist definition.

          If you didn’t have SFBs you would probably take the opportunity educate yourself by doing some research into early Twentieth Century radical political thought. However, since you lack the mental wherewithal to do anything except repeat what have read today at the Daily Kos I doubt you will take my advice. A pity, becoming a knowledgeable Fascist would be a point in your favor.

        • tdiinva is correct, hmmmm. Liberalism, progressivism, socialism, communism, fascism & naziism are all facets of the same lump of Fool’s Gold. To understand this, please read “Liberal Fascism” by Jonah Goldberg.

        • Its funny how communists and socialists are mentioned as being authoritarian in nature, although not a single soul has said anything about Corporatism, Mercantilism, Theocracies, and Oligarchies.

          How about we oppose authoritarianism in all forms instead of the ones our party caters to.

      • tdiinva, you need to do some homework

        Obama is merely a puppet and hardly the progenitor that is authoritarianism. He is merely a symbol of the status quo.

        The real fascists are on wall street, their reach expanding into the banking syndicates and military industrial complex.

        There is nothing “fascist” about climate change and the fact that humans are destroying the planet at a unparalleled rate. That is science, not faith or ideology.

        What is fascist is worship of the almighty petro-dollar and the infinite growth paradigm. The merger of state and corporate entities sort of speak, which is arguably the definition of fascism to begin with.

        • I am afraid you need to do your homework. “Global Warming” ended 15-17 years ago. Even some major advocates of “climate change’ such the Economist are wondering what happened. Now, real climate scientists in Russia and Germany believe we are now in cooling phase that will return temperatures to their 19th Century levels.

          I recommend you look at Dr. Roy Spencer’s analysis of predictive performance of climate models. The phrase epic fail comes to mind. Spencer is head of NASA’s remote atmospheric sensing unit at the Marshall Spaceflight Center in Huntsville. Global Warming/Climate Change is the biggest scientific fraud since Lysenko.

        • “The merger of state and corporate entities sort of speak, which is arguably the definition of fascism to begin with.”

          That is the Stalinist definition. However, as I explained above Sorel is the founding father of the idea and his definition is authoritative while your Stalinist one is propaganda. Sorry but Fascism is not merely the opposition to socialism. It it is a political theory of collectivist government that encompasses all forms of ideologically based collective. Today first and foremost “Ecoism” is the prime form of existing Fascism.

        • your beyond help.

          Im not even going to waste my time.

          Ill count my losses, and nuke from orbit. Its the only way to be sure.

    • Its not time for a revolution yet.

      “fine upstanding “ex military” types would not make any distinction between a terrible democrat president and a terrible republican one, would they?”

      Woah…go easy there tiger. Some of us “ex military types” are waiting for the day the bush administration is sent to the Colorado Supermax for a life sentence. Believe it or not, some of us call bullshit wherever we see it.

      Speaking of tiny actions, I know I was not the only one standing on line during a Occupy Movement in a undisclosed major California city.

  23. As I’ve said before about the possibility of a revolution or civil war. Who will lead? Without unity and leadership you have the next Waco or Ruby ridge. What unity do we People of the Gun Show? How many of us agree about abortion? About womens place in our society? About acceptance of minorities? How can we be an effective force if we do not set aside our personal beliefs for the greater good?

    Our first revolution we had a European, Steuben, pound the continentals into a real army and we had support from a world power, the French. Where would that support come from today? And at what price?

    How do any of the countries who might support us feel about invidual liberties and gun rights?

  24. We are in a mode now not unlike the opening moves of a chess game. That bit of time and few moves before the first piece is captured. We are in an environment of velvet gloved tyranny. The federals give us just enough to keep us entertained, distracted, overweight and stupid. And it’s working for them.

    The moves right now represents the laying of the groundwork for both oppression and resistance. The nation is being cut to pieces and divided up on moral grounds, and balkanized along racial and political lines. We lost the media and now face a torrent of propaganda daily. But the Federals make one mistake. We have the Internet for the time being.

    Disunity is apparent. The government is quite capable of total loss of ability to maintain rule of law. Detroit is the example of the new American city.

    Conflict is inevitable and the federals KNOW this as they will be the ones to kick it off, most likely with a controlled economic collapse (that they will quickly lose control of). Thus they are placing every weapon, every surveillance tool, every logistical pipeline possible in place. The most insidious tool they use is dependency. Those dependent on Government are most easily controlled.

