Gun Review Follow-Up: Another Look at the SIG P365

SIG P365

SIG SAUER has a huge hit on its hands with the P365. Who in their right mind wouldn’t want 10+1 rounds in the footprint of guns that typically hold 6+1? Our man John Boch sure loves his, giving it a well-deserved five star review.

But, alas, the P365 isn’t proving to be all rainbows and unicorn backstraps, as a good number of early purchasers have reported running into serious problems . . .

Over on their Instagram page (and YouTube), the Military Arms Channel has documented many of the recurring complaints. Trigger springs breaking, failures to go into battery, and broken strikers seem to be plaguing P365 owners. Or at least those who purchased early, ahead of SIG’s first round of in-line changes.

What’s that? In-line changes? But it’s a brand-freakin’-new product! Yeah, you’re tellin’ me.

This wouldn’t be the first time — far from it! — a firearms manufacturer has been accused of effectively beta testing on its customers. Heck, it isn’t the first time that charge has been levied at SIG SAUER.

Reports of early guns failing — physically breaking — within a couple of boxes of ammo and showing “cosmetic” problems like barrel peening after a single range session don’t inspire confidence in the testing done at the factory. I suppose, at least, it’s nice that SIG kept an eye on market feedback and suspended sales of the gun while working on bug fixes.

My P365 is what I suppose we’re calling a second generation model. Yes, it’s awfully early for a Gen2 (the P365 was only announced four months ago), but it is what it is.

Considering the documented issues mentioned above, I took mine straight out of the box and put 1,000 rounds through it.

Seven brands of hollow points, ball ammo in every bullet weight (well, from 92 to 165 grains) and powder load out there, zinc projectiles, and two brands of frangible projectiles later and I encountered precisely zero issues of any kind. This P365 fed, fired, and consistently ejected every single round.

I found the X-Ray sights to be absolutely fantastic for my eyes and shooting style. I was shockingly fast and accurate with this little pistol. Simply put, it makes me look like a better shooter than I am.

Pinging steel at silly distances and shooting within 15 yards as fast as I can pull the trigger showed better accuracy than I can get out of most handguns. The P365, despite its diminutive size, is an easy gun to shoot well.

A great trigger helps. After some first stage-like take-up, it stops against the sear and then breaks at five to five-and-a-quarter pounds with minimal creep and a crisp release. The reset is short — audible and tactile — and if you ride that reset you won’t repeat any of the take-up on subsequent shots.

It’s easier for me to shoot with the pinky extension baseplate, of course. The P365 ships with two, 10-round mags: one with a flat baseplate and one with a small pinky extension. Optional 12-round mags are sold separately.

Naturally, on my second range trip I forgot my second magazine. So somewhere between 850 and 900 of the rounds fired through this gun were fired using the flat baseplate mag. My pinky got a little bit beat-up from riding the front edge of the baseplate or wrapping under it, but it didn’t affect my shooting.

Turns out, I’m glad I put so many rounds through a single magazine. Apparently, as noted by the Military Arms Channel, one of the signs of a wonky and likely-to-fail P365 trigger return spring is the fact that it sticks into the magazine well and scratches up the magazine.

After 850-900 rounds through my flush mag, it looks like this:

I think it’s getting a light touch from the tip of that spring, but it most definitely is not dragging on the magazine body. There’s no line of finish missing, let alone a gouge like in MAC’s photo. Just a shiny spot of worn finish where a hole in the magazine well exposes the tip of the return spring.

No barrel peening. In fact, the barrel looks brand new. I’m shocked by the 99.9% lack of finish wear after a thousand rounds.

It’s dirty, but it’s good. No signs of wear anywhere. Everything checks out, everything looks good. Flawless, really.

No odd wear on the firing pin. I don’t know if SIG has changed anything here or if my firing pin is as likely to break as some owners have seen. Or maybe you have to be unlucky from the get-go for that to occur.

From reports, it does seem that broken firing pins have happened fairly quickly in most cases. That’s possibly a consistency issue with the MIM process and you either get a solid unit or there’s an occlusion or something that results in a critical weakness.

And the tip of the P365 firing pin does need to be strong. Perhaps stronger than usual.

As so many have reported with the P365, mine exhibits fairly severe primer swipe. This is caused by the barrel camming downwards to unlock before the firing pin has fully retracted.

That could be fixed with a stronger striker return spring or a longer delay in the action before it unlocks. Of course, that second one is hard to do in a micro-sized pistol, and a stronger return spring could result in light primer strikes.

Now, a lot of semi-auto pistols with Browning-style tilt-barrel locking mechanisms exhibit some degree of primer swipe. Especially striker-fired guns, as a firing pin gun is all “return” spring and no “strike” spring (the spring doing that job powers the hammer instead of the firing pin directly).

That said, the primer swipe owners are seeing from their P365s, including me, is extreme. There was no brand of ammo that didn’t show it, and it happened on every round fired. It’s more swipe than what I’d consider acceptable.

The concern is two-fold . . .

First, it puts undue wear on the firing pin, which really shouldn’t be experiencing any lateral stress in the first place. I worry for its longevity.

Second, while the primer is soft the brass case is not. If a particularly soft primer is encountered, perhaps on a hot round that cycles the slide extra fast, and the tip of the firing pin drags through the primer and hits the case inside the primer pocket…not good. While steel should beat brass, there’s a lot more meat to the case head than the tip of the MIM’d firing pin.

In the end, as much as I love the P365 — and I really do…it’s a five star gun in every other possible way — I have reservations about carrying it. Yeah, it crushed through 1,000 rounds fired as fast as my trusty UpLULA and I could load and shoot it, getting hot enough that the front third of the gun was painful to touch.

But that nasty primer swipe combined with many reports of broken firing pins is like a black cloud. Like looming bad news. Murphy’s law and all.

Will it fire the next shot for me? Yes; 99.999% guaranteed it’s going to fire the next shot. Everything is [still] physically fine with this P365. But will that be the shot that snaps the tip off the striker? Will I have 10+1 if I need it? Who knows?

Dear SIG,

Please fix your shit.

Love,
Jeremy

Also:

Dear aftermarket,

Please send me one machined tool steel striker for the P365.

Thanks,
Jeremy

comments

  1. avatar Joatmon says:

    Not all that glitters is gold.
    I’ll stick to my pistols that have a track record of reliability.
    Yes, it’s mechanical and could break at any time but I feel better personally with a pistol, rifle or shotgun that has been out for a while.

    1. avatar Jeremy S. says:

      Yes, the old adage of not buying in the first model year isn’t bad advice, whether it’s cars or technology or guns, etc etc… But it’s certainly less fun.

      1. avatar Old Guy in Montana says:

        Mine is also a Gen2 [sic] P365. With just shy of 600 rounds also reporting zero failures. The primer swipe is pronounced on all brands of ammo. I second your call for a tool steel striker…plus, I would like a bit more pronounced mag release from the aftermarket gurus. Agree wholeheartedly with your assessment of the XRay sights. It handles the Federal 124 HST beautifully…placing rounds exactly where I was intending them to be. Picked up three of the 12 round mags and they make an excellent EDC micro that much better!

        My favorite holsters are leather (yeah, I’m that old!)…with a preference for Aker 268A Paddle holsters (they should be getting VERY tired of my calls every two weeks asking when they will be available).

        Enjoy your articles and comments…keep ’em coming.

        1. avatar Joatmon says:

          https://shop.lspi.com/Steel-Striker-For-SIG-P365-Pistols-LS-7365.htm

          Looks to be back ordered but maybe an option.

        2. avatar Jeremy S. says:

          Holy f*** $100 seems a bit extreme…

        3. avatar Rusty Chains says:

          Seems to me that the drag marks on the primer are a timing issue. I wonder if a barrel that slightly delays the tilt as the slide starts to move back and/or a little more power in the recoil spring. A slight delay should allow the striker nose to rebound back into the slide enough to allow the round to normally extract and eject.

