“The suspected gunman behind the Las Vegas massacre made several large gambling transactions in recent weeks, according to multiple senior law enforcement officials and a casino executive,” nbcnews.com reports. “On multiple occasions, Stephen Paddock gambled more than $10,000 per day — and in some cases amounts greater than $20,000 and $30,000 — at Las Vegas casinos.” What’s not being said here . . .

is whether or not those “transactions” were losses. What are the odds? In fact, what are the odds that Mr. Paddock gambled away all his money?

His brother Eric said Stephen Paddock had no political or religious motivation for his murderous rampage. He characterized the killer as “just a guy” who “snapped.” According to washingtonpost.com . . .

Eric Paddock said his brother often gambled in tens of thousands of dollars. “My brother is not like you and me. He plays high-stakes video poker,” he said. “He sends me a text that says he won $250,000 at the casino.”

Eric Paddock said he showed the FBI three years of text messages from his brother and said he had no information whether Stephen Paddock had gambling debts or was financially troubled. “I have absolutely no information he lost a bunch of money. The casino would know that,” he said.

Eric Paddock said his brother previously worked as an accountant but also had real estate investments, including houses and apartments around Orlando. He said Stephen Paddock had no kids and plenty of money to play with.

Right until he didn’t? Would financial ruin have driven the killer to wreak revenge on Las Vegas? If so, will we ever learn the truth of it?

98 Responses to Was Las Vegas Shooter Motivated By Gambling Debts?

  1. It sounds more to me like he had everything planned out well in advance, knew he going to be making a murderous suicide run and figured he could gamble everything away, since the end was near.

    • Yeah, but. . . get pissed at Las Vegas (or casinos, or A casino) and shoot up a country music concert across the street?

      Anyone announce what political party he was yet?

      • The point I was making wasn’t that reckless gambling and (possible) debts led him to the attack…I was making the point that he was gambling recklessly because the attack was already planned and finalized…he was just living it up while waiting for the day of the attack. In which case, he wouldn’t care how much he lost…he knew he wouldn’t be around much longer to care.

      • Pat, while most gun “fanatics” may be Republicans/conservatives, most mass shooting are done either by leftists or otherwise deranged people.
        Lumping the two together is just wrong.

    • His brother also speculated that his brother had lost the rush from gambling and may have chosen to get an adrenaline fix by shooting people.
      Normal people don’t have that urge but crazy does and you can’t fix crazy because crazy is not always apparent. Can’t fix crazy if can’t tell who is going to have crazy in their future.
      I think crazy guy was committing “suicide by cop” without the cops. And no we don’t have to “do something”

  2. Indicative of erratic behavior, to hazard a guess either going on, coming off, or changing dosage of a prescription med for depression or anxiety.

    • So do you think that people who use prescription meds for depression, anxiety, etc. should have the right to own any gun? Should they be disallowed from owning semi auto rifles like AK’s, AR’s?

      I’m honestly asking because I’m starting to think pill poppers shouldn’t be able to. Maybe handguns and shotguns for defense, but semi auto rifles I’m thinking no.

      Yes, that’s a slippery slope, but I don’t use any medications so it doesn’t affect me.

      • It’s not the patients, it’s big pharma and the doctors that need regulating. Most of these meds don’t really work at all, or in vanishingly small percentages, and have horrendous side effects nobody monitors for.

      • Yes that is a slippery slope, and I really don’t have an answer, except maybe had they been court ordered to mental health, then no guns I guess. I think that’s a law anyway? 4473 has that addicted to drugs alcohol reg.I don’t know, would I trust a vet with ptsd taking nerve pills with a firearm, it’s the individual. If that vet was in the yard, nude, with a pitchfork, then maybe not

  3. So please tell me why Europe, Australia, Canada or Japan are considered tyrannical again?

    Is it because they don’t see these types of attacks happen everyday.

    Just another gun reich supporter exercising his right to murder and oppress innocent Americans whose right to refuse to be armed and right to be safe being violated by some deluded maniac.

    If the founders saw what they’re “right” has become they’d changed their minds real fast,

    Las vegas is supposed to be “gun friendly” like you nuts claimed. So you’re telling me not a single “good guy with a gun” was there to stop him?

    Typical.

    My heart goes out to the many citizens of Clark county Nevada that has suffered at the hands of another gun-lobby supported genocide against the American populace.

    • Well, his brother said he wasn’t a gun guy AT ALL, so their goes your narrative. Also, since he apparently used an automatic weapon, and automatic weapons are illegal for almost everyone, it seems that this guy was a criminal, not a law abiding gun owner.

    • This is what happens when you take God and the fear of God out of American culture. The Founders knew this as well. A number of them on numerous occasions wrote that the Constitution will work for a good people. The problem here and now is America judeo-Christian heritage is being eroded. Where there is no fear of final judgment after life there is more evil and more evil behavior like what was witnessed in Las Vegas.

        • I wasn’t laughing. Don’t care if you’re religious or not, when you make right and wrong variables to be decided on by feelings and populism, after a while anything goes.

        • No Jim I am not kidding. If It is NOT about guns what is it about? We are all born with an inalienable right to defend ourselves. That comes from our creator. On that point, I am sure we agree. When free men of a good people (a good society) fail to distinguish good behavior from evil, the good society ceases to be and the tyranny of men rules the day.

        • Jim, you say, “This shooting has nothing to do with a god or lack of a god, at all.”

          By your expression, I would have to say, as Darth Vader said in that classic good v. evil, sci-fi movie, ‘Star Wars’ – “Your lack of faith disturbs me.”

          We both agree its not about the gun. It had to be something about the man.

          I am theorizing, based on my faith and how I was raised, that this man’s life was WAAAY out of balance. He had evil intent and used guns with evil as the consequence. He acted without any thought of honor to his family or himself or if this mass killing was a wrong or right. Or how his family would be forever damaged. Or all the families he would destroy once he went down this path. And it is clear he planned this event with a great deal of thoughtfulness and completely without conscience.

