“Since its inception, the gun industry has been manufacturing loopholes to get guns and suppressors into as many hands as possible, regardless of how dangerous those hands might be. Literally the only thing workarounds like this accomplish is they make it easier for people we all agree shouldn’t have guns, much less sound suppressed ones, to get them.” – Brady Campaign co-president Kris Brown in No federal gun control for new silencer-muzzleloader [via cnn.com]

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89 Responses to IMI Systems Quote of the Day: Brady Campaign Highlights the Danger of Criminals With Black Powder Rifles

    • Maybe if they switch to black powder we’ll catch more of them. Just think Crips and Bloods in a skirmish line each packing a Brown Bess. Fire fights lasting hours.

        • Probably not. Gotta have something cover up the moans of the wounded and dying you know it would be funny to see a car with 26s pulling a 5 pounder cannon.

        • Guess that gun carriage with some monster subs attached and an electronic trigger plugged to one of those fancy bass triggered light controllers is the closest we’ll ever get to the dubstep gun from Saints Row in our lifetime.

  1. I find it hard to imagine that the inception, about 400 years ago on this continent, of the gun industry found it necessary to manufacture loopholes. Though there were prohibited persons per government fiat, usually natives.

    • Trading firearms with Indians was big business in early America. The main people prohibited from firearms early on were slaves, and there were even some limited exceptions to that rule. Some, probably not many, slave holders allowed their slaves firearms for hunting because it meant they didn’t have to provide as much food for them out of pocket.

      • Yes, slaves and free blacks were prohibited from owning firearms, but on the north east there were lots of laws against arming many of the native tribes.

      • Selling guns to the Indians was big business in the late 1800s as well. Learn about the weapons the Indians used in the Little Bighorn massacre.

  2. Yeah cause we all know Jaquan is just itchin to order him a Maxim50 so he can go regulate down on 5th street with his homies. So many black powder drive bys and we all know 99% of Chicago’s murders are done with Walker Colts.

    Get real lady! Thugs aren’t gonna use black powder because better options exist such as modern metallic cartridge guns with smokeless powder that are much MUCH easier to load, maintain, and fight with. Even the highest capacity black powder guns only hold 6 shots, why use that when you can get a Hi Point that holds 8 or more, reloads from a magazine, and won’t have percussion caps getting stuck in the cylinder? How many black powder guns are used in murders? I’m guessing less than 10.

    • So somebody esplain to me, por favor:

      If in most case the BATFE does not consider a black powder gun or pistol a firearm, as in they can be shipped to your directly, no NICS. As in even in Texas you can legally open carry a black powder revolver, is it still illegal for a convicted felon to be in possession of such a device?

      It’s either a gun or it ain’t.

      Note: On Second Amendment grounds I am entirely opposed to NICS and all other restrictions on possession and carry of firearms, even felons (who will carry anyway if they damn well please), the above is only a query on current legal status.

      • Straight from the ATF FAQ pdf.

