Question of the Day: Guns On Planes?

Gun on plane (courtesy rebrn.com)

“[Indiana State Representative Jim] Lucas is sincere when he argues that federal restrictions on private ownership of machine guns should be abolished,” indystar.com reports, incredulously enough. “Or that laws banning citizens from carrying guns on airplanes should be eliminated. Lucas would allow airlines to decide whether passengers may bear arms at 30,000 feet. And he told me he wouldn’t hesitate to fly on a commercial flight where he and others carried guns.” Would you?

comments

  1. avatar James R says:

    Just a reminder for everyone that “getting sucked out of a plane through a bullet hole” is a myth.

    1. avatar John V says:

      According to LaLa Land aka Hollywood, it is plausible and completely possible.
      JV.

      1. avatar Nigel the Expat says:

        And Suppressors make all guns go “pffft…pfffft…pfffft…”

        😉

    2. avatar Joe R. says:

      But it could likely cause the aircraft to work harder to maintain atmospheric (and the average airliner works pretty hard to just maintain 8,000′ atmospheric) pressure. Any rupture of the hull in ~ strategic places could be problematic structurally and/or aerodynamically. Either way, it’s definitely not something to be poo-pooed or demoted to a ‘trifle’.

      I once helped to take in a heavy aircraft cockpit slider window for repair with a post-it note from the pilot that said “Heard a loud hissing noise. Couldn’t pull clip-board away from the window”. The thermostat for the window’s internal heater mesh had failed causing a thermal run-away, and the window delaminated slightly, causing a small failure of the frame seal. So YMMV regarding getting ‘sucked out a bullet hole’.

      I agree with carrying firearms on a plane, wish that everyone would use frangible ammo, and hit their damn targets. Further I wish they’d take the same cautions as they would firing a weapon on the ISS station or a submarine.

      1. avatar Gov. William J Le Petomane says:

        Not to mention hydraulic lines, electric wires, fuel tanks, etc. Sure, there’s supposed to be a lot of redundancy engineered into the systems, but I can’t see any airline permitting anyone other than a fe deral air marshal to carry on a flight. And if they did it would only be a matter of time before some yahoo would have a ND in the bathroom.

        1. avatar MamaLiberty says:

          By that logic, every human being on the planet would have to be surrounded by bubble wrap, medicated to a coma state, and left to rot. There is no way to pre-empt the idiot or malevolent, except perhaps by individual situational awareness and other self defense measures. All of the “what ifs” cannot in any way justify the destruction of everyone’s right to life, liberty and property. When some become aggressors and threaten or harm others, THEN we can respond. But we can’t tie everyone up and deprive them of life and liberty because they MIGHT do something, some day.

          Those who would trade their liberty for a little (mostly phony) safety, will find themselves with neither one.

          How many guns (and other actual weapons) do the TSA molesters miss each day again? How many of your nightmare scenarios have actually happened anyway?

        2. avatar neiowa says:

          Think we would hear about the fed cop that has/had a ND in an airplane restroom?

          History of the group suggests it would be inevitable. Or leave their gat behind.

        3. avatar Joe R. says:

          That’s right Mama.

          “BEYOND A CERTAIN POINT, ALL DANGERS ARE EQUAL”

          PAY YOUR TAXES AND TAKE YOUR CHANCES.

        4. avatar MamaLiberty says:

          Joe, the thing is that NOBODY actually knows what/where/who that “point” is until AFTER the fact. Often not even then. We know truly that not even the most draconian measures would actually keep everyone “safe.” A tiny cat scratch can kill you.

          The gun grabbers whine constantly that everyone (except their favorites) must be disarmed because they _might_ “snap” and start shooting everyone around them.

        5. avatar Gov. William J Le Petomane says:

          neia, just because we haven’t heard about something doesn’t mean it hasn’t happened. Even though there’s only a handful of fe deral air marshals, I’d be shocked if none of them has ever left his gat in the bathroom.

          Mama L, having the legal freedom to carry on a plane isn’t going to change anything as long as the airlines are allowed to ban the practice. There’s just way too much liability for that to happen. Most of us may be extremely careful with our weapons, but it only takes one moron and the airline might be on the hook for many millions in lawsuits. As it is, pretty much every company of any size has a no gu ns for employees on the job rule because of the liability the company would incur if there were any mishaps. No way airlines would allow it.