          Surely you believe there is evil in this world. No amount of meds would have prevented this. This man’s soul went completely dark. If I had to guess, right about now, his soul is entering the world of the blow torch.

        • Jim, you say “This shooting has nothing to do with a god or lack of a god, at all.”
          First of all, if you have any faith at all in a Supreme Being, Our creator, Yahweh, whatever name you choose to employ, you need to use a capital “G”…as in GOD. If you choose not to believe in GOD, that is your right and I will defend to the death your right to do so. But as Darth Vader said in that great, good vs evil sci fi classic, Star Wars (Episode IV) – “I find your lack of faith disturbing.”

          But as I said, you have every right to doubt or disbelieve in the existence of God. I am just saying, at the end of your days here on earth…what if your wrong? Don’t worry, I got you covered. I just finished saying a prayer on behalf of your eternal soul. It may not be enough but one can only hope.

          As for the shooting having nothing to do with God or lack of a God, I would say, you are right, its not that at all. It has to do with Faith… that there is something after death..an after life and that we will be judged based on our behavior in this life. From that perspective I would argue that this shooter- turned mass murderer had no faith, no fear of God or of the terrible consequences of his actions. He damaged his honor with his family…ruined them and their honorable name. He destroyed countless families who will not live another day without the horror of his actions in their memory. There is good and evil in this world and there is a thing called the soul of man. This man ended his life with a dark soul bound for the world of the blow torch or worse..waking to the realization he could have chosen a different path and joined his good ancestors and friends in a place of eternal happiness instead of eternal regret and sorrow.

      • On behalf of any fellow morally updstanding, gun-toting atheists, I find your generalization both ignorant and repugnant. Go ahead and get it all off your chest, but just know you many of your fellow PoTG think you are an idiot. Know also that we support your right to be wrong and probably wont hold it against you…much. Carry on.

    • Reminder, don’t feed the troll.
      Don’t want zim/zer to grow into another Mikeb302000

      • No intention of feeding trolls. Just wanted to express a reasoned opinion. If the troll shows more of his/her true colors then clarity and perspective of thought prevails.

    • Yes. Let’s take Japan. Oh wait. We did. Remember that tidbit called the “rape of nanking”? Guess not. How about the “comfort women” of Korea? No clue Huh? That’s the problem with ANTIFA radicals like yourself. You have no concept of history. Uneducated riff raff trolls.

  4. I DON’T know…This all sounds pretty sketchy to me…Sounds like another funky “False Flag” event…”Deep State” anyone…

    • That’s my thinking… well off, bit of a loner, Vegas regular… can you say “Perfect Patsy”?

      If he was short on money he could have sold a building somewhere or one of his airplanes?

      • Really?

        How is it that within a couple of hours of the incident the sheriff had no problems saying it was a “lone wolf”? How do they know with certainty? How do they know that there weren’t multiple shooters in that room? How do we know one didn’t shoot Paddock and then exit the building?

        Where is any footage of anyone with a serious injury? Where is any footage, even after the fact, of any blood on the pavement from the many victims?

        Will we ever get to see footage from the security cams of Paddock entering the hotel with the 8+ firearms plus ammunition lugging it up to the 32nd floor?

        Why is this happening just as the inquiry into the “Russiagate” is about to blow up, Catalonia is peacefully seceding from Spain and the SHARE act coming for a vote, the disaster in Puerto Rico – all happening at the same time? And now the focus of the nation will be solely on this 24/7 for at least several days as they trickle out information.

        These are legitimate questions.

        • Punisher? Have you ever even watched CSI? These Vegas Casinos have cameras every damn place. If there was more than one shooter in that room or if anyone left that room through the hallway or elevator after the shooting started the LVNPD and the Sheriff are going to know it.

          If you want to go with conspiracy theories wait for Pelosi or someone other Dem to come up with this one: Trump had a CIA team recruit this guy to throw the news cycle off of the POTUS’ problems in Puerto Rico after the hurricane, It makes as much sense as anything you’re saying.

      • Really?

        How is it that within a couple of hours of the incident the sheriff had no problems saying it was a “lone wolf”? How do they know with certainty? How do they know that there weren’t multiple shooters in that room? How do we know one didn’t shoot Paddock and then exit the building?

        Where is any footage of anyone with a serious injury? Where is any footage, even after the fact, of any blood on the pavement from the many victims?

        Will we ever get to see footage from the security cams of Paddock entering the hotel with the 8+ firearms plus ammunition lugging it up to the 32nd floor?

        Why is this happening just as the inquiry into the “Russiagate” is about to blow up, Catalonia is peacefully seceding from Spain and the SHARE act coming for a vote, the disaster in Puerto Rico – all happening at the same time? And now the focus of the nation will be solely on this 24/7 for at least several days as they trickle out information.

        These are legitimate questions.

    • And since you have no information or evidence supporting this conclusion it can only be inferred that they don’t want you to know the truth

      Or maybe just that you’re talking out of your ass

  5. He’d been in Vegas since Thursday, would have had to leave guns in car so maid didn’t see them, hard to hide 19 guns in a hotel room from the maid. I think he’d been planning on doing this for some time. A string of big gambling losses and drinking would have been big contributors…

    • I’ve been to a number of shooting events in Vegas and had my firearms in the room. I kept them cased and in the closet or under the bed. I saw a lot of other people in the hotel also walking in with guns. This part of the story doesn’t surprise me at all.

  6. Or (assuming these reports are even true), what are the chances that he was gambling with “house money”, so to speak: i.e. some sort of payoff money, for the act he was getting ready to commit. (I think that sounds just as likely as the theory that he got into huge gambling debt, and decided as a result of that debt to go on a mass-murdering spree – especially one that was as obviously well-planned as this one.)

  7. A person trusted to watch other people’s money lives high on the hog for several years. Eventually he commits unexpected and apparently unexplainable murder-suicide. I think we’ve seen this story before, although never on this scale.

  8. I’d have to wonder about the various social media outlets of ISIS and friends claiming the attack was done by a recently converted man who did this in their name. Also the whereabouts of his apparent girlfriend who appears to have been a Southeast Asia Muslim from the Philippines or Indonesia. If anything the massive gambling was likely something to do because he didn’t need the money where he was going.