        4. The price is steep and the waiting list is long, but I highly recommend you get the steel striker to replace the MIM striker the gun ships with. Given the forces applied to the tip, which is far more than I’ve seen on any other pistol, it seems like the wise thing to do.

          I have one on order. I will put a lot of rounds through it to see if it doesn’t break. If the steel striker isn’t properly tempered it too can have failures. Sooo… it seems like a good upgrade it’s still untested.

      2. avatar Geoff PR says:

        Jeremy – Tool steel is harder, but the downside is it’s *brittle*.

        Considering the failures reported (and the lateral forces applied with the primer swipe), would not a ‘tougher’ metal be in order for the firing pin?

        Maybe Titanium? Inconel?

        Perhaps Dyspeptic chime in with some thoughts…

        1. avatar Eric in Oregon says:

          Titanium is a great material, but it’s not *stronger* than steel. It’s something like 2/3 as strong at half the weight. I’ve almost certainly gotten those numbers wrong, making this pedantic comment unintentionally ironic.

        2. avatar Jeremy S. says:

          There are many types of “tool steel,” each with vastly different properties that can also be tweaked drastically via different heat treat methods. Maybe that isn’t even needed here and just some chromoly stuff or a particular grade of stainless, etc etc, is ideal. I dunno. I’m not a rocket surgeon. The point is, I’m interested in something stronger than the factory one! I’m actually a fan of MIM, generally speaking, but I don’t think it’s appropriate for a striker, which incorporates both firing pin and sear.

      3. avatar Danny L Griffin says:

        the old adage of not buying in the first model year isn’t bad advice, whether it’s cars … But it’s certainly less fun.

        You mean like Tesla? What could possibly go wrong?

        1. avatar tmm says:

          When life gives you a Tesla, you roast marshmallows

    2. avatar Mike Dexter's A GOD says:

      If the design has flaws, then it has flaws. Sig should have caught it in QC, they didn’t, now they should recall and fix it.

      My problem with Military Arms Channel, isn’t that Tim point out his problems with the gun, but the completely childish way he’s handled it since. He’s gone on to completely and totally defame Sig, and trying to character-assassinate their brand as nothing but complete garbage across the board. Anyone with a double digit IQ knows that’s completely not true. Sig has had some misses in the products they put out, but also some HUGE wins (not to mention they started the whole “arm brace” craze).

      Now, looks like Tim is peddling t-shirts defaming Sig as a “S-eriously I-ncompetent G-unmaker.” What in the actual fck Tim? Looks as if the self-appointed lead man of hardline, no-compromise, gun rights advocacy has no problem trying to tarnish the reputation of a SOLID firearms company, one which is squarely in our corner as far as gun rights, and inflame controversy SO HE CAN PROFIT PERSONALLY FROM IT.

      This is the shit leftists do.

      1. It’s always what the leftists do. Talk about childish…

        If you don’t like the content, I have a super simple solution, stop watching it. Obviously you have anger management issues and suffer from severe fanboyism. Grow up, move on and live a little.

        If you’re also a Remington fanboy, you probably shouldn’t watch the channel in the morning. I have a RP45 video. Oh, and I also have a new Remington shirt too.

        Perhaps one day you’ll develop a sense of humor. Maybe. Doubtful, but I am the eternal optimist.

        1. avatar Scott says:

          Hey Tim, care to elaborate on the CZ P10c strikers turning inside the slide or the trigger springs breaking on the P-07s, both malfunctions rendering the guns useless? Oh no, that would mean exposing on your buddies at CZ wouldn’t it? Can’t do that or you won’t get a free trip across the pond for their next big release.
          You’re a biased drama queen shill.

        2. avatar MilitaryArms says:

          Good Lord some of you just can’t help yourselves.

          The minute one of my CZ’s break, there will be a video. My “buddies” over at CZ don’t do anything for me. Nothing. The CZ I carry I bought off GunBroker. If it fails me, like the VP9 before it, there will be a video.

          You see, I have something you lack; integrity. The reason I’m talking about the P365 breaking is because mine broke. There are all sorts of guns that break every day. Until it happens to me I don’t comment on it. I read all the reports of the P365 having sights falling out and strikers breaking before I got mine but you can’t find a single post from me about it anywhere on the internet until mine broke.

          Again, it goes back to that thing you can’t wrap your head around known as integrity.

        3. avatar Scott says:

          Since I’m not one of your sheep, I can’t help to myself when it comes to calling out tools in the gun community. Integrity? That’s funny coming from a guy who abuses a VP9 and throws it at a steel target then bitches when it breaks. Nice move…for a 12 year old bratty kid. Funny considering you’re selling shirts bashing several individual gun companies yet “care” about the gun community. Funny, yet hypocritical to attend the NRAAM wearing an anti-NRA shirt as a life member and you did it strictly for attention. That was something a liberal college student would do and it didn’t change a damn thing. You knew it wouldn’t but it’s all about you. By the way, are you keeping that shirt money or have you done what a man of integrity would do and donate it to the 2A cause? You, Hickok, IV8888 and other big YouTube channels are sellouts and only care about good old #1. It’s pathetic.

      2. Oh, and Sig didn’t develop the brace, SB Tactical did and sold it to them. It’s a Veteran owned company so they deserve the credit for that.

        I don’t care what side of the argument you’re on, if you put out defective products that lives depend on you need to be called on it. Sig has a long history of making substandard products and beta testing their new wares on the public.

        When a fanboy like you gets their hands on what they believe is a well made properly QC’ed gun you may be carrying a ticking timebomb like I was. My P365 failed me miserably and I’m FAR from the only one.

        Your fanboyism can get you killed.

        1. avatar mike says:

          I totally agree…it is 2018, the technology era…you put out a so called ‘game changer’ and it is defective right out of the gate…$700 asking price. Fails in just a few mags?!?

      3. One last point.

        I don’t “inflame controversy”. Since you like to use the leftist schitck, I’ll do the same. You see, Sig created the problematic gun. I didn’t make the gun, Sig did. Had Sig spent a little extra time in engineering and testing the P365 would have been a major hit. I thought it was at first.

        Like a leftist, you don’t blame the actual problem maker (Sig), you blame the messenger (me).

        1. avatar Mike Dexter's A GOD says:

          So lets look at this…

          A leftist decides something didn’t go their way. They take to internet to publicly complain and enlist the Twitter/Instagram mob. They defame the company and demand a boycott. And don’t you dare disagree or think “Eh, maybe there’s a better way to handle this?” or you’re dismissed as a racist.

          …and in this case…

          A YouTuber decides something didn’t go their way. They take to internet to publicly complain and enlist the Twitter/Instagram mob. They defame the company and demand a boycott. And don’t you dare disagree or think “Eh, maybe there’s a better way to handle this?” or you’re dismissed as a fanboy.

          Yup…handled with all the class of the perpetually outraged, boycott screaming, apology demanding, poster waiving, pussyhat wearing, college campus leftist. Where’s your sense of humor? Come on, laugh at yourself. And here’s the thing: Hocking snarky t-shirts sure makes it look like you have a vested interest in creating/inflaming controversy. But hey, gotta pay the bills.

          And as a disclaimer: I own exactly 1 Sig product, and it ain’t a P365 (and their RECENT track record shows something is obviously wrong with QC over there). I also don’t own a single Remington product and their R51 & RP9 fails were hilarious.

        2. avatar Old Guy in Montana says:

          Thanks for the laugh. Much better response to MAC than I could have written. His holier-than-thou attitude was pizzaing me off earlier when I caught up on my weekend e-mails (my response was going to be something like: “so, you have a P365 and had problems and I have a P365 and have not had problems…looks like a one-to-one standoff…and your opinion counts…why?”). Every firearm is a mechanical device that can fail on the next round…even his precious Glock. That said, my P365 has been flawless for 600 rounds…for that matter, so has my LCR, the 642 and the H&K USP Compact I’ve carried for years.

