Calibers for Beginners: What You Need to Know About 9mm

HB4116

I have fired somewhere around 50,000 rounds of 9x19mm in my life to date. That may seem like an extraordinarily high number to the casual shooter, but it’s not really that much when you consider how inexpensive reloads are and the amount of competition shooting some people do. I know a great guy in my area that fires that much in a year between 3-Gun, IDPA, and USPSA. Consider this a beginner’s guide to the most popular pistol caliber on earth.

Let’s start with the general background of 9mm. There’s a great deal of history to cover here, and I’ll have to omit most of it. The most important part is that the 9mm was invented over one hundred years ago and has been in service ever since. The round picked up great popularity in the mid to late 1980’s and it’s steadily increased in acceptance since.

There are several reasons that the 9mm has become as popular and widespread as it has in recent years.

  • The cartridge offers great power for a relativelysmall size. Guns can hold more ammo for less bulk than larger calibers.
  • Comparatively low recoil enables new shooters to learn easily and advanced shooters to perform better.
  • Carry guns can be made smaller and lighter without sacrificing power.
  • Inexpensive ammunition is available for practice.
  • Advanced technology and new guns are more often made in 9mm than other calibers today.

There are many more reasons than these as to why the 9mm has gained so much recently. In fact, it is a combination of many factors that make the 9mm such a desirable commodity these days. Among these is the fact that a person can have one caliber for both their full-size pistols and carry guns. Even AR-type carbines can be had in 9mm today and readily accept commonly available Glock magazines.

A major point above was the mention of advanced technology. The 9mm has benefitted from the new advances in bullet design and as a result as leveled the playing field against other calibers like .40 S&W and .45 ACP. The advancements in 9mm are so important that the former cartridge, .40 S&W, is dying off. The performance of the 9mm is better with less recoil and greater magazine capacity for the same size.

A common thing that you may hear in gun stores is that ‘9mm gets bigger, but a .45 never shrinks’. If you are a novice and feel pressure from the sales man at the gun counter to go with a ‘more powerful’ caliber, know that that man is probably uneducated and stuck in the past. The .45 ACP is a great and historically significant cartridge, but it offers less capacity for the same size as a 9mm but with more recoil. The ammunition cost on a .45 is generally much higher and it will take longer to master a gun made for it.

The ammunition made for 9mm today is so good that it rivals .45 ACP in performance across the board. Great ammo like Hornady’s Critical Duty and Critical Defense, Lehigh Defense Xtreme Penetrator, Black Hills Honey Badger, and SIG SAUER V-CROWN are all state-of-the-art in terms of self-defense ammo and each offers unique benefits.

The argument for a new shooter to go with a 9mm is very compelling. You can read all the gun magazines in the world and hear all the over-the-counter banter at a gun store, but once you fire them side-by-side, you will likely discover that 9mm is superior in most categories.

There are dozens of excellent 9mm pistols to choose from. Some of the best that I’ve tested include the following:

  • GLOCK 19X. This is a brand new pistol that was originally designed to compete with the SIG SAUER P320 in the military MHS program. The GLOCK lost the bid, but the 19X is a fantastic gun that offers a full size grip, 19+1 capacity standard, night sights, and three magazines.
  • GLOCK 43. This has become a very popular carry gun and is a great place to start when looking at choices. It is very thin, reliable, and accurate at defense distances.
  • SIG SAUER P320. This flagship model from SIG SAUER is the winner of the MHS competition and will be the service handgun of several branches of our armed services for the foreseeable future. SIG offers these guns in a myriad of configurations to suit any need.
  • SIG SAUER P938. The P938 is a larger version of the P238, which a .380 ACP. The gun features a metal frame and traditional controls like a manual safety and exposed hammer.
  • Smith & Wesson M&P9 SHIELD: These guns have been around for a number of years, but a new 2.0 model came out recently and features upgraded grip texture among other improvements.

There are many, many more available options in 9mm. It’s a great do-all cartridge and benefits from the most advanced materials and craftsmanship. You will find that there are many other calibers out there today, but none really do as much and do it as well as the 9mm. The 9mm can be your cartridge for weekend matches with your friends, protection in the woods, and your friend on the nightstand.

comments

  1. avatar raptor jesus says:

    “The ammunition made for 9mm today is so good that it rivals .45 ACP in performance across the board.”

    Unfortunately, empirical evidence doesn’t support this statement.

    https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/

    Advances in 9mm have also seen advances in .45 ACP.

    That said, the lower recoil, cheaper cost and higher capacity often offset the performance advantage of .45 ACP.

    1. avatar pwrserge says:

      True… but the gap has narrowed significantly. (Not to mention the fact that both baselines have shifted far enough for modern 9mm to be comparable to older .45ACP.)

      In any case, I still stick with my standard order of priority. 10mm > 9mm > .45ACP

      The first gives up a tiny bit of capacity for a LOT of power.
      The second gives up some power but wins in weight, capacity, and cost.
      The last sacrifices weight and capacity to get back a bit of the power.

      In my experience, 10mm is not particularly harder to shoot than .45ACP out of the right gun.

      1. avatar Joe R. says:

        Or just jump to where you’ll crawl to (using only your lips) eventually. . .

        The 40 S&W, because it’s ‘snappy’.

        1. avatar pwrserge says:

          Why go with .40S&W when 10mm is a thing?

      2. avatar brian says:

        It is often said 9 is the largest “minimally ADEQUATE” cartridge on the market: it has better magazine capacity, recoil and cost than anything larger yet is just large enough not to be ballistically IN-adequate, so it passes. “Good is the enemy of good-enough.”

        1. avatar FlamencoD says:

          Most 9mm +p defensive ammo has around 400 ft lbs of energy from a 4″ barrel (and even more from a 5″ barrel). That’s similar to or more than many .40 S&W defensive rounds, and exceeds many .45 ACP standard pressure rounds out of a 5″ barrel. If 400 ft lbs. is not enough, there’s always +p+ pushing 450-500 ft lbs of energy, that’s .45 ACP+p territory or stout .40 S&W, and .357 mag territory from a short 2″ barrel. Not really giving up power going with 9mm. It’s a no brainer – power, capacity, cost is a benefit over the others. My bedside defense pistol is a Springfield XD Mod 2 Tactical 9mm (5″ barrel). Good sight radius, extra velocity, and 16+1 rounds of 9mm+p pushing a 115 gr bullet about 1,300 fps.

        2. avatar uncommon_sense says:

          FlamencoD,

          9mm Luger is a fine self-defense handgun round for most situations.

          Having said that, it is not on the same level as .40 S&W. Here are a few comparisons of bullet weights and muzzle velocities from a four-inch barrel:

          115 grain bullets
          1150 fps — 9mm Luger
          n/a — .40 S&W

          135 grain bullets
          1010 fps — 9mm Luger
          1375 fps — .40 S&W

          147 grain bullets
          975 fps — 9mm Luger
          1275 fps — .40 S&W (velocity for 150 grain bullets)

          180 grain bullets
          n/a — 9mm Luger
          1100 fps — .40 S&W

          As you can see, the .40 S&W cartridge propels bullets at significantly higher velocities than 9mm Luger and even provides the option of significantly heavier bullets than 9mm Luger. Of course you pay for that with increased recoil.

          Like I said above, 9mm Luger is a fine self-defense caliber for most situations. If you are concerned about shooting through intermediate barriers, such as car doors and automobile glass at oblique angles (without significant bullet path deflection), then .40 S&W has a distinct advantage over 9mm Luger.

        3. avatar FlamencoD says:

          I was specifically referring to 9mm+p. Most 9mm+p defensive rounds have energy levels around 400 ft lbs. give or take out of a 4″ barrel, with the hotter +p loadings approaching 450 ft lbs. That’s similar to standard pressure .40 S&W. I know Corbon .40 S&W is above 500 ft lbs., they tend to load hotter, as they have 9mm+p+ with over 500 ft lbs of energy as well. A good expanding 9mm gets to about 0.65-0.70″, and a good .40 S&W is about 0.70-0.75″. Reviewing the Luckygunner labs work, 9mm over penetrates much less often than both .40 S&W and .45 ACP. A win for 9mm in my book. The cool thing is, we all are free to make our own choices! I choose 9mm+p.

