Self-Deploying At Your Kid’s School Is A Bad Idea

Self-Deploying At Your Kid's School A Bad Idea

Image via Idaho State Journal

About a week ago in Idaho, parents rushed to a local high school. They had heard rumors of an armed student on a rampage. A number of good Samaritans showed up with their guns, some even carrying AR-15 rifles, ready for a fight.  Thankfully, when police showed up they used good judgement and nobody left with any extra holes.

Clearly, “self-deploying” at your kid’s school poses serious problems. At the same time, the protective instinct runs deep in most parents.

Last week’s incident happened in the small town of Arimo, Idaho. The Idaho State Journal has the story:

ARIMO, Idaho — Bannock County Sheriff Lorin Nielsen wants the public to know that arming yourself and responding to a school threat incident will likely put you in harm’s way and hinder law enforcement’s response.

The longtime sheriff made those statements after several armed Marsh Valley High School parents showed up at the school on Wednesday morning when word got out that the school had been placed on lockdown because of a student who authorities believed was possibly carrying a pistol and had allegedly attacked and threatened his sister, the Idaho State Journal reports.

Nielsen said some of the parents who responded to the school after hearing about the lockdown were armed with AR-15 rifles. One parent who was carrying an unholstered pistol got to the school at the same time as the first sheriff’s deputies and state police and had a confrontation with a state trooper, the sheriff said.

Nielsen said encountering the armed parent at the school was very stressful for the trooper who stopped the man and told him to leave school grounds until law enforcement had the situation under control. Nielsen said the parent later profusely apologized to the trooper.

Very stressful?  Sheriff Nielsen has a way with words.

Nielsen, whose law enforcement career spans four decades, said he’s never seen armed parents respond to a lockdown before and he wants to make it clear that doing so is a very bad idea.

The old lawman can thank the Broward County Sheriff’s Department for the parents’ reaction. Americans’ trust in law-enforcement to respond aggressively and courageously took a big hit courtesy of “Coward” County Deputy Scot Peterson and his fellow deputies. Rather than enter the school and stop the shooting, they stayed outside Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School as innocents were slughtered inside.

“Do not self-deploy to assist us,” Nielsen said. “We believed we had a kid who had just injured his sister and who had a gun. This wasn’t a test. We believed there was the possibility of an active shooter.”

“Do not self-deploy to assist us.” That stands as pretty good advice, whether you live in Bannock County Idaho or Broward County Florida.

In today’s world, police will roll up on an active threat call with one mission: run towards the sound of chaos and stop the threat (OK, maybe not in Broward County). The lawmen probably don’t have a good suspect description. After all, witness reports will come from panicked and excited people. Anyone officers see with a gun and without a uniform and/or a badge will earn the “threat” designation.

If that person with a gun is you, then you become a potential target. You might have the noblest of intentions, but those won’t make you bulletproof.

Not only that, but what happens if you mistakenly shoot someone who isn’t the bad guy? It won’t be easy to live with yourself if you shoot an innocent teacher, student, or an off-duty cop who responded.

With good fortune and good cops, you may get a brief warning to drop your heater. If you suddenly turn in a startled reflex or don’t hear their commands, the police may light you up or burn you down. No matter your preferred description, it won’t be good.

In active shooter incidents outside of schools – or say a mall or theater – you face a real risk of a fellow good guy with a gun mistaking you for a bad guy. While rare, cops do shoot fellow cops by mistake.

Obviously, good parents will risk their lives to save their kids. Parents have a lot more incentive to stop a spree killing in their kids’ school than does a random cop.  So what can you do that’s a lot safer than running into an active shooter situation?

Don’t wait for a problem to happen. Get involved now. Your local PD or sheriff’s office will (or should) know the issues they face in school security. Ditto for school administrators. Talk with them and get their input on how and when you can help. But whatever you do, don’t show up armed and uninvited in the middle of a problem. Bad things will probably happen for all involved.

comments

  1. avatar ozzallos says:

    Of course, the self deploy incidents might not even be an issue if the response of law enforcement werent in question. If the cops aren’t going in to help kids, maybe they should leave the job to somebody that will.

    1. As a Cop arriving at a School Shooting Incident, see a bunch of Plain Clothed People with Firearms trained at the school. And “Not” knowing any of them by sight, what would be You’re (i.e. the Cop’s) immediate reaction would be.