        3. avatar MilitaryArms says:

          I called for a boycott?

          I laugh at myself all the time. I even make fun of myself in video (see the RP45 video).

          As for Old Fart Montana, you’re a mindless rah-rah boy and a troll. You wouldn’t know what a shill was even if one were to bite you on your fat ass.

        4. avatar Brian says:

          Mil Arms, and your sycophants,
          As a former LEO and Licensed Private Detective/high-quality security provider who quite successfully lived through the transition from revolvers to semiautos, and has come to see the strengths and weaknesses of both, I can only say that judging by what you write about revolvers, it is clear you know bullcrap. If they don’t work for you (shavings in the action are a new one on me!), you don’t know how to run and maintain them. Amazing that first-rank peace officers like Harlon Carter, Skeeter Skelton, and the great Bill Jordan (with whom I had friends in common) and so many others seemed to run their six guns just fine! Or were they just stupid dopes compared to you and others here who are the true “fan-boys” who think the world was holding it’s breath waiting for autoloaders to grow up? Your self-aggrandizement gets hard to stomach, when you are compared to the true experts with arms.

          If you know so little about revolvers, what do you really know about semi-autos? Not much, I’d wager. You shoot more words than bullets, a typical Internet problems.

          Find some facts, some humility, some sense of your real level of (in)expertese, and you just might find you eventually have something to say really worth listening to. Try being objective and not such a prissy smart ass. But until then, please, please have the sense to shut up before you get some killed with your half-assed, half-baked opinions. It isn’t a game. Some people are going to take your opinions and act on them. Want to live with that? Want to be cited as an “authority” in court for some poor soul’s actions? How’s your liability insurance looking these days?

      4. avatar Larry M. says:

        Has anyone seen the primer swipe on the Smith & Wesson Shield 9mm? I have both pistols and my S&W shield does the same thing. I wish there was a way to attach pictures so I could post both firearms primer swipe. The Sig P365 is a tad bit more in primer swipe compared to the S&W shield.

    3. avatar Henry says:

      One thing I noticed in your pic. of the firing pin is the spring end is right where the cups meet. You should rotate spring till it’s centered in between the cup ends, it pushes the spring cups or 1 cup up farther than the other if it’s right where they meet.

      Why is the firing pin spring so out of shape ? Looks like it’s to long for that firing pin ? You would think it would rub and make your trigger pull feel gritty ?

  2. avatar PeterK says:

    GREAT coverage. You guys are still killing it in the honesty department.

    That primer swipe is scary. Seems like bad engineering. Sucks to have such an otherwise great product so obviously tainted. Here’s hoping they really do get that sorted out.

    1. The primer swipe is a major issue as evidenced by all the reports of the tips breaking and bending.

      With proper engineering, like was done with the Glock striker, you can strengthen the striker to handle the lateral forces. Look at a Glock striker sometime if you’re not already familiar with it. It’s a tank and is well designed to deal with such forces.

      However, I go with your initial assessment that it’s poor engineering. Maybe by v5 they’ll redesign it. That, or in typical Sig fashion they’ll drop it and come up with a new design that’s similar and call it something else, like the Virtus, leaving the previous generation owners hanging in the wind. (P250, Sig Xi, Sig 556, MCX, etc.)

      1. avatar Larrry M.; says:

        I have a Smith & Wesson shield 9mm that does the same thing with primer swipe as my Sig P365. I don’t have problems of any striker breakage in either pistol. This Sig P365 is a tad bit more in primer swipe but runs flawlessly. Sig has always fixed any issues with their firearms and I believe they will continue to do so. Why do you compare the Smith & Wesson Compact to the Sig P365 for primer swipe when the smith has a longer slide and barrel? It would have been a more fair debate if you would have compared the Shield to the P365 that has closer lengths of slides and barrels that show similar primer swipe. i also had this issue in an old Smith and Wesson model 659 9mm. Primer swipe has been there for years now and it appears no one has noticed it before in the past until now for some reason.

  3. avatar Ralph says:

    I don’t mind beta testing a pistol if I’m getting paid to do it. Otherwise, I wouldn’t consider buying any gun until after the obligatory recall.

    American automobile manufacturers neglected quality this way in the 70s, and we know what happened to them. If American gun manufacturers don’t get their shit together soon, they’ll end up in the same pickle. The difference is that no government is going to bail them out.

    1. avatar 16V says:

      The game is almost up – again. 30+% of auto paper is sub-prime. Commodity vehicles only move with thousands of incentives, leasing expensive cars to people for almost nothing because fantasy lease-end valuations.

      There aren’t the customers for 12MM new units per year for much longer. This time the Chinese will get GM, Ford may or may not survive as a boutique truck and Mustang builder, Fiatsler, who knows? Many millions of vehicles coming off-lease in the next coupla years, and the next crash is

      Interesting times indeed…

      1. avatar Geoff PR says:

        On the upside, it’ll make homes more affordable again.

        It was weird how quickly prices rebounded since ’08, though.

        Could it be Ford saw the writing on the wall when they bailed on most of their passenger cars?

  4. avatar former water walker says:

    Oh well…can’t afford one anyway. I need to save my $ for a move to Indiana. Illinois pols(plenty of RINO help) just passed a slew of anti-2A bills.

    1. Get over here! We need more pro-gun Illinois ex-pats. I’m one. I lived there for a few years before realizing what a mistake I made. Come look at the Valparaiso/Chesterton area. That’s where I’m located. I even know a kick ass gun shop that will hook you up with great deals. 😀

  5. avatar ironicatbest says:

    …… Question, I changed the stock recoil spring in a 1911 with an 18 pound one. Now it’s pushing some brands of hollow points back into the case, what’s the fix besides a 16 lb spring. Ramps already polished. This firearm did not do this until I went to the heavy spring.

    1. avatar CommonSense says:

      Heavier crimp?

    2. avatar Mark H says:

      Adjust the extractor. It’s too tight.

      1. avatar ironicatbest says:

        Thanx, I have monkeyed with the extractor and probably over did it. My philosophy, if a littles good more has got to be better.

      2. avatar ironicatbest says:

        Thanx again, that fixed it.

  6. avatar Fastharry says:

    Thought long and hard about buying one to complement my lcp2 and g43….decided on a g26….maybe in a year from now…until then, g26 in a vedder light tuck,,besides, I like a heavier gun for carry…and I shot the 365 and 26 side by side…and the 26 felt better ….

    1. avatar former water walker says:

      LC9s has a 9round mag available that works(so does the gun)…for a helluva lot less.

  7. avatar Gary says:

    My Shield works fine. I’m still not over the “Mosquito” fiasco. I am a low income fella & Sig can still kiss my grits….I’m still not over their engineers telling me to liberally spray my AMMO with lubricant before shooting. Yes dump your ammo in the old oil bucket at the range before ya stuff the mags… Idiots on their team. Whatever happens you can bet the customer will take a hit up the ass before Sig does.

  8. avatar Rusty Chains says:

    I put in an order for one two days before Mac posted his video on YouTube. Second guessing that right now. I hate how much manufacturers push not ready for prime time products out the door for customers to do an extended beta test with, especially with a product your life might depend on. At least Sig is stepping up to fix the issues.

    1. avatar Rusty Chains says:

      My edit timed out….

      Looks like I am going to have to put a good bit more than my usual five hundred rounds through the gun before it replaces my Shield for EDC. Rats, guess I will need to schedule an extra trip to the range. and get one of those Uplula things. Sure hope they have fixed the issues by the time mine shows up.

