“A Wyoming sheriff’s deputy who detained a combat veteran in handcuffs for openly carrying a pistol offered to let him go if he agreed to let another deputy draw his weapon and shoot if the veteran made any sudden moves while driving away, court records show.”   Kinda took me a while to figure that one out too. No wait. I still don’t get it; it sounds like the set-up to a dirty joke. Continuing our inadvertent LEO theme, here’s some fresh grist for that mill . . .

Bassett said in the sworn statement that he had been trained to put his personal safety above the rights of a citizen openly carrying a handgun.

“We’re told every day, our safety is first,” he said. “We’re here to come home every night.”

One of our readers read the trib.com report and shook his proverbial head . . .

“As a native and current resident of the great state of Wyoming I’ve always enjoyed freedom to exercise my 2a rights. For years we’ve had shall issue ccw permitting after a training class and background check. We’ve also always honored open carry. Add to that the passing of constitutional carry this past year.

“Considering all of that I’m extremely disheartened to read about the the manner in which a combat vet was treated last month just a few miles down the road. I’d like to hear what the rest of the armed intelligentsia has to say.”

[h/t Hotrod20s]

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131 Responses to Wyoming Open Carry Case Cause for Concern?

  1. Cue all the LEOs on TTAG harping about anti-cop sentiment in..3..2..1..

    Oh, and to those LEOs, its jack wagons like these two bird brains that cause anti-cop sentiments to be born.

    • Oh, and to those LEOs, its jack wagons like these two bird brains that cause anti-cop sentiments to be born.

      And the LEO’s who see things like this and then instead of condemning these crooked cops, insult people who believe that the police should be held accountable for their actions.

      • For the record, I am one of “those LEOs” who defends law enforcement on this site to a certain extent. I don’t for one minute defend the actions of these two officers. I take my calling to the profession seriously. I also draw a sharp distinction between what I subjectively consider a good LEO and a bad LEO. A good LEO can generally be defined by:

        1) One who is called to the profession by a desire to help others and to protect both Society AND individuals.

        2) He/she derives fulfillment from number 1 just mentioned as opposed to a pay check or a sense of entitlement

        3) He/she sees themselves first and foremost as a guardian of civil rights rather than a special chosen one endowed with power (and eager to use it). It then follows that many are part of the pro-firearms community.

        4) Equal parts warrior and diplomat.

        Many of the LEO’s who wind up receiving negative attention on TTAG deserve to be here. That’s not what bothers me. What bothers me are the commentators that spew anti-LE rhetoric aimed at ALL law enforcement. Those guys (you know who you are) slander the entire profession oftentimes without a single distinction between the few bad and the countless good.

        Frankly, those are the same type of ignorant, mean-spirited and pig-headed generalizations that the anti-gun crowd make about us (the pro-gun community). The inability of some anti-LEOs here to recognize that hypocrisy speaks to their vapidity.

        As a devout firearms enthusiast and member of this community, it would be nice to come on here and not feel like a good portion of my fellow commentators hate me simply by virtue of my job. Food for thought.

        • Here’s the rub. It’s all fine and dandy to publicly condemn these clowns for being like this when they get publicly called out on it.

          Here’s why it falls rather flat on most people’s ears…

          The “good guys” on his squad/unit knew damn good and well what this clown was and nobody stopped him. He’s been pulling this kinda crap since his academy days and nobody stopped him.

          Maybe the LT doesn’t know, but the P-Sgt and everybody on else on the squad knows who drives drunk, who has a painkiller problem, who beats their spouse, who spends a bit too much time with those LE Explorer girls/boys, and who is just plain batsht crazy.

          Al these good cops out there do nothing about any of this stuff until it blows up to the point it can’t be handled in house anymore. Generally at the expense of non-cops.

          I realize how hard it is to actually do something, I know what can happen when you don’t fall in line with ‘the program’. But when good men do nothing, well, you know the rest.

        • Good waitresses, contractors, doctors, lawyers, saints, average joes etc. ad nauseam suffer from generalizations made of the jerks in every walk of life. Cops are not entitled to any special consideration, except they have to deal with more knuckleheads than most of us.

          We all have to deal with this shit. Not every day but it seems a common condition around the world. And if we make generalizations, based on jerk’s behavior no less, we are becoming same. Nor should we all pile on when one or other of us knuckleheads warrants a little correction.

          But should you find yourself constantly in the presence of numerous knuckleheads, you’re bound to hear plenty of their assumptions.

        • I totally agree with the statement you made that there are good cops and bad ones. My complaint is that I don’t know which one I’m going to be dealing with when I have an encounter with a police officer. Am I getting a calm rational person that fully understands the whole “serve and protect” thing? or am I dealing with Barney Fife? or worst case, am I dealing with a dog killing nitwit that will shoot me too if I sneeze?

          I have to deal with plumbers, carpenters, auto mechanics, store clerks, etc and some of them are good, and some of them are bad, but none of them is accidently gonna shoot me and then claim that they felt threatened because I twitched when I sneezed.

        • You’re a “warrior”, really? That makes the citizens your enemies… Is that how you view the people you’re supposed to serve? They’re enemies with whom you engage in battle? You think that mindset makes you one of the good guys?

          The use of that term takes us right back to the militarization of our nations police.

          You are not a Soldier, you’re a civilian public servant. You may have been a Soldier in another life, but the moment you dawn that badge you become a peace keeper, not a battle hardened killer.

          You might want to rethink your desire to be a warrior. If that’s the case, resign and join the Marines, that’s where warriors belong.

        • A good cop that looks the other way while the bad cop does his thing is no good cop at all. So your “countless” so-called good cops that are out there just got whittled down to a very finite number.

          I’d argue that finite number represents a fraction of a percent.

        • Hal, the problem is that most (if not all) of the otherwise “good” cops will lie and defend the bad cops merely because they’re “brothers in blue”. That in turn makes them bad cops because they’re aiding in the criminal behavior of the bad cops.

          Remember Officer Harless? His partner should’ve been fired with him because while his partner didn’t directly do anything wrong, he also didn’t try to stop Harless and would have stood by while Harless murdered an innocent man. But I’m sure you’ll proclaim that his partner was a “good” cop.