      1. avatar Soccerchainsaw says:

        We have a Dept. of Redundancy Dept. violation plus a “your”/”you’re” violation in same post.

        1. @ sorccerchainsaw

          Excuse I, and you write in Perfect English all the time!

      2. avatar RA-15 says:

        Say what ??

      3. avatar ozzallos says:

        …which nothing to do with my point concerning the increasing lack of confidence in police reaction to school shootings.

        As former military and current government, im well aware of what your reactions should be. Feel free to expound on them. But also realize the behavior of your contemporaries, aided by ineffectual government regulations, has created this issue. When law enforcement wont enter to end the threat and has no obligation to help the average citizen, you get this.

        1. Then ANY Government Regulation is ineffectual if nobody enforces it.

    2. avatar Missouri_Mule says:

      “a well regulated militia being required …”
      The problem seems to be that they were not “well regulated”

      1. avatar George T says:

        Even more distressing, now there are questions about who was doing the shooting in Vagus. Sounds like your police were honest and doing their job. I would say that from the sound of the intent of the citizens if you would have had a trigger-happy police officer he/she would not have lasted long and that is the way that it should be. It would be really hard not to see that the people of the community had responded and were not the person of question.

      2. avatar George T says:

        when the Constitution was written, well regulated meant to operate smoothly, as designed. What it did not mean is to be controlled by some outside force or authority. When you research the meaning of militia at the time the Constitution was written it is easy to understand that it referred to the people. The National Guard (State Militia) did not come into being until much later.

        1. avatar Sam I Am says:

          “What it did not mean is to be controlled by some outside force or authority. ”

          A small misunderstanding we believe to our detriment.

          Article 1, Section 8
          “The Congress shall have the power….To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union , suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;…To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;”

          Sounds like a bunch of being “…controlled by some outside force or authority”.

  2. avatar General Zod says:

    John, you do realize you’re parroting all of the left’s rationale for preventing teachers from carrying concealed, right? “They’re not police”, “The cops will shoot the wrong person”, “What if the teacher shoots someone who’s not the shooter”…

    1. avatar AnOregonian says:

      Definitely my thoughts too, reading the last 7 or so paragraphs.

    2. avatar Bloving says:

      Hmmm… I’d rather focus on the detail that is important due to it not happening – No one got shot. The situation could have been ugly… but it wasn’t. It scared some people, police included, but they all came out of it okay.
      I guess what John is saying is to remind us as gun owners to do the smart thing… if for no other reason than because the bigots who hate us are hoping we’ll do the dumb thing.
      Never let your guard down. We are being watched closely by those who hate us and they just love it when one if us screws up.
      🤠

      1. avatar billy-bob says:

        Thankfully this happened in Idaho, had it been in one of our bastions of democrat utopia, the parents would have likely all been ventilated.

        1. avatar George says:

          When the police start to ventilate the people it is time to remind them who they work for.

    3. avatar binder says:

      “John, you do realize you’re parroting all of the left’s rationale for preventing teachers from carrying concealed,”

      Damn, if the teachers care enough to carry, they should at least train with local law enforcement to be much more effective, don’t you think?

      Teachers should carry (the ones with the right attitude) AND train with the Cops. It’s that simple.

      1. avatar MeRp says:

        That implies that the hypothetical teachers that have the guts and determination to carry ALSO (somehow) have sufficient excess time to also train with the police.

        Stats have shown that having the gun there is the biggest difference maker; why put any road blocks in front of that? Offer training? Sure. Require it, though? Nah, bad idea.

        1. avatar JD says:

          IIRC teachers get a three month vacation off work, that would be a perfect time for training. And yes any teacher willing to carry a gun at school would be willing to give up some of their summer.

  3. avatar Ed Rogers says:

    As always, context is everything. I can’t say I advocate for openly fielding an M-15 but having one available might not be a bad thing.

    As responsible firearms owners, we need to find a functional balance.

  4. avatar Gov. William J Le Petomane says:

    Charles Whitman says ‘leave your g uns at home!’

    1. avatar former water walker says:

      You win the interwebz Gov.!😄😄😄I would add “unless you’re in Broward Co.”

