Calibers for Beginners: 6.5 Creedmoor

6.5 Creedmoor Calibers For Beginners

The debate around 6.5 Creedmoor never seems to end. There have been many times where I’ve discussed this cartridge in my articles and there has always been some level of misunderstanding around it. So let’s talk about what 6.5 Creedmoor is and what it isn’t as far as a new shooter is concerned.

The 6.5 Creedmoor cartridge is essentially, an Americanized version of the 6.5x55mm Mauser round that fits into almost anything that’s sized to fit a .308 Winchester/7.62x51mm. Before the detractors come out, understand that there really isn’t much room for debate on this. A quick look at the 2018 Hodgdon reloading manual shows that the 6.5 Creedmoor and 6.5×55 are extremely close as far as powder charge on most powders, with the 6.5×55 having a slight edge in case capacity and velocity.

There’s nothing new about launching a 140gr 6.5 bullet at 2500 to 2700 fps so don’t be deceived by modern the gun press, which often acts like this is some kind of brand new technology. The Swedish military fielded a 6.5x55mm cartridge called the SK PTR M/94 PRJ M/41 PRICK that fired a 139.9gr spitzer bullet loaded to fly at 2600 fps from the M96 Mauser rifle.

That load displays a trajectory within mere inches of most modern 6.5 Creedmoor factory loads of the same bullet weight. My point to the new shooter is this: 6.5 Creedmoor isn’t really new, but it’s still very effective. What the 6.5 Creedmoor does is bring this effectiveness to guns that we already use, which is why it’s often only a barrel replacement for a .308 Win rifle.

As a beginner or someone new to rifle shooting, the 6.5 Creedmoor is a great cartridge. It fires long-for-its-caliber, aerodynamic bullets that are backed by a stout case and thick powder column. The cartridge was designed for match shooting and precision, so it’s hard to find a rifle that doesn’t shoot it well. It’s a great beginner’s rifle cartridge because it can do most things very well. But the newbie should know that it isn’t a mystical death ray.

6.5 Creedmoor Ammunition

The 6.5 Creedmoor has developed its target shooting reputation for good reason, but new shooters (and many, many experienced ones) should know that it is not an ethical cartridge for long range hunting. It’s actually quite small by comparison to many of its peers.

It is within the same performance envelope as rounds like the .257 Roberts, .243 Win, 7mm-08, and other midsized rifle cartridges. I would, for most game, consider the 6.5 Creedmoor to be a 300 yard cartridge with the option to go a touch further, probably 400-450 yards in a pinch on deer-sized game or smaller.

There are people who will debate this, and they’re entitled to their opinion, but the new shooter — especially those new to long range rifle — should know that there’s nothing honorable or admirable about injuring animals at long range just because you have a flat-shooting cartridge. The time-honored .30-06 and .270 are far superior hunting cartridges that are accessible to most shooters and offer much heavier bullets and better muzzle velocity for the bullet weight.

So, you’re probably wondering when I’m going to address the elephant in the room; comparing it to .308 Win. Sure, I’ll go there, if only for a moment.

A new shooter would be well served with either round depending on what they want to do. There’s a great deal of .308 hate out there, but it isn’t warranted. Jeremy’s recent article was fun and humorous on the 6.5 Creedmoor vs. .308 Win comparison and it ruffled some feathers.

He did make an exceptional point as to bolt actions and semi-auto rifles. If I had to pick today, I would choose a bolt action in 6.5 and a semi-auto in .308. It really depends on what you are looking to do and what your end goal is. For those who wanted this to be a 6.5 vs .308 showdown, I don’t have to time to debate apples and bananas , so you’ll have to read it somewhere else.

Some good points for a beginner looking at the 6.5 Creedmoor are:

Low recoil While not an exceptionally powerful cartridge to begin with, the 6.5 Creedmoor has very low recoil and it can be mitigated even further with a muzzle brake. The young hunter out there is well-served by this caliber. It’s easy and agreeable to shoot for the small-statured, recoil/pain sensitive, and women hunters.

Great accuracy As you can gather, the 6.5 Creedmoor is an inherently accurate cartridge that just seems to want to hit what you aim it at. It has great ballistics past 1,000 yards and is a favorite for shooting paper and steel plates at games like PRS.

Low ammunition cost Unlike many other match grade cartridges, the 6.5 Creedmoor can be had at relatively low expense. Good match ammo from great makers typically runs about $1.00 to $1.50 per cartridge.

Solid rifles The guns that are built to fire 6.5 Creedmoor were rarely designed in that caliber. Most started out as .308 Win guns and, because the two share the same size case head and overall length, it’s an easy conversion. The two even use the same magazines for the most part. This all means that, because of the saturation ff .308 rifles and systems out there, the 6.5 Creedmoor has inherited mature platforms, which has helped it to become so popular.

A few downsides to the 6.5 Creedmoor, especially for a new shooter include:

Relatively short barrel life. Unlike the 6.5x55mm, which has a long throat and generous case volume and relatively low chamber pressure (51,000 PSI), and thus an exceedingly long barrel life, the 6.5 Creedmoor has to go up to around 60,000 PSI to achieve the same velocities. That means that barrels will wear faster. A high-volume shooter will easily fire 3,000 rifle rounds per rifle in a competitive season, which is often the accurate life for a 6.5 Creedmoor barrel. By comparison, the .308 has an accurate barrel life beyond 8-9,000 rounds, or more than double the 6.5 CM. A vigorous competitor may be looking at a new barrel every year or two depending on their requirements.

Overstated performance Yes, the 6.5 Creedmoor is a fantastic and accurate cartridge. I love it and love what it has done for long range shooting. I don’t like that it has been overplayed as much as it has. A new shooter who buys a 6.5 Creedmoor will still have to practice just as much as the next guy who’s shooting .223 or .308. It won’t make you a better shooter, but it can remove some of the rough edges, especially when it comes to learning how to read wind and correct bullet drop. That said, wind and drop are still present on the 6.5 Creedmoor, despite what you may read.

Comparatively fewer ammo choices The problem with 6.5CM and all new cartridges is that they’re both made and broken by the availability of ammo. Cartridges like the .308 and .30-06 hold a massive advantage for the casual shooter in that they’re both mature and widely available. There are more and more choices for 6.5 Creedmoor all the time, but this can a factor for some people.

Ruger Precision Rifle RPR 6.5 Creedmoor

Some great rifles to take a look at that are chambered in 6.5 Creedmoor are listed below. There are of course some that I missed, as I do in every CFB article, but cut me some slack because I’m trying to keep this under 2,000 words.

Ruger Precision Rifle and Gunsite Scout These rifles both took the gun world by storm and for good reason. Ruger seems very adept at making what shooters want and it’s no different with these two. The RPR is a state-of-the-art bolt-action that has a huge number of accuracy-increasing features and is ready for the competition line out of the box. The Gunsite Scout, already a classic for most riflemen, can be had in 6.5 these days and it offers clean, traditional lines with enough modern spice to make it almost indispensable.

Savage Arms offers over two dozen models chambering 6.5 Creedmoor. These include their famous bolt actions and their new AR-10 style MSR 10. As you can expect from Savage, these will be as accurate as they are nice to look at.

Howa is one of the few companies that offers barreled actions for the hobby builder. You can find these actions, stocks, and accessories at places like Brownell’s. On the Brownell’s site, you can order all the parts you need to build your own custom Howa on a 6.5 Creedmoor barreled action.