        Can a person prohibited by law from possessing a firearm acquire and use a black powder
        muzzle loading firearm?
        The Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA) prohibits felons and certain other persons from possessing or
        receiving firearms and ammunition (“prohibited persons”). These categories can be found at 18
        U.S.C. § 922(g) and (n) in http://atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf.
        However, Federal law does not prohibit these persons from possessing or receiving an antique
        firearm. The term “antique firearm” means any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock,
        flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898. The
        definition includes any replica of an antique firearm if it is not designed or redesigned for using
        rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or uses rimfire or conventional centerfire
        ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States, and which is not readily available
        in ordinary channels of commercial trade. Further, any muzzle loading rifle, shotgun, or pistol which
        is designed to use black powder or black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition,
        is an “antique firearm” unless it (1) incorporates a firearm frame or receiver; (2) is a firearm which is
        converted into a muzzle loading weapon; or (3) is a muzzle loading weapon which can be readily
        converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination
        thereof. See 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(3), (a)(16).
        Thus, a muzzle loading weapon that meets the definition of an “antique firearm” is not a firearm and
        may lawfully be received and possessed by a prohibited person under the GCA.
        In addition, the GCA defines the term “ammunition” to mean “ammunition or cartridge cases,
        primers, bullets, or propellant powder designed for use in any firearm.” Because an “antique firearm”
        is not a “firearm,” it would is lawful for a prohibited person to receive or possess black powder
        designed for use in an “antique firearm.” Also, the Federal explosives laws do not make it unlawful
        for a prohibited person to acquire and possess black powder in quantities not exceeding fifty pounds
        if it is intended to be used solely for sporting, recreational, or cultural purposes in “antique firearms.”
        See 18 U.S.C. § 845(a)(5)
        By contrast, a prohibited person may not receive or possess black powder firearms that can be readily
        converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination
        thereof. ATF has classified certain muzzle loading models as firearms. All of these models
        incorporate the frame or receiver of a firearm that is capable of accepting barrels designed to fire
        conventional rimfire or centerfire fixed ammunition. These muzzle loading models do not meet the
        definition of “antique firearm” as that term is defined in 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(16), and are “firearms”
        as defined in 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(3). Furthermore, as firearms, these and similar models, regardless of
        the barrel installed on the firearm or provided with the firearm, are subject to all provisions of the
        GCA. Persons who purchase these firearms from licensed dealers are required to fill out a Firearms
        Transaction Record, ATF Form 4473, and are subject to a National Instant Criminal Background
        Check System (NICS) check. Felons and other prohibited persons may not lawfully receive or
        possess these firearms or ammunition.

        • Very informative. Thank you.

          So an actual firearm, a weapon that uses gunpowder and disbursed a projectile at high speed followed by a ball of fire, is NOT a firearm, but in many jurisdictions air rifles are considered firearms (not by the BATF). Very interesting. Waiting to see some drug thug standing on his corner with a brace of Colt Navies.

        • Very informative. Thank you.

          So an actual firearm, a weapon that uses gunpowder and disburses a projectile at high speed followed by a ball of fire, is NOT a firearm, but in many jurisdictions air rifles are considered firearms (not by the BATF). Very interesting. Waiting to see some drug thug standing on his corner with a brace of Colt Navies.

      • Just because black powder arms are not regulated by federal law does not mean that they are not subject to contrary to state laws. In California, for example, “antique firearms” are firearms for some purposes but not others; they are firearms for the purpose of prohibited persons, meaning felons cannot possess them. I assume the same is true in NHJ and other “ban” states.

        • In Kansas a bb gun if ii has a rifled barrel and shoots a bb 630 fps is a firearm for a felon. It seems a lot of confusing loopholes get a lot of confused people in trouble.

  3. Once again the anti gun set make liars of themselves. Ain’t they the ones always going on about 2a being meant to protect muzzle loaders, not msr’s?

    Now they’re trying to ban muzzle loaders.

    “Nobody wants to take your guns.” Biggest lie in human history.

  4. Oh, look, another cretin thinks that gangbangers are going to tote around four foot smoke poles and load them from loose powder just to make their shot marginally quieter… Can somebody explain to me how an enemy propaganda service like CNN is still allowed to broadcast inside the US? …and don’t give me that “free press” garbage, CNN is not a press organization, they are the propaganda arm of a domestic terrorist group. We didn’t give press passes to Goebels’ goons during WWII either.

    • Amazing that I independently posted a very similar comment down thread, but before ever reading any comments. It makes me hopeful that the truth, that these Liberal Terrorists™ are America’s truest and most dangerous enemies she’s ever faced, is finally being recognized. Hopefully we can stand shoulder to shoulder in a foxhole when the actual fighting begins.

