No One’s Trained Enough to Carry in a Church IMI Systems Quote of the Day

Westminster Presbyterian Church Pastor Ludwig Weaver (courtesy wpc-online.org)

“A lot of bad things can happen with guns. If someone did come into the sanctuary and this person had a weapon, all the studies show even trained police officers in crisis situations have difficulty hitting their targets.” – Westminster Presbyterian Church Pastor Ludwig Weaver quoted in Armed worship: Anderson lawmaker wants to allow guns at church, some pastors skeptical [via greenvilleonline.com]

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comments

  1. avatar ‘liljoe says:

    Have faith pastor…. have faith

    1. avatar BGryphon says:

      When police enter a building where a shooting is ongoing, not only are they immediate targets, they do not know which person is the shooter or where they are in a room. The overload of informational confusion and the microseconds allowed to make an Informed shot (and possible lack of practice) degrades accuracy and effectiveness.

      In contrast, one of many potential victims in the room when a shooting starts will likely face a person who has divided focus, and who will most likely not even notice a covert draw amongst a group of running and screaming targets.

      Time here is the factor. I would rather have a CCW in the congregation than a swat team en route.

      1. avatar Freeheel says:

        And the armed church member will know exactly who is the bad guy from the get go.

        1. avatar Bacon Lover says:

          It’s going to be the person shooting up the place!

      2. avatar California Richard says:

        Damn, BGTYPHON, that has to be the best and most concise answer I’ve heard for this question…. I’m gonna steal this for my arguments with people out here, especially the “I would rather have a CCW in the congregation than a swat team en route.”

      3. avatar Ransom says:

        BGryphon, right on man.

      4. avatar mark s says:

        Well now , I was going to comment and then I read yours , so all I got to say is …………. dittos .

        1. avatar anarchyst says:

          Those of us who have military experience have an “edge” over most non-military and police officers. Keeping one’s wits (cool) under fire is an advantage that most people (non-veterans) do not possess, even among CPL holders.
          Not a criticism of non-ex-military, police officers or CPL holders, just fact…”courage under fire” CAN be learned by anyone who takes the effort.

  2. avatar TrappedInCommiefornia says:

    Well, I’m certainly not the most trained individual with a gun, and I’m sure there are millions of people who are better shots than I. But when I go to church in a few hours I will be carrying. My odds of shooting a mass murderer may not be great, but those odds are infinitely better than relying on the goodness of an evil man’s heart.

  3. avatar Leighton Cavendish says:

    so…keep everyone unarmed and sitting ducks then…
    or are you going to install metal detectors to make sure nobody is carrying…and guarantee people will be safe (impossible, of course)
    don’t ask, don’t tell
    some in the congregation carry concealed…bet on it…or take it on faith

    1. avatar MyName says:

      Sure, obvious logic is obvious: Since people, even trained police, have trouble hitting their targets in crisis situations, make sure everyone but the bad guys are unarmed so that no one gets hurt – oh, wait, that may not work.

  4. avatar Bob Watson says:

    ” all the studies show even trained police officers in crisis situations have difficulty hitting their targets.” –

    Is this Holy Man willfully ignorant or is he a filthy liar?

    1. avatar Silent Citizen says:

      Maybe he’s noticed how many times cops shoot naked men with empty hands. Such as Mark Hatten in Las Vegas and Aaron Goff in Los Angeles. Those weren’t the naked men. Those are the criminals, I mean cops, I mean criminals who shot naked men. And now make more than $150,000 a year.

    2. avatar Uncle Boris says:

      I’ll take door #2 Monty!

    3. avatar neiowa says:

      The preacher is correct. Within his delusional faith in the “trained police officers” myth.

      Sad how low the neutered Presbyterian Church has fallen. As went Scotland I suppose. Still not as worthless as the Methodist I supposed. Not a pair between them though.

    4. avatar ozzallos says:

      Actually, he might be right on that regard. How many articles have we seen on TTAGs alone where the officer blows an entire mag and misses the perp? NYC police? That officer who shot 40 rounds into his own door?

      1. avatar Icabod says:

        How about a comparison between police time/rounds on the range compared to most shooter? Odds are police don’t get a lot of range time.