Whether you ike it, love it, or just don’t get it, the 6.5 Creedmoor is a little bit of everything rolled into one shiny, sometimes misunderstood package. A beginner can do great things with this cartridge, but they should know their limits when it comes to hunting and their own skills. Expect the 6.5 Creedmoor to continue to do great things in the future and continue to improve from there.

comments

  1. avatar Texheim says:

    Where all the Luddites at?

    1. avatar Jason(6.5C)M says:

      They’re shooting their .308s.

      I’m assuming that now that we’ve covered the 6.5 CM, the series will be over. There’s nowhere to go but down.

      1. avatar Creedless No Moor says:

        Whereas the Creedmoor owners are all online commenting since they can’t afford the Creedmoor ammo to be out shooting.

      2. avatar Arc says:

        Don’t plan on doing any match shooting, so 1-2 MOA is suitable for my purposes, defense, battle rifle, occasional plinking of vermin <250 meters away.

      3. avatar yolo says:

        we still have to cover the long and distinguished history of the 45 GAP.

    2. avatar Billy says:

      Ponder the irony of looking for Luddites on the internet.

  2. avatar Illinois_Minion says:

    For us (paper) target hunters, .308 seems like the cheaper way to go. Especially since public ranges over 100yds are rare (hear in Chiraq territory.

    But I am itching to try 6.5cr to reduce the shoulder pains after a few dozen shots.

    1. avatar Curtis in IL says:

      A reloading press should mitigate any concerns about ammo cost, regardless of caliber.

      Handloaded ammo, developed and optimized for a particular rifle, is pretty important for precision shooting.

      1. avatar Tbill says:

        Winner, winner , chicken dinner!

      2. avatar Gov. William J Le Petomane says:

        If you reload you’re better off with the .260 Rem. Thicker brass at the neck will hold up better and cases can be made from any of the billions of .308/7.62×51 cases strewn around everywhere.

        1. avatar John in AK says:

          Blasphemy, again!
          Surely you must realize that anything based upon the 7.62×51 is not only now hideously outclassed, glaringly obsolete, and woefully inadequate in every possible ballistic context, but is known to cause cancer in laboratory rats, hemorrhoids, and the Heartbreak of Psoriasis?!
          I personally cannot wait for the 6.1, 6.2, 6.3, 6.4, 6.6, 6.7, 6.8, and 6.9mm versions of this mighty new cartridge; That span of bullet sizes should cover literally every shooter’s needs, from household pest control to hunting blue whales, including home defense and the occasional sniping of unfriendly neighbors at distances up to and including a mile.
          Trust me, this is the 9mm Parabellum of rifle cartridges! It’s going to rapidly join the Pantheon of Standard Cartridges, right there with the .256 Gibbs Magnum and the .50-80 Webley-Vickers!

        2. avatar Dyspeptic Gunsmith says:

          If you’re shooting for precision/accuracy, you’re going to end up turning down some of that thick brass to get a uniformity in concentricity.

    2. avatar Dyspeptic Gunsmith says:

      Check out 6BR for punching paper in a short action.

      1. avatar JasonM says:

        Or .224 Valkyrie, if you want to shoot out of an AR-15 with drops and wind adjustments similar to 6.5 CM.

  3. avatar California Richard says:

    “….the newbie should know that it isn’t a mystical death ray.”

    HERESY!!!! NOTIFY THE INQUISITION!!!

    1. avatar Jason(6.5 C)M says:

      It’s not “mystical”. It’s still a death ray.

      1. avatar Dave in PTC says:

        It’s a scientifically proven ultimate magical laser death ray!

        Do you know why unicorns are nowhere to be found? They’re kept in a secret military building in Area 51. Their horns are harvested and blended in a metallurgical mix of brass, Superman’s spit, diamond dust and laser light particles. That’s why Creedmoor is more than a round; it’s more than a way of life; its the substance that holds alternate universes together. It is the opposite of the crusty .308; it is the Essence of Awesomeness; it is
        C-R-E-E-D-M-O-O-R!

  4. avatar neiowa says:

    DON’T FEED THE TROLLS

  5. avatar Tom in NC says:

    A nice, well balanced article, Dan. My preference for now in my bolt guns is still .308 since I bought lots of Black Hills 175gr match when it was the round of choice for the mil-spec rifles I used and still use. But sounds like the 6.5 CM is a worthy successor on the target range. Not sure it’s quite as good for longer range anti personnel use given the bullet wats, but I’ll keep an open mind about that.

    1. avatar Walt says:

      I don’t know your shooting experience or knowledge, so don’t take offense if I say something you already know. The sectional density of a 6.5 140gr bullet is naturally high by design. That means it’ll have a higher penetration than a 30 cal bullet that’s much heavier. I’m not saying a 6.5 143 eld-x bullet will have greater penetration than a 308 175smk. It’ll be pretty close though. At longer ranges, the 6.5 bullet will quickly gain on the 308 in energy also. The Swedes knew it in the early 1900’s when we were putting out the 1906 springfield. We’re just starting to admit it here in the US.

      1. avatar Free Ammo says:

        “The Swedes knew it in the early 1900’s when we were putting out the 1906 springfield. We’re just starting to admit it here in the US.”

        A 156 grain 6.5 mm round nose bullet starting at 2400 fps with a bullet coefficient below .300
        vs
        170 grain 30 caliber spire point boat tail at 2700 fps?

        Even the first 30-03 220 grain round nose bullet had as efficient a shape as the first Swede bullets.

        I doubt the swede bullet ever catches up in their original loadings.

        There is no replacement for displacement.

  6. avatar Walt says:

    There is no magic bullet or cartridge, but the 6.5 bullets are very aerodynamic and have a high sectional density. That means you have a better chance of hitting a target in a 20 mph wind, and the high SD means you’ll get better penetration than with some of the other calibers. A 270 win with a 130gr or 140gr rem corelokt will be going about the same speed as a 6.5 creedmoor with 143 eld-x bullet at 300 yards. They both make great hunting rifles out to that distance. Probably 95% of all game taken by hunters in the US are at shots closer than 300 yards. Most are less than 150 yards. So long range probably isn’t an issue unless you live in one of the western states. The 6.5 creedmoor makes for a great deer rifle. Period. I didn’t say it was better than … At normal deer ranges, a 6.5 creed, 7-08, 308 etc… they all make great short action deer rifles. Some people may enjoy shooting a 6.5 creedmoor with a 130gr bullet over some of the others though.

  7. avatar Biff says:

    It would be nice if you would add drop, drift & energy graphs that would compare 6.5 CM to Mk118 LR and a typical.300 WM target load. Then people would have a good visual comparison between other traditional long range target cartridges.

  8. avatar Owen says:

    When is the 224 Valkyrie CFB article coming out?

    I think that will be my choice for long range hole punching.

    1. avatar JasonM says:

      My .224V upper just arrived yesterday. If it’s as good as everyone is saying, it’ll be my long range paper and steel caliber of choice.

  9. avatar Rokurota says:

    I’m just here for the comments.

  10. avatar jwtaylor says:

    If you are talking about long range hunting, there’s nothing far superior in the .30-06 over the 6.5 Creedmoor. Using the fastest 150gr commercial round I can find for the .30-06, the Hornady Superformance SST, and the 129gr SST Hornady Superformance for the 6.5CM, the .30-06 has a whopping 8% advantage in energy at 500 yards, using the data published by Hornady on their website.
    I can get to a 10% difference if I try with similar commercial ammunition but in heavier weights. But with most off-the-shelf ammunition, I’m seeing even less.
    Advantage? Sure. But just a tiny one.

    Also, another 6.5 article?

    1. avatar billy-bob says:

      Well… June is Creedmonth at TTAG.