        • @ Stan:

          Cops SHOULD be warriors. Just because a police officer is a warrior doesn’t mean that citizens are their enemy. It means criminals are.

          Cops that aren’t warriors are the same cops that plug 9 civilians in New York trying to gun down 1 shooter.

          Cops NEED to be warriors.

        • I think the replies to my comment speak louder than my comment itself; there is a large, hateful anti-LE sentiment here. So far I have observed:

          1) There really are no good cops because we all just stick up for bad ones. Magically, if you believe this argument, all of the “good” cops are suddenly delegitimized. Talk about painting with a broad stroke. That’s called reaching. Racists use the same types of arguments and then attempt to “stretch” them over an entire ethnic group as a whole. Anti-gunners do the same thing to the people of the gun. Nice to see that you’re taking a page out of THEIR play-book. If there is a department out there that collectively covers up the actions of bad cops, then by all means that department should be singled out here and scolded publicly. The same for individual officers covering for individual officers. However, directing that argument towards LEOs as a whole is just a shabby excuse for reckless and indiscriminate hatred towards LE. It’s convenient that that argument can’t really be substantiated or quantified when applied to LEO’s as a whole. Much like liberals’ arguments. Again. Still. Just another generalization from a group of people who are willfully ignorant and CHOOSE to view LEOs as adversaries. I find it very amusing that folks who hate LEO’s and decry the adversarial attitude some LEO’s take towards the public are the same ones commenting here. Don’t get me wrong; there is NO excuse for a LEO viewing the general public with aggression or distrust. I hate that that rift exists. However, when a LEO visits this site and reads these comments, you’re only making that rift wider. For the record in my agency (and every agency/department I know of) you will be immediately sh*t canned for: lack of candor, failure to report, beating your wife, getting a DUI, etc. Which is as it should be.

          2) I’m a bad cop for seeing LEOs as one part warrior and one part diplomat. I like that Stan completely ignores the whole “diplomat” part. I guess that was just inconvenient to his argument. Yes, one part warrior. As already indicated by other comments, neglecting warrior skills like PT, shooting, tactics, combatives, etc puts both the LEO and the public at risk. And to clarify, the criminals are the enemy. According to Stan’s great logic leap, as a warrior I automatically view the public as the enemy. Get a grip.

          3) Michael B: you are absolutely correct. Some cops are enormous @ssholes to everyone they encounter and that type of guy deserves all the scorn, ridicule and hatred you can throw. Simply no excuse for that behavior.

          4) There are good cops… but I never know if I am going to encounter a good one or a bad one. Agreed. There are weapons-grade bad cops out there and I pray that NO ONE encounters them. Ideally they would all resign or get fired immediately. However, welcome to MY world as a LEO. 99% of the public are good people. But I never know when I am going to encounter the 1%. That doesn’t mean it is fair for me to mischaracterize the public as a whole because of the actions of a few bad apples. Perhaps the moral of the story is that both LEOs and non-LEOs should do the same thing: Greet everyone with friendliness and a smile and go from there. As for the bad cops, rest assured that the rest of us are as tired of their BS as you are. They disgust us and make us look bad. We ARE gunning for them and we drum them out whenever possible.

          5) The percentage of good cops that do the right thing and won’t stick up for bad cops is a fraction of a percent. Riiiiiiiiiiight. Because all us LEOs are just all too eager to get canned for failure to report and/or have broken moral compasses. Or not.

          Based on the replies to my comment, I can see that I am not going to change many minds at this time. Some of those who have decided to despise LEOs have already made up their minds and are stuck enough in that conviction that they are willing to advance questionable arguments to justify irrational hate and fear. However, I will continue to make efforts to bridge that gap over time through dialogue/mentorship/debate with both my colleagues and armed citizens alike. No amount of resistance, negativity, hate or ridicule on either side will ever get me to stray from that goal. I will have that discussion anytime, anywhere and with anyone. Period. In the meantime I will continue to safeguard civil rights, serve, protect and give the taxpayers the most for their money.

          Have a great weekend 🙂

    • Harping… Ok, you ready?

      These guys screwed up. They were either not trained, trained by idiots, or ignored their training. Take your pick, they all suck.

      I’m not going to say we should wait for more info, either. Based on the deputy’s statement, there’s nothing that could make it right. I wish the Marine the best of luck in his lawsuit, we had a few in neighboring cities a year before I was hired. Lawyer went around open carrying, was never drawn on, was never cuffed, but when he asked “am I free to go” and was told no, he went to court. He got rich, and everyone got training. Now we don’t screw that one up.

      • Hasdrubal, you seem like a really level-headed guy and I really liked your response to my post in that comment thread yesterday about police officers and gun owners. I’m curious about your background. How old are you? Are you college-educated? Are you a military veteran? Do you work for a big city, small city, county, or community?

        Also, what was your training like? I’ve never been through police academy but I know all about “verbal judo” they teach in a lot of them. Do they teach diplomacy in any of them and how one should act during a regular citizen encounter and a suspect encounter?

        It just seems to me like there are some cops out there that are just assholes to people who don’t deserve it. I can see being an asshole to homeboy who’s suspected of robbing a liquor store, but not random Marine that’s riding along minding his own business.

        I guess what I’m asking is: do they tell you to talk to normal people normally?

        What do you think should be done to help get rid of dirtbags like the two cops in this article?

        • Thank you for the kind words, first off. Without giving my whole life story, around 30 years old, four years Army after two years of college left me uninspired. Only one deployment to Iraq, and didn’t see as much there as some did. Work for a medium size city in Washington.

          Here they don’t teach the whole verbal judo thing at the academy, it’s offered as a class once in a while but not too many guys go. I don’t really know what they teach there, I get by just fine talking to people like they’re human beings until they stop acting like it. Some of the supervisors like it, some think I should be a little quicker with the cuffs once in a while.

          The academy training isn’t the solution or the problem, though. It’s the senior guys who are or can be both. A rookie coming out of the academy is clay to be molded in _someone’s_ image, unless the military already molded them. Give him to a senior officer who was trained back in “the old days,” and he will come out of field training thinking the same way. If the Chief says the senior man is wrong, the rookie will think the Chief is a bureaucrat and doesn’t know how things are really like on the street.