        6. avatar MamaLiberty says:

          “There’s just way too much liability”

          Well, Gov. that’s a separate issue. Airlines are not free to make that decision now. If this were a free country (I know, I know…) each airline would decide their own policies, enforce them as they saw fit, and assume the responsibility for the consequences. All of them. And some airline might decide to buck the trend and any number of things others thought were too dangerous. Why, some of them might decide to allow smoking on their aircraft! And their passengers would be very aware of the policies, and choose the airline that served them best. And they would also need to accept responsibility for themselves and the consequences of their choices. If the Feds could be gotten out of the picture, just think of the competition. 🙂

          And no, that’s not going to happen tomorrow… unfortunately.

        7. avatar Chip in Florida says:

          “..Not to mention hydraulic lines, electric wires, fuel tanks, etc.”

          No.

          All of the hydraulic lines combined on a typical airliner of today could be rolled up into a bundle about two feet across. And they aren’t rolled up into bundle exactly because you don’t want there to be one point of failure.

          And even if some yahoo did have a ND in the bathroom, the bullet would have to go through the floor of the bathroom, any number of plumbing (non critical) and electrical conduits (maybe critical but not likely). Then it would have to go through the cargo hold which is usually full of luggage. Then it would have to go through the floor of the cargo area. Then, maybe, possibly, it could hit a hydraulic line and even maybe some more still have enough kinetic energy it could possibly puncture the line.

          Or if you prefer the short version…. No. A ND in the Head isn’t going to do anything but get you severely fined by the FAA with an accompanying bill from the airline owner and one of the operator.

        8. avatar Gov. William J Le Petomane says:

          ‘(maybe critical but not likely)’

          Seriously, Chip? Do you really think that the airlines are going to think, ‘You know, it’s not likely that a firearm discharging on a plane would kill everyone, so let’s go ahead and let them on the plane!’? How many thin sheets of aluminum will a bul let penetrate anyway? How many car doors? How many sheets of drywall? For that matter, how much is it going to cost an airline to divert to the nearest airport to make an emergency landing, then take the plane out of commission for a week while the damage is being repaired and reinspected? What are the odds they’ll be able to recoup their loses from the g un owner who shot the hole in the plane? (Probably well into the 7 figure range.)

          And Mamma L, of all the fed eral bureaucracies I’d like to see disbanded, the FAA is one that should probably keep. You’re never going to get away from the airlines’ liability issues anyway, so you might as well forget about it and concentrate on things we can influence.

        9. avatar Chip in Florida says:

          “…Do you really think that the airlines are going to think, ‘You know, it’s not likely that a firearm discharging on a plane would kill everyone”

          No.

          I think that people who say things like a ND on an aircraft is going to do anything other than inconvenience the passengers are wrong.

          Planes won’t explosively decompress if someone shoots through the hull or window. And the odds, while not zero, of a bullet hitting a hydraulic line which then crashes the plane are about the same as winning the lottery while being struck by lightning.

          In spite of what the comedians, and even the TSA, want you to believe, modern aircraft are not fragile metal tubes that are going to come crashing out of the sky at the slightest bit of damage. Look up Aloha Airlines Flight 243 and you will see that the plane lost about 20 feet of ‘roof’ at altitude and still managed to land safely with only one fatality.

        10. avatar Gov. William J Le Petomane says:

          No, they don’t explosively decompress. But even if you’re threat assessment is right, any discharge will necessitate an immediate emergency landing and the plane will have to be taken out of commission. This will cost millions, which they will sue the person responsible for every penny they can get. But let’s suppose that you’re not a moron and carry responsibly. What happens when due to bad weather the plane is diverted to JFK or for that matter any state that doesn’t honor your permit? Hope you enjoyed your g uns while you had them, because now your a felon.

          It’s never going to happen. If it means that much to you then drive.

      2. avatar Matty 9 says:

        It totally depressurize the plane leading to a vomit inducing rapid decrease in elevation followed by an emergency landing. That’d ruin your trip real quick. ND on a plane?? I’d rather be on a plane with a bunch of snakes, where’d I see that happen??

        1. avatar California Richard says:

          Personnally, I’m tired of these mother f*****g snakes, on this mother f*****g plane!!

      3. avatar Cliff H says:

        Bullet holes? Does not seem like a huge issue.

        1. avatar Joe R. says:

          That was a Boeing product. Boeing builds bombers (and other great “Murican aircraft [I see that they even got contracts looming to build more spacecraft, and that is good]).

          They lost a flight attendant on that one. : ( But the made a bunch of miles back to Hawaii in that configuration.

        2. avatar Kendahl says:

          I flew in a 737 shortly after this incident. I was tempted to ask the cabin crew if our plane was a hardtop or a convertible.