    2. avatar Bloving says:

      Ah… caliber wars… we never get tired of them, do we?
      Funny thing about our love for the 9mm or the .40s&w or the .45 ACP, the whole conversation changes when someone moves the goalposts from Human Threat to Large Predator Threat. Then the 9mm falls off the table and we start discussing everything .357 magnum and larger.
      🤠

      1. avatar jwtaylor says:

        And they don’t have to be threats, at least not immediate ones. I’ve found myself carrying my 9mm EDC less and less often, and more and more I’m going back to my one of my 1911s in .45ACP. Why? Because I can load it hot, or even occasionally shoot .45 Super through it, and still kill pigs and deer with much better efficacy than my 9s. Have I killed pigs with a compact 9mm? Heck yeah, loads of them. But I have to rely on head shots if I want to recover the game. The heavy .45 caliber round plows through the tissues much better, and give me much more consistent kills when shooting through the shoulder.
        I just ordered some new springs for my G21SF so that it doesn’t rip apart when shooting the .45Super. I’ve put some rounds through it as is, with the only modification as a Lone Wolf barrel, but it does feel like a hell of a whack on the frame.
        I got into liking the 9mm. But in the end, it only does half of what I need it to do.

        1. avatar Rokurota says:

          I got tired of schlepping a full size .357 through the woods, so I’m trying a S&W 457 (.45). The hot Buffalo Bore loads approach .357 with a few more rounds are a thinner profile.

        2. avatar Craig in IA says:

          I’m one of the last guys to downsize from 45 acp to 9 mm for EDC. I was toting an old Detonics and occasionally a Colt Officer’s but this little Glock 43 is much easier to hang on myself and with modern ammo and work getting the trigger mastered I’m confident with it. I’d like to try out the new NOVX ammo, I’ll stop by and see them in Dallas.

          When I’m wandering around in my MN lake/woods joint, however, (or if I was out popping piggies somewhere) I always have a .45 with max loads. One summer a few years back we had a black bear scavenging in the open quite a bit, then I was carrying my LAR Grizzly in a jackass slide most of the summer when working on one of the lots. I’d love to try that one on some feral hogs. Not supposed to do it, but it really shreds carp in the backwaters from above during a spring flood. Quite the fertilizer spreader.

      2. avatar Art out West says:

        The author makes a few silly, and false statements. One example is this:

        “The performance of the 9mm is better (than .40S&W) with less recoil and greater magazine capacity for the same size.”

        If he had said performance was “almost as good”, I wouldn’t argue, but he said “better”.

        I also prefer 9 to .40. I own a couple of 9’s, and currently own no handguns in .40 or .45 (have owned both in the past).

        9mm ammo is cheaper
        Magazine capacity is greater
        Recoil is less
        Follow-up shots are quicker
        Easier to shoot accurately
        Terminal performance is ALMOST AS GOOD
        😁

        Still, I almost always carry a .38sp or .380 anyway. I like pocket carry.

      3. avatar Gov. William J Le Petomane says:

        And then in the depths of Mordor, Sauron forged the .357 magnum, the one ca liber to rule them all.

        1. avatar Eric in Oregon says:

          Agreed, I’ve often said that if I could only pick one gun for everything it’d be a Smith & Wesson 686.

        2. avatar Gov. William J Le Petomane says:

          GP 100 here. Maybe not the most convenient for CC but there’s almost nothing you can’t do with a 4″ .357.

        3. avatar Art out West says:

          Everything handgun for me would be a Security Six with a 3″ barrel. Mine has a 4″ barrel and is a bit large for concealed carry.

        4. avatar tdiinva says:

          If you drop a .357 below 4″ you will outperformed by 40 and 45 in equivalent sized gun. You get all of the recoil without the performance with a short barrelled revolver.

        5. avatar Gov. William J Le Petomane says:

          Beg to differ td, even the neutered factory stuff will net ~475-500ft/lbs of energy from a 3″ barrel and the full pressure stuff will get you 600+. In my experience a 3″ revolver carries like a 4″ pi stol. The gr ip angles back so technically it’s longer but the length of the barrel and cylinder vs the length of the slide is what matters for carry.

          Granted, the 9 and .40 make it up in capacity. And I’d agree when it gets down to 2″ or less, still significantly more energy than a compact (3″) 9 mm, probably about equivalent to .40, but .357 is just too punishing to go that short IMHO.

        6. avatar tdiinva says:

          No, I posted the data from Ballistics by the Inch several times. They say otherwise.

        7. avatar Gov. William J Le Petomane says:

          Ballistics by the inch only lists the weakest rou nds available in .357 magnum. And even those loads run in the 400-450ft/lbs from a 3″. Hornady and Rem ington (except the Golden Saber) will get you close to 500ft/lbs. Buffalo Bore and Double Tap, etc will get you over 600.

        8. avatar Eric in Oregon says:

          “You get all of the recoil without the performance with a short barrelled revolver”

          tdiinva, that’s not how physics works 🙂

    3. avatar Eric in Oregon says:

      “Advances in 9mm have also seen advances in .45 ACP”

      Most of the advances are to convert high velocity into the energy dump, and 45 literally just can’t keep up.

    4. avatar Gov. William J Le Petomane says:

      The bottom line is that 9 mm and .45acp are nearly identical in pow er*, they just go about the job differently. The 9 recoils less because it’s pushing a ligh ter bul let out the barrel and it takes up less space for greater capacity, so in practical terms with modern expanding amm unition there’s no real advantage to the .45. Back in the ball am mo days the .45 had a pretty big advantage though.

      *Original mili tary loads had the 9 mm 124gr. @1150fps from a 4″ barrel = 364ft/lbs vs the .45acp 230gr @ 850fps from a 5″ barrel = 369ft/lbs.

      1. avatar tdiinva says:

        Hornady Critical Duty 45 ACP +P comes in at 479ft/lbs of energy.

        Federal HST 45 ACP +P comes in at 469 ft/lbs of energy.

        Winchester PDX1 comes in at 431.

        If you want to compare modern 9mm to 45 ACP compare them to modern 45 ACP rounds.

        1. avatar Gov. William J Le Petomane says:

          .45 does have an advantage when it comes to +p, but I’ve seen some +p+ 9 mm stuff that claim 500ft/lbs. But if you’re wanting 500ft/lbs you should seriously think about either a 10 or a .357.

      2. avatar tdiinva says:

        This isn’t caliber wars thing. It is a refutation od the idea that modern 9mm out performs 45 ACP. It doezn’t. 9mm +p a d +p+ equals standard pressure 45 ACP defensive loads. If anything, the improvement 45 ACP defensive loads are proportionally greater than the improvement in 9mm.

  2. avatar Newshawk says:

    Don’t forget the newest SIG SAUER–the P365. It could be called the Contadina of carry pistols (How did they get 10 rounds in that itty bitty magazine?)

  3. avatar Parnell says:

    I have nothing against 9MM and at times carry a G26 or a P938. However, I really rather carry my G27. I happen to like 40S&W and don’t find snappy or weak. That’s what makes the world go round, different preferences.

    1. avatar larry macneal says:

      I agree. There is nothing wrong with the 40. I’ve picked up a few great pistols used because people are getting rid of them for 9’s or 45’s. Their loss is my gain.

      1. avatar ColoradoKid says:

        Don’t get me wrong, I like and own the 40S&W as well, but beginners will find it too punishing and hard to enjoy.

        1. avatar Joe R. says:

          Not if they start, and stay, there.

