Regular readers will recall TTAG’s previous post about the Pittsburgh Po-Po’s “investigation” into whether their .40 caliber pistols had enough “stopping power” for local law enforcement officers intent on saving their asses protecting and serving the city’s taxpayers. Back in April, the City of Bridges’ police department responded to two incidents where bad guys refused to fall down dead after being shot by embarking on some comparison testing—to see if they needed to switch to .45 caliber firearms. Yesterday, they tested a “new gun.” And the survey says . . .

According to Deputy Chief Paul Donaldson, the FBI Ballistic Research Facility concluded that the ammo “is consistent with (its) expectations of this cartridge.”

I so expected them to say that. Hang on; did the Pittsburgh Police ignore the 4,432 websites providing reliable data on handgun stopping power and pay taxpayer money to the FBI to conduct ballistic tests on a .45 caliber Glock?

Of course not! That would be a waste of resources. wpxi.com gives us additional insight into the Pittsburgh police’s cost-effective thinking on the matter and its rigorous scientific testing regime:

Officers tested a .45-caliber Glock on Monday, and union members told Target 11 investigator Rick Earle that they were pleased with the gun.

Eric Engelhardt said that the .45-caliber has “a little less recoil, so it actually might improve officers’ shot placement.”

Union officials told Earle they want to recommend that officers have their choice of which gun to use.

“If officers believe that they need a little bit more firepower, that they’d feel safer with a .45, that should be their option,” said Engelhardt.

Another round of testing will take place in June before recommendations are sent to the chief, who will have the final say.

In the interests of expediency and efficiency, why can’t some gun manufacturer just ply the Chief and his union pals with hookers and blow, sell ’em a bunch of .45s (the police not the hookers) and be done with it? Just sayin’ . . .

[h/t tudbb]

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116 Responses to Pittsburgh Police [Not Shown] Continue .40 vs. .45 Caliber Charade

  1. I dont get why departments make you choose one caliber and one brand. Every shooter has a perfect gun for them. I also dont get why the LEO community is so gung ho over DAO guns. Let the officers field what they shoot well with. If they want a 44 mag wheel gun let em use it. If they want a 380 mid sized like a PPK let em use it.

    • Pond scum attorneys are why larger police agencies carry DAO pistols.When bad guys get sent to the hospital it means no money for the relatives,so they call an attorney who then files a wrongful death suit with the city.With a DAO pistol the lowlife attorneys cannot claim a hair trigger resulted in the negligent death of their clients .

    • Because police departments like the power of being able to deliver a large contract to a manufacturer. Manufacturerers lobby heavily for the right to be anointed.

      I agree, though, LEO should be able to pick. I wonder if the union would endorse that – it would probably expose a rift between what the members would support and the asshats in charge of the union.

    • If they want an AR let them…. Opps already done.

      .40 was developed for the copchicks. Gotta have 100lb (and 250lb) girls in the PD (and FD and Army). Not fair to keep out those who can’t do the job.

      • I gotta agree………………..

        When S&W brought the 40 out a whole bunch of us wondered, “well it’s just like a .45acp, but lighter and wussified, so WTF”?

        Why would you ever want less bullet mass and less cross-sectional density?

        Large diameter, heavy bullets have shut down a shit-load of dangerous (the kind that can eat you or stomp you to death) African game, so shouldn’t the same hold true for 200 pound-ish thin skinned, but no less dangerous “game”?

        • 1. No the .40 isn’t a light .45, it was born out of the FBI wanting a round with similar ballistics to the 10mm with less recoil.

          2. Because you can carry more ammunition.

          3. No. Remember “Stopping Power” is by and large meaningless bullshit. Again, it’s essentially meaningless. You (and everyone who has firearms for self defense) really should go read the FBI’s manual on wounding and incapacitation. The TLDR of it is this.

          Stopping Power is essentially meaningless. To stop with a single shot you have to sever the spine, brainstem or destroy the cranial cavity. By an large people who die of gunshot wounds bleed to death. Even a direct hit on the heart or aorta or other large vascular structure still can give a adreniline rushed attacker a good 15-25 seconds until their BP or O2 sats drop to the point where they pass out.

          Remember, even a 45 doesn’t carry enough energy to knock a adult off their feet, the physics aren’t there. People fall down when they are shot because of a: pain, or b: that’s what media has trained them to do.

          A standard pressure 230 grain .45 hits with about 415ft/lbs of force. A 165 grain .40 that moves faster than the .45 hits with 485ft/lbs of force.

