“Besides, in a country with an estimated 350 million guns, the chances that toddlers and other children happen upon loaded weapons have become statistically inevitable. Tough laws can’t negate the tragic probabilities. Of course, smart guns with computer chips ensuring that only the owner can pull the trigger would help. But such technologies are fervently opposed by the gun culture. Gun-rights absolutists, rather than surrender even a smidgen of infringement, would rather the U.S. maintain a gun homicide rate on par with the Democratic Republic of Congo.” – Fred Grimm in Floridians oblivious to an epidemic of accidental child shootings [via miamiherald.com]

173 Responses to Quote of the Day: Gun Owners Would Rather People Die Than Buy Smart Guns

  1. Lies, false dichotomies, ad hominem attacks … Worst of all, statistics! And without actual numbers!

  2. Fred should put his money where his mouth is and invest in smart gun research. But as usual, Progressives are only good at using other people’s money on delusional ideas… Which epidemic is more dangerous?

    Oh, and last I checked, the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea, er Congo, has a much higher murder and rape rate… thankfully people can’t defend themselves.

  3. Most child killings are merely Darwin-In-Action.
    If the parents are stupid enough to allow their childs to have access to guns, then humanity is better off with fewer of those genes in the pool.
    Intelligent, well trained and obedient children excepted, of course.

  4. Would he tolerate a ‘smidgen of infringement’ on his First Amendment rights?

    Here’s an idea; hold firearms safety classes in elementary schools the same way we had to sit through DARE. Instead of “Just Say No.” it can be “Don’t Pull The Trigger.”

  5. The Congo?
    Who keeps stats in a 4th world hole…
    Oh, time to go listen to Sonny Landreth, Congo Square.
    Because I don’t give a squat what Mr. Grimm has to say, but Sonny’s 4/4 beat matches my treadmill speed and is much more pleasant.

  6. Besides, in a country with an estimated 350 million guns, the chances that toddlers and other children happen upon loaded weapons have become statistically inevitable.

    I don’t think inevitable means what he thinks it means.

    Do we need to pull out the CDC data, yet again? 350 million guns, owned by some 100 million people, and fewer than 100 children (i.e. below age 14) killed accidentally due to firearms discharges.

    • That’s actually the one part I wouldn’t quibble about. I actually would agree that a kid killing himself with a poorly stored firearm IS inevitable at some point. But so is a kid drowning in a pool unsupervised, or falling off the jungle gym (wait do kids still do that?) and bashing his head on pavement.

      Bad shit happens sometimes, take precautions when possible to minimize their occurrence and understand that no matter how much you want to control everything around you that you’re essentially impotent and subject to the whims of bad luck, A.K.A. life.

    • But remember, Chip, if *I* want it to happen, and it would save just one life, then it should be forced on you, using taxpayer (your) money, even if it costs millions of lives to accomplish that. That is how important I think I am. See now?

  7. Lets break this down a bit:

    1)He admitted that laws are not a method of prevention. A refreshing level of honesty, even if he’s too dumb to realize its implications.
    2)Actual child deaths with firearms are extremely minor in quantity. I could make the swimming pool argument here.
    3)With exception to idiots like NJ and their poison pill law, I think a lot of gun owners would be willing to let the market decide. I think it would decided against smart guns however. Don’t blame the pro gun people for stifling the market. Now that this is even a concept it has likely ruined the idea of letting the market decide.
    4)Actually the Congo is about 3X of the united states in terms of homicide rates. I’m willing to bet that the average citizen there has little in the way of defending themselves and are at the mercy of whatever militias and despots come by. As Cenk would say “google it.”
    5)Don’t conflate the issue of accidental toddler deaths with homicides and suicides of teenagers and adults. One requires safe handling and storage practices to negate, the other requires the justice system and medical help to negate.

  8. His assertion is a logical fallacy known as a “False Dichotomy.”

    Edit… I see someone already pointed that out (1st comment). 🙂

  9. Interesting that he compares the US to a country with strict gun laws that aren’t working. Sort of like comparing California with its myriad of gun laws to Texas. And those states had the same homicide rate in 2015 according to the FBI.

    • Congo = 1/4 the land area of the U.S. and less than 1/4 the population of the U.S. Congo is in a quasi civil war that just lately took a turd for the worse with the inclusion of ISIS wanna-be yahoos.

  10. When I look at the market for gun safes, gun locks, and gun lockers I wonder how people like this wake up in the morning and managed to put their socks on correctly.

    The vast majority of gun owners are very concerned about keeping their guns away from unauthorized access whether it be from children or from burglars. Otherwise the market for gun safes, locks, and lockers would be nonexistent.

  11. Lots and lots of words.

    One truth buried in there (probably unintentional): “Tough laws can’t negate the tragic probabilities.”

    But the money shot is all lie through and through: “…technologies are fervently opposed by the gun culture.”

    I’d hazard that very few in the gun culture actually oppose new technology – even smart gun technology. It’s government mandating technology, under pain of fine or imprisonment, that is opposed by the gun culture.

    I say bring on smart guns. But, keep the government out of it and let the market decide.

  12. But such technologies are fervently opposed by the gun culture.

    Because stupid cunts like you want to make them mandatory.

  13. Gun Owners Would Rather gun grabbers get beaten half to death twice a week with a wet flip-flop than Buy Smart Guns.

    There, fic’d it.

    • In the alternative:

      Gun Owners Would be happy to do civil war with communist gun grabbers from FL [ANY FING DAY, SAY WHEN B1T<H] than Buy Smart Guns.

  14. We know the control-commies are after our guns, and their bagina hurtz when they can’t do tyranny at will.

  15. Our “gun violence” problem would be significantly reduced without the domestic Congolese cohort we currently have. If it saves one life…

  16. Pro-2A folks know this is all fabricated propaganda, but it was not written for us, it was written for the anti-2A crowd that doesn’t look at facts. It is only interested in feelings, and nothing hits the heartstrings like “child death.” Unfortunately, if garbage like this is thrown at the public over and over again it works. Don’t get me wrong, child deaths due to careless untrained adults is terrible, but what is more terrible is the much larger number of deaths and mayhem that would occur if everyone was deprived of the opportunity to defend themselves with guns.

    • Well said. When people like Mr. Grimm agree that the staff and teachers at schools should all be armed — with smart guns, of course — then I’ll agree that all gun owners should buy smart guns. (Key word: should. Not must.)

  17. “….the chances that toddlers and other children happen upon loaded weapons have become statistically inevitable.”

    Hmmmmm I thought we fixed this problem with on-demand, 3rd trimester abortions?

  18. Yep. He’s right. No more infringement for me.

    Now, if the cops want to try these guns out, they should have at it!

  19. Why is it with these guys that everything they disapprove of is an “epidemic”?

    They keep using that word. I do not think that word means what they think it means.

      • If the deaths were intentional it would be murder. I think the most that could be claimed would be negligent homicide, possibly even manslaughter.

  20. Actually- I would rather see those that attempt ANY INFRINGEMENT AT ALL, be the ones to die. Preferably by firing squad. And yes, I’m serious.

  21. This guy must have started the article by making a list of what he wanted to lie-about, distort, fabricate and be sure to ignore.

    “But I don’t want to mislead you. Our gun culture doesn’t just take a toll on women and children. The American Journal of Medicine report notes that “Americans overall are 10 times more likely to die as a result of a firearm compared with residents of these other high-income countries.” In a gun-berserk society, kids are just so much collateral damage.”

    Oh, you don’t want to mislead the reader? Well…then…”Nevermind.”

  22. This man seems particularly educated on the subject and I would like to subscribe to his newsletter.

  23. I won’t buy one. Nothing against the technology, just not what I want. However, it may convince someone who otherwise wouldn’t buy a firearm to make the jump. Let the market decide. Leave government out of it.

  24. Posts disappearing at an alarming rate. TTAG taken over by communist sympathizers?

    FREE THE BOUND PERIODICALS !!!

  25. Didn’t some hacker prove that it’s relatively easy to hack into any smart gun?

    So basically anyone with a computer (13 y/o kids included) and determination can use it against the owners wishes

      • I wish your friend would’ve kept his mouth shut. Of course, I’m sure his ego couldn’t resist being the “first” to defeat it. But it would’ve been much more effective to wait until the 10’s of millions of dollars was raised to actually get these into production. After a factory was built, machines purchased and money poured into this project would’ve been the time to release this info and destroy the feasibility of their product. It will only take one massive bankruptcy to convince these Liberal Terrorists™ that smart gun technology is a losing proposition. Now, before too much is lost, they’ll get an opportunity to go back to the drawing board with nothing more than bruised egos and a loss of time.

      • “Never tell a Rose-Hulman engineer that something can’t be done.”

        Pretty much most engineers worth their salt. 😉

        He brings up an *excellent* point, that jamming it *from* functioning is also easy, and potentially *lethal* to the holder of a smart gun expecting it to function…

  26. I guess he just totally missed the whole defeated with a couple of magnets thing.
    But, sure, I’d rather people die. About 7,399,999,998 people to be exact.

  27. Oh boy, allow me to thoroughly fisk Mr. Grimm’s statement:

    … in a country with an estimated 350 million guns, the chances that toddlers and other children happen upon loaded weapons have become statistically inevitable.

    Something on the order of 20 toddlers/children will find a loaded firearm and accidentally kill themselves or a sibling this year. Substantially more toddlers/children will drown in buckets/pools this year. We can mandate “smart” guns after we mandate “smart” buckets and pools.

    Tough laws can’t negate the tragic probabilities.

    Like the probability that a violent thug will attack you and you will NEED an effective firearm to absolutely minimize your injuries and losses? Like the probability that bad actors will exploit vulnerabilities in “smart” guns and render them inoperable?

    But [“smart” gun] technologies are fervently opposed by the gun culture.

    People who have the slightest bit of imagination and/or technical background recognize multiple MAJOR vulnerabilities that are inseparable from “smart” technologies. Those major vulnerabilities mean “smart” guns will be unreliable: which is REALLY BAD when your life depends on something working. Thus, gun culture does not oppose the idea of a “smart” gun: gun culture opposes the unreliability that is inherent in “smart” guns.

    Gun-rights absolutists, rather than surrender even a smidgen of infringement, would rather the U.S. maintain a gun homicide rate on par with the Democratic Republic of Congo.

    Talk about the mother of all fallacies! First of all, “smart” guns do not prevent violent criminals from using their own “smart” gun to murder someone! Second, “smart” guns do not stop a violent criminal from using alternate weapons to murder someone. Third, violent criminals can easily remove the “smart” mechanism from a firearm and use it to murder someone. In other words “smart” guns will NOT reduce the murder rate in the United States. We need look no further than gun control paradises like Mexico or South Africa to see significantly higher murder rates than the U.S. in spite of various gun control approaches.

    All murders and accidental deaths are tragic and horrible. Of course we should try to identify root causes and apply our limited resources in the most efficient way possible to minimize murders and accidents. And the root cause of 99.99999% of all deaths that involve a firearm are human problems, not technology problems. That is where we should focus our efforts.

    • Pools, can’t help you. Darwin’s playground.

      5-gallon buckets? Piece of cake. Make them slightly cone-shaped, narrower at the base. The top opening of your average 5 gallon bucket is 12 inches. make the base 9 inches. This should be stable enough for use by your average competency adult but any child tall enough to reach inside will inevitably tip the bucket over. Puppies and kittens, not so much.

  28. His same statistics 2015 CDC show accidental suffocation, drowning and car accidents as far more numerous. I had to span the range up to 15 years of age. Different causes for each age. But as they get past toddler age I’d forbid kids in cars!

    He’s picking and choosing.

    I may sound “conservative” but take care of your own children. Realize as a parent that we all get hurt and we all die sooner or later. Keep you people safe because that’s what you do not because you’re afraid of feeling grief if you lose someone. Doubt that? Listen to people. They say, “I would feel terrible if something happened to my child.” Really? When was this about how you’d feel?

    This attitude makes you hyper vigilant and less safe.

  29. I’m guessing this guy would not accept ‘smart’ cars that limit speeds to 25 mph or less. He would rather children continue to die in auto accidents.

  30. If someone wants to make these things and sell them on the open market, I have no problem with that. Free people make their own choices, and live with the consequences. The real problem with this “smart gun” thing is that the “control” people have zero interest in actual safety, and this is simply another ploy to make gun ownership and use so difficult, expensive and socially unacceptable that nobody, anywhere has guns except maybe the police and the armed guards for the elite “rulers.”

    Oh, and the criminals of all kinds, naturally. How did you plan to replace the guns they already have with your “smart” stuff? Or their knives, clubs, matches and acid?

    Not a chance the people of the gun will go along with that.

    But anyway, Fred… what are you going to do about automobiles, swimming pools and five gallon buckets?

  31. Clearly, all us gun owners just want babies to die because we don’t support gun control… little, doe eyed, joyful, fat, cuddly lil’ babies… we want them all dead in a ditch, rotting whilst rabies infected coyotes pick at their carcasses… These anti’s are just worried about the children.

    Hey, what about abortions?

    Hang on, that’s a woman right!

    Yeah, I though so…

  32. As usual, these guys can’t math. By pointing out the number of guns in the country this guy undermines his entire argument. Sure, lots of guns means lots of opportunity for accidents with guns but, apparently, gun owners already know this and are extremely careful with their guns. If just 1% of the guns in the country were involved in accidental death each year, then there would be 3,500,000 (using his numbers) accidental deaths annually. 1/100th of 1% would be 35000 annual accidental firearms related deaths. In reality, however, the number of accidental deaths from firearms is less than 3500 (quite a bit less) each year meaning that less than 1/1000th of 1% of the guns in the country are involved in accidental death. So, how does another law make something that is already almost nonexistent less likely?

  33. “Gun Owners Would Rather People Die Than Buy Smart Guns”

    Not true…it’s not just any “people”; just people named Fred Grimm who write for the Miami Herald.

  34. Depending on whose stats you use, it’s about 75-200 accidental deaths of children per year involving guns in the U.S. I don’t think “epidemic” is the word you’re looking for, Champ.

    Annually, 40 kids die accidentally by drowning in buckets. Is that an epidemic, too? Do we need government-mandated “smart buckets”?

    The only “epidemic” we’re facing is the epidemic of irresponsible idiots crapping out kids they don’t know how to raise.

  35. I just want to be sure my gun goes bang if I ever need to pull the trigger. Of course, there are no guarantees in life, but I have a much better chance of it going bang if it hasn’t been messed with. I disabled the FPR on my phone because it only worked about 30% of the time and I was tired of swiping half a dozen times when I needed to unlock it. I’m tired of snarky know-it-alls lying to my face to try and invoke emotion. I’m also tired of hearing abortion brought into every argument as though it is a valid counterpoint to anyone who uses the “for the children” argument to try and strip my freedoms. It is NOT a valid counterpoint. Trying to use your religious beliefs as justification for basically forcing women to be brood mares is as offensive to my idea of freedom as is someone trying to take away my gun rights “for the children.” A woman having an abortion no more infringes upon your freedom than does you or I owning a gun infringe upon the author’s freedom. Everyone here claims to believe in personal responsibility. So if you believe that abortion is a sin, and you believe that God gave us free will, then shut the hell up and let God sort it out.

    • And I’m tired of hearing how abortion is a right when the very verbiage used to defend it as such was NEVER meant to be so distorted as to include guaranteeing happiness and abortion. IT DOES NOT! If anything, it isn’t explicitly mentioned so it’s up to the States, it the people, to say. It’s the murder of a human. Yeah punch your “brood mares” and do the killing and it is considered murder. If a Dr does it under a procedure called an abortion…. well momxs right supercedes the rights of the inborn and it isn’t murder.

      Now, back on subject. I want my gun to fire when it’s supposed to too. I don’t want some mechanism involved that can be overridden that causes the gun to be more expensive and not do it’s job. I don’t want a gun that someone can shut off on me either.

      • He didn’t say abortion was a right (which could be argued), he said what someone else does about it is none of your business, which cannot be argued.