          I think this is what Seattle is having a problem with. Their use of force standards in principle are in line with the rest of the state, but they have a cadre of guys who want to act like it’s still the 70’s. Back when people who deserved a beating got one, and didn’t call a lawyer. People still deserve a beating quite often, but since we’re not the judge and the jury, we don’t give it out anymore.

          The old guys are performing according to their training, which is out of date. Remember, there was a time when K-9 units were used for crowd control by policy. The officers who were involved in the Rodney King incident performed according to their training. The problem is the old guys seem to be ignoring the new training, and telling the rookies to do it the old way.

          So, the best solution I see as a cop with only a few years on, is to appoint a Chief with as strong a character as you can find. Keep him in long enough to replace the rest of the chain of command as quickly as the union contract allows. Use him to write modern policy and replace all the field training officers who won’t teach the new methods.

          Once this happens, the new guys will be much more likely to act right. The culture will change and the bad apples will stand out so much that they will either get fired or quit. With a bad Chief, and bad field training, you get bad results on an organizational level, like “We’re told every day, our safety is first,” he said. “We’re here to come home every night.” At the expense of the public.

        • I’m curious as to who you have on the force that was trained in the 70’s, at all. A PO who was 21 in 1970 is in their mid 60s. Sure a few 60+ guys still toddle around to juice up the pension – doing courthouse duty, transport, and riding a desk.

          Most departments are not too hip on letting a 50 year old train – I can’t imagine the brass who lets a 60 year guy near a rookie.

          Truly curious about that.

        • 16V, sorry I didn’t do the math right. The point remains the same, it’s old school vs the new standards, and it’s not working. Who knows, it could be guys trained by guys trained in the 70’s, and it would still fail in the same manner.

        • Math error, happens, fair enough.

          I’m not interested in your dept any more than you are in revealing it. But, honestly curious about the your experience on “old/new” training.

          AFAIK from any source I’ve had, the “new” training is the same as it’s been for the last 20 years – except every year it gets ratcheted up another notch. It’s a riff on “command and control situation dominance” paramilitary model stuff that Gates started in the late 60s and really went widespread in the 80s-90s. That coupled with the never-ending drumbeat of “officer safety is all that matters”.

          I’m pushing 50, so to me diffusing a situation and talking someone down is the “old school” – what they were taught 50s/60s before the Gates metric took over as “new school”. Just because you see a gun (or think one is coming) doesn’t make it you automatically open fire. So if you’re trying to rationalize and deal with people in a civilized fashion (until they quit being civilized) that to me sounds “old school”. I’d love to think that’s becoming the “new school” again, but this is the first I’ve heard of it.

      • Hasdrubal,

        I live in the Tri-Cities and don’t know where you are in Washington exactly but it makes me feel good that if you are near me, I’m likely to have good police officers around. Thanks for that.

        As a concealed carry person, even though I’m legal I get nervous around a fair amount of Police because of what happened in Seattle lately and my experiences growing up. I actually had a lot of bad experiences on the west side of the state because cops didn’t know the laws and felt like being badge heavy on younger people.

        Still it’s nice to hear that some of the younger officers get it and hopefully, a lot more will soon.

  2. Actually, the officers involved showed great restraint. They didn’t shoot the GI and leave his body under a bridge. They didn’t shove a plunger handle up the man’s culo. Finally, they were honest about not giving a sh!t about anything but themselves. Now that’s what I call two honest cops.

    And they wonder why I don’t trust them.

  3. I have been held at gunpoint by a cop when there was the possibilty of a crime in progress but once the facts were sorted out the cop apologised and explained his reasons. I accepted that at face value because of the circumstances.

    But when it was over the several cops on scene at that point left their guns in their holsters as I walked away. They had establisheed i wasn’t the bad guy and it was over.

    I don’t understand the line of reasoning that the man did no wrong but we’re going to train a gun on him until he’s out of sight. Sounds weird.

  4. Im just grateful the cops didn’t ND their weapons and end up shooting all 9 bystanders in the State of Wyoming. The bar is low enough that I consider it a job well done when we can go an entire day WITHOUT a constable perforating the scenery by mistake.

    • I grew up in Wyoming and don’t live far from there now. You’d be more likely to have 9 antelope in one place than 9 bystanders. . .

      In fact, given how curious they can be, there may well have been at least that many watching the show.

        • I guess you were lucky to get a tasty one. I grew up in Wyoming and ate more wild game at home than domestic and on our list Antelope was dead last. Good jerky.

        • 1 antelope roast
          2 cups red wine
          2 garlic cloves, minced
          2 tbsp olive oil
          1 tbsp rosemary, crushed
          Salt and pepper, to taste

          Combine all ingredients in a medium roasting pan. Cover and allow to marinate overnight in refrigerator. Cook in a 350 degree oven until internal temperature is at least 170 degrees. Set roast aside to cool. Bring drippings to a boil and reduce by approx 1/3. Carve roast and serve with drippings spooned over.

          If you’re not concerned about fat, substitute bacon fat for the olive oil.

        • 2 cups red wine
          2 garlic cloves, minced

          Duh.

          Put 2 cups of red wine and 2 cloves of garlic (minced) on just about anything and it would be “good eating”.

  5. I stumbled across the recording he made of the encounter awhile back on YouTube and can’t seem to find it now but yeah it was a rather poor representation of my state

  6. I had a cop draw down on me because I was wearing a striped shirt just like a perp he was looking for, only difference was I was 12 YO. I guess that saved my life

  7. “We’re told every day, our safety is first,” he said. “We’re here to come home every night.”

    And that is why, to answer the question posed by yesterday’s article, free citizens and modern police can never get along.

  8. “Bassett said in the sworn statement that he had been trained to put his personal safety above the rights of a citizen.”
    ——
    Fixed.

    Dear LEO members of the Armed Intelligencia,
    Is is becoming clear, yet?

    Moonshine

    • yeah, I was volunteering with a big city fire department in NM, doing 24 hour shifts at the station with the paid firefighters; I was somewhat surprised at the constant focus of “your safety comes first” during the training process, I thought as a paramilitary orginization that risking ones life for our fellow citizens was part of the job; I’m wondering if this has always been the norm in the way fire and police train or if it is a new development; maybe some old timers can speak to this.

