Understanding the Civilian Disarmament Mindset

There are a significant number of people in the United States who have chosen not to own firearms, and who want the government to ensure as many other Americans as possible are forcibly disarmed. They are a small, but vocal minority. To most people in the gun culture, this is an alien mindset.

It’s worthwhile to try to understand the other side of an argument. The anti-gun left routinely attempts to shout down and silence gun rights supporters. One of the strengths of Second Amendment supporters is the willingness to engage with people who would like to see them forcibly disarmed.

There is a simple way to understand the thinking of most people who want you disarmed.

Make the internal assumption, for the sake of understanding them, that you have deliberately chosen to be unarmed. It isn’t that hard to do. Being armed requires effort. You have to choose to be responsible. You have to practice self-discipline. You adopt safe gun handling practices and you train. You think about unpleasant possibilities and plan for them. In many states, becoming armed takes considerable legal effort. You have to devote time and money to be being a gun owner.

Once the decision has been made to be unarmed, many of their reactions to gun owners become understandable.  Unarmed people are often uncomfortable around those of us who own and carry guns. Armed people have a significant power advantage over unarmed people. Many unarmed people don’t want to be reminded that armed people have that power. To avoid this, they want to force other people to be disarmed.

That explains why some unarmed people dislike concealed carry, but absolutely hate open carry. Open carry forces them to confront the power differential they have chosen. It reminds them of an unpleasant reality and they feel intimidated.

People are more accepting of information that reinforces their personal choices. If you’ve chosen to be unarmed, you want to hear news items that validate that choice. If a health professional tells you that keeping or bearing arms makes you less safe in your home and on the street, you will have an intrinsic bias toward believing them.

If a politician proposes that restrictions be placed on gun owners and gun buyers, that makes perfect sense to you. You don’t own a gun or intend to buy a gun, so these proposals are perceived to be without personal cost. The only costs are born by the people who have chosen to own firearms. People, by nature, are willing to impose costs on other people, if they don’t have to pay anything themselves.

Any restriction on people being armed will appear to be a positive. The fewer armed people those who are unarmed have to contend with, the better. It doesn’t matter how useless or senseless the restriction, how draconian, how expensive, how ineffective it may be. The deliberately unarmed perceive the personal costs to be zero. Fewer guns, less fear of an imbalance of power on their part.

If you have chosen to be unarmed, you probably don’t have much knowledge about firearms and how they work.  Learning and knowing about guns is one of the costs that people avoid by choosing to be unarmed. When gun owners point out technical mistakes in articles and legislation concerning guns, it strikes the unarmed as meaningless, pedantic babble. Semi-automatic, automatic…who cares? You are not interested in guns, so technical distinctions are beside the point.

Because you have chosen to be unarmed, you know you need an armed protector to keep you safe. That would be the government. To make such a choice, you assume that the government is benevolent, concerned with your safety, and always available in time of need. It helps to assume the need for an armed protector is minimal. Thus, unarmed people constantly attempt to minimize potential threats to their safety and the need for armed protection.

That explains the arguments put forward that claims crime in big cities really isn’t a problem, the government could never become tyrannical, the danger posed by wild animals is minimal and government is often ineffective during emergencies. It explains why so much effort is expended to hide or discredit the millions of times firearms are used for self defense and to prevent crime.

The decision to be unarmed depends on a perceived high cost of being armed, and perceived low benefits to being armed. Every successful example of a defensive gun use works against that perception. Hence, the frequent ridiculous arguments such as the “right to feel safe” denigrating gun owners as “ammosexuals” and bigots.

Much of the propaganda from those who want a disarmed population is aimed at creating the impression that armed citizens present a net cost, rather than a net benefit.

Several methods to counter the mind-set of the deliberately unarmed can be effective. All work to show benefits of being armed (or allowing others to be armed) and the costs to those who choose not to own guns.

One of the strongest is to convince deliberately unarmed people that having armed citizens makes them safer. That they use their firearms millions of times a year to prevent crimes, frequently resulting in criminals behind bars. They need to know that legally armed citizens are not a threat, but actually prevent crimes that threaten them.

People who obtain carry permits have been shown to be more law abiding than police officers. They have stopped numerous crimes and yes, even some mass shootings. They have saved police officers’ lives. This information supports the idea that armed citizens are a significant benefit to society and protectors of unarmed people. They are assets, rather than a danger. Being polite and reasonable during personal or Internet discussions helps to promote this thought.

Reducing the cost of being armed makes an unarmed person more willing to see being armed as a potential choice. If you can bring an unarmed person to a range and ensure they have a good time, you will have significantly increased the information they have about guns and gun owners. Having that information decreases their perceived cost (and their fear) of being armed.

Another way to reduce the perception of the costs of being armed is to educate them about the tremendous strides made in reducing fatal firearm accidents in the United States. In the last 90 years, the number of fatal firearm accidents has been reduced by 94%. Most people don’t know that.

Showing unarmed people that being armed might be useful in the future gives them an incentive to keep their options open. The key is to educate them about problems that being armed can reduce or solve. This should be done in a non-threatening way. Giving them examples of individuals who used firearms to defend themselves or their loved ones can be very effective. Explain that these stories are routinely spiked by the national media.

The desire to be armed is virtually genetic. Something as simple as watching a movie in which being armed makes a positive difference connects deeply with people at a very basic level.

Another approach is to show them that disarming the population isn’t cost-free. It’s worthwhile to remind them that there are over 400 million private firearms in the United States. Those who want the population disarmed often attempt to minimize that and what it would entail to — in terms of cost and potential violence — to seize those guns.

If people who wish to disarm the population realize there can be severe personal and societal costs to disarming a population, it changes the cost-benefit analysis significantly.

A third tactic is to show those who wish to see the population disarmed how this violates the rule of law and the Second Amendment of the Constitution. That can be a powerful argument, which is why those desiring an unarmed population spend so much time attacking and misrepresenting the Second Amendment.