    Is it to late to fix it? Oh yes. The political process is now so thoroughly corrupt that it is non-redeemable. Those that look forward to the next election cycle are fools. America has it’s face fixed on it’s iPhone. Americans are in the midst of one huge pointless, insipid and nonsensical cellphone conversation. They are drunk or stoned or both. They are busy with newly legalized and state certificated sodomy. They spend countless hours on video games, and that stuff that comes out the end of the Hollywood sewer pipe, TV and movies which are mostly left-wing polemic.

    So you think you are tough eh? You might be. Probably not though. A lot of us are going to have to fight this thing in a manner beyond our normal reach. But as many a sergeant told me, ‘you are capable of much more than you think’.

    • nice comment until you started talking about smartphones, which many of us use to stay updated on RKBA issues and communicate/plan/organize in protection of those rights.

      I get tired of old crusty fudds slamming “those youngins buried deep in their smartphones” or whatever other inflammatory statement can be made against those devices. what the hell do you think we’re using them for?

      then you go off the rails and make allude that legalized marijuana and gay rights have something to do with political corruption – as if less government intrusion into our lives is a great thing, until it upsets your personal moral compass. which, at one point was the great thing about America: the nation was founded on the idea that the populace was free to upset eachothers’ moral compasses, until certain groups decided that it was, for some reason, the government’s mandate to enforce biblical morals.

      HAPPY INDEPENDENCE DAY.

      • Electronic devices are putting America, and especially it’s youth, into an unaware trance. It is not a mere tool to them. It’s an extension of themselves, and as long as they have it in hand, nothing else matters much.

        As to dope legalization and homosexual marriage, yes, I so make moral judgements, but that is not what I am getting at. People who back such things see them as giant blows for liberty, when in reality they are mere distractions (and intended as such) from ever increasing federal intrusions into everyday American life.

        Those of you that celebrate such victories ought to re-think. Why? You just invited government into places where you said you didn’t want them. The bedroom and the pipe, as if rights are somehow a gift from the Government.

        • The same could be said about the computer you are using. It wasn’t so long ago that older folks dismissed computers and the internet as a generational fad, but alas, here we are using the tool to our advantage to discuss these issues.

          It seems to me that you simply have not found the way to leverage smartphone technology yet to achieve the same goals.

          As for marijuana & gay marriage legalization: my attitude is that the government has no authority to declare either of those things illegal OR legal. The government should have zero business dictating what I put into my body, nor does it have any business sanctifying one form of union over another.

          So you see, I am actually advocating for less government involvement in those two affairs. It’s not my prerogative to involve the government in either: other folks who believe that the government has to give them the OK to do these things have made that possible. Given the option, it’s better to have the government say “yes you can do XYZ” than “no you can not do XYZ” – though I would prefer that the government have NO say at all.

        • Okay, gay marriage. The government can’t wash it’s hands of the issue because marriage is too deeply embedded in too many laws and rights and therefore a legal definition of what is a marriage and what isn’t is required.

          Just as one example, spousal privilege is the privilege that can be invoked to prevent a spouse from being compelled to testify against the other. It’s not a privilege that applies to just any kind of relationship, it’s specifically for married people. What’s more, the privilege applies to communication between the spouses during the marriage, so you have to establish when you were married. All of that means that there needs to be a legal standard set for who is married and what legally establishes a marriage.

          That’s just one example. There are many, many more, including medical treatment, probate, taxes. The list of legal areas where marital status comes into play is very long.

  25. i sure hope nothing happens. back in the 1700s a citizen militia could fight an army, but today we wouldn’t stand a chance. musket to musket = fair fight. modern day ar-15 vs. drone/thermal vision/ac-130s. not the fairest fight.

    • You assume the military will turn against the citizens. BTW they have held their own against our military in the middle east and they don’t have drones, tanks, thermal vision etc… I believe we will not only stand a chance but we would win, unless the majority of people think like you.

    • Were drones, gunships, etc., used on the likes of the DC snipers, Chris Dorner, or the Boston marathon bombers?

      While the causes they murdered for were unjust and the mistakes they made cost them their lives or freedom, their actions are worth studying. These terrorists caused immense chaos and fear, and the authorities were unable to stop them until the stupid mistakes committed by these terrorists caught up with them. Patriots could fight using their tactics.

      • The reason the Black Muslim DC Sniper was caught by a civilian is because Wash. DC PD Chief Moose told his LE’s to look for a White Man.
        All the fed sponsored anti-terrorist training cycles specify conservative white “terrorists”. I think the current Regime’s expectations are that they will be dealing with “White Terrorists” Nez Pas?