    3. avatar Jonathan-Houston says:

      That’s glib. True, a commercial airliner already has a huge hole in it; it’s called an outlet valve.

      Still, loss of pressure, even moderately from a stray round, is not a fun event. People will get hurt. Cardiac cases and other circumstances could result in fatalities. Even just someone struck by a round that doesn’t penetrate the fuselage still means they’re many minutes, if not hours, from emergency medical facilities.

      I know, your blood pressure is rising and you’re ready to respond. Don’t you go springing a leak, now!

      I’m well aware of other risks and even the mitigating factors in favor of guns aboard planes. I get it, but you’re making it sound like it’s all much ado about nothing, which is reckless and misleading.

      1. avatar JasonM says:

        Are you expecting people to draw their guns and play around with them on the flight? A properly maintained and holstered handgun just going off is less likely than the plane falling out of the sky.

        It would not be unreasonable for an airline to require armed passengers to meet certain criteria such as their training and carry gear. If that’s the case, then any time a gun clears leather (or kydex), it’s because of a serious threat on the plane, so a small hole, depressurization, and unplanned early landing are better than the alternative.

        1. avatar Roymond says:

          Nice idea!

    4. avatar D.O. from CO says:

      Is that concern an actual thing?

    5. avatar coagula13 says:

      Thank you Mythbusters…

  2. avatar Vhyrus says:

    The fact that you did not use that image for the weekend caption contest saddens me greatly.

    1. avatar Marcus (Aurelius) Payne says:

      The captain has turned on the open season sign.

      United Airlines

      I SAID STAY F@#$&ING SEATED! thank you.

      Classified documents reveal there was fifth plane planned on 9/11. They had no trouble, it turns out.

    2. avatar Joe R. says:

      HOOORAAHHH

      That is a BEAUTIFUL and satisfied smile. : )

      Trigger discipline is a ~ : / but somebody get that woman a belt of ammo! : )

    3. avatar Model66 says:

      You beat me to my own comment. Get outta my head, man!

    4. avatar Lucas D. says:

      “THIS is the deal with airline food.”

  3. avatar MamaLiberty says:

    I won’t fly commercial airlines again until I am welcome to carry my sidearm… and maybe even offered a complimentary box of frangible ammunition. The TSA needs to be abolished completely. And yes, individual airlines should be making all security decisions, and bear full responsibility for the consequences of those decisions.

    1. avatar BDub says:

      I think a requirement on frangible ammo would be a great compromise, if it allowed armed air-travel. It wouldnt be too hard to get the ammo industrry to agree on some demarcation standard that airline personel could be trained to identify.

  4. avatar Mark says:

    I live in WA. Things are getting bad here. Indiana is where I’m heading if we can’t fight off the two EXPLETIVE DELETED of Inslee and Ferguson.

    1. avatar Eric Lawrence says:

      We welcome you to become a Hoosier.

      1. avatar Joe R. says:

        But finish that c_nt fight first. You know what they say in the military about problems. “if it was there when you left, then you left it”.

    2. avatar Zachary Gennaro says:

      I’m so sad about Washington. What a marvelous state, like California. Ruined by insatiable statists who can’t help but soil their nest. You’re on borrowed time, with Oregon.

      1. avatar neiowa says:

        Oregon was lost decades ago. Before the slime got to Puget Sound (which was 20years ago).

        1. avatar Joe R. says:

          And they (for some freekin reason) have deer smaller than those in OK (see TTAG’s OR season opener post from yesterday).

    3. avatar Chip Bennett says:

      Come on over to the Hoosier state. Jim Lucas is under quite a bit of attack, currently, because he is the main force in pushing for Constitutional (i.e. permit-less) Carry in Indiana.

      He drafted a bill that took the existing LTCH statutes, and re-worded them to apply to journalists. The idea of licensing first-amendment rights is driving the left bat-**** crazy. Lucas then points out the sheer hypocrisy of their position regarding licensing second amendment-protected rights, based on their arguments against licensing first amendment-protected rights. It has been spectacular.

      1. avatar Mark says:

        Indiana is a great conservative pro gun state. I can see myself living in the greater Indianapolis area. I love the beauty of WA, but I will not be made into a felon if they ban AR15s. We defeated them last year and I hope we can do so again this year. Seattle sickens me. The rest of the state is conservative.

    4. avatar stateisevil says:

      I’m so sad about Washington. What a marvelous state, like California. Ruined by insatiable statists who can’t help but soil their nest. You’re on borrowed time, with Oregon.