A fourth tactic is to talk about the futility of disarming a population like that of the US. Do this by showing how simple it is to evade those restrictions. Show how easy guns are to make, how tribesmen with little technology make guns with ease; how criminals in places with very strict gun control still have access to guns and ammunition; how hobbyists routinely make guns and ammunition; how gun technology is really a 14th century technology. It’s hard for those who wish to see the population disarmed to argue physics and engineering.

The gun culture has the Constitution, facts, physics, and basic human nature on its side. It’s only when the information flow about these is suppressed that those who wish the population disarmed win. That’s why restrictions on gun ownership and their use are often rushed through legislatures. It’s why those opposing the Second Amendment also tend to oppose First Amendment rights. If deliberate thought and careful argument and analysis take place, Second Amendment supporters tend to win.

In the United States, above most of the rest of the world, citizens have the choice to be legally armed. Or unarmed, for that matter. Most people in the U.S. want to keep that option. Most of the rest of the world wishes it had the choice.

©2018 by Dean Weingarten: Permission to share is granted when this notice and link are included.

Gun Watch

comments

  1. avatar Bitter says:

    My Rights>your life.
    Not sure why all these people think it’s about a hobby or hunting.

    1. avatar TexTed says:

      They don’t think it’s about a hobby, or about hunting.

      They think it’s about killing people.

      In their minds, a gun is for one purpose and one purpose only — to kill a human being. Therefore, people who have guns, are willing to kill human beings — that makes them “bad” people, by definition. Which leads to the belief that the NRA, an advocate for people who own guns, is clearly a terrorist organization who has blood on their hands.

      They, on the other hand, have chosen to not have a gun. Why? Because they have no interest in killing human beings. Therefore, they are, by their own definition, the “good” people. They are the virtuous ones. They have chosen a higher plane of life. They have chosen to rise above the savage man, they are enlightened.

      That is why the gun owner is denigrated — because he is a savage, a killer, a potential murderer. He is not one of the enlightened in society. He therefore is stupid, is focused on his penis, is an “angry white male”, and he imperils all of society because of his strictly unnecessary “hobby”.

      Hobby? Yes, that is their only way to justify gun ownership. If it’s not to murder humans, then what is the purpose? To murder animals? You don’t have to — the grocery store is available to all, so if you want to murder animals, it is because deep in your heart you are a savage murderer. Hunting is incompatible with being a virtuous person, and we’ve risen beyond it as a society, so in their minds it becomes an invalid option. So what possible remaining purpose could there be? Target shooting. A hobby.

      And, as the picture shows, “my life > your hobby.” The very existence of your gun = a threat to their life, and that threat to them personally is not worth whatever enjoyment you get from your hobby, because let’s face it — you could get a BB gun or a paintball gun and still have your hobby.

      So there you have it — that is how they think. That is how they’ve been institutionally taught. That is what you’re up against. Good luck arguing against it or claiming “the 2nd amendment” — because they do not care about the rule of law, laws that were written by old dead white slave owners who have no merit because they were slave owners, and laws that do not apply to an “enlightened society.”

      And that is why they see every possible gun control measure as “the least we can do.” And once they do it, they will do more, and more. Because to them — the concept of a gun existing in society is proof that their enlightened society has failed. The gun, itself, is the enemy.

      1. avatar Ing says:

        Very well said. That’s the whole anti-gun mindset in a nutshell.

        Some of Dean’s suggested arguments might be effective on someone who is willing to critically examine her own beliefs…but those people are few and far between. (And not just on the anti-gun side, either; we all erect strong walls around our most cherished assumptions.)

        Dev’s comment below has what might be the most effective way to get these people to experience some useful cognitive dissonance.

        There’s no denying that murder happens. So set it up as a thought experiment; a simple scenario. Someone bigger/stronger/meaner than you wants to take your life simply because he believes he can.

        In that case, it’s not life vs. hobby, it’s Life vs. Life. Which way do you draw the arrow then? Whose life is worth more, yours or the person who wants to take yours away by force? There’s no “all lives are equal” in that scenario. It’s one or the other — the murderer will make it so.

        This scenario also helps to squelch the “if I use violence I’m no better than the would-be murderer” cop-out. It’s a binary choice: who’s right and who’s wrong?

        If you purposefully choose not to resist the murderer, or even to restrict yourself to inferior tools, you’re saying that the guy who initiates violence is in the right: his ability to take your life is worth more than you are. If you try to force that same choice on everyone else, then you’re effectively saying to everyone else, “Anyone who wants to hurt you is worth more than you are.”

        1. avatar Rad Man says:

          Agreed, nicely worded Ted! Dean also wrote an excellent article as he normally does.

      2. avatar Leighton Cavendish says:

        Abortion is also about killing…and nothing else…but the libs/dems are perfectly fine with 600,000+ deaths by abortion…even though those masses of cells would be hailed as life if found on any other planet
        go figure…

      3. avatar EWTHeckman says:

        It seems to me that the biggest problem with the 2nd Amendment is the situation it covers: warfare, especially against one’s own government.

        Let’s face is, war is hell. It’s massively destructive to lives, property, and attitudes. Nobody in their right mind wants war. It’s no wonder that most people are reluctant to accept that as a moral option. It’s really easy to avoid thinking about the kinds of things where a war would be the better option. I can’t really blame someone for not wanting to think about such a possibility.

        It’s just that it’s incredibly foolish to avoid considering the potential for such conflict. I find it intensely ironic that those who refuse to consider what can lead to war are the very ones pushing us towards it.

        The authors of the 2nd Amendment were very wise to recognize that there are people who aren’t in their right minds, or who want to exercise power in such a way as to fully justify the need for war. In doing so, they recognized a simple fact of human nature: even predators tend to shy away from being the aggressor when their intended victim is capable of defending themselves with vigor. That is the situation the 2nd Amendment is designed to protect: “the right of the people” to tell a would-be tyrant “No!” and make it stick, thus making it far less likely that such an insane person would not breach the peace that every rational human being craves; even those too foolish to recognize those simple facts.

        1. avatar Sam I Am says:

          It’s not that war is unthinkable for snowflakes (and their puppeteers), it is that snowflakes find the notion of a government hostile to its citizens unthinkable. Since government can never be tyrannical, there is no need for arms to limit the scope and spread of government at all.