  9. …I mean come on…Some well to do guy comes out of nowhere…And just commits a massacre to what…? Become famous, suicide by cop ; which is of course both ironic, and convenient…Now will never really know what was going through this guys head….I do know that they’ll be a sudden flurry of Anti-Freedom legislation. Left-wing screams to curtail Civil Liberties. Maybe even get some RINOs to help support their push to put restrictions, bans, and prohibitions in every local/city/state /Federal to infringe upon the 2nd amendment in the name of public safety!

  10. NO, HIS MOTIVATION IS ONE AND THE SAME EXCLUSIVELY AS WITH ALL OF SOURCE EVIL IN THIS WORLD OF OURS; THAT BEING ONE WHOSE GOD IS SELF AND THAT IS IN EFFECT, SATAN/THE DEVIL/LUCIFER/ALLAH AND ALL OF THE OTHER MULTITUDE OF NAMES GIVEN OUR TRIUNE GOD’S ADVERSARY!; THAT THE FACT WELL KNOW TO ALL THAT BELONG TO OUR CREATOR, OUR TRIUNE GOD, JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD.

    • THIS LAS VEGAS MASS MURDER YET AGAIN UNDERLINES THE REALITY THAT OUR LIFE IS SUBJECT TO CEASING IN AN INSTANT AND THE ETERNAL DOMICILE OF OUR SOUL IN EITHER HEAVEN OR HELL SOLELY DEPENDS ON OUR PREVIOUSLY ESTABLISHED RELATIONSHIP WITH OUR CREATOR, OUR TRIUNE GOD; ONLY OUR FREE WILL INDIVIDUAL RELATIONSHIP THROUGH OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST THE SOLELY DETERMINING FACTOR. IN AN INSTANT OUR LIFE CAN BE SNUFFED OUT AND THE STATUS OF OUR RELATIONSHIP WITH OUR HEAVENLY FATHER IS FROZEN FOREVER.
      BE PREPARED OR SUFFER THE CONSEQUENCES . . . FOREVER.

      James Allen Wyatt, Jr., 11/27/1937; Miss. State Univ. Class of 1961

      ONE AND ALL MUST REALIZE THAT ACTUALLY LUCIFER HAS ALWAYS BEEN HERE AND THE NUMBER OF HIS FOLLOWERS GROW EXPONENTIALLY BY THE HOUR!! AND THIS IS AS TO BE EXPECTED AS HE IS WELL AWARE THAT HIS TIME IS DIMINISHING IN LENTH IN HIS EFFORT TO DEFEAT OUR CREATOR AS IT IS WITH THE TIME OF HIS DEMONIC DEVOTEES AND THUS THE MOTIVATION OF HE AND HIS DISCIPLES LOGICALLY FOCUSED ON “PULLING OUT ALL OF THE STOPS” HE WELL KNOWING THAT HIS TIME IS GOING SHORTER AND SHORTER.
      THE SOURCE OF THIS EXPONENTIAL INCREASE OF EVIL NOR THE ACTS RESULTING IS IN ANY WAY A MYSTERY TO THOSE WHO BELONG TO OUR CREATOR, OUR TRIUNE GOD.

      • jesus christ dude, chill out with your Koran / bible preaching ..enjoy what you believe in and keep it to yourself and be happy. This nut job killer would have benefited greatly from good meds and twice week vists to a good shrink, or just blow his own head off and leave everybody else alone

    • On some phones, you can roll backwards into your text history for years, if you don’t have a huge number of texts coming in to you.

      On my phone, you could scroll upwards and see at least a couple years’ worth of texts from some of my contacts.

      • Thanx, …I knew they could be back traced. I just always delete mine pronto, and know some phones r set up after so long to delete text. I thot three years of brothers text kinda suspicious, evidently not.

  11. When will they ban assault casinos? Needless violence against wallets and bank accounts is easily preventable. No one needs to gamble! Think of the children!

  12. Set up. He was dead when they entered the room. Two windows broken out that look very far apart so was it a large suite? Did it have multiple exits? Someone trying to interrupt a presidency that they didn’t want? Let the conspiracy theories begin!

  13. Does it really matter WHY he did it??? The only problem is it would have been better if he’d of done it 500 rounds sooner. In the end we my never know the why. Most likely all we’ll get is the made up conjecture of the SO-CALLED experts. Keep Your Powder Dry…

  14. I just recently deleted over a 1,000 messages from the kids, apiece. I upgraded phones.

    We’ll know more once the autopsy’s done.

  15. he owned 2 airplanes, property, probably received a pension and had enough money to buy anywhere between 10 and 20 guns (WSJ says 20) so..NO he was probably not motivated to almost kill 600 innocent people by gambling debts

  16. The police breached the hotel room door quite some time after the shooting stopped, right? Paddock was already dead, we’re told, a suicide. Is it fantastical to consider the possibility that he was killed before the massacre which was carried out by some party or parties unknown and who left the scene before the police arrived?

    • While not fantastical, it would require the security cameras to be down. If they go down, they are fixed, pronto.
      Ever been in a modern casino the size of MB? They have cameras in all public spaces, including the hallways to the rooms. The video is kept for years.
      Easy to check.
      This is not to say it couldn’t have happened, but I will bet money those security videos were one of the first things checked before the door was breached, to give the entry team an idea of how many people were in the room.

  17. TTAG…please change the picture at the top of this post. No need to see the image of the dead girl and her grieving friends.

  18. Anyone who gambles that much is probably a really impulsive and reckless guy in general. Probably wasnt mentally stable or some with underlying mental health issues that are gonna come up in the next few days. Has anyone found this guys facebook page?

    • Not. I have conservative but well off friends that won’t put anything smaller than a hundred in a video poker machine, if you sit and play for a couple hours starting with a grand or two, it’s not at all unusual for the player card to record several thousand dollars worth of “turn” doesn’t mean he won or lost much either way, just that he gambled with large sums. People that have big money just tend to place larger bets but only play with disposable income.

