Daily Kos: An Open Letter to Second Amendment Enthusiasts

From David Loftus at dailykos.com:

Has it occurred to you that you might have committed a fatal strategic error by throwing your lot behind the National Rifle Association?

Could you consider the possibility that over the past 40 years, the NRA chose a strategy that guaranteed it will ultimately lose the war to set domestic firearms policy?

Let’s not get into any of the specific arguments you’ve undoubtedly seen and defended in recent months and years: the nature and scope of the Second Amendment, the notion that guns protect one’s home, how many lives are supposedly saved by armed citizens versus lives lost, that guns will ultimately defend you against some sort of government tyranny.

Put those aside.

I want you to take a brief look at the big picture.

Consider the possibility that the NRA’s never-give-an-inch approach to U.S. firearms regulation might ultimately have set up you and other gun owners for failure in getting to have a say on the design of U.S. gun policy.

In order to understand this, you’ll have to try to view the situation from the perspective of the majority of your fellow citizens who are not so enthusiastic about gun ownership and national firearms policy as it’s been driven by the NRA in recent decades.

A basic, unassailable fact is that more than 30,000 American men, women, and children die every year from gunshot wounds. Or at least that was the case for many years past; the number may be climbing. It rose to 36,252 in 2015, and 38,658 in 2016, according to The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

If those numbers sound high to you, that’s because most public debates over guns, especially if the NRA and activist gun owners present the stats, immediately cut suicides from the total, because those typically make up two-thirds all gun deaths. This has the virtue, from the gun advocate’s perspective, of making firearms fatalities mostly a matter of criminal, mentally ill, or terrorist shooters: It’s a “bad guy with a gun” issue. . . . .

Read the rest here. Poke holes in his argument below. As if I had to say that.

comments

  1. avatar Jim B says:

    So nice of that leftist rag to protect us. I can only read about two sentences of their propaganda before I get ill.

    1. avatar nativeson says:

      Loftus is today’s equivalent of Tokyo Rose.

      1. avatar Ed says:

        “Has it occurred to you that you might have committed a fatal strategic error by throwing your lot behind the National RifleAssociation?”

        No, has it occurred to this moron HE might have committed a fatal strategic error by throwing his lot behind Communisim?

        “Consider the possibility that the NRA’s never-give-an-inch approach to U.S. firearms regulation…”

        Whats that then? Haven’t seen a Never-give-a-inch approach since Mr. Heston passed. The FUDDs at the NRA now give FEET at a time, he should LOVE them now.

        1. avatar Indiana Tom says:

          “Has it occurred to you that you might have committed a fatal strategic error by throwing your lot behind the National Rifle Association?” Yes.
          Why? The FUDDs at the NRA now give FEET at a time.

        2. avatar Green Mtn. Boy says:

          “the NRA’s never-give-an-inch approach to U.S. firearms regulation”

          Perhaps the kooks over at the kos failed to do the research and do not understand that Negotiating Rights Away have been capitulating,since 1934, to further their goal of civilian disarmament.

    2. avatar Ed Schrade says:

      Another attempt at divide and conquer by the socialists.

  2. avatar Ralph says:

    Dear David Loftus at dailykos.com:

    Thanks for your concern. I know that you have the best interests of gun owners at heart. Now, GFY. And I mean that sincerely.

    Regards,

    Ralph

  3. avatar John Boch says:

    Quote: Consider the possibility that the NRA’s never-give-an-inch approach to U.S. firearms regulation might ultimately have set up you and other gun owners for failure in getting to have a say on the design of U.S. gun policy.

    Translation: In other words, surrender the guns we want and maybe you can keep some of the rest of your guns.

    My answer: Go self-procreate, Daily Kos. That’s some pretty big talk from the radicals in the Democrat Party, a bankrupt party at about 80-year lows. The best defense is a good offense. Whenever you Dems are feeling froggy, start confiscation and see what happens.

    1. avatar Lew Tripp says:

      “If you come for mine, you better bring yours.”

    2. avatar Rick says:

      When did the NRA have a never give an inch philosophy, 1907?

      1. avatar Rick the Bear says:

        Rick,

        “…the NRA’s never-give-an-inch approach to U.S. firearms regulation…”

        That’s the first thing that caught me eye!

      2. avatar How_Terrible says:

        I almost choked on the water I was drinking when I saw that in the article.

  4. avatar Illinois_Minion says:

    Consider that you may not be able to accept the fact that people need to be held responsible for thier actions, not objects, and you won’t have to attack, belittle, talk down to or lie about inconvient truths.
    Just because you have a website doesn’t make you holier than us who beleive other than you wish.

    1. avatar Gov. William J Le Petomane says:

      Well in at least 2/3 of the cases the shooter is held accountable since they were suicides.

      1. avatar Big Bill says:

        That’s not really true.
        We are constantly told that if guns were’s as easily available as they are (easier to get than a book, I’ve heard), people wouldn’t commit suicide.
        I would think Japan would cause them to re-think that, but evidently not.

  5. avatar Setnakhte says:

    What an ignorant fool. Since when did the NRA ever have a “never give an inch” position in the first place?

    1. avatar Rick says:

      Yeah…I didn’t read down far enough, but exactly. +100

  6. avatar RevolverBoomBoom says:

    “Consider the possibility that the NRA’s never-give-an-inch approach to U.S. firearms regulation might ultimately have set up you and other gun owners for failure ”

    The NRA give inches, feet & miles with a grin all the time. Let’s have the NRA try the never-give-an-inch approach and we can see if any of the rest of letter holds up.

    1. avatar Lew Tripp says:

      You are a liar. I’m The NRA.

      1. avatar RogueVal says:

        So its you we have to blame for the Brady bill, AWB, 86 ban, 68 ban…

        Look everybody its Lew’s fault.

      2. avatar Sgt Bill says:

        So many anti_nra people on the TTAG. . Despite any flaws the NRA has fought hard for gun owners including the 98% who aren’t members. Maybe if all the complainers got involved with the NRA, nra_ila and friends of NRA we would see more results. Or you can continue to be the lone wolf bitch and whiner.