          I liken the argument to a story about Peter Criss from KISS. Peter wanted to build up his drum sound and stamina for long drum solos and concerts in larger and larger stadium settings. He started practicing with Quantum 5000’s, and built up to where, later, he just used them all the time.

          If the only handgun in the world was the 40 S&W, it would be everyone’s ~ blah gun. This way, it can be your favorite. Get on it.

        2. avatar WhaaaWhaaa!!! says:

          All shooters, including beginners, are different. What is snappy and punishing for some, isn’t so for others. And as has been said, it all depends on where you start. I grew up around firearms, but they were your more traditional offerings: 12 gauge shotguns, .22 LR rifles, and .38 Spl wheel guns. Once I got older and began purchasing my own firearms, I moved on to more modern guns and calibers, one of which was a Ruger .40 S&W. I never found it to be that challenging to run, because aside from occasionally shooting an old .38 at grandpa’s, I really had nothing to compare it to. Nine has become my primary caliber at this point, but .40 is still a great choice. I ended up switching to 9×19 mostly for the reasons listed in the article, specifically cost and capacity.

          As I said all shooters are different, and were I to introduce a new shooter, I would definitely go with 9×19; but just because someone is a new shooter doesn’t mean they can’t learn on what is viewed as a potentially difficult cartridge. I’m also glad that more and more people are switching to 9×19, because there are now some excellent deals out there for used .40 cals. Heck, you can get a used/trade-in Gen 4 G23 for around $300 now! And I doubt .40 will just go away, at least not for years to come. To me this makes them ideal beater guns, truck guns or whatever, ones you aren’t shooting every week but maintain some proficiency in, just to have them around.

    2. avatar pwrserge says:

      After shooting 10mm on and off for about a year, I have to go with my conclusion that the 40 S&W was a mistake. In a full-sized handgun, the 10mm is about as controllable as .45ACP and packs a hell of a wallop.

      1. avatar larry macneal says:

        I like the 10mm but I picked up a “used” Sig 226 in 40 and that thing is a pleasure to shoot. Whoever owned it before me did not give it a chance judging by the wear on the frame and barrel. I think I paid around $350 for it. Plus 40 caliber ammo isn’t that much more than 9mm. While I agree that it may be tough for a beginner, with the right pistol and mindset its not an issue.

        1. avatar Maatro says:

          I have .380 s that recoil more than .40 s. The recoil is way exaggerated.

          9 mm proponents move the goalposts. They use the practice cost of cheap FMJ with the performance of +P+. Rounds.

      2. avatar When Bullets Collide says:

        Yup. Mention 10mm during any caliber wars discussion. Brings everything to a screeching halt.

      3. avatar Dyspeptic Gunsmith says:

        Well, that’s because you’re not a federal agency, dealing with affirmative action hires who need to learn how to handle a pistol marginally well.

        If you’re a private sector shootist, there’s plenty to appreciate about the 10mm – but then again, you could get most of the way there in a .45 Super.

        Another alternative for those who want double-stack mags and .357 Mag ballistics is the 9×23 Winchester, which can smoke any of the other 9mm’s out there.

        All of these are available in 1911’s; the .45 Super has the advantage of being able to be used in most any .45 ACP chamber.

        1. avatar jwtaylor says:

          I was recently talking to Bill Wilson of Wilson Combat, planning my next 1911 with him. I wanted it in 10mm, and Bill was not that enthusiastic. He told me to look at what could be done with the standard 1911 with a ramped barrel and the .45 Super. After about 2 months of trying it out on other guns, I’m sold. My next 1911 will be a Classic in .45ACP with a ramped barrel, so that I can carry the 45ACP but hunt with it in .45 Super as well. 1300 to 1400 fps of muzzle energy from a Government framed 1911 is no joke.

        2. avatar Dyspeptic Gunsmith says:

          Agree, it’s no joke.

          People keep blathering how the 1911 is ‘obsolete,’ but as a gunsmith, I can tell you that if we’re looking around at a semi-auto pistol platform to use as a guinea pig for new cartridge development, the 1911 is much more flexible and adaptable by your local pistolsmith for some Frankenload than just about anything else out there. My second choice might be a CZ-75 type pistol design (as Cooper picked for the Bren Ten).

          Once you go to ramped barrels, new horizons open up, clouds part, trumpets come down out of the sky and cherubs start picking up your brass at the range for you. You can start flinging some ferocious pressure loads through a 1911 with a ramped barrel (aka “fully supported” barrel).

  4. avatar Gs650g says:

    Walter PPQ is better than the. Glocks and Sigs

  5. avatar former water walker says:

    Yeah I have 2 nines. Cheaper guns-cheap ammo. Preaching to the choir😎

  6. avatar Antoua says:

    Nothing beats versatility of 10mm, you can load it down to slightly hotter 9mm levels for cheap plinking or load it to “nuclear” levels up in 44 Magnum zone for some serious bear defense power, or load it anywhere in between the two. One pistol caliber to rule them all.

    1. avatar Art out West says:

      Hot loaded 10mm almost matches .357mag. It doesn’t come close to .44mag.

      I agree that 10mm is awesome. Sadly, I don’t own one. Someday!

      15+1 of .357 power equivalence in a Glock 20sf is quite impressive.

      1. avatar Gov. William J Le Petomane says:

        Every time I start to think I’d like a 10mm I hear some idiot making ridiculous claims about the strength of the cartr idge and I seriously think I should avoid the cali ber so not to be mistaken for one of it’s fan-boys. All you have to do is go to Buffalo Bore or Double Tap and look at how the two compare in full po wer loads. Also note, there’s never a +p designation on those hot .357 loads because they’re not over pressure. 10mm<.357.

    2. avatar Gov. William J Le Petomane says:

      ‘…or load it to “nuclear” levels up in 44 Ma gnum zone…’

      I’d like to be at the range when you touch that load off. Just want set up some bu llet proof glass to stand behind before you do it though.

      1. avatar Antoua says:

        When you want to go into “nuclear zone” for 10mm this is what I do to routinely achieve 1430 fps out of Glock 40 6″ long slide pushing 180gr XTP bullet, DPM recoil assembly system custom made by the factory for hot reloading. The powder is 800x at 10 grains, worked up slowly, could probably push this bullet even faster if I use Longshot powder but feeling quite content with current velocities. The barrel is Lone Wolf 6″ which fully supports the case and prevents “smiles” or worse. DPM absorbs the recoil like a champ, must be experienced to be believed. Of course, not nearly close to 44 Magnum hot loads but in the lower range of it. Better comparison would be to a Mag 41.

        1. avatar Gov. William J Le Petomane says:

          Plausible, but you’re not comparing SAAMI spec am mo or standard equipment. As a comparison, by my math your loads crank out 817ft/lbs of energy. The Double Taps I keep in my GP 100s are 158gr, which has a higher SD than a 180gr in .40, are advertised at 1520fps from the 6″ for a total of 810ft/lbs of energy (I figure ~600ft/lbs from my 3″). These are not +p loads, they are standard pressure .357 magnum loads. .41 mag (standard pressure) loads can be found in excess of 1000ft/lbs.

          One thing about 10mm and .357 is the majority of loads are substantially down loaded from max pressure.

      2. avatar Gutshot says:

        Nah, use new brass and you will be fine. Geez.

    3. avatar jwtaylor says:

      “nuclear” levels up in 44 Magnum zone”
      No sir. Unless you mean the hottest in-spec 10mm loads in comparison to the 44mag starting loads, there is no zone where the 10mm matches the 44magnum.
      In a carbine length barrel, many loads of the 44 magnum loads are within 5% of .30-30win hunting loads.

      1. avatar Gun Free School Zones are a crime against humanity says:

        Paul Harrell has a good video on .44 mag and .30-30 lever actions. Out to a hundred yards the mag keeps up with the .30-30. At 200 the mag is dropping way more than the .30-30.

        Both are good close range rounds in a handy, lever gun. I would probably pick the .30-30. Unless I already had a .44 mag revolver.