        • Wow, thanks Larry. Thumbs up.

          We could have a whole separate discussion about how just because something wasn’t enumerated as a right 240 years ago that doesn’t mean it isn’t a right today. But we don’t need to have that discussion, because the latter is not the same as the former. These guys who feel compelled to bring their religious beliefs into every conversation just don’t understand that they’re driving away people who might otherwise support the cause. We have a majority support for at least some form of gun rights in this country, just as we have a majority support for some form of abortion rights. Let’s not drive people towards the anti-gun camp because we can’t stop thumping the pro-life bible.

        • Opposition to abortion has literally zero to do with religious belifs. It is based on uncontroversial, inarguable, biological and genetic fact. Abortion takes the life of a living human being that is genetically and physiologically distinct from either of its parents.

    • Moron. Infanticide and murder is not a religious issue. Moral issue yes. Redline defining a civilized society (vs barbaric) yes.

        • Good question. In the age of “free” birth control mandated for the last 7 years, why are there still abortions outside of the rape, incest and the life of the mother considerations?

          Also how can you consider pursuit of happiness as a justification for abortion, but ignore the previous part including LIFE and LIBERTY?

          Seems like the baby who gets aborted is having his right to life infringed far more than the woman who failed to use “free” birth control.

          Also, HELL NO to a 22lr smartgun instead of my Beretta.

        • Some fathers don’t allow their 12-year-old daughters to use birth control while raping them. What a truly ignorant question. And what business is it of yours?

    • Thank you Cjstl! It’s nice to hear someone else say it! It’s really hard to want to group oneself in with a lot of the gun owners on here when they insist on shoving their holier than thou religious garbage down everyone’s throat every chance they get. You can talk about guns without thumping a damn bible every time.

    • Chip, I understand you feel that way, but people either don’t care or flat out disagree with you. According to a Pew Research poll from earlier this year, 59% of Americans believe abortion should be legal. A much more conservative Gallup poll from last year showed that while there is about an even split on whether or not abortion is morally wrong, only 19% support outlawing all abortions.

      In either case, support for overturning Roe v Wade just isn’t there. A majority of Americans believe it is settled law, some 40+% vehemently so. Pro-Life is a losing issue. Gun rights is a winning issue. Chaining one to the other muddies the waters unnecessarily.

      If you don’t believe me, you need only look at the US Senate race in Missouri five years ago. Claire McCaskill was on the ropes right up until Todd Akin came out and said very few women get pregnant from “legitimate” rape. Akin honestly believed that God would intervene and prevent a woman from becoming pregnant if she was actually raped. And he was slaughtered in the election, his political career ended. As red as Missouri has become, it won’t take much to unseat McCaskill next year. I’m hoping Austin Petersen will be the one to do it, but in promoting him to friends and family, I’m already encountering opposition because his moderate views on abortion lean to the Pro-Life side. It is a galvanizing issue, especially among women. Even though Austin is a true Libertarian and staunch ally of the People of the Gun, running as a Republican and supporting banning abortions after 20 weeks except in cases of rape, incest, or life of the mother concerns is still going to cost him moderate votes. Again, Pro-Life is a LOSING ISSUE.

      I’m not here to argue the morality of abortion. I’m just trying to make everyone see that by constantly drawing parallels between aborted fetuses and accidental child shootings, all you’re doing is getting a nod of agreement from people who already share your ALL of your beliefs, while very likely driving a wedge between yourself and people who may share SOME of your beliefs.

      Please don’t chase away the moderate Pro-Gun voters!

  36. Where are the comments going????

    A while ago the comment counter read 31 and there were only six displayed. Now the counter is showing 51 but I can see only one. Only seems to be affecting this thread.

    Is my browner messed up?

  37. TTAG removed them all cause they opposed Mr. Grimm view. Didn’t you hear, TTAG is part of NYT and WaPo now.

    JUST KIDDING!!!! I hope they didn’t sell out 🙁

  38. The irony is lost on these facist . How the murder/abortion kill babies and its the womens choice . Yet the possiblity! of a child dying from a firearm is not okay. Then they want to take away my choice.

  39. Drowning is the leading cause of deaths among children aged 1-4. However, rather than focus intently upon commonsense swimming pool and bathtub control, Fred Grimm works to redirect the public’s attention to firearms.

  40. WTF is Fred Grimm and why is he lecturing on his 2nd grade math/statistics education?

    “chances that toddlers and other children happen upon loaded weapons have become statistically inevitable” What a moron. “inevitable”? Ass

  41. TO TTAG –

    IF YOU’RE BEING HELD HOSTAGE, START YOUR NEXT OP WITH THE WORD “I” AND WE’LL TAKE IT FROM THERE.

    Remember, keep your eyes closed, hands over ears and you mouth open slightly to even the pressure of the flash-bangs.

  42. THE TRUTH ABOUT GUNS – Exploring the ethics, morality, business, P O L I T I C S, culture, technology, practice, strategy, dangers and fun of guns.

    EXCEPT WHEN WE GET SOME LIBERAL FLAKES PARSING OUR COMMENTERS.

  43. I know uncommon had a good fisking. Here is mine:

    Besides, in a country with an estimated 350 million guns, the chances that toddlers and other children happen upon loaded weapons have become statistically inevitable.

    In a country full of pharmaceuticals, swimming pools, staircases, household chemicals, and sharp objects, the chances that toddlers and other children happen upon them have become statistically inevitable. So as with anything, parents must teach and protect their children. And it is nonsensical to try to regulate objects that could be dangerous to toddlers and children when there are so many.

    https://www.cdc.Gov/injury/images/lc-charts/leading_causes_of_injury_deaths_unintentional_injury_2015_1050w760h.gif

    There were 50 deaths (toddlers) in the entirely of the United States in the year of 2015 as a result of irresponsible parents allowing their toddler’s access to firearms. 50 – out of the 321,000,000 people. The problem isn’t firearms. Because millions of people used firearms successfully in preparing for their defense or for whatever purpose, and only the parents of 50 screwed it up. So the problem is irresponsible parents – not firearms. Irresponsible parents can and do also leave other dangerous and deadly items and materials around with their toddler’s having access to them. The degrees of irresponsibility vary with parental intelligence, education, and experience and is not black and white. There is no dichotomy between responsible parents and irresponsible parents, there is an infinite shade of gray between them. So trying to regulate or even identifying the “responsibleness” of parents is not worth our time. Further, we shouldn’t ban items and materials, because of irresponsible people or criminal misuse. So that item is pretty much not worth our time either.

    Tough laws can’t negate the tragic probabilities.

    And tough laws inspire resentment in the extreme vast majority (>99.99%) of the population that must suffer for the irresponsibility of the extreme few, which will result in conflict. Moreover, we are not a collective with collective responsibilities. We are individuals with individual responsibilities. This is because we exist on an individual level. Our existence through our eyes and our senses are exclusive to ONE individual, and thus, we must be judged individually, and the responsible man is not responsible for the criminal or the lax irresponsibles.

    Of course, smart guns with computer chips ensuring that only the owner can pull the trigger would help.

    It would help only if they negated their parental responsibility to educate their children of dangers and to help protect them from dangers in the home. Having a gun in a lock box isn’t much different than having a smart gun. However, some people don’t have children and prefer to have their firearm more readily available. Some of them live in dangerous neighborhoods. If they want to have a smart gun, I have no problem with them having it. But it should not be mandated, because the individual knows his situation, his environment, his experience, and his preferences much better than any government mandates.

    But such technologies are fervently opposed by the gun culture.

    Lets also not ignore the fact that the gun industry leveraged it’s weight against smart guns, because they were mandated by law in NJ. It is misinforming to ignore that fact. Some people don’t want a smart gun and they should be able to own, carry, and stow the firearm they they prefer as they see fit based on their circumstances that, again, circumstances that they know better than the US government. The fight against smart guns wasn’t for the sake of smart guns, it was for the right to choose.

    Gun-rights absolutists, rather than surrender even a smidgen of infringement, would rather the U.S. maintain a gun homicide rate on par with the Democratic Republic of Congo.

    Extremely lame argument, and a typical leftist one. It says, you are a bad person so I am right. And it’s ridiculous. Firstly, there is no data for the republic of congo. Show me the data. Secondly, the vast majority of death (by firearms) is a result of gang warfare in democrat party controlled cities in the US. Vermont, with virtually no gun laws, has the first or second lowest homicide rate (with guns) than any other place in the US. Guns aren’t the problem. Gun laws aren’t the solution. Smart guns aren’t the solution.

  44. It’s hard & complicated to make them go “bang”, up to that last step. Effectively, guns already have “childproof caps.”

    Here’s a thought: don’t do the prep steps, until it’s time. I have yet to see a toddler who could rack a 1911. Problem solved.

  45. 52 toddlers shot someone in both 2016 and 2015. To me, that means that 100 parents, per year, were too stupid to own a gun. Of course, breeding…..

  46. Ummmm…. smart gun would imply the gun is intelligent. Now granted they are indeed more ntelligent than most liberals, but thats not saying much.
    And i do not want anyone to have the ability to turn off or block the rfid. Which is actually easy to do.
    Also adds complexity.

  47. My answer to Mr. Grimm is this: Sandy Hook. Where were all the anti-gun ninnies when a maladapted sh!tstain murdered 26 innocent people?

    “Tough laws can’t negate the tragic probabilities,” you say. Sometimes tough laws create their own tragic probabilities.

    Thanks to your “tough laws,” all the adults could do at Sandy Hook was watch their children die. At least two of the teachers there were willing to fight, even against impossible odds, but anti-gun laws ensured that they wouldn’t succeed.

    Children hiding under their desks, crying for someone to save them — and no one could.

    Connecticut already had most of the restrictions the anti-gun crowd wants, and the Sandy Hook massacre happened there anyway. It’s worth noting that one of these “smart” guns wouldn’t have prevented that atrocity, either. The murderer killed his mother to get her guns — and he could have slipped the RFID wristband on and done his damage with a so-called smart gun just as easily.

    Your tough laws couldn’t negate those tragic possibilities…and they never will.

    I can only come to the conclusion that the anti-gun agenda prefers dead children over free adults. Tell me, how many more children are you willing to sacrifice in pursuit of your no-guns-anywhere agenda, Mr. Grimm?

  48. The whole “protect the consumer from his own stupidity” is an attempt to transfer responsibility away from the individual end user and fasten it upon the manufacturer. Down with personal responsibility!

  49. “rather than surrender even a smidgen of infringement”

    Well you said it, Bro. Not me. Obey or change the law of the land. Good luck with the second one.

    If you want to solve violent crime check the inner cities of stupidly large metro areas. I got not problems where I’m at.

  50. Yes, i would rather have people die than having smart guns. Not having smart guns absolutely means oeople die – the right kind of people though. Everytime a police officer pulls the trigger he doesn’t have to worry about some electrical crap, the gun just goes boom and the suspect goes to the forensic pathologist. Or if a ccw holder pulls the trigger.
    Much better than criminals with dumb guns (they probably have a Hi-Pont so that is a extremely accurate statement) win more firefights. Won’t loose a single tear over criminals taking on the room temperature challenge and the fact that a self defender had a properly working tool.

  51. You know, if they ever figure out a way to keep my laptop from crashing, my phone from locking up or even my coffee maker from failing I might be more willing to listen to the rhetoric about smart guns. Until then, I refuse to bet my life on a computer chip.

    • Do you have a “smart phone” or any gadget that lets you talk to all the other gadgest in you home or car?

      If so, you might want to relate that to the gun thing. Anything electronically controlled can be hacked and use to spy on you. Do you really need gadgets that talk to each other? All of mine are dumb as rocks, and i like it that way. 🙂

      • VRROOOOOMMM SCREEEECHCH GET ON THE F’IN GROUND!! GET ON THE F’IN GROUND! click! click click click!

        I’m sorry, you gun has become un-paired with your enable watch. Please reboot the watch and press the START button (girl from ipanema plays for 40 seconds). Press 2. Press 2 again. Enter your enable code. Please wipe the blood from your finger and try again. Enabled, thank you. There are 3 updates available totaling 1.07gb. Would you like to do that now?

        (By now the smart gun is likely on the ground and the ever-so-dumb j-frame .38 has been deployed)

  52. How many more goddamn “smidgens” of infringement are we supposed to give up?!! I’ve had about enough of all the smidgens of infringement that are already on the books, designed to trip up the law abiding with a patchwork of nonsense, while the criminals blithely ignore these same laws, and get the revolving-door treatment from those who supposedly “enforce” them.

    Then flip the tables, and ask this: How much “infringement” would he & his ilk tolerate on their unfettered ability to spew holier-then-thou suppositions in the guise of (made-up) statistics and pseudo-philosophy?

    The trouble with being on such a high horse is that you can’t smell the pile of shit pouring out the back.

  53. First part
    “the chances that toddlers and other children happen upon loaded weapons have become statistically inevitable”
    Okay so he’s about “preventing accidents with children”

    Second Part
    “U.S. maintain a gun homicide rate on par with the Democratic Republic of Congo.”
    Hang on, I thought we were talking about accidents, when did we switch to homicide?

    I be confused

    • Numbers wise, we are absolutely close to Congo, with about 9k per year. GUN murders, is only 248 for the Congo. He really should stop trying to be a douche. They also have a rate of 14 per 100k, with a population 1/5th of the US.

  54. Gun control advocates would rather children/women/men be victims than empowered to protect themselves from the horrors that walk the Earth on two feet. For their laws diminish the safety, power, agency, and rights of every citizen who believes in protection of self and others.

    The problem is people who take their gun ownership for granted, they take their gun for granted, their 2A right for granted, their safety for granted, their kids for granted, their spouse for granted. These people fail to teach their family about guns, they load their weapon and leave it in their house, taking for granted that it, and their family is safe. But lets cut through the bull on this and be absolutely honest for once, it is the actions of these people which gun controllers latch onto like tapeworms, riding the sickening death and grief cycle to their political advantage.

    Smart guns take the cake as the dumbest idea of all time. They are the first step toward a day when your guns can be turned off by the powerful ruling class as a hedge against revolution. Oh sure, for now it is a “commonsense” measure to insure the safety of blah blah blah. Truth is, including computer tech into a fire control arrangement takes away the agency in each citizen to pull that trigger when they choose to. Smart guns kill the 2nd Amendment by installing a vector for the surveillance state to turn off the functionality of your firearm, for hackers to lock you out, to report the guns position to the hacker, to include these devices into firearms is stupid.

  55. Just like I don’t want to infringe on people with pain issues by banning opiates just because many people mis-use them.

    Don’t want people to die…..especially me and mine.

    Responsibility falls to the individual, not the state.

  56. The irony is that I’ve never met anyone actually against just the idea: The thing they don’t understand is that we all know that if they get produced they will become mandatory, just like New Jerseys automatic law almost triggered.

  57. I am usually all for safety devices especially on the idiotic striker fired guns that usually don’t have any but I tend to be cautious about the “smart gun”. I worked in industry for years and when you get into electronics they are not as reliable as some might think, God knows I ordered parts for such things for decades. Moisture, bad connections, vibration (like a guns sudden pounding recoil) batteries going dead, heat, cold, corrosion, and the list goes on that render’s such 21 Century technology less reliable than one might imagine. The more complex a system the more that can go wrong with it unless the object has stood the test of time in reliability.

    On the one hand the article is correct (if the device is reliable) as yes it would save thousands of lives every year but the Paranoid Jethro Bodine’s I am sure will come up with every far out, exotic and unusual excuse than they can possibly conceive to rail against it. Yes I too can come up with some exceptions to the rule that would rule against a smart gun in actual use but how likely would this happen, probably as often as you win your States lottery.

    Despite trick holsters we still have criminals who manage to get guns away from Cops and even civilians and when they do the smart gun would be useless to them. Besides Cops suddenly having their gun snatched I have read many stories on how women were overpowered in their homes and despite having wounded the intruder he managed to get their gun away from them and later kill them with their own gun.