        1. avatar Craig in IA says:

          I’ve been posting similar suggestions. Problem is for the cheap pot shooters here, they’d have to fork over $30 (well, could get an Associate Membership for $10 with no mag) to join. The only way to affect any change to an organization as large as NRA would be to be a member. You could go to the Dallas meetings first weekend in May and try to state your case in the forum. I’ll be there.

          I taught in various factions of public education for 40 years, during which time I was a member of the NEA and local and state affiliations. I alwasy tried to become a building rep as well. In that capacity, I had a forum totry to steer the organization away from the commie/leftist direction whenever I could and know I had an impact on many in the district. The money for dues was piddly and I always more tha covered it with donations and time to those I believe in but NEA didn’t. If you aren’t even in the vehicle there’s no way you have a chance at steering it or maybe hitting the brakes. Of course, you can sit off on the sidelines and bitch, many very bitter folks are more than content to do that.

          Oh, and BTW- want to make some comments concerning the original post? Send them to the dailykos, not here.

        2. avatar Ed says:

          I am a FORMER member and instructor and the NRA lost me forever in the says after Sandy Hook when they first started waivering and caving on OUR gun rights ASSUMING that they can speak for me, when they most definatly CANNOT! The constant giving away of my right peice by peice, agreeing with “universal” background checks and bump stock banning without even getting something in return is shameful and does not represent me in the least.
          Now, why for the love of god would I want to get further involved with such an organization? You’re there, and they are your friends….YOU FIX IT. Im certaintly not giving them a plugged nickel.

        3. avatar neiowa says:

          So ED what are you doing NOW.

        4. avatar Ed says:

          @neiowa
          Spending my money on ammo and reloading supplies instead of giving it to the NRA so they can give more of my rights away. Anyone who can’t see that they are obviously HIGHLY compromised from the inside is a true sheep. If you people treated congress with the same kid gloves you treat the NRA with nothing would ever get done! Oh, wait……..yep, nevermind.

    2. avatar Helms Deep says:

      N.R.A. asked for more regulations on bump stocks ! The latest PROOF that they are not on our side and are probably compromised from the inside.

      NRA will not speak for me , or millions of others. And POTUS is a chump for opening the door also with assinine comments about stripping 18 to 21 year old ADULTS of their Rights and the equally stupid ….” Due Process Later ” shit.

      F – them both.

      1. avatar Marty says:

        18-20 year olds, not 21. Don’t make it worse than it already is.

      2. avatar Ed says:

        POTUS is a fuckin MORON and I voted for his sorry pumkin colored ass! You’d think a fuckin Billionaire would know just a bit more on how the country runs, especially if you run for the highest office in the land. Due process and the second amendment are actually things, someone should tell his sorry ass!

  7. 34,000 Japanese kill themselves each year by poison , no guns

    1. avatar RogueVal says:

      45k Americans commit suicide every year, less than half by guns. Those are numbers, but what are you saying?

      1. That is only by poison , you can double that for all suicides , what I am saying is if you got rid of all guns it would not stop suicides

        1. avatar Rick says:

          Japan is weird, crush porn, sexless teens (not LGBTQRSTUV, they just don’t want to have sex), and suicide is like a cool trendy thing.

        2. avatar Marty says:

          Yup, and just today it was reported that in March, there were more murders committed in London by knife there was in NY by firearm. April is expected to show the same results. As a knife collector, I’d hate the anti’s to come out and add my knifes as well as my guns.

        3. avatar El Bearsidente says:

          Except suicide is not a cool, trendy thing. Saying it is only makes you racist and having no clue about the country and its culture.

          Suicide in Japan is acceptable, because it has no stigma of leading to damnation in the afterlife (hint: the country was never Christian.) It is, however, still seen as tragedy.

          As for the rest? You can find that in the US and Europe, too.

          Bottom line, lack of guns does not prevent suicide. Japan and India show it.

  8. avatar Geoff PR says:

    Their comment section is *open*.

    Who’s up for a blistering retort?

    Serge? Chip? Bueller? Bueller?

    1. avatar Isaac says:

      The comment section doesn’t seem to be accepting comments now. I, at least, can’t find a way to comment.

      1. avatar David Thompson says:

        y’all gotta log in or sign up. not worth it in my book

    2. avatar ACP_arms says:

      Bloving jumped on it.

      1. avatar Bloving says:

        Oh, HELL yes I did.
        Commenting here doesn’t move the needle one bit… however entertaining it may be.
        But as long as there’s a link I can follow and a site i can comment on without pay a fee – I’ll cheerfully take the fight directly to the enemy so the undecideds can see the bigots make asses of themselves.
        🤠

  9. avatar NotFakeNews says:

    Now that Farago and the other writers are gone, cut and paste an article, then have the readership provide the bulk of the content. Nice. This website shall soon be done.

  10. avatar Rickster A-15 says:

    Yeah I’m I’ll too. Keep your bullshit in the cowfields where it belongs. Don’t spread your horseshit here. Not interested. Not in you or the crowd of your anti American cronies touting their foolish sights. We as true Americans have to stand up and demand that our constitutional rights be upheld. Law abiding citizens aren’t the problem , nor are the arms we have a right to bear. This insanity has got to stop. I do not tell anyone what they can or can not do or own. I certainly will not allow someone to dictate the same to me. You don’t like guns ? Don’t own one !!

  11. avatar SigLifeSailor says:

    And per the FBI, Defensive guns uses occur 300,00 to 1 MILLION times a year. You cannot convince me that your 30,000 is greater than my 1 Million. If you’re willing to let that million die because guns, then you’re a monster, and should be treated as such.

  12. avatar Specialist38 says:

    The way I see it, the NRA needs to get in line with me.

    There are more non-NRA gun owners than NRA members.

    And we vote. I may join NRA and GOA just to help boost numbers.

    But the NRA needs their cage rattled as the have become complacent with easy enemies to focus their attention.

    They need to focus on proactive goals instead of taking the easy path of fighting against regulations proposed by leftists.

    We the voters need to remove those who abandoned the constituion in recent days.

    Liberty requires eternal vigilance.