      1. avatar Jason(6.5 C)M says:

        6/5 is Creedmas, the holiest of days for Creedmoormons.

        1. avatar rosignol says:

          A designated day for good-natured ribbing of the Creedmoor fans could be a thing.

          Let’s make it ‘the days ending in y’.

          But let’s keep calling 6/5 ‘Creedmas’, that’s funny.

      2. avatar Creedless No Moor says:

        June 5th is Creedmoor day!

        Edit: Creedmas, I like that…

        1. avatar Dave in PTC says:

          We wish you a Merry Creedmas,
          We wish you a Merry Creedmas,
          We wish you a Merry Creedmas,
          To take a 47 point deer!

    2. avatar Dyspeptic Gunsmith says:

      A long, long time ago, Townsend Whelen published an article titled “Just a Little Bit Better” about the .280 Remington in bolt guns. I still recall the first line from that article:

      “If you already own a .30-06 or .270 Winchester with which you shoot acceptably well, you need read no further…”

      Today, gun rag editors would squawk like pack of ruptured ducks if one of their writers wrote something like that.

      Basically, Townie pointed out that both the .270 and ’06 were within 10% of what you could achieve with the optimized ballistics of the 7mm pills you could stuff downrange with a .280 Rem. At 500 yards, which was considered quite a long shot back in the early 60’s, there was no real difference in how dead a deer or elk would be at that range.

      Today, OK, there’s enough difference with the new VLD pills you can fit into a chamber designed from the get-go for them that they’re worth shooting over the canonical spitzer bullets we’ve been shooting for the last 100+ years – IF you’re shooting for a score at 600+ yards. Higher Bc’s mean less drop and less wind drift and those who can dope the wind or minimize the impacts of wind will, over time, rack up the most points and X’s if they know how to shoot. That’s it.

      For hunting, there’s no point in buying a new rifle for 6.5 if, as Townie said, you have an ’06 or .270 you already shoot well. Heck, in the heavy timber here in Wyoming, when I’m elk hunting, I’m back to packing a lever gun with irons.

      Now, if I were a guy who reloads, and I were buying “one rifle to hunt everything” in North America, I would think carefully about the .280 Remington, because the bullet selection in 7mm bullets is very, very good for both target and hunting uses, the recoil is mild, and by the time you’re up to a 180gr pill, you’ve got very, very good sectional density (which will reflect in how deeply/reliably it penetrates). With modern powders (eg, Re17) and the pressures typical in bolt guns (56K PSI as opposed to the Remington semi-auto 740’s 49K PSI), the .280 is knocking on the door of 7mm RemMag velocities, with cheaper brass you can make from necking ’06 brass down. If I wanted a 6.5 for hunting, I’d go get a Swede/Norwegian/etc 6.5×55 Mauser, customize it, and use it as intended, with up to 160gr pills. Again, fantastic SD.

      But buy a 6.5 CM specifically for hunting? I dunno. Maybe at the right price, because I tend to buy guns “just because they were lonely and needed a good home,” but probably not specifically for hunting.

    3. avatar Curtis in IL says:

      Seems like there might be a difference in shoulder damage between .30-06 and 6.5CM after a few dozen rounds.

      Maybe that’s just me.

  11. avatar tdiinva says:

    6.5 Creedmore for beginners:

    This is a niche cartridge for long range competitive shooters and operators operating operationally. If that isn’t you stick to .243, 270, .308 or 30-06 for your medium and big game cartridge and you will save a lot of money.

    1. avatar dlj95118 says:

      …thank you.

    2. avatar Creedless No Moor says:

      Step 1, learn how to spell Creedmoor.

      1. avatar tdiinva says:

        Step 2. Have an argument other than spelling

        1. avatar Dave in PTC says:

          Step 3. Buy a 6.5 Creedmoor rifle.

        2. avatar Creedless No Moor says:

          Step 4. Buy 6.5 Creedmoor ammo (if you can afford it).

    3. avatar jwtaylor says:

      According to midwayusa.com, you’ll save all of about ten cents per round on common hunting ammunition by Federal, Winchester, Hornady, etc.
      For the reloader, the price is maybe 3% of even that.

      1. avatar tdiinva says:

        Since in practical use there is no difference among any of the calibers on a cost effectiveness basis CreedMOOR is the loser unless you are shooting at extreme range.

      2. avatar anonymoose says:

        Get an eye-load of that filthy scab with the beard flashing his filthy scab money!

        Ten cents per round stacks up a lot when you shoot in volume. .308’s already kinda pricey for fancy brand-name ammo. Then again, you probably aren’t really shooting in volume since there are few non-boutique non-boltguns in 6.5 Creedmeme.

        1. avatar anonymoose says:

          Of course you can find MUCH better deals on Luckygunner than Midway.

        2. avatar Jason(6.5 C)M says:

          There are lots of options for 6.5 CM. All a company has to do is modify their .308 rifle designs with a barrel swap. That’s one of the benefits of the cartridge: the .308 rifle and accessories market applies to the Creedmoor, except barrels.

          Kudos on the DonBot reference, by the way. 🙂

    4. avatar Dyspeptic Gunsmith says:

      The .243 will probably have a higher per-shot cost for barrel replacement. The .243 is pretty hard on barrels.

  12. avatar jwtaylor says:

    Anybody remember this:

    “I hear a lot that the military wants to move into 6.5mm rifles becomes of performance issues with the 5.56 and .308. Again, this is wishful thinking.” -Josh Wayner, in “The Truth About 6.5MM Ammo”, thetruthaboutguns.com, June 2016

    More recently:

    “Top special operations snipers will replace their 7.62mm sniper rifles with a caliber that doubles their hit probability at 1,000 meters, increases their effective range by nearly half, reduces wind drift by a third and has less recoil. What caliber is that, might you ask? The 6.5mm Creedmoor.” -Military Times, May 2018

    1. avatar bob says:

      Burned…

    2. avatar tdiinva says:

      When was last time you took game at 1000 yards?

      1. avatar jwtaylor says:

        Coyote, 2 weeks ago. West Texas. Article in the works.
        But more to my point, before that, July 2009, 830 meters, man, Zabul province.

        1. avatar Creedless No Moor says:

          Clearly you weren’t using a .308. They’re totally harmless at that range. At least I’m pretty sure that’s what Jeremy said.

        2. avatar Josh Wayner says:

          I try not to comment on my articles these days on any site I write for, but this comment is loaded with unnecessary and excessive posturing to prove essentially nothing and is not what belongs in these comments. What I wrote a year ago holds up. Special units are also issuing .338 NM, .300 NM, and many other long range calibers you forgot to mention so gleefully as the 6.5 CM (probably because they don’t prove your point), but none will fully replace what is currently NATO issue and the worldwide standard at this point in time. Sure, one group has a 6.5 CM set of rifles, but that’s not the whole military nor will it be. Maybe in thirty years, but not today. By then there will probably be something that is favored over 6.5 CM, then again there just might be something that knocks it down in a week from now.

          Secondly, it is terribly inhumane to shoot game at those distances, and you shouldn’t be proud of it, nor is it acceptable to bolster that with saying you also killed a man. Neither of those things are redeemable in the context of an article geared at new shooters. Saying you killed a man does nothing to make you more correct or silence the fact that killing game at extreme distance is completely unethical. If anything it makes it more inappropriate. Animals are to be conserved and wildlife protected. Taking risky shots is what makes people hate hunters. There’s nothing masculine or good about getting bumped by the wind and shooting a coyote’s lower jaw off at 1,000 yards and then having it starve to death in agony.