      2. avatar Jonathan - Houston says:

        Police may well go through an entire magazine. Why is that? It’s because they have immunity and aren’t going to be held accountable for what they hit. So fire away. It’s because they have only a smattering of training, which means they must resort to a high volume of shots if they’re to have any chance of a hit. These factors drive down their hit-to-shot statistics. Unlike concealed carriers.

        Are these factors applicable to concealed carriers? No. Concealed carriers tend to practice more with their firearms than do police. Many participate in shooting sports, more so than police. Concealed carriers are responsible for every round that leaves their firearm. In any setting, that’s important. In a church setting, they also will personally know the others in the room. Both factors will impress upon the concealed carrier the need to be very careful in their shooting. Unlike the police.

        1. avatar anarchyst says:

          The term “first responder” is a misnomer, especially when applied to police or other “official” personnel.
          The CPL holder on site is the first responder and needs to be the one (with the ability) to react to a potentially deadly, life-threatening situation.
          The key is to protect your own life FIRST.
          Then, if able to, “remove the threat” from the equation.
          Problems arise when police officers “get in the way” and possibly murder the true “first responder” as the only thing they see is “a person with a firearm”, and react according to their “training” which, in most cases, DOES NOT differentiate between a true”first responder” (CPL holder) and the threat.
          There are no easy answers to such a scenario…

    5. avatar FedUp says:

      Accurate assessment of the statistical track record of The Only Ones.
      Incredibly ignorant in his (very common) presumption that The Only Ones are superior to everybody else.

  5. avatar ATFAgentBob says:

    Most CCW holders are better trained than the police in the use of their weapon… But don’t let me stop your narrative please continue blathering on about something you know nothing about. I’ll even make you a deal pastor, you stick to talking about God and salvation and I’ll stick to what I know.

    This is exactly why I don’t do organized religion of any kind, there’s always one of these amongst them. Some tree hugger that totally ignores the Old Testament, Psalms, and Revelation while preaching only the sunshine and rainbows parts of the New Testament.

    Sorry there boss but God and Jesus both said they’re cool with me carrying to defend myself against evil and they never said to disarm before I enter the church so I won’t.

    Before anyone else starts quoting the peace and love crap in The Bible, yes peace, faith, hope, and love are all great things our Creator endowed to us and yes we should strive to maintain peace in our lives, faith in our God,

    Hope that things will get better, and love for all people but that doesn’t mean I cannot and should not prepare to violently defend my family, my life, or my country should the need arise.

    “Until there is no enemy but peace Amen.”- Rifleman’s Creed

    “Praise be to the Lord my Rock, who trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle” Psalm 144:1

    1. avatar GCran says:

      Wish there was a “like’ button but AMEN, brother. And there are plenty of churches that encourage it so come be a part of a protected fellowship in your community.

      1. avatar ATFAgentBob says:

        well my pastor retired, the guy that took over is a complete moonbat. I go to church for religion not politics and soon as the new pastor started a rant about Trump being the great evil I left. Around here there aren’t many churches that aren’t Pentecostal and I have my issues the people going to them, it’s really not a bad religion it’s just the worshippers around here are worse than the stereotypical Baptists of old. There’s one Methodist church but they don’t seem too big on letting a white guy join them, let alone an armed white guy. So I spend my Sunday evenings reading a little from the Bible and writing my own interpretation of what’s being said and how it applies to my life except during deer season, then I’m out in the stand of a morning praying for a big buck. I’ve found both have brought me a much closer relationship with God than going to church ever did and I don’t mind that I have a gun on so I won’t be asked to leave the service if I happen to print a little bit.

        1. avatar Tom in Oregon says:

          Nothing like a good day in the woods to make one realize God does exist.

        2. avatar FedUp says:

          soon as the new pastor started a rant about Trump being the great evil I left.

          Immediately, as in while he was still talking?
          Good.

        3. avatar ATFAgentBob says:

          oh don’t get me wrong I’d have left if they launched into a tirade about Hilary too. There’s a time and place for political discussion (screaming at each other) and church, family functions, or dates are not it! Same for religious discussions, Don’t do those at political debates, dates, or at work. Time and place y’all time and place. We really need to start pushing back against the politicization of everything in our daily lives it’s getting to where you can’t even look at a car without someone spouting off about how Trump or Hilary is invested in that car company and therefore buying that car makes you a supporter of that politician. No motherf*&%er I just like Challenger Demons. Oh Hilary owns stock in Oreo? So what I’m still gonna drown the damn thing in my glass of milk, least now I can imagine it’s her.