        • You’re correct, “stopping power” is a subjective measurement and shot placement is critical.

          The problem is as you stated, they took the 10mm as designed and then downloaded it to .45 acp ballistics and then stuffed it in a short case so it work in 9×19 length magazines. So, in essence, you have a wide body pistol with less magazine capacity than a 9mm, but marginally more power.

          The 125 grn JHP/JSP .357 mag still has the best “real world” stopping power results at over 85% one shot stops, with the .45 acp just slightly behind.

          If this data is to be trusted, then why not switch to .38 Super or 9×23. You can get 147 grn JHP easily up to 1350 fps and get the same capacity as a typical double stack 9×19.

          JMHO – But in the end, to each his own. I know I can produce center-mass hits on demand with any of the aforementioned cartridges, but I prefer big heavy vs. lighter/faster……….

        • Amatuers talk stopping power; professionals talk lethality.

          Lethality is the probability that an untreated wound in location x is fatal by time T.

          According to the data found in the Joint Munitions Effectivemess Manual the 45 caliiber round is significanly more lethal than a 9mm. The last ime I had access to the JEMS there was no 40 caliber data and I don’t know it it now have data for it. However, the supporting documentation for the data keys in on mass as the most important factor in handgun round lethality was projectile mass and not velocity. At handgun velocities bigger projectiles transmit their energy more effectively to the target causing more primary and secondary damage. It is commonly assumed that the supersonic velocity for the 9mm and 40 cal makes them more lethal. This is a misconception since no pistol or even rifle round is traveling at supersonic speed through the body. Since we are made up mostly of water the speed of sound in the human body is in excess of 5000fps. All rounds are subsonic as they pass through the body. The shock wave is behind the projectile and that is what causes the secondary damage. Of the three rounds under discussion, the 45 has the largest associated shock wave.

        • Again my post got swallowed.

          Ted:

          I have read the FBI study and I can tell you from experience that the study was designed to get a particualr result. When they wanted the 9mm, their study said 9mm was best. When they wanted 40 their study validated that answer. If they decide to go to the 45 they will cite JMEM. The lethality index in the JMEM is clean. It was done after the decision for the M-9 was made. The Army didn’t pretend that the 9mm was more lethal than the 45.

        • You don’t want to kill. You want to incapacitate (as quickly as possible). I am a Fuller Index man, myself. You want 12-14 inches of penetration though a man wearing heavy clothing (9-10, minimum) with a bullet (bigger cross sectional diameter, the better) that expands as much as possible while staying in one piece and not quite or barely coming out the backside of the perps body (permanent wound cavity).
          You also want as much kinetic energy as possible to be dumped into the body which causes a temporary stretch cavity (that can turn permanent with rifle rounds). Why does the 357 kick ass with a light bullet? When passing through a nerve plexus, the stretching of the nerve membranes disrupts their potential to stretch and causes a temporary stunning effect (like how a boxer knocks a dude out with a kidney punch). A pressure wave temporarily stunning (incapacitating) a bad guy from a 135-165 grain 40s&w with 500lbs of energy is a good reason for the calibers popularity. Many lighter 45 rounds in the +p realm can do even better, though the guns are generally bigger and/or the capacity is lower. +p 9mm does pretty good as well.

        • > Why would you ever want less bullet mass and less cross-sectional density?

          Because the bullet mass and less cross-sectional density is largely irrelevant?

          The 10mm was adopted because the FBI couldn’t admit that the loss of life in the Miami shootout in the 1980s was because of crappy training, crappy tactics, and bad judgement.

          The 40S&W was adopted because of pure marketing genius. Using the 40S&W they convinced police departments around the country to buy all new guns to fit the new round without having to design any new guns. Just take the 9mm designs and put in a barrel for a slightly larger round and then convince everybody to buy them. It was a bonanza.

          If you got something that needs to be done and you can’t get it done with a 9mm or .45 then you are better off with a rifle.

        • Anybody that thinks a army documentation, such as JMEM, is somehow “less bias towards a pre-determined conclusion” than a civilian documentation, needs his/her head examined.

          If the army really had strong sentiments towards the 45 ACPs effectiveness, then it would be issued service-wide.

          Oh wait, they dont because the caliber debate between handguns is BULLSHIT. a waste of time.

    • When a PO is involved in a shooting and one officer runs out of ammo, a fellow officer can hand them one of their extra magazines to remain in the fight.

