In an opinion piece at the Los Angeles Times, the editors write that national reciprocity for concealed carry permits is a bad, bad thing. They argue — if that’s the right word — that the big bad federal government shouldn’t force poor little California to do something the California government (largely controlled by the LA Times and other “progressive” media”) does not want them to do. Namely respect the Second Amendment even in a partial, half-hearted way.

The reciprocity movement is nothing more than an effort to drive states’ concealed-carry laws to the lowest common denominator. Consider Utah, for instance.

To qualify for a Utah permit, which is available to nonresidents and is already accepted by 36 other states, one need only be 21 years old, not be deemed ineligible under federal laws (no felony conviction or history of drug and alcohol abuse, for instance) and complete a Utah-certified Weapons Familiarity course, which can be taken outside the state.

In fact, Utah has certified 169 instructors in California alone. Utah’s limited restrictions have made the issuance of concealed-carry permits something of a cottage industry for the state. Two-thirds of Utah’s 632,276 permits as of the end of last year were in the hands of nonresidents.

By comparison, California — with 33 times Utah’s population — has only 79,834 active concealed-carry permits, according to the state attorney general’s office. Among other things, California has a more stringent training regimen and requires a person seeking a permit to show good-cause for needing to carry a concealed weapon.

The editorial board seem oblivious to the fact that Utah has a murder rate of 1.8 per 100,000 people, one of the lowest of any state. California has a murder rate of 4.8 per 100,000 people. The Times also fails to mention that people who may legally carry firearms are less likely to commit crimes than police officers. They are far less likely to commit crimes than the general population.

The LA Times editorial board is, in effect, bragging about how much the State infringes upon the Second Amendment rights of California citizens. They’re pleading with President Donald Trump and those nasty Republicans not to take away their progressive power trip pleasure, citing the Pyrrhic victory that was the Heller ruling

In its 2008 Heller decision (which we think was wrongly decided), the Supreme Court ruled that the 2nd Amendment confers on individuals the right to own a gun for protection in the home. But it also recognized the rights of lower-level governments to regulate guns, and since then has declined to hear appeals of lower court rulings upholding local and state gun regulations, including those barring carrying weapons, concealed or otherwise, outside the home.

But we can’t be confident the Supreme Court will continue to defer to the states. Reasonable minds in Congress need to head this off before the NRA and its legislative acolytes make American even more dangerous by undercutting reasonable gun controls.

I don’t think those words mean what the Times thinks they mean. Wants them to mean. Here’s hoping National Reciprocity passes into law, forcing The LA Times and like-minded statists to face the reality that is the full-incorporated Second Amendment to the United States Constitution.

©2016 by Dean Weingarten: Permission to share is granted when this notice and link are included.

Gun Watch

81 Responses to The LA Times: National Reciprocity is A Bad, Bad Thing

  1. Gotta love that fake news. As much as systems like IL are a pain in the ass, having a “shall issue” permit system without a literacy test would be a huge middle finger to the statist establishment there. Even with their current system it seems like those who shouldn’t carry do so anyways…………..

  2. I hope national reciprocity passes and CA politicians have conniptions. Allowing the responsible citizen to be armed?! Perish the thought.

    • …And that NJ (Democrat) pols have a stroke….although local range opinion is that NJ will not allow out of state permits for NJ residents that cannot get CCW permits, available only to LEOs and the politically connected….best wishes to the rest of you in the other 49…

      • New Jersey has zero control over whether or not its citizens can obtain non-resident permits from other states.

        • My main question is does this new proposed law mean that if I live in NJ and get a Utah permit that I can now carry in NJ?

    • In all seriousness I am wondering to what extent individual states would give a giant middle finger to national reciprocity and arrest/prosecute armed non-residents anyway. Even if an armed non-resident ultimately prevails at their trial, they will be financially ruined … having been in jail for days, weeks, or months causing them to lose their job/business as well as tens of thousands of dollars in defense attorney fees.

      Think about it: we already have national reciprocity for carrying a firearm and ammunition in the trunk of your car (Firearm Owner’s Protection Act of 1986) … but that doesn’t stop New York from jacking-up people anyway. And I have even heard of New Jersey or New York City (I forget which) jacking-up law enforcement officers from other states who carry during vacation (in spite of the Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act). Why would states like New York suddenly respect a National Reciprocity law for concealed carry?

        • So far, I like what I see with this, but my concerns are what uncommon_sense’s is – We simply cannot underestimate the lengths the antis *will* go through to fvck with us on this.

          To the point where it will be a good idea for *us* to wear body cams and live-stream our interactions with LE in some areas.

          Ralph, I hope you are right on this, but I fear it’s gonna be problematic for least a while.