        1. avatar Gov. William J Le Petomane says:

          Some of the Buffalo Bore, etc. loads in .44 exceed the .30-30 at the muzzle, but comparing the .44 slug to the flat nosed .308 is like comparing .30-30 to 6.5 Creedmoor. With the right loads you can stretch a .30-30 out to 300 yards.

    4. avatar New Continental Army says:

      10mm is a great round. But it comes nowhere near the power of a .44mag. There’s no need to justify it by grossly overstating it’s performance. If we’re gonna play that game, then we could also dangerously hot load a .44 mag round with a .405 grain pill, and claim it’s nearly a .50 BMG.

  7. avatar Andrew Lias says:

    I will say that I’d test .45 vs 9mm. I like the .45 ACP recoil impulse better and it’s definitely not like you go from shooting a 9mm to a .45 and think you went from a .22LR to a magnum hand gun. The 9mm likely has as much if not more energy than a .45 (fast small bullet vs slow big bullet.)

    1. avatar Art out West says:

      I’ve never had any issue with .45ACP recoil. The two .45’s I’ve owned were both pretty soft shooting. They were also fairly large guns (Glock 21, and Colt 1917 revolver).

      For that matter, I didn’t have any problem with my Glock 22 in .40S&W either. I just didn’t need them. I think 9mm is ok for pistols, and .38/.357 good for revolvers.

  8. avatar AZRob says:

    The 9mm Luger didn’t become the most popular handgun caliber in the world because it doesn’t work.
    Enough said.

  9. avatar Bob says:

    Yep, modern bullet technology has brought 9mm up to the terminal balliatic performance of a .45 ACP…in it’s original hardball version at 850 fps. And I am not a .45 fan. And why give up better terminal ballistics of .40 S&W for slightly lower capacity and recoil? Again, not a .40 fan; in fact, from my personal observation, .40 has distinctly mediocre real world terminal ballistics, but somewhat better than 9mm. Keep it 10mm, .45 Super, or .400 CorBon in a lightweight 1911. Or skip the compromise of any handgun and reach for a carbine.

  10. avatar Big Al says:

    While listing bullet development please do not forget Speer Gold Dots AND Federal HST. The HST in 40 is NOT mediocre!

  11. avatar RandallOfLegend says:

    I’ll be interested to see how the caliber wars turn out when we’re all limited to 10 rounds in a magazine.

    1. avatar Dyspeptic Gunsmith says:

      Well then, the 10mm will become quite popular.

      One of the reasons why the .45 ACP in the 1911 package hung on this long is that the 1994 Assault Weapon “ban” gave a new lease on life to tried & true designs with less than 10 round capacities. If you’re going to be forced into packing only 10 rounds, might as well make them big, fat rounds…

  12. avatar Jay in Florida says:

    After 40 years of dragging a 1911 of one sort or another. I too have seen a light. At least a lighter load on my belt. I went with a FN9C. Maybe not as happy, but larger capacity. And less weight.

  13. avatar ironicatbest says:

    I used to be a 9 fan until it failed me. It’s like driving a thirty penny nail with a sixteen ounce hammer, takes more whacks, easier to drive it with a .45 sledgehammer

  14. avatar Rick says:

    9mm has the distinction of being one of the FIRST high pressure rounds. This is what makes it a compact package. It’s been the NATO standard for at least 70 years. The US went to it in 1984 to be NATO common. As a FIRST choice, yes if you go straight to a semi-automatic pistol. NRA has and I recommend a first handgun be a revolver. .38 Special has been the first choice but you can buy a .357 mag and shot .38 special in it. WHY? because revolvers are less prone to jams and failures. That said, the second purchase needs to be a .22LR pistol or revolver so you can practice. Feeling really ambitious, practice double action with the revolver then double action one handed. Finally, I carry a S&W Mod 60 when I feel the need and if I think that’s not sufficient, my Combat Commander in .45ACP. The best caliber is the one you can shoot well.

    1. avatar Mr. Marvin Ellis says:

      I agree with the best caliber is one that you shoot well! I don’t understand others trying to say that this or that is better. It’s all in what a person will practice with and become proficient in the firearms use and how it can be used. I personally use a 1911 in 45ACP for my general carry firearm.

  15. avatar Cloudbuster says:

    Pfft. All those other calibers are worthless against .9 mm.

  16. avatar Wedge259 says:

    I’m pretty triggered (pun intended), on this heretical article. I will continue to carry God’s Chosen Caliber, the .45 ACP, blessed to us by The Prophet, JMB, regardless of capacities and newfangled bullet technology. I think I need to go home and take a bath in 45 brass to take my,mind off this heresy!

    1. avatar Moltar says:

      The church of the mighty and all powerful .45ACP approves and may HIS prophet 1911 speed you along your journey to bliss.

  17. avatar tdiinva says:

    The capacity argument is valid for law enforcement or the military. It is questionable for the general public. The most likely scenario for a DGU where fire is exchanged is violent and short. It is highly unlikely that you will get past 7 rounds. If you aren’t carrying a duty sized pistol as your EDC you don’t disagree with me.

    I usually carry a duty sized pistol in 9, 10 or 45 but that has nothing to with what I think a realistic DGU would be like. I carry larger guns for sight radius (= accuracy) and ballistics.

    1. avatar Gov. William J Le Petomane says:

      For a while I carried a Beretta 92 with 17+1 but I switched from that to a 3″ GP 100 Wiley Clapp. I’ve never felt undergunned with either, but I always felt if I was carrying 9mm I wanted a lot of capacity to make up for the mediocre power and then when I switched to .357 I picked out a nice full pressure load from Double Tap for carry since if you’re going to limit yourself to 6 rounds (+ a 30 second reload from a speed strip) you’d best make sure each round counts. Even with 9 mm though, the likelihood you’ll get struck by lightning is far higher than needing more than 5 or 6 rounds for civilian self defense.

      1. avatar Michael in AK says:

        Speedloaders….a pain to carry but faster, much faster.

        1. avatar Gov. William J Le Petomane says:

          Agreed on both counts.

        2. avatar tdiinva says:

          Faster than hand loading a revolvet or faster than loading an automatic? If the latter I think not. That one has been tested already.

  18. avatar cisco kid says:

    Thirty Four years after the Idiots in the U.S. Military adopted the .45 acp they found out that when they tested the .45 acp in 1945 it actually bounced off of a helmet at 35 yards but the 9×19 penetrated the helmet at an astonishing 125 yards and might have penetrated it even further away than that but no one succeeded in hitting the helmet beyond 125 yards (see the book “The Inglis Diamond”).

    Contrary to lurid tales about the mythical killing power of the .45 acp in gun magazines by prostitute gun writers after the Philippine conquest by U.S. blood thirsty jack booted storm troopers in 1899 to 1912 the real truth as verified by Jan Libourel (the now retire gun writer) was simply that the stories about the .45 acp knocking people down or spinning them around like a top or making them disappear in a red puff of mist were just plain bullshit. It never happened nor did the Philippians become supermen immune to pain by chewing on a few natural leaves and berries either. Again more lurid tales of high adventure that were written to sell guns for Colt. Its probably one of the most successful pieces of gun propaganda ever written and still believed by right wing Morons to this very day. Jan found that the troops complained about all the pistol calibers including the .45 long Colt the .38 Colt , the much later used .45 acp and they even complained about the lack of killing power of the 30/40 Kraig. The only weapon they praised was the short barreled shot gun. They liked it because it killed the women much better after they had raped and tortured them.