    Children die by the hundreds every year because parents are too damn lazy and shiftless to put a trigger lock on their guns or keep them locked in a quick access safe and here again the smart gun would save hundreds of lives.

    O course the paranoid far out Right Wing Fanatics will conjure up Science Fiction scenarios claiming men in dark sunglasses sitting behind a master computer will suddenly and remotely turn off the power to all smart guns and only allow them to be shot on certain days and during certain hours. All laughable of course but reasoning with “the paramilitary lunatic fringe” is an exercise in futility.

    The other right wing argument will be, I cannot borrow a friends gun or train a youngster with a smart gun. Again maybe not true either as there could be a computer code you could use known only to you to unlock the smart gun so other people could use it but it should not be made instant for obvious reasons.

    Any change introduced to the Conservative is rejected out of hand out of fear, ignorance and paranoia just as they railed that the Brady Bill would confiscate and outlaw guns altogether decades ago.

      • yep!

        starts off by saying how unreliable Tech can be…and I fix electronics nearly daily and I have seen failures from what I call ‘shelf rot’ just waiting to be used kills them!
        But after he points out the faults–he goes on the rant about the good things, even though he already shot–illiterately his own argument down?

        • To Bobo the Bubba

          Quote———————–yep!

          starts off by saying how unreliable Tech can be…and I fix electronics nearly daily and I have seen failures from what I call ‘shelf rot’ just waiting to be used kills them!
          But after he points out the faults–he goes on the rant about the good things, even though he already shot–illiterately his own argument down?——————

          Look Bubba I gave credence to both sides of the argument but you being a paranoid Hill Jack and saying “Ah ha” this model did not work so they will never perfect it is about as ignorant as ignoring that even John Browning often failed many times in his various gun designs until he finally got it right and then and only then did he market the design.

          Technology does not stand still and yes in the future if they put enough research into it they may just come up with a reliable smart gun.. Remember even todays modern junk guns break especially with todays use of junk MIM cast parts and plasticky parts and even old time quality hand guns will wear out. Are you going to tell me sears and hammers never fail or extractors never break or magazines do not wear out or fail from weakened springs on even on old fashioned quality guns. Come on wake up and get real.

          And something else I forgot to mention the average crook is a numb skull and a smash and grab moron and if he finds a smart gun or knows of one in a home this is the last home he wants to rob as he would rather go for the “easy pickens” and get something he does not have to take to an expert to try and make work and even if the expert can eventually do it the cost could easily surpass the worth of the gun itself.

          Now Genius lets imagine that some day they do indeed make a smart gun that is reliable and extremely difficult and expensive to modify to work in the wrong hands. It may even cancel out the need for security alarm systems or the need to store guns in safes so they will not be stolen or picked up by children who shoot themselves with such guns. Of course I know you will reject this as it could not cut through your paranoia.

    • “Children die by the hundreds every year”

      If I remember right the number children that die from *accidental* discharges is less then 100 a year. Not even a statistical blip in a nation of 320MM people. Now, if the numbers include deaths from *intentional* discharges (crimes) then yes it would be over a 100 a year assuming that a “child” is considered 0-18 years old.

        • to lost in the Storm

          Nearly 10,000 American children are injured or killed by guns every year

          01/27/14 08:43 PM—Updated 01/28/14 01:11 PM

          By Clare Kim

          Over 7,000 children are hospitalized or killed due to gun violence every year, according to a new study published in the medical journal Pediatrics. An additional 3,000 children die from gun injuries before making it to the hospital, bringing the total number of injured or killed adolescents to 10,000 each year.

          The new study, led by researchers at the Yale School of Medicine, highlights the toll gun violence has on child mortality rates in the country. Doctors surveyed the most recently released data from 2009 that tracked pediatric hospital stays.

          “This study reinforces what we know from the mortality data,” Daniel Webster, the director of the Johns Hopkins Center for Gun Policy and Research, told NBC News. “We have an extraordinary health burden in our youth associated with firearms injuries.”

          In the 2009 Kids’ Inpatient Database (KID), 7,391 children under the age of 20 had been hospitalized for injuries from firearms and the majority of those gunshot injuries —4,559—resulted from intentional firearm assaults. 2,149 of those injured were accidents, and 270 were suicide attempts. Of the children who were hospitalized, 453 – 6% – died from their injuries.

          “That’s more than 7,000 children injured badly enough to be hospitalized,” said the study’s lead author, Dr. John Leventhal, a pediatrics professor at the Yale School of Medicine. “All are unnecessary hospitalizations because preventing gun violence is something that can actually be done.”

          Levanthal pointed out that parents should keep their guns locked in a safe hiding place and keep them separate from the ammunition to decrease the high number of accidental injuries, especially for smaller children.

          Webster also suggested to NBC News that the government should make it illegal for individuals under 21 to own a firearm, referring to research that shows a peak in homicides between young adults age 18 and 20. “While you have to be 21 to purchase a handgun from a dealer, if you’re an 18-year-old you can go to a private seller and legally purchase a handgun in 38 out of 50 states,” Webster said.

          Webster also compared the U.S.’ standing with other high income nations and pointed out that the mortality rate from firearms in the U.S. is nearly 10 times higher than the rates in other wealthy nations. “This is a very unique and abnormal problem that such a wealthy nation should have such high mortality and morbidity in youth related to firearms,” he said.

          After the devastating tragedy at Sandy Hook in December 2012, the gun policy debate intensified, coinciding with the rising number of children killed by guns in the U.S. every year. In the first 14 school days of 2014, there have been at least 7 school shootings: at Wakefield Elementary School in Calif., Berrendo Middle School in New Mexico, Liberty Technology High School in Tenn., Albany High School in Georgia, Delaware Valley Charter School in Penn., Widener University in Penn., and most recently, Purdue University in Indiana. In 2013, there were 28 school shootings.

          The American Academy of Pediatrics wrote in 2012 that “firearm-related deaths continue as 1 of the top 3 causes of death in American youth.”

          “America’s pediatricians remain undeterred and united in our desire to see significant policy change to address this public health crisis,” the AAP wrote on the one-year anniversary of Newtown, pushing for tighter background checks, an assault weapons ban, and federal research on gun violence prevention

        • Sorry, trying to call adults children doesn’t further your credibility. 18 and up is commonly called an adult.
          If you don’t think current adults can’t handle responsibilities then we should raise the age of everything to 21, to include voting age.
          That not being realistic, the best solution is merely one of training. Currently adults are considered responsible for their actions be it good or bad.
          Train everyone on responsible gun use so everyone will be prepared to responsibly excercise their Second Amendment rights upon reaching their majority at age 18.

        • Article:

          We used the 2009 Kids’ Inpatient Database to identify hospitalizations from firearm-related injuries in young people ,20 years of age…

          Cisco: “7,000 children…”

          Children, by definition, are under the age of 14, not 20.

          QED

        • Quote———————Sorry, trying to call adults children doesn’t further your credibility. 18 and up is commonly called an adult.
          If you don’t think current adults can’t handle responsibilities then we should raise the age of everything to 21, to include voting age.
          That not being realistic, the best solution is merely one of training. Currently adults are considered responsible for their actions be it good or bad.
          Train everyone on responsible gun use so everyone will be prepared to responsibly excercise their Second Amendment rights upon reaching their majority at age 18.———————Quote

          You do not live in the real world. Anyone who has worked in the field of education knows 18 year olds many times have a long way to go before they act and think like mature adults. Its not that they are not intelligent or capable of learning at all but rather their actions prove in many cases very immature and certainly not capable many times of thinking about the consequences of their actions before they succumb to sudden impulse and temptation. Its been law for decades in many States that you must be 21 years of age to purchase a hand gun and an assault rifle is actually a much more deadly weapon than any pistol could ever be. You would know that if you were experienced in the ownership and use of both types of weapons. I agree 100 per cent on the proposed change in age for the purchase of an assault weapon to 21 years or any weapon for that matter.

          And as far as the old cliché “if they can draft you at 18 then you should be able to buy a pistol” is hogwash because when the Neanderthals of the U.S. Military (because they were desperate for a lot of cannon fodder) started drafting 18 year olds instead of the WWII practice of drafting men slightly older found that insubordination, immaturity and out right savagery in regards to the murder of civilians all came about because of drafting boys at way too young an age. In 1964 my Economics Teacher who was severely wounded in WWII predicted all this would happen and History proved his predictions would come horrifically to pass.

        • Actually I spent my formative years in the Army. I managed to avoid registering for the draft by enlisting at age 17. And I can tell you that I never once considered being insubordinate to an NCO much less an officer because if I did manage to avoid formal punishment my first line leader would have supervised some personal supervised PT. And if the Army can train people to be responsible, then why cant schools? And if as you say that people in their late teens cant be taught to properly make adult decisions, then why do we prosecute them as adults when they commit an unlawful act. And then put them in prison with real adults?
          You’re either an adult with all of the rights and responsibilities or you aren’t.

        • To Mark

          Quote——————————–Actually I spent my formative years in the Army. I managed to avoid registering for the draft by enlisting at age 17. And I can tell you that I never once considered being insubordinate to an NCO much less an officer because if I did manage to avoid formal punishment my first line leader would have supervised some personal supervised PT. And if the Army can train people to be responsible, then why cant schools? And if as you say that people in their late teens cant be taught to properly make adult decisions, then why do we prosecute them as adults when they commit an unlawful act. And then put them in prison with real adults?
          You’re either an adult with all of the rights and responsibilities or you aren’t.————————————-quote

          Incidents of the deliberate cold blooded murder of officers by enlisted men in Viet Nam called “fragging’ (rolling a grenade under the officers bed) was quite common in Nam. I would say that’s the ultimate form of insubordination. Troops also when ordered out on patrol simply went outside of camp a few hundred yards and sat down and then came back later saying “we encountered no enemy troops”.

          I have read literally hundreds of books about WWII and I cannot recall even one author even mentioning this ever happening in WWII but again the average age of the WWII solider was older not 18 years old as in Nam.

        • Actually if I recall correctly Richard Winters wrote of something even more extreme in “Band of Brothers” and was included in the miniseries.
          And what you describe in Vietnam Nam wouldn’t be classified as insubordination, but disobeying a direct order or even dereliction of duty, and all the worse because NCO’s were also complicit.
          There was also a fragging incident that took place during the first gulf war.
          Of course I don’t have much experience with support units because I spent my entire time in infantry and armor units. Modern combat arms units, at least the ones that are lead well don’t have that issue.
          But we were talking about how schools can’t successfully teach adolescents to act responsibly while the military does pretty well at teaching it.

        • To Mark

          quote—————–But we were talking about how schools can’t successfully teach adolescents to act responsibly while the military does pretty well at teaching it.——————

          The implication here is that schools have failed while the military has not. Delving deeper into the subject we find that the Military, especially during the Vietnam war was brutalizing and brainwashing people drafted out of the “lower working classes”. Their lives pre-military consisted of being told “what to think” rather than “how to think” prime sheeple to be turned into robotic cannon fodder. The Military of that time found that young men who had been drafted that had some college or whose college deferments had run out did not succumb to Military Authority and its propaganda and even its brutalization and most were quickly removed from the Military as they were in addition to not succumbing to Military propaganda were also winning the minds of other draftees that had far less education.

          In conclusion blaming schools for not brutalizing and brainwashing students runs counter to everything a free and civilized society stands for. And as I mentioned before the Military failed miserably in its brainwashing techniques as well because Nam was such an unpopular war most of the draftees never succumbed to its propaganda either as was evident in the mass insubordination and out right murder of people in authority in Nam.

          The real facts also are that 21 year olds are indeed more experienced and more mature than 18 year olds and the proposed laws that would ban an 18 year old from simply walking into a gun store and buying a high capacity assault rifle makes a lot of sense, they for years have not been in most States allowed to buy hand guns and as I have previously said the assault rifle is certainly no less dangerous than a pistol, its actually way more powerful.

        • Cisco, you need to stop falling back on the old Viet Nam stereotypes. The biggest reason being that they are woefully out of date. No one has been drafted into the military since 1973, just before I enlisted.
          The current military, at the least the one I’ve been a part of, encourages the use of initiative which is pretty much the opposite of the robotic cannon fodder you speak of. I know this because I’ve trained soldiers to use initiative to accomplish the Commander’s intent.
          In fact, military members being more responsible has been recognized in several states by not requiring mandated training for a carry permit.
          As for your assertion that assault weapons are more dangerous than handguns isn’t born out by data. Homicides committed with any rifle is a very small percentage of all gun homicides. In 2015 they made up just under 3% according to the FBI. In fact, homicides committed with any rifle has dropped 35% since the federal ban expired in 2004.

        • QUOTE————————–Cisco, you need to stop falling back on the old Viet Nam stereotypes. The biggest reason being that they are woefully out of date. No one has been drafted into the military since 1973, just before I enlisted.
          The current military, at the least the one I’ve been a part of, encourages the use of initiative which is pretty much the opposite of the robotic cannon fodder you speak of. I know this because I’ve trained soldiers to use initiative to accomplish the Commander’s intent.
          In fact, military members being more responsible has been recognized in several states by not requiring mandated training for a carry permit.
          As for your assertion that assault weapons are more dangerous than handguns isn’t born out by data. Homicides committed with any rifle is a very small percentage of all gun homicides. In 2015 they made up just under 3% according to the FBI. In fact, homicides committed with any rifle has dropped 35% since the federal ban expired in 2004.——————–quote

          Your in error on both counts. The military today still draws most of its recruits form the “lower uneducated working classes” and more and more has enticed non-citizens i.e. Latino’s into the military with a promise of citizenship only to stab them in the back after they use them up and their service is over. There are plenty of news stories documenting many horror stories on that subject not only on MSNBC News but even France24News has carried such horror stories. Upper Middle Cass families send their children for advanced education and none are interested in being used as cannon fodder so the Military Industrial Complex can make more millions on more wars of rape, pillage and conquest all of which have failed to achieve anything except bankrupt the country and enrich the pocket books of corrupt politicians and the people who produce the billions of dollars of weapons that drains the civilian budget of its tax dollars so none is left for social programs that are standard in civilized industrial nations. Its the prime reason we have no national health care, debt free education or safe roads, rails and bridges.

          Assault rifles have been used in the majority of mass terrorist killings, the majority of them done by U.S. born racist and Christian religious fanatics not foreign born terrorists. Permitting a mentally ill, racist and often immature 18 year old to simply walk in a buy a new assault rifle or buy a used one with no paperwork is the height of civic irresponsibility and total insanity which is against the law in all other civilized countries bar none.

          Many Western European countries have warned their people that places like Florida are a danger to visit and that criminals target foreign tourists because they know they will be unarmed and rob and often kill them and the foreign countries have warned their citizens about vacationing there. Further international publicity over outrageous unwarranted police killings have also affected the tourist industry.

          What is even worse the massive increase in road rage incidents where people are being murdered with firearms because they simply honked a horn at someone has also created panic not only in international tourism but even domestic tourism as well.

          I also mention hand guns because most states have banned anyone under 21 from purchasing one and it should be no different with assault rifles as well, the mass killings prove it beyond all doubt.

          Most civilized nations who have way less gun homicide have laws making it mandatory to vet the purchase of all guns and background checks declaring a person is not and has not been declared mentally ill as well as mandating safe secure storage and security alarm systems and mandatory professional training programs and age requirments to purchase. Its no accident that these other nations have way less accidental deaths and crime with guns.

          When you study even Germany’s requirements and training just to get a fishing license let alone a gun license its not hard to understand why their gun problems are minuscule compared to the sea of blood and bullets on the streets of our country and not just in the big cities.

          Its interesting to note that the recent attack by terrorists in Britain where they used a van and knives to try and kill people but largely failed to succeed in a mass killing was due to them even unable to buy a shotgun without thorough vetting. People in the bar fought the terrorists with chairs and razor sharp broken bottles something impossible to do if they had been armed with firearms. In other words Britain’s gun laws worked and people who should not have got a gun did not get one. No gun laws is perfect and never will be but to have no laws, as is true in the U.S. because States with lax laws feed guns into States with strict laws and no vetting of second hand guns simply shows that often you can buy a “street gun” faster than you can buy a hamburger in any State in the Union even if you are a raving lunatic. Its the American way (sarcasm intended).