      • Anyone who believes police officers will and should trade magazines to each other to “stay in the fight” needs his or her head examined. It’s not going to happen.

    • Probably to:
      – Simplify their ammo procurement
      – Simplify finding replacement/interchangeable parts
      – Simplify their accessory needs (holsters, magazines, attachments, etc)
      – Simplify training for their armorer

      • I don’t necessarily agree with the departments’ judgments about DAO, but the answers to JSIII’s other questions are fairly obvious.

        It is my understanding that the Army specifies that all rucksacks be packed the same (might be dated info, that was 20 yrs ago) so that if you were out of commission and one of your buddies needed something from your ruck they would be able to find it. Why on earth would an organization want different mags/ammo for everyone?

        • I understand why a military is the way it is, I can even understand to some extent why a huge police force lik the LAPD, NYPD have to standardize.
          Yet look at the Chicago PD, you still have three or four choices of manufacturer. Only restrictions if I remember right DAO and require officers in their first year to use a 9MM. Beyond that I believe they can have 9MM, 40 S&W or 45 ACP.

          In regards to the whole throwing a magazine to your buddy I am not sure how much utility that has in the real world.

          In most prolonged shootout situations officers who have them are going to their rifles(mostly M-4/M-16/AR-15 variants) or shotguns, both of which use a common ammo type/magazine.

      • The article didn’t say if it was .45ACP or .45GAP? I doubt going with .45GAP would simplify ammo procurement..

    • I would guess the same reason the military does it. “If you die first, we’re splitting up your gear.” If I go Winchester and you’re already out of the fight, I want to be able to pull a mag from your belt and keep fighting.

      One man’s opinion.

    • Pittsburgh police are issued Glocks, so it’s not *really* a DAO handgun.

      Glock markets them as DAO because police administrators in the 80s and 90s couldn’t wrap their head around the idea that a striker-fired handgun can’t really be compared to a hammer-fired SAO or DAO handgun. So they just called it DAO.

      Nowadays we just call handguns like Glocks and M&Ps and XDs “striker fired”.

      As for the issue of not allowing officers choose their own handgun, there’s something to be said for being able to grab a spare mag from the officer next to you and know that it’s going to work in your firearm. Plus all of the other arguments in favor of standardization.

    • “I dont get why departments make you choose one caliber and one brand”

      the same reason the military does: LOGISTICS.

      and I agree 100% with that.

    • It’s called logistics. Personal choice of purchased sidearms may be practical for a small-town department. But, can you imagine the logistical nightmare of training as well as lack of ammo and magazine commonality in a large metropolitan police department? As an aside, I think a 380 has no place in a police duty holster! Even in its best loadings it’s marginal at best.

  2. Stopping power,heh.
    Recoil,heh.
    Size of handgun bullet does not make it man stopper! Ammo Yoda says , greatness is found in proficiency,and stopping power is defined by practice it is!

  3. Philadelphia PD just started allowing it’s officers to carry a .45 pistol if they so choose to. All they have to do is qualify with it. My dad is an retired Philly cop and remembers how shocked him and alot of other officers were when the Phila. PD finally decided to switch from S&W Model 10s to Glock 17s back in 1986. He thought that would never happen, and he also thought that Phila. PD would also never let officers carry a .45.

    • 1) 22LR
      2) 22LR
      3) 22LR

      Lol kidding aside, that’s why I personally stick with 9mm armed with Ranger T ammo.

      • Well, I’d rather be missed by a .45 than hit by a .22 🙂

        That having been said, “stopping power” is obviously a legitimate issue, but the question is: how much of an issue? While I don’t advocate using a .22 for self-defense (although it’s certainly better than nothing), I think anything at least as powerful as a .380 is perfectly fine for most situations.

        And in any case, if you want true one shot stopping power you need a rifle or a shotgun.

      • You may be joking, but it’s true. I am so tired of “shot placement” talks.

        I knew a guy that was shot in the head with a .22 bullet that was still pretty well lodged in his skull.

        There are a few places where shooting is effective with any caliber: eyes; nose; ears; mouth. All very difficult to hit in a stressful shooting situation. But for those that only consider shot placement, good luck with that.

        • As far as I know, when people are speaking of shot placement they’re talking about hitting the center of mass…not shooting someone’s eyes out.

        • Doesn’t .22 kill more people than any other round a year? I think I remember reading that somewhere.

        • I’m sure it’s quite effective for suicides, which are the leading cause of gun deaths.

        • “As far as I know, when people are speaking of shot placement they’re talking about hitting the center of mass…not shooting someone’s eyes out.”