      And yes, I would love to fly an airline that allowed me to exercise the 2nd amendment. I’m not concerned about loaded guns on planes. The same rules apply as on the ground on a bus.

    5. avatar FedUp says:

      Never heard of Bob Ferguson before, but here’s his two top achievements as AG, according to the official AG website:

      As Attorney General, Bob Ferguson has:
      *Successfully blocked President Trump’s first executive order barring travel from seven Muslim-majority nations.

      *Won an important case for the rights of same-sex couples in Washington when he filed a consumer protection lawsuit against a Richland florist for refusing to provide flowers for a same-sex wedding. Bob personally argued this case in front of the Washington State Supreme Court, which ruled unanimously in favor of the state.

      http://www.atg.wa.gov/about-bob-ferguson

      1. avatar Mark says:

        He is the ultimate grandstanding liberal EXPLETIVE DELETED. Pretty much against everything the conservatives stand for, including the right to keep and bear arms. Arguably our greatest enemy in the state with Inslee a close second. Adam Smith and the two Senators are also Constitutional traitors of the highest order.

  5. avatar uncommon_sense says:

    I would happily be armed on a commercial airliner and I would be happy to fly with other patrons who were armed. It is no different than being in a grocery store or in
    a subway car with other armed patrons.

    1. avatar Joe R. says:

      ? Well, it’s a little different. I agree that it’s mostly the same principal, but it’s a little different. IMHO We don’t have to throw in on the argument that it’s exactly the same as anything else to make it ok. It can be different as hell, but still an normal interaction with human beings, where some of them may or may not be armed.

  6. avatar Chip Bennett says:

    A few armed passengers would have prevented a dozen terrorists from hijacking four planes using only boxcutters.

    In general (which includes airplanes), I prefer armed, law-abiding people over being disarmed.

    1. avatar Joe R. says:

      “A few armed passengers would have prevented a dozen terrorists from hijacking four planes using only boxcutters.”

      I would caveat, “A few armed passengers ACKNOWLEDGING THE ABSOLUTENESS OF [ANY] THREAT AND EXERCISING THE APPROPRIATE AMOUNT OF WILL would have prevented a dozen terrorists from hijacking four planes using only boxcutters.”

    2. avatar neiowa says:

      You assume that on 9/11 or today the feds would have discriminated against the mohammands cultists from bringing THEIR gats on board.

      1. avatar Joe R. says:

        No, but an armed society is a polite society. muslim extremism was a relatively new concept to the general population of the world on 9/11 because their long history of abuses were pretty much unreported or glossed over by everyone with that information, People would likely have attempted to respond with arms if they knew what the end result (terrorist’s true intentions) were. BUT IT COULD HAVE HAPPENED ON ANY OTHER DATE OR ANY OTHER TIME.

        9/11 WAS LIKE THE TITANIC SINKING – Terrible, horrible loss of life, but now trans-ocean communications are better, there are more life jackets and life boats on cruise ships, ships try harder not to trade paint with icebergs, and people are more aware. THAT THE LESSON ONLY COST ~ 1,100 PEOPLE IS A MIRACLE.

        Same thing as 9/11. That the lesson only cost us ~ 3,400 + people IS A MIRACLE.

  7. avatar Shire-man says:

    How else are we supposed to deal with all the snakes?

    1. avatar Joe R. says:

      ^ this.

      Especially the MFn snakes.

  8. avatar Eric Lawrence says:

    I’m happy sitting next to any number of armed citizens in a movie theatre. I’ll be happy sitting next to any number of armed citizens on planes.

  9. avatar 61north says:

    Until they let us have guns on planes, I’ve always thought they should give everyone on the plane a baseball bat. Just keep a box of them by every loading gate. Pick one up when you get on the plane. Drop it off when you exit the plane. A bunch of passengers armed with just baseball bats would have easily prevented 9-11.

    1. avatar FedUp says:

      The attitude shown (eventually, but too late) on the plane that crashed on its way to DC would have prevented it too.
      “Let us burn you all to death in a fiery crash or we’re going to cut this stewardess’ neck!”
      “How about we beat the crap out of you, castrate you with that boxcutter, stuff your buddy’s private parts in your mouth after we castrate him, and drop you out the landing gear doors at 30,000 feet instead? You won’t need a penis in the afterlife, you can be somebody else’s blessed virgin.”

    2. avatar Ralph says:

      “The Kid From Brooklyn” did a comedy routine called “Bat Day” about ten years ago. Here’s a link, but be warned — this is incredibly NSFW. Or any other place. Still, it’s funny and worth a minute and a half or your life.