    1. avatar Craig in IA says:

      “But the NRA needs their cage rattled as the have become complacent with easy enemies to focus their attention.”

      No, GUN OWNERS need to have their cages rattled- and every time they do they come running and begging to NRA for cover, not GOA or the NAGRs. Wonder why that is? People are smarter than quite a few around here will give them credit.

  13. avatar Gunn says:

    Since 1934 we’ve given and given and given, compromised and comprised and compromised, and the anti-gunners shafted us and shafted us and shafted us until the Shall-Issue Revolution and gun-rights absolutism. We have been winning the war, losing some battles, but winning more.

    Loftus’ arrogant, ignorant, asinine, ad-hominem spiel gives a false dichotomy: put your rights on the altar now, or we’ll just take them later, and take more of them to punish you for resisting enlightenment.

    Don’t listen, don’t cave, don’t give in. We have the numbers and we have the passion and if worst comes to worst, we have the guns.

    Do not go gentle into that good night, and do not forget that these people want you broke and then dead, your kids raped and brainwashed… and they think it’s funny.

    Unify. Network. Train. Act.

  14. avatar former water walker says:

    So who should I throw my lot with? Bernie Sanders?!? The NRA is sadly the top gun rights organization. And they need to do a helluva’ lot better😡

    1. avatar RevolverBoomBoom says:

      Also with a competent state level group if you have one. WVCDL, for example, does the unsexy chipping away at legislation and doesn’t just turn up for the big money fundraisers and headline grabbing things like constitutional carry. Important as the anti-2A crowd seem more and more comfortable attacking at the state level.

      A level where the NRA no longer seems comfortable or interested with. Keep the NRA’s numbers up as a “big stick” to wave at legislators, just realize they aren’t willing right now or even able in some states to hit any with it. The local organisations may with theirs.

  15. avatar Chip in Florida says:

    Hmmm…..

    “…Let’s not get into any of the specific arguments you’ve undoubtedly seen and defended in recent months and years:”

    Even though you are going to base your entire article off of exactly that. OK, lets keep going.

    “… the nature and scope of the Second Amendment, ”

    Do the kids these day still say ‘settled law?’ Because multiple Supreme Court Cases have settled that argument and the Second Amendment is an individual right that is not limited to just the home.

    “…the notion that guns protect one’s home,”

    Well you can’t prove otherwise so lets just accept that they do.

    “… how many lives are supposedly saved by armed citizens versus lives lost, ”

    Then President Obama asked the CDC to study exactly that and they reported that defensive gun uses were at least as likely as offensive uses so simple math would should that as many lives are saved as are taken so that makes it a wash overall. Unless you are some truly evil p.o.s. who wants even more people to die because you think it wrong that all those people defended themselves (or others).

    “…that guns will ultimately defend you against some sort of government tyranny.”

    It’s worked pretty well for the last two centuries.

  16. avatar Nanashi says:

    “Has it occurred to you that you might have committed a fatal strategic error by throwing your lot behind the National Rifle Association?”

    I haven’t committed that error, but a lot of gun owners have and I consider the NRA the most successful anti-gun organization in the country. Bloomberg can’t claim to have done remotely as much to tip the scale of justice in favor of tyranny as Wayne LaPierre alone has by banning the most common firearms in the world from civilian ownership and creating a registry of gun owners.

    “Could you consider the possibility that over the past 40 years, the NRA chose a strategy that guaranteed it will ultimately lose the war to set domestic firearms policy?”

    Only 40? Try 85+.

    “Consider the possibility that the NRA’s never-give-an-inch approach to U.S. firearms regulation might ultimately have set up you and other gun owners for failure in getting to have a say on the design of U.S. gun policy.”

    Oh, here I thought the left realized they could kill the NRA overnight by hammering on their hypocrisy and how, as they don’t believe the Constitution is absolute, they are baseless for saying semi-auto is protected when full auto is. Silly me.

  17. avatar Rick Bunn says:

    I don’t give a rat’s a$$ for bumpstocks, but I do care for being allowed to,tune my firearms. The NRA is cautious, but works. Between the occupy movement and other socialist inspired anti-democracy anti-capitalist groups, the need for the people to defend our contitutional form of government is real.

    1. avatar Marty says:

      Rick, totally agree. I could care less about bump stocks, but If I want one sometime down the road, I obviously want them available.

  18. avatar Justin Case says:

    OK, so this is the “Conversation” you left wing socialists say you want? A condescending, lame attempt at an explanation of how we’re all wrong and you are right? Along with your considered opinion that the NRA set us all up for a fall so we should immediately, in your opinion, not support THEM anymore?

    First, your “conversation” is all monolog and mostly bullshit. Typical.
    Second, you are wrong about the “majority” of Americans being socialist left – we are not.
    Third, as stated above WE are the NRA – made up of millions of Americans. It is NOT some radical lobbying group made up of paid politicians & social justice lawyers… y’know, like all the anti-gun, anti-American groups which are financed by Soros & Bloomberg & their ilk.
    WE are the people the Constitution & the Bill of Rights are talking about as “We The People”. Not socialists, not communists nor left wing “antifa” assholes. (Not mentioned even once in either of the above Documents.)

    Thank you so much for your uneducated, ill-conceived opinion. Now go back to your room in your mother’s basement, have a nice day and um, go fuck yourself.
    Yes, really.

  19. avatar 300BlackoutFan says:

    I didn’t realize that my natural and civil right to self defense from tyranny (whether state funded or otherwise criminal), enshrined in the 2nd amendment, was up for a debate.

    However, since your numbers include ‘accidental’ deaths by firearm, I can compare to car deaths, which outpaces firearms deaths and results in billions more financial cost to taxpayers and also blame AAA.

  20. avatar Mike says:

    Hey, just a reminder, you only have 81 days left to let the ATF know how feel about the proposed Bumpstock rules.

    Please go comment and comment often – https://www.regulations.gov/document?D=ATF-2018-0002-0001

  21. avatar Siorus says:

    “(…) the NRA’s never-give-an-inch approach to U.S. firearms regulation(…)”

    Waitwaitwaitwait.

    Never give an inch?