        • Bwahaha! That last part is hilarious! I have purchased hundreds of hamburgers in Missouri, and all of those transactions took far less time to complete than the gun purchases I have made (except this one time at Steak n Shake where they brought me a burger with disgusting mayo on it four times). I don’t understand this fallacy that you can legally walk into a store and purchase a gun the same as you can purchase anything else. You have to fill out the paperwork and then sit and wait for the store to conduct the NICS check. The minimum amount of time this has ever taken for me was 20 minutes, with one two day and one three day wait, presumably because I have an unenforceable warrant for an unconstitutional red light ticket that I refused to pay. The vast majority of people who commit crimes with guns did not acquire them legally, as has been pointed out many times. And if you’re talking about “street” guns, how will imposing more restrictions on lawful purchases stop illegal sales? Oh, that’s right… it won’t. Because the only true way to keep criminals from getting guns is to keep everyone else from getting guns and to confiscate the hundreds of millions already in circulation. Why don’t you just be honest and say that’s your goal?

        • to Cyst Cjstl

          Quote————————————–Bwahaha! That last part is hilarious! I have purchased hundreds of hamburgers in Missouri, and all of those transactions took far less time to complete than the gun purchases I have made (except this one time at Steak n Shake where they brought me a burger with disgusting mayo on it four times). I don’t understand this fallacy that you can legally walk into a store and purchase a gun the same as you can purchase anything else. You have to fill out the paperwork and then sit and wait for the store to conduct the NICS check. The minimum amount of time this has ever taken for me was 20 minutes, —–Quote————————–

          Ready comprehension Jethro , reading comprehension. That was and is exactly my point that all guns should be vetted not just new ones.

          quote—————-The vast majority of people who commit crimes with guns did not acquire them legally, as has been pointed out many times. And if you’re talking about “street” guns, how will imposing more restrictions on lawful purchases stop illegal sales? Oh, that’s right… it won’t. Because the only true way to keep criminals from getting guns is to keep everyone else from getting guns and to confiscate the hundreds of millions already in circulation. ——————————————-quote————————-

          Again Moron that has been my point all along that States with lax laws funnel guns into States with tough laws making State laws a bad joke. Vetting new and second hand gun purchases at the Federal Level would cut off tens of thousands of “street guns” and requiring the mandatory use of safes and security alarm systems would cut down on thousands of guns being stolen. Its only the ignorant cheap ass Hill Jack that bemoans the fact that after his guns were stolen he was too cheap and stingy to buy a safe and a security alarm system. And it is the lazy irresponsible hill jack that does not want to take a few minutes to vet all purchases of all gun sales to keep criminals and lunatics from buying them or keep his guns in safes to keep children from finding them and killing themselves with them, its just too much effort to open a safe door and put them away.

          Ever wonder why civilized nations have way less guns stolen or used in crimes, its because they have instituted all of my above recommendations decades and decades ago and History has proven their systems work and we who have few restrictions are knee deep in blood and bullets on a daily basis.

          Quote———————————Because the only true way to keep criminals from getting guns is to keep everyone else from getting guns and to confiscate the hundreds of millions already in circulation. Why don’t you just be honest and say that’s your goal?————————quote——————-

          Requiring the vetting of all gun sales and the mandatory use of safes and security systems takes away no ones guns. Even a 6 year old has that much reading comprehension. Next time have your wife explain this too you as its way over your head.

        • Please, show me the “civilized” country that requires safes and home security systems. Do you actually believe half of the crap you spew? Your “civilized” nations have achieved this reduced level of gun violence by effectively outlawing all or most firearms, and as a consequence, severely restricting or completely eliminating their citizens’ ability to defend themselves.

          I’ve already espoused my views that there should be an easy mechanism in place for second-hand sellers to run NICS checks when selling their guns, if for no other reason than to protect them from criminal and financial liability if they inadvertently sell to a prohibited person who goes on to commit a crime. Until such a system is available, I would not sell one of my guns without going through a FFL. That said, you act like second-hand sales are as common as people buying hot dogs from a street vendor. I just don’t see that.

          Your absurd argument for requiring safes and home security systems has been thoroughly destroyed so many times, I shouldn’t even address it again. But it is so stupid and ill-informed that I can’t help myself. You clearly know nothing about gun safes. Any safe that is too cumbersome for a thief to move is also not going to allow the owner access to a firearm if needed for home defense. Those safes are predominantly kept in basements or garages, and are designed to safely store guns that aren’t needed “right now.” The safes that I, and millions of others use to keep our pistols accessible but out of reach of children, are little things. They’re not designed to be anti-theft devices. They can be easily removed, even if attached to wall or furniture. All a thief needs to do is grab the safe and go. They can later drill out the lock or probably smash it with a hammer or rock.

          As for the notion that the government could somehow require citizens to have home security systems, that would never get through the courts. EVER. And rightfully so. It is a clear attempt to make gun ownership too expensive and onerous, and would have the worst impact on the people who need a firearm the most. Of course, I’m not at all surprised to hear an elitist liberal not caring a whit for the huddled masses. Calling a clear assault on the poor “common sense” is just disgusting. Of course, that is the liberal M.O. Convince the poor that they can’t do anything for themselves and make them ever more dependent upon the government for everything just to keep them voting the way you want them to vote. Bravo to you for sticking to your playbook. But don’t think that everyone reading this blog doesn’t see you for what you are.

        • “I’ve already espoused my views that there should be an easy mechanism in place for second-hand sellers to run NICS checks when selling their guns, if for no other reason than to protect them from criminal and financial liability if they inadvertently sell to a prohibited person who goes on to commit a crime.”

          Former Senator Tom Coburn suggested such a thing in 2013. And the gun control lobby showed no interest.

          https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2013/04/27/do-it-yourself-background-checks/2088479/

        • To the Cyst

          Quote———————Please, show me the “civilized” country that requires safes and home security systems. Do you actually believe half of the crap you spew? Your “civilized” nations have achieved this reduced level of gun violence by effectively outlawing all or most firearms, and as a consequence, severely restricting or completely eliminating their citizens’ ability to defend themselves. ——————————–Quote

          Quote————–Your absurd argument for requiring safes and home security systems has been thoroughly destroyed so many times, I shouldn’t even address it again. ———————-quote—————

          The trouble with you Jethro’s is that you know exactly Zero about other Countries so I will name a few. We will start off with the one most often quoted and that is Japan who Jethro’s like yourself believe that they are not allowed to own guns. False. They own shotgun’s and Rifles and I even watched an entire video on an American who lives there and is not a citizen and after going through the civilized procedures of vetting got both a rifle and a shotgun and they have all and more of the laws that I have proposed and Japans crime rate is much lower than the Wild West of the U.S. They have safe storage and security alarm systems being mandatory as well.

          Quote———————–Any safe that is too cumbersome for a thief to move is also not going to allow the owner access to a firearm if needed for home defense. Those safes are predominantly kept in basements or garages, and are designed to safely store guns that aren’t needed “right now.” The safes that I, and millions of others use to keep our pistols accessible but out of reach of children, are little things. They’re not designed to be anti-theft devices. They can be easily removed, even if attached to wall or furniture. All a thief needs to do is grab the safe and go. They can later drill out the lock or probably smash it with a hammer or rock.———————————————quote

          Bull shit. We have full sized safes where you can get in with a touch of a few buttons and your advocating not even having small safes is just about as ignorant as it can get as anything that slows a thief down discourages him from even invading your home to begin with and you ignored my other requirement requiring a security alarm system. Now even if you only had a small safe or lock box no criminal is even going to have time to look for it with alarm systems going off. You advocating using nothing is about as insane as the rest of your diatribe.

          Next we will go to Germany that has extensive training requirements as well as the universal mental vetting to weed out extremists, nut cases and anarchists etc. They also like Japan have mandatory safe storage and security alarm requirements. They also have similar laws and have a way lower overall crime rate even when you factor in the people that were killed by terrorists. In reality you are way safer living in Germany than the U.S. negating the Trump Racists that shout Europa is bathing in a sea of blood and bullets from Refugees from the Middle East.

          France also has extensive vetting and testing before purchasing a weapon.

          And now comes a real surprise in Hungary you can buy a fully automatic weapon with the proper vetting while in the U.S. it is outlawed for the purchase of a brand newly manufactured full auto weapon and has been since the days of Herr Ronald Reagan who hated full auto and semi-auto weapons and banned the full auto weapons and remember he was a Republican. Now is it not strange that Hungary with all those full auto weapons, still has less crime than the U.S. Just perhaps its because of their vetting and storage and security systems of guns that does it.

          Try again Jethro.

          Quote——————-As for the notion that the government could somehow require citizens to have home security systems, that would never get through the courts. EVER————————–quote

          Now that is a real laugh. Just look at all the other gun laws that have been passed just on the State level and your telling me the Feds could not do it. Get real, when States pass laws even banning the ownership of various types of weapons your trying to tell me with a straight face that a law that in no way bans any guns but just involves safe storage and security is not going to be passed by the Feds. You had better get back to reality Jethro.

          Give up your out of your league and your knowledge of the history of weapons control both in the U.S. and Abroad is about as extensive as your knowledge of History which is zero.

        • The guy who makes stuff up on the fly questions my knowledge of history. How about your ability to command grammar and punctuation, let alone to make a cohesive argument? I don’t see much of any of the above in your posts. Just garbage piled upon garbage – tired and disproven rhetoric in a pathetic, disorganized rant. You’ll never persuade a soul with your drivel, and I think that’s why you get frustrated and result to name calling and incorrect stereotypes. I hope the people who pay you never realize what an utter joke you are. It makes me smile to see their money wasted in such impressive fashion.

        • To the ci

          Since your reply had no counter argument except ranting insults like a child who has just had his blanket taken away, you just proved you went down with your ship while shaking your fist at me. I loved every minute of your reply.

        • I didn’t try to counter your arguments because you didn’t counter mine. All you did was lie about Japan and Germany requiring gun owners have home security systems, rehash the same arguments that I had already countered, and call me “Jethro.” Clearly, there is no point arguing with you further, because you lack the cognitive ability to argue.

        • to The Cist

          Quote———————-I didn’t try to counter your arguments because you didn’t counter mine. All you did was lie about Japan and Germany requiring gun owners have home security systems, rehash the same arguments that I had already countered, and call me “Jethro.” Clearly, there is no point arguing with you further, because you lack the cognitive ability to argue.————————-quote————————–

          You should have quit while you were ahead. Anyone who is familiar with gun laws in other countries knows damn well they do indeed require safe storage and the use of security alarms. As I mentioned before their was a detailed video made by an ex- American Serviceman detailing the paperwork he had to go through but in the end after being vetted for a clear non-criminal history and being of sound mind with no mental issues he did indeed get his rifle and shotgun and yes he showed his safe whose exact position in his house had to be sent to the authorities as well as a security alarm system. And the result of all this in Japan is keeping guns out of the hands of criminals and nut cases and prevention of stolen guns. And ditto for Germany as well as if you were not paranoid about watching foreign news programs their have been programs showing German gun owners and their laws.

          Making statements that this is a lie only makes you look like an ignorant hill jack which you proved beyond any doubt whatsoever.

        • The mark of a liar – when you’re called out on your lies, just keep lying. Japan allows virtually no civilian gun ownership. No handguns, no rifles. Shotguns are the only firearms possible to own in Japan, but they make it extremely difficult. The rate of firearms related crimes in Japan is so low due to their draconian gun control and geographic isolation. It is very difficult to smuggle guns into the country, although the Yakuza and other criminal elements still manage. Germany has implemented some safe storage laws, but they do not require citizens to have home security systems. In fact, in all of my research, Greece is the only country I could find that has any such law. Greece requires anyone who owns more than three firearms to have a home security system. The information on Greece was somewhat outdated, so I don’t know whether this information is still accurate.

          Your friends at The Trace did a write-up last year on the four wealthy countries with the most “successful” gun control laws. You should read it, and maybe you could at least get your information straight. With the exception of Germany, which is still working hard to get there, the other three countries featured in the article – Japan, Australia, and the UK – have accomplished their lower numbers by prohibiting their citizens from owning most (if not all) firearms. They don’t have safe storage laws because they don’t have guns. Period.

          It’s as I said before – the only way to [mostly] eliminate gun deaths is to take away all the guns. The other shit just doesn’t work. Unfortunately for you gun grabbers, the majority of Americans value our freedom and independence. And we aren’t giving you our guns.

          So for future reference, you can call me all the names you want, but it won’t change the fact that I’m right and you’re a liar. Or maybe you’re just ignorant and have very poor reading comprehension. Perhaps calling me “Jethro” or “hill jack” is just projection – you compensating for the shame you feel at your own ineffectiveness. Equally so, you telling me I am ignorant of the laws in other countries is also projection, since you’re the one who has no clue.

          And by the way, I do keep my guns in safe storage. I do it because I have children, and I am a responsible parent who would never want them or their friends to be injured. Most of my guns are in a large steel safe, but one or two of my pistols are always in a smaller safe for accessibility when not on my person. I have a functioning home security system, but I keep it turned off because I always have at least one medium to large dog in my house. I don’t believe in keeping my dogs crated, and they will set off the motion sensors. I don’t worry much, because I live in a low-crime area with lots of neighbors. And again, dogs. But this is just my situation. Other people’s circumstances vary. Their financial situations vary. Whether or not they have children in the house varies. I believe that people should choose a responsible solution that works best for them, but I believe the government has no business dictating requirements. If people don’t make the right choices, there is always criminal and civil liability to consider.

          So at this point, I am done with you. And I am dismissing you. You, of course, are welcome to respond with another factually inaccurate rant and/or call me all the names you like. I have won the credibility battle, which wasn’t hard since you have none. And I no longer have the time or inclination to disprove more of your false statements. So I will just leave you with one final piece of advice:

          Beware the man who can read and use Google. For he shall sniffeth out thy bullshit and exposeth thee for the fraud that thou art.

        • Quote————————–Germany has implemented some safe storage laws, but they do not require citizens to have home security systems. In fact, in all of my research, Greece is the only country I could find that has any such law. Greece requires anyone who owns more than three firearms to have a home security system———————-quote

          First you claim none have safe storage or security alarms and now you say yes some do. Get your ranting’s straight before making a fool of your self.

          Germany has different laws for different province’s to boot and yes if you had watched any European TV you would see that security is mandatory and even more important training is so rigorous the average U.S. retard would never even pass the first round of tests. Its brutal, but for a reason. You must understand the law, you must understand safe storage and gun handling and it pays off very well as their gun accidents and crime are a drop in the bucket compared to our carnage. That’s a fact you cannot lie about.

          As far as Japan Trap shooting and Skeet Shooting ranges have people that participate in that sport all the time and hunters use firearms for hunting as well. I have seen programs and interviews with them on the rage. Also again their was a program that showed an ex- American Service man and he opened his safe and showed everyone the guns he had bought and yes he had a rifle which he used to hunt or shoot in the woods in back of his house. He simply emphasized that anyone who was not a criminal and wanted to go through all the vetting and paperwork could indeed own a firearm in Japan and he showed a very thick loose leaf binder and the various tests and procedures and medical records he had to submit too. Even the room the safe was in had to be submitted on paper and it had to be a certain regulation size and strength and no it was not an expensive heavy duty “D” Bold type safe either. But is was for a very good reason, their laws work very well and nut cases and punk street criminals do not buy guns on the street as fast as they can buy a bowl of rice and fish. In the U.S. all gun laws are a complete joke as without uniform gun laws at the Federal level anyone can buy a second hand gun even if they just got out of a mental institution for killing a hundred people. Its that insane.

        • It’s interesting that you like the concept of requiring vetting except when the President is requiring it to enter the country.