      • Yes the cop is, was and most likely always will be a jackass, but that being said the open carry crowd has a history of doing this to themselves.

        • “And to top it all off Wyoming has constitutional carry, so why would one need to conceal the piece?”
          ——
          See? It works that way, too.

        • You sound like the type of person who protests funerals. “Your son rolled his eyes at a cop who harassed him for being black? He deserved to be beaten to death!”

        • So people who choose to exercise a right are “doing it to themselves?” Just as many jackass gun owners as there are cops. Freedom is freedom. Freedom is not not doing something because others feel uncomfortable. Grow a set and live your life however the hell you want but don’t tell others how to live theirs!

  9. I think a Title 18, U.S.C., Section 242 – Deprivation of Rights Under Color of Law lawsuit is in order. The Deputy had no reasonable, articulable suspicion to stop the man in the first place. And then he threatened the man with deadly force if he tried to leave or “make any sudden moves”.

    See details here:
    http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/civilrights/federal-statutes/#section242

    Of particular interest in this case:
    “Punishment … if such acts include the use, attempted use, or threatened use of a dangerous weapon, explosives, or fire shall be fined or imprisoned up to ten years or both”

    • Oh excellent. I just started reading the link providing more details of the event and the veteran is indeed pursing a lawsuit against the deputy involved.

      • Wait, wasn’t it Sheriff’s Deputies who did this? Are Sheriffs unionized? Seems like small-time Barney Fifes like these should be pretty vulnerable to lawsuits without union backing. Also, how did these jackwagons get elected, and will this affect future elections? This may be a good one to follow.

        • You ask how these jackwagons get elected? Look at the jackwagon in the White House and the jackwagon GOP candidate. The answer to your question, we’re friggin’ stupid!

        • Sheriffs are elected, deputies hired by the public entity (usually a county). Most states have laws that require the state/county/city to defend and indemnify its employees who are sued for acts occurring within the course and scope of employment. About the only thing not indemnified is punitive damages.

  10. Once again police are attempting to maintain a monopoly on the use of force. After all, once citizens start carrying, they will begin to question why they need police at all.

  11. If some police knew laws better we would not have this problem. I had a cop the other day tell me suppressors are illegal in ga…. I tried to educate him on the subject but I dont know if he took my word because after all he is a police officer and I am a civvy. How am I supposed to know the law if he doesn’t. on another note, LEO’s need to ask themselves, what would andy griffith do? haha that is the the leo’s and civilians can bury the hatchet and get along.

  12. This really is the crux of the matter. When you train them that “nothing matters but my safety” and then constantly reinforce this everyday at work and in the media, how can we expect a different result?

    The job used to be heavy on training in non-lethal force and defusing armed scenarios. Sure there’s was a place for deadly force, but that’s after everything else fails. They aren’t trained that way anymore – it’s now “confrontational policing”. You are taught to yell like a Marine DI at the top of you lungs to get “compliance” and “master your situation”. Works fine on people who would have done what you wanted anyway. For every other scenario, it raises the pressure and the stakes. Making a bad situation worse.

    Now, the rules of engagement are draw first and fire the minute you see anything that makes you the least bit uncomfortable. As long as you say you were scared, you’re forgiven. If someone at the wrong address on a midnite no-knock reacts as any rational person would awakened to a home-invasion, you can shoot them too.

    The stats are incredibly clear on OIS – no matter how egregious, as long as they aren’t cuffed and face-down when you shoot them, on video, you’ll be back on the street in a week.

    The most painfully predictable part of this is that it will only get much, much worse. It’s a feedback loop.

    • Justin, I know you’re not like that.

      It’s not fair that all it takes is one “bully with a badge” to erase all the good that many LEO’s do, but it’s like this for all sides of the fence (LEO’s, Citizens and Bad Guys). And with ubiquitous cameras and the Internet, more and more stupidity on all sides will get exposed.

      I really wish I knew how to bridge this growing gap between us. Perhaps this is a good place to start.

    • I still say most cops most of the time are good guys with ethics and excellent professional judgment. It’s always the jackass that make’s it to the internet.

      I don’t like the us against them from either side. I though the good guys were on the same side.

  13. Hey, LONGtime reader, dont post all that much, but have to say I’m honestly kind of tired of all of the LEO bashing. After a seeming “truce” – or at least reasonable LEO representation over the past week or two by guest authors – it seems like it’s just getting worse. There are bad apples in any profession (LEOS, soldiers, doctors, nurses)- and I get the importance of calling them — the bad apples- out ,esp those entrusted to enforce the law, take care of our loved ones, etc..esp. when given special ‘priveledges” to do so by society….

    Honestly though, I believe the majority of these people are leaving their homes and families in the am to do a good thing, wondering what dirtball might do them in next.. (LEO’s, soldiers, healthcare professionals and many others)

    google “dash cam shooting” for hundreds/ thousands of examples.

    Can we have GJLEOOTD (good job leo of the day ) in addition to the multiple stories about the minority(majority here) of the KHLEOOTD – knuckle head leo of the day?

    “just sayin”- as you say.

    I consider myself a fairly mainstream middle of the road reader -pro 2a, own multiple guns, ccw, moderate/right leaning politically, family/home /kids etc.(NOT LEO in any way).

    BIG fan of the site, but kind of tired of the bashing.

    • +1

      If a bad cop needs bashing, then bash him, not the whole LE system.

      If it comes out that other LEOs are covering for the bad cop, THEN you can bash the whole department.

      • If it comes out that other LEOs are covering for the bad cop, THEN you can bash the whole department.

        When other LEOs are covering for the bad cop, it doesn’t come out.

  14. Hal,
    I applaud your dedication and hope that those that are anti-LEO take these words to heart. On the same note, I also hope that bungholes like these guys reassess and consider a new profession so that the LEO community is left only with those dedicated to helping their fellow man and upholding the law. Rather than those that deem themselves above it.