    2. avatar Paul McMichael says:

      You know, I thought of that!

      1. avatar Sam I Am says:

        A lot of people have no anchor for the Whitman comment. Or the subtlety it holds.

        1. avatar Big Bill says:

          Well, I had to look it up.
          But then, I only have 8K of memory, and never upgraded.

        2. avatar Sam I Am says:

          “But then, I only have 8K of memory, and never upgraded.”

          I got the same problem. Maybe that explains a lot of things.

        3. avatar randy says:

          I remember him very well. He got up in the bell tower and killed students with a bolt action rifle. That was the beginning of live mass coverage by the MSM.

        4. avatar Sam I Am says:

          The “sublety” is that armed civilians quickly pinned him down using readily available firearms. The counter fire allowed others to maneuver into place to neutralize Whitman.

          And there were no complaints by law enforcement that civilians with guns were more dangerous than the guy on the tower.

  5. avatar Bloving says:

    It may be a while before we have the confidence in our police, teachers and school administrators needed to give us peace of mind sending out children into their care. They could all start by no longer discriminating against those teachers who wish to be armed at work…. but if they don’t start there, then they haven’t really started at all.
    🤠

  6. avatar Setnakhte says:

    Do not self-deploy? So private citizens should only bear arms when “invited” at the behest of their betters? I think we’ve seen where this is going…

  7. avatar TweetyRex says:

    The Supreme Court has ruled in the past that police have NO OBLIGATION to protect any individuals, only to enforce laws. With Coward County fresh in everyone’s mind, why would law enforcement expect anything else from parents?

  8. avatar Ralph says:

    “arming yourself and responding to a school threat incident will likely put you in harm’s way and hinder law enforcement’s response.”

    What response is that, Deputy Fife? Standing around waiting for the shooting to stop and the victims to slowly bleed out because you want your cops to stand down?

    We’ll protect ourselves because we don’t have a choice. You and your ilk only care about your pensions, your power, your graft and getting home safe at night. You sure as hell don’t care about us.

    Cops who breach have the right to preach. You REMFs can just FOAD.

    1. avatar Eric in Oregon says:

      Damn right, and well said sir.

  9. avatar Smith Wesson says:

    This article is stupid, bait click trash.

    1. avatar Sam I Am says:

      “This article is stupid, bait click trash.”

      Discussing situational awareness is never a waste. Not every gun owner is an operator, operating operationally. Some of us use articles like this to check our thinking about certain pre-conceived notions about how we would respond to given circumstances. Also, it is never a waste to remind gun owners that in an active shooter situation, the police view everyone with a weapon to be a possible shooter.

      Analyzing presumptions, assumptions, and what you know that just ain’t so is a good mental exercise to assist responsible gun owners remaining “good guys with a gun”.

      1. avatar RA-15 says:

        Well said.

      2. avatar Toni says:

        while i agree with what you are saying Sam i also have to add that at least here in australia the average ISPC shooter would be far better in one of these situations and keep a cooler head than 90% of our cops. our cops are woefully under-trained with their sidearms and while in the US i “suspect” they may be somewhat better due to the fact that many there train regularly regardless of profession i still would not have that much faith in them. personally i dont have much faith in anything govt related in any way

        1. avatar Sam I Am says:

          The competency of armed response is a portion of thought analysis. The major object of contemplation is to understand what an individuals actions may cause; actions that have not been fully explored for proper risk analysis. Is the likelihood of fratricide more or less likely if the defenders are trained? Or not? Is the misunderstanding of a persons actions likely to worsen the “active shooter” situation (increase unintended casualties)? Can the defenders coordinate a response that will result if fewer deaths and injuries to innocents?

          The intention is not to discourage anyone, only to provide stressless time to project different scenarios, and be self-aware. In the Whitman episode, mass shootings were not so frequent. People were not suspicious of “civilians” bearing arms publicly (rifles, shot guns, etc). Thus, the people on/in the street who were armed were never considered a threat to the mass of people. The cops could, with near certainty, recognize who was shooting at what, and act accordingly. Those conditions do not pertain today. In a small town, or neighborhood where most people know each other, unintended targets may not be a significant consideration. Change venues, and everything might change.