    The real truth is that the 9×19 was the superior combat caliber especially in sub-gun. The average soldier could carry more ammo, shoot a cartridge that shot flatter at longer ranges thereby making hits more likely and had superior penetration and was far more controllable in full auto fire. In the FN High Power it carried almost double the amount of fire power, was more accurate compared to the shoddily made WWII G.I. .45 who’s accuracy was so bad that the soldiers used to joke they could always hit a wash tub with one at 3 feet (most people alive today do not know how big the old wash tubs really were). The real truth was the 1911 was so mistrusted that when many G.I.s went on guard duty at night in the South Pacific they opted for the fire power of the .30 carbine as with the short rifle they could hit quicker and more certainly than the inaccurate hard kicking 1911.

    As long ago as 1900 “real experienced” big game hunters found out that with the adoption of smokeless powder caliber size had little to do with killing power rather it was bullet placement and penetration. Many hunters first coming to Africa at first used the big bore cannons of .45 cal to 60 cal before realizing that the smaller military calibers were cheaper to shoot and the surplus arms were dirt cheap to buy as compared to the huge cost even back in those halcyon days of the British big bore double guns and the super expensive ammo for them. And they found the smaller calibers killed every bit as well.

    The majority of Africa’s big game was never killed off by Hunters even commercial hunters rather it was deliberately slaughtered and left to rot by poorly paid government hunters using old surplus military rifles with surplus military ammo killing off every animal in sight to insure the new farms being made would not be threatened by dangerous animals or animals hell bent on eating up the crops. John Allen Hunter in perhaps one of the best books on Africa ever written called simply “Hunter” once sadly admitted the government sent him into a huge valley to slaughter off every rhino in sight while a large crew of natives came along behind him pulling down every thorn bush in the valley to make way for the new settlers swarming into the valley to make new farms and plant crops.

    Hunters like D.W.M Bell, Percival, Agnes Herbert, Dennis Lyell, just to name a few reverted to small caliber rifles and slew animals as big as elephants with them. They knew how to shoot and where to shoot to bring them down. The 6.5 and 7mm were very popular calibers.

    Bill Judd who often used the .577 nitro express was actually killed using one while he and his son literally pumped a big bull elephant with shell after shell before it was finally killed but not before it killed old Bill Judd proving that when you place your shots poorly there is no such thing as knock down power with any caliber rather you either hit the vitals or you get your self killed.

    My own interviews with WWII Vets back in the 50’s and 60’s after plying them with liberal doses of high octane alcohol to loosen up their tongs revealed that many used and preferred the 9×19 over the .45 acp and none I repeat none ever complained the 9×19 did not kill. Most preferred the high capacity FN High Power but the Polish Radom and p38 rated high as well.

    I once had the opportunity to fire at some rather new empty 55 gallon drums I repeat they were empty at about 10 feet. The loads used in the .45 acp were 225 grain Lyman hard cast lead bullets loaded up to maxim velocity but the Browning High Power in 9mm had some low velocity lead bullet reloads which were the 121 grain Lyman lead conical bullet. The .45 acp at 10 feet “not yards” only went through one side of the empty 55 gallon drum while the 9 mm which was using low power hand loads went right through both sides of the drum proving what a worthless cartridge the .45 acp really is in a real combat situation. In other words someone hiding behind one of those drums would have been as safe from a .45 acp as if he had been inside an Abrams tank but not so with the 9mm as I would have got him.

    A colleague of mine once shot a deer from a low tree stand with a high point pistol in .45 acp and he shot it four times before finally getting out of the tree and walking up to the still standing deer and then had to shoot it in the head. Simply proving if you shoot a .45 acp at an animal the farther away it is the less effective the .45 acp is because it runs out of steam so fast as compared to the faster stepping 9mm.

    I personally shot some very large white tail deer with the 9×19 and killed them with one shot using an expanding 125 grain hollow point hand loaded Remington bullet. Now that is much different than shooting jugs full of water or wet newspaper because its shooting a live animal often pumped up with Adrenalin. Which simply proves Jeff Coopers bullshitting rants on how anemic the 9mm is was just a no nothing gun writer riding the wave of the artificially created .45 acp popularity.

    Combat Handguns several years ago reported that 3 new modern handguns using factory ammo, I repeat factory ammo in 40 S&W using the 180 grain original hot factory loadings blew up when the ammo suffered bullet set back which detonated the round. One gun was a new High Power, the next a new Ruger and the last a Glock 17. It was found that there was so little air space in the .40 S&W Cartridge with the 180 grain bullet that when the powder was compressed by bullet set back the pressure was too much for guns originally designed for the 9×19. The ammo companies quietly then stared loaded down the 180 grain loads and then everyone switched to the less effective 165 grain loads which were traveling at higher velocity. It was also found service life in the 40 S&W guns was much shorter due to the heavier recoil of the 40 S&W handguns which along with the increased cost of ammo made a lot of Police Departments switch back to the 9×19 not to mention the 9×19 had a higher capacity and much less recoil meaning it was easier to shoot accurately and recovery time between shots was faster. It was also found out that some good shots could get off two 9mm rounds as fast as they could get off only 1 round out of a 40 S&W or .45 acp.

    Yes the Military did itself a favor by finally dumping the .45 acp caliber when it finally went some years ago with the world standard 9×19. How well this new plasticky Sig pistol will work out remains to be seen.

    I might add that lets not forget the Tokarev and .30 Mauser cartridges as well. Few back woods out house denizens know how deadly these two calibers are either. In Massillon Ohio a few years ago a Cop bullied the wrong guy on the wrong day and he shot the cop in the buttocks with a .30 Tokarev and the high velocity bullet ricocheted upwards inside the body tumbling end over end and chopping up the internals like hamburger. The cop was dead before he hit the ground. Later in a Bonnie and Clyde style ambush the man who killed the cop was given no quarter and he and his car just like in the Bonnie and Clyde execution was turned into Swiss cheese by fully automatic fire from multitudes of law men. The caliber used was the .223.

    One sad story. When returning G.I.’s came home many brought with them a variety of pistol souvenirs even though you were only allowed one with paperwork to bring back. When it was announced that anyone caught trying to steel a 1911 would go to jail they lined the decks at the harbor throwing many brand new 1911 pistols into the sea. The real shame was that my Dad said he had two 1911’s along with six European pistols. He threw his 1911’s away but not overboard but down the crappers so as to be out of sight with them. When it came time to debark the ship the MP’s were screaming to move, move, go , go , get the fuck off the ship. In other words they never searched anyone and my dad got away with bringing 6 guns back home but lost the 1911’s and so did all the other G.I.’s that threw theirs away as well. And by the way the pistol my Dad carried was an FN High power in a G.I. Shoulder Holster. I still have the holster but alas he sold the pistol when I was still too young to buy it from him.

    I had an uncle that helped build the Burma Road during WWII. He and a colleague were driving a jeep and towing an ammo wagon behind the jeep and were driving over a long bridge spanning a deep, deep valley. They almost got to the end of the bridge when a bunch of hot headed Chinese Soldiers pulled up to cross the bridge and the idiots wanted my Uncle to try and back up the jeep clear back across the bridge which of course he was not even going to attempt to do. At this point the Chinese soldiers all started cocking their rifles as if to shoot my Uncle who was just as pissed off as they were so my Uncle pulled out his .45 cocked it and aimed it at them. At that point the driver of the Chinese Truck quickly backed up to let my uncles jeep get off the end of the bridge. My Uncle could not believe a whole truck load of Chinese soldiers was scared of just 2 men one armed with only a pistol. Then when my uncle looked back at his buddy he saw his buddy holding up a grenade. Now he knew why the Chinese had decided discretion was the better part of valor.

    In another adventure my uncle was driving down a narrow Jungle Road just big enough for one jeep to get through after he had strung telephone wire and it was getting late in the day and it was getting dark. As he drove along with only his 1911 45acp all alone he suddenly saw what he thought was a huge pony sitting on its haunches by the side of the jungle path. My uncle thought, this is a strange way for a pony to act. As he got closer much to his horror it was not a pony but a huge Bengal Tiger just sitting there. My uncle blew the horn and the cat still would not move. My uncle then pulled out his .45 and laid down across the seat and punched the accelerator to the floor. The cat never moved an inch and watched my uncle zip by driving with one hand on the wheel and one hand on his 1911. My Uncle at the time was thinking that if he was killed the information given to his parents would not describe him being killed in a heroic battle but being dinner for a Bengal Tiger. When I asked my Uncle why he did not shoot he said “are you kidding this tiger was big enough to have taken a whole magazine of pistol bullets and not felt a thing.