    The NRA that supported the NFA, the FFA, the GCA, FOPA and reexamination of legislation regarding/further regulation of bump stocks?

    That never-give-an-inch NRA?

    Not that it matters, ultimately; “shall not be infringed” is pretty flipping self-explanatory, and it’s not really subject to what either the NRA or the progressive left wants.

  22. avatar Rusty Chains says:

    You are never going to find a friend of the 2nd Amendment or the NRA at Daily KOS. They are a major encampment for the enemies of freedom!

  23. avatar davida says:

    Try pounding that smoke up someoneelses ass its not flying here.

  24. avatar anarchyst says:

    The NRA failed when it allowed the National Firearms Act of 1934 to stand without offering opposition, the 1968 Gun Control Act, the “instant check” system, the “no new machine gun for civilians” ban in 1986, the so-called “assault weapons ban in 1991, and other infringements on the Second Amendment. Let’s face it. What better way to increase membership than to “allow” infringements to be enacted and then push for a new membership drive. Yes, the NRA has done good, but its spirit of “compromise” will only lead to one thing…confiscation.
    If the NRA is truly the premier “gun rights” organization, it must reject ALL compromise…

    1. avatar Marty says:

      Totally agree with all comments on the NRA. I’ve had my own fight with them going back about 30 years ago. However I certainly can’t blame them for all those laws being passed. No, they didn’t fight them like they should have, but every one of them would have passed with or without their support. There have been many, many laws they did fight against the anti crowd, and many they supported with the pro gun folks. Are they perfect? Of course not, but please tell me what organization is?

      1. avatar Craig in IA says:

        “No, they didn’t fight them like they should have, but every one of them would have passed with or without their support.”

        Not true. Exactly how many resources do you folks think NRA has??? YOU- GUN OWNERS didn’t fight these “battles” like you should’ve- you let 4% of the gun owner members of NRA pay the bill for the other cheap, lazy, scared, ignorant, disengaged (could go on here for quite a while) 96% of gun owners who just sat on the sidelines and still do, then start blaming NRA when there’s some sort of setback.

        GOA and the NAGRs can’t even begin to boast about any accomplishments so they keep spouting off about how they never compromise, never give in, all that BS. Of course they don’t compromise- they’ve never done anything exceot take you money. But well-intending people keep srnding them money and dissing those who actually are in the fight on many fronts, just like the minorities who keep supporting the left who’ve taken advantage of them for decades. Take a hard look at all these organizations and at what you personally have done to keep your precious right. The overall support from the vast majority of gun owners is an embarrassment, we’re just lucky that so far it hasn’t been a total disaster.

  25. avatar El Bearsidente says:

    Funny how they do not count suicides and good shootings. They only count the full number of all deaths, with no differentiation. Differentiation would destroy their agenda, so they lie to keep it going.

    Also, 38,000 is not high compared to all annual deaths. This is still below 2%. And unlawful killings are still below 0.5%. So, no, it’s not high, it’s not scary, it’s barely statistically relevant.

  26. avatar CarlosT says:

    The totals have increased for two reasons: the Ferguson effect, and the unraveling of support structures that leave older white men increasingly isolated. People like the Daily Kos are actively driving forces in exacerbating both those factors. Do they support effective policing? Do they support treating the problems of older white men, who they despise, seriously?

    We all know the answer to these is an emphatic no.

    1. avatar Mark N. says:

      The numbers will invariably increase because the population does. The percentages, though, remain fairly constant.

  27. avatar David Thompson says:

    What “common sense” gun restriction could stop suicides?

    Universal background checks? The folks contemplating suicide with a gun will pass them.

    “Safe storage?” The folks who kill themselves with guns are mostly older men. They’ll have the combination to the safe.

    Waiting periods? Someone contemplating killing themselves won’t be stopped because they have to wait a few days.

    “Assault weapon” ban? When was the last time someone killed themselves with an “assault weapon.” Well, never because they don’t exist. (It is, after all, a made up term.) So when was the last time someone shot themselves with a modern sporting rifle?

    1. avatar MarkPA says:

      Read between the lines, fellow PotG (and especially Fudds). The Antis don’t really mean “common sense” gun controls; what they mean is ALL our guns.

      Much of the so-called “common sense” discussion is on magazine capacity. So, let’s take this to its logical conclusion. A magazine capacity of 2 plus one in the chamber? Magazine capacity of 1 plus one in the chamber? No magazine, only 1 in the chamber?

      Is 1 in the chamber sufficient for deer hunting, duck hunting and target practice? Yes, arguably, it is. Is 1 in the chamber sufficient for suicide? Yes, it is. So, 20,000 of the 30,000 gun deaths are still going to appear in the statistics.

      Is 1 in the chamber sufficient for a 1-on-1 homicide? Yes, arguably it is. So, most of the 10,000 homicides are still going to appear in the statistics.

      Is 1 in the chamber sufficient for a fatal accident?

      So, if we are going to make a meaningful reduction in the number of deaths-by-gunshot we have to remove the single-shot types of firearm types.

      The “common sense” line-of-reasoning leads no where else but the elimination of civilian gun ownership; ALL types of civilian guns.

      Eliminating magazines and semi-autos or other repeater-type actions could, at most, reduce the number of 1-on-many homicides. Admittedly, some killers-of-others are bad shots; some can’t reload quickly. These killers will have to improve their marksmanship or gun-dexterity to keep their share of the figures up. Or, they will switch to shotguns. In any case, reducing their share of the statistics won’t save the single-shot civilian gun.

    2. What “common sense” gun restriction could stop suicides?

      Laws criminalizing assisted suicide.

  28. avatar Pawl from Florida says:

    If these anti’s want to take guns away so bad. Why don’t they start by marching into Chicago with David Hogg in the lead . They can then proceed to disarm the gang bangers themselves ?
    They are so brave when they have plenty of people around to protect them .

    1. avatar Mike in OK says:

      I would totally watch that as a pay-per-view event.

  29. avatar CalGunsMD says:

    The NRA does not have a “never-give-an-inch approach to U.S. firearms regulation”. You’re thinking of NAGR or GOA.
    The concept of ” firearms regulation” is unconstitutional.