          (An aside – Just finished the first chapter of helmet for my pillow. The author can flat *write*. Thanks for suggesting it…)

        • @Geoff PR, you’re welcome. “Helmet” is a great book. Leckie and Sledge were amazing people. They both died in the same year. You know, I don’t think they make them like that anymore.

        • A nice, tidy five page bill? Yeah, that’s what Congress is known for.

          Watch how this balloons into a fifty page monstrosity as it makes its way through the sausage factory, robbing you of far more than it nominally gives back (how’s that FOPA working out for you? Ask Gregg Revell). And that’s before President “Let’s Make a (crooked) Deal!” Trump gets involved. You’ll be sorry….

        • Just read through the bill. It unfortunately won’t help NJ residents, as a permit can be used in any state the issues CCW permits “except the State of residence of the person”.

          You can bet your arse that the NJ government will still keep may-issue permitting, even though visitors to the State will be able to carry.

          Thank goodness I’m moving to PA.

        • The bill reads reads “or is entitled to carry a concealed firearm in the State in which the person resides”.
          NJ-EMT, you probably got it wrong, which is good. This part is referring to those Constitution carry states that don’t issue a CCW permit. The resident requirement is not in the license/permit part.
          My 2 cents.

      • In short, because denial of civil rights under color of law is a federal crime, and without Obama, Holder, Lynch to look the other way, the statist piggies and their handlers might themselves see the inside of a prison cell.

        • A precedent setting action by DOJ’s Civil Rights Division will probably be necessary to get the attention of states like CA, NJ, NY & MA.

      • I agree that passing a law won’t make progressive states respect our rights any more than having the 2nd amendment in the Bill of Rights explicitly state that that right ‘shall not be infringed’. Why would they respect a law when they routinely show their contempt for the Constitution? However, in the case you stated, the civilian who’s rights were infringed would have one hell of a settlement coming after the lawsuit. I don’t see them going that far, but I do see the likelihood that being caught in a gun friendly state with your concealed gat could get you some serious harassment. For starters, I’d expect to spend 3 days in custody while they confirm the validity of your permit, or at the very least maybe walk away with a few hundred dollars in bogus traffic tickets.

        National reciprocity is not the panacea some of us think. But it would be nice to hear the bed wetting libs squeal some more. Maybe in a few generations they’ll come around when they fail to see any blood in the streets.

        • The only way you will get progressive politicians to obey the law regarding the second amendment is to if necessary fine them personally. Not the office they work out of but their personal bank account.
          That is the only thing that will get their attention.

          The anti-gun progressives are just like the White Citizens Council from the 1950s. It took personal financial loss before things began to change in the south. The west and the north east will have to learn the same lesson.
          Perhaps they will need their home or other property being taken as payment for violating someone’s gun civil rights. This has happened before.

        • @Gov, I promise you this. If national reciprocity passes, I will put a good legal team in place and personally test the bill in NYC.

          I haven’t seen the inside of a NYC holding cell in over 50 years. I’m getting all nostalgic just thinking about it.

        • Ralph, just make sure you follow the letter of the NY Safe Act when you do, because just because they’re forced to honor your permit doesn’t mean you can flaunt their laws. Which BTW is another way they could combat this – make the laws in their states an even more confusing labyrinth than they already are, so one little slip up and you get to be a convicted felon. Just because you had to go and push it, now didn’t you? Tread carefully, my friend. If you’re ever in Iowa bring your gat, we’ll go (armed) to the bar and have a few drinks. I’ll buy the first round. We’re a little friendlier around here than they are in NY.

  3. I used to look for the same stupid buzzwords: Reasonable, Common Sense, Sustainable.

    Now I just hope that CA POS’s finally secede so that we can get our real estate back. It would be like the Oklahoma Land Rush of 1889. Sooners’ll get the most scalps.

  4. I live in California and have an LTC. I have never shot anyone, I am a responsible and safe shooter and would only ever draw my firearm to to stop a threat to my or someone else’s life. I had to submit to a LiveScan, CADOJ BG check, in-person interview with the local Sheriff Department, pay the Sheriff Department close to $200.00 in fees, take a multi-hours long class, pass a written exam, a shooting test demonstrating my proficiency and accuracy with all of my carry pistols at 3, 7, 10 and 15 yards. I have insurance against both criminal and civil charges against me should I stop a threat to my life.

    The only reason I can think of that the State of California doesn’t want me or others like me to have the ability to protect my own life is that they ultimately want me to be defenseless and completely dependent on them for everything. California is the ultimate statist’s dream. I need to get out of this state as soon as possible, then work heard to ensure that the cancerous tyranny that has enveloped this state doesn’t continue to spread to other states.