  9. avatar TexTed says:

    Wait for the obligatory “no it doesn’t, we tested that, our Sig meets all relevant standards” defense.

    Then when they’re absolutely forced to fix it, they’ll fix it, and refuse to recall all the defective pistols out there. They’ll fix those that are in warranty, but only if you somehow find out on your own about a “voluntary recall” program.

    I love the concept of the P365, but I am coming more and more to the opinion that I hate Sig.

  10. avatar Ranger says:

    Kahrs produce primer swipes also, but not as bad as that Sig.

  11. avatar Shire-man says:

    Still waiting at least a year. Maybe two now. I’ve been tempted with gun in hand and cash in pocket twice but I won’t give in.

  12. avatar tdiinva says:

    Shows you the value of corporate good will. Remington beta tested the R51 on the public and it died because nobody trusts Remington. Sig does the same thing but since Sig has better press the public is more forgiving.

    1. avatar Rusty Chains says:

      Remington knew about the problem with the 700 trigger for decades and hid it. How they gotta anyone to minimize the R51 issues in print is beyond me, but they did. The 870 is good, but Mossberg, and lots of companies make 1911s; so why would I ever buy anything they make?

      1. avatar tdiinva says:

        And do you feel the same way about Sig?

        1. avatar Jeremy S. says:

          How the companies have responded to negative feedback is worlds apart. Remington is different now from then and different people are at the helm of the marketing and PR departments. They’re awesome and receptive these days. However, back then, their public responses to TTAG and Nick reporting honest findings about the R51 were…extreme.

        2. avatar tdiinva says:

          As I said, Corporate good will is an important asset. You will tolerate this kind of stuff from a company you trust but if it goes in long enough your good will erodes. This is how you become Remington.

  13. avatar Rip Off says:

    Sig charges premium prices which implies a reasonable expectation on behalf of the customer that he will get a premium gun. Any gun that is prone to breakage during normal use is not a premium gun.

    Worse, a defective gun can get the customer killed. He might not know that his firing pin is broken until it is too late. Sig Sauer, this is a management issue more than it is a product issue: this should have never made it to the factory floor.

  14. avatar MIO says:

    Thanks for the honesty

  15. avatar Cirno Baka says:

    >all these comments
    >nothing about Ron Cohen, former CEO of Kimber moving
    >nobody notices the failure rate rising since he moved
    Plebs.

  16. avatar Gregolas says:

    Well done, TTAG and Jeremy S. ! Thank you !

  17. avatar emfourty gasmask says:

    The Sig beta test meme just can’t be broken now. It’s almost an inevitability at this point. I haven’t seen a Sig apologist in a long, long while now that I think about it.

    1. avatar TheUnspoken says:

      Obviously releasing a flawed product or “buggy” item is bad, but I also don’t like when they make a lot of quick changes that leave an early adopters with a gen 1 edition that nobody wants. I tend to buy guns to keep, not to trade or re-buy every few months. I didn’t like the whole MPX generations thing or even the mcx and now Virtus versions. I dunno, it seems they are just slinging guns out there, to see what catches on, p250? Nah, now 320! If I am going to pay hundreds or thousands for a hot new gun, I don’t want it to become obsolete by a new improved better version.

      Guess I will stick with more classic guns, stay out of the rat race.

      1. avatar emfourty gasmask says:

        I think now, generally speaking, we can all agree that it’s likely just best case to avoid Sig to begin with.

        1. avatar Mark says:

          I would agree for the most part. I think the P320 line is solid (in spite of the drop safety issue), especially given since our boys are carrying them and any issues will be identified and fixed pronto. I haven’t had any issues with my P320 full size or subcompact pistols and I have several of each. I would never buy another Sig rifle (way better choices out there) even though I did buy a MCX carbine several years ago. Sig REALLY needs to stop releasing so many fucking models. It is insane how many items they sell. For almost anything they sell you are better off going with a specialty provider (optics, rifles, etc.). For an AR15 go with LWRC, KAC, or BCM. For a battle rifle go with LWRC or KAC. For optics go with Trijicon, Aimpoint, Schmidt and Bender, etc. I like the style of FN in that they sell just a few models and stick with them. Same with HK. Also, they actually make sure their guns work prior to releasing them!

        2. I disagree that the P320 is solid. We do a lot of Department demos in Indiana and we’ve had more than one Dept. drop their P320’s for new guns because they’re failing them left and right. The P320’s in .45 ACP were an absolute nightmare for a local PD and worse, Sig wasn’t responsive to their requests for help. So, they too are switching to new pistols.

          I’ve said it many times, the P320 will go down in history as the worst service pistol the US has ever adopted. Give it a few years to see if my prediction is right.

        3. avatar Mark says:

          Tim, what type of problems are occurring with the P320 line in 9 mm? I wasn’t aware there was an issue and would like to know what to watch for. thanks for your help! I have the full size and subcompact P320 pistols and haven’t had problems so just wondering.

  18. avatar FlamencoD says:

    I don’t own a Sig, and their recent track record on newly designed guns is not inspiring me to buy one either.

  19. avatar former water walker says:

    YOW!!! Just watched Military Arms Channel 365 review. Pathetic and busted. Everyone should watch it…I’ll keep my Taurus 709 thank you. He has a gunshop(Copper Custom Armament) in nearby Valparaiso,IN. I’ll check him out…

  20. avatar Mark says:

    Other than the prior “drop safe” issue with the P320 line, are there any other problems going on with the P320 series? I have several of the P320 full size models and enjoy them very much, but I am concerned about the ongoing QC issues with Sig these days. I have heard of issues with the P320 X-VTAC line, but I consider that a slightly different platform when compared to the standard P320 line.

    1. avatar tdiinva says:

      The P320 issue was an intrinsic design flaw and not poor quality control. The P320 is little more than a converted P250. Since the P250 was a DAO hammer fired pistol it was drop safe. The P320 has a fully cocked striker without the trigger safety feature of Glock style pistols. It originally had the same trigger as the P250 which was a recipe for a drop unsafe pistol. Sig should have recognized this from the beginning and redesigned the trigger or built it with the same manual as specified in the M17 RFP. The same people who are afraid to carry a cocked and locked 1911 or BHP think nothing of carrying a safetyless P320 with a fullly cocked striker just because you can’t see it. The design really requires the thumb safety but Sig knew few people would have bought it.

  21. avatar Greg says:

    You can blame Cohen CEO of Sig. Guy ruined Kimber’s rep. Sig QC is in the toilet my 30 years old P226 beater out performed my buddies legion recently.

  22. avatar Jay in Florida says:

    I was a beta tester for the P238. My gun was back to Sig CS 4 times in less then a year and 4k rounds through it. Still can’t fire double taps. I waited 3 years before buying the P938. So far so good. I think I’d wait another year or so before going anywhere near this one. If at all.

  23. avatar KMc says:

    Evidently the “unwashed masses” don’t read gun reviews because we are still selling them as soon as they hit our door. Your mileage will vary….a lot, it seems.

    1. avatar Adam says:

      People see that 10 round magazine in a pocket gun and get excited. They don’t realize that a 6 round gun that fires > a 10 round gun that doesn’t fire.

  24. avatar J.T. says:

    I usually like to wait for a gun to have been out a few years before getting one to make sure all the bugs are worked out and the old stock of earlier guns is gone.

  25. avatar Cea says:

    Newer production Sig pistols=CRAP!!!
    I know from some sickening (and very expensive!) experience.

  26. avatar Charlie says:

    We picked one up last week, and it shoots low with every round we tried in it (Winchester NATO 115 JHP and 124 JHP, Rem 124 JHP) at 15 yds. I don’t know what’s going on with that because we’re shooting dead on with the CZ-75 and the Sig P-239.