          That is exactly what I am saying. A .22 to the gut is not going to be all that effective. I said “There are a few places where shooting is effective with any caliber” as in “regardless of the caliber used”. Otherwise, caliber can make a difference.

        • A .22 to the gut…agreed.

          On the other hand, if one were to be shot in the exact same spot with a 9mm, a .40, or a .45, I suspect the results would be largely the same.

        • No it wouldn’t have the same effect. The larger calibers would cause more damage and a higher rate of blood loss. You would have to get to surgery faster and the probability of full recovery would be lower.

        • “The larger calibers would cause more damage and a higher rate of blood loss.”

          That is very true, which is why pistols vs long guns is not a controversial subject.

          In regards to common pistol calibers, however, you would be correct if one specific caliber had a significantly larger wound channel than others (it doesnt).

          For those bitching about “shot placement”: GET OVER IT. Yes, that actually means your fat, happy ass will have to get out and train versus “rising to the occasion” and depending on your super wunder pistol caliber to pick up the slack for your lack of proficiency. “more forgiving” is the most idiotic argument i have ever seen when it comes to common pistol calibers.

  4. I wonder what 40 ammo they were shooting. Maybe they just need a different brand. I am a fan of Hornady’s critical defense bullets. Their rubber plug almost guarantees expansion.

    I think this just more gun/caliber blaming for poor shooting.

  5. Wow – so they figured out a 21 has less recoil than a 22? I’ve known this little fact since 1993.

  6. This is not about the calibre. It is about money. If the PD has 2 million in the budget and does not spend all that money then next year they will get 2 million less. I saw this same logic in the military when it came to supplies, uniforms, etc. Oh Yes, They will say it is about the bullets and stopping power but it is all about the budget.

  7. If government employees must be armed, six shot .38s are more than enough. Break open single shot 12 gauge for when they need more.

  8. Given today’s (often unavailable) ammunition, if you can put a 9mm, .40 S&W, or .45 ACP hollow point where it needs to go, it will do what you need it to do. Any of those three stand a chance of needing one or two rounds to follow along behind.

    The key isn’t changing the caliber. The key is learning to place that caliber bullet where you want it. And then practicing regularly to maintain the skill.

  9. I swear I just heard this….

    Calling John Moses Browning ! Calling John Moses Browning ! Please pick up on line two. Urgent call for John Moses Browning !

  10. So, I watch the video. Then when it ends, you see a grid of similar videos that you can click on to watch.
    OMG, bottom right, Gabby Franco…..
    She does to the back side of a pair of jeans that Michelangelo did to the Sistine Chapel.
    Robert, I think you may have missed slipping a photo link in your article.
    Low testosterone perhaps?

  11. Hymmmmmn, “Herr Gastron Glock”,the Plastics Mogul, who redesigned, the 9mm Gun, to conform with his, plastic, housing for the gun; is Now, a “Marketing Genius!…. [Thanks to the American Police Force, ect.!…]. Back in the 1970’s, he came out with this Gun, selling it to the Austrian army!… Than, came across the “Pond”, Marketing it to the American Police!…[Claiming, they were “Out-Gunned, by the “Bad-Guys”, and he had a reasonable alternative, if they all bought his guns! Hence, they dropped their .38’s, and switched to his new design, “Ultimate Gun”!… later, he bought back all the 9mm’s, [which he resold!], selling them, the .40 calibers!… Now, he doing this with the .40 caliber, to be replaced by the, .45’s!… “Wake Up, America”!… Springfield Arms”, an American company, Who has been making Guns for the United States, since the time of George Washington; has a far Superior Gun!… And, “Is” American Made!… Having both, makes of guns, i’ve personally tried 1, against the other!…[ie.] My 9mm Glock, [chambering 115 grain, & 125 grain Vs. my Springfield, XD .45, chambering 230 grain.]. shooting 500 rounds, between the 2, i Honestly, noticed such a small difference in recoil, i was “Floored”, And, the “Springfield”, Shot Better, and was more Accurate!…
    If, at All, Skeptical, [or just not believing this!] try it yourself!… I’ve Personally proved my point, to 3 different, “Hard – Core”, Glock Enthusiasts, “Police Officers”!…Now, have Switched to “Springfields”!… “BUY AMERICAN”!… Why?… because it’s Better!…

    • Um, Springfield just imports the XD models from Croatia. Says so right on the gun. Pretty sure that was pointed out to you the last time you were around.