      FYI, Big Mike Caracciolo (The Kid From Brooklyn) died in 2013, but not before he posted several funny videos.

      1. avatar Geoff PR says:

        The Kid From Brooklyn – “Bat Day”

        NSFW

  10. avatar strych9 says:

    Honestly I’d view it as a big step in the right direction if they allowed knives.

    Really, the most vicious weapon on an airplane is a pot of boiling water. Combined with a blade it makes a fatal cocktail.

    Guns? I’d have no problem with it, as currently traveling with a gun is kind of a PITA but I don’t view it as a necessity and I’m not stupid enough to think it’s ever going to happen. They banned “carry on” guns in what… ’68? They’re not coming back.

    1. avatar Gov. William J Le Petomane says:

      Tasers could come in handy also.

    2. avatar george lortz says:

      I have always argued that there are only two ways to fly; armed or naked.

  11. avatar Dallas says:

    Bullet to a window equals immediate depressurization. No thank you. We all might be extremely cautious and responsible gun owners, but I know a whole lot of idiots.

    1. avatar Displacedmic says:

      Google it, no it doesn’t

      1. avatar Dallas says:

        I did. And I’m right.

        Bullet holes in the fuselage? Not much of a problem. An entire window? Big problem.

        1. avatar Joe R. says:

          If it was only a ‘hole’ it would still likely to be overcome by the aircraft’s pressurization system. So, it would not de-pressurize instantly. Even if you ‘lost’ the entire window, complete depressurization would take a second / minute. The higher you are the bigger the problem. An F-111 at high-cruise speed at altitude losing cabin pressure you’d see snow in the cockpit. Aircraft hulls are leaky things, and the out-flow valve (used to depressurize an aircraft on descent) get sticky and don’t seal great all of the time (used to be worse when they allowed smoking on aircraft). There are lots, if not hundreds of small places that an aircraft ‘leaks’ pressure and the total volume of an aircraft cabin’s air could nearly be replaced during a long enough flight.

        2. avatar neiowa says:

          nytimes.twit does not count as a “source”.

        3. avatar Joe R. says:

          +++ neiowa

          Everyone needs to stop quoting the puppy-pages / bird-cage-liner NYT. They are just the idiots that get newspaper print all over some otherwise useful paper.

      2. avatar Middle aged tactical mall ninja says:

        Yes it does. Google Payne Stewart and his death. At altitude (depending on how high) while a bullet might not blow out the wall panel you will experience rapid loss of pressure and loss of consciousness in seconds.

        Source – Am a commercial Pilot.

        I am 100% for the second amendment but I do not want some untrained yahoo in the back of my airplane piping off rounds in an attempt to live out thier John McLain fantasy. If you are trained to deal with the specific environmental issues then by all means I support carry on aircraft but I don’t want some idiot from Texas who wants to swing his blaster around becuase seat 9D is arguing with the head that they should be allowed to drink as much as they want.

        1. avatar Joe R. says:

          Maybe you mean you are a pom-pom’d hatted golfer? Payne Stewart’s aircraft suffered from a failed cabin-pressurization system (NOT A HOLE). The crew and passengers suffered from hypoxia because they were operating at an altitude that required cabin pressurization or supplemental oxygen. The effect of the improper pressurization was not detected (or at least not corrected) by the crew and they essentially all passed out from the lack of proper pressure on the air that they were breathing. It had to be slow and insidiously developing or they would have declared an emergency and immediately dived the aircraft to a lower altitude or landed.

        2. avatar C.S. says:

          You may be an airline pilot, but you don’t know what you’re talking about. A single bullet hole would not result in a _sudden_ loss of cabin pressure. Would the pilot have to take remedial action, yes. Would it be an emergency, yes. Would the passengers be pissed, yes. Would it be expensive to fix, hell yes.

          In fact, if people knew what the cost would be for each bullet hole, I’m pretty sure few people would bother.

        3. avatar Jonathan-Houston says:

          “Single bullet hole”, huh? Nice expedient framing of the debate.

          I’ve seen jackwagons at the range fire, then be so frightened by the discharge that lose control of the firearm and keep on firing. Your one bullet could turn into 17 real fast.

          Now, whether that realistic scenario changes the decision calculus here is another story. What is a fact is that your comments fail even to recognize the outer ambit of realistic possibilities, let alone consider their importance. That’s disingenuous.

        4. avatar Sheepdog6 says:

          You are an idiot.