        2. avatar SC Mike says:

          The Second Amendment is based on the right to self-defense. That certainly may include defense against government power, see the Battle of Athens (http://www.constitution.org/mil/tn/batathen.htm ), but it includes the ability to defend one’s life, family, and property from whatever threat may appear.

        3. avatar Mark G. says:

          When you consider the historical context at the time, living under the Monarchy where the King could act without due process. That has carried through to today with Communism and Socialism. They control the population. European’s have no First, second, third, or fifth amendments for their freedoms. The Gun control fight is the only issue, as stated earlier, where it is the inanimate object that is vilified. Cars kill more, Doctors kill more, and Drugs kill more than firearms do. Additionally, note all the school shootings with next to nothing done to harden the schools to prevent this from happening. As the Parkland, FL case goes it was about making money, not protecting the students.

      4. The moral superiority thread certainly exists. It is very strong in some people. Nicely written post.

    2. avatar Dev says:

      No, my response would be “My life > your life” to her. She obviously doesn’t care about me so why should I care about her?

    3. avatar Nigel the expat says:

      “They are a small, but vocal minority. ”

      And I’m going to have to disagree with Dean on that one. That group is bigger than ‘small’ and getting larger in their own group-think echo chambers. Like a virus, this ‘progressive’ thought process infects each time a prog comes in contact with another prog, and they must all follow “The Narrative”.

    4. avatar Anthony rose says:

      Instead of taking everyone’s rights away,u should try focusing on the people at hand.not all of them r bad because when a bad person does something bad u put the blame on others that could save ur life,as well.dont take country foak’s guns away it will lead to chaos,if u do u will take away their means of protection from wild creatures,not just them selves as well as the cattle and chickens.they give u mat. Like eggs leather,hamburger and others.and u mess with them there goes ur ore like copper plat,and other electric conductors for ur tech then u won’t be on ur computers because u won’t have any,it not the city u r just effecting.u will see ur cars food tech go up in price because there is a rarity of it because they don’t want to be out there without protection,then u will see those predators start to eat their way down to the cites then ur family will be in more hot water.well u can also see right now people r still pouching,still killing,still robbing,and others ,when there r laws against it.cops and other forces will not always be there for u and when they do sometimes they r to late and need proof of the crim. in order to help.its like the belt all over again I admit the belt was being used badly but when ur kids were bad sometimes that was the only way to get through to them,one of the reasons way we have so many disrespectful kids today.u guys r blaming Russia for ur mistakes,products that r not meant for that use as well,and guns when u can’t handle it when it’s right in front of u staring u dead in the face.the simple fact.u should focus on it instead of beating around the bush.u r acting like the world is a prison.but what did ur armed forces die for.our freedom.but guess what even in prisons they still try and kill one another.with shanks,and shit.im sorry but me no I vote no,keep gun the simple facts r right there.remember we didn’t always have guns in the past what makes u think the future will be any different.they still don’t use just guns.they use other means as well.

    5. avatar DaveW says:

      Because the progressive teachers have omitted teaching the truth about the Constitution and why it says what it says.

  2. avatar Gun Owning American says:

    We have all that on our side, and yet, they still win people over with emotions.

  3. avatar Barnbwt says:

    Your life < My hobby

    I don’t know you, I don’t care about you, and you’ll never do anything positive for me in your entire existence. People like you live to impinge on the happiness of people you’ll never even meet.

    You are worth less to me than anything. And don’t you forget it.

    1. avatar Ing says:

      🙂 Truth.

  4. avatar Senior Gun Owner 1950 says:

    Gun grappers:
    HELL NO!! Your math doesn’t add up.
    First is equal to Second.
    You want my guns? I want your freedom of speech!
    Your First Amendment rights in enchange for my Second Amendment rights.
    Fair Deal?
    My answer to your stupid math quiz is
    MOLON LABE
    So just STFU.

    But, if you still want my guns, how about I give them to you one bullet at a time.
    You like that deal better?

  5. avatar pieslapper says:

    If your life was actually > than my hobby, seems like you’d want to be armed to protect it. Rather than depending on the likes of say, I don’t know, the Broward County sheriffs dept. to protect it.

  6. avatar MIO says:

    Operation Orion

  7. avatar Scooter says:

    I’ve also come to realize that those who are unfamiliar with firearms tend only to hear about them in the media in a negative light. To those not in the know, guns ARE only used to hurt and kill because that’s when they usually hear about them and perception is reality. Never forget the power of the pew: grab a non-shooter, teach them the basics, get a manageable gun in their hand, and have fun burning up a box of ammo! If they refuse, go shooting anyway.

    1. avatar DaveW says:

      I believe it was 60 Minutes that did that. They took a group of anti-gun college students to a range in the Los Angeles area, taught them, then let them shoot. Almost the entire group decided they wanted to come back and shoot some more. One student still was anti-gun. Another student was no longer anti-gun but had no interest in more shooting. That’s the difference between truly educated people and those who only know what they have been told. Much like the writer who claimed to have gotten a bruised shoulder and PTSD from firing an M15. Then along comes a 14 year old girl who fires BIGGER bullets and a shotgun. The video went viral. Big strong leftist writer got shamed by a 14 year old GIRL.

  8. avatar Chris says:

    The only thing that matters is what’s important to them, their own self-interests. Nevermind the argument that disarming civilians means only disarming those who are not criminals. The same people who only want police to carry guns are the ones who also call them racist and accuse them of violating their civil rights.

  9. avatar Baldwin says:

    My Freedom>your feelz.

  10. avatar dragos111 says:

    The comment about a benevolent government caught my attention. The fact of the matter is that our government is anything but benevolent. Those in power will do whatever they can to keep that power, even if it means trampling other people’s rights or acting outright as criminals.

    Look at the Obama administration. Despite claims that they had no scandals, they actually had many. Everything from gun running to spying on Americans. Those people were downright evil in many ways.

    1. avatar DaveW says:

      Or what has happened to the once great state of California under the Moonbeam Cartel.