          “In the U.S. all gun laws are a complete joke as without uniform gun laws at the Federal level anyone can buy a second hand gun even if they just got out of a mental institution for killing a hundred people. Its that insane.”

          Actually you just gave an example of a person who is prohibited from possessing a firearm or ammunition under federal law.

        • “The military today still draws most of its recruits form the “lower uneducated working classes” and more and more has enticed non-citizens ”

          Yep, many soldiers enter the military right out of high schools. At least those that don’t enter after getting a college degree to become officers.
          However the military then provides them an opportunity to become educated by providing 100% tuition assistance for classes taken while on active duty. They even award additional promotion points.
          From what I’ve read most of those who were deported for some reason didn’t apply for citizenship and claim to have assumed that it was automatic. And one I read of sounds like he was administratively discharged.
          I’m curious as to whether there’s a procedure in pace to prevent that. I’ll look into that.

          “Assault rifles have been used in the majority of mass terrorist killings, the majority of them done by U.S. born racist and Christian religious fanatics not foreign born terrorists.”

          Are you referring to mass terrorist killings in the US? I’m curious because I’ve seen gun control memes claiming that toddlers have killed more people than terrorists.
          Of course they aren’t counting events like the first Ft. Hood shooting or the Pulse night club shooting.
          I have noticed that for it to be Christian terrorism the only thing required to make it terrorism is to belong to a church or make a comment on face book.
          However for it to be Islamic terrorism you need to have a paid up membership card signed by Bin Laden along with written orders signed by the same.

          “Its interesting to note that the recent attack by terrorists in Britain where they used a van and knives to try and kill people but largely failed to succeed in a mass killing was due to them even unable to buy a shotgun without thorough vetting.”

          I’m not buying the gun laws making the terrorists using cars and knives. The two main reasons I’m not buying it are Charlie Hebdo and Bataclan in France.
          I’m guessing there were some laws in place in France restricting AKs, grenades, and suicide vests. And my understanding that freedom to travel between countries in the EU are a lot like traveling between states here.
          So if these items are in France what is stopping them from taking a ferry or the Chunnel to the U.K.
          Maybe someone more knowledgeable than I on travel in the EU can correct me if I’m wrong.
          Though there do seem to be some laying about,

          “Police found 11 Makarov-type self-loading pistols with silencers and a Russian AKS-74U assault rifle, as well as 107 handgun cartridges and 30 rifle cartridges.”

          https://www.mynewsdesk.com/uk/metpoliceuk/news/four-men-jailed-for-firearms-offences-241786

        • to mark

          quote——————-Yep, many soldiers enter the military right out of high schools. At least those that don’t enter after getting a college degree to become officers.——————quote——————–

          Precisely my point and you without realizing it just admitted it i.e. that High School graduates from lower working class families with no money to get an education or go in debt for the rest of their lives or any opportunity for a decent paying job join the military right out of high school.

          quote—————————From what I’ve read most of those who were deported for some reason didn’t apply for citizenship and claim to have assumed that it was automatic. And one I read of sounds like he was administratively discharged.———————–quote—————-

          Its been well documented that the Latino’s have gotten the shaft for citizenship after military service and so have Latino civilians that tried to become citizens by registering as illegals. They proved that for years they had jobs here and were responsible citizens and tax payers. Civilized Nations have procedures that do indeed permit illegals to become citizens by registering while the U.S. system is designed to prevent as many people as possible from becoming citizens. Its rules are a cruel joke as any Latino will tell you as its like beating your head against the wall for years.

          “Assault rifles have been used in the majority of mass terrorist killings, the majority of them done by U.S. born racist and Christian religious fanatics not foreign born terrorists.”

          quote————————————-Are you referring to mass terrorist killings in the US? I’m curious because I’ve seen gun control memes claiming that toddlers have killed more people than terrorists.
          Of course they aren’t counting events like the first Ft. Hood shooting or the Pulse night club shooting.—————————————————————————quote

          Again statistics prove the majority of people killed by terrorist attacks have overwhelmingly been by mad dog natural born Christian fanatics shooting up abortion clinics, churches , firebombing churches, destroying and desecrating grave yards, plastering Nazi swastikas on churches etc.

          Quote———————————————-I have noticed that for it to be Christian terrorism the only thing required to make it terrorism is to belong to a church or make a comment on face book.
          However for it to be Islamic terrorism you need to have a paid up membership card signed by Bin Laden along with written orders signed by the same. —————————————-quote

          So now your are saying that when a person declares he is a Christian he is a liar because you do not want to admit that right wing Christian fanatics are cut from the same cloth as right wing Islamic fanatics. I dare say if you listen to both groups they are a carbon copy of each other both hate anyone not of their political, racial or religious fanaticism..I knew if I got your anger up enough the REAL YOU WOULD COME OUT. It seems as though a prerequisite for joining the military is xenophobia, racism and religious fanaticism mixed in with a good portion of Historic ignorance. Otherwise if the average young man in the 1960’s had know the history of Vietnam and Ho Chi Minh they would have been shooting at the U.S. Army as well as Johnson and Nixon rather than the Vietnamese people who only wanted self determination for their own country. Well in the end the “good people” won that war but the U.S. learned nothing from it as it only wetted their appetite for more senseless wars of rape, conquest and pillage it just that they lose every one of them. At least the Romans won most of their wars of rape, pillage and conquest and they lasted 1,000 years while the U.S. of Hey has collapsed into greed, corruption and chaos after only a few hundred.

          quote—————————-I’m not buying the gun laws making the terrorists using cars and knives. The two main reasons I’m not buying it are Charlie Hebdo and Bataclan in France.—————————————quote

          Well since your not that bright let me explain the difference to you between the British incident and the Hebdo attack. The British attack was by a bunch of Morons who were not sponsored by State Terrorism out of the Middle East and British laws worked as intended as they kept them from getting guns. The Hebdo attack as well as the Friday the 13th attack “was” state sponsored terrorism so any Moron can understand that gun laws do not work when a foreign government wages war on you. It this getting too complicated for you.

          quote——————————-And my understanding that freedom to travel between countries in the EU are a lot like traveling between states here.
          So if these items are in France what is stopping them from taking a ferry or the Chunnel to the U.K.———————-quote——————–

          Again your Statement proves my point as its very difficult to stop terrorism when a foreign country is sponsoring it. So blaming domestic gun laws for not working is just plain ignorant. And insinuating that since they do not work against state sponsored terrorism we should not have any laws for the citizens is dumber even yet. European laws have proven that even including deaths by state sponsored terrorists their gun laws and training have lower crime and death by guns from both criminals and accidents are way lower than here in the U.S. The German gun laws and requirements and training have proven effective not only for civilians but also their 3 year police training has resulted in very low police shootings. I believe it was in 2015 they shot just 12 people while the U.S. of Hey gunned down a horrific 1,500 people and not one cop went to jail. In China with 4 1/2 times as many people Chinese police shot just 4 people. In comparison in the U.S. of Hey any Psycho and Sadist can get a badge and a gun sometimes with only a few weeks training so they can lay waste to the civilian population without any fear of ever going to jail.

        • “Precisely my point and you without realizing it just admitted it i.e. that High School graduates from lower working class families with no money ”

          Sorry, you didn’t trick me into admitting anything. Many join the military for the educational opportunities. And yes many come right out of high school. However they don’t stay uneducated because the military encourages service members to enroll in post secondary education while still serving.
          If your claim that the military is only looking for uneducated people who will mindlessly kill on command, encouraging them to become educated while serving would seem to be counterproductive.

          “Civilized Nations have procedures that do indeed permit illegals to become citizens by registering while the U.S. system is designed to prevent as many people as possible from becoming citizens. Its rules are a cruel joke as any Latino will tell you as its like beating your head against the wall for years.”

          This is interesting since over 100,000 military members have been naturalized since 2001. And since 2009 there’s been a program in place that gets soldiers naturalized upon graduation from basic training. I can’t speak for the other services, but in the Army that’s 10 weeks.

          “Again statistics prove the majority of people killed by terrorist attacks have overwhelmingly been by mad dog natural born Christian fanatics shooting up abortion clinics, churches , firebombing churches, destroying and desecrating grave yards, plastering Nazi swastikas on churches etc.”

          Let’s stick to the original claim you were making to justify restricting assault weapon sales to those under 21. That sort of removes everything on your list except for shooting up abortion clinics. I’m pretty sure that no one has been killed by graffiti. I’ve only heard of one abortion clinic shooting where the assailant used an assault weapon. And the guy who did that shooting was well over 21.

          “So now your are saying that when a person declares he is a Christian he is a liar because you do not want to admit that right wing Christian fanatics are cut from the same cloth as right wing Islamic fanatics.”

          No, I’m not claiming they’re lying. I’m bringing up the fact that when Christian extremists claim they’re committing crimes for “god” it’s taken as gospel, pun intended.
          However when the Pulse nightclub shooter states to police that he’s doing it in retaliation for US air strikes on ISIL, somehow that doesn’t equal terrorism.

          Annnd then we regress back to talking about Viet Nam some more…..

          “The British attack was by a bunch of Morons who were not sponsored by State Terrorism out of the Middle East and British laws worked as intended as they kept them from getting guns.”

          “The Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL, also known as ISIS) group has claimed responsibility for Saturday night’s attack in London in which three armed men ran over pedestrians on London Bridge and stabbed several more before being killed.”

          http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/06/isil-claims-responsibility-london-attack-170605060231113.html

          And then we segue into police shootings and I’m not going to go there tonight because we seem to be straying far from our original exchange.

        • QUOTE—————————“The Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL, also known as ISIS) group has claimed responsibility for Saturday night’s attack in London in which three armed men ran over pedestrians on London Bridge and stabbed several more before being killed.”———————–QUOTE——-

          WRONG; Isis takes credit for a lot of thing they have had nothing to do with. If they had sponsored it (and you referred to this in your post about weapons that could be smuggled in from France) they would have given them assault rifles and money to to mass murder people just like they did in France. The facts are they did not and without State funded weapons the British gun laws worked and saved lives that day, a lot of lives.

          No gun law can prevent State sponsored terrorism but using that as an excuse to resend existing European laws or prevent passage of similar sane gun laws in the U.S. is just to bizarre to even argue about. Their track record proves they have been successful when compared to the daily sea of blood and bullets in the U.S.

          Quote—————————-However when the Pulse nightclub shooter states to police that he’s doing it in retaliation for US air strikes on ISIL, somehow that doesn’t equal terrorism———————-Quote

          Wrong Again. He was American Born so he was an American terrorist (but since he was Muslim, to you he is not a real America, sorry there are a lot of them buried at Arlington National Cemetery but they don’t count according to your racism, your statements reveal what you think), Yes he was not another Dillon Roof waving the racist Confederate Flag and shooting up a church or the bearded Christian nut case that shot up the Abortion Clinic but none of the above were terrorists that came to this country from abroad. Like most Racists you only mention Muslims while ignoring that the majority of killer terrorists here in the U.S. are White Right Wing Fanatics who are xenophobic, racist, bigoted and ignorant. 9/11 happened because it was a revenge killing for all the people the U.S. has murdered in its bombings of the Middle East and make no mistake about it the Bush wars were over control of the oil and its wealth in the Middle East and Busch admitted exactly that in the first Gulf War and did it on National TV. In reality the Military does not make you safe, it makes you vulnerable to retaliatory revenge when you invade and bomb other countries. The Europeans are now calling us “the new 21st Century Nazi’s” a title we well deserve. Of course this is nothing new as there were demonstrations throughout Europe when we invaded Vietnam and declared ” We will bomb them back into the Stone Age” Sorry we failed, it did not work then and it has not worked now either.

          And this week we had a Mosque here in the U.S. firebombed while Herr Trump ever the Racist Nazi said not a word. When we had A REAL PRESIDENT , OBAMA he addressed every mass shooting and made many comments when Right Wing Maniacs made threats or damaged property. When a mad dog Right Wing White terrorist killed Muslims in a Canadian Mosque Herr Trump said not a word or sent no condolences to Justine Trudeau after only recently having a meeting with him in regards to U.S./Canadian relations.

          Yes the real danger to the U.S. are the Far Right Wing Fanatics who want no sane gun laws, support foreign wars and invasions of other countries, who attack minorities because they believe they are not “real Americans”, are against all immigration (Herr Trump wants to cut legal immigration in half) who are too ignorant to demand a single payer health system and to cheap to pay higher taxes for free education for our young people.

        • “If they had sponsored it (and you referred to this in your post about weapons that could be smuggled in from France) they would have given them assault rifles and money to mass murder people just like they did in France.”

          How about this attack?

          “On the evening of 14 July 2016, a 19 tonne cargo truck was deliberately driven into crowds of people celebrating Bastille Day on the Promenade des Anglais in Nice, France, resulting in the deaths of 86 people and the injury of 458 others. The driver was Mohamed Lahouaiej-Bouhlel, a Tunisian resident of France. The attack ended following an exchange of gunfire, during which Lahouaiej-Bouhlel was shot and killed by police.”
          “The attack has been classified as jihadist terrorism by Europol.”

          “Later that same day, ISIL’s official al-Bayan radio station said the attacker executed a “new, special operation using a truck” and “the crusader countries know that no matter how much they enforce their security measures and procedures, it will not stop the mujahideen from striking.”

          So we have a truck attack last year that was determined to be state sponsored terrorism and a statement from ISIL that we can expect to see truck attacks in the future. You seem to have a very narrow vision of what state sponsored terrorism is.

          “He was American Born so he was an American terrorist (but since he was Muslim, to you he is not a real America, sorry there are a lot of them buried at Arlington National Cemetery but they don’t count according to your racism, your statements reveal what you think),”

          Here’s a question for you, do you have to be a US citizen to commit Christian terror attacks? You seem to have that belief based on your comments. So the next question is, do you have to be from an Islamic country to commit Islamic terrorism. Hint, The two assailants in the Charlie Hebdo attack were born in France.
          So if a terrorist says he’s Christian we seem to just accept that he’s telling the truth. However, if a terrorist says he’s Islamic and that he’s committing his crimes to support ISIL, we don’t accept his word. Seems a little backward.
          I don’t really care what the nationality of the terrorist is. Religious terror acts have neither borders nor race. You though seem to have a problem accepting the concept that an American born citizen can commit criminal acts in the name of Islam.

          “Like most Racists you only mention Muslims while ignoring that the majority of killer terrorists here in the U.S. are White Right Wing Fanatics who are xenophobic, racist, bigoted and ignorant.”
          However in order to make those words accurate you have to work hard to explain away Islamic terror acts in the US such as the Pulse nightclub shooting. The San Bernardino shooting, The Boston Marathon attack, etc. And if you use the same criteria to classify Islamic terrorism as you do to classify Christian terrorism, those would certainly qualify.

          “And this week we had a Mosque here in the U.S. firebombed while Herr Trump ever the Racist Nazi said not a word. When we had A REAL PRESIDENT , OBAMA he addressed every mass shooting and made many comments when Right Wing Maniacs made threats or damaged property.”

          Perhaps “Herr Trump as you call him didn’t want to say stupid stuff that turned out to be wrong the way our previous President would do when he would make comments before the investigation is complete.
          For example shortly after the Charleston Church shooting, President Obama addressed the nation and lamented that Roof was able to get a gun without a background check. And maybe two days later it was discovered that Roof had bought the gun used from a licensed dealer with the mandated background check.
          For a minute there I thought you weren’t going to mention Viet Nam in your comment, but you managed it. And by the way, it would be more accurate to refer to them as the Bush/Obama wars since Obama was in charge of the war for a portion of it.

          You take care now Cisco

        • Quote————————-So we have a truck attack last year that was determined to be state sponsored terrorism and a statement from ISIL that we can expect to see truck attacks in the future. You seem to have a very narrow vision of what state sponsored terrorism is.————————–quote———————————-

          Wrong. You need to start watching more foreign news channels not listening to right wing hate sites. The French police found the young man had no links to any terrorist group.