    • Agreed. The sooner these two are drummed out of their county the better. I work in a rural environment. If I took their view towards armed citizens I would be holding people at gunpoint every damn day. Ridiculous and wrong on several levels.

  15. I’m afraid my fellow jarhead was a knucklehead. One simple question: do you have any weapons. Cop didn’t ask to search, etc. OK, he didn’t consent to searches, that’s cool.. Answering the question is not consent to search. That’s the downside. And he got that wrong. Among many other things.
    My thinking is derived from Terry v. Ohio.
    Here’s another one: it’s retarded to argue with a cop on the side of the road. You may exercise your rights, yes, but no need to argue, serves no purpose. IMNSHO.

    • To be honest, as a long time OC’er, I have to agree, he should have said as a courtesy, if the gun was on the cops blind side, that he was carrying a weapon before he got off the bike;’ but then the cop crossed the line when he put him in handcuffs and then threatened to hold a drawn gun on him as he rode away for someone obviously not a threat.
      It was not a good representative example of an OC’er, but especially of the police I’ve encountered over the three years of OC.

    • elnonio, That attitude makes it easier for our rights to be trampled. It makes sense to ARGUE EVERY TIME until they get the point. They will gladly take every inch you give them.

      • Bit of a circular argument: it’s not a search if it’s in plain sight. But cop couldn’t see it because it was on the blind side. All the posturing about “I don’t consent to a search”, while a valid statement of his rights, did nothing to ease the cop’s mind. (And yes, unfortunately, people that argue constitutional rights at every occasion are starting to get a bad rep). So, when the next thing the cop sees is a gun, I bet his pucker factor went up.
        Like, WTF?!
        Anyway, I didn’t say don’t argue. I said don’t argue with the cop. Your best bet is to comply to the extent that you don’t abandon your rights (so, if asked to search, refuse, ask if you are free to leave repeatedly, and exercise your right to remain silent as much as possible, and to an attorney once it is evident to you that you are not free to leave.) Beyond that, the time for argument will come, but again, by the road side with an excited cop is NOT the time.

    • he has a right to privacy, and unless state law delcares that he has a duty to inform, he should not need to inform the officer of his weapon.

  16. “Bassett said in the sworn statement that he had been trained to put his personal safety above the rights of a citizen”
    End of statement.

  17. Why do some police officers act like jackasses to just about everybody? That’s a question for LEOs that post here. I honestly want to know. Are they just miserable people in general and are they terrible to work with? And what does it take to get fired in the agency you work for?

    • They are bitter tools who are as tough to work alongside as you might guess. They typically have a way of working themselves out, if you get my drift.

      • If by that you mean they get fired and shuffled off to another city/state/department to terrorize the public , rinse, repeat, recycle. Yes I do………..

        I have a close friend who is on the force and he is lucky. He works with some great people. But I have dealt with leo’s in various capacities for years ( no I have never been arrested ) and the number of rotten apples grows exponentially.

        A large part of the problem is the justice system that refuses to punish cops, they get a slap on the wrist if any at all. If you want to change law enforcement, convince the judges to do their job

        Frank

  18. In response to one of the posters above, I for one am tired of citizens being referred to as “civilians”. Cops are CIVILIANS like anyone else not in the MILITARY. If we have come to see them as soldiers, we have lost already. Then again, we now have our very own “homeland security” which is what I thought we had all the other alphabet bureaucracies for anyway. But I forget myself. When government screws up, they get bigger and receive more money and guns. Funny how that works.

    The deputy should be relieved.

  19. Is this going to be a daily theme now? The whole “Look what this cop did, this is why all of you are the devil” thing is getting sorta old. I like the articles about guns. The endless comments bashing my profession as a whole based on the actions of a few… Not so much. The argument that even the good cops are bad because they never report the ones who actually are bad is ridiculous as well. You have no idea whether things are reported or not. Maybe they are reported and the PD administration does nothing about it. What then? Loose your job so you can go on a crusade for truth and justice? If that happens are you going to set up a fund to help unemployed officers? Because that’s what they will be. As I’ve stated to a commenter before, the real world is slightly more complicated than the Internet. I wish I could snap my fingers and make the world perfect, I really do. But I can’t. There is only so much you can do. I dont know what every cop, everywhere does. I can only speak of my department, and here shitbag officers get run off. Nobody wants to work with an idiot. Nobody wants to trust a dishonest person with their life. Is it like that everywhere? How the hell do I know. I know what it’s like HERE. For some of you to make judgements and decide that you know how things are at every department and every city in America, based only on what you have read or on limited personal experience makes the you look foolish. I understand that it’s mainly the “loud vocal majority” who are doing all the cop bashing. But just as many of you are proclaiming good officers guilty by association for not loudly enough condemning the actions of the idiots in their midst, the exact same thing is happening here. As others have pointed out, the hypocrisy shown on this site is amazing. If the mainstream media portrays the IGOTD as “every gun owner” it upsets you right? If people left 80 comments on each IGOTD post about how all gun owners are retards based on the actions of the person the article is about, most of you would probably conclude that the site was anti gun and that you weren’t welcome here, and you’d most likely feel insulted and that you were being judged unfairly. Some of you live in places with shitty police departments, like Chicago. I’ve visited a website run by CPD officers called Second City Cop, and the content as well as the comments posted by officers there are embarrassing to me a as a police officer. But Chicago PD isn’t representative of everywhere else, and that’s something that a few of the commenters seem unwilling to realize. Or you do, but you just use it as an excuse to bash the rest of us.
    You have in your midst numerous officers who love firearms and the second amendment. We are here reading and posting right alongside you. We are the officers who can be the bridge between you and the officers who don’t share your interests or views. We can be an asset. Many of us have been involved in armed confrontations, actual shootings, and the legal mess that follows. I would think that this would be a useful resource for people who carry guns for the purpose of self defense. But instead of anyone expressing any interest in these things, many commenters use our presence as an opportunity to insult not only our profession but us as individuals. I’ve asked this before and received nothing but more insults in response: How does deepening the divide between LEO/ non-LEO benefit anyone? It makes you not trust us, and makes us not trust you. Since everyone here is reading the same freaking website, how about we try to work together to promote a positive image of gun owners. Because the “loud vocal minority” are doing nothing but hurting it.