          My advice to new shooters and hunters: Don’t be that guy. Know when not to take the shot and you will do generations of hunters a huge favor.

        3. avatar tdiinva says:

          Thank you, Josh.

        4. avatar jwtaylor says:

          Josh, you lecturing anyone on hubris is irony at its worst.

          You got called out with your uninformed bullshit about the 6.5CMs use in the military, and now all you can do, instead of swallowing your enormous pride and admitting you were wrong, is change the goal posts and try some pathetic shaming.

          tdinva asked a simple question. He got a simple answer. He got not boasts, no cheers. Any hubris you found is purely a reflection of your own inadequacy.

          Grow up.

        5. avatar Creedless No Moor says:

          I guess everyone should relocate their coyotes to Josh’s yard. That would be more ethical and humane than shooting them.

        6. avatar Josh Wayner says:

          At the end of the day I’m not the one who said this and meant it to try to prove a point to a site reader:
          “Coyote, 2 weeks ago. West Texas. Article in the works.
          But more to my point, before that, July 2009, 830 meters, man, Zabul province.”

          😉

        7. avatar Creedless No Moor says:

          Thanks Captain Obvious! I’m glad you’re aware that things posted by jw weren’t first posted by you. Do you have any other things you’d like to share with the rest of the class?

        8. avatar jwtaylor says:

          Uhh yeah Joshy, that’s exactly what I said.
          You still don’t seem to get it.
          Despite what you’ve told us before, it’s not all a game. Some people, tens of thousands of people, depend on their lives and the lives of their teammates with each shot.
          Hence why the military wanted, and is now deploying a cartrige that doubles their hit percentage. Something you said was “wishful thinking”.
          When you hold yourself out as an expert, and then step way outside of your realm of expertise and talk out of your ass about the modern military’s use of firearms, expect to be called out on your bullshit.
          Because it’s not a game. That’s when it actually matters, which was my whole point when I said “more to the point” when tdinva tried to pivot your comment on military use of the 6.5CM to hunting. Your comment wasn’t about hunting, and neither was mine.
          When your pride gets to be a giant ball of shit, try swallowing it in smaller bites.

        9. avatar Josh Wayner says:

          A year ago it was wishful thinking so I don’t know why you’re pressing that point so hard, but it is your only point, so I guess I understand. Writers make predictions all the time and occasionally surprises happen. Am I glad that we have a more effective cartridge than what is available for a given role? Sure. Did I think it would really ever happen? No. But it did and I’m ok with it, no hubris involved, man.

          What is the most surprising is your attitude in a beginners topic that covers the basics of a certain cartridge. I’ve displayed no pride here, nor have I talked out my ass as you say. Unless you are directly involved in the selection process for military cartridges and just didn’t say anything to me or anyone else, then my year old guess was as good as yours, fellow expert. I dare you to find anything factually incorrect in the above article and spell it out for the readers here. Lucky for me, I didn’t make any new predictions for you to pick up on in today’s article.

          What is most troubling, TayTay, is that you display and heavily imply a cavalier attitude about killing people and animals and that isn’t acceptable for beginners to read here. All life deserves respect and you should be careful when impressionable minds read this. Imagine someone at HuffPost reading your comments and responses and running with it as they do. It’s just bad form to write what you did. I’m okay being wrong about a miniscule thing like rifle caliber. What I wouldn’t be okay with is advocating and proudly talking about poor hunting ethics and shooting people around beginners. I don’t think you get that, or perhaps I just need to edit it into smaller pieces for you.

        10. avatar Gator says:

          So I’m not the only one that thinks Taylor is an asshole??

        11. avatar jwtaylor says:

          There you go, that’s the first step, admitting you were wrong. It shouldn’t have been that hard.
          Your entire diatribe about my “cavalier” attitude on killing is just pathetic. Truly worthy of the snowflakes at the HuffPo you are so eager to impress.
          Grow up.
          All life is not sacred. The people I’ve killed did not deserve deep introspection and angst. They deserved a bullet, lots of them. I’m not the least bit sad about a single person I’ve ever killed. These are people who wrapped children in rags soaked in heating oil and set them on fire. Cry for them all you want. Let your friends at HuffPo know you’re sad the bad man killed them.
          I’m sad I couldn’t kill more of them, and faster, before they hurt more people and killed more of my friends.
          As far as the coyotes, the fantasy scenario you describe as a horror, I describe as a victory.

        12. avatar John in AK says:

          You know, jwt, I was absolutely wrong about Schofields not being made in .44-40, you were absolutely right, and I humbly beg your forgiveness, Sir. I promise never to doubt your wisdom in any way at any time ever again. I agree with everything you’ve ever said here, and a POX upon all who have attempted to sully your fabled reputation and veracity with their perfidious falsehoods.
          Please don’t kill me. . .

        13. avatar ironicatbest says:

          @ JWT… I’d would have thot the oil soaked rags would have ruined the flavor of the meat.

        14. avatar jwtaylor says:

          John in AK, thank you. You are now forgiven. You may rise.
          What happened when you corrected me on the .45Colt? Instead of making up some bullshit argument and lying about what you said, I considered your viewpoint, acknowledged you were right, and thanked you for correcting me. Is that special? Nope, it’s just what adults do.
          It’s ok to be wrong. It’s not ok to be wrong and be a dick about it.

        15. avatar Owen says:

          Thank you for your service jwt.

        16. avatar Gator says:

          My Dad and Grandpa, who fought in WW1, WW2 and Korea did not feel the need to constantly boast of their exploits and revel in the glory of being a “hero” and “thank you for your service” stuff that guys like taylor live on a daily basis.

          Dude, joining the military just isn’t that tough.

          And those were real wars, not the sandbox video game/shooting gallery we got going on lately. Picking off overmatched, untrained and overwhelmed third world goofballs just isn’t that difficult.

          You just like to kill shit, from squirrels to humans. And then to be properly recognized for your “heroics”.

        17. avatar jwtaylor says:

          Gator,

          “Picking off overmatched, untrained and overwhelmed third world goofballs just isn’t that difficult.”

          Way to stake your claim to ignorance. There’s a lot of stupid shit on the internet, but you win the prize for today.

        18. avatar jwtaylor says:

          Owen, thank you for the opportunity.

        19. avatar Accur81 says:

          I’d like to see a Josh Waynor vs JWtaylor (JW vs JW!!!!) long range shooting competition. Good times.

        20. avatar Stereodude says:

          Gator, maybe your Dad and Grandpa weren’t so certain of the righteousness of their actions taken on behalf of their country. The typical German soldier was just another guy like them, but fighting for their country but on the opposite side. They weren’t likely evil despicable people. Sure they were fighting for an evil cause, but most the average guy they were shooting at weren’t true believers. In such a scenario, it’s easy to see why someone wouldn’t be boisterous of how many people they killed or what they did in the war.

          In contrast, the typical jihadist scum people like JWT were fighting are evil despicable people (and I hesitate to call them people). Given that, I see no reason why anyone should be ashamed of eliminating those scum from the earth. Some people need killing. There’s little doubt of the righteousness of the actions to end them. Why should he hide his actions like he’s ashamed when questioned?

          Further, JW didn’t lead with it. Someone else started the conversation and opened the door…

  13. avatar Jonathan-Houston says:

    “The debate around 6.5 Creedmoor never seems to end.”

    That’s for damn sure. Fortunately, my paying attention to articles on this irrelevant topic certainly can come to an end. And we’ve reached that here. Out.

    1. avatar tsbhoa.p.jr says:

      no one cares.
      door, ass etc.