    2. avatar DaveL says:

      I seriously doubt that most CCW holders are better trained than the police… but most people actually carrying daily are. That’s because they benefit strongly from self-selection. If you have a CCW license, you choose for yourself every day whether you’ll carry, and where. The ones who carry religiously tend to be “gun guys”. More casual holders might carry only where they perceive the danger to be particularly high, if at all. The police don’t get to do that. The “gun guys” carry, so do the law wonks, the political rank-climbers, and the high school bully who needed a job.

      The civilian CCW holder also tends to have more options for avoiding or waiting out a situation. And yes, accountability (or the lack thereof) certainly plays a role.

      The end result, however, remains the same: legally armed civilians perform quite well in actual practice, as compared to “trained police.” The scenarios imagined by hand-wringing disarmament lackeys are pure fantasy

      1. avatar anarchyst says:

        CPL holders are trained “differently” than police and are required to exercise much greater “fire discipline” control as they do not have qualified immunity, 72 hours in which to get their story straight, a union lawyer and cop-friendly prosecutor at their disposal.

  6. avatar Wiregrass says:

    And that’s why you won’t know till it is needed pastor.

  7. avatar Missouri_Mule says:

    “the perfect is the enemy of the good” Voltaire

  8. avatar Vic Nighthorse says:

    Are ministers supposed to be intelligent or just comforting cheerleaders?

    1. avatar neiowa says:

      Depends on the church (local group), denomination, and religion.

      1. avatar Protestant Rambler says:

        Speaking as something of an insider, the PCUSA has been stomping on its own brains for years. Look to other presbyterian churches for greater reasoning, and more faithful theology.

  9. avatar H says:

    Many churches didn’t discuss it. They just implemented it.

    1. avatar Protestant Rambler says:

      Some of the more prudent pastors are discretely organizing meetings with CCWs in their churches and coming up with security plans. Most churches already have greeters; it’s a small step from there to have those guys (usually guys) carry, and stand at all exits throughout active church time to smile, shake hands, and watch. For bigger churches, give them earpieces.

      For those church-goers who don’t approve of guns in the church.. well, they don’t have to know.

  10. avatar Jay in Florida says:

    Somebody should inform this man of the clothe. Cops are about the worst folks to take a shot of any uniformed gun carriers. You want a more trained likely to have more practice shooting then a LEO.
    Have a CCW carrier in the crowd. Most of us shoot more in a month then a LEO shoots in years.
    Me Im sure I shoot more in a week then a cop does in a few years.

    1. avatar JK says:

      +1. Saved me the need to write my own comment. Thanks. The articles this guy read should be interpreted as most cops have very little training and can’t shoot.

  11. avatar anonymoose says:

    You can’t trust Presbyterians to not be godless libcucks anymore. He probably marries gay couples in his church too.

    1. avatar Protestant Rambler says:

      Not all presbyterian denominations are the same. You’re probably thinking of PCUSA.

  12. avatar ATFAgentBob says:

    I got a lovely little sermon for this potato pastor.