    1. avatar Craig in IA says:

      Complete and utter nonsense.

      That’s what the NAGRs and GOA always say- show me what they’ve actually done.

      Oh, that’s right, they send their trollers out to TTAG and other “safe sites”.

      I’ll believe this BS when I see one sign in an anti gun rally that says Ban GOA, or NAGR is Nazis, etc. etc.

      1. avatar CalGunsMD says:

        Having a particular position on policy is not synonymous with successful achievement of goals. You need only look no further than the issue of the current bills regarding National carry reciprocity and Fix NICS bills moving through Congress. Nagr opposes them, while the NRA supports them. I am not slamming the NRA or endorsing the other two groups. I am simply stating the fact that in their ideological positions NAGR and g o a are far more Hardline.

        1. avatar Craig in IA says:

          K- but where do their “hardline” positions ever turn any issues into gains, or at best, maintenance? Good legislation? Never, so far.

          If “a successful acheivement of goals” is not important- in fact, about the only primary objective, WTH are you looking for??? (It’s your money, even if it is my (our) right…

          NRA itself has never claimed to be a “never give an inch” organization. It’s been important for NRA to be able to always stay in the game. I’ve posted it around here before- if NRA had refused to compromise AT THE TIME when the semi-auto ban was certainly going to pass regardless of pressure from citizens due to the make up and leadership of the House, Senate and president, the bill we put up with for 10 years would’ve never sun-setted 10 years later and we’d have eventually lost all semiauto rifles, followed by handguns, shotguns, and eventually everything. It wouldn’t have mattered whether or not a bunch of ragtag guys in camo BDUs with SKSs and Moisin Nagants tried to storm the Capital in defiance- which would’ve probably had the reverse effect of convincing a lot of people who were undecided about guns that YES- we probably really ought to get rid of these things, when they really mean the people carrying them.

          Why people around here want to try to derail the only organization that has a snowball’s chance in Hell of saving this right is yet a mystery.

      2. avatar Ed says:

        @Craig in IA…Whats the NRA paying you? No one can be THAT stupid. The left is in control of the NRA from the inside…its the only excuse for the complete LACK of defense of our damn right! They have ONE job as far as the general public is concerened, protecting gun rights, period! Looking at their track record I’d say they’ve done a rather piss-poor job. Disagree? Name the last WIN! (Que crickets)

        1. avatar Craig in IA says:

          Well, in IA last year we got a basic “Stand Your Ground, suppressors (for those that want to jump through the hoops), a clarification that allows adults to teach or let their kids under 14 shoot handguns casually, all of which were uphill bloody battles.

          This congressional session we passed the first round on an amendment to the IA Constitution to add the US 2nd Amendment wording (AFTER Parkland), which will have to be passed by next years congress and then go to the voters where it will overwhelmingly be given the green light.

          NRA pays me nothing, in fact every year it costs me a lot of time and money to go between Des Moines and Cedar Rapids among other gun show cities to recruit members at the shows, as well as some events in N MN. Been doing that (totally volunteer work) for about 30 years now.

          I’ve been able to get to know personally 2 sitting NRA Presidents, several past presidents and more than a few board members. I paid full tag (not the cheap upgrades) many years back to go from Life (I think it was $250 then) to Benefactor which I believe was around $2400 or so, am a Whittington Center Founders Club and Trailblazer ($3400 and change), regularly give to ILA, PVF and other NRA funds. I often attend and give testimony at hearings at the Statehouse and make many phone calls to my legislators and others in Iowa and in DC, often on behalf or a bunch of ungrateful, ignorant and arrogant slobs who wouldn’t go across the street to thank their elected officials for doing a good job once in a while let alone learn how to confront them in a civilized manner when they’d want to try to sway their mind and vote. I have a bit of extra clout with legislators right now since along with a number of other jobs, I was a public educator for 40 years and they listen when a teacher will stand before them and set them straight that banning guns won’t make a damn bit of difference in “school shootings”. I’ve not been attacked by any of the MSM for doing so, of course I don’t stand up and start some wild-eyed blathering and threatening, either.

          I could go on, but why? There’ll be some whack-os here who will cry that a lot of what I do is in Iowa, to which I’d reply fix your own leaky, stinking house first. Iowa isn’t perfect but we have more than a few on many issues that know how to work politics and politicians. (Hint- all this threatening on TTAG that can’t be backed up with action isn’t working.

          It’s pretty hard for NRA itself to fight for rights in states that dont/can’t even fix crap within their own borders and their problems continue to spill out to screw up the rest of us. A lot of you boys are “Legends In Your Own Mind”.) It’s absolutely amazing how much real influence 5 million NRA members have been able to wield- many elected officials have been sent packing as reward for their non-Constitutional votes and NRA is the ONLY target of the MSM and the left when it comes to firearms law. GOA and NAGR, among other little yappers? Bloomberg wishes they were the players. THAT alone ought to sink in on some of your addled noggins but you just don’t get it.

          So, to review, in answer to your question- I am paid nothing. It costs, and has costed me plenty in time and money to keep trying to maintain the 2nd Amendment for non-players and ignoramus gun owners like you, most of which have never made a phone call or spent a dime on their own behalf.

        2. avatar Ed says:

          @Craig in IA…its the NATIONAL Rifle Assc. Not the IA Rife assc. Most all of us dont give a rats ass what the NRA got you to do for them in IA. As far as fix my own state…I live in Maine. Constitutional carry, open or concealed so not much to fix there, just waiting for that Brady bill repeal to go through and that NFA repeal….can’t do THAT at the state level, or we would have go that done too! You know how much help we had from the NRA here? I sure didnt see any other than NRA members doing on their own. That org is compromised, period…why keep funding them? Wake up! Did you happen to ask the last to Presidents you got oh so friendly with why they fold and cave and keep giving our rights AWAY instead of doing away with unconstitutional policy?!? I bet you didn’t.

        3. avatar Craig in IA says:

          Read again.

          “There’ll be some whack-os here who will cry that a lot of what I do is in Iowa, to which I’d reply fix your own leaky, stinking house first. Iowa isn’t perfect but we have more than a few on many issues that know how to work politics and politicians. (Hint- all this threatening on TTAG that can’t be backed up with action isn’t working.