  14. avatar Steve says:

    I want to see how well it feeds in a .308 host like a SCAR conversion for a while first before making that big of a jump (given the angle of the case)… but if I bought a RPR, it would probably be in 6.5CM. I rarely add a new caliber to the collection but this one has finally convinced me.

    1. avatar jwtaylor says:

      No matter the caliber, anything in a SCAR feels heavy and overpriced.

    2. avatar Jason(6.5 C)M says:

      They feed well in AR-10s, so I’d expect it to be similar in a SCAR, assuming the feedramp is part of the barrel, like in an AR.

      1. avatar Ironhead says:

        Only difference in feeding a SCAR vs an AR10, the price of the dinner plate. SCAR mags are insanely expensive.

    3. avatar Gov. William J Le Petomane says:

      The .260 should have an advantage over the Creedmoor in that it has more taper in the case.

  15. avatar Lucas D. says:

    I didn’t see a lot of “debate” as much as I saw loads of mockery over a witless, trolling piece of caliber-war autostimulus.

    But six of one, half-dozen of the other, I s’pose.

    1. avatar Creedless No Moor says:

      I believe that’s 6.5 of one, .308 of the other.

      1. avatar Lucas D. says:

        Bah-zing.

        1. avatar Dave in PTC says:

          That was clever. In the same way that the Creedmoor was cleverly created.

          I lol’d and wet my pants. My Flomax might not be working.

      2. avatar Ironhead says:

        Alright . You win this time. I laughed really hard with that one!

  16. avatar bob says:

    She sure aint no 260 Remington.

    The Creedmoor’s only saving grace is that its just short enough to fit in an AR platform.
    Without that, it would just be another 6-7mm round.

    1. avatar Big E says:

      Quite true, but that is a lot. I have no need (or interest) in a “long range” target round/gun. But I have a 6.8spc AR and .308 AR that I use for hunting. I’m mildly interested in getting a 6.5 upper for my AR-10. Not gonna sell my .270, .30-06 etc bolt guns though, just considering getting another AR upper.

    2. avatar Gov. William J Le Petomane says:

      The .260 fit into AR 10 magazines a decade earlier. So the Creedmoor is probably the most pointless cartridge ever invented.

  17. Good article. I’d like to add three rifles to the suggestions (two of wich I own):
    1) T/C Compass in 6.5 Creedmoor. I own this rifle. This accurate bolt-action rifle has everything you need: free-float barrel, 3-lug bolt (for lots of scope clearance), and threaded barrel (for brakes, compensators, flash suppressors, sound suppressors, etc.), and 5-round flush-fitting detachable magazine. It’s compact for its barrel length, a 22″ barrel but only 41″ overall (most other rifles with 22″ barrels are 42″-44″ long). also very inexpensive, only $399 MSRP and a street price even lower! Sure, the stock is just basic black polymer, but it gets the job done, and you can easily upgrade the stock by buying a Boyds hardwood stock (which I did!) for only $139 plus options.

    2) Ruger American Rifle Predator 6.5 Creedmoor. Similar to the T/C Compass, same features (3-lug bolt, threaded barrel, free-float barrel), but costs $130 more than the Compass and is 1″ longer (42″) even with the same 22″ barrel. The stock is a nicer color (OD green rather than black) IMHO, but it’s too lightweight because it’s hollow, so I don’t trust the stock to be rigid enough for this caliber (I’ve owned Ruger American rifles in .223 and .300 BLK, but nothing more powerful). The Ruger only holds 3 rounds (box magazine) or 4 rounds (rotary magazine), while the Compass holds 5 rounds. I prefer the Compass for all these reasons, but the Ruger is also a good rifle, so I considered both before buying the Compass.

    3) T/C Encore barrel in 6.5 Creedmoor. I also own this barrel, custom-made by MatchGradeMachine.com (MGM), 24″ long, stainless steel, threaded 5/8 x 24. Great barrel, although it costs as much as my T/C Compass rifle because T/C Encore barrels are expensive! The advantage of the T/C Encore over a bolt-action rifle are:
    a) Longer barrel (mine is 24″, but you can get them up to 27″ from MGM) for higher velocity, greater range, less noise, and less blast.
    b) Shorter overall length (my T/C Encore is only 38.5″ even with the 24″ barrel! Most bolt-action rifles with a 24″ barrel would be at least 44″ long).
    c) Interchangeable barrels (basic hand tools required, but it’s a 2-minute barrel change).

    Happy shooting!

  18. avatar Dyspeptic Gunsmith says:

    I don’t know what rifle punched that primer of the cartridge case in the photo, but the firing pin detent is off-center from the chamber. Right there, you’ll see the standard deviation on your muzzle velocities go up as a result.

    The firing pin either needs to be bushed, or the rifle has an off-center chamber.

  19. avatar RockOnHellChild says:

    Man, forget all that…

    I don’t want anything to do with anything which has Creed in the title.

    F*ck the band Creed! F*ck the movie Creed! F*ck the perfume Creed! And damn sure f*ck the 6.5 Creedmoor!

    1. avatar Jason(6.5 C)M says:

      So…you’re more of a Rocky fan than Apollo? 😀

      1. avatar RockOnHellChild says:

        Man, don’t get me started on anything with rock in the title…

        F*ck the movie Rocky! F*ck the show Schoolhouse Rock! F*ck that wrestler the Rock. F*ck actual rocks! F*ck that guy RockOnHellChild… Wait… uh, maybe… not that last one.

        1. avatar Geoff PR says:

          “F*ck that guy RockOnHellChild… Wait… uh, maybe… not that last one.”

          Mrs. ROHC may be disappointed to hear that…

  20. avatar A Brit in TX says:

    I heard a 100% true rumor from a friend of a friend that the US Navy are going to bring a couple of the Iowa class battleships back into commission & will re-chamber their 16″ rifles to 6.5 Creedmoor.

    Upon hearing this, Kim Jong-Il went ghostly white, abandoned his nuclear ambitions and was forced to the negotiating table!

    1. avatar jsallison says:

      Sure that wasn’t 600.5 Creedmoor?

  21. avatar Jason(6.5C)M says:

    Jeremy’s recent article was fun and humorous on the 6.5 Creedmoor vs. .308 Win comparison and it ruffled some feathers.

    Do not mock the holy text of our new religion of Creedmoorism! Especially not so close to our high holy day of Creedmas, which we celebrate on June 5th.

  22. avatar Tom in Oregon says:

    I’ve got an Aero Precision in 6.5 CM on the back seat of my truck for s little after work play.
    It’s a darned good shooter.

  23. What will a 6.5 Creedmore do that a 6.5×54 Mannlicher Shoenauer or 6.5×55 Swedish
    Mauser won’t do? We now have five times more rifle calibers than necessary. Why?
    Why keep reinventing the wheel? Some times less is more. Too, I feel the average
    American hunter is both over gunned and even over scoped. Wouldn’t a bolt action
    sporter rifle chambered in 7mm Mauser (7×57) serve as a dual purpose deer/elk
    hunting rifle. And with a simple 4x scope and carry sling. This combination would
    not only be lethal and deadly on deer and elk, but likewise caribou and moose. Shot
    placement is still the key for putting fresh venison and meat in the freezer. Common
    sense, simplified ammo and caliber logistics, and proper bullet placement must take
    precedence over machismo!

    1. avatar Creedless No Moor says:

      In answer to your question in the first sentence, fit in AR-10 magazines.

    2. avatar Curtis in IL says:

      “What will a 6.5 Creedmore do that a 6.5×54 Mannlicher Shoenauer or 6.5×55 Swedish
      Mauser won’t do?”