          Source…I’m a Flight Dispatcher. The guy that talks you out of the stupid crap you try to do.

          Payne Stewart died because of a small depressurization that the crew didn’t notice until it was too late. Likely trying to diagnose the issue instead of acting to land the aircraft.

          A window blowout at cruising altitude would cause a rapid depressurization but the aircraft pressure would equal the outside pressure in milliseconds, not long enough to even begin to suck people out of the plane. The masks would drop, you have 4 minutes to get to 14,000 feet, and you and the airplane would be fine.

          Nearly all aircraft accidents are caused by pilot error. The safest thing we could do for commercial aviation would be to remove pilots from the cockpit.

        5. avatar Middle age tactical mall ninja says:

          Good grief not one of you have claimed any actual training as a pilot. Hey Mr. Dispatcher, when you have actual aircraft systems training then you can speak up but not before. I have over 20 years of experience as a commercial pilot. But you don’t know me from Adam so let’s go to the experts at the NTSB.

          From the actual NTSB report on Payne Stewart’s crash.

          “If there had been a breach in the fuselage (even a small one that could not be visually detected by the in-flight observers) or a seal failure, the cabin could have depressurized gradually, rapidly, or even explosively. Research has shown that a period of as little as 8 seconds without supplemental oxygen following rapid depressurization to about 30,000 feet (9,100 m) may cause a drop in oxygen saturation that can significantly impair cognitive functioning and increase the amount of time required to complete complex tasks.”

          Most airlines climb nearly immediately to above 18,000 and within 10-15 mins are at cruise above 25,000. At 30,000, according to the NTSB you have about 8 seconds before you become impaired, not unconscious but impaired enough to have trouble making decisions. I’ve experienced this first hand in altitude training, thankfully never real world.

          But then let’s look at where you are shooting. Think that bad guy is standing next to the window where you can shoot him? Nope. He’s at the front of the plane near the door to my office, trying to get in. No terrorist is going to try to take a plane from sear 34B. Nope he’s running for the front. So our wannabe John Mclaine is now sending lead towards the only two people on board who can safely land the airplane (other than Frank in 16A who regularly flies MS Flight Sim), protected by thin sheet metal walls with giant plate glass windows in front that are not bulletproof.

          A bullet in an airframe at altitude that most airliners cruise at would be a major problem in seconds no minutes. And your not doing any controlled emergency descent in something like a 737 in 8 seconds or even 30 or 60. It will take minutes to get below 12,500, which is the important number for those of us who know.

          You want to carry a blaster on my airplane, you better be a air marshal or a FFDO not Earl from Nowheresville Texas who once saw die hard.

        6. avatar Joe R. says:

          NTSB quote starts with “IF” SOURCE – I read it in your post.

          Probable Cause

          The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause of this accident was incapacitation of the flight crewmembers as a result of their failure to receive supplemental oxygen following a loss of cabin pressurization, for undetermined reasons. https://www.ntsb.gov/Investigations/AccidentReports/Pages/AAB0001.aspx

          I’m a former CFII, and currently a Certified A&P Mechanic, with more than 3 years General Aviation and 5 years Commercial-Heavy experience, and have done 2 + years of contract work as a consultant providing Aircraft Records Airworthiness Assurance and Aircraft Maintenance Schedule continuity for Transport Aircraft sales transactions.

        7. avatar The Captain says:

          @joe R.
          So you’re saying in your professional opinion that someone shooting a hole in a commercial airplane at the flight levels that airliners typically fly isn’t that big a deal…….

          I sure hope you’re not working on anything I fly on.

        8. avatar Joe R. says:

          Well, El Capitain, if you skipped ‘reading in school, and only look at the pictures while someone reads to you, have them jump up to my first post above where I type, “Either way, it’s definitely not something to be poo-pooed or demoted to a ‘trifle’.”

          A shooting on a plane may or may not be a big deal, it would never amount to just “nothing”, and I don’t believe the fragility of the aircraft is necessarily a reason to ban firearms on planes. If the people that you surround yourself and yours with are imbued with Societal Agreement you’re safe even in dangerous places. If not, you aren’t safe anywhere. Every day you (likely) share a double yellow-lined road with people in opposing lane(s) who share your closing-speed of 80 – 100 + mph. You’re only safe there because you and the others choose to be. If you made it in to work today, you only did so because others let you. Don’t sweat the small stuff, while missing the big picture.

        9. avatar Geoff PR says:

          “Payne Stewart’s aircraft suffered from a failed cabin-pressurization system (NOT A HOLE).”