          It’s pretty hard for NRA itself to fight for rights in states that dont/can’t even fix crap within their own borders and their problems continue to spill out to screw up the rest of us. A lot of you boys are “Legends In Your Own Mind”.) It’s absolutely amazing how much real influence 5 million NRA members have been able to wield- many elected officials have been sent packing as reward for their non-Constitutional votes and NRA is the ONLY target of the MSM and the left when it comes to firearms law. GOA and NAGR, among other little yappers? Bloomberg wishes they were the players. THAT alone ought to sink in on some of your addled noggins but you just don’t get it.”

          As far as repealing ANYTHING there will have to be a true groundswell from individual states first. It’ll take a fair number of engaged, principalled and politically intelligent (why NAGR and GOA will never do it) folks who know how to move the hearts and minds of the people outside of the gun fraternity to the cause. The politicians don’t matter much if they’re being bombarded with letters, calls and emails from their constituents. First and foremost, they want to keep their jobs. Actual principles for many are WAY down the list.

          I challenge you- get your boys together and go out to some shopping center in Maine with clipboards and see how many of the people you poll would support the repeal of NFA. Explain what you’re talking about and see how many will even answer your quetions. It doesn’t mean a damn thing what the Constitution says- it matters “what is” at this point in time. Before you challenge that statement, read it again and do some thinking- what will the court system do to me, or the SWAT team if I decide to try to force my “Constituional principles” on 21st Century America? It’ll be like the old driving PSAs in the 1970s- you’ll be right- dead right. You want to be a martyr? Go for it! I know I can do much more good here, and alive.

          For anyone to think NRA, with 5.6 million members, of whom perhaps 15-20% are actually active and engaged all of the time, can march some sort of army across the nation and take over statehouses and the US Capital are lower than idiots, especially when nearly all of those out there bitching hate the NRA, wouldn’t join if their lives and liberties depended on it (and to a sense, they do) and won’t do anything to cooperate with those who can actually do some good. The bonds between NRA and US and many state and local legislators is not only strong and deeply rooted, it is protected as well. No use forcing votes for show or condemning people who will be in your corner. Stalk your game and wait until you’re in position. If the wind changes during your stalk (Parkland, for example), you may have to back up, find a different draw and come from a different direction, but the goal is bagging the quarry, not a miss.

          And as far as NRA Presidents, or even and especially Wayne, you have absolutely no idea how hard it is for these people to face what they do every day to defend the rights and liberties of all Americans, even freaks who are fighting against them from the same side in their stupid circular firing squad. Do you think Pete Brownell, who heads up what is the world’s foremost distributor of firearms-related accessories and other goodies really needs to put himself out there? He’s got a huge business to run in an era where huge businesses go belly up all the time. Any idea how much money Wayne LaPierre and Chris Cox have to raise every day to support NRA’s programs? That $30 membership doesn’t go for anything other than your magazine and membership support. I repeat, all this gets done, even for a raft of ungrateful, ignorant and pompous asses who would lose everything in one stroke if it were left to them.

  30. avatar CZJay says:

    Koreans are really good at killing themselves. They don’t use guns. They generally jump off something very high or use carbon dioxide.

    Korean society is very sad because they mix the Korean culture with American culture; they don’t mix them very well. So they have the bad parts of Korean/Asian culture and the bad parts of American culture. The requirement to be perfect is unrelenting. They have to be physically very attractive, very smart, very honorable, very respectful, very polite, very wealthy, very talented, very skilled, very healthy, educated at the best schools, pleases everyone over themselves, married and have kids, etc. The sooner they do all of that the better.

  31. avatar macgearailt says:

    “The rights of citizens are not contingent on the reasonable exercise of those rights by all citizens.” Is there really anything to add ? I my view , there really is no room for our rights to be considered from an emotional perspective . They are and if challenged ,we’ll fight for them with words and any other means that are required .

  32. avatar Chris Morton says:

    I imagine that Admiral Halsey would have taken advice offered by Admiral Yamamoto with a grain of salt.

    I think I’m going to take the same approach here…

    1. avatar Craig in IA says:

      K- but Ozawa duped Halsey pretty well at Leyte Gulf, could’ve cost the entire invasion had Kurita not blinked, and his Typhoon judgment wasn’t so hot, either.

  33. avatar Vic Nighthorse says:

    Why yes, David, we can add your name to the list. Thanks for volunteering it;-)

  34. avatar Quasimofo says:

    Concern troll is concerned…

    Somehow, regardless of the NRA and its “never-give-an-inch approach” (LOL no), I’m fairly certain that the objectives and willingness to compromise among Dave and his ilk would remain unchanged. From what I’ve seen over the past few weeks, if you disagree with their demagoguery, appeals to emotion, and proposed “solutions” then you’re part of the problem.

  35. avatar TStew says:

    Daily Kos? Who here gives a shit what they have to say? We’ve all heard it before. Why would I bother responding to those who would just as soon see me buried alive than to hear my arguments to the contrary?

  36. avatar Gutshot says:

    Don’t care what Bolshevik swine have to say.

  37. avatar Kyle in Upstate NY says:

    The problem with people like him is that what he thinks is a “Never-Give-An-Inch” approach is actually more like never give a couple of meters.

    Ban on bump stocks? It would be giving a couple of feet and getting the momentum going for more restrictions. Even for people who otherwise could be okay with a bump stock ban in principle, the problem is that then it represents a symbolic victory for the anti’s who then just demand more.

    CDC research on guns? Giving a meter, as the CDC showed corruption before, and we now see just how prone to ideological corruption the government is with the FBI (Trump), NSA (Clapper saying no spying), Secret Service (female agent refusing to protect Trump along with other lapses), IRS (Tea Party), etc…

    Ban people on Terrorist Watch Lists from buying guns? Giving another meter, as there are multiple such lists, they are very arbitrary, and Congressmen and Senators who have been wrongly put on the lists have found it incredibly difficult to get taken off.