      Answer: Fit in a .308 magazine. The ease of conversion via barrel replacement was mentioned.

      Why are there so many different cartridges? Why are there so many different cars? Shoes? Bras? Underwear styles? A few things come to mind:
      1) Personal preference is, well, personal.
      2) The undeniable human need to build a better mousetrap.
      3) The ego trip sought by many of us to own the latest and (allegedly) greatest.

      1. avatar Gov. William J Le Petomane says:

        So what does the Creedmoor do that the .260 Rem didn’t do a decade earlier?

        1. avatar Creedless No Moor says:

          Achieve significant adoption by the market?

        2. avatar Dyspeptic Gunsmith says:

          Have decent quality brass.

    3. avatar Southern Cross says:

      As far as I can see the 6.5CM easily fits into the .308 OAL which makes it easier to change between the two with little more than changing a barrel. The .260 with a 140g bullet could exceed the length of a standard. 308.

      Having hunted and done competitive target shooting with 6.5×55, .308, and 8mm Mauser, I can say out to 200 metres where most hunting is done all three perform about the same. I’ve had one-shot-stops on feral pigs with all three.

      For me .308 makes sense in logistics. I already have the dies. I can buy once-fired Winchester brass from full bore shooters at a discount. Reloading is easy, and the performance is very consistent.

      I would consider 6.5CM in a new rifle but I know I’ll be up for additional costs with dies and projectiles.

      1. avatar Gov. William J Le Petomane says:

        According to my Hornady rel oading ma nual, the COL for .308 is 2.81″ vs 2.80″ for .260 Rem. Loading a cartri dge longer than the COL without a custom cut cham ber with more leade will cause a potentially dangerous over-pressure situation. Whoever it is spreading this rumor that the .260 may not work in .308 length magaz ines is full of shit.

        BTW, the COL for the Creedmoor is also 2.80″.

    4. avatar Geoff PR says:

      “Why keep reinventing the wheel?”

      Because the word “New!” is so irresistible to some people they will open their wallets and throw vast sums of money at it…

  24. avatar rt66paul says:

    Being able to reach out and touch someone at a great distance will keep those people from getting any closer (or should). If you don’t care for the light weight non-killing (maybe) damage, you can always have another rifle if(or when) they get closer.

    There is a lot to love about a rifle that will get first blood when(hopefully) they can’t touch you.

    1. avatar bob says:

      300 Winmag.

      1. avatar Rimfire says:

        Bob “gets it”, be like Bob!

  25. avatar ironicatbest says:

    New shooters get this answer from me. Varmints and target.223. Varmints and deer .243 . You going to own only one rifle for a do it all? 30-06. … New is fun, but that old round nose 220 gr. 30 caliber is one penetrating projectile.

    1. avatar tdiinva says:

      +100

  26. avatar former water walker says:

    Wowzers all I wanted was a bolt-action 223…😄😋😏

  27. avatar Robert A says:

    For most folks (most are not shooting out to 1000 yds) the 6.5 Creedmor just is not that practical. Expensive ammo that may or may not be at the closest gun shop. I have a couple of 6.5×55 SE rifles that I enjoy shooting and are very accurate. I guess I am a Luddite, .308 is my main hunting rifle.

  28. avatar Gov. William J Le Petomane says:

    6.5 Creedmoor is a lame imitation of the .260 Remington which accomplished fitting the 6.5×55 Swede into a .308 magazine over a decade earlier. The only thing the Creedmoor has going for it is a savvy marketing plan and a bunch of suckers with more money than brains.

    There, I said it.

    1. avatar Dyspeptic Gunsmith says:

      One of the reasons why the .260 Rem never really took off is that the quality of the brass available was crap. Another was that the bullets used in factory-loaded .260 ammo were predominately hunting bullets and not match or VLD bullets.

      So for target work, the .260 never really went anywhere.

      The 6.5 CM came out with high quality brass, and many of the loads right out of the gate were using match-grade or VLD bullets.

      One of the things you have to remember is this: Remington has done a really crappy job of introducing new cartridges – and that’s not just the .260, either.

      1. avatar Gov. William J Le Petomane says:

        ‘So for target work, the .260 never really went anywhere.’

        According to the NRA it dominates the high power silhouette competition.

        http://competitions.nra.org/documents/pdf/compete/silh-natpdf/17-high-power.pdf

        Poor brass quality is a legitimate reason for Hornady to start producing high quality brass, not to come out with yet another boutique cartridge to clog up the market. I would have to give Hornady the nod over Remington though when it comes to marketing.

        1. avatar Dyspeptic Gunsmith says:

          You’re correct in that one aspect – of producing better quality brass for the .260 as being the road to go. Lapua did this – you can buy .260 Rem brass from Lapua that has it all over the Remington brass:

          http://www.lapua.com/en/reloading-components/cases/260-remington

          Remington has just done a horrific & incompetent job of marketing new rounds for decades. The last truly successful round Remington marketed was the 7mm RemMag.

          To be fair, Winchester hasn’t been far behind in terms of incompetence in the 6.5mm caliber. The .264 WinMag was the smallest of the trio of the .458, .338 and .264 Winchester Magnums, and perhaps the least loved because it seemed a) you could never get the damn thing to group well, and b) it burned barrels like a bonfire.

          I’m on the record here at TTAG as saying that most new rounds developed and sold since WWII are complete marketing hype. Anyone who doubts me can crawl back through my postings and see my splenetic rants on the subject. I’ll point out that when I, a gunsmith with access to all the tools, gunsmith discounts, etc, decides to build rifles for myself, what cartridges do I choose for my hunting rifles? 9.3×62 Mauser, .35 Whelen, etc. Old stuff. The 9.3 dates back to 1905, for example. I don’t do new “magnum” nonsense for my own guns, and when people ask me for my “one gun to hunt it all” recommendation, my instant response is a .30-06.

          That said, from my examination of the 6.5CM, they have threaded a needle here. The 6.5-06 was a barrel burner (almost as bad as the .264 WM). The .260 was incompetently produced, marketed poorly, always in the shadow of the 7mm08 for hunting (the 7-08 is, IMO, one of the best light hunting rifle rounds out there, bar none), and the 6.5×47 Lapua was marketed to precision shooters, and didn’t get off the ground that far in the general shooting market in the US. The 6.5×55 had the bolt face diameter issue.

          As for the use of the .260 in silhouette: The .260 could work perfectly well there, as could the 7mm08. Silhouette isn’t shooting for groups, so the .260’s issues (poor grouping due to inconsistent necks) don’t really come into play in that form of competition. For the long-range tight-group shooting that the 6.5 CM was going after, the .260 wasn’t going to cut it. The other 6.5mm “hot round” in long range shoot-for-groups was the 6.5-284, which is (again) a barrel burner (typical barrel lifespans of about 1200 rounds).

          Here’s a telling thing about cartridge design between the EU and US: When Lapua designed the 6.5×47, they gave the case a long case neck – very long, if you stack it next to a .260 Rem.

          What does a long case neck do?

          It allows you to “chase the lands forward” as you burn up the throat in your barrel. As your rifling wears out in the throat, you seat your bullet into the case sticking out a tad further, to keep the jump to the lands reasonably consistent. IOW, the 6.5×47 was designed to deal with the barrel wear issue, to bring the total cost of shooting down. It was also designed to use a small rifle primer, which (the theory goes) should allow you to run higher pressured in a smaller capacity case. As a result of some of these things, the 6.5×47 is currently the hot ticket in precision rifle matches, 300m matches in Europe, and has found some good acceptance in F-open at 800 and 1,000 yards. The 6.5CM is starting to make inroads in all of these areas. The .260 isn’t really a round given much consideration in any of these pursuits.