    Charlie

  27. avatar John in AK says:

    Wow! This is obviously the Greatest Gun Ever Made! It slices, it dices, it folds neatly in half and fits into a jacket pocket, it’s got a finger rest and says SIG on the side, and it holds a couple more more rounds than other guns its size!
    . . . Except sometimes, with brand-new guns, its critical parts break and it won’t fire.
    That must make having those extra useless rounds SUCH a comfort.

    “IF you shoot at a king, be sure to kill him; If you are going to copy Glock, just go ahead and COPY the damn’ thing, get it right, pay the royalty fees, and move on.”

  28. avatar Vahn Geo says:

    Yet another “breathless” article about the end of the world courtesy of TTAG and JS. Yawn.

  29. avatar Paul Simpson says:

    I won’t cc ANY semi auto. I’ll stick with my S&W Airweight snubby. No failures to feed, reasonable power & 5 ready to go.

    1. avatar Mark says:

      Hope you never have to reload or you are dead.

      1. avatar Danny L Griffin says:

        A guy on a gun board I used to frequent used to carry a .357 revolver. He thought he was more than equipped–until he had an encounter with a group of guys one evening. Fortunately for him everything turned out okay, but the “what-ifs” scared him so much he now carries a double stack semi-auto and spare mags.

        1. avatar Mark says:

          Exactly. These guys carrying 6 rounds never stop to realize that criminals travel in packs. Even if “only 2” guys jump you those 6 rounds are gonna be dicey and if you have a wheel gun you aren’t going to be able to reload so you are fucked. I carry a shit ton of ammo on me. My smallest duty gun has a minimum of 15 + 1 (VP9), but more typically 17 + 1 (Glock 17/34, Walther PPQ, FN509, Sig P320 Full Size, Beretta APX, CZ P10C, Steyr L9-A1), or even 18 + 1 if I’m carrying my TP9SF. I have 2 spare mags (that’s another 34 rounds) and a back up gun in my pocket (Glock 26 with 12 + 1, VP9SK with 13 + 1, or P320 SC 12 + 1). Overkill? Absolutely! But that’s ok. No one ever walked away from a gun fight saying “I wish I didn’t have so much ammo.”

        2. avatar Jeremy S. says:

          Revolvers jam. I’ve had a Smith lock up on me. A couple others, too. This P365 came straight out of the box and fired 1,000 rounds of every type of ammo possible without a hiccup. Reliable is reliable. Plenty of revolvers will get you there and plenty of semis, too.

        3. avatar Danny L Griffin says:

          If you are up close and personal with an attacker and you pull a revolver and he grabs it, you’re screwed. It will not fire since the cylinder cannot rotate. You’re not at war in Iraq at distance, you’re in a parking lot. At least with a semi-auto it will fire once, then you’ll have to rack it by hand once the bad guy steps back after getting hit.

        4. Yup, revolvers do jam up. That’s why you’ll never see me carrying one. When a revolver jams it’s because brass or copper shavings got into the lock work during practice (I’ve had this happen twice) and if you carry one in your pocket you better stop. Lint gets into EVERYTING. When it gets into my pocket auto’s it takes me 5 minutes to clean out. When it gets into your lock work, it takes hours to clean and most people won’t clean it because they don’t clean the guts of a revolver. Lastly, you put an awful lot of faith in ammo makers because I’ve seen bullet walk out of the case under recoil and jam the revolver up and I’ve seen primer back out and jam the revolver up. If that happens, you better have a back up. In all of these scenerios the self loader reigns supreme which is why militaries went to autos 80 some years ago and why PD’s went to them 30 some years ago. If you really think your revolver is more reliable than a modern auto you don’t shoot much.

        5. avatar Brian says:

          Curiously, yes, it turned out OK. Six was fine. End of story. You miss the point. Shoot more, build confidence.

        6. avatar Danny L Griffin says:

          Curiously, yes, it turned out OK. Six was fine. End of story. You miss the point. Shoot more, build confidence.

          Tell that to Tim Gramins.

      2. avatar Brian says:

        The usual bull. The need for reloads in civilian encounters is vanishingly small. You are merely projecting your preconceptions in place of the truth, to bend the argument in your favor. Keep on moving; we stopped listening to you quite a while ago.

        1. avatar Mark says:

          The need for a reload might be very likely if you are only carrying 6 rounds. There are many instances of self defense gun uses involving more than 6 shots fired. That was my point. If you have a 6 shot revolver as your primary gun you could be in trouble if you are trying to fend off multiple attackers. But you are free to move on and carry your six shooter.

    2. avatar Brian says:

      Paul, you are spot on.
      The urban myth machine is working overtime here! There is just no – NO – evidence that reloads or more than five rounds are a significant factor in the VAST (V-A-S-T) majority of civilian shootings. Indeed, it is hard to show that reloads or high capacity are significant in most LEO shootings! The truth is irrelevant, however. The rumor mill and prejudice has to roll on: now it is metal shavings in the guts of a revolver, or a greater probability of lint or grit seizing the gun up, compared to the autoloader (when the opposite is true). Those who trot out such garbage again and again, louder and louder, only display their lack of experience with revolvers, and their willingness to fabricate objections. I’ve shot tens of thousands of rounds, factory and handloads, in practice, competition, and hunting, with S&W, Ruger, and Colt revolvers without a single failure. That is reliability! (Or was I just lucky?)

      The revolver is alive and well in 2018, and we should be glad of it, as we should be glad of the great reliabilitity of modern autoloaders. It is a great thing to have both! It is NOT a zero-sum game in which if revolvers are proven more reliable, autoloaders must be less reliable! So stop acting as if that were the case! Open your minds – or does that hurt too much?

      What we should bemoan, is the cesspool of rumor and innuendo which renders forums like this one much less useful for real discussion, much less useful than they might otherwise be. Very sad. What a waste.

      1. avatar Danny L Griffin says:

        There is just no – NO – evidence that using a gun is a significant factor in the VAST (V-A-S-T) majority of civilian encounters. So why even carry one?

        Insurance you say? That’s why you carry more than six rounds.

        Using your logic, that you probably won’t need more than six rounds, leads to the conclusion that you shouldn’t carry a gun because you probably will never use it.

        1. avatar Brian says:

          Sorry, but that is a well-known faultly logic going back to antiquity. You could use it to build a case that because lifeboats failed on the Titanic, no ships should therefore bother to carry them.

          By the way, I often carry both a revolver and a P938 or now, P365. But I’d feel okay with any one of them. Or my H&K VP 9. But I also know the stats, as do other good instructors like Grant Cunningham.

          Actually, the chances of needing to use a firearm in self-defense ARE vanishing small. And if produced, unlikely to be fired. This is especially true if one uses common sense, and as the great John Farnam advised, avoided doing stupid things in stupid places, with stupid people. A firearm is the very ladt, stopgap measure. As I have always told my students, first fasten your seat belt and learn to drive well, and then learn CPR and care of trauma victims (which is why I have taught thousands CPR and first aid as a volunteer instructor over a number of decades, and I know for sure that saves more lives than all my CCW teaching).

          I doubt if we really disagree as much as we might seem to. You seem like a pretty reasonable, good guy! Much more reasonable than some folks on here. Forgive me if you can, when I get touchy on certain topics. I have just done a LOT of research. I try to get things right.

        2. avatar Dan Griffin says:

          Life boats didn’t fail on the Titanic. They didn’t have enough. Plus a few were wasted. Sound familiar?

          I don’t think you researched as much as you think you did. Do you know what the standard deviation is for shots fired? It’s so large that the average is meaningless. Math is your friend.

          It sure would suck if one day you used your six rounds but needed a few more.

        3. avatar Danny L Griffin says:

          Brian, here’s an article I wrote for Ammoland a few years ago (four years ago, wow, doesn’t seem like that long).

          https://www.ammoland.com/2014/02/ammo-how-much-is-enough-when-carrying-for-self-defense/

        4. avatar Danny L Griffin says:

          Allow me to post one comment from one article review.