    • I thought the same, article ranted on and on about what this would mean, just releasing freedom to run wild, without ever addressing the obvious question, “so what?”

    • “The only reason I can think of that the State of California doesn’t want me or others like me to have the ability to protect my own life is that they ultimately want me to be defenseless and completely dependent on them for everything.”

      Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding!!! You win the Captain Obvious award for the day!

  5. “To qualify for a Utah permit … one need only be 21 years old, [have a clean criminal record], and complete a Utah-certified Weapons Familiarity course …”

    And this is inadequate because … ?????? (crickets)

    Oh, I know, because your average John Doe does not have the same rigorous training that police have with firearms — having gone through years, er I mean months, uh weeks? … nope, how about days! … sigh, hours of training that our demi-god police have.

    Once again, Progressives demonstrate that they see and interact with the world based on altruism, fantasy, and emotion. In the Progressive mind: of course all police officers are super-duper experts on firearms handling and safety (altruism and fantasy) and we must not allow anyone else to handle firearms because they will be dangerous (emotion)!

  6. Overwhelming cognitive dissonance.
    Claiming that recognizing other state’s permits would “make America even more dangerous” while overlooking the fact that the states issuing them are safer than California.

    How’s that for “good cause”?

  7. I not only want national reciprocity, I want Federal preemption.

    National reciprocity without preemption will be eroded by the slave states using a multitude of local gun regulations.

    At a minimum, Federal preemption should apply to all interstate highways and all areas near the highways needed for rest, refueling, and food.

    • +1…I was just thinking the same, exact thing. If Federal law says you cannot own a Modern Sporting Rifle, State law does not over rule it…so If Federal law says that you can, state law should be preempted.

      • Pre-emption as a general topic is bad news; we have 50 states for a reason, and the Federal government overriding their citizens’ rights to self-govern is evil incarnate.

        BUT — if you’re talking about enforcement of one of the specified rights laid out in the Bill of Rights? Federal pre-emption is absolutely mandatory there. That is one of the few cases where federal pre-emption is necessary and obvious.

        • …and required by the 14th Amendment (just like gay marriage)… maybe…depending on the future structure of the SCOTUS.

  8. Just for the record, I don’t think national reciprocity is the fight we should focus on right now. That being said, I want this to pass just to shove it right up the statists asses.

    • I’m around the same place. I’d rather see the courts settle the matter as a Constitutional rights issue if it is to be dealt with federally. A federal law not only further reduces the power of states but can be turned back easily.

      That said… screw it. Pass it in January, let the Democrats realize that elections have consequences and they lost this one badly.

      • If National Reciprocity passes, it will be challenged by states like California, Hawaii, New Jersey and New York, and will find itself in front of SCOTUS for a constitutional decision.

    • Agreed. But it will distract them from fighting the HPA.

      Set fire to the barn, to distract the farmer, in order to easily steal some chickens from the coop.

  9. IT’S worst than that. CA does not recognize various states because of lack of training in both law & proficiency. So the offending state denies CA as well. Basically a tit for tat, cannot lawfully self protection because CA has a higher standard.

    While I firmly believe CA requirements are too high, there is NO reason other states should disregard a higher standard.

    • I don’t think they are choosing to disregard the higher standard, so much as engaging in protectionism for their own population. Why should we allow their X into our territory if they don’t let our X into theirs?

      It’s impacted my career, because of the vagaries of state professional licensing practices, but I can’t say I blame them.

      • Yep. Remember when the lefty (corrupt as hell) AG tried to nix the reciprocity so that no one from other states could carry there? Well, she had to turn back because of the outcry when other states began to respond in kind to PA.

      • A state looks at their licensing and notes another state has high bar to qualify and should accept the CCW. Its not a difficult concept and one that would likely allow a CA CCW across the nation except that Northeast hell hole corridor where gun rights go to die.

        • Hannibal is dead on. California has some of the highest requirements, which includes a very detailed personal history of any and all arrests, etc., a background check against national databases, up to 16 hours of training, which includes up to 8 hours of classroom time devoted to safe weapons handling and the law of self-defense, and 8 hours of range time, some counties require a passing score on a shooting test, and there is a personal interview with a sheriff’s deputy to establish the good cause requirement. The Sheriff may require a mental health examination (the same as conducted for police officers), and some departments (in the “virtual no issue” jurisdictions) send out investigators to interview your three to six personal references and your neighbors. After all this, not one single state that requires a CCW recognizes a California CCW–because California does not recognize any CCW from any other state. Yeah, it’s political.