    • Even though I’m not a fan of your chosen profession and don’t like the whole concept of it in general, I agree. You make a lot of good points.

    • We get to say what we want because the police are paid with our taxes to serve our communities so ALL police, including you, answer to the public. This is why the comparison to gun owners is weak because gun ownership is a right protected by the Constitution.

      Since you are public servants and your employers by and large are not happy with the “service” being provided, zit is not you right to be offended or “tired of it” it is your place to make it better. If you’ve done all you can so be it.

      The fact is that the overall system is corrupt and broken and most police forces are stepping right in line with that. You don’t have to like it, it is what it is. If I had some warm fuzzy police stories I’d certainly share them, but all I typically see is the negative aspects of law enforcement as do most of the people here.

      I’ve seen plenty of police strikes and disputes over the years over pay and benefits, but I’ve never once seen a cop speak out about corruption or the trampling over peoples’ rights. You can spare me the whole” we get fired” schtick because I know of some germans that said something very similar a few decades ago..

      • Serpico and a few others are popular examples. A lot of good guys probably just quit whatever bad department they’re working for and move on with their lives.

        And for the record I don’t accept the “few bad apples” thing as some sort of universal phenomenon. That may be true in some places but sometimes there’s a whole damn basket full of them. I can’t remember if it was Winter Garden here in FL or Winter Springs, but they took a ton of problem officers fired from other agencies. Needless to say the corrupt chief was brought down and a lot of his boys went with him.

      • Dukester, your entire post makes me ashamed to be reading TTAG. You are more unreasonable than the cop that was the subject of this story.

    • Ron, if you and your supposed good cops would weed out the bad ones there wouldn’t be so much animosity. There are dozens of cops that are charged daily with crimes or convicted of crimes. With only around 700,000 LEOs, this is a large number. They didn’t get caught for their first or probably tenth crime. Their partner knows it and their chiefs know it. Either turn them in or you will be considered to be one of them.

    • The argument that even the good cops are bad because they never report the ones who actually are bad is ridiculous as well.
      So how many cops have you arrested? How many of your coworkers have you reported to internal affairs or the media?

      You have no idea whether things are reported or not.
      So why dont you tell us how many you have reported to the internal affiars and the media?

      Maybe they are reported and the PD administration does nothing about it. What then?
      Report them to the city council and the media.

      Loose your job so you can go on a crusade for truth and justice?
      Yes.

      If that happens are you going to set up a fund to help unemployed officers? Because that’s what they will be.
      They can collect unemployment insurance just like everyone else while they try to find work in the private sector.

      I can only speak of my department, and here shitbag officers get run off.
      The problem is how do you define shitbag? Is there a citizens comission which can run officers off?

      For some of you to make judgements and decide that you know how things are at every department and every city in America
      The internet has shown it is the same in every city in America. From big cities like Chicago, to bum-fvck Wyoming.

      How does deepening the divide between LEO/ non-LEO benefit anyone?
      Accerating the inevitable.

      It makes you not trust us, and makes us not trust you.
      We all ready are not trusted. Do you trust anyone you stop or arrest? And if so, then why did you stop or arrest them?

      Since everyone here is reading the same freaking website, how about we try to work together to promote a positive image of gun owners.
      Bashing on cops has nothing to do with the image of gun owners in regards to the antis. If anything it furthers our objective of the nessecity to carry.

      Because the “loud vocal minority” are doing nothing but hurting it.
      You previously called it the “loud vocal majority”. Which is it?

  20. “Capt. Robert Pierson, a U.S. Marine Corps helicopter pilot who has served two combat tours in Afghanistan.”
    “And I was a little unnerved by the fact that they were threatening lethal force with a deadly weapon against a man who was compliant, in handcuffs, who had been screened.””
    ” Bassett acknowledged he offered to release Pierson if he allowed Deputy Rob Andazola to draw his weapon and cover Pierson.”

    I’m also unnerved by the fact that they were threatening lethal force with a deadly weapon against a man who was compliant, in handcuffs, who had been screened. I would want them off the job also. My guess Deputy Corry Bassett will always be a jackass.

  21. I’ve visited a website run by CPD officers called Second City Cop, and the content as well as the comments posted by officers there are embarrassing to me a as a police officer.

    Funny that. What was so embarrassing?

    Articles on… quota systems being bad police work? Calling the Mayor’s PR staff on their lies about crime going down? Laughing about the denial of the mafia in neighborhoods everyone knows it’s in?

    Stuff like this from the site?
    “Anyone who thinks we “owe” the citizens movers, parkers and contact cards is drinking way too much kool-aid. They get fleeced by Rahm daily, and before Rahm, by Daley. We owe the citizenry prompt service, thorough investigations, common courtesy and proper enforcement when appropriate. ”

    Coppers venting on “dogs” (lazy in Chicago-ese)? Venting about stupid initiatives that get in the way of police work? Talking about not wanting to do contact cards, especially on quota as they are a violation of the Constitution? Complaining that an assistant prosecutor was undercharged in a recent assault case? Whining about the gel-boys who couldn’t make ISP, so they spend their time writing traffic all day as a suck-up instead of fighting crime?

    I’ve been to well over a hundred cop sites over the years, and this one of the more professional ones. Very little racism (incredibly rare among cops, even more rare on their websites) as much, or more, concern about service as how to make it to their big fat pensions (and they are California generous!) actual discussion of relevant issues, not just the usual union blather and who’s coming to the charity drinking fest this weekend.

    Yeah there’s BS and some wahoos there, but for what’s primarily a site by and for CPD, I’m really wondering what you found so distasteful? Because most Chicago coppers hate Emmanuel as much as anybody else.

    • What I find embarrassing is the apparent inability of most of the posters there (as here) to express disagreement without resorting to personal insults and name calling. Many times a valid point gets lost because the only thing people notice is the obnoxious way it was put forth. I believe in treating people with respect, even those with whom I disagree. I says a lot that out of everything I wrote you choose to overlook any possible valid statement and jump on the one thing that allows you to make more anti police/ anti government comments. I get it, you don’t like cops. You’re entitled to that. But do you have to obsess about it and express it in EVERY post?