  11. avatar CTstooge says:

    Lady, I don’t give a rat’s ass about your life. Nobody does.

    How can I take you seriously when that sign is a kindergarten-level disgrace, obviously slapped together on the hood of your Prius in the parking lot with magic markers from your grinning commie professor husband’s fanny pack?

    If SJW is your hobby, get serious. Take some art lessons for chrissakes.

  12. avatar Chris T from KY says:

    Which is a hobby?
    My HI Point 45 pistol at $140, with after market laser site, or my Daniel Defense AR-15 at over $2000, plus several 30 round magazines?
    My bump stock was separate.

    1. avatar Chris T from KY says:

      I forgot to include my range fees and ammunition cost. They vary on how often I go to the range and attend firearm training classes. I attended three classes last year.

  13. avatar Jay in Florida says:

    I don’t care what an unarmed person happens to think. Not anymore anyway.
    They chose to be ignorant and a sheep.
    I have not, and will not depend on Government or Law Enforcement showing up way after the fact.
    I have chosen to protect myself and my family as I see fit. When and if the situation calls for it.
    And to possibly suffer the consequences if I were to make a possible error in judgment.
    I can live with that.

    1. avatar neiowa says:

      If you don’t look directly at the wolf then he isn’t really there. Kumbayah

  14. avatar Sam I Am says:

    Dean’s article is an interesting survey of motivations for “gun grabbers”. However, Dean gives too much credit for thinking, among the sheep. Dean’s survey more likely fits the leaders (politicians and billionaires) of the anti-gun movement. The “average” anti-gun person does not have reasoning abilities to perceive guns as a proxy for establishing and maintaining “power” over a segment of society, or a challenge to the “power” of government. The masses live in fear, not of revolution, not of gangbangers, not of MS-13, not of crime in “bad places”. The sign in the photo says it all: gun owners are an existential threat to “good people”. The sign presumes gun owners are all on the edge of going into a spree shooting (in “good places”, where criminals do not congregate). It is the non-criminal gun owner who threatens peace and safety.

  15. avatar No one of consequence says:

    Okay, I’ll bite.

    What about your life makes it more important than my, or anybody’s, hobby? And note, I don’t just mean guns here … you brought hobbies into it, you weren’t specific, so let’s include all of them … model trains, reading books, amateur rocketeers, mountain biking, etc. for consideration. A hobby can be life-affirming, calming, soothing, and occasionally life-saving, depending on the hobby and circumstances.

    Yes, I’m serious. It’s not self-evident from inspection. Let’s have some clear reasons here why anyone not your immediate relative should value your simple existence over something that gives them pleasure, satisfaction, and perhaps could save their life someday?

    In comparison, what do you do for a living? What makes your life so precious to the world in the grand scheme of things? Why should I care? Are you a life-saving surgeon? A scientist working to make a gigajoule/cm^3 battery? A songwriter who can bring inspiration to millions? What?

    1. avatar surlycmd says:

      Freedom of choice > life itself.

      1. avatar Ing says:

        I’d make that an “equal” sign, myself.

  16. avatar Pg2 says:

    Is that the same sign she uses at her pro abortion rallies?

  17. avatar FedUp says:

    Is this the weekend caption contest?
    I’d like to submit my entry:

    My Freedom > Your Ignorant Prejudice

  18. avatar strych9 says:

    This article is, for the most part, overthinking it. IME antis are like young college students: they haven’t thought about “it” at all. Utility, cost etc don’t come into it because they haven’t thought about it AT ALL.

    When I went to college I was a bit older than most of my freshman peers. I got two questions A LOT. The first was “What time is it?”. I always answered this with the snarky “Time for you to buy a watch”. A shithead thing to say? Sure, but the point remained, why didn’t they have a watch? Why did they always bother me since I did have a watch?

    The second item was more apropos to guns. Tons of people asked me WHY I carried a knife 24/7. But guess who used it more than I did? Yup, them. People CONSTANTLY wanted to borrow my knife. I simply rejoined by asking why they DIDN’T carry a knife. This caused a lot of confusion. They had never considered carrying a blade.

    As a few semesters went by my friends all started carrying knives. It became clear from talking to them that they recognized the utility of doing so. But why hadn’t they seen this before? Simple, they had never been away from home. If a box needed opening at home they went to the kitchen or wherever in the house and got the tool to do it. In the dorms however that wasnt an option. They had to take care of themselves and now had reason to do it so suddenly carrying a knife on a pocket clip, something they never considered before, had a real use that was right in their face which forced them to actually think about it. Behavior changes after reality forces thought.

    1. avatar tdiinva says:

      Rule #9: Always carry a knife.

  19. avatar Ralph says:

    Asking about the civilian disarmament mindset assumes that these lemmings use their minds, or at least have them.

    I find them to be appallingly stupid at best, and utterly brainless at worst.

    1. avatar Setnakhte says:

      Not necessarily. Some are entirely capable of reason and their goal is to disarm us for more nefarious purposes which they have put plenty of thought into.

      I would say that this article is more about the casual gun-banner believer, not a mindless sheep or tribalist nor the intentional disarmer-of-Others.

  20. avatar Aaron M. Walker says:

    I don’t own any Firearms at this time…But, absolutely support our 2nd Amendment rights—and our entire US Constitutional–Bill of Rights! I DON’T own any because my state is obviously an “Eastern Bloc Socialist Authoritarian Police-State”, that has restrictive gun control…If I was able to purchase under a simple “instant check ” system without Law Enforcement Bureaucracy and red tape…I’d probably purchase an inexpensive Taurus 627, 7 shot Tracker in .357 magnum…Appears to have very good reviews and performance. It would most utilitarian….But, instead I like the functionality of the second amendment….Since I own a large assortment of collectable cutlery in the form of Tac folders, fixed blades, and some swords …So not completely Disarmed….

    1. avatar Leighton Cavendish says:

      Crossbow…flamethrower…speargun…???

  21. avatar cisco kid says:

    Generally speaking the non-gun owners are better educated and have higher paying professional jobs.