    • Has there been a change when I wasn’t looking? I too have an XD .45, and t’s a mighty fine pistol, but it’s made in Croatia.

    • The Enter key lets you make new paragraphs when you change trains of thought.

      The “.” key lets you end thoughts, and should not always be used in triplets.

      The Shift key lets you capitalize proper nouns, but should not be used to capitalize common nouns.

      “Quotes” around text generally indicates sarcasm, or derisiveness. Use them sparingly, and carefully.

      For the love of god, please spare us from these walls o’ text.

      • You forgot that “just because you have to stop and think after each word to figure out what the next one is going to be, that does not mean you have to put a comma after each word to indicate that mental pause to the reader.”

    • Not only that, the current Springfield is not the same company as the one around in George’s day–that one folded many years ago. The current company is related in name only. Some of their 1911s are made with Brazilian manufactured parts assembled in the US, while the high end models are all US manufacture. I don’t know where they build the M1A.

      • Springfield Armory was not a “company.” It was a government arsenal just like Harpers Ferry and Rock Island. The Springfield Armory was closed when the government decided to privatize it’s firearms development process. Essentially the Armalite/Colt M-16 ended direct government involvement in small arms development and production.

  12. Everyone’s different. And shot placement is most important. Whoever can drive nails accurately with whichever caliber they can, THAT’s what they should use. Unfortunately for bureaucacies/organizations, everything has to be the same for everyone.

    • You get the Howard Cosell firm grasp of the obvious award for this observation but the concept of the right shot placement is kind of a squishy thing and not independent of caliber. I can bring down a 150lb doe with a 22lr with the right shot placement except good shot placement with a 30-06 is bit more forgiving. Same thing with a handgun round. Good shot placement with a 380 is much tighter than for a 500 S&W. (you get a more personal reesponse due to the snuffing of my original post by the spam filiter)

      • your beating on a straw man

        nobody is arguing about 500 S&W vs a 380.

        Shot placement, being a tactical mindset, is more important than specific caliber (within a reasonable ballpark), which is a gear-oriented mindset.

        Your bigger bullets are not without consequences. They require more training, which equates to more time, when that time could be better spent on a similar caliber with lower recoil that can be easier to train with in the long run. It can also be better spent on force-on-force training, proficiency with long guns (which are the real step up in terms of effectiveness), etc etc.

  13. The Pittsburgh Police department is apparently awash in cash.

    I was there last week and they had uniformed, armed, police officers working as crossing guards. Not for construction or anything, just walking into the cross walk to stop traffic so people could cross the street.

    The same job kids volunteered to do in middle school.

    • Yeah, I saw this right across from my office in the Strip. The officer was too busy texting to notice traffic…

  14. I have solution to all of their stopping power issues. It is called 10mm. They even get more ammo per mag in Glocks than .40 and .45ACP.

    • Yeah, the 10mm will kill the bad guy, then plow through the liquor store wall behind him, fly across the street, through a pair of street signs, and kill a busload of people on the other side.

      Exaggerating? A little. But seriously, I know guys who use 10mm Glocks for black bear hunting. The penetration of that round is incredible, but maybe a little too much for these police department’s 6ish% hit rate.

      • This can be mitigated by careful ammunition selection.

        There is full-power 10mm ammunition available with 135, 150, 155, and 165gr bullets, which do not seem to penetrate excessively in soft tissue:

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkUm7iegNbM
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9W_ZF0-B_4
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FR14jBsZpWk

        Even fullpower, full-tilt-boogie 10mm with a 200gr hollowpoint bullet doesn’t appear to be all that bad, penetrating only 16″ of calibrated ballistic medium, well within the 12″-18″ range that the FBI tells us they consider optimum:

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFUAmIgR918

        The higher velocity and kinetic energy may give the 10mm somewhat more ability to defeat some forms of light cover compared to other service handgun calibers. I consider this a bonus, rather than a negative.

        • thats all fine and dandy, but with the additional expense (LOL…expense) of 10mm, you can spend that money on training and ammunition for existing big three caliber handguns (9mm, 40, 45).

          caliber fans always miss this point, despite it being the most critical point out of every discussion.

          Its a example of being gear-oriented rather than tactical mindset-oriented.