    • Sad to say, Serge, but Goebbels and his goons have not faded away. Regrettably the U.S. IS the enemy propaganda outfit. Not the people(mostly) but certainly the state. Statists that they are…

      • Whatever you say commie. I’m sure the fake news industrial complex that was CAUGHT ON TAPE admitting that they didn’t care about the accuracy of their fear mongering is totally what the founding fathers had in mind when they thought of a free press.

  5. I don’t know how many there are,and I agree that they are likely far rarer than murders by felons using modern weapons.I bet they are much more common in rural areas and with white people than it is in the cities and among other ethnic groups. There have been several cases reported here on TTAG about felons killing people using replica percussion revolvers.

    • “There have been several cases reported here on TTAG about felons killing people using replica percussion revolvers.”

      I do a pretty good job reviewing pretty much every article on TTaG for the past five years. I cannot remember a single article about anyone using a replica percussion revolver to kill anyone. Unless you can provide citations to two or three of these “several casese reported here on TTaG”, I am going to label you a liar.

        • Weskyvet,

          While it could be sarcasm, it could also be a Bloomberg troll spreading false information.

          Pro-tip: if you post a sarcastic comment, clearly indicate that your comment is sarcastic with some sort of sarcasm tag!

        • Yes they should’ve/could’ve done that but sometimes you forget. Taking into account TTAG doesn’t cover too many black powder guns let alone crimes involving them (due to the use in crime being negligible and black powder guns being limited to mostly reproductions) one can conclude it is more than likely satire or sarcasm. Misinformation of that magnitude requires mental gymnastics I don’t think even the most rabid antigunner can pull off.

    • ” There have been several cases reported here on TTAG about felons killing people using replica percussion revolvers.” I could not find even one in my search. Hammers and baseball bats kill a lot of people every year , So it wouldn’t surprise me if it happens from time to time.

  6. Totally going to start making worldstar vids where I shamble in place to horrible “music” waving a muzzleloader around.

  7. If this is such a problem I’m sure the Brady Bunch won’t mind providing us with evidence of modern day criminals using blackpowder non-regulated firearms in their criminal enterprises. I’d love to see how Chicago and Baltimore street gangs are arming themselves with percussion cap revolvers ordered from Cabalas and shooting it out in their local neighborhoods.

  8. At least there is a lot more they can get wrong and blow the gun up in their faces. Given your average street thug is probably less than a firearms expert, I’m guessing a muzzle loader with loose powder is going to be a bigger danger to themselves than anyone else.

    • I was thinking the same thing.

      First of all, your typical street thug will have no idea how much powder to use or how to pack anything. Second, I can imagine many street thugs making the grave mistake of using modern smokeless propellant instead of black powder. For those of you who do not know, modern smokeless propellant is WAY more energetic than black powder and almost any significant amount of smokeless propellant poses a substantial risk of causing a replica revolver to explode in the user’s hand.

      • Actually that’s a great idea. If we can somehow get them to start getting black powder guns then we can start a Facebook campaign of disinformation….. like using smokeless powder or doing duplex loads. When we start seeing gang bangers with half a hand and one eye, we’ll know we’re making a difference.

      • Smokeless powder, which is progessive under pressure, is classified by our friends in the BATFE as a propellant. Black powder, the BATFE classifies as an EXPLOSIVE, and requires vendors to keep BP in a magazine at listed minimum distances (reference the orange book.) That is why black powder is no longer sold by most dealers. I remember when one could buy BP in hardware stores. I don’t recall ever hearing of any store going up in smoke because they stocked BP, have you? If, after all those years BP sat on store shelves without catastrophe, why did the government see fit to reclassify BP from a propellant to an explosive?

  9. To heck with that! I’ve gotta go read about how to tell when a slot machine is ready to pay off, then how a 7 time lotto winner reveals his secrets.

    • Naw…I thinking im going to click on the link featuring some of then gnarlist toe fugnus…Then like check out the funky health care fruit!

      • Indeed, this website really ought to be renamed The Truth About Toe Fungus. I usually try to avoid visiting during mealtimes . . .