  19. First off, we don’t know shit. A very small group in this country know much, and a lot of that is subject to change for them so Johnny Q. Public won’t have close to a reliable picture about intent, procedure, and process for the better part of the week.

    Second, anyone who speculates it’s a “false flag” with absolutely no information is an idiot. It’s a reflex of the politically tribal and low intelligence. “What? Gun violence?? Couldn’t have been one of us! It makes more sense that it’s an impostor on a suicide mission for a shadowy conspiracy!” Hate to break it to you all, it was is much, much more likely one of us… as in gun owners and gun lovers. (That’s right, I’m a gun owner and lover myself. I’ve got an AR that I custom built and I’m quite fond of… I’m also reasonable.)

    Americans died needlessly last night. We as a community will be partially at fault (in perception, if not just in fact) if we turn a blind eye to the security and safety threats our hobby and/or livelihood submit the rest of our family members or friends to. Think of someone you love. Think of them at that concert last night. It was a country concert… how many gun advocates do you think were there, helpless? And the first thing we do is blame the opposing political side?! Let’s get angry about these jackasses killing Americans and making us all look like jackasses that will turn our guns on our country folk, let’s invite a dialogue. Everything that doesn’t support our arguments is not an inside job. Be reasonable.

    We talk about responsible gun ownership… we talk about individual safety practices… why? We know that guns are made with the intent to be dangerous but safe if handled responsibly. We also know that reasonable people can become unreasonable very fast if they are susceptible and the situation is right. What happens when responsible ownership goes wrong? 50+ dead. Let’s just acknowledge that we’re so scared to lose our rights that we’re literally unwilling to accept the likely truth and move forward to, like giving a shit about actually protecting our people.

    The sound and cyclical rate was different, but in general the videos of last night reminded me of the suppressive fire I and my team experienced in Afghanistan on multiple occasions and multiple deployments, with the simple difference that we weren’t all that helpless or all that surprised. Bump-fire, hellfire (that name is going to play real well in the media), whatever was used is our “fun” worth a single person’s life? How many are going to go without family members because we want to look absurd on range day. Simply refusing to accept the truth about guns makes us foolish and should. We can keep our guns, but we don’t have to reject the reality.

    Let the hate begin.

    • Freedom is messy, and life is inherently full of risks. The alternative, taken to its logical conclusion, is tyranny. So, I’ll take the stance of our founders.

      “Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.”

      ― Benjamin Franklin

      “If you love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”

      ― Samuel Adams

      • I respect your perspective. More importantly, your reasonable rebuttal. The problem with the slippery slope argument is that it goes both ways.

        “If we don’t have stand-off capabilities, we’re going to be oppressed.”

        “If we don’t have full-auto, we’re going to be oppressed.”

        “If we don’t legalize 30mm grenade launchers, we’re going to be oppressed.”

        “If we don’t have AT4s, we’re going to be oppressed.”

        Our most recent jackass shooter had the intent and the resources to use a purpose-built belt-fed automatic or a grenade launcher on that crowd last night if it were available to him, but it wasn’t. Does anyone here think that wasn’t a good thing?

        We already accept that some things should be legal and some shouldn’t because the dangers outweigh the benefit.

        A reasonable middle ground is found between the dialog. We can’t have that dialogue if both sides are screaming or silent. Bump-fire and other full-auto simulacrum’s utility is limited to literal giggles on the range and laying waste vast and open swaths of humanity… there’s no reasonable argument for squad style full-auto fire suppression in civilian life.

        • There is no “reasonable middle ground” when it comes to civil rights — which includes the right to keep and bear arms. You either have them, or you don’t; you’d call them “privileges” otherwise. There is actually no reasonable argument against full-auto fire suppression in civilian life. The actions of a handful of nuts have absolutely no bearing on the meaning or scope of the civil rights of the rest of us, and civil rights are not subject to the democratic process nor to (non)arguments grounded in social utility.

          That is the delusion that every gun-grabber (and that IS the right and proper term for any gun control advocate) needs to be disabused of or else they need to politely bow out because ANY (non)argument so formatted is moot and irrelevant, period.

    • Hannibal,
      What you’ve just said is akin to every knifemaker everywhere shares the blame anytime someone is stabbed by a Chav in the UK. Or General Motors, or anyone who owns one, is responsible when some road-rager uses their car as a weapon.
      And it’s the same asinine logic as “ALL MUSLIMS, EVERYWHERE are responsible” every time there’s an Islamist attack.

      Where and when does personal responsibility come into play in your world?

      Why does “ALL GUN OWNERS!” wash but not “ALL BLACKS!” (for example)?

      His brother insisted he “wasn’t a gun guy”. I’m betting like with NEARLY 100% of cases, this man was a troubled individual and went off. This wasn’t some spur of the moment decision either. Like other cases, again, this man was in a downward spiral and this took more planning and calculation than a “spur of the moment” decision. There’s never really any such thing as a “good guy, everything’s great – suddenly snaps-murder/suicide”.

      • This is by far the most flawed argument that can be levied, despite being written twice.

        Cars aren’t outlawed… neither are guns in general. Cars, and their use, are regulated daily so that asshole going 90 through downtown on his cell phone won’t be for doing that long enough to kill a member of your family.

        Tanks are outlawed on the roads… so would be purpose-built dump trucks or harvesters with wide rakes for mowing-down groups of people. Not because all tank or harvester enthusiasts would use them for evil, but because some of them would. You want to get crushed by either of those at the Farmer’s Market? Car violence can also be prevented more cheaply with barriers than gun violence can when there are multiple approaches or sight lines into a well populated area.

        Let’s not stop there… What other laws and industries have we agreed to limit our absolute freedom for in exchange for stability? How about prescription drugs? Public access to vulnerable pieces of infrastructure like city water treatment plants and nuclear facilities? How about our rights to mill about the airport without harassment over weapons? All of these are functional limits on our personal freedoms for the sake of public welfare and the efficiency of our combined endeavor.