      • “Here” as in my post? Please do point out the ad hominem attack I have made in this, or any other post I have made on this subject.

        You don’t like my tone? Sorry, that’s not a “personal attack” or an “insult”. I asked questions about your attack a particular site and a particular city. That you don’t like my questions because they force your hand is your problem, not mine. You made a statement about Chicago and a site, I questioned what it was you didn’t like about a pretty darn good (as they go) cop site. With cops themselves bitching about a lot of the issues that are being raised by us “attackers”.

        I don’t dislike cops inherently. In my personal and business worlds I often talk with cops, drink with them, hang out with them, shoot with them, and have even dated a few of them. I’ve also had interactions with some bad ones that didn’t get dicey only because I knew who to call to make them stand down and (temporarily) unfvck themselves. Not to mention 4 in the near family.

        What I don’t like is bad cops. I also don’t like it when semi-good cops cover for bad cops. Not the little BS that everybody covers for everybody, but the systemic failure of a squad(pick a CRASH squad). Or a house (Rampart). Or a whole department (Miami in the 80s, NOPD for the last 80 years…).

        You’ve stated that you can’t do anything because of fear of retribution and termination. I’ve pointed out in several of my posts that I’m quite well aware how the system works and that it can be very difficult to correct bad behavior in a fellow copper.

        That said, it’s no more an excuse for inaction than it is in the military or anywhere else. Chasing out the undesirables is part of the gig.

        • Meant “Here” as in on this site, not in your particular post. While I may not agree with all of your views, you have been completely civil and resonable in your posts. I appologize for not being more clear if you took that as a negative statement towards you. Wasnt meant that way.

        • Ron, and my apologies if I was overly defensive. As long as we can all be civil, that’s the start. As much as I don’t care about being unpopular, I also want to argue the unpopular with some facts and civility – otherwise why bother?

          Anyway, we don’t have to agree, but we do have to get along. Thanks for being part of that.

      • Respect is earned, not given. Yes, I’ll give the benefit of the doubt so that I can come to know a person but it doesn’t take more than about four or five sentences to know if someone has earned respect. The vast majority of cops I’ve met don’t deserve respect.

  22. Oh you guys thought you’ve heard/seen it all?

    wait until you watch this ‘news’ propaganda by idiot pressitutes from Orlando, FL:

    http://www.clickorlando.com/news/Experts-Lead-free-bullets-could-give-criminals-an-advantage/-/1637132/16735668/-/sesqe7/-/index.html

    apparently the ever UnConstitutional EPA-corporatist eco nazi approved non-lead full copper ammo showers the world with “criminal advantage!”

    LOLOLOLOLOLOL so says the Latina hottie unfit for news.

    don’t get me wrong, I LOVE copper/gilded ammo, especially if you actually intend to eat your game, as lead poisoning is cumulative.

    hope this ain’t some sick joke by Barnes and Hornady’s competitors, or their way of publicly passive-aggressively jabbing those noted full copper/gilded ammo manufacturers, while fully taking advantage of the fact that eco nazis have been bitching about the gut-pile eating California condors dying of cumulative lead poisoning.

    hm… regardless, here I thought chemical spectrography picked up gun powder, and everything else. not to mention the fact that the oh so weight and form retaining full copper/gilded bullets are ‘easier’ to match the rifling with (unless they’re shot out of polygonally rifled barrels), vs. utterly deformed/splintered/broken apart jacketed lead rounds.

    though, they should do a study on the true percentage of JHP v. ball ammo used in documented DGU cases.

    my guess?

    observing Greg Ellifritz’s rather excellent recent article, chances are, statistically most armed criminal cases involve ball ammo, which makes this lead-nonissue mostly another MSM’s anti-gun propaganda disguised as “public safety” and pro-statist actors ‘thang.’

    is there no end to this comedy train of tragic B-movie opera of non-journalistic literary farce??

  23. I think some cops should be in another line of work if some cops feel they are going to be shooting us so they can go home at night.

  24. “We’re told every day, our safety is first,” he said. “We’re here to come home every night.”

    I rest my case. Cops SUCK.

  25. I will say they do not get paid enough for the stupidity they have to deal with. That is their entire job dealing with stupid people. In my small town one of my friends was a cop and he told me they have expired bullet proof vests and patrol cars with 250k miles on them. and he told me the glock they tried to issue him had been chewed on by a dog. He quit to go drive a forklift at a industrial plant where he got better pay and benefits haha. Those circumstances can’t give anyone much confidence in what they are doing. They are doing the job no one else wants to do, and getting paid what no one else wants to get paid. so I will give them a pass on that.

    • they have expired bullet proof
      So why doesnt he buy another?

      patrol cars with 250k miles on them.
      Plenty of people have high milage cars, if I drove as much as a cop mine would be the same

      and he told me the glock they tried to issue him had been chewed on by a dog
      so why doesn’t he buy another? Look at most professions, you have to come to work with your own tools.

      They are doing the job no one else wants to do, and getting paid what no one else wants to get paid
      Plenty of people want to do it. To become a Chicago cop, you have to have clout. And then get paid plenty of money, and a golden pension.

  26. REF: Hal’s Comments –

    OK! I appreciate what you’re saying; but, nevertheless, there is a huge propensity inside modern law enforcement towards the individual abuse of civil power and authority.

    Lately I’ve been reading about far too many incidents of police officers quickly opening fire on civilians who – while some of these people were armed – offered no, ‘real and present danger’ to responding officers; AND, it really pisses me off to read the crass and indifferent comments made over these unfortunate incidents by numerous police officers wo regularly post on websites like Glock Talk, and others.

    Just because I’m an armed civilian doesn’t give a nervous police officer any right, whatsoever, to quickly shoot me down so that he gets to, ‘go home at the end of his shift’. If that’s, ‘all the balls’ modern police officers are able to muster then I’m going to respectfully suggest that too many of the, ‘boys in blue’ are in entirely the wrong profession.

    As a law abiding citizen and (former) homeowner, myself, I’m strictly required to use my pistol under only the most rigorously defined rules-of-engagement and self-defense. I’m certainly not allowed to summarily blow somebody away because I’m uncomfortable around other people with guns. (You should meet some of the really strange people I occasionally shoot with at isolated public shooting ranges!) ‘Finishing your shift’ is NOT an acceptable excuse for either provoking a gunfight or threatening another armed citizen with DEATH!