          Back to competency: I had the “pleasure” of being on the local gun range when six police were practicing (not in uniform, but I knew who they were). Perhaps it is more dangerous to have uniformed officers attempting to quell an active shooter.

      3. avatar Justconcerned says:

        Sam….i enjoyed your article, and especially the comment about the range, and the officers who were training. We had several officers at a training session, and am not picking on them by saying, but we witnessed, they spray bullets. A Local PD department.

        1. avatar Sam I Am says:

          “T’is a puzzlement”.
          – Y.Brenner

  10. avatar Jeff O. says:

    Contrast that with a district in northern Idaho looking to get armed security in it’s 11 schools because 911 response times were up to 22 minutes.

    1. avatar Gov. William J Le Petomane says:

      That’s still several times faster than Detroit.

  11. avatar Giants, Gumpkins & Snarks oh my! says:

    Maybe if schools were properly protected, parents wouldn’t feel the need to act upon their biological instinct to defend their offspring with their life.

    Maybe when those charged with the “guardianship” of our children take their safety at heart (i.e. actually actively *protect* them), parents won’t have that perfectly natural instinct triggered.

    Trusting the safety of your kids to other people is the bad idea, truly, as they’ve proven themselves not competent of their charge and thus should not have your trust.

    1. avatar Green Mtn. Boy says:

      This !

    2. avatar Gordon in MO says:

      I suspect that most school administrators across the nation are well indoctrinated leftist philosophy because they adamantly resist anything that would actually protect the kids. NO firearms in schools is their mantra.

      Coward County, Fl shows the indoctrination is spreading to law enforcement.

  12. avatar Michael in AK says:

    Good guys got there the same time as the cops….good thing we spend tons of money on dispatch centers and radios….

  13. avatar Dennis McCarty says:

    I would do the same along w telling 911 operator I am armed & I’m wearing a red T-shirt & blue jeans or whatever. Police may not show up for 20 minutes. My kid (or anyone else’s) is NOT going to die if I can help it. I would also call/text every police officer/deputy I know.
    Keep your head on a swivel & be prepared for anything at all times. Evil exists & we cannot ignore it anymore.

  14. avatar Ralph says:

    The previous post — “Report: Broward County Sheriff Capt. Kept EMTs Out of Stoneman Douglas High After Shooting”

    Yeah, Sheriff Nielsen, we certainly wouldn’t want to hinder that.

  15. avatar real american says:

    Do not self deploy? Tell that to Steven Williford. This article is trash. Oh no! somebody’s shooting up the school… don’t worry, just call the cops, they’ll be there in 10 minutes to save the day…

  16. avatar Ing says:

    Bad idea? Maybe. Or maybe it saves a whole bunch of lives. It could go either way.

    Personally, I like the idea of a bunch of armed parents beating the police to the punch to protect their own kids. That’s America in its ultimate form.

    1. @ Ing

      And how many of those concerned parents will be laying on a Morgue’s SS Table “After” the Police show up Not Knowing Who the Shooters Are. Are you going to be wearing a Special Vest that says “Don’t Shot Me, I’m Friendly”.

      1. avatar Muhmawsur says:

        It isn’t complicated you damn bootlicker. If the police follow the reasonable standard of assuming that a genuine threat involves the bad guy pointing a gun at them/shooting at them or the kids. They need to stop acting like they have a monopoly on the right to carry or respond in defense. We’d manage fine without the revenue generating thugs as evidenced by the “unprofessional ” parents dropping what they were doing, arming, and beating “the professionals” to the scene. Our country got along fine without police departments for many years you know.

      2. avatar Muhmawsur says:

        I bet Charles Witman wishes sheep like you were around when he committed his crimes

        1. As I recall, Charles Whitman, was ~270-feet up a Bell Tower Shooting Down while those on the Ground had to Shoot Up and Over a Wall protecting Charles Whitman. Somewhat different scenario.

        2. avatar 4808 N says:

          Clock tower. You’re ensconced in violations today. I doubt even JW can fix you.

      3. avatar Ing says:

        How many parents would be lying in a morgue afterward, you ask? Maybe some, maybe none. There’s no way to know.

        Let me ask you a question: How many children would be lying in a morgue afterward? There’s no way to know…but how many would be acceptable to you?