        I’m a gun guy. You all are gun guys and girls… and here’s where the cognitive dissonance begins and you all shut down. This guy was a gun guy too. Gun guys, enjoying our 2A right, are the ones doing this to us. You could be the next one. Any of us could be the next one statistically. Given that these things happen semi-annually at least, we’re near guaranteed the next mass shooter has already bought their first purpose-built gun. Gun guys are the ones doing the killing. Most of us don’t, so why the flying f*** do we want to enable people from our camp to do unspeakable things, endanger our citizens, and make us all look like psychos.

        This started as an appeal to reason and a call to ban toys that are exploiting loopholes in the firmly established full-auto ban. As a community, we already agree that nothing significant and good can come of full-auto weapons or mods in the civilian realm. Anyone who looses sleep over not being about to “rock n’ roll” but doesn’t lose sleep
        about the next full-auto attack is themselves a selfish and entitled monster because it will happen again.

        And because I don’t expect anyone who writes in all caps to have the patience to read this far, to understand the term “false binary” (which this is) or to consider an opinion other than all-or-nothing absolutist they’ve been led to through lobbying, marketing, and firearms social media in order to get more of their paycheck in exchange for more unnecessary and problematic crap, then here’s an equally valid argument without the moral tension that should be enough:

        When the madman injures 500+ with illegal guns, our legal guns and our established gun laws look fine… When the madman injures 500+ with completely legal guns, it makes those legal guns look like the potential problem and threat to the public good that they are.

        The gun community has been hijacked by absolute jack-asses, walking into airports & police departments with ARs, AKs, and tactical gear as part of an unnecessary and exceedingly dangerous open-carry demonstration and threatening people who are peacefully assembling to practice their 1st and 14th amendment rights. I love my guns but this Combat Vet is starting to really dislike gun guys. We’ve got a deserved image problem, and it started because we’re not policing each other. Great power = great responsibility, right? Let’s start acting with some.

        The only reasonable thing to do is to close the loopholes here, regulate full-auto modifications like purpose-built full-autos, anything else and we drift further from the country as a whole. As a community, we’re becoming wackos -not sportsmen- when we put our rights to frustrate federal regulation before other’s rights to safety and security.

        But… don’t take my word for it, the NRA just agreed and publicly suggested federal regulation for full-auto simulacrum mods… signed by Wayne La Pierre and released just a few minutes ago. This is the nightmare scenario that they were dreading, and they see it as strategically as I do (I wouldn’t being to guess as to their moral take on the events.)

        Now that you’ve got your marching orders from high command, I expect the resistance will quell a bit.

        • Yours is also, by far, THE most flawed (non)argument that can be levied, and it’s been written everywhere. Not just here.

          Despite being so regulated, and much less so than guns by the way, traffic fatalities still number more than double that of all homicides put together. No, regulations don’t stop someone from doing something, like running a red light while speeding through an intersection. It only punishes behavior after the fact. This is what you and those on the left cannot seem to comprehend.

          Tanks are not actually outlawed on roads, and you’d know that had you actually done any research on the subject at all. The only thing that would stop a heavy vehicle from going over any street or bridge is the axle weight limit of that thoroughfare. Anyway, ALL tanks — even those with working guns — are legal to own by federal statute. (State laws may vary, as always.) Generally, we do NOT ban things because a handful of nuts MIGHT go on a rampage.

          Prescription drugs, now that you mention it, are orders of magnitude more likely to kill you than some nut with a rifle or even a tank. So, please, spare us the useless twaddle that is, moreover, utterly irrelevant to the topic — if not factually incorrect in the first place.

          That you use these (non)arguments and claim to be a “gun guy” and not be cognitively dissonant is a remarkable feat of mental gymnastics on your part that is rarely matched or duplicated. We shut down because of people like you that have no idea what they’re even talking about and then proceed to chastise us for something we didn’t do, had no part in, and wish never happened. And no, I highly doubt any of us could be the next Mandalay Bay shooter. You could be, perhaps, given your penchant for projection. “Gun guys” are not the ones doing the killing. That you, me, or anyone else owns a gun no more makes any of us a “gun guy” than any of us owning a car makes us a “car guy.” So, no, it’s NOT people in “our camp” doing this shit and for you to even suggest that we’re somehow “enabling it” makes you same exact same kind of jackal that is feasting on the blood and tears of the victims of these tragedies and saying that we were in the room with him pulling the fucking trigger.

          I’m sorry, but FUCK YOU and EVERY-FUCKING-THING that you stand for.

          There no such “loopholes” in any full-auto “ban,” nor could your ignorant ass point out any. They don’t fucking exist, just like the gun show “loophole.” Period. Full-fucking-stop. Machine guns were never outright banned to begin with, either. As a “community,” I can also tell you that NONE of us have “agreed” that making machine guns practically unobtainable by the common man (or woman!) has actually produce any good. In fact, if anything, we can out-argue you and every other gun-grabbing mongrel into the fucking ground that there’d be nothing particularly bad about repealing it. Anyone who blames others for shit they didn’t do and had no part in facilitating, and on top of that can’t fucking argue their way out of a wet paper bag to support their knowingly bullshit assertions, is who is actually the selfish and self-entitled monster who will only be waiting for this to happen again JUST so that they can spew their blame at innocent people again.

          In other words, YOU, you fucking asshole.

          And because I don’t expect anyone who writes only in pure fucking sophistry to have the patience nor the intellect to read this far, to understand the term “projection” (which is what YOU have written) or to actual consider the facts of whatever they’re blathering on about instead of virtue signaling to people who already fucking know better than him, HERE’S an argument that’s actually valid:

          When a madman kills nearly 60 people and injures almost 500 more with legally-obtained guns, it only makes it look like legal guns are the problem because like you have a failure of imagination which leads directly to call for — if not implementation of — further stripping of our civil rights from which automatically follows a diminution of public safety, which automatically and by default makes YOU an actual threat to the public good that you well and truly are.