    • You might want to tell the illiterates in Afghanistan armed with AKs and homemade bombs not to take on the only military superpower on the planet because they shouldn’t be winning.

      • Yes and those drones would still need to be piloted by people who drive to work and have families that go shopping and kids that go to school. And those AC 130s would have air crews that walk around outside and the same for their families, and all the people that work on the various bases. I wonder how much more effective the rag heads would be in such a target rich environment?

      • Hey mister government agent. I just made that last comment just in case your masters hadn’t considered such things. Knowing how forward thinking challenged they seem to be I’m just doing my best to keep this whole hornet’s nest they’ve kicked over from becoming a total cluster f*ck. Once again I’ll ask you all, do you really want to be part of this? Remember Nuremburg!

        • Michael Marriam. Advocating murder of women and children because they’re related to government people and carrying out such acts will earn you a place on the gallows alongside the people that forgot Nuremburg.

  26. With the exception of hmmmmr, the opinions here are the many reasons I like this site. There are some pretty darn intelligent people contributing here.

    IMHO, we’re not there yet. I think a whole lot more people than just us firearms aficionados need to be trampled upon before some event, some trigger (pardon the pun), causes mass civil unrest.
    When it does happen, we’ll likely have but a couple of days to HYST.
    I think being well armed with a huge amount of ammo is the best way to protect your family and your self.
    I haven’t yet been all over the world, but I just visited six countries.
    I’m damned happy to be home with my family, celebrating the fourth. I believe this is the finest country on earth.
    Keep your powder dry, your nose to the ‘winds of change’, your heart and mind sharp.
    Happy Fourth everyone.

    • “There are some pretty darn intelligent people contributing here.”

      Was this message transcribed from crayon and posted for you by the asylum staff?

      • Hmmmm is jealous. He isn’t allowed to have crayons because he eats them. It turns his drool into a rainbow and stains the padding on his walls.

        • TO: Leo338
          RE: Hummmmmmmer

          He’s not ‘jealous’. He’s a masochist who comes here for his daily fix.

          Regards,

          Chuck(le)
          [Psychopaths are untreatable in psychotherapy precisely because having a conscience is a prerequisite for being able to use psychotherapy, and psychopaths have no conscience in the first place. — Sigmund Freud]

  27. “We” just haven’t been pushed far enough yet.
    When “We” are, the rest of you will know it.
    Suicidal or not.
    Its inevitable.
    It only took 3% of the population the last time.
    The rest just stood by and waited for the outcome.

    • “It only took 3% of the population the last time”

      And here we have, in a nutshell, the entire pro gun movement distilled down to a sentence. My god your panties just get dripping wet thinking about being the 3% lording it over the rest of us, don’t you? Because if you can’t get what you want democratically, then you will take it by force – and you see NOTHING wrong with that, do you? Terrifying and pathetic all at the same time.

      Fortunately you have about as much chance of making good on your big talk as I have sprouting wings and flying to work next week.

        • Of course – I work for a shadowy fifth column organization paid for by a secret Obama administration slush fund. My job is to sow discord among the ranks of the finest, most patriotic American citizens by posting on a pro gun (though laughably self branded as impartial) internet message board. I’m surprised you hadn’t worked it out already!

      • Ummm. No. Because this time around, being a member of the three percent means probable death.

        And if you are naive enough to believe that what we have currently in a democratic process, you can have it.

      • TO: Hummmmmmmer
        RE: Heh

        And here we have, in a nutshell, the entire pro gun movement distilled down to a sentence. My god your panties just get dripping wet thinking about being the 3% lording it over the rest of us, don’t you? — Hummmmmmmmmmmer

        Actually, if you’re the clinical paranoid you’re presenting yourself here as being, I suggest you do something to prepare yourself for the—as you presume—forthcoming Second American Civil War/Revolution.

        My suggested prep is you go down to your local Recruiter and ask to go Airborne-Ranger or Marine. That way, given time and self-discipline, you’ll be properly prepared to fight for your life.

        Might actually save your life. And even some of your friends and neighbors.

        Regards,

        Chuck(le)
        [If you had a life in the first place, you’ll never have a mid-life crisis.]