        My point is, we all have a fundamental, natural human right to at least TRY to defend our loved ones. The possibility of a negative outcome doesn’t change that.

        1. “To many Chefs stirring the Same Batter”! I suspect that the Police Officer also have Children in the Same School. How can they (police) do their jobs effectively, when they don’t know how the Extra Gun Tooting Parents are going to React to any Load Sound coming for the School.

        2. avatar Ing says:

          The police took on that extra degree of difficulty when they signed up for the job. They’re supposed to be professionals, so they can deal. No parent needs to abdicate any rights just to make someone else’s profession just a little bit easier.

  17. avatar Cruzo1981 says:

    Police have no legal obligation to put themselves at risk to help the public, but they want our trust with our most precious citizens. Either the law changes or this will continue to happen.

  18. avatar Green Mtn. Boy says:

    That as the case may be however Coward County Sheriffs department,er I mean Broward County Sheriffs department gives law enforcement in general a bad image,leaves citizens wondering if there local law enforcement are going to respond or hide.

    1. avatar Geoff PR says:

      Cop who shot the other cop 9 times – “Dude! Are you OK?”

      Cop who was shot 9 times -“No.”

      He (somehow) survived…

      1. avatar CZJay says:

        I think he shot him with a 1911.

        He wasn’t supposed to be there in the first place, but he wanted to get in on the action because he is leadership. He retired before getting fired in order to continue getting paid for his outstanding service.

        That’s one reason why I don’t think it’s a good idea to teach cops to fire on sight of a gun or when they hear the word gun. They will shoot their own coworkers without realizing what they are doing because they’ve been conditioned like animals. Shoot first, then come up with an excuse second.

  19. avatar Anner says:

    Big difference between the two: the teacher is dressed like a teacher, armed with a handgun, already inside the school, and stands a solid chance of engaging the BG before LE. I’d call that a low probability of misidentification. A parent rushing inside a school with any firearm, potentially dressed in a way that stands out as odd (you never know when it’s gonna kick off; maybe you’re a blue collar dude in a jumpsuit, or maybe you work nights and you threw on a greasy shirt and shorts), holding whatever firearm(s) they grabbed on their way, is likely to be arriving either at the same time or slightly after LE. So a cop is outside the school or just inside the schools first set of doors and sees an adult sprinting towards the school armed. That’s a far different sight than a teacher huddling among students that obviously aren’t afraid of that teacher, who just happens to have a handgun out; or a teacher that’s standing in the hallway firing at the BG.

  20. avatar ironicatbest says:

    Vigilante justice has no place for law enforcement. Just stay down at the speed trap and do your job officer, we will take care of the rest. Janitors and historians. ( I like that Paul Mac) don’t stop killins.

    1. avatar Garrison Hall says:

      History tells us why vigilante justice happens. It happens when there is no police protection. It also historically has happened when people lose faith in their police and in their government.

  21. avatar Moltar says:

    Maybe just maybe this is a sign of how much confidence we all place in the local LEOs. I respect and trust the deputies, troopers, and officers around here but when lead is flying in my kids’ schools that trust and respect goes out the window. I know my limitations and capabilities I don’t know theirs. Sure they may get there in 5 minutes flat, they may rush right in, and they may neutralize the threat, BUT there’s a chance they may replicate the Broward fiasco. Even if it’s a small chance it’s still too big a chance to just stand by and hope they manage to save my 3 kids.

    1. avatar CZJay says:

      Not so prepared as they would like to make you think:

      1. avatar Imidaho says:

        Thank you for the video!!! I wonder if i am able to get our school board to watch? Thanks…..!!!!! A little story…we live in the country, have our own shooting range, and we are firearms instructors. We shoot and train ourselves more than we train others. One of our neighbors, who’s house is a distance aways, is a great neighbor. Last night when he brought over some fresh homemade jam, we always talk about guns and training, etc. He commented that the people that know him or visit him, always ask about the shooting range near his house, and how safe that is. They ask about the people that have the range, and what character they are. The good doctor always defends us and expreses no worries. We always wonder about people that have no idea about firearms, or what could happen at a school such as above. How could we teach those about gun safety, and training? I read an article about a firearms instructor in Detroit, that had 600 women attend a such training event, just a couple of weeks ago. Idaho is a huge gun owner state, but we have many people that are unaware, or lack firearms knowledge, or the knowledge of firearms safety.