          Oh, and nobody is overly or even covertly threatening people with open carry of any assortment of guns or the wearing of any tactical gear, either. Unless and until you can actually point to one, which you fucking can’t and you damn well know it, you do NOT get to make any such assertions. Furthermore, your personal bonafides are moot, irrelevant, and inapplicable as these are civil rights we’re talking about, jackass. Your personal feelings on the matter don’t even fucking count. You deserve this problem, if anyone does, because you’ve taken it upon yourself to carry out YOUR marching orders from Everytown and Moms Demand to openly and fervently chastise, blame, and accuse gun owners of having ANY part in this heinous acts.

          Again, there are no fucking “loopholes,” asshole, period. STOP fucking talking like there are any. We’ve thoroughly discredited, debunked, dissected, and fisked ALL such claims here. Repeatedly and conclusively. As a “community,” we’re actually being marginalized further by bloviating sycophants like you — and there is NO right to “safety” or “security,” either. We each must secure these for ourselves, first and foremost.

          But, don’t just take my word for it. The NRA has already taken back what they said in a rapid about-face. YOU are part and parcel to the nightmare scenario that we’ve been dreading, and we don’t need any fucking turn-coat BASTARDS like you blaming us for things that WE HAD NO GODDAMN MOTHERFUCKING PART IN WHATSO-FUCKING-EVER. Not in ANY way, shape, or form; not in ANY conceivable level whatsoever.

          Now that YOU’VE got YOUR marching orders from Herr Bloomberg, I expect resistance to not only stabilize but intensify.

    • Hannibal,
      What you’ve just said is akin to every knifemaker everywhere shares the blame anytime someone is stabbed by a Chav in the UK. Or General Motors, or anyone who owns one, is responsible when some road-rager uses their car as a weapon.
      And it’s the same asinine logic as “ALL MUSLIMS, EVERYWHERE are responsible” every time there’s an Islamist attack.

      Where and when does personal responsibility come into play in your world?

      Why does “ALL GUN OWNERS!” wash but not “ALL BLACKS!” (for example)?

      His brother insisted he “wasn’t a gun guy”. I’m betting like with NEARLY 100% of cases, this man was a troubled individual and went off. This wasn’t some spur of the moment decision either. Like other cases, again, this man was in a downward spiral and this took more planning and calculation than a “spur of the moment” decision. There’s never really any such thing as a “good guy, everything’s great – suddenly snaps-murder/suicide”.

      • This is by far the most flawed argument that can be levied, despite being written twice, so here’s the response twice. It’s a logical fallacy called a false binary.

        Cars aren’t outlawed… neither are guns in general. Cars, and their use however, are regulated daily so that asshole going 90 through downtown on his cell phone won’t be for doing that long enough to kill a member of your family. We are protected from unsafe cars and unsafe driving by laws we largely agree with.

        Tanks are outlawed on the roads… so would be purpose-built dump trucks or harvesters with wide rakes for mowing-down groups of people. Not because all tank or harvester enthusiasts would use them for evil, but because some of them would. You want to get crushed by either of those at the Farmer’s Market? Car violence can also be prevented more cheaply with barriers than gun violence can when there are multiple approaches or sight lines into a well populated area.

        Let’s not stop there… What other laws and industries have we agreed to limit our absolute freedom for in exchange for stability? How about prescription drugs? Public access to vulnerable pieces of infrastructure like city water treatment plants and nuclear facilities? How about our rights to mill about the airport without harassment over weapons? All of these are functional limits on our personal freedoms for the sake of public welfare and the efficiency of our combined endeavor.

        I’m a gun guy. You all are gun guys and girls… and here’s where the cognitive dissonance begins and you all shut down. This guy was a gun guy too. Gun guys, enjoying our 2A right, are the ones doing this to our people and to us as a movement. You could be the next one. Any of us could be the next one statistically. Given that these things happen semi-annually at least, we’re near guaranteed the next mass shooter has already bought their first purpose-built gun. Gun guys are the ones doing the killing. Most of us don’t, so why the flying f*** do we want to enable people from our camp to do unspeakable things, endanger our citizens, and make us all look like psychos.

        This started as an appeal to reason and a call to ban toys that are exploiting loopholes in the firmly established full-auto ban. As a community, we already agree that nothing significant and good can come of full-auto weapons or mods in the civilian realm. Anyone who looses sleep over not being about to “rock n’ roll” but doesn’t lose sleep
        about the next full-auto attack is themselves a selfish and entitled monster because it will happen again.

        And because I don’t expect anyone who writes in all caps to have the patience to read this far, to understand the term “false binary” (which this is) or to consider an opinion other than all-or-nothing absolutist they’ve been led to through lobbying, marketing, and firearms social media in order to get more of their paycheck in exchange for more unnecessary and problematic crap, then here’s an equally valid argument without the moral tension that should be enough:

        When the madman injures 500+ with illegal guns, our legal guns and our established gun laws look fine… When the madman injures 500+ with completely legal guns, it makes those legal guns look like the potential problem and threat to the public good that they are.

        The gun community has been hijacked by absolute jack-asses, walking into airports & police departments with ARs, AKs, and tactical gear as part of an unnecessary and exceedingly dangerous open-carry demonstration and threatening people who are peacefully assembling to practice their 1st and 14th amendment rights. I love my guns but this Combat Vet is starting to really dislike gun guys. We’ve got a deserved image problem, and it started because we’re not policing each other. We’re treating this like everyone should be able to walk right up to The President without a security check because most of us wouldn’t do anything wrong. That’s patently absurd. Great power is supposed to require great responsibility, right? Let’s start acting with some.

        The only reasonable thing to do is to close the loopholes here, regulate full-auto modifications like purpose-built full-autos, anything else and we drift further from the country as a whole. As a community, we’re becoming wackos -not sportsmen- when we put our rights to frustrate federal regulation before other’s rights to safety and security.

        But… don’t take my word for it, the NRA just agreed and publicly suggested federal regulation for full-auto simulacrum mods… signed by Wayne La Pierre and released just a few minutes ago. This is the nightmare scenario that they were dreading, and they see it as strategically as I do (I wouldn’t begin to guess as to their moral take on the events.)