    1. avatar New Continental Army says:

      Everything you just typed was made up.

      1. avatar Gov. William J Le Petomane says:

        You actually read all that?!?

        1. avatar New Continental Army says:

          No. But I’ve read enough of cRisco’s bullshit to know it’s all fake news. So now, everytime he types anything, I feel the need to share how much of a fake, made up, fake news faker he is.

        2. avatar jwtaylor says:

          No one has to read anything from the writer who complained about the “incredible recoil of the .380ACP” to know it’s all bullshit.

        3. avatar cisco kid says:

          quote————————Gov. William J Le Petomane————————You actually read all that?!?———————————–quote

          Not everyone suffers from attention deficit disorder (the mark of the hill jack). And yes educated people could read through that in less than a minute and not miss anything in it or misunderstand it. Have your wife read it to you so you can understand it and there are parts of it you might even enjoy. The rest of it you might disagree with but the reason for your ignorance is precisely because you do not enjoy reading or are capable of reading if its more than one sentence. I imagine if you had a library at home it might consist of just one unread book.

        4. avatar LazrBeam says:

          Wayyyyyy too much to read for sure. Succinct is best.

        5. avatar Gov. William J Le Petomane says:

          ‘Not everyone suffers from attention deficit disorder…’

          This why Twitter never really took off.

        6. avatar Gun Free School Zones are a crime against humanity says:

          Our proud communist one world .gov guy, comrade cisco, is claiming his family did something he would never do. Fight for the US.

          His sub standard education and intellect ensures that he can’t see the contradictions in his story. But if anything he wrote of his family’s service is true, i doubt it myself, then he must have been unwelcome at all family gatherings.

          A lonely, ignorant commie boy grew to a bitter, angry commie man. Who will die a bitter, angry and lonely old commie man.

          Pathetic and clueless, as always. He’s the perfect ‘hilljack’.

        7. avatar Gun Free School Zones are a crime against humanity says:

          comrade cisco. You exhude Dunning Kruger. You mistake indoctrination for education. Sorry, comrade dude, but just cause you say you’re smart don’t mean jack shit.

        8. avatar Scoutino says:

          No. After couple of sentenced I realized it’s his tired old story about shooting steel helmets at 100 miles with a 9mm and Boro’s laughing off .45s.
          Skipped the rest of his novel.

        9. avatar cisco kid says:

          To Lazer Brain.

          Quote———————Wayyyyyy too much to read for sure. Succinct is best.———–Quote

          Agreed, if you have never mastered the English Language. Even one sentence would be a challenge to fathom.

    2. avatar cisco kid says:

      Gun Free School Zones are a crime against humanity

      to “Gun freak Zone out”.

      I guess my ancestors were light years more intelligent than the Neanderthal people who raised you. My relatives, my School Teachers in High School and College, and many older friends all advised me to stay the hell out of the Vietnam War and how right they were and how lucky I was to take their advice.

      Yes not all WWII Veterans were right wing Morons as many told me they would never do it again and after serving in WWII quickly realized the war only made the rich more wealthy and powerful while the working mans kids were sacrificed as cannon fodder. The talking heads you used to see on Pearl Harbor day did not represent many of the people who actually fought in war rather it was the cooks and latrine scrubbers who were always bragging how much they loved the war and what big fearless heroes they were fighting cockroaches in the kitchen. Many later in time were exposed for the frauds they were including many who also bragged about serving in Korea and Vietnam when some were actually not even in the military and those that were never saw combat. Find any real combat veterans that believe in war and I will show you a nut case that needs to be locked up in a straight jacket. I can name a few like the great hero mass murderer Lt. Calley or the guy that got what was coming to him Chris Kyle who liked to shoot civilians during Katrina (according to his own statements) and of course women and children in Iraq. Rolling Stone magazine even ran an article about him and two other snipers that got in a race to see who could kill the most civilians. In Nam one sniper bragged when he shot a teenage pregnant girl in the stomach and said “great I got two people with one shot”. In Nam one nut case called “Killer” (by his own men) even murdered two naked teenagers taking a bath in a river one boy and one girl and he had a smile on his face when he told about it.

      As you can see not all people who served in WWII were right wing Morons as they knew the real truth about who starts wars and profits from them and early on they new that the Vietnam war was a lie from the very beginning and could not be won without resorting to Nuclear war.

      WWII in Asia was a fight between the greed monger Japanese and American Imperialists who were both fighting for the rights to rape the Far East of it economic riches and rape every penny of profit out of Asia. The U.S. had been raping Asia since 1856 and was not about to let Japan in on any of the profits. The main reason for dropping the Atomic Bombs was actually to prolong the war by a full 3 months until the bombs were ready to drop. They were used not to win the war as it was already won but were used to terrorize the Russians so that we could hog all of Japan to ourselves. The American Companies after the war raced to export jobs over to Japan as labor was cheaper there and made the American greed monger Businessmen millions in profits at the expense of the American worker. War equals greed equals exploitation of the workers equals profits. It was also one of the main ingredients of the Vietnam war as we thought we too could rape Vietnam as the French had been doing for over 86 years.

      As Michael Moore posted on Twitter 2 days ago the end of the Nam war on April 30th should be made into a National day of Remembrance and apology for the 3 million people we slaughtered in Vietnam as well as an apology to the young Americans that got suckered into serving there and died there and it was all for nothing just as the anti war protesters predicted from the very beginning of the war. History proved them right and Jane Fonda was the biggest Heroine of the entire war as she saved many lives on both sides of the battle line as she exposed the atrocities of the war even though later they proved to be way more horrific than even she was aware of at the time but by ending the war sooner she saved many, many lives. We need a 50 foot high statue of her and we need many more like her in the future to keep the nut case dogs of war chained up so that they do not bring havoc and more mass murder to the world.

      The infamous Hanoi Jane picture of Jane sitting behind an anti air craft gun actually came about almost by accident. It was ever intended that she go anywhere near it but she was tired and when the guides asked her if she would like to sit on the seat she simply did it to be polite. In a way we anti-war Protesters were ecstatic when we saw the picture because it simply represented the fact that we believed and supported the Vietnamese people and their right to their own self determination which we had promised to them at the end of WWII when Ho Chi Minh helped us fight the Japanese and saved the lives of many shot down American pilots. Only we stabbed him in the back at the end of WWII and gave his country back to his French en-slavers who had murdered thousands of his country men.

      When were the war mongers ever right. Answer: Never because in the end peace is not permanent by beating your opponent it only becomes permanent when you sit down to negotiate a peace which you should have done before you ever resorted to war.

      And by the way Gun Freak Zone Out I have always been welcome among all my relatives because they were never brain washed Morons like your Relatives. We all knew “how to think” we never accepted being told “what to think” as we refused to be manipulated by the greed mongers that start wars.

      1. avatar Gun Free School Zones are a crime against humanity says:

        Comrade cisco. How are you going to achieve your fairy tale one world .gov? I’ll tell you how. With oceans of blood and violence. Millions, if not billions killed. Just like your heroic freedom fighting communist soldiers in viet nam. You know, the ones that invaded neighboring countries like Laos and Cambodia and murdered their way into south viet nam.

        Keep lying to yourself about how smart you are. You prove otherwise with every comment. And remember, you’re another useful idiot like the viet cong. And you know what their own puppet masters in Hanoi did to them. You being so intelligent and all.

        But you would probably see a re-education camp or a bullet in the back of the head as positive re-enforcement from your commie leaders.