          The 6.5CM has a case capacity of a few more grains, but it uses a large rifle primer. Well, guess what? Lapua will be coming out with 6.5CM brass with small primer pockets and smaller flash holes, in order to decrease muzzle velocity dispersion. The small primer 6.5CM might yet be the best overall 6.5 round out there – we’ll have to see.

          All of this is the fault of the Swedes. If they had made the 6.5×55 have a case head diameter of 0.473, as the 8×57 Mauser and the .30-06 have, then all this would be moot; we’d all be comparing our pet 6.5×55 loads. But noooooo…. they wanted to be oh-so-special. These are the small details on which the future success of a cartridge depend.

        2. avatar Gov. William J Le Petomane says:

          You may have convinced me of the existence of a raison d’etre for the 6.5×47 Lapua.

          But the .260 still seems to me to have everything over the Creedmoor with the possible exception of bullet weights well above 140gr, which I don’t see having an advantage even out to 1000 yards, since you’re losing more muzzle velocity than the higher BC is worth. At least now that quality brass can be had for the .260. For semi autos the .260 has more taper so theoretically it should feed and extract more reliably. With all due respect for your comment above, it seems that the thicker brass at the neck and the ability to make brass from .308 cases would be a significant advantage to reloaders. Since the Creedmoor became the latest fad the range and availability of ammunition definitely tilts it’s way, but I just can’t see the reason for the cartridge to have been invented in the first place. If I’m missing something, please share. Is there any reason that a .260 with quality brass won’t group like the Creedmoor?

          I had not realized that the 6.5×55 does not have the same case head diameter as the rest of the Mausers. I always thought the .257 Roberts should get a little more love because (unlike the rest of the Mausers) it’s COL is shorter than .308 (even though most of the rifles I see chambered in it are .30-06 length actions). An AR10 in .257R would be pretty cool, albeit expensive to shoot.

        3. avatar Dyspeptic Gunsmith says:

          I don’t see any reason why a cleaned-up .260 Rem wouldn’t group. It’s launching the same high quality pills, and if you’re using high quality brass (ie, Lapua, or Norma – both are making .260 Rem brass now), and you’re going through all the procedures to make high quality ammo, I can’t see why the .260 wouldn’t work just as well.

          But here’s the rub for modern shooters, who seem to be very stubborn in their refusal to learn to reload: You’ll be easily able to buy high-quality factory 6.5CM ammo, whereas most all of the factory ammo from the larger producers of loaded ammo will be hunting ammo of mediocre quality. There are high quality factory loadings out there, but you’ll have to mail order them – HSM, Black Hills, CorBon, etc. I have the ability to just drive a bit east to go buy this ammo, but most people don’t.

          This is akin to the .280 AI vs. 7mm RemMag dispute of 50 years ago. The .280 AI cartridge was out there, getting attention and gunmakers interested, then Remington comes out with the 7mm RemMag, with a magnum boltface, the stupid belted case, etc. The .280 (AI and not) both sink into obscurity. Pure marketing at work. Was there anything wrong with the .280? Not a thing. It was just a necked-down .30-06; lots of brass available, it was an easy transition, it was so easy it was like falling off a log.

          Didn’t matter. Once the marketing machines got spun up, it was over for the .280. Today, I can go down to my metal recycler/steel monger and root through 55 gallon drums of used rifle brass. Want to know which cartridge I find more of? 7mm RemMag or .30-06? You guessed it. The 7mm RemMag. I can find oodles of shot-once 7mmRM cases, to only a few surplus ’06 cases. .280 Rem? Forget it – they’re like finding unicorns in a horse pasture around here.

          If Remington wanted to own the .260 market, they had a chance. They jumped in front of A-Square when SAAMI standardized the round (being the jerks they are), they shipped mediocre brass and ammo, the round languished in the commercial market. Along comes Hornady, who comes out with a slightly different (but not hugely different in results) round, markets the hell out of it, ships good brass, does all the tie-ins, etc, and here we are. If Remington wanted the .260 to be the 6.5mm round of choice, they could have marketed it the way they did the 7mm RemMag 50 years ago. Don’t blame Hornady, don’t blame me. Blame Remington for the 6.5CM even getting a foothold.

        4. avatar Gov. William J Le Petomane says:

          Perhaps the .260 is seeing somewhat of a resurgence on the Creedmoor’s coattails. A quick check at Midway found 8 match loads from Hornady, Federal, Barnes, Berger, Bl ack Hills and Gorilla.

          I’ve never shot either, but I’d plop my money down on the .280 over the 7mm Mag for the same reason the 6.5s are gaining such popularity – lower rec oil.

          Personally I recently bought a .260 because it was what the ri fle I wanted was chambered in. ( https://www.lipseys.com/itemdetail.aspx?itemno=RUKM77RSI260REM ). Definitely more of a hu nting oriented weapon than a match weapon but I did put a Leupold Mark AR 3-9x with MRAD turrets that I figure gets me out to 800 yard (6mils elevation and 2 for 10mph windage, +2.5″ at 100yards) if I ever find a ra nge around here that goes that far. Anyway, I’ve long thought the Creedmoor was superlative and unnecessary.

  29. avatar Ralph says:

    I’m thinking that TTAG has become a Creedwhore. 🙂

  30. avatar Rimfire says:

    I’m going to wait for the 6.5 Creedmoor rimfire due out any time now………..

  31. avatar GS650G says:

    I like my .308 guns.

  32. avatar Paul McMichael says:

    Yawn. Like Jeff Cooper said, and I paraphrase, “We don’t need new calibers. We need better rifles to shoot what we already have from.” When Remington announced the development of the 8mm Remington Magnum Elmer Keith stood up and asked, “What’s it good for?” That caliber is not much more than a footnote today. Firearms manufacturers are in business to sell firearms. If what you have now will do everything you need it to do; why buy something new? Oh, that’s right, convince you that this new superdooper caliber is something you can’t do without.

    Here’s some news. An elk is still the same animal it was 200 years ago. So is a whitetail. So is a man.

    If I can’t buy ammunition for it in any Mom & Pop backwoods store, you can keep it. Logistics, you know.

    I know Cooper, Keith, Jordan, Skelton and others are old school, but nothing they knew and passed on has really changed.

    Read them.

    1. avatar ironicatbest says:

      I believe as deer are constantly hit by vehicles they’re bound to evolve an armor similar to an armadillo..

  33. avatar New Continental Army says:

    “The time-honored .30-06 and .270 are far superior hunting cartridges that are accessible to most shooters and offer much heavier bullets and better muzzle velocity for the bullet weight.“

    God damn right. 30-06 is a mans cartridge, used by real men to win World War Two.

    I’ve made plenty of jokes here about 6.5 godmode, but in reality it’s a boutique round. It will fade into obscurity within the decade. That doesn’t mean it’s s bad round, but that’s just the truth. I’ve lived through several of these new fangled hot rounds. Most of them you can’t find anymore. In 50 years everyone will still primarily be shooting 5.56, 7.62, .308, 30-06, and .300WM. And there will still be boneheads screaming on the internet about how .308 is fat stupid and slow because they were touched by a .308 as a child or something.

  34. I believe the military is switching it’s 308 sniper rifles to 6.5 creedmore. So I think that’s says alot.

    1. avatar Ralph says:

      Yes, it says that the military brass is a collection of @ssh0les.