        Now that you’ve got your marching orders from high command, I expect the resistance will quell a bit.

        • Yours is also, by far, THE most flawed (non)argument that can be levied, and it’s been written everywhere. Not just here.

          Despite being so regulated, and much less so than guns by the way, traffic fatalities still number more than double that of all homicides put together. No, regulations don’t stop someone from doing something, like running a red light while speeding through an intersection. It only punishes behavior after the fact. This is what you and those on the left cannot seem to comprehend.

          Tanks are not actually outlawed on roads, and you’d know that had you actually done any research on the subject at all. The only thing that would stop a heavy vehicle from going over any street or bridge is the axle weight limit of that thoroughfare. Anyway, ALL tanks — even those with working guns — are legal to own by federal statute. (State laws may vary, as always.) Generally, we do NOT ban things because a handful of nuts MIGHT go on a rampage.

          Prescription drugs, now that you mention it, are orders of magnitude more likely to kill you than some nut with a rifle or even a tank. So, please, spare us the useless twaddle that is, moreover, utterly irrelevant to the topic — if not factually incorrect in the first place.

          That you use these (non)arguments and claim to be a “gun guy” and not be cognitively dissonant is a remarkable feat of mental gymnastics on your part that is rarely matched or duplicated. We shut down because of people like you that have no idea what they’re even talking about and then proceed to chastise us for something we didn’t do, had no part in, and wish never happened. And no, I highly doubt any of us could be the next Mandalay Bay shooter. You could be, perhaps, given your penchant for projection. “Gun guys” are not the ones doing the killing. That you, me, or anyone else owns a gun no more makes any of us a “gun guy” than any of us owning a car makes us a “car guy.” So, no, it’s NOT people in “our camp” doing this shit and for you to even suggest that we’re somehow “enabling it” makes you same exact same kind of jackal that is feasting on the blood and tears of the victims of these tragedies and saying that we were in the room with him pulling the fucking trigger.

          I’m sorry, but FUCK YOU and EVERY-FUCKING-THING that you stand for.

          There no such “loopholes” in any full-auto “ban,” nor could your ignorant ass point out any. They don’t fucking exist, just like the gun show “loophole.” Period. Full-fucking-stop. Machine guns were never outright banned to begin with, either. As a “community,” I can also tell you that NONE of us have “agreed” that making machine guns practically unobtainable by the common man (or woman!) has actually produce any good. In fact, if anything, we can out-argue you and every other gun-grabbing mongrel into the fucking ground that there’d be nothing particularly bad about repealing it. Anyone who blames others for shit they didn’t do and had no part in facilitating, and on top of that can’t fucking argue their way out of a wet paper bag to support their knowingly bullshit assertions, is who is actually the selfish and self-entitled monster who will only be waiting for this to happen again JUST so that they can spew their blame at innocent people again.

          In other words, YOU, you fucking asshole.

          And because I don’t expect anyone who writes only in pure fucking sophistry to have the patience nor the intellect to read this far, to understand the term “projection” (which is what YOU have written) or to actual consider the facts of whatever they’re blathering on about instead of virtue signaling to people who already fucking know better than him, HERE’S an argument that’s actually valid:

          When a madman kills nearly 60 people and injures almost 500 more with legally-obtained guns, it only makes it look like legal guns are the problem because like you have a failure of imagination which leads directly to call for — if not implementation of — further stripping of our civil rights from which automatically follows a diminution of public safety, which automatically and by default makes YOU an actual threat to the public good that you well and truly are.

          Oh, and nobody is overly or even covertly threatening people with open carry of any assortment of guns or the wearing of any tactical gear, either. Unless and until you can actually point to one, which you fucking can’t and you damn well know it, you do NOT get to make any such assertions. Furthermore, your personal bonafides are moot, irrelevant, and inapplicable as these are civil rights we’re talking about, jackass. Your personal feelings on the matter don’t even fucking count. You deserve this problem, if anyone does, because you’ve taken it upon yourself to carry out YOUR marching orders from Everytown and Moms Demand to openly and fervently chastise, blame, and accuse gun owners of having ANY part in this heinous acts.

          Again, there are no fucking “loopholes,” asshole, period. STOP fucking talking like there are any. We’ve thoroughly discredited, debunked, dissected, and fisked ALL such claims here. Repeatedly and conclusively. As a “community,” we’re actually being marginalized further by bloviating sycophants like you — and there is NO right to “safety” or “security,” either. We each must secure these for ourselves, first and foremost.

          But, don’t just take my word for it. The NRA has already taken back what they said in a rapid about-face. YOU are part and parcel to the nightmare scenario that we’ve been dreading, and we don’t need any fucking turn-coat BASTARDS like you blaming us for things that WE HAD NO GODDAMN MOTHERFUCKING PART IN WHATSO-FUCKING-EVER. Not in ANY way, shape, or form; not in ANY conceivable level whatsoever.

          Now that YOU’VE got YOUR marching orders from Herr Bloomberg, I expect resistance to not only stabilize but intensify.

  20. “Bump-fire, hellfire (that name is going to play real well in the media), whatever was used is our “fun” worth a single person’s life?” I assume that you want the gun enthusiast community to call for bump-fires to be made illegal.

    That won’t help, because full-auto conversions are easy for any guy with a Bridgeport mill and access to the internet. Material cost is near zero. Or heck with conversions, just make a carload of Sten guns; the plans for those are everywhere.

    It also won’t buy any friendship from the gun-grabbers. Read today’s Chicago Tribune calling for the banning of ALL semi-automatics. You’ll never appease them by banning only bump-firing. They believe we aren’t even human, simply because we enjoy guns. Don’t give them an inch.

    It’s also absurd to believe that one of America’s most successful mass-murderers would be stopped by a bump-fire law. After all, it’s definitely illegal to shoot a concert full of 20,000 fans. Pretty sure he knew that.

    • Thank you for your reasoned response.