    Universal background checks? Too prone to allowing confiscation. Agreeing to those is giving a couple meters.

    Magazine capacity limitations? Agreeing to those is giving a kilometer.

    Assault weapons ban? Agreeing to that is giving a couple kilometers.

  38. avatar MyName says:

    Has it occurred to you Mr. Leftist, I mean Loftus, that it does not matter one bit what the NRA does or does not do – You still can’t have my guns!

    In fact, that’s kinda the point of the 2A in the first place – the government can’t make policy that takes away the people’s guns – partially because the people have the guns. How many times must this be explained to you and your ilk?

  39. avatar Blurb says:

    Ok. ‘Setting aside’ our (founding fathers backed) contention that they are for fighting tyranny . . . But, we can’t really set that aside, can we? It has been off-repeated that one in three Americans would need to die to install Communism. That’s >100 million. If we divide that by 30000, we get over 3000. How many here think we can go nearly 3000 more years without needing them?

  40. avatar Ben There says:

    You can’t fix stupid.

  41. avatar DaveDetroit says:

    These people need to CHECK THEIR MALE WHITE PRIVILEGE. Apparently inner city minorities and women are too stupid and ignorant to make their own choices about keeping safe in high crime areas. Apparently its OK for rich white people to travel around with armed guards who carry full semi-auto handguns and short barreled rifles, but its NOT OK for women and minorities. According to Progressives, minorities and women need a rich white male living in a low crime area to make those choices for them. I noticed that these same rich white guys are also against the LGBTQ community exercising their rights to self-defense.

    Kinda funny how they want the privilege of armed guards while denying women and minorities from having access to self defense. I guess its OK with them if women and minorities are beaten or raped. You don’t see them doing anything about crime in Chicago do you? You think that rich white guy is ever going to be affected by a multiple felony illegal immigrant? No way. He’s got protection. He just doesn’t want minorities and women to have the same protection. Clearly he’s PRIVILEGED!

  42. avatar MarkPA says:

    The Daily Kos article depends upon the 30,000 per year gun-suicide figure. Inasmuch as 2/3’rds of American gun deaths are suicides, this is a good place to begin the discussion; better than homicides; far better than accidents.

    Is the 30,000 figure too high to tolerate in a nation with a population of 330 million? I hold no opinion on this important question. It’s better than if it were 60,000; worse than if it were 3,000. Whatever it is, or might become in the future, we PotG have OUR fair SHARE of the responsibility to find ways to reduce it. We have reduced the figures for gun accidents (also our responsibility) perhaps we could do so for gun-suicides.

    If we PotG neglect to take-up the lead position in addressing reduction of gun-suicides then we can expect to continue to experience political pressure undermining the 2A. If the gun-suicide figure grows in proportion to gun-ownership (for self-defense) then as we win votes we will build the death-by-gun figures coincidently.

    (I don’t naively imagine that if gun-suicides were 3,000 or 3 per year then the gun-suicide issue would recede proportionately in the public consciousness. Nevertheless, gun-suicides are the BIG NUMBER in gun deaths and so, HERE is where we must focus.)

    We ought to demand that CDC and other researchers reveal the demographic data on gun suicides (and also suicides by other means). Who are these people killing themselves by gun? Elderly widower farmers? Teen daughters of mothers who recently took-up carrying? Unless we know who these suicides are we won’t have a clue where to focus our efforts.

    Experts on suicide need to give us guidance as to what to look for in a person contemplating suicide. What we can do for them to help them through such periods.

    We must also figure out how to frame the issue; or, the Antis will frame it for us. Half of successful suicides are by gun; the other half are by other means. There remains a much higher number of determined suicides that proved UNsuccessful – by the grace of God. What is the most constructive frame?

    Arguably, that correct frame is the aggregate number of sufferers driven to attempt suicide, whether or not successful. Tragically, it is our own community – the PotG – who have the original point-&-click tool ideally suited to the user’s objective. So, the Antis would like to draw the frame around the gun.

    A competitive frame COULD be for the PotG to become politically-conscious and encourage our members to eschew the gun as their preferred means. We might advise our fellows: ‘Commit suicide if you will, but do so by any means OTHER than your gun!’ If the problem is framed by guns; or, by gun-owners, then so we could solve the problem. (This example serves to illustrate the importance of discriminating the correct frame from incorrect frames.)

    We PotG should hold that the correct frame ought to be all individuals driven – for whatever reason – to contemplate suicide. How could members of this class be identified? How could its members be served by society, their neighbors, friends, coworkers and families?

    If we had answers to these questions then those of us who are PotG could better apply them to our friends and families. Non-gun-owners could do so as well, e.g., by safe-storage of drugs, poisons, ropes, plastic bags etc. when family members seem to be in distress.

  43. avatar JBS says:

    I belong to the NRA, as well as GOA, NAGR, ISRA, and Guns Save Lives, because I despise the gun controllers as bigots out to oppress gun owners and institute authoritarian government.

  44. avatar jono says:

    Just decided to join the GOA because they compromise less then the NRA.

  45. avatar JD says:

    The way I see it the nation’s firearms policy was set in the 1700’s. Shall not be Infringed means the same now as then. The Government doesn’t have the right to set policy, we do.

  46. avatar Mike in OK says:

    Laughed my ass off at “the NRA’s never give an inch approach.” Dipshit should educate himself before he presumes to enlighten others.

  47. avatar Mad Max says:

    “never-give-an-inch approach”? The NRA? Doesn’t he mean GOA?

    (Belong to, and support both, along with SAF, CPRC, Heritage, and local 2A groups).

    I think his Communist/Leftist associates are setting us up for a civil war.

    Their tactics will be to foment insurrection and internal war so they can use the UN, under the auspices of a newly formed world government, to take over the United States.

    We need to carefully identify the enemies of the Constitution and seperete them from the fools that don’t understand what they are supporting and following. Destroy the enemies and educate the fools.