    2. avatar Tiger says:

      Great…… 30 to 40 hyper, armed, and clueless people thinking with guts over brains. What could go wrong????

      1. avatar Ing says:

        You’re talking about the police, right? We’ve already seen how that plays out.

        I’d rather trust the parents.

  22. avatar Gralnok says:

    Bull F***ing Shit.

    This is not a good article. It more sounds more like something the left would spew out. However, it does make a good point, the fact that many cops would rather shoot first and ask questions later. My reaction would be to invest in body armor, so I can return fire against a school shooter or against some dingbat with a badge, should I have to.

    Of course, all this assumes that I would risk my life for these indoctrinated youths who would be completely silent when the media cares more about the latest Kardashian boob slippage than a shooter who was stopped by a good guy with a gun. Until the media stops ignoring the multitude of DGUs, I feel little reason to stick my neck out for these people. 😡

  23. avatar tfunk says:

    Soooo…don’t wait until there’s a problem, but don’t do anything if there IS a problem. Got it.

  24. avatar Texican says:

    If If my kids or grandkids were in a school while a shooting was going on I would “self-deploy” like a sonuvagun! The cops can join me or shoot me in the back. Their choice.

    1. avatar Gralnok says:

      Pretty much my point. Body armor is your friend.

  25. avatar Tony966 says:

    A lot of stupid comments about how people are going to save their kids by being Heroes! The only heroes I knew when I served are dead because they were hot heads who thought they where John Wayne. You folks sound just like them. Good luck with that.

    1. avatar Gutshot says:

      Never mind that many POTG pay for more training, expend more ammo, and take better care of their weapons than most law enforcement officers do. In other words, many armed civilians are better equipped to do the job than the professionals. I don’t consider it being a “hothead” to try and stop the threat to my little ones. AND IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BEING A HERO.

    2. avatar Garrison Hall says:

      Please. Go. Away.

    3. avatar Ing says:

      I’m guessing you don’t have any children, TonyNumbers. If you do, I feel sorry for them, because every child deserves to have an adult in his life who will stand up and at least TRY to be a hero when the chips are down.

    4. avatar New Continental Army says:

      You sound like fake news.

  26. avatar Mark says:

    So you shouldn’t protect children’s life if it would cause a police officer stress?

    1. avatar Tiger says:

      You have no training. No credentials to be on a crime scene, You have no idea of the threat or number. The cops are correct here. This is not a Die Hard movie.

      1. avatar Ing says:

        To hell with credentials. The Broward Cowards had credentials. Their qualifications and protocol and communication didn’t save a single life. If you’ve been in contact with your kid and you know you can help, you just do it. End of story.

    2. avatar Ed Schrade says:

      We are supposed to show up unarmed and bring donuts.

      1. avatar Maggot4lyf says:

        You won the internet today!

  27. avatar Salty Bear says:

    Well I am pleasantly surprised at everyone’s disposition to tell the cops to FOAD. I like Dennis’s idea about giving the 911 operator your description. Then after that, I’m going to go save my children’s lives or die trying. Agents of the state, beware: we will bear arms in defense of our own, so stay out of our way!

  28. avatar Garrison Hall says:

    Despite the lionization from politicians and the media, incidents like this are symbolic of a deep distrust of cops and, perhaps even more significantly, a deep distrust of government authority. This apparently was a spontaneous response. When you have several well-armed individuals simultaneously showing up at a school threatened by an active shooter what this says to local police and to government in general deserves something more than a boilerplate stay-out-of-this-and-we’ll-take-care-of-it response from the police. After watching repeated instances where spree-killers easily penetrate “gun-free zones” where law enforcement is not present, stands aside, or is only able to act after the killing starts, can we really blame private citizens for acting? After all, they did show up first. Instead of reassuring us that they can protect us, police (and government) should own up to the truth and simply admit that there are times when they can’t.

  29. avatar billy-bob says:

    We already have volunteer fire departments, why not volunteer school defense forces? Perhaps composed of those willing to train, and motivated by more than a desire to make home at the end of a shift.