      I totally agree. This was a tragedy and my heart goes out to the victims and their families. That being said, given that this tragedy already took place, I started to catch my when I heard it was full-auto and lost that breath again when I saw the video and it sounded as if this could actually be a legal mod.

      Why? Because a gun owner using an illegal firearm doesn’t diminish our argument, it strengthens it. It’s a reason FOR responsible and legal ownership.

      Misuse of a legal firearm and modification endangers our citizens, diminishes our argument, and endangers our freedoms.

      This might be null and void, we don’t know yet, but it certainly sounded like the cyclical rate of fire changed in the video, and that tells me he could possibly have mail ordered this and been giggling at the range with it last week. To the firearms uneducated that we live with, it makes ARs look real bad. Makes the NRA look real bad. Makes the gun rights movement and community look real bad.

      Basically, my argument is that if we build it, they (the murderous) will come. They will continue to come. They will hurt our fellow Americans and they ruin it for the rest of us.

      There’s no easy answer, but it’s not supposed to be easy. Either way, thank you for your good points. I’m glad to be having this conversation with my peeps (it wasn’t easy for me.)

      • And no thank you for your blame-filled vitriol further up, which I rightly answered in-kind.

        Whether it’s a legal or illegal accessory makes no argument unto itself, nor could any cogent and coherent argument be built upon it.

        In this particular situation, being as responsible as one can be would not have made any difference. Especially since you are, as a matter of fact, are directing blame towards us claiming that we somehow facilitated it. On top of that, you use demonstrably bullshit (non)arguments that I know for a FACT that you yourself MUST have seen dissected, debunked, discredited, and fisked up, down, and sideways all over this site at least once.

        Also, that’s not going to matter to the gun-grabbing mongrels who publicly stated that they’re withholding sympathy for the victims simply because they might hold the wrong politics, in their eyes. Personal responsibility is a completely alien and foreign concept to these people. As far reason, logic, and evidence. All of which WE have and THEY do not.

        Misuse of a common tool only endangers our freedoms because of people like THEM — and because of people like YOU who have joined THEM in blaming all of us (including you).

        Modern sporting rifles, the NRA, and people like us WILL always and forever look bad to THEM. It wouldn’t even matter if all violence, everywhere stopped for good tomorrow. THEY will simply change tac and continue coming after our rights.

        Basically, your (non)argument is vapid, full of holes (pun intended), and is actually what is used to pass more onerous and ineffective gun control laws in the first place. It wouldn’t even matter if it was guns, IEDS, box trucks, etc. THEY WOULD STILL PASS LAWS THAT PUNISH US REGARDLESS OF WHATEVER THE FUCK ANYONE ELSE THINK, SAYS, OR DOES.

        There is one easy answer: stop batting for the other fucking team, for starters.

  21. Yes, let’s take Japan as an example. Oh wait we already did. Remember that tidbit called the “rape of nanking”? How about the “comfort women of Korea”?
    That’s the problem with you violent ANTIFA types. You suck at history. Always shooting your mouth off before thinking. Oh wait, you can’t think. Oh well.

    • Everyone else’s responses and rebuttals were pretty reasonable and I appreciate them. One’s quite convincing.

      Yours were not. Who’s invading us again?

      Violent ANTIFA? Right, got it… If I’m not with you then I’m against you.

      Tribal much??

      Why not just call me a Muslim extremist and dig the knife in deeper? My army buddies and I would get a good laugh at that. I have an opinion that’s different, don’t hide behind labels, get your head out of the sand, and engage.

      P.S. If I remember my history class right, the U.S. western frontier wan’t the romantic environment we’ve been told. It was dismal because it was rugged but mostly because every man was his own judge, jury, and executioner.

      • My comment was a response to some nut job above but this site stuck it here. I’m not going tribal that’s something that’s already been forced on the indigenous people of this country.

      • His was actually quite convincing, whether you like yo think so or not.

        Also, the issue of civil rights — including the right to keep and bear arms — IS an all-or-nothing prospect. You either have them or you don’t. Otherwise, they’re called “privileges.” Full-stop.

        Nobody needs a reason to prepare themselves for inter-personal violence, although ANTIFA is quite a legitimate reason now that you mention it.

        You have yet to get your head of the sand yourself, but, you’ve still mistakenly chosen to engage beforehand. A little light in facts, much?

        Why don’t you just blame us for these murders some more and keep twisting that knife yourself? We’re all getting a good laugh at that, right now.

  22. Shooter has gambling debt. Shooter has enough money to buy a sizable amount of hardware and ammo to go full wanker without his brother knowing it. Shooter has optimal room and firing angle pre-planned for planned concert. Shooter suicides, no witnesses or testimony.

    Suspicious guy is suspicious.

    • They are talking guns because they don’t want to talk MOTIVE. This guy is not ISIS. but he probably is RESIST! The last thing the cathedral wants to have to admit that the only mental illness this guy had was trump derangement syndrome.
      It is clear that this attack was planned in detail , in very minute detail . The shooter is very organized and would not have chosen a group of people at random after all that work..
      I believe that the attack was politically motivated . He was a wealthy man and not some loner youth at the average age of onset for schizophrenia, like adam lanza. He was a very successful person professional , and was getting … had a girlfriend.

      The media has not said anything about the killers social media posts or activity. They also have shown no interest in talking to the former coworkers and friends of this guy.
      The only source of the idea that he ” wasn’t political ” is His brother who admits that they ” aren’t close” .
      They seem really eager to paint this as an ” unexplained event with no motive” .
      If you ask yourself ” would a man go through ENORMOUS amounts of planning and not have any reason for attacking the particular group he did? He had to choose that particular group of people for some reason. What kind of people come to mind when you think country music?

  23. He lost his coin, tried double down with debt, ISIS bought his Debt and said good bye sucker, go Hari Kari and debt erased.

  24. Comments aren’t showing up, and I seriously doubt (from seeing the doubles posted) that they are flagged for scrutiny.
    Also, clicking on “Notify me of follow-up comments by email” still doesn’t work.

    Maybe it’s time to ditch this comment system?

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