    They are well aware that among the Industrialized Countries the U.S. is awash in blood and violence due to an almost complete lack of any sane gun laws.

    We have more accidental child deaths from guns not being locked up and we have more guns stolen because we lack a mandatory safe storage law.

    We have more people buying guns that are mentally ill and or criminals because we do not vet all gun purchases.

    Educated people are well aware that in many foreign industrialized countries they are far safer to live in while in the U.S. you risk being robbed and killed or hit by stray bullets from gang warfare in broad daylight and in a land that has become so lawless and dangerous it is awash daily in a hail of bullets and blood. Small wonder the majority of people in the U.S. want all guns banned.

    In some cities that are actually small by our own standards the Post Office has quit delivering mail door to door because so many postmen and women have been either murdered or hit by stray bullets in broad daylight and every sane American knows yes we do indeed have a gun problem here in the wild west of America where every street corner has become a battle ground killing more Americans per day than most of the wars that are going on in the Middle East. Yes we are number one in that shameful category.

    We have no National Health Care Plan to cover mental health care and under the new Republican Tax Rape law they are in the process of lowering what little heath care and mental health care that we do have which is minimal thereby guaranteeing there will be more mentally ill people going untreated and buying all the firepower they want to commit more school shootings and mass murders in a country now gone completely mad.

    We spend an outrageous 54 per cent on the Military often spending as much as 11 billion on just on ship while our kids go bankrupt because they cannot afford college and our roads and bridges are falling down and killing people because their is not enough Federal money to repair them. Our old people are starving to death on Social Security and dying because of a lack of affordable health care and life saving drugs available only to the rich and powerful. Yes when you live in Capitalvania you become the new 21 Century Nazi’s and the people pay a heavy social price for it both in a lack of basic social services and in regards to a society not safe to live in anymore. Its payback for all the people we have murdered and continue to murder in our wars of rape, pillage and conquest.

    Yes the Republican Agenda in Capitalvania has been very successful. Divide and Conquer. Get America into a class warfare to take their minds off the fact that most Americans will go bankrupt through lack of health care, be shackled with working minimum wage jobs, make it financially impossible to send their kids to college or even trade school because an ignorant populous is an easily manipulated one and if you manage to make it to old age live in poverty because of almost non-existent retirement plans and Social Security wages so low they are obscene in an Industrialized Country.

    Yes with all this going on today only the mental ill would be crazy enough to say “I am proud to be an American” that is if you could even find one dumb enough to make that statement.

    1. avatar Pg2 says:

      Lol, says the paid astroturfing troll.

    2. avatar Ralph says:

      “the non-gun owners are better educated and have higher paying professional jobs”

      All except you, Crisco.

      1. avatar Bob in IN says:

        That is exactly where I stopped reading.

        1. avatar clst says:

          Most of us quit reading at “cisco kid says”

    3. avatar Waffensammler98 says:

      “in many foreign industrialized countries they are far safer to live in while in the U.S. you risk being robbed and killed”

      And my sister was a 10 minute train ride from being murdered by arabian fanatics in Paris. What the fuck is your point? People like you, who advocate for dependency on the state for everything, are anathema to western freedom and liberty. The fact that you see anyone to the right of Marx and Lenin as “Nazis” is all we need to hear from euro-worshiping trash like yourself.

      1. avatar cisco kid says:

        to Herr Hauptman WaffenNazi

        quote—————————- The fact that you see anyone to the right of Marx and Lenin as “Nazis” is all we need to hear from euro-worshiping trash like yourself.——————–quote

        Your moniker really says it all. Tell me did you remember to dust of the picture of Herr Hitler that hangs over your bedside. Zeik Heil Herr Hauptman but just remember we Socialists won WWII and we will eventually win here in America as well. There is a new Red Dawn Rising.

        1. avatar tdiinva says:

          That’s right, you want to murder Jews for the right reasons, eh? Underneath every Red, there is a Brown waiting to come out.

        2. avatar Waffensammler98 says:

          My moniker simply means “weapon collector” in German and my picture is of the Mauser logo which has been around since 1870. But that’s ok, you keep believing German history started in 1933.

          Socialism is a cancer and responsible for the collapse of western prosperity.

        3. avatar dph says:

          Hey Crisco, you do know that “Waffensammler” just means “Gun Collector” right? That there is nothing Nazi about it?
          Damn, 1 minute too late.

    4. avatar Huntmaster says:

      Hey Troll, “Japanese Society is 98.5% Ethnic Japanese”. – CIA Library, The World Factbook.

    5. avatar Ing says:

      Cisco, a serious question: Do you live in the US? If so, why? If you like the way those other places are run, then the whole world’s your oyster. If not, then why worry about what Americans choose to do in their own country?

      1. avatar cisco kid says:

        to Ing.

        quote—————————Cisco, a serious question: Do you live in the US? If so, why? If you like the way those other places are run, then the whole world’s your oyster. If not, then why worry about what Americans choose to do in their own country?—————–quote

        The mark of an uneducated person is one that refuses to study other cultures and societies because he has a paranoid fear of anyone different than himself. To have the arrogant attitude that America is the best place to live in and has no cultural flaws or problems and that there is no room for improvement and that we cannot learn anything from other Nations who may have already rectified similar problems is the total height of pure stupidity.

        Telling a person that he has no right to live in America because although his house is burning down and he is mad as hell fire alarms are illegal here and not in Europe would be an extreme example and a false one but to make a point sometimes we have to as my college professor said years ago “make a generalization which is always false in order to make a valid point”.

        1. avatar Waffensammler98 says:

          I’ve studied other cultures and history for years. To paraphrase another poster here, any culture that has developed in a place where there is not snow on the ground for at least 4 months out of the year, is one born of entitlement and dependency. People like you despise capitalism and western freedom because it forces you to realize that, like most liberal arts majors, without manufactured social justice issues, political rubes like you would be out of a job. Socialism of any kind, be it from the nazi or communist parties, is a fucking cancer. You can thank capitalism for the computer you type from, car you drive, bicycle you ride, and fridge that preserves your food.