    1. A Police Officer training takes between 840 to 880 hours of training to be a Qualified Police Officer. Training for a Volunteer Fireman is ~110 hours, not including EMS/EMT training. What would you consider to be a suitable time limit for Volunteer Resource Officer training should be.

      1. avatar Ed Schrade says:

        So the guy that lived across the street from the church in Texas where that shooting took place should not have engaged and shot the attacked because of lack of training ?

        1. As I recall the Good Samaritan “Didn’t” engage at the Church, but Chased the guy down after the Shooter already left the Church.

        2. avatar Troubled Soul says:

          Crisco. You think wrong.
          Stephen Willliford shot the shooter twice before he fled the church.
          He engaged because he wasn’t a self concerned coward.
          The ideal that armed civilians will disrupt law enforcement is a lie.
          Take a look at the Dallas sniper shooting in 2016 where there were armed protesters carrying ARs.
          None were shot by police nor did it hinder the cops.
          If you can’t tell the the bad guy is the one shooting kids, then you have no business being a cop.
          I’ll trust a dozen Stephen Willlifords with my kids, before 4 coward county sheriffs.

      2. avatar Toni says:

        so how much of that “officer training” is PC BS, how much is law and how much is actual training that will enable them to perform duties under stress. sadly too much of it IHMO around the world is way to much of the former 2 categories and very little of the last. St. Johns ambulance here runs courses where volunteer patients are decked out in such a way that it looks like a mass casualty accident scene for certain groups including speedway volunteers. some of those volunteer patients will be screaming, some silent some just moaning and all look F’d up. i have watched the local and federal cops training at the local SSAA range and their efforts dont inspire me what so ever.

        now the one that responded at the church shooting, if he had had mags already loaded and had not simply been resting at the time he may well have responded faster. as it was he was still there way, way before law enforcement.

        1. What I’ve seen of Two Local Self Proclaimed Militia’s in training abilities (Idiots w/Guns), doesn’t inspire me with confidence either.

  30. avatar WCC says:

    The world is, and always has been, upside down. The Someone Else’s Problem Caucus is as old as the human race, as old as the first election of a chieftain to solve those problems which frighten the masses, but which were always their responsibility. This—first the Fear, and then the act of making that-which-frightens Someone Else’s Problem—seems to underpin all social evil.

    In a free, sane society, the citizenry absolutely should be the First Responder, if for no other reason than that they are there, by definition. Whoever is there is there. It IS your job to intercede. It is the job of the armed women to pull the children to safety while every able-bodied male moves toward the problem, as armed and ready. This is the only real ideal.

    The police are an administrative agency. Their only logically and morally feasible purpose is to back up the citizenry, clean up the aftermath, and administer law to the citizenry to the extent that it consents to be governed.

    The typical response is that this will lead to increase in violence, but this response is born of the same fear and ignorance, the absence of science. Where it is tried, to the extent it is ever tried, the opposite always results. The citizens who move in resolve the issue. Not always cleanly, but at least as cleanly and far more quickly than the police might have, especially if they are armed on par with the police. To say a citizen might shoot the wrong person is to disregard how often the police actually do. These situations don’t always have clean solutions. There isn’t always a path that doesn’t involve innocent death. To deny by that justification the right and Responsibility of each and every one of us (specifically the men) to act is to indulge in the same fallacy by which all totalitarianism is justified: a false utopia. Let Someone Else handle it, for surely the results will be better, and if they aren’t, they will be once we “get it right”—be it the training, the funding, the policies, whatever—and in the meantime pay no mind to the current system’s costs and imperfections: the innocents shot by police, the instances of police corruption, and most of all the increasing violence and ugliness, the moral decline, of a populace who believes that law and order is Someone Else’s problem.

    Pay no attention to all of that tragedy and bloodshed, because surely the opposite idea—that the citizens move in while the police hold back—would be worse. But again, whence that assumption? Is there any scientific basis for it? Is there any empirical indication in history except to the contrary?

    The police, arriving on any scene, have but one responsibility: to defend the rights and freedoms of the citizenry. If they can’t sort law abiding from criminal, they need only wait, and not shoot, until they can. In a situation like this, they need only follow the directions of the first person with a gun who hails them rather than shoots at them. (Imagine, a police officer obeying one of the citizens of whom he is a servant. Reflect on how strange that notion seems to us.)