          French President Francois Hollande called it a clear act of terrorism, but it has not been established that Bouhlel was tied to any terrorist group. Franc’es interior minister said it Bouhlel wasn’t on any jihadi lists but it appears he was radicalized quickly.

          Bouhlel was not religious and only grew a beard days before the attack. The other people also charged were not working for Isis either and it was never even proven that the two people (a husband and a wife) actually gave Bouhlel a pistol (which he never used in the attack). The other man charged with conspiracy by the French also was not proven to have committed any crime either.

          Again as in France or the U.S. people are called and are often indeed terrorists but automatically linking them to radical Islam or radical groups is often proved to be a misnomer as many times they were only influenced by Isis propaganda or simply their own Nationalistic, or personal beliefs, or racial hatreds and acted on their own. The recent van attack in Britain was another good example of radicalization not actually weapons or money links to any terrorist group. In other words their are nut cases everywhere just as there are in the U.S. where right wing white nut cases create the majority of terrorism as well.

          There is a difference between people listening to Internet propaganda from Isis and then committing crimes and actual sponsorship by Isis which involves them supplying weapons and money.

          Trying to claim that gun laws do not work because of State Sponsored Terrorism is the height of absolute stupidity. It is war and as a military man you should know that even if we passed laws outlawing war that would be fruitless and the height of naiveté as well.

          Quote——————————-So if a terrorist says he’s Christian we seem to just accept that he’s telling the truth. However, if a terrorist says he’s Islamic and that he’s committing his crimes to support ISIL, we don’t accept his word. Seems a little backward.
          I don’t really care what the nationality of the terrorist is. Religious terror acts have neither borders nor race. You though seem to have a problem accepting the concept that an American born citizen can commit criminal acts in the name of Islam. ——————————————quote—————————————

          No it is you that link Muslims in the U.S. as the primary terrorist threat to us. You can try and justify your racism by twisting the truth but it is you, not I, that started harping on the Orlando attack as a foreign Muslim Terrorist attack (emphasis on the Muslim boogie man) . Wrong again. As I said it was committed by a natural born American citizen not a foreign terrorist. My point was that despite your rabid xenophobia and racism and hatred of all Muslims that terrorist attacks in the U.S. have been overwhelmingly made by U.S. White Right Wing Citizens (who were not of the Muslim faith or of Middle East origin). You consistently ignore all the U.S. School shootings, all carried out by White U.S. terrorist nut cases. Your not squirming your way out of this one as the greatest danger to the U.S. is its own citizens not foreign born terrorists. I stand by my original statement. So go peddled your Muslim boogie man bull crap to “the unwashed”Trump supporters, the KKK and the American Nazi Party. They all love Herr Trump the new” American Fuehrer” and like Hitler a darling of the far right racists.

          Quote——————————————For example shortly after the Charleston Church shooting, President Obama addressed the nation and lamented that Roof was able to get a gun without a background check. And maybe two days later it was discovered that Roof had bought the gun used from a licensed dealer with the mandated background check.————————-quote————–

          Wrong again. Obama was addressing the fact that the Brady Bill was supposed to ban Roof from buying a gun but did not because all the prior criminal info did not make it into the background check especially the narcotics charge so Obama was indeed correct with his statement and that simply was, according to the law, he should not have passed the Brady Check if the Brady Check had had all the necessary info entered in to the government files on Dillon Roof. It was also emphasized that Right Wing Hillbilly States were often deliberately not entering info in the Brady Bill such as people that had mental health records that put them into a “no sell” category.

          According to James Comey, speaking in July 2015, Roof’s March arrest was at first written as a felony, which would have required an inquiry into the charge during a firearms background examination. However, it was legally a misdemeanor charge and was incorrectly written as a felony at first due to a data entry error made by a jail clerk. Despite this, Roof would not have been able to legally purchase firearms under a law that barred “unlawful user[s] of or addicted to any controlled substance,” such as the Suboxone, from owning firearms

          quote——————————–For a minute there I thought you weren’t going to mention Viet Nam in your comment, but you managed it. And by the way, it would be more accurate to refer to them as the Bush/Obama wars since Obama was in charge of the war for a portion of it. ——————————–Quote

          Wrong again. Old Man Senior Busch started the first Gulf war and his kid Busch Jr. Started the Second one which officially lasted just 3 weeks. Obama had nothing what so ever to do with starting either war and both wars were over before Obama ever became President. He inherited the Middle East Mess from the war mongering Republican Presidents.

          And I might add its was Obama who finally tracked down Osama Bin Laden not the incompetent Busch regimes who tried for 10 years to find him.

          Quote——————————For a minute there I thought you weren’t going to mention Viet Nam in your comment, but you managed it.————————————–Quote

          I said no such thing and thinking you can shout military orders at me like you did to a bunch of naive 18 year old kids cuts no ice with me. By the way the same military bull shit cut no ice with me a half century ago and History eventually proved me right about the war, i.e. it never should have happened.

          T.E. Lawrence 100 years ago predicted that when the Military Neanderthals at the end of WWI simply drew lines on a map to separate all the ethnic and religious groups in the Middle East that civil war would go on for decades and decades and when the U.S. Imperialist War Mongers invaded the Middle East it made an already bad situation a world wide problem and human catastrophe that has not been seen since WWII. We were responsible for the current refugee crisis that resulted in millions fleeing the Middle East to Europe and although the Europeans have taken in millions of refugees the U.S. shamefully has only taken in a few thousand and we were responsible for this entire mess.

          Trumps Muslim ban is an insult to America and its beliefs and his current attempt to cut legal immigration in half only proves that he knows nothing of the contributions of immigrants or the fact that no refugee has murdered any U.S. citizens for well over 40 years. Its ironic that Herr Trumps own Mother was an illegal immigrant but since according to his racism that was ok because she was a W.A.S.P. Yes it was immigrants that made America great and continue to make America great not some ignorant Racist Moron wearing a red tie and shouting Hitlerite slogans scapegoating minorities. It parallels Hitler so close its chilling.

          With an aging population no longer paying into the system we need more refugees and immigrants not less. History has proven that when a society bans immigrants it has condemned itself to destruction. Rome was a good example of this as they too used immigrants as scapegoats when it was the Governments mishandling of the economy, the corrupt politicians controlling all the countries wealth and then putting the starving masses on welfare and building them the circus Maximus and the Coliseum to keep them from overthrowing the Rich. And by the way the Roman people eventually refused to serve in the military and threw flowers at the feet of the invading Barbarians. The U.S. has gone much the same way as Rome did since Vietnam with a population that no longer supports either the corrupt government or the military, that is precisely why we have no draft. THE ONLY PROBLEM IS THAT THE U.S. UNLIKE ROME DID, HAS NO HORDES OF BARBARIONS TO INVADE THE U.S. AND CHANGE THINGS FOR THE BETTER.

        • “No it is you that link Muslims in the U.S. as the primary terrorist threat to us. You can try and justify your racism by twisting the truth but it is you, not I, that started harping on the Orlando attack as a foreign Muslim Terrorist attack (emphasis on the Muslim boogie man)”
          Let me clear things up then. In order for it to be an example of religious violence, be it Christian or Islamic here is my criteria.
          The person or people involved have to show some indication that they are committing the act to further in their minds whatever religion they follow.
          Race or ethnicity doesn’t matter
          Who paid for the stuff they use doesn’t matter.
          Whether someone told them to do it or they made it up on their own doesn’t matter.
          You seem quite determined to make the white Christian the boogie man. However if the criteria you use to call an event Christian terrorism is applied equally, then events like the Pulse nightclub, the shooting in San Bernardino, and even the mass stabbing event in St. Cloud Minnesota (missed being at that one by a week) would have to qualify as Islamic violence.

          “You consistently ignore all the U.S. School shootings, all carried out by White U.S. terrorist nut cases.”
          I’m afraid that most of the school shootings I’ve read about don’t qualify as acts of terrorism. Can you give some examples of school shootings motivated by religious extremism?

          “Obama had nothing what so ever to do with starting either war and both wars were over before Obama ever became President. He inherited the Middle East Mess from the war mongering Republican Presidents.”
          Sorry, President Obama gets responsibility for his portion of the war. He was Commander in Chief for eight years. And line one of the job description of a Commander reads, “Is responsible for everything the unit does, or fails to do.”
          For example, as Commander in Chief President Obama could have ordered the withdrawal of forces from the countries in question. In fact he did just that in 2011 for forces in Iraq, though it wasn’t due to any lofty goals, but rather due to the Iraqi government refusing to sign a status of forces agreement giving military personnel immunity from prosecution under Iraqi civil law.
          In fact, it was President Obama who more recently ordered US forces back into Iraq.

          “And I might add its was Obama who finally tracked down Osama Bin Laden not the incompetent Busch regimes who tried for 10 years to find him.”

          So do you actually think that who the President is somehow determines the motivation level of whoever was working to find and terminate Bin Laden? However, he does get to claim getting Bin Laden in accordance to the job description I mentioned above.
          He also gets credit for the Kandahar Massacre where sixteen civilians were killed. To say nothing of the policy of conducting drone attacks in residential areas in Pakistan. These operations were also started under the Bush administration, but continued for the entirety of the Obama administration.

          “I said no such thing and thinking you can shout military orders at me like you did to a bunch of naive 18 year old kids cuts no ice with me.”
          Actually you did. See below. Not sure where the ordering thing came from. I rarely needed to shout and I’ve found most 18 year olds in the military to be far from naive. Granted they do stupid stuff on occasion. If they didn’t you wouldn’t see as many used car lots, strip joints, and pawn shops right outside of military bases.

          “Of course this is nothing new as there were demonstrations throughout Europe when we invaded Vietnam and declared ” We will bomb them back into the Stone Age” Sorry we failed, it did not work then and it has not worked now either.”

          “Trumps Muslim ban is an insult to America and its beliefs and his current attempt to cut legal immigration in half only proves that he knows nothing of the contributions of immigrants or the fact that no refugee has murdered any U.S. citizens for well over 40 years.”

          I actually agree with you on the first part of your statement and disagree with you on the second. Considering the number of those who have come to the US to escape persecution of one type or other I’m sure some have committed murders of US citizens.

        • to Mark
          quote———————————“You consistently ignore all the U.S. School shootings, all carried out by White U.S. terrorist nut cases.”
          I’m afraid that most of the school shootings I’ve read about don’t qualify as acts of terrorism. Can you give some examples of school shootings motivated by religious extremism? ———————————Quote

          Your a pretty slick guy as you squirm while trying to put forth the false claim that all terrorist killings in the U.S. are the fault of either Muslims or Immigrants. In actually your playing a slick game of semantics to push your own racist agenda. The real facts are when people get murdered in great numbers any sane person would call that an act of terrorism. Using only religion to qualify it for terrorism or only a foreign person reeks with rabid racism. You can lie all you want but the Stats show that U.S. Citizens are committing all the mass murders, not foreign terrorists, not Muslims, not refugees, not illegal immigrants but White Racist Fanatics.

          By the way its the 5th anniversary of the White terrorists attack in Wisconsin by a White terrorists that invaded a Sikh Temple killing and wounding the people praying in it. I am sure you will say that does not count as terrorism or a mass killing because these people to you are not “real Americans”. Come on be a man and stand up for what you really believe. Lets quit playing games as you try and act noble while trying to conceal what you really believe. You may be fooling yourself but no one else.

          Quote————————I actually agree with you on the first part of your statement and disagree with you on the second. Considering the number of those who have come to the US to escape persecution of one type or other I’m sure some have committed murders of US citizens.—————————Quote

          Your rabid racism really shows through. Now you are making claims with nothing to back it up. It just so happens that when Herr Trump went through with his racist Muslim ban that MSNBC News has already done the research for you and you are wrong.

    • Maybe you should be a big boy and learn not to pull a trigger, and those striker fired guns won’t hurt you.

      *Warning: Pulling the trigger while the gun is loaded may lead to a bullet leaving the chamber, which can result in serious bodily harm or death.*

      Now that you have a warning label, you can stop being such a little baby about it.

      • to “in the John”

        Quote——————-Maybe you should be a big boy and learn not to pull a trigger, and those striker fired guns won’t hurt you.

        *Warning: Pulling the trigger while the gun is loaded may lead to a bullet leaving the chamber, which can result in serious bodily harm or death.*

        Now that you have a warning label, you can stop being such a little baby about it.—————-quote———

        Don’t Moron’s like you ever watch the news ever.

        Case in point last summer. Mom shopping with 2 year old. kid reaches into purse and before she can stop him he pulls trigger of safety-less striker fired gun and blows her head off. NBC NEWS

        Case Two. Pro gun Mom who was bragging on the news and internet how much she knew about handguns had her 5 year old reach forward while she was driving and he pulled her .45 acp striker gun with no safety and shot her in the back. She survived but had charges leveled against her for child endangerment. That was only proper to be sure. MSNBC NEWS AND WAS EVEN FEATURED ON THIS FORUM AS WELL.

        Now I could actually write several pages right out of “Gun Week” news over the years that IS NOT AND NEVER HAS BEEN ANTI-GUN but they have carried multitudes of similar stories.

        Even some of the gun magazines like “Guns” and “Gun World” carried a story last summer about the Cop that got out of his cruiser and slipped and with a safety-less striker fired gun shot an innocent man in a car he had pulled over.

        Now you cheap skate moron I know you did not know any of this because you do not read at all because you are too cheap and stingy to subscribe to anything.

    • Hey its Billy the Kid again. Seems like you took your meds today. Not as much rampant name calling. Just the usual false rhetoric. Oh the awful right is this the awful right is that. Blah blah blah. Can’t you for once be original? You need to move to one of them Muslim countries like France. There you can be a pedophile and/or rapist with no holds barred. Better yet you can learn to make a bomb and kill infidels – that would be white people to you. It’s those nasty conservatives who drive you to cut off your penis in protest. Well Billy go to it. I’ll provide the scissors. You provide the 2 or is it the 3 inches of manhood.

    • My biggest problem with “smart” guns is that everybody that gets up on their high horse about it seems to think gun owners should be allowed to buy and use only those devices. Whether we’re talking about guns, cars, books, health insurance, smartphones, or snack food, that kind of thinking really burns my biscuits.

      I think just about everyone here would agree with me that anyone who wants a smart gun should go ahead and get one. Just don’t try to make me get one. That’s all I ask, is that it be my own free decision.

  58. “Gun-rights absolutists, rather than surrender even a smidgen of infringement”

    I wonder if Grimm would open his mouth for just a smidgen.

  59. If you like quotes, here is my favorite: “Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not.” I guess Fred Grimm will be plowing my fields.

  60. to Mark

    Quote—————————————

    Mark says:

    August 13, 2017 at 11:03

    “I’ve already espoused my views that there should be an easy mechanism in place for second-hand sellers to run NICS checks when selling their guns, if for no other reason than to protect them from criminal and financial liability if they inadvertently sell to a prohibited person who goes on to commit a crime.”

    Former Senator Tom Coburn suggested such a thing in 2013. And the gun control lobby showed no interest.

    https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2013/04/27/do-it-yourself-background-checks/2088479/————————————————————quot

    What a joke you cannot be serious. No system that is voluntary would be worth a tinkers damn as Jethro would never have the intestinal fortitude or expertise to use it. And since its automated no further in depth vetting would work either. What a joke.

    • Cisco, since everyone likes to harp on some poll that claims that some 90% of whomever favors universal background checks, how can you make such a claim.
      A bigger question would be why prohibited persons attempting to purchase a firearm from a dealer aren’t prosecuted so rarely. The Brady Campaign likes to brag about the two plus million sales to prohibited persons were stopped by background checks, yet I haven’t seen an atf report that shows more than 100 violations being prosecuted in a year. Especially each of those people would be guilty of two federal felonies each.