          Here’s the thing on the Stewart crash – The data recorders only recorded the last 30 min. of flight. When it failed to make its expected turn, the USAF had an F-16 scrambled to take a look at it. The cockpit glass *appeared* fogged over, and that would *imply* a sudden cabin depress.

          I would *really* like to think after a sudden cabin depress the crew would reflexively get on O2 and descend the aircraft, but we JUST DON’T KNOW what happened 2-3 hours earlier. It *might* have been they ‘assumed’ the cabin press. alarm was faulty and *ignored* it, and drifted off to sleep and died. Sweet ‘Final Destination’ dreams before they croaked.

          There were apparently issues with the PIC’s training records being falsified by the charter company. If there were shortcuts *there*, where else could ‘shortcuts’ have been taken?

          With the maintenance of the accident aircraft itself, perhaps?

          Were they in a habit of ignoring (“The damn thing is always doing that”) that pressure alarm?

          (And as I understand it, transport category aircraft windows are made of a very shatter-resistant plastic like ‘Lexan’. Perhaps ‘Myth Busters’ should rent a clapped-out pressurized airliner like a 707 and have the boys video what happens when a cabin window is shot out at altitude…)

        10. avatar uncommon_sense says:

          Middle aged tactical mall ninja,

          Apparently, you missed the MythBusters episode where they pressurized an entire aircraft cabin to the same pressure differential that a pressurized aircraft would experience at 30,000 feet. They shot holes in the fuselage. Guess what happened? Basically nothing. The cabin ever-so-slowly lost pressure. It was so gradual that it was hard to even register on analog pressure gauges.

          Whether or not shooting a window would be a problem depends on the window construction. If the window fails catastrophically, that would be bad. What evidence do you have that shooting an aircraft window causes a catastrophic failure?

          As for low cabin pressure dangers (regardless of cause), is there not an alarm in the cockpit that alerts the pilots when cabin pressure is getting dangerously low? If there is not, there should be.

        11. avatar Geoff PR says:

          “…aircraft windows are made of a very shatter-resistant plastic like ‘Lexan’.”

          Meaning, you’ll put a hole in it, but the whole thing won’t disintegrate and blow out in one go…

        12. avatar Geoff PR says:

          ” is there not an alarm in the cockpit that alerts the pilots when cabin pressure is getting dangerously low?”

          Yes, YES, oh, *YES*.

          Consider this – What if the alarm was *suspected* as being defective in the past and the pilots blew the alarm off, thinking it was acting up?

          I can think of a way to avoid that in the future, but the ‘Air Line Pilots Association’ (ALPA) and the union will pitch a screaming fit.

          A ‘Pilot Hypoxia Glove’.

          A nice leather flight glove with a ‘Pulse Ox’ sensor in the fingertip, wired into the aircraft with a plug and a *loud* alarm…

        13. avatar Alan Esworthy says:

          @Captain, the size of a bullet hole in the airframe would be a half inch or less. Do you know how big your cabin air outlet valve is? Even if you’ve got your air pack minimized to make your fuel economy numbers look good at performance review time, that outlet valve size is a fair amount larger than a half inch, right? And you could, if you wanted, pretty much close it, right?

          My qualifications: 100 hours in hang gliders and a voracious reading appetite.

        14. avatar jwm says:

          I think everybody in this thread has missed the important part.

          Joe R. says he works on commercial aircraft. * shudder* I ain’t never flying again.

        15. avatar Joe R. says:

          jwm-y

          Which means you don’t really do much flying anyway.

          https://youtu.be/nfWlot6h_JM

        16. avatar Joe R. says:

          Geoff PR

          “USAF had an F-16 scrambled to take a look at it. The cockpit glass *appeared* fogged over, and that would *imply* a sudden cabin depress.”

          public schools. Fear the USAF making a stupid. Simple physics folks. It would take a differential temperature to create ‘fogged over’ windows. If pressure was the SAME as the outside, the plane might still be able to make the internal temperature ‘warmer’ unless their was a big hole breach in the fuselage, then aircraft heating systems might fail to keep up – temperature would match the outside, and there would be no fogged windows. Fogged windows is what normally occurs on an aircraft “cockpit glass” and it stays that way until a pilot / co-pilot turns on the defrost. If you’ve suffered unconsciousness due to hypoxia, you don’t turn on the defrost.