          I’m not going to say if I agree or disagree with past comments but I will say this. Regardless of the fact that I have seen combat and what bullets really do. the ones that are against carrying extra rounds are speaking badly about it without understanding why. First of all the guy who goes to the range and fires one shot is an f-ing moron and if you think he’s a bad ass your a moron too. Fact is this, You don’t carry extra rounds because you plan on getting into a shoot out with 17 guys, the point is it might take 17 rounds to stop one attacker. If you think that’s crazy, guess what? your a moron! P.S. Since probably just one of you that has posted might have been in a real life stress situation, If you think your making head shots especially with a revolver during an attack, guess what? you are a moron. Ill bet my retirement check no one here trains as much as they should anyway and will probably crap themselves if they ever did have to pull a weapon and probably forget they even have it. Closing thought; Like I tell all my students, Just because you have a gun does not make you a bad ass but knowing how to use it just might allow you to get away.

          Oh, and I’ve taken some advanced training. All the instructors agree, you must carry spare ammo! I don’t know one single instructor who disagrees with this. Apparently you are an instructor so you are the first.

        5. avatar Brian says:

          Danny, I will gladly read what you have posted llinks to, as I hope I am still willing to learn. Thank you for making it available!

          I have taken considerable advanced training, beginning in the the 1980s. I would not say I am EVER against carrying extra ammo, nor have I said so, but I certainly still do not think that reloads have been shown to play a signifiicant role in civilian encounters. As a professional researcher and college science professor, now of a fair number of years, I know quite well how to analyze and deal with complex data.

          You might check some of Grant Cunningham’s recent posts on the (lack of) importance of civilian reloads, and the role or teaching reloading in typical training. I’d rather you read it directly in his words, not mine, and follow his sources. He is hardly the only one who is de-emphasizing reloading in training, in favor of skills which have been proven to be more important. As for the many instructors who are less qualified than people like Mr. Cunningham, well, what else is new. I think the bar has been set very low for instructor qualification, both in terms of real-life knowledge and certainly for teaching ability!

          One question: if you are in fact attacked by say, four thugs, how many will you have to shoot to cause them to break off the attack? Four? Three? Hardly likely. Two? Maybe? One? Yeah, that’ll make your point. If these “gangs” are indeed so common, why don’t we hear a lot more about multiple shootings? When did you last hear about four or three attackers shot in self-defense? How about two? Once it becomes apparent that a “victim” is willing to defend herself or himself, it is likely that additional volunteers to become the next one shot will become, well, “scarce.” I keep a double-barreled shotgun handy for home-defense. The quickest first and second shotgun shots known. After one barrel has put one attacker down, how anxious do you think another attacker to the next load of buckshot in tbe chest or abdomen? I hardly think anyone is thinking, “He’s only got one more shot” (and that would be totally ignoring my backup, which would be a “New York reload”).

          The Internet has been the source of a terrific amount of total BS “data” which never amounts to anything, as it is all urban myths. I have tried following that will O’ the wisp before. I, for one, have found much better sources. You can find them, too, if you will dig for them. Start with good people, such as Grant Cunningham and people he links to.

          Incidentally, I think one might have considerable legal difficulty explaining why one shot three or four assailants. It just doesn’t happen.

          I truly mean no disrespect. But as a long-time certified defense instructor, I have a moral duty to present training which is based on real risk, and not percieved risk as hyped up by the Internet. There is a HUGE difference between the two, as I am sure you know. I assure you, if you look at instructors who have real-life credentials, you will find many who will agree that extra ammo at hand is always a good idea -I fully support that- but also know many, many other skills come first, before emphasizing reloading skills, in a crowded, already too-short curriculum. (Indeed, why would I sometimes carry an H&R VP9 with 16 rounds if I didn’t think extra rounds are a good idea; but note, I don’t plan on a reload.)

          I hardly ever stand alone in anything I teach. How could I? That would worry me! I follow my betters. I am not an original! I just work with and follow the people who are very, very careful, and critical, about where they obtain their data before they accept it as representing the “real-world.” You just need to dig to find this sort of worthwhile “paydirt” in place of the self-proclaimed Internet experts, who are far too plentiful!!!!!!!

          Again, thank you for the good natured -actually, lovely- way you have been so patient with me, to the point of supplying links for me to follow. You are a gentleman, sir! Even if I cannot reply here, I will read them, and with an open mind. I claim no monopoly on truth, or immunity to being wrong. I honestly think that, if were were discussing this over a beer, we’d have found our our common ground quickly, and recognized that our differences are ones of degree and not of any sort of absolute differences. If we ever get that chance, the first rounds are on me, and I’ll be a very willing listener. If I have given a different impression, I do indeed apologize.

        6. avatar Brian says:

          This has to be fit in here somewhere. Who are we talking as the gun carrier? I don’t have the luxury of teaching gun enthusiasts. My students come to state-mandated CCW courses, and I am lucky if I can convince the class that practicing twice a year is necessary. Don’t argue with me about it. It is what it is. Want to change that? Then they won’t come or bother or bother to become certified. Your choice.

          So what do I teach in eight hours? How much time on “reloading” whan I need to communicate fine points about the law and shoot/don’t shoot situations? Get real. Come down to Earth. I am not teaching hobbyists. Oh how I wish I were! Yes, I say, ALWAYS carry extra ammo, and I even suggest how it can be used. But what else -much more vital- do I cut out of that day’s course? Please tell me. How much time do I spend on reloading skills that will NEVER be used?

          Stop applying what is true in your “tactical hobbyist” world to my real world demands. The state hold me respondible, and I teach because I know I am at least a profesdional teacher. I think this is a lot of the difference of opinion exhibited here. I have to spend time explaining what “caliber” is.

          You guys live in your own world, and it is a pretty rarefied atmosphere. Stop projecting upon the rest of us your conceits. Come down from Olympus, get certified, and teach a course or twelve. Then see if you still talk so big about changing things, when you are still finishing up your eight-hour course at hour eleven.

          Thanks for all your help. I’ll see you Saturday from 7 am until 9 pm. We can finish up on Sunday.

        7. avatar Danny L Griffin says:

          As I wrote four years ago, gun magazines and police departments are full of tales where the bad guy was shot multiple times and was still able to seriously injure or kill the good guy. Don’t depend on one or two shots being enough to stop a threat. Don’t assume a lone attacker.

          Take your “average” rounds required and try to convince your local PD that they can get by with nothing more than a Kel-Tec P-3AT. After all, who needs more than six rounds?

        8. avatar MilitaryArms says:

          Yup, my friend in a PD got into a shooting with a suspect armed with an AK. He shot the guy 14 times hitting him in the lower abdomen and legs. He survived and was later killed in a gang incident.

          There are many times far more than 5 or 7 rounds are fired in fights. People always talk about averages. “Well the average gun fight lasts for 3 rounds” they may say (and which is totally fabricated as they will never be able to cite the source).

          Let’s parented it’s a factual stat for a moment. That means someone ended a fight with one round and someone else fired far more, perhaps 17 or more.

          I don’t plan my defensive strategy around averages. I plan it around giving myself the best advantage I can within reason. That means prepare for the worst and hope for the best. If you carry 5 rounds in a revolver your banking on a best case scenario.

        9. avatar Brian says:

          Read the longer posting, and it was well-stated. But . . . In the end, there is still a dismal failure to distinguish between LEO situation, isolated and very rare horrific civilian cases, and the great majority of civilian shootings. No, I do not think I have failed to research -over the past 35 years- the topic deeply enough. We can definitely make useful generalizations from the data we have about civilian self-defense shootings. And we have to. Most of the people we teach will never adopt a tactical lifestyle; or even practice anywhere near often enough. Most of my students I get for one CCW class, even if I try to coax them back for some free practice. They don’t “have the time.” So what do we teach? How to reload properly and quickly? It is just not a high priority.