      • Quote—————————
        Rather People Die Than Buy Smart Guns

        quote———————–Cisco, since everyone likes to harp on some poll that claims that some 90% of whomever favors universal background checks, how can you make such a claim.
        A bigger question would be why prohibited persons attempting to purchase a firearm from a dealer aren’t prosecuted so rarely. The Brady Campaign likes to brag about the two plus million sales to prohibited persons were stopped by background checks, yet I haven’t seen an atf report that shows more than 100 violations being prosecuted in a year. Especially each of those people would be guilty of two federal felonies each.————————————————–quote—————————-

        The Far Rights mentality is beyond all civilized comprehension. The major reason for the passage of the Brady Bill was “to deny purchase” to prohibited persons and this is what it has done so to insinuate we should do away with it or that it has “no use” is stupidity beyond comprehension. Prosecuting people is up to Law Enforcement and if they do not then it should be rectified. But you ignore why often that there is no prosecution as many people have no idea that they are not allowed to own firearms. So to go through expensive court law suits often does not justify the ends. Many people who are prohibited may not be violent felons as they may have been caught smoking weed or slapped their wife on one occasion etc. There must be leeway for each individual case not an “a typical Nazi Right Wing attitude of “lock everyone up” even if they only spit on the sidewalk. We tried that under the Nixon “war on drugs” that turned out to be a humanitarian disaster and a multi-billion dollar waste of tax money not to mention people who went to prison for 20 years for stealing a 1 dollar VCR tape because of “the 3rd strike” and then having no computer skills when they got out of prison. All of this is way over the head of the Trump White Supremacists.

        The Brady Bill only falls short because it does not mandate the vetting of all second hand sales of guns which funnel tens of thousands of guns into the wrong hands and often into other States that have tough vetting laws making their laws ineffective especially in high crime areas. All this is way over the head of the Right Wing Extremists.

        The Right Wing extremists wants no laws vetting any weapons and would want a machine gun in every home as well as grenade launchers and tactical nuclear weapons to be used on your neighbor if his dog pissed on your lawn. Sorry, civilized countries do vet all gun purchases as well as the mental health and criminal background checks and their much lower crime rate and murder with nut cases getting guns is much lower. It short their way worked and our way has not worked and all one has to do is count up the thousands of dead bodies lying in a sea of blood and bullets to verity it to even the mentally retarded but that’s way over the head of the Right Wing Extremists.

        Yes the average Right Wing stingy tight wad is always screaming about wasting tax payer money but think nothing of building bigger and bigger prisons (we already lock up a bigger percentage of our people than most dictatorships) or of wasting more money on building walls that do not work because corrupt Republican Businessmen lure illegals here with jobs or starting endless expensive wars of rape, pillage and conquest which results in no money left for health care, education, or repairs of dangerous unsafe roads and bridges. Most Europeans ask “why would anyone want to live in the U.S. these days? Answer: Its populated with a bunch of uneducated hill jacks and the Republicans want to keep it that way.

        • “But you ignore why often that there is no prosecution as many people have no idea that they are not allowed to own firearms. ”

          Sorry, your claim doesn’t work because before purchasers undergo the background check, they’re required to fill out a form 4473 which includes questions asking if for instance if they are a convicted felon, or have a conviction for domestic assault, etc.
          And each question defines for example what is considered a felony. If a prohibited person answers truthfully any of these questions, the sale stops right there and no harm, no foul. This is where the unknowing are weeded out. BTW, just below where they sign is a warning that it’s a federal felony to lie on the form.
          So by the time they undergo the actual NICS check they’ve already committed one felony if they’re prohibited from possessing a firearm.
          Besides that, it’s also a felony prohibited person to possess a firearm or ammunition. We aren’t talking about smoking weed. Which last time I checked isn’t a federal felony.
          And keep in mind that this law was mainly written by the Brady Campaign. So they would be the ones who wanted to make it a federal felony.
          What do you suppose happens if violations of the law against speeding only results in the police stopping you and telling you to slow down instead of imposing fines and possible loss of driving privileges? Does speeding increase? Or decrease?
          And on a closing note, how’s the extreme vetting working out in the civilized country to the south of us? That being Mexico. Last I heard, they’re homicide rate rivals DC.

        • Quote—————————–And each question defines for example what is considered a felony. If a prohibited person answers truthfully any of these questions, the sale stops right there and no harm, no foul. This is where the unknowing are weeded out. BTW, just below where they sign is a warning that it’s a federal felony to lie on the form.——————————————–Quote

          You tripped yourself up on that statement as people like you use the entire amount of people rejected by the Brady Bill as not having been arrested whereas if they answer honestly as many do there is no crime committed but this is ignored when the far Right Keep quoting the Brady Bill as not prosecuting everyone. And then they go on with the ridiculous idea that the Brady Bill does not do any good and should be abolished. Nonsense, rather it should be strengthened by including all gun sales new or second hand.

          Again prosecution is another problem and going to far with prosecutions fills up prisons with people often who are non-violent offenders. Does a man who stole a small amount of merchandise or money 20 years ago and did it by simple shop lifting need to go to prison because he tried decades later to buy a gun to go hunting with. This causes billions to be spent on him in prison which accomplishes absolutely nothing in the way of public safety. Again the Far Right Nazi ideology often is so ignorant it defies common sense. Now on the other hand hardened criminals that have committed serious crimes should be prosecuted and returned to prison for trying to buy a gun but again its up to law enforcement so do not try to destroy what good the Brady Bill does every day and that is prevent people from buying guns that should not have them. Again that’s the usual Right Wing Stupidity.

          Quote————————–And on a closing note, how’s the extreme vetting working out in the civilized country to the south of us? That being Mexico. Last I heard, they’re homicide rate rivals DC.——————–Quote

          Your ignoring my original statement of “success in civilized countries” not lawless countries in South or Central America that a run by or corrupted by Drug Lords. When the Government itself is lawless and corrupt how can any law help or even be enforced or obeyed. I might add that the only people even in those countries that can beak the law are not ordinary citizens but the “drug soldiers” that are employed by the Drug Lords who also control the corrupt government You analogy make no sense.

          You can dance around the truth and that is that extreme vetting of all gun purchases does indeed work and the stats have proved it for decades in many countries Laws unto themselves are never perfect and when Governments sponsor terrorism as in the Middle East Countries supporting terrorism in Europe or corrupt South American Governments supporting Drug Lords no law can be totally effective. But to say Europe should do away with laws that have worked for them and to say we should do nothing about the shameful gun carnage in the U.S. is the height of absolute stupidity and total ignorance of history.

          And remember lie all you want about it but the Brady Bill, home security, gun store security and security alarms never took anyone’s guns away from them if they were legally entitled to own them, that’s fact no matter how you try and lie or twist the truth.

        • “Does a man who stole a small amount of merchandise or money 20 years ago and did it by simple shop lifting need to go to prison because he tried decades later to buy a gun to go hunting with.”

          Cisco you seem a bit uninformed of what makes a person prohibited from possessing a firearm.
          First, conviction, not an arrest, but a conviction of a felony level crime. Your examples are clearly examples of misdemeanors. And there is a process to get your rights returned to you. By the way, you also can’t possess if you’re under an indictment for a felony.
          Second is a conviction, not an arrest for the crime of domestic assault. It then goes on to explain in detail such a crime.
          Third, If you’re a fugitive from justice. They describe that too.

          Fourth, if you’ve ever been adjudicated mentally ill or been committed to a mental institution.
          Fifth, A dishonorable discharge from the military. This is usually as a result of a felony level conviction in a Court Martial.
          Sixth, If you’re under a current restraining order.

          “I might add that the only people even in those countries that can beak the law are not ordinary citizens but the “drug soldiers” that are employed by the Drug Lords who also control the corrupt government”
          Actually the citizens did break the law for a time. They formed vigilante groups and did what the government couldn’t or wouldn’t do. They took up arms and routed the Cartel in a large area of the country. Of course after these victories, the government made them turn in those nasty illegal weapons that they took from the Cartel and crime rose back to original levels.
          Considering all the moral support the Mexican government has been getting calling them lawless and corrupt isn’t very nice. Especially with the President saying the same thing about them. This would seem to be a first with you seeming to agree with your nemesis.
          “You tripped yourself up on that statement as people like you use the entire amount of people rejected by the Brady Bill as not having been arrested whereas if they answer honestly as many do there is no crime committed but this is ignored when the far Right Keep quoting the Brady Bill as not prosecuting everyone.”

          Again, you seem to misunderstand the difference between an arrest and a conviction.

        • To Mark

          Quote—————————–“You tripped yourself up on that statement as people like you use the entire amount of people rejected by the Brady Bill as not having been arrested whereas if they answer honestly as many do there is no crime committed but this is ignored when the far Right Keep quoting the Brady Bill as not prosecuting everyone.”

          Again, you seem to misunderstand the difference between an arrest and a conviction.—————————————————————–quote

          Wrong, I do not misunderstand your statement at all. Your deliberately lying to people to try and claim the Brady Bill is not prosecuting thousands when there is no legal reason to prosecute them period. You cannot lie your way out of this one. When you answer the questions honestly and you are rejected that cannot be included in the statistics claiming that they should have prosecuted those amounts of people. What part of t his do you not understand and why do you keep lying to people about the stats.

          And you keep using this as an excuse to claim since their is not enough prosecutions therefore the Brady Bill doesn’t work. Another outrageous lie as it does indeed prohibit the wrong people from buying guns. Again why do you keep trying to deceive people on the original intent of the bill. Just because their are not enough prosecutions is no reason to trash the bill rather you can simply correct the other end of the bill if there proves to be some people who were not prosecuted. Again why do you keep lying to people about the Brady Bill’s intended main purpose.

        • “I do not misunderstand your statement at all. Your deliberately lying to people to try and claim the Brady Bill is not prosecuting thousands when there is no legal reason to prosecute them period.”

          Well Cisco, are you suggesting that there being no prosecution of prohibited persons who attempt and fail to illegally purchase a firearm is a good thing? An interesting view considering the law which was pretty much written by the gun control lobby made it a federal felony.
          My personal view is that once a person has paid their debt to society by completing their entire sentence, be it felony of misdemeanor, they should get ALL of their rights back. Including voting and legal possession of firearms.

          “When you answer the questions honestly and you are rejected that cannot be included in the statistics claiming that they should have prosecuted those amounts of people.”

          The people who answer truthfully and rejected aren’t counted in the numbers because they never undergo a NICS check. The sale is terminated by the dealer and goes no further. the statistics used by the Brady Campaign come from the FBI who run the NICS system and are only counting those rejected by an actual background check.
          The statistics are quite clear and it’s a problem that has existed in both Democrat and Reublican administrations.

        • to mark

          The point you are trying to make about people not being prosecuted is really no point at all because the Brady Bill’s main reason for existence was to stop prohibited people from buying guns and this it has done for decades. You insinuate since its not prosecuted enough people therefore its worthless and should be abandoned. That’s pure lunacy and pure stupidity in any logical persons understanding of it.

  61. quote———————–It’s interesting that you like the concept of requiring vetting except when the President is requiring it to enter the country.————————–quote—————————

    Every U.S. credible News Organization including many disguised foreign news organizations have stated the bill was a racist Muslim ban in total. What part of this do you not understand. Come on, stand up for what you believe in and admit your a rabid racist. Your not a Moron and you know damn well what the bill was designed to do. The past events of this week prove Trump to be the biggest racist and Nazi ideologist in the World right now. His Muslim ban shouted that out some time ago but its just this week that even the racist Republicans are finally scrambling to save face and claim they are not “as racist” as Herr Trump. Although the Republicans are rabid haters of many religions including Islam they are now claiming not be pro-Nazi to get re-elected in 2018 with Rubio heading the howling pack of running dogs.

    Quote———————“In the U.S. all gun laws are a complete joke as without uniform gun laws at the Federal level anyone can buy a second hand gun even if they just got out of a mental institution for killing a hundred people. Its that insane.”

    Quote—————————-Actually you just gave an example of a person who is prohibited from possessing a firearm or ammunition under federal law.————————quote
    ————————————–quote.

    I was wrong you are a Moron or just a pathological liar and deceiver as any Felon can buy all the guns and ammo he wants because there is no Federal law or most State laws that vet second hand purchases of firearms and also of ammo . Another law that’s long overdue.

    • “I was wrong you are a Moron or just a pathological liar and deceiver as any Felon can buy all the guns and ammo he wants because there is no Federal law or most State laws that vet second hand purchases of firearms and also of ammo”

      He can’t buy them or possess them legally. Possession by a prohibited person is a federal felony.
      In another comment you seemed to say that prohibited persons being prosecuted for attempting to commit such a felony isn’t important. Are you suggesting it only counts if they’re successful?
      And we already discussed a proposed law that would allow private sellers access to the NICS system to conduct background checks on private sales.
      So you seem to want to require all of these background checks, but don’t really care if those who attempt to commit a felony is prosecuted.
      Though I’d venture that you’d support a hefty punishment for those who sell a firearm without the mandated background check.

      • to mark

        quote—————————–He can’t buy them or possess them legally. Possession by a prohibited person is a federal felony.
        In another comment you seemed to say that prohibited persons being prosecuted for attempting to commit such a felony isn’t important. Are you suggesting it only counts if they’re successful?

        I have stated its a law enforcement prerogative but no reason to scrap the Brady Bill if they do not prosecute.

        Quote—————– And we already discussed a proposed law that would allow private sellers access to the NICS system to conduct background checks on private sales.———————————–

        That hair brain idea is pure stupidity and a total fantasy. People are greedy and shiftless and they by and large would never voluntarily take the time and trouble to run a background check if they did not have too. And in some cases it would be useless as well as without a live person doing the checking History has already proved that “holds” are often necessary for further vetting. The Dillon Roof case was another good example that even with a human checking sometimes screw ups happen and can you imagine how worthless an automated only system would be.

        quote—————–So you seem to want to require all of these background checks, but don’t really care if those who attempt to commit a felony is prosecuted.———————-

        See my above statement.

        quote————————–Though I’d venture that you’d support a hefty punishment for those who sell a firearm without the mandated background check.————————Quote

        Pure speculation on your part but in reality if the prosecutor was given leeway in a case by case basis that would be fair, but anything like a “3 strikes and your out” or mandatory sentencing without due consideration to the individual smacks of Nazism and the horrors of the Nixon “war on crime” fiasco that was a financial and humanitarian disaster.

        • “I have stated its a law enforcement prerogative but no reason to scrap the Brady Bill if they do not prosecute.”
          I never suggested scrapping the Brady bill. I’m merely questioning the wisdom of trying to expand a law that we rarely enforce.

          “People are greedy and shiftless and they by and large would never voluntarily take the time and trouble to run a background check if they did not have too. And in some cases it would be useless as well as without a live person doing the checking.”
          So if these greedy and shiftless people aren’t going to do it voluntarily, then what exactly will motivate them to take the time, trouble, and expense to conduct a firearms transfer between to individuals just to satisfy a federal law that isn’t enforced?
          You can get away with requiring the checks for new guns because they are serial numbered items that have to be sold initially through a licensed dealer. In order to do so effectively you would need to implement universal gun registration. If you think the opposition to universal background checks is bad, wait till you try to sell gun registration. Various states have tried to implement registration of assault weapons and have encountered widespread noncompliance.

          “Pure speculation on your part but in reality if the prosecutor was given leeway in a case by case basis that would be fair,”

          The current leeway enjoyed by prosecutors has resulted in what amounts to no risk. For example, in 2010, 72,659 sales were denied by NICS to prohibited persons. Just under half of them were convicted felons by the way.
          Out of those, 62 were actually charged. That sounds more like sheer laziness than discretion.

          https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/bjs/grants/239272.pdf

        • quote————————I never suggested scrapping the Brady bill. I’m merely questioning the wisdom of trying to expand a law that we rarely enforce. ———————————–quote———————–

          Your dancing around the truth by playing a shell game. I have told you over and over the main purpose of the Brady Bill was to prevent sales to people who are prohibited. Where the Brady Bill Falls short is that it does not vet Second Hand Sales. You keep trying to change the subject because you know you have lost the argument days ago. To be totally effective the Brady Bill must be expanded to vet second hand purchases. Law enforcement can prosecute if they want to but that is not the main purpose of the Brady Bill and never was. You constantly refuse to admit the truth about the Brady Bill because it shows that you are trying to imply it is useless and should be scrapped. You can deny this but your posts prove it beyond all doubt.