  28. ThomasR hit the nail on the head up above in the comments. The government we have is a direct reflection of society. People have voted in exactly what they want. The big government types have conditioned the masses, and now they just keep voting them in. Hey, liberty is a scary thing. You may fall flat on your face, you may loose everything. Gotta have the Fed right there to tell you how to live, tell you what to think, and to envelop you in the warm, benevolent arms of the state. That’s the revolution right there. We have gone from a country of rolling up the sleeves and getting down to work to a country of people who would rather let big daddy handle everything. The revolution has come and gone, what you have now is the end result.

  29. It is interesting to see this sentiment expressed by more than myself. I expect you lot feel something similar.

  30. Revolutions never come from the common people. They come typically from the middle class, with leadership and inspiration from an upper-class turncoat or two. People never tend to revolt against oppression until outrageous actions turn pent-up frustration into a passionate desire for action. What is then required is a strong leader, who turns that desire for action into an effective revolution, instead of a few days of mob violence, which can be easily crushed by soldiers.

    Frustration is building, but I do not think it has quite yet reached a boiling point. Many of us are outraged already, true, but we are outraged on principle, and government actions have not yet alienated the “typical” American enough that they would even consider revolution a remote possibility. Most of them are quite content to sign their liberty away to the government, just as long as they can continue to buy and play the latest video game, watch the latest reality TV on a 65″ plasma screen in an overstuffed chair in their living room, and eat at Pizza Hut.

    However, a few more crass examples of government tyranny, and the right, unpredictable, circumstances, might take things from “slight discontent and worry” to full-blown insurrection. For example, who can say what might happen if/when Zimmerman is acquitted and massive race riots break out? They could be an unimportant historical footnote, or, depending on how things play, it could potentially be the catalyst for something bigger.

    • As you say. The “Sons of Liberty” can do a good job of breaking things, bringing chaos and anarchy. But for a successful nation to rise from the ashes you need some Founding Fathers.

      • All I was just saying is that “We” as in The People.
        Stand around and let someone else do the dirty work.
        Most folks didnt have a dog in the fight back in 1776.
        They could have cared less who told them how, what, when or where with no why?? Most today and in the near future. Will just sit back and watch the TV and let others get involved. Which will be suicidal. As long as their daily lives went unchanged. But 3% was all that was needed back then to make this country what it used to be. Might take a few more today, but it will happen eventually……again.

  31. Personally I’m no Nostrodamus. But I am old enough to have been around as a child when in the early 1960’s the cities of America started to burn. Shots were fired from both sides. Body counts were published in the papers daily. I watched as Federal troops and National Guard were deployed into urban areas to quell the rioting. It wasn’t pretty. Some cities to this day, nearly a half century later carry the scars and haven’t recovered.

    I don’t want to see my children have to go thru anything approaching a civil war. But I will tell you that from my experience, conflagrations get started on the smallest of triggers. An arrest. A beating. A tax. A single man shot and killed. It seems no one can predict when it will happen. But everyone knows when it did.

    The societal and political tinder box we live in today is ripe for a errant spark.

  32. Somebody in one of the Piers Morgan video comment threads at youtube asked me, “Do you really believe that tyranny stuff?” I replied, “Well, I’m not the only one who’s noticing: http://cspoa.org/ . You’re free to keep your blinders on, but when the Federal storm troopers break down your door and ransack your house looking for the contraband du jour, please don’t say we didn’t try to warn you.”

  33. It’s possible to through out the regime in the White House every 4 years; it’s called an election. If you respect the system the founding fathers put in place you ought to respect its outcomes, even when you disagree. And if things are that bad, you are free to move to a country that better reflects your values.

  34. I will save my most important comments on this NSA thing for the end — as there is no bold or italics — I will make that point in ALL CAPS. But first — I wish to comment on another comment:

    “Unfortunately, under current laws, the NSA’s activities are legal. That may change, but since Snowden was an employee of an intelligence agency with a Top Secret clearance, and the activities he leaked weren’t illegal, he does not get Whistleblower protection.”

    I see a couple of problems with this analysis. Firstly there is the US Constitution. Secondly, he is working for a contractor — not the US Govt. and violating his employment agreement (not an “oath”) is grounds for dismissal — but any criminal charge is a stretch — no less closing down all EU airspace for the Pres. of Bolivia.

    Thirdly — the “legality” of the NSA activities depend strongly on the idea that the NSA (and others) are truthfully describing what they are up to. In fact, they have lied to congress and the public and have improperly described their activities.

    Fourthly — they are not mass-downloading all the daily data in the US because they are concerned about “terrorism” (an attack would benefit THEM greatly). Do we really think terrorists are posting on FaceBook: Hey! does this bomb-vest make me look FAT? Or — hey guys! Check out my new stinger missile launcher! And yes, the NSA knows what guns & ammo you bought with AMEX & VISA.