    That Wyoming Sheriff’s Deputy is a professionally inept stupid ass whose ignorance and lack of civility might – very well, someday – get him into real trouble with another gunman who’s both faster and better than him, knows it, and isn’t quite ready to allow some jerk with a uniform and a gun to cover him for, ‘safety’s sake’. I mean, ‘Geeze!’ If you, yourself, were in mufti, would you allow another law enforcement officer to threaten you like that! Would you?

    (I’ll bet you’d be shouting, ‘Fellow Officer!’ at the top of your lungs, and reaching for your wallet and badge, PDQ! Besides REAL CRIMINALS only rarely open carry; and anybody who’s been in law enforcement for awhile knows it, too.) 😀

  27. Your personal safety does not trump my Constitutional rights. You knew the requirements of the job before you were hired. If you were so afraid of being hurt, you should have trained for a different job. Go back to school and get retrained for something safe. I would advise against the career field of “unarmed conveniance store clerk”. Otherwise, stop whining about the danger. You are free to quit at any time.

  28. A trend I’ve noticed in these comments is that officers of the state generalize the populace as, “This guy(or rarely, woman) is gonna make me meet my maker” or any other generalization of being a potential criminal, crack head, murderer, or baby killer, if thats what we come off to you as, judging by how you talk to, treat, and respond to us civvies. But if thats what thier job has trained them to think when they encounter anyone, criminal or not, then you can’t really dismiss the fact that we see most cops as corrupt, self-serving, egotistical swine, as thats how most of you come off to us.

    Just the way it is, and will be, no watter how much internet dick waving is done, from either side.

    Just sayin….

      • That is why as much as we want “good” cops to not only do their own duty, but to keep their coworkers honest, is not as easy as in some other jobs.

        I’m NOT saying that we shouldn’t expect it – we have every right to. I’m not letting cops off the hook either. As I’ve pointed out in other posts, they know full well who does what bad stuff on their squad – regardless of how much they protest that it “never happens in my dept” that’s a line of pure BS. There’s crooked coppers at Disneyland and only the complete ostrich could ignore it.

        But do keep in mind, doing something about a dicey cop without the approval of the rest of the herd can get you very dead. Or at least, kill your career. Make too many waves and your backups will be slow. Keep making waves, they may not show till it’s too late. You won’t be “bustin’ gay bars” you’ll be career-tracked to the mailroom. Or, you’ll have a dicey bust and none of the cops who could easily back you on what happened, will remember anything.

        While it’s almost unheard of that a cop will kill another cop directly, if you think ‘Training Day’ is just a movie fantasy, it really isn’t. Exaggerated in places, but Rampart did much weirder stuff in real life. Read up on Miami PD in the 80s. Half the force was distributing multiple kilos in patrol cars. On duty. NOPD is still as rotten to the core as it ever was for the last 80 years and I can’t count how many new Chiefs they’ve had that we’re gonna “remake the department and eliminate the corruption”.

        It ain’t easy to fix your friends and the people you have to count on. In the end, cops must do that because no one else can, but do give the good ones a little slack, as unlike most professions your coworkers can really get you dead, or at least, eff up your life permanently.

  29. Back in 2007, I was heald a gunpoint by 4 cops in Springfield, Ohio, FOR OBEYING THE LAW. At the time, Ohio’s CCW law required you to carry your sidearm IN A HOLSTER, ON YOUR PERSON, IN PLAIN SIGHT while in a motor vehicle. I did just that, and stood handcuffed in the rain for about 15 minutes while the LEO’s, including a Lt., figured out I was legal,

    Do I blame the cops involved? A little, especially the Sgt. who initiated the incident. But by the greatest majority, I hold then-governor Bob Taft and the Commandant of the Ohio State Patrol responsible, as they were the ones that demanded that this ludricrous provision be included in the law. Thankfully, the legislature changed the statutes to remedy the situation.

  30. You see a man with a firearm not knowing the man’s intentions, mind set, mental stability etc.

    CCW-prepare to engage if life is threatened.
    Soldier-prepare to engage if life is threatened.
    Unarmed sheep-prepare to ask why the schools failed him, become a victim of a violent crime, tell him I’m sorry, hope to god someone sees this and calls the police.
    Police-prepare to engage if life is threatened…..Oh wait no your go on your merry way.

    We never know the intention of another human being, the act of detaining an armed person is completely legal. Nobody has a crystal ball to see what a person is about to do if a dangerous threat presents its self then as humans (animals) we act accordingly.

    To the Cop in the video: Get better training and education as to what is legal and what is not legal, don’t get flustered because someone knows his/her basic constitutional rights.

    To the Vet on the bike: Keep riding and thank you for your service to your country, but know the case law in which our country basis its laws from the supreme court has made decisions to which this case would pertain.

    I don’t agree with many laws or police procedure but an old law professor told me “you will never win a fight with a cop on the street, the place to fight an illegal arrest is in the court room so keep your mouth shut….then sue the pants off of them.”

  31. Officers swear to uphold the constitution, not “to go home no matter what”. If he or she does not understand the oath then the officer has no business being a police officer.

  32. He is following his training!!!!!!, What about the OATH HE SWORE TO… to get the job. He swore to defend the constitution of the united states of america, Guess his word isnt worth anything anymore.. Go Figure.

  33. I think the views shared by most here are valid concerns for all. The men and women who fill the ranks of law enforcement across America are a direct reflection of the citizens they serve. They are the sons and daughters, mothers and fathers etc. within. Citizens most always hold the enforcers to a higher standard than they would themselves hold. This is despite it’s contradiction- a neccessary norm in the profession. Not every man or woman wearing a badge is suited for the task, just as not every man or woman who is a doctor, or lawyer is suited for the task. The truth is that despite our efforts- we cannot predict what a man or woman will do under all circumstances-until they do it. In the meantime, each of us is accountable for our action, or our inaction regardless of our profession. We are all responsible to protect each other, and serve each other, because we are all one in the same.

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