  12. avatar Displacedmic says:

    As long as they don’t go totally crazy and let people take water and tweezers on there I’m fine with it

    1. avatar Joe R. says:

      Binary (or combined substance) explosives can be VERY dangerous. I don’t want them banning ‘water’ but it’s too difficult to control combinative substances than it is to just say don’t do it. 4 oz. don’t mean sh_t however, so I don’t know what the answer is. You could make a damn big bomb [explosion] if you had a 4 oz. bottles of glycerine and a teaspoon of Nitric Acid.

      tweezers? ok, I trust you.

  13. avatar Noishkel says:

    Well I’ll remind everyone that we’ve had armed air marshals on aircraft for decades with no real serious incidents. To suggest that increase the the number of armed people on a plan is automatically going to result in disaster is ludicrous on it’s face. I don’t know where that limit should be for arms on an aircraft. But it’s a lot further towards firearms freedom than the anti’s are going to like.

  14. avatar Rick the Bear says:

    Well, I wouldn’t be happy about it, but I would be willing to trade my 9mm P239 with Federal HSTs for my Model 36 with Glasers if I could carry. (I would, of course, have my P239 in my checked bag.)

  15. avatar Jonathan-Houston says:

    With bullet proof cockpits, I’d be ok with guns on plane, IF the same concealed carry rules apply as on the ground. No playing show and tell, no fooling around with it, no loading/unloading, no open carry.

    Just keep it in your holster on your person or in your bag for the duration you’re aboard. Anything else, except in self defense, and you’re booted at the next airport and ticketed. ONE negligent discharge and you’re banned from commercial flights for ten years, plus reparations.

  16. avatar GoD says:

    So many ignorant comments from people who have no knowledge of such things!

    And every anti-gunner thinks gun owners are all going to open up full auto with Mini-guns on a plane or with a 240 or a ma deuce like its some kind of stoopid video game……geeeesh…back away from the keyboards kids,,,

    If crazy liberals and Islamic’s would stop shooting people we would not have any problems.

  17. avatar Ralph says:

    Okay, I’ll go along with guns on airplanes as long as really, really fat people are not allowed to sit next to me.

    I think that’s fair.

  18. avatar Chip in Florida says:

    I see lots of talk about firearms on planes, terrorists, September 11th, and my favorite…. the TSA.

    Let me go on a tangent first….. “(Insert major media event involving a shooter here) happened because of easy access to firearms and we gotta do something!” You hear it every single time, easy access is part of the blame and if we could just make it harder to get one…. (feels!)

    Stop and think about this for a second……

    September 11th happened because of easy access to commercial airliners. We gotta do something to make it harder to get them so we can save lives!

    Enter the TSA!

    TSA, making it harder to get on an aircraft for everyone except the terrorists and criminals.

    Just like flying, we need a great big government run bureaucracy to make it harder to get guns so we can save lives!

  19. avatar Yellow Devil says:

    Pretty funny photo. Ironically, if there was a universal background check, that would be illegal.

  20. avatar Matty9 says:

    I wish MORE of the federal keystone cops would leave their glock in the men’s room. I’d love a free pistol. Finders keepers

  21. avatar Matty 9 says:

    That stewardess looks like a (slightly more) feminin version of Kim Jong Ill.

    I say, take that B17CH out now!!!

    1. avatar Joe R. says:

      For drinks and dinner, then the range. Maybe she’ll split the cost of some ammo with you.

  22. avatar Gregolas says:

    I would LOVE to fly with my sidearm! Everyone else is welcome to as well. As for doofuses (doofi?) having AD’s in the heads, just bulletproof those areas, walls, ceilings and floors.

  23. avatar Kyle says:

    I could care less about flying on a plane where u could carry a gun. Bombs? No. No bombs. Guns? sure.

  24. avatar Nanashi says:

    Jim Lucas for President!

  25. avatar Klaus Von Schmitto says:

    When I was 17 in 1978, I was on a Southern Airways DC-9 that decompressed at altitude from a ruptured main door seal. I happened to be sitting in the first row of the airplane, right next to the door. I could touch it. This happened between Atlanta and Nashville during a violent thunderstorm.
    It was extremely loud. The oxygen masks fell down (Well mine didn’t. The door opened and it didn’t fall down. I stared at it. The stew strapped in the jump seat a few feet away said “just pull it down hon”. I did and put it on)
    The pilot dove the plane down to breathing altitude and we landed with no issues.
    I am here so I didn’t get sucked out through a crack in the door.

  26. avatar Lurch says:

    Lot of posts here. Aren’t cockpit crews allowed to carry if they want to? Seem to remember that a couple of years ago after that Egypt Air flight went down when the Captain left the cockpit.

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