    Finally — Mr Snowden’s personal travels and other drama has acted as a distraction from the real story. None of this NSA info is really new — but the MSM managed to studiously ignore previous NSA leakers and investigators. Snowden has attracted much attention.

    But the real issue is thus:

    THE INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY CAN AND DOES SNOOP ON INDIVIDUALS HIGH UP IN OUR GOVERNMENT, SENATORS, JUDGES, WHITE HOUSE COMMUNICATIONS, ETC. THIS ALLOWS THEM TO BLACKMAIL — GOV OFFICIALS, CONTROL OPPONENTS AND KNOW WHAT *EVERYONE* IS UP TO 100% OF THE TIME.

    THE INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY HAS BEEN RUNNING THE SHOW BEHIND THE SCENES FOR A LONG TIME — AND ONLY OCCASIONALLY BECOMES VISIBLE — SUCH AS WITH JFK-RFK-MLK. BIG-DATA IS BEYOND BIG BROTHER — IT IS INDIRECT CONTROL OF OUR GOV.

    I HEAR LOTS OF COMMENTS ABOUT OBAMA IN THE GUN WORLD — OBAMA IS A SOCK-PUPPET.

    THIS IS A VIRTUAL COUP.

  35. Peaceful civil resistance should always be tried first against a tyrannical government, not armed resistance. Armed resistances historically destroy the nation because they destroy the society of said nation. They historically lead to dictatorships. The people possessing arms is to serve as a final, ultimate check on government if all else fails (peaceful civil resistance doesn’t work, military turns against the people, etc…).

    But otherwise, violence should always be a last resort for a multitude of reasons:

    1) It adds fuel to the fire for the government who will point to the resistance movement as terrorists, extremists, etc…the Soviet Union did this to resistance movements, the Assad regime in Syria has done it to the resistance there, Mubarak’s regime tried to incite violence against the protesters for this reason in Egypt, etc…

    2) If there are people on the fence in the country, not sure if they side with the government or side with the resistance, if the resistance is perceived as violent, it can lead to them siding with the government. This is important if the situation is like what we saw with Iran when the people there were protesting.

    3) Violent resistance tends to lead to a dictatorship taking over. We may think the U.S. government has become tyrannical in certain ways, but it is nothing like the kind of tyranny that could take control if people really truly overthrew the government. That is how people like Napoleon, Hitler, Mussolini, Putin, and others came to power, amid social chaos where people are so sick of the chaos and violence that some slick guy just comes in and says, “Give me power and I’ll create peace, stability, and bring glory to our nation again).”

    Look at China. It has an authoritarian government. But that authoritarian government is structured to prevent another Mao from taking over, because of how he utterly devastated China. Now if the Chinese people were to engage in the violent replacement/overthrow of their current government, it is much more likely that another Mao might end up taking control then a liberal democracy forming. The Chinese people would be much MUCH better suited to engage in peaceful civil resistance against their government if they truly desire liberal democracy, not violent resistance.

    4) Violence also tends to lead to just random mass slaughter. It is difficult with passions running so high as they are during such a resistance to have controlled violence. When one British soldier fired on a crowd out of fear in the colonies, it was propagandized by people like Paul Revere who printed up pictures of a large number of trained British soldiers firing into a crowd of civilians and made out as if this was what had actually happened. Naturally, people wanted the British soldiers hung.

    But there was a 29 year-old lawyer at the time, named John Adams (who we know) who said that no, these men have to be given a proper trial. So he offered to represent all the British soldiers pro-bono. Some he got acquitted and others reduced sentences. I believe none were hanged. The only reason he was able to get away with that though is because of how respected a person he was amongst the people.

    But what is the likelihood that in a modern violent resistance, that we would have such men leading it? Which leads to…

    5) During the Revolutionary War, we had one of the greatest groups of brilliant men leading the formation of our new country in human history. And that revolution was a bit different, because we weren’t trying to overthrow the English government. We were just trying to throw off their control of us. England itself remained intact.

    The kind of revolution that would likely form today would probably be more akin to the French Revolution, where the country descends into total chaos and violence and borderline destroys itself until a dictator takes control. Remember, historically, most revolutions FAIL. Miserably. They lead to extreme brutality, violence, slaughter, poverty, and tyranny in the end. And most of the time, when a representative system of government breaks down, it leads to despotism and terror.