    And the citizens will sort it out. And they will sort it out as cleanly as it could have been sorted. And in the process, a society will be fashioned in which such incidents are far less common.

    Men, it is your job to move in, at risk to your own life and limb, regardless of your family and other obligations. This is the price of the free society; just as those who survive are obligated to care for your widow and children afterward. And it is the job of the police to wait for you to do so, and follow you, rather than to put themselves in harm’s way for you.

    1. avatar Ed Schrade says:

      Very well written indeed. I agree.

    2. avatar Toni says:

      yes very well written and explained properly to the letter. sadly police never have and never will be anything more than the mop up crew and those who crave power use fear to their advantage to stop the public being able to do anything thus creating more fear.

    3. avatar Idaho says:

      Very well written and how true! Thank you!

  31. avatar Big Al says:

    What??? They even showed up with AR15 rifles!?!?!??????? Whose damn side are YOU on??? Do you expect the would be life savers to show up with single shot weapons??? Ask George Custer!!!

  32. avatar New Continental Army says:

    You are your own first responder.

  33. avatar Icabod says:

    How long does a school shooting last? I saw one quote that claimed police arrived an average of five minutes after the shooting ended. Given response time of police, citizens would likely take the same amount of time.
    It’s the people at the school, who run to the sound of guns, that stop the shooter.

  34. avatar Kyle in Upstate NY says:

    If my kid is in the school and I hear there’s a mass shooter possibly at large, I’m not standing around waiting for the police. If I can, I will call the police and alert them of the situation, tell them what I am doing, and go e a quick description of myself and my weapon.

  35. avatar Idaho says:

    We live in Pocatello, this happened south of us. The people that responded with firearms were trying to protect their children…..study the stats….!!!! The problem we have is our school districts are reactive not proactive. We have gone before the school boards and proposed everything from volunteers to free firearms training for teachers. The school board will not listen or accept any ideas!!!! They tell us they have the situation under control. They recently changed the boundaries within Pocatello, as to what address people live as to what school the kids attend. They had a town meeting…..did they listen or accept ideas from we the people in attendance? No! Our local school district has a pilot lock the front door of the school program. What about protecting our kids when the buses arrive at the school or what about at recess? We have asked the district what they are doing to protect our children. They tell us they have it under control…..what control???? We know a few of the Bannock County Deputies, personally. They encourage we the people to be armed and trained, as their response time could be 15 min in rural or more! We also know those deputies shoot and train frequently and are firearms instructors. Another story….our daughter shoots, hunts and trains with us. She had a conversation at lunch last month, as she was telling her friends about hunting and the upcomming hunting season. Nothing derogatory…..the vice principal told her that was unacceptable conversation. We called the school….the response was they will get back to us! We asked for a meeting….they were busy. We have attended classes with our kid, the one time I hid my visitors badge, purposely, only one teacher out of many asked me what i was doing at the school. Again we asked the school board as volunteers to be watchdogs, not armed, to be only watchdogs, several parents would volunteer. The response, again, we have it under control. Utah law will allow armed teachers. IDAHO LAW WILL ASO, but it is up to the school district. NOW…..can you blame the parents that showed up at that school being armed? Did they want what happened in Florida? Also did those parents show up at the Arimo school before LEO? When did the county deputies arrive? Again, can you blame those parents?????

    1. avatar Toni says:

      i completely agree with you and dont blame the parents at all. here in australia we dont have that option though we can send kids to whatever school we want. we dont have to be in a particular school “district” to send kids to a particular school. so i see that as a small part of the problem with school districts in the US being that if you live in a particular area you are forced to send your kids to a particular school unless you can afford to send them to a private school (which i see as the better option anyway). the option then becomes one of forcibly removing a school board by whatever means necessary if they refuse to listen to the parents concerns. log all complaints and attempts to talk to the board and the response. take it to court then if it still does nothing there is the 2A and that would also entail putting the court on notice that the people wont stand for being ignored. it is the same sort of corruption as was going on in Athens when the WWII vets took control forcibly just in a different area of gov

  36. avatar Michael Paradise says:

    Remember, when seconds count…the police are only minutes away. Notice how many parents got there first. Nothing to see, officer. We’ll take it from here.

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