          Also, those “civilized” socialist euro-states you worship would be absolute shitholes if the good old USA weren’t paying their defense budgets year after year.

        2. avatar EWTHeckman says:

          quote—————————Cisco, a serious question: Do you live in the US? If so, why? If you like the way those other places are run, then the whole world’s your oyster. If not, then why worry about what Americans choose to do in their own country?—————–quote

          It’s fascinating how you quoted these questions, then didn’t answer them. At all. Not even one.

          Not surprising coming from an ideologue like you. Just fascinating.

        3. avatar Ing says:

          Reading between the lines, you think this nation has been on the wrong track ever since it was founded, and should be more like the average European country — you were born here, but you hate what you were born into. You stay despite that, because you desperately want to turn this country into something more conducive to your own sensibilities.

          In answer to that, I’ll say this: I don’t think for a second that the US is perfect, but I know it’s the perfect place FOR ME. I’ve studied other nations (and been to a couple), and as nifty as they were to visit, I know that this is where I belong. I couldn’t live anywhere else. For all its flaws, it’s an amazing place unlike any other on Earth. There’s no other nation like it.

          Also, I’ll point out again that most of the world already looks like the country you want the US to be — but there’s only one United States of America. For me, and millions like me, if you succeeded in turning the US into New Europe, we’d have nowhere else to go. So we don’t take kindly to any attempt to remake it in the image of any other polity, however enlightened some may think it.

    6. avatar tdiinva says:

      False, my Nazi by proxy friend. Guns are expensive to own and shoot. Gun owners have higher incomes than average which means they have better jobs which either require more education or are in the skilled trades. Anti-gunners are more likely to be credentialed but uneducated and in lower paying jobs. David Hogg is a perfect example. He can’t get into a second tier university even with today’s degraded standards

      1. avatar cisco kid says:

        to Touched in the Head

        quote———————- Anti-gunners are more likely to be credentialed but uneducated and in lower paying jobs. David Hogg is a perfect example. He can’t get into a second tier university even with today’s degraded standards———————quote————–

        You never cease to make a complete fool of yourself. The Florida school was located in a very upper class section of town and in a very well to do school and even if you had not been familiar with the facts just listening to the eloquent speeches given by Hogg and other students with their complete command of the English language and their almost polished politician responses would have told you that these kids were not from the lower working classes.

        1. avatar Pg2 says:

          Aren’t you the assclown that pretended to be pushing 70? Zero 70 year olds write in the communist zeitgeist as your pedantically scripted posts are written.

        2. avatar tdiinva says:

          So 100% of Parkland students a families are anti-gun? Despite the propaganda, a majority are not. And David Hogg? By his own admission he got rejected from every school to which he applied.

        3. avatar cisco kid says:

          to In Purgatory the 2nd time.

          quote————————-Aren’t you the assclown that pretended to be pushing 70? Zero 70 year olds write in the communist zeitgeist as your pedantically scripted posts are written.———————————quote

          No your the fkg asshole that thinks that if one is not marching lock step to your Nazi ideology then he could not possible be a resident of the U.S. Grown up and get educated ass clown there are 300 plus million people in the U.S. and the majority of them are not fkg Nazi’s like you. You represent everything that is wrong with America and fortunately for us civilized people you are in the minority and terrified of the civilized party getting back in power in November and remember our candidate got 3 million more votes that your Nazi Racist hero Her Drumpf, that should tell you who is more numerous in the country , us not you.

        4. avatar cisco kid says:

          to touched in the head

          quote——————So 100% of Parkland students a families are anti-gun? Despite the propanda, a majority are not. And David Hogg? By his own admission he got rejected from every school to which he applied.—————————-quote

          I never said 100 per cent you did. But now that you did mention it the figure you quoted is today not far off the mark. Maybe it was not before the shooting but to say that a large majority of the community know that something now has to be done and soon would be to live in your own fantasy world of ultra Conservatism that makes one hide ones head in the sand while bullets dripping blood whistle overhead. You can claim its not happening or it will go away or I just don’t give a damn but reality shows bodies being piled higher and higher every week and that damn well sure has an affect on the public panic over the need for more gun control.

          I think though there is one more sure fire tactic that most of the victims parents might even readily agree too. The news media has been too kind to the pro-gun movement. In other words if they had actually showed the graphic pictures of the dead children lying in pools of their own blood with pale contorted griminess on their lifeless dead faces the American public would now not be waiting for Congress to act but be acutely burning down every gun store and gun manufacturing plant in the U.S. I would not agree with this but understand why it was taking place.

        5. avatar tdiinva says:

          Nice try, but you fail again. Not every gun owner is rich and not every anti-gun zealot is poor. The term average means typical, but if you want to be formal then the size of both populations is sufficiently large that both populations are normally distributed in income and education. The mean years of education and income for gun owners is higher than non gun owners. That’s probably way above your mental capability to understand but I always give you the benefit of the doubt.

        6. avatar Pg2 says:

          @cisco the troll- get a job and a life. Trolling gun forums and porn sites from your moms basement is no way to go through life.

        7. avatar Jay in Florida says:

          I do live in the neighborhood and most here don’t blame the gun in any way.
          It was the cowardness of the county cops. Not the local LEOs. They did their jobs. Failure of the FBI to talk to themselves. A big failure of the school itself to report as it should. Knowing the district would loose funding if they did. As for those kids. They are puppets. No one but the Media is listening to them.

      2. avatar tdiinva says:

        The clown is CPUSA. My matrrnal grandfather was a Party member and I know all the tricks. His posts have followed the natural progression of CPUSA propagandist.

        1. avatar cisco kid says:

          to Touched in the Head

          Quote—————————-The clown is CPUSA. My matrrnal grandfather was a Party member and I know all the tricks. His posts have followed the natural progression of CPUSA propagandist.————————————quote

          Ahh ha, so your actually the one who comes from a Communist family. Your a traitor to your own family and there is nothing lower than that.