    • TO: Kyle, et al.
      RE: Sorry…..BUT….

      The kind of revolution that would likely form today would probably be more akin to the French Revolution, where the country descends into total chaos and violence and borderline destroys itself until a dictator takes control. Remember, historically, most revolutions FAIL. Miserably. They lead to extreme brutality, violence, slaughter, poverty, and tyranny in the end. And most of the time, when a representative system of government breaks down, it leads to despotism and terror. — Kyle

      The French Revolution is a bad analogy.

      US were better educated than the French peasants who slaughtered their ‘nobility’ in a fit of revenge—built up over centuries of abuse—after seizing power.

      Most people thinking of revolution only want to restore the Constitution of the United States as it was meant to be.

      Regards,

      Chuck(le)
      [Our safety, our liberty, depends upon preserving the Constitution of the United States as our fathers made it inviolate. The people of the United States are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution. — Abraham Lincoln]

      • What makes them the authority regarding how the Constitution was “meant to be” though? And where does it make sense to start a civil war all in an attempt to try to “restore” the Constitution when it most likely would just lead to despotism? You want to restore the Constitution as you see it, get a large enough movement and focus on getting the government elected that we want at all levels who will appoint constructivist justices to the courts. That is the beauty of our current system, that we can change the government.

        • Kyle thinks we can just VOTE in a whole new government…. lol
          There comes a point when the infection is to much to bare and the arm must be removed to save the body. Should we wait until the infection is so great that the body may still not survive even though the infected arm has been removed, or do we act quickly so that we may yet save the body?

          That being said, The real answer is that ALL things are possible IN Christ Jesus. If only the nation would turn once more to seek Him…. I’m afraid anything other than this is only a Judgment of God, carried out by the hands of men.
          2Chronicles7:14
          Then if my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land.

        • TO: Rich Grise
          RE: Too Funny….

          ….as you’re part of the problem.

          Regards,

          Chuck(le)
          [The Truth will out…..]

      • I didn’t say anything about the establishment of a Theocracy… Nor would my scripture reference support the idea. Rather I feel this Nation, as a whole, has turned from God. Believe it or not This country was FOUNDED on Godly principles and DEDICATED to God. I’m just saying we need to get back to our roots.. back to our God.. only then will this nation be once again blessed.

        • TO: N.Stiles22 & Kyle
          RE: These Characters

          Don’t sweat them. Just be aware that their ilk will twist whatever you or I or anyone else they dislike, to whatever they please to support their nefarious purposes.

          It’s the nature of ‘evil’ to do such.

          Regards,

          Chuck(le)
          [Be Prepared…..]

  36. My 73 year old Democrat liberal (so am I) Father just went through a class and got his CWP. His reason? Something’s about to happen in this country!!

  37. Interesting comments and thoughts in this thread. A lot to digest.

    My only input: I sure hope civil war and armed insurrection isn’t inevitable. The last American Civil War, no matter how you choose to define it as a conflict, was destructive and many Americans lost their lives at the hands of other Americans. Families split asunder, cities burned, lives lost. We may not agree with the political / religious beliefs of our neighbors (or neighboring states), but some of you folks seem waaaaaaaaaay too casual about the thought of open, armed conflict.

    God forbid, it never happens.

    Let’s not turn our republic into another Syria or Iraq. If you honestly believe in the unique goodness of these United States of America, I hope that we find a way to protect our rights AND promote our cause without bloodshed. I’m not saying we have to roll over, that we can’t protest, that we can’t be politically active, that we can’t be civilly disobedient, etc. – but I don’t thing we’ve hit the point of “lock and load and aim your irons” at your fellow Americans yet.

    • G, “fellow Americans”. If there is another civil war it won’t be American verses American. It will be those that wish to preserve the Constitution against those who wish to destroy it. Its been said there are four boxes: the ballot box, the soap box, the jury box, and the cartridge box, that can be used to resolve conflict in our country. Well the government ignores the ballot box, seeks to control the soap box, has perverted the jury box, and is working to confiscate the cartridge box. Tell me I’m wrong. Tell me how this has a good ending. The only way this doesn’t go bad is if enough of the government agents reading this are able to talk sense to their masters. Trouble is I’m afraid they’re the most brain washed of the bunch.

  38. Somtimes I feel like I’m seeing “1984,” “Animal Farm,” “The Marching Morons,” and “Invasion of the Body Snatchers” (except in this case it would be ‘mind snatchers’) all happening simultaneously.

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