        1. avatar cisco kid says:

          To Gun Moron of the Freak Out Zone.

          Your knowledge of Vietnamese History is comparable to your knowledge about most other subjects, in other words absolute zero.

          Ok Hill Jack Jethro another history lesson.

          When the Vietnamese Invaded Cambodia after the Vietnam war they had a noble reason for doing so. They took out Paul Pot who was murdering tens of thousands of Cambodians. And later when China attacked them they took no shit and kicked out the Chinese as well. Of course an ignoramus like yourself would of course no nothing at all about any of Vietnam’s History.

          Another more recent history lesson King Retard is that as we speak the U.S. is selling weapons to the Vietnamese so they will be able to block Chinese expansion into S.E. Asia militarily something the numb skulls in the U.S. Government should have done after WWII and only now 75 some years later are finally courting Vietnam as a U.S. Ally.

          So instead of constantly making an ignorant fool of yourself quoting what Vietnam has done just maybe you had better go back and pass History 101.

          Just give up Jethro your out of your league.

          I am sure if any Vietnamese are reading your ignorant rants they are saying “With Morons like him no wonder we were able beat the shit out of the U.S. Military.”

          Just as a side bar towards the end of the war the U.S. made a pathetic attempt to kick the Vietnamese out of their supply base at the lower part of Cambodia on the Ho Chi Minh trail. The U.S. invaded and was stopped cold even though they had overwhelming air power. Despite the pounding the Vietnamese Army took it was still unleashing over a thousand artillery pieces on the U.S. Military who turned and ran. One could hardly blame them as they were also out numbered 8 to 1. It simply proved that air power is not always the savior of a battle being fought and when you do not even have enough men to even remotely have any chance of winning it then it simply showed what Morons were running both the U.S. Military and the U.S. Government who were only interested in saving face not just at the end of the war but from the very beginning of a war everyone knew could never be won and morally should never have been won which it was not.

        2. avatar Gun Free School Zones are a crime against humanity says:

          Typical lies comrade cisco. The north viets invaded cambodia and laos before the war ended for us. ho chi minh trail ring a bell?

          And if your commie overlords hadn’t destabilized the region so badly pol pot would never have been able to rise.

          If you didn’t lie you would be silent.

        3. avatar cisco kid says:

          to Gun Freak out Zone

          Quote————————Typical lies comrade cisco. The north viets invaded cambodia and laos before the war ended for us. ho chi minh trail ring a bell?

          And if your commie overlords hadn’t destabilized the region so badly pol pot would never have been able to rise.

          If you didn’t lie you would be silent.——————quote

          Tearing you up is not even a challenge this is to easy. First off go back and read my post Moron I specifically alluded to the Ho Chi Minh trail used during the war and the ammo dumps that were hidden there. What part of this do you not understand Genius Freak.

          Destabilized the region????? Where did you dream this one up. Paul Pot was in complete control of the country and no, Vietnam had nothing to do with his rise to power only his demise when he started to threaten their country.

          Try again Jethro you are making a fool of yourself. Better to keep your mouth shut when you do not know what the hell you are talking about.

        4. avatar Gun Free School Zones are a crime against humanity says:

          So you admit that the first incursion into a neutral country was carried out by your ‘communist freedom fighters’ ? And then they invaded south viet nam.

          You’re the perfect stooge for your commifascist masters. Uneducated but completely indoctrinated.

          This will not end well for you.

        5. avatar cisco kid says:

          To Gun Freak in a School Zone.

          Quote——————So you admit that the first incursion into a neutral country was carried out by your ‘communist freedom fighters’ ? And then they invaded south viet nam.

          This will not end well for you.This will not end well for you.——————quote————

          Its ended very well for me because at the time there were plenty of Morons like you that got themselves blown away while I enjoyed the good life and took care of their abandoned wives and girl friends. Its called “The Darwin Effect”.

          And by the way Moron if you had read my post the first time in its entirety I mentioned the fact that they were in Cambodia so I do not have to admit anything it was there from the very start. Reading comprehension Jethro, Reading comprehension.

          And by the way they withdrew after the war as the bases were no longer needed after their country was reunited after throwing out the jack booted U.S. Storm Troopers who could hardly wait to finally leave. The panicked and humiliating withdrawal was tough to watch even for the anti-war people, not so much for the storm troopers but for the South Vietnamese that had been suckered into cooperating with the U.S. for gold and power.

        6. avatar Gun Free School Zones are a crime against humanity says:

          Are you actually this stupid? comrade cisco? You can’t believe you’re actually making a valid point here? You have twice admitted that your commifascist buddies invaded two countries without good cause. Cambodia and Laos were neutral and your commifascists buddies went medieval on them.

          As for you getting laid. Nigga, pleaz. I got so much from those hippy chicks and anti war protesters I may actually be your daddy. They didn’t like soy boys back then.

          commifascist pawn. That’s all you are.

        7. avatar cisco kid says:

          To Gun Moron of the Freak out Zone.

          quote——————-Are you actually this stupid? comrade cisco? You can’t believe you’re actually making a valid point here? You have twice admitted that your commifascist buddies invaded two countries without good cause. Cambodia and Laos were neutral and your commifascists buddies went medieval on them.

          As for you getting laid. Nigga, pleaz. I got so much from those hippy chicks and anti war protesters I may actually be your daddy. They didn’t like soy boys back then.

          commifascist pawn. That’s all you are———————–quote

          What a laugh your failure to see the forest for the trees is really a joke. Your just to ignorant to understand any of the points that were made.

          And yes they did invade for a very good cause both times numb nuts. They needed to invade Cambodia to put in their supply bases that they used to supply their troops as well as their Komrades in the Viet Cong. And they invaded again in Cambodia after the war of American Imperialism when Paul Pot was threatening the whole region. Now numb nuts what part of this do you not understand and how many times must I repeat it till it penetrates that thick cranium of yours.

          Your pathetic rebuttals are making you look even dumber than your usual foolish replies. Desperation I guess.

          And I am probably old enough to be your grandfather junior boy as you fool no one. You were not even alive during the war. Your clueless responses prove it.

          And your right wing paranoia over an economic system that no longer exists only shouts to the world your lack of education on the subject. Your failure to realize that Communism was an economic system and that a dictatorship can exist in a Capitalistic system as well or have you never heard of South America and some of its past leaders and governments. Is this getting to complicated for you Jethro. I think that is rather obvious.

        8. avatar Gun Free School Zones are a crime against humanity says:

          comrade cisco. I don’t believe you’re still trying to impress people with your non education. You do realize, or maybe you’re too stupid, that nobody here believes a word you say.

          All it takes is reading one of your screeds to know that you’ve never been in the real world. You have no experience of life and it shows, big time.

          Its been fun spinning you up and getting you to prove you haven’t a clue. Re read every comment you’ve made on this thread. Slow down and think. All you’ve proven is that the murderous, genocidal commifascists that you love so much were involved in multiple aggressive moves into other nations to extend their power in the region and they killed whoever got in their way.

          You’re a complete failure as a 5th columnist, comrade.

        9. avatar cisco kid says:

          To Gun Moron of the Freak out Zone.

          Any one dumb enough to ride a motorcycle in today’s traffic is really advertising their level of education. Have fun your life will probably be quite short in today’s traffic. I will miss making a fool out of you on this forum.

        10. avatar Gun Free School Zones are a crime against humanity says:

          Wow. Completely clueless but convinced he’s smart. Dunning Kruger at its finest. I find it hard to believe you’re that lacking in iq, but here’s the evidence.

        11. avatar cisco kid says:

          To Gun freak outzone

          Quote——————Wow. Completely clueless but convinced he’s smart. Dunning Kruger at its finest. I find it hard to believe you’re that lacking in iq, but here’s the evidence.——————————————-quote

          The grave yards are full of Motorcycle Morons who said “nahhh this will never happen to me” Famous last words. And I have attended the funerals of many over the years. That is the difference between the experiences of the “Old Foxes” and the Morons who think they know it all and end up crippled or dead.