    People often say there’s no reason for guns to exist, they say guns are an affront unto the Lord and that they are Satan’s own invention. Well, I’m here with a much different message. You see God works in mysterious ways; after all he put a Pascagoula, Mississippi church back on the straight and narrow with a half crazed squirrel. He wanted us to be happy, He gave us beer. He wanted us to multiply, He gave us woman. He wanted us to live a long life bringing glory to His name, He gave us medicine. He wanted us fed, He gave us the beasts of the land, sea, and air. He wanted us to have the means to defend all the things He gave us, so He gave us the gun. The gun praised and reviled, used by good and evil alike, has done more to protect and defend God’s creations than anything else he has given man. The gun has founded nations, toppled evil dictators, and defended the Holy Land. It has saved pastor and parish alike. It has been used for evil, but it has been good men with a gun in their hands that have kept this nation free. It has been good men with a gun in their hands that have protected your churches from evil. If not for the gun this nation would not exist. The gun, much like the spear, has no conscience, it cannot decide for itself whether or not it is committing a sin or defending its user. Pastor, you say we have a gun problem. I say we have a people problem. Today we have people turning away from God in record numbers, we have people killing each other in the street over a colored T shirt, and we have pastors like you preaching sunshine and rainbows; fiddling while Rome burns to the ground around your church.
    Not long ago I had a preacher that would carry every Sunday. He preached from the pulpit of God with a Glock in his waistband holster. Now at the time I questioned why one would carry in the House of God, and he had said that he carried to protect his flock. Looking now at what has happened in churches around this country (South Carolina, Tennessee, Texas) I’ve come to realize my old pastor wasn’t crazy or paranoid. He saw what we all now see, he saw evil gripping the hearts of men and driving them to desecrate a Holy site for reasons known only to them. I don’t go to the church to worship anymore. I spend my Sundays in quiet reflection worshipping the Lord in my own way. I avoid church now because of Pastors like you, the ones that never learned they are not there to control their congregation but rather to help them find a close personal relationship with God. Your personal opinions on anything do not matter, what matters is helping your congregation bring glory to God and teaching them the good word of our Lord. Whether anyone in this equation of Pastor + congregation + church = Glory to God has a gun is irrelevant to the task you are to perform. Your task is to educate not dictate. God gave us free will and the means to defend our ability to exercise it, that means you leave it the hell alone and learn to deal with a congregation that may do things you do not agree with. They may smoke, they may drink, they may carry a gun to Sunday service, they may hunt after services or before, and they may do things in the bedroom you specifically preach against. These are things that are between them and God and you have no right, responsibility, or power to stop them or speak against them. You are an educator first, you tell them of God’s love for them and the promise he has made for them in the afterlife you save souls but above all you do not control them! Until you and all the other pastors, preachers, and cardinals learn this lesson and learn it well I will continue to avoid organized religions. I refuse to throw my money into a collection plate supporting a pastor that would leave me defenseless and let the lions feast upon my flesh in a house of the Lord rather than defend myself with the tools God gave me.

    1. avatar neiowa says:

      Sam Colt and John Browning being two of the most prominent apostles.

      1. avatar ATFAgentBob says:

        They were sainted along with Gaston Glock back in ’96. Hollow be thy points and straight be thy barrel. 45 be thy caliber or 9 mm be thy cartridge Rejoice in the works of the saints at the altar of ballistics. Saint Colt, Saint Browning, and Saint Glock gave us their greatest thoughts so that we may live to better praise our Lord. Praise the Lord pass the ammunition!

        1. avatar tdiinva says:

          Gaston Glock is a tool of the devil. Godly guns are made of wood and steel not infernal plastic.

    2. avatar What About Bob says:

      I like your style, Bob……

  13. avatar mike oregon says:

    This is not a argument that I can respect. It’s a slight variation of the standard “Firearms make killing to easy, Using a firearm for self defense is way to difficult.” nonsense.

  14. avatar Kenneth says:

    ” bad things can happen with guns.”
    It would appear that this person thinks that bad things DON’T happen when evil men sneak around with; knives, axes, baseball bats, hammers, pointy sticks, etc. So we can immediately surmise that whatever planet this man lives on(in his imagination, OFC), its not here on earth.
    Second, as some of the worst weapon handlers in the world, “even trained police officers” are a poor choice to hold up as an example of exemplary behavior. Overall, I’d like to ask this person what color the sky is in his world, since its obviously not blue….
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHPPYNYOy-I
    “Give my kid a shot!” “Thank God Poot was here…”

  15. avatar Robert says:

    … but even in a “crisis” situation, someone shooting back at the bad guy is way better than letting him kill everyone in the sanctuary.

  16. avatar Gov. William J Le Petomane says:

    If a gunman comes into your church with the intent of killing everybody, what difference does it make if you miss a couple times taking him out? Even if you accidentally kill someone he would have been dead in a few seconds anyway.

    1. avatar uncommon_sense says:

      The November, 2017 Sutherland Springs, Texas church attacker wounded or killed almost everyone in the entire church building. That event makes it abundantly clear that a church has nothing to lose and everything to gain even with minimally trained/skilled armed parishioners. Quite literally, how could the outcome have been any worse if an armed parishioner (with minimal training/skills) had engaged the attacker within 5 seconds?