  15. If the forty can’t take them out then teach those fat ass doughnut suckers to shoot right

  16. Caliber matters and nearly every hand gun round lacks the power to knock a determined 200 lb man down for good with one hit unless it is a head/neck shot. 40 S&W , aka, 40 short & wimpy is no different. It exists only because too many “agents” complained about the real semi-auto hand gun man dropper, the 10 mm. If I was in the business of stopping any animal at 25 yards or less and didn’t have my shot gun with slugs shouldered, I would want my Glock 29. As for hookers and blow, read the book, “Glock”. How Glock arrived on the scene with such wide acceptance has as much to do with the Gold Club VIP room as performance.

    • The joke is that police need larger calibers to make up for poor marksmanship. The punchline is that they need poor marksmanship to make up for poor target identification.

  17. Any more complaining by the popo and I say standardize their sidearm to a 45 colt single action western six shooter revolver. They can also carry a bowie knife as back-up.

    • If I had my druthers and I could carry in the open while dressed in a snazzy uniform, swilling coffee and snarfing donuts on the taxpayer’s dime, I’d have no complaint about packing a modern SAA – like the Ruger single actions.

      I’d have even less complaint about packing a SAA in .45 LC, as long as I could buy or load cartridges to my spec – which would be a whole lot hotter than most cowboy action shooters use. The .45 LC can be loaded in a modern SAA clone (ie, the Rugers) that makes everything else available in handguns (including the .44 Mag and 10mm auto) look like a plinking round.

      • Would that be practical if you were to engage with a shooter(s) ie criminals armed with semi-auto high capacity pistols?

        • It would if you’re capable of hitting your target with less than 40+ shots.

  18. When you mess with God’s plan (Orig 10mm) and reduce it, you get what you get.Orig 10 was fine and I carry it everyday and practice alot,it’s the orig sauce.A 170 gr JHP at 1300 and around 638 ft lbs would be ample,esp thru a firefight that needed to get thru barriers..45,not so much with barriers.Law enforcement needs that.180 jhp at 1300 is fine.Heck,sig 357 have tremendous zip and agencys still carry.10mm can be loaded in 12 load settings,from mild to wild.over penetration is bunk.

    • 10mm? I don’t see the need. Cops seem to be quite capable of killing the family’s Nova Scotia Duck Tolling Retriever with the .40s they’re using now.

      • MDC ignores 100 years of the 1911 pistol and the fact .45 ACP worked through two World Wars, Korea, Viet Nam and other conflicts.

        • the M1 garand “worked” also. it worked stupendously well. that doesn’t make it the best choice for 21st century warfare however.

    • I do not know anything about God’s Plan but it is universally known that God’s Pistol is the 1911 delivered to us via John Moses Browning.

  19. I have been through this issue in the 80’s and the 90′. All hail the FBI (*******). I see no real use of replacing the 45ACP with 40S&W

  20. Hold on.I carry a .45 as well,not interested in caliber wars.Just saying the orig intent was reduced and should of not been.I don’t want to get hit with a supper soaker let alone a bullet. There is a misconception of over penetration with a 10mm.Not the case.I can carry a 165 at 1400 fps that will pass the FBI protocol 4 layers of denim into Bal Gel and get 16″ of penetration with energy dump at 700 ftlb’s.The 10 hits hard,shoots flat.Now a 200 gr 10,those are hunting loads.

  21. I have a solution. Up the standards of hiring practices for police officers by only hiring ones that can actually shoot and hit the bullseye, or get a decent grouping close to one. Then issue .357 mag revolvers. Better round than .40 or .45 by far.

  22. more f*ckhattery with acquisition and budget rather than increasing effectiveness.

    you guys dont realize this is about money (spending it) and not about making better police officers.

    the line between 9mm and 45 is very thin. end of story. end of discussion.

    the additional time and money spent on upgrading to another caliber and learning how to use 10mm (for you 10mm monkeys out there) could be used *gasps* for training and ammunition for existing handguns and….(drumroll) LONG GUNS.

  23. The way I see it is the Popo have so much BS hooked on to them already, gun mace, batton, tazer, cuffs, extra mags, flashlight, knife, cell phone, and god knows what else, I don’t think they can even use there seat belt, at least the heavy donut munchers cant, why not make them carry two or even three guns a 9mm, 40, and 45, they would look no more stupid than they do now? then they could use what the situation at the time called for, …..I know this is dumb, but seriously a 10mm would be my last choice, some cops can’t hit anything with a G-17 with little or no recoil, so what are they going to do with something that really gives them a kick in the ass, honestly most would have a tough time just doing reg qualifying shooting, the 40 is a comprimize, a good one yes but still a comprimize, I know it would never happen but I say let them carry whatever they can shoot the best

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