        12. avatar Gun Free School Zones are a crime against humanity says:

          Dumb ass kid. I mean comrade cisco. Like your commie khmer rouge buddies you ain’t very bright. Nothing new there. First, you can’t tell the difference between a scooter and a motorcycle. And you gleefully hope for my death based on an avatar picture that means nothing. I don’t ride.

          My death will be from old age and natural causes. Yours will come with you crying, pissing and shitting yourself in front of a mass grave when your commifascist buddies, who have literally murdered more people worldwide than any group, decide it’s time for another purge.

          Just remember, in your last, begging moments, who told you the truth. Let my words be the last thing that passes thru your brain before the bullet.

        13. avatar cisco kid says:

          to gun zone freak out

          quote———————–Just remember, in your last, begging moments, who told you the truth. Let my words be the last thing that passes thru your brain before the bullet.—————-quote

          Let me remind you shit head that threats are illegal and could land you in prison.

        14. avatar Gun Free School Zones are a crime against humanity says:

          Threats? When did telling you the truth about your commifascists masters become threats? You worship a blood soaked, corrupt and morally bankrupt system and you can’t see how it will be your own end.

          You are a special kind of snowflake, aren’t you.

    3. avatar Aaron says:

      TL/DR

      hey cisco, the comment section isn’t your personal psychiatric counseling session.

      1. avatar cisco kid says:

        Then Aaron why are you posting anything. Touche!!!

        1. avatar Amooseanon says:

          As often as I think you’re wrong about everything, that was actually a little funny.

  19. avatar Cathead says:

    Why do people always compare the hottest 9mm loads to
    45acp standard loads? A 9mm can not even come close to a 45acp, i have 9mms also but always carry 45acp or .40 sometimes 357 sig and 357 magnum also carry 327 alot, i use 185 grain 45acp non +p it is 1140 fps and 524 lbs also 230 grain 1000fps over 500lbs of energy unless you use 9mm+p+ you get nowhere near those numbers,my .40s&w carry ammo is non plus p and 155 grain 1240 fps over 500lbs,energy,at least compare apples to apples here.

    1. avatar cisco kid says:

      quote————————A 9mm can not even come close to a 45acp, ————–quote

      Unless you have hunted and shot live animals you are not qualified to make that statement. Quoting bullistic tables, gun writers , gun articles etc. etc. is no substitute for killing something with those calibers.

      At point blank range which is where most gun battles take place use you what you like best. In the 1980’s one of the few worth while gun editorials ever written was done by a bunch of non professional amateurs but they had something most gun writers never really have and that was they actually went out and shot live hogs with the .38 special, .357 Mag, 9×19 and .45 acp at point blank range in a barn yard in Mexico to get around U.S. animal cruelty laws and they shot a lot of them. They found little difference between the pistol calibers except that the pigs jumped higher and squealed louder when hit with the 9×19 v/s the .45 acp.

      Yes we can talk about war which is often far different than what a cop or civilian might need but then again it does point out the scenarios as to what caliber might just be better for a combat soldier. And I would take the 9×19 in war hands down for my above real life experiences and above mentioned reasons, just scroll up and read it it just might burst your bubble on all the propaganda you ever read about the .45 acp.

      1. avatar Cathead says:

        I have killed many hogs,black bear and deer with a 45acp 44mag 357 and 10mm,never had a problem with 45acp with proper ammo and a 5 inch barrel,also have used 45lc on bear,deer and hogs,i would never consider a 9mm on animals other then in a emergency, try to stay on point,nothing wrong with 9mm i own many of them and a couple. 380s and makarovs but wouldnt hunt with them, have used tokerov many times on small game.

        1. avatar Gun Free School Zones are a crime against humanity says:

          comrade cisco has never shot a gun. He’s never hunted. He’s a born liar.

        2. avatar cisco kid says:

          To the Cat. You admitted you never hunted with a 9mm so you are not qualified to make the statement they are inferior to your favorite .45 acp. Try it some time, i have and therefore I am more than qualified to tell you it takes no back seat to the .45 acp and is superior to it because it shoots flatter and retains its velocity and penetration longer. Way longer and the 1945 tests proved that when the .45 acp bounced off a helmet at 35 yards and the 9mm penetrated it at an astonishing 125 yards. If that is not total superiority I would not know what was.

          As I said before any caliber at close up ranges can do a lot of damage including the lowly .22 rim fire. The President Reagan assassination showed graphically large grown men, 3 of them, being literally blown off their feet by just a .22 lr. hand gun. But the real test of the all round handgun caliber come when its asked to hit and penetrate at longer ranges and there the .45 acp is an absolute failure both in terms of velocity, trajectory and penetration. In short it sucks big time.

    2. avatar LaserBeam says:

      .327 Fed Mag IS a badass round. Got 3 revolvers in that chambering as well as a Henry lever gun. The more I shoot that round the more enamored with it I become.

      1. avatar cisco kid says:

        I would have to agree Laser that yes the .327 is a very good caliber the problem is that too many people have been listening to the boys beating the big bore drums for too long a time and alas the .327 is probably headed for extinction so buy up all the brass you can now before it becomes scarce to non existent and super expensive. I wish I had done the same for the .222 Remington Magnum back in the day when brass was cheap and plentiful. Sometimes good calibers become extinct due to just plain ignorance.

  20. avatar Theron Patron says:

    I am a firm believer that all bullets are lethal. However, some of more lethal than others due to speed, mass or design. It really all boils down to the skill set of the person behind the pistol. I personally know a man that killed one guy and paralyzed another for life with a 25 Beretta.

  21. avatar Timothy V. Noecker says:

    My Weapon Of Choice Due To Budget Restraints Is a Springfield Armory XD(M) 3.8in Bi-Tone Chambered in 9mm. I Love The Fact That It Holds 19+1 Rounds With the Extended Magazine. The Recoil Is Managable, Cost Of Ammo Is Relatively Affordable, and My Self-Defense Ammo Of Choice Doesn’t Leave Me Feeling Under-Powered…

  22. avatar BierceAmbrose says:

    Yes, but can you carry hundreds of rounds in a high capacity clipazine, like the dreaded .9mm?

    I think not.

  23. avatar Scoutino says:

    I usually don’t jump into another episode of caliber wars, but there is something fishy here.
    9mm is barely good enough with modern bullets. It is NOT better than .40 with the same kind of bullets though.
    The FBI and some police departments went back to 9mm to save money and some limp wristed agent’s and cop’s egos, not because some ballistic breakthrough that only works for 9mm.
    The .40 might not be as popular as it was in ’90s, but it is far from dying.

    Is 9 mm the best caliber for beginners? I always thought thats what .22 lr is for. Me, I learned shooting hanguns with CZ Vz. 52 in 7.62×25 Tokarev at ripe age of 8. These days I find myself shooting my .44 mag. Super Redhawk most.
    My 9 years old son shoots .40, 9 and .22 pistol, likes the .22 best.

    To each his own. Use and carry what works for you.

  24. avatar borg says:

    If forced to choose between 45ACP FMJ or 9MM FMJ I would recommend 45ACP due to being less likely to pass through and hit innocents.

  25. avatar Aaron says:

    9mm is lighter, less expensive, and more compact.

    but the hole a .45 makes in a paper target is a lot easier for middle aged men to see without using a spotting scope. for me, a casual shooter, that makes shooting a 1911 in .45 more fun than shooting a 9mm.

  26. avatar ozzallos says:

    I was fine until I read “The ammunition made for 9mm today is so good that it rivals .45 ACP in performance across the board.”

    Because no other bullet will benefit from the same technological advances, right? There are many cases you can make for 9mm. This one is just lazy ignorance. Less shame on the author and more on TTAG for posting this ameture crap

  27. avatar Joshua Kempton says:

    Are you CNN? Cuz your bias is showing.

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