    2. avatar Jay in Florida says:

      Like in the news lately.
      Id say the large majority of people in general think this way.
      But heaven forbid for us to say it publicly.
      What a bunch of hypocritical ShitHoles a large minority of this country has become.

  17. avatar Kapeltam says:

    Psalm 82:4 Rescue the weak and needy; Deliver them out of the hand of the wicked. 

    How can we follow this without access to the most efficient tools at our disposal? I will continue to carry at church. My church’s leaders decided its better to have guns in our church, than to have them used against the people.

    1. avatar TrappedInCommiefornia says:

      I doubt my church leadership would have a problem with me carrying but I never asked and wouldn’t care what their answer was anyways since I’m not carrying for them. Concealed means concealed.

      1. avatar Big E says:

        Good for you.

        What they don’t know can’t hurt- but could help.

  18. avatar Stu in az says:

    Studies also show that mass shooters have no problem hitting their targets when there’s no ballistic resistance. Think before you preach.

  19. avatar Geoff says:

    “A lot of bad things can happen with guns. If someone did come into the sanctuary and this person had a weapon, all the studies show even trained police officers in crisis situations have difficulty hitting their targets.”
    Only in New York City with a hit rate of about 18%.
    http://nation.time.com/2013/09/16/ready-fire-aim-the-science-behind-police-shooting-bystanders/

  20. avatar anarchyst says:

    Police officers are notoriously poor shots, exercise poor impulse control, and can get away with murder due to statutory “protections” that (only) they possess. You see, police officers operate under NO “rules of engagement”, unlike the military and ordinary citizens. A shooting that would get a military person or ordinary citizen charged, tried, found guilty, and incarcerated quite often is treated as “operator error” or use of the famous “I feared for my life” excuse, when committed by a police officer.
    After a questionable police officer shoot, the individual officers are not handcuffed and arrested and are given 72 hours in which to “get their story straight”, unlike the treatment that an ordinary citizen receives for an identical shoot.
    Police-friendly prosecutors and “rubber-stamp” grand juries routinely “gloss over” and excuse behavior by police officers, that would land an ordinary citizen in serious trouble.
    This “double standard” needs to be scrapped. |Equal justice under law” is supposed to apply to everyone–even police officers.

  21. avatar Gordon in MO says:

    This “pastor” is another example of the success the left has in infiltrating all institutions of influence in America. Either that or he is a brain washed useful fool which boils down to the same thing.

    In either case everything he says is suspect. Does he preach the gospel from the Bible or the gospel as translated through the communist manifesto?

  22. avatar TyrannyOfEvilMen says:

    Yes, deadly force situations are difficult. Therefore, we should ensure that if one occurs that no one encountering it can respond quickly to stop the threat.

    That’s some typical liberal “logic” right there.

  23. avatar A O says:

    Cars are dangerous, a lot of bad things can happen when traveling in a vehicle, especially cars intentionally traveling slowly on a highway. Even the best trained drivers have crashes.

    Maybe we should pass a law making it illegal for funeral processions. Everyone drives normally, no violating any traffic laws to get a dead person to a place where they will still be dead.

    Oh, wait, that doesn’t work for ya, pastor?

  24. avatar DUG says:

    all the studies show even trained police officers in crisis situations have difficulty hitting their targets.” –

    “Studies” also show that a psycho killer unopposed, has no problem killing as many people as he can until he runs out of bullets, kills himself, or is confronted by armed “good guys”

  25. avatar former water walker says:

    I’m sitting in the very large Hammond,IN 1st Baptist church surrounded by armed men-including moi. Some cops,some church member security(yeah they got earpieces)and CC folk. Maybe even the head pastor(he’s talked about being armed). Most Presbyterian groups have gone the leftard apostate/heritic route. Completely pansy-azzed…as long as evil exists we are mandated to fight it.

  26. avatar AZwild says:

    Yep, just proved him wrong 2 hours ago. No issues from me carrying

  27. avatar Darkman says:

    This pastor has only the best of intentions. Unfortunately the Road to Hell is Paved with Good Intentions. Any belief that God or Jesus will protect you is fool hardy at best. God helps those that help themselves and Dead is still DEAD.

  28. avatar George says:

    So…..how about getting some of the willing congregation and train them up? I’m sure there are some good prior service SOF instructors in that area. Think outside of the box, or you may end up in one, 6 feet under!