  35. avatar Marshall Rice says:

    Not a lot to disagree with, but I believe the 6.5 with 140+ gr bullets is a better long range hunting round than the writer gives it credit for. With 143 ELD-X bullets it far out penetrates 308 with 150-165 gr bullets. In fact you have to move up to a 180 gr bullet at 308 speeds to match the penetration of the 6.5,. I’d shoot any game with my 6.5 I’d shoot with my 308, and at the same ranges. Yea, my 30-06 will do the same thing farther away, but I moved to 308 years ago when I figured out it had 25% less recoil and would still kill stuff farther than I could shoot. The 6.5 CM reduces that recoil even more and I don’t think it gives up a thing to 308.

    For the guys who have been using 6.5X55 and 260 for years, congratulations for figuring out how great the 6.5’s were before the rest of us. Both are great rounds and if someone owns one there is little incentive to trade. But for a new buyer getting into the 6.5 game there is no reason to choose anything other than the Creedmoor version.

    1. avatar Gov. William J Le Petomane says:

      Penetration is far too dependent on bullet construction to make blanket statements about caliber. Shooting a 1000 lb bull elk with a 6.5 Creedmoor loaded with a 140gr Hornady A-max is not going to produce the penetration you’re looking for. That said, with identical bullet construction a higher sectional density will produce deeper penetration, and a 140gr 6.5 pill has about the same SD as a 190gr .308.

      I won’t dispute that the 6.5 is capable of taking larger game than deer – Scandinavians have been hunting moose with the Swede for decades and the .30-30 has probably taken more moose in eastern Canada and New England than any other cartridge – but the .308 will simply hit harder out to 600 yards than a 6.5 Swede/Creedmoor/.260 Rem/etc.

  36. avatar Big Al says:

    6.5 Shmeedmore… I don’t get the hype. OK, it fits on the AR15 platform. Big deal! 260 Remington is a better cartridge with the 6.5×55 as it’s bigger brother. Put all 3 next to each other and all have the same ballistics. I’ll stick with the 260 and “The Swede”. 👍

    1. avatar Stereodude says:

      AR-10 platform, not AR-15.

  37. avatar koolaidguzzler says:

    These caliber-war comments are so tired and juvenile.
    Arguing over calibers are a sucker game for juvenile minds.
    The grown ups know better.

  38. avatar TokenOkie says:

    Dyspeptic-
    Years ago, Jim Carmichael, the shooting editor of Outdoor Life, did an in-depth comparison of the commonly available rifle cartridges of the day. His intent was to identify the “one best all around North American big game cartridge”. Interestingly, he landed squarely on the 280 Remington. Given your comment above (with which I agree, btw), I wonder how you feel about the 280 Ackley Improved. I don’t recall the exact ballistic differences between the two, but was always curious if Ackley made the best all-around cartridge better or if the difference wasn’t worth the hassle. Your thoughts would be appreciated!

    1. avatar Dyspeptic Gunsmith says:

      The .280 AI was a heck of a cartridge a couple of decades ago, before several of the most recent powders have been introduced. With the .280 AI, you got within spitting distance of the 7mm RemMag’s performance – like 100 to 150 fps at the muzzle. The stock .280 would typically be 250 to 300 fps slower than the 7mm RemMag.

      Enter powders like Re17 – and much of the reason for the AI chambering is lost, because powders like Re17 allow you to get higher velocities without jacking up the pressures too far.

      Is the AI chambering still good? Heck yes. Is it necessary? Not as much any more, if you’re willing to explore these new powders.

      1. avatar TokenOkie says:

        Thanks for your thoughts- I hadn’t considered throwing the effects of the newer powders into the mix. Honestly, I only ever considered the AI due to the ease of fireforming the cases using 280 Rem rounds.

        1. avatar Dyspeptic Gunsmith says:

          That’s one of the GREAT things about the .280 AI. I’m making a .280 for myself on a post-64 Win70 action (ie, this will be a “working rifle”).

          If you want to go with the AI, by all means, go for it. I’ve got no beefs with the .280 AI. All I’m saying is that much of the gains that it gives you are being reduced by powder choice today. If, however, you prefer to use 4831 or 4350, hey, it can still be justified. I know a guy who reloads who has 24 or 32 pounds of 4831 and 4350 combined, and he reckons he’s going to ride those powders until he’s dead – because he knows everything there is to know about those powders, they work for him, he’s developed pet loads over the last 45 years, and that’s that. It’s not that he’s a luddite – he’s just arrived at a point where he can spend a minimum amount of time reloading for the maximum benefit. More power to him. For guys like that, the AI produces results.

  39. avatar Jack D Lunsford says:

    The 6.5×55 is & has been my round of choice for over 30 years. I have taken down game at an excess of 600 yards with one shot from my military 6.5, with a Norma 129 grain plastic expander point!!! That’s how old these rounds are. They r not called ballistic tips, they are called plastic expander points. I have a handful left & they can not be found anymore. 6.5 creedmore, I’ll pass!!! Accuracy & shot placement is the key! I have never shot a rifle as accurate as my 6.5×55 Sweedish Mauser! PERIOD!!!!!!

  40. avatar YourPlanetIsAToilet says:

    And then there’s the 224 Valkyrie!

  41. avatar Joe Sanders says:

    260 rem just seems better in every way…….I own one in Ruger m77 ss compact and it shoots very very well.

  42. avatar Kaban says:

    >>The 6.5 Creedmoor cartridge is essentially, an Americanized version of the 6.5x55mm Mauser round

    6.5 Creedmoor is, first and foremost .260 (already “Americanized 6.5”) and 6.5×47 having an offspring with some excellent marketing.

    >>It is within the same performance envelope as rounds like the .257 Roberts, .243 Win, 7mm-08, and other midsized rifle cartridges.

    I hate you number-ignoring types. These days, anyone can go to, say, Hornady’s website and judge for him/herself. And you know what? Suddenly 243 Win deliver mere 810 ft/lbs at 500y, while 6.5CM deliver 1300 and 7-08 1380. A hell of performance envelope, I should say.

    Now, .270 Win, by virtue of having a case long enough to make a knife sheath from, beats 6.5CM with comparable bullet weight flat. At the cost of…yes, barrel life.

    As a sidenote, had you ever shot out a barrel of 6.5×55 SE? STR or similar rifle with modern Swede loading, I mean. The pressure figure is nice and all, but it does not uphold you comparison. 308 Win runs 62000 PSi SAAMI max, and offers twice round count? Come on…

  43. avatar DaveDetroit says:

    But how does it compare to the 7mm Remington Magnum?

    1. avatar Dyspeptic Gunsmith says:

      The 7mmRM has the ability to move a heavier bullet with a higher Bc at a higher velocity.

      That’s because a) the 7mm RM is a long-action cartridge, and b) it’s a “magnum,” with a 0.538 case head diameter. It just holds lots more powder.

      So when you’re topping out in the 140+ gr bullets in the 6.5’s, the 7mm is launching 180+ gr bullets with higher Bc’s.

  44. avatar Doc Samson says:

    Just wanted to wait a sufficient amount of time for the hate to die down before declaring my love for the 6.5!!! I luvs ya, baby! I’m not ashamed to say I’m a bit of a recoil wimp. Had a PTR 91 that I just could not make consistent hits with, i.e. some days were decent, other days were terrible and it was too much like playing golf. I got tired of trying to figure out how much of was me, how much of it was the ammo, and how much was the rifle. Sold it and bought a Savage FCP-10 in 6.5. Second time out with that rifle, at 100 yards, I laid a 3 shot group at .3 inches. Got a little too excited and shots 4 & 5 opened it up to .95 but I’m happy as hell and I don’t care what anyone else thinks!

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