  10. “No federal gun control for new silencer-muzzleloader” [via FAKE_NEWS.com]

    there, fixed it.

    Ban tyrannical communists in the MSM.

  11. “There’s a new firearm on the market with an attached silencer that is not covered by federal gun control laws because it’s not considered a gun and it’s not considered a silencer.”. Literally the first sentence is all the fake news one needs to read to understand how the Liberal Terrorists™ manipulate and obfuscate the facts. And of course, the vermin at CNN don’t have a comment section so they can continue to spew their vile, Marxist propaganda unopposed. This abject hatred you see in my comments? Yeah, Barack Hussein Al Bin Obama built that.

  12. Since its inception, the gun industry has been manufacturing loopholes to get guns and suppressors into as many hands as possible, regardless of how dangerous those hands might be.

    Why is the public’s hands dangerous? We the people – are now dangerous and need to be regulated by the government?

    • “Why is the public’s hands dangerous? We the people – are now dangerous and need to be regulated by the government?”

      That is EXACTLY how Progressives view We the People. Progressives know that a large chunk of the population (anywhere from 35% to 65%) will never embrace their Almighty Benevolent Government utopia: so Progressives want the means to force that large chunk of the population to submit to their utopia fantasy.

      And some people wonder why Progressives are so cozy with Muslims? They both want to force everyone else to submit (by violent force if necessary) to their utopia fantasy.

  13. “Since its inception, the gun industry has been manufacturing loopholes to get guns and suppressors into as many hands as possible, regardless of how dangerous those hands might be.”

    Well, at the least I’ll give ’em credit for publicizing how they intend to destroy the 2A.

    I recall something about advise on how tyrants should be dealt with…

    EDIT – BREAKING – Just on the news, Rep. Steve Scalise has returned to the floor of the House to a standing ovation, for the first time since a Leftist tried to assassinate him and other Republicans.

    “Scalise entered the House chamber on crutches to a roar of bipartisan applause, embraced several of his colleagues, and delivered his first floor remarks since the June 14 shooting.”

    And what a coincidence!

    *Just* in time to join the debate on the SHARE act!

    *snicker* 🙂

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/wp/2017/09/28/they-put-me-back-together-again-rep-scalise-breaks-his-silence-15-weeks-after-shooting/

  14. I knew the antis would go here. I would love to have a seat at the table at Silencerco just to take part in the laughter – this is an epic troll of the antis.

    I’ve been saving my pennies for a ‘firearm to be named later’. It may have to be a Maxim 50 now.

  15. The next thing we know, the street gangs will have pointy sticks! Just think of how many eyes they could put out! Why, there ought to be a law!
    They are Hitlers! Here’s a picture of a fetus. Do it for the children!

  16. Of course she lays the blame for “manufacturing loopholes” on the gun industry. “Loopholes” are unintentional gaps in the law that are exploited to do activities that might have been prohibited if the gap didn’t exist. They are “manufactured” by sloppy legislation, and the .gov is expert at writing poor laws.

    The black powder “loophole” is intentional, not a loophole at all. I wish these drones could get their supposed facts straight.

  17. Pirates used black powder weapons. She has a point; should criminals like Blackbeard, Henry Morgan, and Calico Jack have these weapons? I think not.

  18. I’m sure there are lot of highwaymen and pirates out there who would love to get their hands on silencers for their flintlocks. Fear not, the Brady Bunch will end them rightly with more gun control!

  19. With a criminal mindset (cost-benefit analysis abilities), I’m pretty sure I could build criminals something much more suited to their needs for a $1,000 a pop. I mean, a Ghost Gunner 2 is only $1,500. If you have any skills at computer programming or machining, I’d guess it be real easy to build machine guns.

    I haven’t looked into it because an NFA amnesty registration hasn’t been announced (now if that happened, Trump would be a 2A champion).