          By the way thank you for the praise you suddenly heaped on me but I only wish it were true. The facts are I am not a Communist but a Socialist as that is the mark of a truly modern civilized person, you would be aware of this if you had known what has been going on in the world of governments for the last 75 plus years. When will you ignoramuses ever bother to learn the difference. Good God Communism has been for all practical purposes dead since the day Stalin fell over on the floor.

          Its of historical significance to note that the backward Hillbillies in the U.S. are usually about 50 years behind progressive European Countries but eventually we do catch up. Sexual attitudes , clothing fads, social programs, socially just laws, treatment of minorities, gays, and LGBT people , prison reform, have all been gradually copied by the more primitive and very savage society found in the U.S. of Hay.

        2. avatar tdiinva says:

          You need to be more focused. Your posts are becoming unhinged. Of course you are going to deny that you are a CPUSA stooge. That’s what you are supposed to say. You use the word socialist exactly as CPUSA hack would. You need to step up your game.

          Pro tip:. If you want to hide your CP membership go easy on the Nazi business and especially don’t identfy the 1 million recent Muslim immigrants into Germany as a good thing. Even Chancellor Merkel no longer thinks it’s a plus.

        3. avatar Huntmaster says:

          The kids a troll…

    7. avatar Trooper Sam says:

      Wow, an actual communist showed up. I wonder where he got electricity and a working computer from in this horrible dystopia he’s described?

      Oh, because it’s NOT a dystopia, or even like what he described at all.

      Now Venezuela…THAT’S a dystopia. But they have everything you want there, chum!

      Except food. That always seems to be the rub. But hey, Ancapistan is too dangerous for you, head there!

      1. avatar cisco kid says:

        to Storm Trooper Sam of the American Nazi Party

        Quote————————–Wow, an actual communist showed up. I wonder where he got electricity and a working computer from in this horrible dystopia he’s described?

        Oh, because it’s NOT a dystopia, or even like what he described at all.

        Now Venezuela…THAT’S a dystopia. But they have everything you want there, chum!

        Except food. That always seems to be the rub. But hey, Ancapistan is too dangerous for you, head there!—————————quote

        I love these ignorant responses I get from some of you in the Out House gang. You forgot to mention Germany, France, Britain, Spain , Austria, Italy, Norway, Denmark, Finland, shall I go on or is too much information frying the grey matter in your limited cranial capacity.

        1. avatar Huntmaster says:

          Hey Troll,”Japanese Society is 98.5% Ethnic Japanese.” CIA Library The World Factbook.

        2. avatar Cisco kid 2.0 says:

          Whoops old me forgot I was an Australian! Good thing I sobered up for this post.

    8. avatar uncommon_sense says:

      Cisco Kid,

      Are you interested in facts? It appears that you do not:

      They are well aware that among the Industrialized Countries the U.S. is awash in blood and violence due to an almost complete lack of any sane gun laws.

      Multiple sources report that violent criminal gangs are responsible for about 80% of ALL violent crime — including crimes where the criminal attacker used a firearm. Said violent criminal gangs who violated EXISTING rape, robbery, assault, murder, and FIREARM laws will continue to do so no matter how many “sane gun laws” government will pass.

      We have more people buying guns that are mentally ill and or criminals because we do not vet all gun purchases.

      Please tell us how government will convince violent criminal gangs to submit to government vetting before smuggling, stealing, manufacturing, and purchasing firearms.

      … in many foreign industrialized countries they are far safer to live in while in the U.S. you risk being robbed and killed or hit by stray bullets from gang warfare in broad daylight and in a land that has become so lawless and dangerous it is awash daily in a hail of bullets and blood.

      There are virtually no firearm laws in the state of Vermont and yet Vermont’s total violent crime rate (regardless of whether or not the attacker used a firearm) is lower than most countries in the entire world. Thus, an absence of firearm laws and ease to acquire firearms is not a causal factor in violent crime. To say that “easy access to firearms” is a causal factor for violent crime is to ignore the brutal history of mankind before we invented firearms.

      … every sane American knows yes we do indeed have a gun problem here in the wild west of America where every street corner has become a battle ground killing more Americans per day than most of the wars that are going on in the Middle East.

      I need citations from reliable sources before I can accept such a claim. At any rate any “daily war” in the United States is almost exclusively the product of violent criminal gangs in areas that Democrats have governed exclusively for decades. Once again, those violent criminal gangs who already violate existing laws will continue to violate laws. And how come the “enlightened ones” in the upper echelons of society and government who have governed these enclaves for decades have been unable to usher in their utopia?

      We spend an outrageous 54 per cent on the Military often spending as much as 11 billion on just on ship while our kids go bankrupt because they cannot afford college and our roads and bridges are falling down and killing people because their is not enough Federal money to repair them.

      Your enlightened Progressive upper echelons of society who you cherish so dearly are the people who charge ludicrous rates for college. Go tell them the error of their ways. And our federal and state governments would have ample money to maintain our roads and bridges if we would stop giving away 100s of billions of dollars to people in our entitlement programs. Again, your enlightened Progressive upper echelons of society who you cherish so dearly are the people who remove money from society and give it to people in our entitlement programs. Go tell them the error of their ways.

      I could go on with more FACTS that refute your statements. However, I have to actually be PRODUCTIVE and get back to business.

  22. avatar Truman says:

    The primary problem is that it’s a very emotionally charged issue and very few people approach the problem from a strictly rational mind set.

  23. avatar tdiinva says:

    I think Dean is describing the leaders and not the the average anti-gun person on the street. The average anti-gun person on the street is a coward who is incapable of defending himself and does not want someone putting him to shame. He isn’t looking at power relationships. Such a person not only thinks it is unfair that the gun owner is likely to have a better outcome if attacked, but also understands that when a would be attacker retreats from an armed potential victim that he is ultimately shifting the risk to the unarmed. He opposes gun ownership out of the sense that everybody should bear the same risks.

    1. avatar uncommon_sense says:

      tdiinva,

      I think you are both right — you and Mr. Weingarten describe two different types of general gun-grabber and why they want us disarmed.

  24. avatar FlamencoD says:

    Don’t have time to read the article right now, so I’m just commenting on the picture. Our “hobby” is more than a hobby. It’s freedom. Ever heard of Hitler? He disarmed the Jews. Enough said.