          (Also, we can use common sense in addition to data. Given the close proximity of people when a civilian shooting occurs, a matter of a few feet, just when and where are these reloads going to take place? Can we really picture “the gunfight in the Walmart parking lot?” If one travels to isolated places, however, not only are reloads definitely recommended, a high-capacity primary arm and a back up “N Y Reload” weapon would be wise. I’ve been there and done that myself. Heck, bring an armed friend along, too, someone handy with a shotgun.)

          Instead of wasting elementary students’ time on learning to become adepts at reloads they will never need to make, instructors need to leave their tactical-lifestyle mindsets for a moment, and focus on teaching students (1) to avoid being targets and (2) to hit what they need to hit. Carry reloads by all means. Practice reloading when you are reloading at the range. You need to reload anyway. Of course. But what will save your life is recognizing danger, moving rather than standing still, moving towards cover, and being able to effectively put your rounds where they need to go into the body of an attacker. Where is this tactically an error?
          In the great -or, yes, “vast” – majority of instances, civilians are just not going to get the additional chances to use those reloads. By that time, the shooting is over and you understand just what Bill Jordan meant by “no second place winner.”
          There will always be (as Colt advertised for years) an advantage to having six rather than five shots (“make that sixth one count” was their ad copy, I think, a clear swipe at S&W), and better to have seven than six, and ten than nine. But the stats for civilians show, even if you carry six or ten, it is the FIRST two, three, or maybe four rounds that are the deciding shots. Don’t we owe it to students to focus most heavily on making those shots? (It’s not that different from hunting medium to big game; any expetienced hunter knows that, in a very real sense, the first shot is the “only” shot. Screw that one up and the next three or four might not be enough to dig you out of the trouble you’re now in. The late Jim Cirrillo of the NYPD wrote that there was much to be learned about self-defense shooting from hunting.)

          Our brave LEOs have to face tougher odds and situations, and need a wider, and different, range of tactical tools, as well as more firepower at hand. Don’t mix apples with oranges. And God bless everyone.

        10. avatar Brian says:

          In addition to my own quite extensive research (and I am a college scince professor of 35 years who knows how to check things out), you can learn:

          “. .. . why they really don’t need to be carrying 17+1 and 3 extra mags in normal civilian life, how average rounds fired in such situations is only about 2 per your study. . . .”

          -See: https://tacticalprofessor.wordpress.com/online-information-sources/sources-of-information-about-deadly-force-incidents/

          You can check the impressive list of references at that site, and please let me know exactly where you can find any better sources with which to refute the facts in this matter. I’d really like to know, but I won’t be holding my breath. (My own research sources happen to largely overlap his, which is by chance, but not surprising.). I prefer facts to “17-rounds-is-a-bare-minimum-paranoia any day”.

          Carry a sensible number of rounds and practice until you are expert -and confident- with your handgun. Then practice enough to stay that way. That means more than any “round count”. At one time, a pistol with a big magazine meant you owned a Browning Hi Power! This has gotten out of hand!

          The fact that I like to carry either a Sig 250 with ten .45 ACPs, or an H&K VP9 stoked with 16 or 17 9mm 124-grain JHPs, doesn’t mean I won’t have only my S&W 5-shot J-frame airweight on me if trouble strikes. I feel fully confident the last-named little friend will be up to the the task -or I wouldn’t be carrying it, now would I? Really, if I expected a gun fight what I’d bring . . . . Would be the local police and their friends.

          Stay safe.

  30. avatar tinhats says:

    Jeremy, what holster do you have displayed with the 365??

    1. avatar Jeremy S. says:

      Actually, interesting story there (at least to me haha). I was headed to the NRA show and had just put the first 200 rounds through this gun without issue so I decided to start carrying it. Needed a holster quick so I could bring it with me to NRA. Hopped on Amazon and decided to get something with Prime shipping and as cheap as possible, assuming I would replace it later with a good holster.

      I bought this one: https://amzn.to/2kFQkvh

      It’s great! EXACTLY what I prefer in an IWB holster and the finish and quality is top notch. Couldn’t ask for more. Super clean, edges are flawless and rounded and such, mold job and trigger guard cut and sight groove and whatnot are spot on, etc etc. I won’t be “upgrading,” if that’s even possible 🙂

  31. avatar PAMAX Tactical says:

    Jeremy,

    Interested in submitting a product for review. What is the best way to contact you?

    Sincerely,
    Macson McGuirk
    PAMAX Tactical

  32. avatar MilitaryArms says:

    Thanks for the write-up. I would like to point out that I’m not an early adopter. My gun is a v2 that was produced after Sig stopped production to fix; 1) failures to go into battery, 2) peening of the barrel, 3) sights failing.

    You can tell the v1 guns from the v2 (since Sig won’t tell you) by the front sight. As the early sights were failing, Sig went to a new supplier. The v1 sights feature a white dot in the front. The v2 guns will have a green ringed front sight.

    My P365 is a v2. Mine returned into battery, has no signs of barrel peening and the sights didn’t fall out while shooting. However, I have excessive striker drag on the primers much like those pictured in this article and mine broke the trigger reset spring at the 800 round mark.

    There needs to be a v3 before I give the gun another chance. Right now there are far too many reports of failures like mine and striker failures to trust my life to this gun.

    Sig got so much right with this gun, but once again their QC causes widespread problems. You either get a ringer or a lemon, it depends on the luck of the draw.

  33. avatar LEO Bob says:

    I am not a Sig “Fanboy” by any stretch of the imagination but I read through these comments and wonder why all the hate. Sig has broken the mold and will force a major redesign across the concealed weapon platform with this new 10+1 and 12+1 technology. Yes there will be a few hiccups but if you are buying a P365 right now YOU SHOULD KNOW THIS. You are buying a pioneer pistol. There is a chance there may be problems.

    Again not sticking up for Sig but I see all these torture test videos. I for one dont feel this gun was intended for torturous purposes. You want a work horse pick up a Glock 19 or a P320. This was solely designed as a concealed carry weapon. For most of the customer base I dont think they will see many problems when the bugs get fixed. Most people dont put 1000 rounds in one range session through there back up gun or concealed gun just saying.

    1. avatar Cea says:

      Humm, broken the mould? Have you ever seen a sccy cpx pistol? They have been around for something like 10 years. Other than the trigger, Sig didn’t do anything earth shaking. Same size and capacity.
      Oh yeah, they did introduce another MIM turd! Go Sig…

    2. I guess you missed the Taurus G2C or even the SCCY pistols, both who “broke the mold” before Sig and theirs aren’t breaking left and right.

      I also don’t consider shooting a gun torturing it. When you go to the range to shoot and practice with your carry gun, do you feel like you’re torturing it?

      For not being a Sig fanboy you certainly have their silly arguments down pat.

      1. avatar Jeremy S. says:

        Heck, seems like most of the P365s with catastrophic failures broke within 100 rounds. Not even the hardcore Left thinks that’s torture!

        …Kel-Tec P11 beat the P365 to the micro compact polymer frame double stack game by 23 years. Its size and capacity starts are almost identical (slightly smaller!). MSRP is $250 less. Yeah, it’s a Kel-Tec, but apparently so is the SIG 😉

        1. My inbox is flooded with reports of failures. Some happen in the first magazine and some happen at 1k rounds. It’s hard to predict. That’s why as much as I love everything about the P365, I will likely never trust it. Given my failure at such a high round count I’ll always wonder if I’m one round away from another failure.

          I plan to put the steel strike upgrade in my second pistol. I also plan to shoot it and carefully watch for trigger spring drag marks. If I see them, I will take a few thou off the tail of the spring. If I can get it to fire 1500 trouble free rounds I may go with it.