  20. I dunno, folks. Any Crips/Bloods shoot-out worthy of the title is going to generate an awful lot of smoke, thereby increasing the possibility of “friendly-fire” incidents. I hope the suppressors work well enough so that the participants will be able to hear “Yay, Crips!” or “You go, Bloods!” as the participants cheer their “team” on. Oh, and all shoot-outs will be preceded by the National Anthem, during which the participants will be required to observe proper protocol.

  21. The Brady bunch, having vented its spleet against all forms of firearms use, now goes after black powder rifles with a suppressor. It is really trying to justify its existence by scraping the bottom of the barrel! I’ve got to admit being a traditionalist when it comes to black powder firearms (flint longrifles, caplock shotguns, cap-and-ball revolvers) and don’t much care for the modern crop of in-lines with modern scopes, etc. But if this new rifle is an ATF-designated non-firearm and its suppressor is a non-suppressor, what’s the big deal? I suppose the Brady organization will panic some ignorant hoplophobic snowflakes with this crap, but somehow I doubt if we’ll see one of these suppressed rifles being used at a 7-11 stickup anytime soon.

    • While it would be hilarious I don’t think we’ll ever see it. Too much work involved and some prosecutor would bump a charge to premeditated murder. Rightly so too just look at how long it takes to load one before you shoot. You really gotta want someone dead to load a black powder gun and shoot someone with it.

  22. We should outlaw Smoke Suppressed Powder! The same as Sound Suppressed Guns! Only firearms that belch huge clouds of smoke and make loud noises allowed in the hands of those we trust, like the POPO and Federal Storm Troopers!

  23. I find it hard to believe this person has any idea of what the thinking was at the inception of the gun industry. I had no idea there was someone that old living today.

  24. “Since its inception, the gun-control industry has been manufacturing restrictions on the right, interest and common practice of peaceful people, as broad and vague as possible, regardless of the misrepresentations required.”

    “Literally, the only thing that gets them more wound-up than citizens having rights at all, is aspects of the existing right to self-defense they haven’t yet eroded.”

  25. “Since its inception, the gun industry has been manufacturing loopholes to get guns and suppressors into as many hands as possible, regardless of how dangerous those hands might be.”

    Since its inception how many hundred years ago? Back when there were NO regulations of firearms, and people were entitled to return of their arms upon release from prison? That gun industry? Uh huh uh huh, I see that you are no student of even relatively recent history….In fact, unless I miss my guess, the prohibition of the possession of arms by felons goes back less than a hundred years. And as you note, the federal government has NEVER regulated black powder firearms, so how is that it is the INDUSTRY that is “manufacturing loopholes”?

    I’m sorry, the Brady commentary is utterly ridiculous. No, that’s too kind…plain stupid is more like it.

  26. Interesting in that antigunners always say that the 2A should only apply to the weapons that were available at the time the 2A was adapted and now they are trying to ban them as well.

  27. The Constitution is not a loop hole. Any law that limits carry or ownership is illegal. The fact that any of these are still on the books and are not being challenged (some are) is a shame. The fact that there is a definition of “Assault Rifle” on the books of many states is a shame. If you haven’t seen the new definition of assault rifle. it is any weapon that can fire 10-rounds in a minute including pistols. So says Miss Shannon W. Laugh but, the MA AG rewrote the MA definition to include any semi-auto rifle that looks scary (AR type). No longer on the shelves here. Debate their ‘stupidity’ all day long. They know full well what they are doing.

  28. “But, the 2nd amendment was written in the time of muzzleloaders and muskets and does not apply to today’s weapons!” Says the gun control advocate.

    Subsequently wants to ban a muzzleloader.

  29. A suppressor on a black powder rife or handgun. Good for one shot per hour unless they invent a self-cleaning baffle system. Maybe a water flushing system?
    It would look like a paintball gun except the hopper would hold soapy water and be plumbed into the suppressor.

  30. Has ANY criminal used a black-powder gun of any kind in a crime? The FBI should have figures on that; and I have no doubt that zero incidents will be found involving black-powder weapons. The Brady Campaign is tilting at windmills.

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