          “I have stated its a law enforcement prerogative but no reason to scrap the Brady Bill if they do not prosecute.”

          Quote——————————-So if these greedy and shiftless people aren’t going to do it voluntarily, then what exactly will motivate them to take the time, trouble, and expense to conduct a firearms transfer between to individuals just to satisfy a federal law that isn’t enforced?————————-Quote—————-

          Simple just a few high profile cases of crimes committed with not vetted guns that are traced back to the people who did not obey the law and having them thrown in jail and of course having big legal bills and their property and gun collection confiscated means the rest of the people get the message real fast. Did you notice the tons and tons of guns turned in when Australia banned many types of weapons. They had no problem getting the majority of people to obey and the U.S. would certainly be no different. People do not want to lose their jobs, or be jailed for years or lose all of their life savings. Now that’s a no brainer. Now no law ever made is 100 per cent effective as their will always be nut cases that refuse to obey the law but sooner or later they get caught and locked up because after all they are a danger to society.
          You can get away with requiring the checks for new guns because they are serial numbered items that have to be sold initially through a licensed dealer. In order to do so effectively you would need to implement universal gun registration. If you think the opposition to universal background checks is bad, wait till you try to sell gun registration. Various states have tried to implement registration of assault weapons and have encountered widespread noncompliance.

          Quote—————————-The current leeway enjoyed by prosecutors has resulted in what amounts to no risk. For example, in 2010, 72,659 sales were denied by NICS to prohibited persons. Just under half of them were convicted felons by the way.
          Out of those, 62 were actually charged. That sounds more like sheer laziness than discretion.———————-quote

          Without a review of cases your making a blanket statement that thousands of people should have been thrown into jail. Lets face facts many of the people may have not had criminal records for decades and to throw them in jail because of this simply is pure stupidity. Our jails our overflowing and the cost of incarcerating people is in the billions. I am not saying that law enforcement could not do a better job or convict more people if it proved that they really were a danger to society but again this is not the original intent of the Brady Bill as it was to prevent sales to people who should not get guns and this it has done very well for decades and decades you own quote above proves it. So quite trying to say its not effective or that it should not be expanded for all gun sales not just new gun sales. This is only common sense.

          You can lie and try to deceive people but you cannot get around the cold hard facts that if the Brady Bill was expanded to cover all guns it would cut off tens of thousands of guns getting into the wrong hands. Just because this new bill would miss a few people would not be cause to ignore the good it would do. That’s fact and none of your lies or deceit will change that. Is just pure common sense anyone can understand if you are playing with a full deck of cards in your cranium.

        • “Simple just a few high profile cases of crimes committed with not vetted guns that are traced back to the people who did not obey the law and having them thrown in jail and of course having big legal bills and their property and gun collection confiscated means the rest of the people get the message real fast.”

          Arrest, prosecution, property confiscation aka civil forfeiture. Where have I heard that tactic before…..
          That’s right, it’s used commonly in the war on drugs. And how’s it working out there?

          “Did you notice the tons and tons of guns turned in when Australia banned many types of weapons. They had no problem getting the majority of people to obey and the U.S. would certainly be no different.”

          The US isn’t Australia. I’d recommend you read a book titled The Samurai, The Mountie, and The Cowboy. I believe the author is David Kopel. It discusses the cultural factors that make some gun laws successful in some countries and not others.
          Keep in mind that individual rights, to include gun right have been steadily expanding in the US for many years.
          For example, may issue permit systems used to be common place in all of the states. Local governments had discretion to deny carry permits for no reason and the citizenry put up with it. Then they noticed that these discretionary powers were being misused and political cronies and personal friends were getting permits.
          Thus started the shall issue permit wave which expanded to the vast majority of states.
          And the next step in the expansion of gun rights is permit less carry laws which are now in force in a quarter of the states and is steadily growing much like the shall issue systems did years ago.
          And none of the states that have adopted such laws have gone back to may issue.

        • To Mark

          Quote————————————
          Arrest, prosecution, property confiscation aka civil forfeiture. Where have I heard that tactic before…..
          That’s right, it’s used commonly in the war on drugs. And how’s it working out there?——————–quote

          The War on Drugs failed because people on drugs should not be treated like criminals. Its an addiction and civilized countries have treated it as such. Why do you thin the War on Drugs failed. It failed because people were afraid to go for help and the help was not given because of stingy Right Wing people like you that though it would be cheaper not to help them which gave the drug dealers a free wide open market to make millions. In Civilized countries the drug dealers cannot compete with the Government who gives addicts freed drugs and then treatment to get off of them. Contrary to the Moronic stingy Right Wingers most people who are on drugs want to get off of them.

          “Did you notice the tons and tons of guns turned in when Australia banned many types of weapons. They had no problem getting the majority of people to obey and the U.S. would certainly be no different.”

          Quote——————————–The US isn’t Australia. I’d recommend you read a book titled The Samurai, The Mountie, and The Cowboy. I believe the author is David Kopel. It discusses the cultural factors that make some gun laws successful in some countries and not others.—————————–quote———————-

          Like Most Right Wingers your posts shout “racism” loud and clear. Unlike you I have been to foreign countries and have had many immigrant friends and I have learned (unlike you) that people are all human and react in the same ways to societal pressures and yes to laws that are just and meaningful. Law abiding citizens in the U.S. are no different than law abiding citizens in other countries and to say Americans are anything less is to denigrate our people in the U.S. as inferior to other people. To say people in the U.S. are different is absurd and totally racist. When many people are faced with losing even 1 penny you can bet they would not take a chance on losing their homes, their jobs, or their life savings or their freedom (jail time) with Jail time coming last on the list compared to losing money. When a needless death would result from them selling a gun without vetting even if they by some miracle beat the criminal prosecution their chances of beating a civil law suit would be slim when the law is against them from the start. So they would lose financially big time even if again by some miracle they won in the civil law suit against them because a defense attorney would bankrupt them for his services and they know it. With all this against them from the get-go, yes indeed they would obey the law and vet all gun sales or turn guns in if they were outlawed. The consequences for a normal law abiding citizen would be to great a chance to take and even the dim witted Jethero Bodine would realize this for sure.

          Qjote—————-Keep in mind that individual rights, to include gun right have been steadily expanding in the US for many years.——————————-

          Only half true. More and more states are outlawing assault rifles and high capacity weapons both on the East and West coast and in every instance the courts have ruled it constitutional. I do not agree with this but its reality that you seem to totally ignore. Recently California outlawed all assault rifles which must be turned in and the California Courts ruled that self -defense is only a right for the “ruling elite” which is them and they admitted exactly that as they said armed citizens were a threat “to them” and to “their henchmen” who protect them. They ruled concealed carry not be a right and they refused to rule on “open carry” laws already on the books which was an end run around “self defense rights”. In other words “in reality in some parts of California you have no right to carry concealed or unconcealed. California generally has historically set a precedent for laws that would eventually be adopted amongst all states so your idea that gun rights are on the increase is only right in so far as the few we have gotten are indeed only temporary as California and the East Coast have already proven. I am afraid its a steadily losing battle and since I have been a member of the NRA since 1962 the long range overall history of gun rights has been a losing one year by year and recently day by day. History doe not lie and it is reality even though you seem to be living in an alternate universe with a lot of fantasies and false hopes that are not based again on today’s realities. Again I don’t agree with what is happening but I am not blind to it either.

          —–

        • “The War on Drugs failed because people on drugs should not be treated like criminals. It’s an addiction and civilized countries have treated it as such.”

          Nonsense, the chemical dependency industry brings in billions here in the US. And those “civilized” countries you speak of still have their own war on drugs. At least the ones that haven’t legalized them.

          “Law abiding citizens in the U.S. are no different than law abiding citizens in other countries and to say Americans are anything less is to denigrate our people in the U.S. as inferior to other people.”
          Remember this?

          “People are greedy and shiftless and they by and large would never voluntarily take the time and trouble to run a background check if they did not have too.”
          So which is it? You speak of “civilized countries” and the US as two separate categories, and when I say about the same thing I’m racist. Keep in mind that most of those civilized countries you mention seem to be European so I’m not seeing how that makes me a racist. And of course couldn’t your classification of Mexico as a lawless country be considered racist? Or would it be xenophobic? Hard to tell these days.

          “In other words “in reality in some parts of California you have no right to carry concealed or unconcealed. California generally has historically set a precedent for laws that would eventually be adopted amongst all states so your idea that gun rights are on the increase is only right in so far as the few we have gotten are indeed only temporary as California and the East Coast have already proven.”
          Actually not quite accurate. In some counties you have no right to lawfully carry if you live in that county. However if you live in one of the many counties where the Sheriff considers the right to carry to be a real right and issues permits the same way they do in shall issue states, you can carry in those counties you speak of. California’s carry permits are good statewide.
          You do realize that the east coast states of Maine, Vermont, New Hampshire, and West Virginia now have Constitutional carry now, right?

        • quote————————————-You can get away with requiring the checks for new guns because they are serial numbered items that have to be sold initially through a licensed dealer. In order to do so effectively you would need to implement universal gun registration. If you think the opposition to universal background checks is bad, wait till you try to sell gun registration. Various states have tried to implement registration of assault weapons and have encountered widespread noncompliance.———————————–Quote

          We already have had universal gun registration for decades because that is exactly what the Brady Bill does, it registers the guns. How do you think law enforcement traces guns that are new and stolen back to their owners. Wake up to reality.

          As far as non compliance if there was death involved from some Yahoo selling his gun to a criminal who used it in a crime you had better believe two things would happen very quickly. One: The Yahoo would be arrested and prosecuted because of the death he was responsible for and he would also be sued in civil court as well. Believe me a few high profile cases like that and the rest of the people not obeying the law would get the message very quickly. This is nothing new other countries have had this type of law for years and guess what it works because people comply with it, they have no choice other than to go to jail and they know it. It may take them awhile to “get the message” but when Jethro, next door goes to prison the proletariat wise up very fast.

        • “We already have had universal gun registration for decades because that is exactly what the Brady Bill does, it registers the guns. How do you think law enforcement traces guns that are new and stolen back to their owners. Wake up to reality.”

          Actually you’re incorrect. Federal law requires background check data be destroyed within a certain period of time.

          They are able to trace the gun as far as the original buyer by starting with the manufacturer and eventually working their way to the dealer who sold the gun.

          After that there’s no guarantee since the firearm can se sold privately.

          As I’ve said before, you don’t seem to be very knowledgeable of the firearms industry and laws.

          “It may take them awhile to “get the message” but when Jethro, next door goes to prison the proletariat wise up very fast.”

          Proletariat? Did we just have a Freudian slip?

        • You are correct, Mark. Federal law requires all records of SUCCESSFUL background checks be destroyed by the stores after 24 hours. Which has always made me wonder how they would prove that they ran a BGC. Surely someone has that record?

          And stop feeding the troll. He’s so engorged that it will take a crane to remove him from his bed!

        • But he’s so much fun to play with. Especially when he brings up Viet Nam all the time. And him not knowing much about firearms.

        • To Mark

          “We already have had universal gun registration for decades because that is exactly what the Brady Bill does, it registers the guns. How do you think law enforcement traces guns that are new and stolen back to their owners. Wake up to reality.”

          quote————————————-Actually you’re incorrect. Federal law requires background check data be destroyed within a certain period of time. ———————————-quote——————–

          You just proved you have not a clue on how the Federal 4473 form works as your confusing it with the Brady Bill. They are two completely different sets of laws and both passed at completely different times. Federal 4473 forms are kept for the life of the license holder and must be turned into the Government when the businessman goes out of business and they then become property of the Federal Government who does not destroy the records. I know this because I have seen these turned in records at the ATF.

          quote———————–They are able to trace the gun as far as the original buyer by starting with the manufacturer and eventually working their way to the dealer who sold the gun.

          After that there’s no guarantee since the firearm can se sold privately. -As I’ve said before, you don’t seem to be very knowledgeable of the firearms industry and laws. ——————–quote

          No its you who are the Moron, read my above explanation on how both laws actually work. And by the way many times on the news when a sensational crime was committed when law enforcement “put the squeeze” and “terror” on the original gun owner who sold his gun they often came up really fast as to “who” they sold the gun to. I was amazed when they traced one gun through 5 different owners when they were trying to solve the murder of a governmental official. I do agree that not all guns can be traced, and yes far too many cannot be traced and that brings us right back TO MY ORIGINAL PROPOSED LAW AND THAT WAS VETTING OF ALL SECOND HAND GUNS.

          quote——————————“It may take them awhile to “get the message” but when Jethro, next door goes to prison the proletariat wise up very fast.”

          Proletariat? Did we just have a Freudian slip?———————–quote

          I like to shake up the Far Right as they are totally paranoid every time even communism is even vaguely or subconsciously referred too as the Far Right checks under their bed each night “for the commie bogeyman”. I will let you in on a secret, communism has been extinct for years but not dictatorships. You like most Right Wing fanatics fail to see the difference between an “economic system” and a “political system” . Now its time for an educational course. In South American you have some dictatorships that are very Capitalistic while in Europe you have most countries that are “Socialistic” but have far more and much better “Democratic” institutions than the “fake Democracy” established by the disingenuous “Founding Fathers” here who were “racist greedy cheap skates” that deliberately created the “Electoral College System” that was designed to subvert “true democracy”. They did a very good job at it too besides preventing women, minorities and even poor whites from voting. Too bad the U.S. does not have a “real democracy” and not a “two tear Citizenship category” that also makes U.S. citizenship a totally farce. Example, in France “people” directly elect a president while in the totally corrupt U.S. two presidential candidates both Gore and Clinton both won the Presidency by popular vote but it was given to the Republicans who did not win the majority vote. When you also factor in the corrupt gerrymandering where Politicians pick who votes rather than the other way around is it a wonder when the country of Iran was found to be more democratic than South Carolina and that their are lawsuits right now going on in two states over this corrupt dictatorial process. Of course the corrupt courts will rule for gerrymandering.

          And we do indeed have a “two tier” form of citizenship where not all citizens have equal rights. We have yet to pass an “equal rights amendment” which hits women and LGBT people very hard and millions of Americans who are citizens are not allowed to run for President simply because they were not born in the U.S. This is fake citizenship pure and simple and smacks of Right Wing Racism too boot. France being a civilized country grants such “inalienable rights’ while we make a total mockery of this. Shame on America and its fake and hypocritical democracy if we can even call it democracy.

          A recent Harvard Study proved if you are in the lower working class your chances of economic success are way higher by emigrating to Canada where job opportunities are better, health care is paid for by the government through taxes (rather than squander tax dollars on wars of rape, pillage and conquest) and their educational system does not bankrupt its children for life. And their crime rate is way lower and it not a see of blood and bullets as it is in the U.S.

          Anyone claiming that “today” the U.S. is the “best “to live it living in a fantasy world. Yes, there are worse places to live in but not amongst civilized industrial countries that’s fact.

        • “Federal 4473 forms are kept for the life of the license holder and must be turned into the Government when the businessman goes out of business and they then become property of the Federal Government who does not destroy the records. I know this because I have seen these turned in records at the ATF.”
          Yep, and I’ve seen any number of articles lamenting that the ATF isn’t allowed to keep a database of these records.

          “And by the way many times on the news when a sensational crime was committed when law enforcement “put the squeeze” and “terror” on the original gun owner who sold his gun they often came up really fast as to “who” they sold the gun to.”
          If it was a legal sale there’s no squeezing or terror needed. Police go to the original seller and he says I sold it to Bob. They then go talk to Bob, and on down the line. It’s called old fashioned police work.
          Though the ATF does seem to putting one together on the down low.

          http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2010/12/robert-farago/does-the-atf-already-have-a-national-gun-registry/

          Perhaps that’s why the powers that be are so hot for universal background checks. To help fill out their back door registry. Unfortunately governments don’t have a great history recently of responsible use of personal information.

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