          You shouldn’t have to buy a $100 striker for your $500 gun because Sig won’t use a more durable material than MIM on such as high stress part (given the lateral forces).

    3. For all you Sig owners, stop shooting 500 rounds in an afternoon, or just stop shooting altogether, and you won’t break your guns. Jesh, who buys a gun to shoot it? Dumb asses! They’re made for looking at, not shooting! Quit your bitching and go put that Sig in the safe where it belongs!

      1. avatar Brian says:

        Jeez! At least your comments here, Mil Arms, and those of the revolver haters (how did we ever make it through all those years with tevolvers without your deeply precious insights and urban myth tales?) have taught me that civility in discussion has gone to BELOW the dogs. I won’t waste my time here again. I already caution my students against you self-styled web-warriors, and now I need to take advice myself. Do you guys ever bother to read what you write? For shame, for shame! You are writers who merely pretend to be shooters.

        What ever happened to simply looking for the truth together, and arriving at reasonable conclusions/opinions? We don’t need to agree. But the way it is now, we don’t even need the anti-gunners; we’re doing a damn fine job of poisoning our own well ourselves.

        1. avatar MilitaryArms says:

          Lighten up Francis, it was a joke.

          As for “urban myths”, you mean actual experiences I’ve had? Just because you choose to remain in the dark and cling to your antiques that were dropped by most every Military and police department decades ago doesn’t mean my actual experiences are “urban myth”.

          You can’t take a tongue in cheek post and you get all bent out of shape because your experiences don’t mirror my own. You might want to caution your listers about your own silly internet posts that aren’t based on experience.

  34. avatar Don Smith says:

    I have two SIG P365’s. So far I have zero failures. If I do have a failure, Sig is going to fix it. I believe in the P365, and it’s platform. Once all the bugs are worked out, it will be AWESOME! And if any gum manufacturing company can do better out the gate, let me know, so I can let Sig know to do BETTER! SEMPER FI.

  35. avatar Steve says:

    I am trying to understand what is so amazing about this pistol. I understand it has a capacity 4 rounds greater than many similarly sized competitors, but otherwise, it is a semi-automatic pistol that shoots 9mm bullets. Most of us thankfully will never have to use our carry weapon. If I do, I am confident my Glock 43 with 6+1 or greater if I use magguts will handle any threat I encounter. Carry an extra magazine, but I have to believe any fight where I have dump a magazine to get out of is one I shouldn’t be in in the first place. Seriously, how many of us are going to get attacked by a gang of people in our everyday routines? If we are attacked and shots are fired, don’t you think your attackers in most instances are going to get hit or flee? Do you think they are going to stick around to figure out how many rounds you have left? This whole notion of fending off multiple perps is just crazy to me. Yes, everyone has an anecdote about how their friend encountered this or that, but reality for most of us is that we will never fire a shot at anyone. If I have to, I am certain my Glock will get the job done reliably for much less than this Sig that is only fascinating to people because it holds a few more bulliets.

    1. avatar Jeremy S. says:

      Yes that’s right, given the option to carry 7 rounds or 11 rounds in guns effectively identical in size and weight, I’m going to choose 11. But that’s just me. And like almost everyone else.

  36. avatar Steve says:

    Also, the magazines for this pistol are $50 + . That insane. If you already have a Glock 42/43, LC9, Shield, etc. , I see no reason to buy this gun. If you don’t have a micro-compact pistol, you can buy a number of other guns that are more reliable and cheaper. Magazines are also cheaper in other options. Everyone is always wanting the latest and greatest, but if you stop and think about it, what are you buying the damn thing for to begin with? A gun this size is not to just shoot at the range. It is meant to be carried. Like MAC has been saying, do you really want that doubt in your mind that the next round you fire might be the one that breaks the firing pin? So what, you have four more rounds. Can you seriously put yourself in a situation where you have to pull the trigger 10 times? Is it more likely you will have fire 10 times or more likely the gun will fail you?I think based on the tack record so far, the answer is pretty clear.

    1. avatar Old Guy in Montana says:

      No problemo…you carry what you’re comfortable with and I’ll carry my P365 (which I’ve grown very comfortable with). I’d rather be tried by my twelve than carried by your six…

    2. avatar Brian says:

      The mags are a little over $40 each if you look around. Check Brownells on a sale day.

      The Sig p938 has a perfectly fine mag capacity, but the p365 is just sort of neat. Anything wrong with that? Who needs another mag? The trigger is great, as is the accuracy (but we have that on the p938 as well). I’m happy with my S&W revolver with five, too. Over 4000 rounds w/o a hitch. Maybe I’ll carry both.

      We don’t have to have a deep soul-searching reason for every choice, do we?

  37. avatar Reggie B says:

    I may not agree with everything MAC says or his political views. However he is dead right about this gun. He has audience and I would consider him negligent to not take a stand against a flawed product. I own Sigs, Glocks, S&Ws, etc. but I won’t buy a P365, ever. My daily carry is a G43. Sometimes I’ll carry my G42 when walking for my workout or my G36, G26 or P30SK when going to movies. I have other pistols but rarely carry them. When I do carry a firearm, my life depends on it. The P365 was on my short list, but I’ll move on. MAC, stay the course and stay neutral as you always do.

  38. avatar Stuart says:

    I have a Sig 365 because I like how it felt in my hand. Loved shooting it and expected that the firing pin would break…but no…the trigger went dead one day after MAC put up his video. I had carried it one day… I am NOT a SIG fan boy, but I own several of their handguns and rifles, and the last 3 have had to be sent back to the factory. I had sworn I would not buy another but this 365 was hard to resist . I consider that I paid $1.18 per shot fired till it broke….

  39. avatar Deb C says:

    Despite the known issues I bought a P365 and picked it up June 29. Today is July 4 and I have approximately 500 rounds through the gun. No indication of trigger spring issues yet, firing pin doing fine. However over 2 days of shooting it (July 2 and 3 – probably 250-300 rounds) 3 failure to extract with a double feed and 2 slide locked open with ammo still in the magazine. I have never had a gun do that – slide not opening on an empty mag, many times. But never locking open with ammo available in the mag.

    I have allowed 3 friends to try it out and they all love it. But…. it’s going back to Sig for analysis and repair, I hope. Like many others I want to love this gun – well I do, but worried about carrying it. I usually do not run so many rounds in a new gun so quickly but because of all the issues I went ahead and got 500 through pretty fast for me.

    Has anyone else had the malfunctions I did? No hard failures but very annoying malfunctions nonetheless.

    1. avatar Gary V says:

      Yes, I have had these same problems. I bought mine in May, and have just over 1000 rounds through it. At right about 250 rounds, it started locking back with one round remaining in the mag. At first it only did it occasionally, but now it does it about every other mag. I thought it might be the mag I was using, but I switched mags and it still does it. I’ve looked closely at this, and just can’t figure it out. It’s always only on the last round.

      Never had any extraction problems until I got to about 900 rounds. In the last 150 rounds I had two failures to extract. I’ve also had two rounds fail to fire on the first try. Although, the primer looks like it got a good deep strike, so it might be the ammo. But I don’t get anywhere near the degree of primer swipe shown in the article. Anyway, it’s going back to Sig ASAP.

  40. avatar dandaman says:

    So $500 + for the gun and then $100+ for a steel striker? Close to $700. I can buy 3 new Kel-Tec P9’s or 2 new S&W Shields for that and don’t have to worry about failures that can get you killed if you need to defend yourself. No thanks.

    Sig used to be top quality but since the P320 & P365? Not so much.

    1. avatar Danny L Griffin says:

      AIM has S&W M&P’s for $279 right now. You could buy two, extra mags, and some practice ammo.

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