    1. avatar cisco kid says:

      to Flame Thrower.

      quote—————-Don’t have time to read the article right now, so I’m just commenting on the picture. Our “hobby” is more than a hobby. It’s freedom. Ever heard of Hitler? He disarmed the Jews. Enough said.——————–quote

      I am a little tired of all the Right Wing Fantasy stories about Hitler disarming everyone. Hitler passed a gun registration but in no way disarmed the people. My own Father told me it was the Americans that disarmed Germany during and after the war and it was the Americans who confiscated guns from the people and smashed them and buried them. Not of course before sending some of the really expensive ones home though and the higher you were in the U.S. Military the more expensive guns you took and the grunts got what was left over if they wanted any.

      And it was also untrue that if the Jews had been armed Hitler would never annihilated them. I think the Warsaw Ghetto uprising proved how futile it is to try and resist an occupying force of well trained storm troopers. Hitler also proved that even when the non-Jews in Poland manufactured weapons at night in toy factories and rose up against the Germans that in end the Germans crushed them proving once again that the American fantasy that as long as the American people have arms they can resist a tyrannical government. Good luck with that fantasy as history has prove it wrong many times over.

      1. avatar GS650G says:

        Don’t know where you got your history, Dad maybe, but you might reconsider your beliefs a bit , kiddo.

      2. avatar Huntmaster says:

        Hey Troll, “Japanese Society is 98.5% Ethnic Japanese” CIA Library, The World Facebook.

  25. avatar Demoncrats says:

    You gun control nuts demand everyone think just like you do. You are totalitarian progressives who think you are so much smarter than everyone else. Think about all the social venues you attend that have security. What is that security based on? Yet you want to take the right of selplf defense away from everyone else. In other words you are totally intolerant. You are nazies (fascist). You do not have the right to dictate to me or anyone else what rights we no longer have. I will keep my 2nd amendment rights and you nazies can go to 4ELL.

    1. avatar cisco kid says:

      to Democrats for a Better World (and thank you for being on our side) sarcasm.

      quote————————You gun control nuts demand everyone think just like you do. You are totalitarian progressives who think you are so much smarter than everyone else. Think about all the social venues you attend that have security. What is that security based on? Yet you want to take the right of selplf defense away from everyone else. In other words you are totally intolerant. You are nazies (fascist). You do not have the right to dictate to me or anyone else what rights we no longer have. I will keep my 2nd amendment rights and you nazies can go to 4ELL——————–quote

      Wake up Jethro, the Supreme Court has other ideas and since 2017 its been sanctioning every gun ban and gun confiscation law that has been passed and even the Republicans have seen the handwriting on the wall as they rats are now jumping ship faster than real rats jumping off a ship on fire. Public opinion rules and history has proven again and again the Constitution is only good for wiping your ass with it.

      1. avatar Huntmaster says:

        Hey Troll, “Japanese Society is 98.5% Ethnic Japanese.” CIA Library, The World Factbook.

      2. avatar Eil2016 says:

        Oh Megan “The Kid”…. you are indeed a bitter man or should I say toxic hippie. An uneducated “socialist” who just got by middle school. A misinformed punk who never quite made it in the real world. No investment portfolio for you, eh? What’s sad is you actually think you’re educated and knowledgeable about what’s going on in the world. You repeat ad nauseum the commentary from CNN, The Atlantic, Time magazine and the other socialist publications of which you are NOT a part of. In your drug-induced mind you are a famous writer for these publications and news organizations. A literal legend in your own twisted mind. Better wake up Megan. DUMBAMA is not in the white house anymore. Your days are numbered. Bwahahahaha….

  26. avatar GS650G says:

    The fucking sign should read
    My life > your issues.

  27. avatar Chip in Florida says:

    So you think your life is greater than my hobby.

    Ok, Fine.

    What are you doing to protect your life? What are you doing to protect the lives of those you are responsible for?

    Because when the question comes back around to what am i doing I am going to answer that I own and carry firearms. The best possible tool for the worst possible scenario.

  28. avatar ozzallos says:

    Lets extend that mindset then– your life is more important than your money; we use firearms to secure banks. Your life is more important than a politicians; we can agree on that, right? No need for secret service. Your life is obviously more important than your childs; guns are a-okay for money and politicans, but not in safe guarding your kids school.

    Your gun confiscation apologist will then sputter about civilian ownership, at which point you remind them about bombs, such as the ones attempted in the last high profile shooting, or the rampant knife attacks abroad in lieu of guns.

    NONE OF THIS WILL MATTER, however. Facts will not sway these people. Our focus must be on education of those who will listen; specifically the next generation. You can attempt to chang the protester mindset, but likely they will need to be defeated elsewhere, namely reduced to the an obsure minority that they seek to portray us as.

    1. avatar ozzallos says:

      And wait– Did somebody actually trot out japan as an ideal model for gun control? LOL, their history is perhaps the most perfect reason why ownership should exist. Literally for centuries, an upper class was not only armed, but had the right to slay any lower caste citizen of their country at will for the barest of reasons. My weapon needs tested? Oh, here’s a convenient peasant to MURDER in order to do so. This aspect of their social behavior so scarred their society that almost everything in their language begins with an apology, lest offense be taken and blood shed.

      Japan is in no uncertain terms a polite society because they were an armed society. Listening to somebody try and use Japan as the premier example of gun control is the most laughable thing out there. It tells you the person doing so is woefully unaware of their history.

  29. avatar Joe R. says:

    “Understanding the Civilian Disarmament Mindset”

    This great Country was founded on fucking killing them.

    Bottom line.

  30. avatar Joe R. says:

    Your life ain’t worth half a wet tick-turd. Don’t even compare it with any hobbies of mine, much less any rights.

  31. avatar Alan says:

    The placard bearing woman overestimates, grossly overestimates her worth and importance. I don’t know, nor do I care who she is, yet she claims that I would go far out of my way to do her physical harm. The conceit of some is truly amazing.

  32. avatar Mark G. says:

    Freedom > Your Body

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