    1. avatar ATFAgentBob says:

      don’t even need em to be that high speed. Just a regular grunt will suffice for 99% or what the security team will face.

  29. avatar Hannibal says:

    “all the studies show even trained police officers in crisis situations have difficulty hitting their targets…”

    First of all, I have to wonder where this gentleman has time to read “all the studies.”

    Second, assuming he’s right, what does that imply? Do we tell police to stay out of crisis situations? No… because in a crisis, even imperfect solutions are better than the alternative.

    The alternative here is a gunman in a church murdering everyone until he runs out of ammo. I guess this guy wants that?

  30. avatar Accur81 says:

    I’m helping teach my pastor to shoot. We were at Field Time Target and Training yesterday with our armed security team, and he was shooting my new Glock 43 and a Glock 19. Our church has had an armed security team that qualifies 4x / year for several years now. I’d put our shooters against an average cop in any kind of shooting competition. Much has been said of the average cops’ shooting skills on these pages, it hasn’t been positive. The facts are that the average CCW holder is much more accurate in a shooting than the average cop.

    We’ve had cops out of our office who have had 100% hit rates in real shootings in the latter half of 2017. There’s one guy in particular I’d go to battle with again any day.

    Even if you miss, shooting back is a whole lot more effective than hiding under a desk and waiting to die.

  31. avatar CHrisCringle says:

    I am a minister. In a recent discussion among congregational leaders regarding church security, I was TOLD to carry because I am the only one looking back during the sermon. Glock 19 Gen4.

  32. avatar DaveDetroit says:

    The average CCW holder (who actually carries) has self-identified as a “gun guy or gal”. People join the police force for a variety of reasons and may or may not be “gun people”. The best shooter I’ve ever seen was both a police officer and a “gun guy”. He created 4-shot clovers, consistently, that even other officers and gun guys couldn’t duplicate even using his weapon.

    I’d rather have a gun and some training and a chance to fight back than to be in a very indefensible position in a church with nearly zero options to defend myself and others.

    1. avatar John in TX (Was CT) says:

      Exactly, these good people seem to think that when we’re talking about church carry that we expect to be taking 50 yard potshots at the bad guy.

      No sir, just something to guarantee that, while I’m hiding between the pews, that if he gets to my aisle I won’t be a sitting duck.

      Hopefully someone (or multiple someones) in the aisles before me is carrying as well and can deal with it before he reaches me.

      But nobody here is seriously talking about being a hero. The end result (dead bad guy, more people alive than otherwise would be) is the same as if there were a hero, but we’re just talking about self-preservation.

  33. avatar Toni says:

    i grew up in a christian home here in australia and i left the churches and religion behind in large part because of these sorts of attitudes. i told them in no uncertain terms they were fools and slaves in the making among a good many other things as well. they can turn the other cheek all they like. i will stand watch and see how it turns out for them. these days i will defend those worthy of being defended such as the elderly and disabled however those able but not willing can go to hell

  34. avatar Roymond says:

    “Trained”….

    Right. The average cop trains with on the order of a hundred shots a year, whereas everyone I know who carries concealed trains with that every month. More, the cops train on fixed targets in indoor ranges, while most of the citizen carriers I know practice on moving targets as well as targets obstructed by some obstacle so they have to move and shoot. For that matter, I used to shoot with a group where people would do things to try to distract the shooter, anything from firecrackers set off behind to spitballs shot to the face — while I suspect the biggest distraction a cop doing training will have is an itch from ear covering.

  35. avatar Speedbump says:

    Trust me Pastor, my silver “Jesus” bullets would not miss!

  36. avatar mark s says:

    Here is the facts ; (1) I don’t go anywhere unless I’m carrying , full mag , one chambered and draw ready .
    (2) I carry concealed everywhere but in my home and office where I carry open .
    (3) I train often and train for many different scenarios
    (4) I carry what I can shoot most accurately , in my case it is my 22 WMR or my SR9c
    which I am very confidently accurate with at 25 yards and in .
    (5) I would consider myself a fool , if I left my pistol inside my vehicle and then was
    forced to defend myself and my family or other victims without it , should the occasion
    arise .
    (6) If you are a pastor ( shepherd ) and the congregation is your flock , you should be
    considering , in todays climate , of carrying and training yourself .

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