  48. avatar Leighton Cavendish says:

    over 600,000 lives are ended/prevented each year by abortions…yet they are still legal…right?
    estimated 400,000 by medical mistakes…
    couple hundred thousand from heart disease…
    couple hundred thousand by cancer…
    and 65% of gun deaths are suicides…some of the rest are justified shootings…
    many/most of the rest involve gangs/drugs/repeat criminals…
    and the VAST majority of gun deaths are by HANDGUNS…so why are people not going after THOSE?
    criminals will ALWAYS find a way to get what they want- proved that during prohibition of alcohol AND drugs…
    yes…have laws in place for consequences…but we already have those
    maybe enforce the laws we have…have strict/harsh sentences…do not allow early release or probation…see how that pans out first
    then…or simultaneously…go after guns in criminal hands…see how THAT works…
    you can’t legislate morality…tried it with gay sex…see how that worked out?
    personal responsibility…enforce current laws/regulations…prosecute gun crimes…harsh penalties…no early release/probation

  49. avatar W says:

    1. Let’s “put aside” the BS analysis of XX die a year from gunshot wounds. America’s homicide rate is not bad. Nor is America’s suicide rate. In fact, our homicide rate (4.88/100k) is low in the Americas (16.3/100k). America has nothing to be ashamed of. We’re a standout in a tough area.

    2. “Consider the possibility that the NRA’s never-give-an-inch approach to U.S. firearms regulation”
    Gotta throw the BS flag on that one. The NRA has given inches many times, some were behind the scenes, others were in plain sight. Think President Trump and the NRA spoke before he banned bump stocks? You’d be stupid not to. How do you think that went? Odds are something like, DT: I have to do this you know. NRA: Well, we’re not in favor but we won’t drop our support of you if you do.

    3. Any deep thinkers over there at Kos, or just a bunch of sophomores?

  50. avatar Bunny says:

    We have been giving them inches since 1934. No thanks. It has got us nothing nor are you willing to actually “negotiate”. Not once have you offered up anything we are asking for. The fact of the matter is, it’s all a ploy for civilian disarmament.

  51. avatar Anonymous says:

    If those numbers sound high to you, that’s because most public debates over guns, especially if the NRA and activist gun owners present the stats, immediately cut suicides from the total, because those typically make up two-thirds all gun deaths. This has the virtue, from the gun advocate’s perspective, of making firearms fatalities mostly a matter of criminal, mentally ill, or terrorist shooters: It’s a “bad guy with a gun” issue. . . . .

    Robin Williams hung himself with his own waist belt. Should we have a category called “waist belt violence?” Obviously no. Because that would be retarded and silly – Kind of like having a category called “gun violence.”

    The problem with gun grabbers is their ridculous pursuit of reducing these matters to categorical systems they themselves created (such as gun violence) while paying no concern about violence itself or the root causes.

    So yeah idiots. Suicides should be taken out. You can commit suicide with easily available items and without a gun.

  52. avatar AFGus says:

    I couldn’t get past the part where the Kos moron says “Let’s take a brief look at the big picture”…..I still haven’t stopped LMAO over that little gem. As if anyone at Daily Kos has ever been able to see the big picture on any subject of relevance. That Marxist rag and it’s writers (notice I didn’t call them journalists) wouldn’t be able to see the big picture if it were broadcast on a Jumbo Tron. Daily Kos is where Liberals/Progressives who haven’t managed to break 50 on an IQ test go to get their daily dose of propaganda. Spending any significant amount of time trying to reason with the unreasonable is…..well…..an unreasonable waste of time.

  53. avatar Mark N. says:

    My Second Amendment rights are as much subject to a majority vote as are your First Amendment rights of free speech and freedom of religion. Which means not at all.

    1. avatar barnbwt says:

      These guys don’t believe you have that freedom either, bub; I’d find a way to support your argument without mentioning the Constitution.

  54. avatar barnbwt says:

    The NRA “never gives an inch?”

    What a moron. Actually, the NRA & like-minded gunowners are the morons for thinking antis would ever recognize all the inches they keep giving.

    As always, the liberal enemy is projecting again (*they* are the ones relentlessly pursuing an objective, totally oblivious of the consequences)

  55. avatar Monkey Grip says:

    Dear Loftus,

    When trying change the thinking of a neutural or hostile audience do not use a tone that denotes you are superior or smarter than your audience, do not use statistics and do not tell them that their point of view of the issue at hand is wrong.

    Rather use humor, excitement and comraderie.

    You should have learned this in college.

  56. avatar Monkey Grip says:

    Dear Loftus,

    When trying to change the thinking of a neutural or hostile audience do not use a tone that denotes you are superior or smarter than your audience, do not use statistics and do not tell them that their point of view of the issue at hand is wrong.

    Rather use humor, excitement and comraderie.

    You should have learned this in college.

  57. avatar drunkEODguy says:

    “Did it ever occur to you that the ACLU’s never-give-an-inch mentality on first amendment rights might me that you’re excluded from determining the policy of what speech, gathering, and expression rights are acceptable in America?”

    I never understand how the other 9 amendments in the BOR are unquestioned, unassailable bastions of American freedom, but one is should be curtailed or outright stricken from history.

    1. avatar barnbwt says:

      I don’t understand why so many RKBA folks think the other amendments are treated as sacrosanct by liberals;

      “Hate speech” –silencing of opposition
      “Hate groups” –blocking free exercise
      “First Amendment Zones/Safe Spaces” –limiting the right to protest

      You can find examples where they disapprove of practically every other civil liberty as well (since freedom inseparably means the freedom to do sucky stuff as well as good, and liberals believe they can block the former through laws without degrading the latter). So-called conservatives often hold the same kinds of views on the exercise of certain freedoms, but only because they are afflicted by the same statist thinking that laws are an acceptable way to force others’ actions toward conclusions they themselves desire (i.e. tyranny)

  58. avatar Kyle says:

    lol

    daily kos

    roflmao

  59. avatar million says:

    the low compliance rates will be met by laws calling for confiscations and further prohibitions. these will actually be enforced in poorer urban areas. rural sheriffs will not enforce these laws.

    DailyKos and other prohibitionists will be responsible for increased minority incarceration rates and deaths.

    1. To the leadership, that is the goal, not a side effect.

  60. avatar Debra Apple says:

    I am saying is if you got rid of all guns it would not stop suicides.

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