  10. Dineyland and Hollywood, both in California. Theses two are the primary centers of FANTASY in America. Surprised at the lack of logic in Cali?…………WHY?!?

  11. As I understand it, full reciprocity will exist only for people who have CCWs issued by their state of residence, and limited reciprocity of non-res permits. Which means that all the tourists with CCW will be able to carry in California, but only 79000 of its own citizens. Fancy that. And Californians getting out of state non-res permits won’t be any more helpful than it is now. I’ve read that it takes about four different non-res permits to get most of the country.

    • Imagine if residents of places like NJ realized that anyone from places like TX can legally carry in NJ but they, the NJ residents, can’t. That might have some interesting political ramifications.

    • “all the tourists with CCW will be able to carry in California, but only 79000 of its own citizens”

      Now you understand why the slave states will fight this to the death. How will the Democrats be able to explain why honest taxpayers in their states can’t carry while tourists and people who are just passing through carry at will?

      When I visit Boston, it brings me great joy to know that I carry there even though I don’t live there and don’t pay Boston taxes. Meanwhile, Bostonians, who pay through the nose, are disarmed by the thieves who tax them.

      It’s beautiful!

      • Ralph,

        “How will the Democrats be able to explain why honest taxpayers in their states can’t carry while tourists and people who are just passing through carry at will?”

        I honestly don’t believe the Democrats give a rat’s @ss in states like Hawaii, California, New York, New Jersey, and Maryland where they have a lock on their local politics. Take California for example where the Democrats have a rock-solid majority in the legislature and of course occupy the Governor’s office. What do they care if 200,000 voters around San Francisco and Los Angeles are furious because they cannot get concealed carry licenses?

        Actually, I think Democrats will view national reciprocity as a significant opportunity because:
        (1) Democrats can blame it on Republicans, and
        (2) Democrats will expect it to energize their voting base and even secure some fence-sitters … and get a much stronger turn-out at the next election and possibly retake the U.S. House and Senate. At the very least it will further solidify the Democrats’ strangle-hold of state politics in the likes of Hawaii, California, New York, New Jersey, and Maryland.

        • As long as Trump puts three (or more) decent judges on the SCOTUS, one of which replaces Gins[burger for brains], the rats can have the House and Senate back.

        • For that, they need them to retire or expire, and it will be a cold day in hell before the left-leaning ones give Trump the satisfaction of choosing their replacement…

        • Well then they can pull a Scalia. No way Ginsberg makes it another four years and she’s the one I’d really like to see leave.

          Personally I’d hope that hell is hot when she gets there.

  12. Even with national reciprocity, carrying in California would be a nightmare. Since those carrying still have to follow state regulations, wouldn’t non-residents still need to carry a neutered gun that’s on the state-authorized list? Lord have mercy if you buy a new gun that doesn’t meet all the microstamping or other regs, and carry it into California.

    I imagine if they have national reciprocity shoved down their bureaucratic throats, the local PDs will make it their mission to skewer as many non-residents as they can for carry violations.

    • The only requirement is that one not have in his possession (outside of a locked container that falls within FOPA) magazines with a capacity in excess of 10 rounds. The Roster of Handguns applies only to FFL sales, not handguns brought into the state by people who move here with them, or private party sales, or intrafamilial transfers. The mag limit is a different Penal Code provision.

  13. Utah is there “example.”

    They failed to recognize that you can only get a Utah CHL if you have a CHL in your state of residence first.

    • Not quite the case. Here’s the word from Utah itself:

      “Non-resident proof of permit. If you reside in a state that recognizes the validity of the Utah CFP or has reciprocity with Utah, you must obtain a CFP or CCW from your home state and submit a copy of it with your application for a Utah permit. For a list of reciprocal states click here. You are considered a resident of whichever state issued your ID. If your state does not recognize the Utah permit this does not apply.”

      That means this is only useful for people from states without reciprocity with Utah. Which means that the L.A. writer didn’t do his homework, which no longer surprises me; journalists today seem to do “research” about on par with what freshmen in high school can get away with for a passing grade.

      I also note that Utah’s permit process still requires one to be treated like a criminal in order to exercise a natural right.

  14. Los Angeles? If I recall correctly, Los Angeles has been voted the world’s most hated city more than once. I once watched a movie at a theater that simulated LA sliding into the ocean, and the crowded theater cheered profusely. I can list hundreds of reasons that reinforces why LA has the coveted “most hated city” award, so it is appalling to hear the LA Times lecture free Americans about an important freedom guaranteed by our Constitution. I can honestly say that I would support Southern California being ejected from the union.

    • Problem is, Southern California is still plain awesome in so many ways. God really blessed that place with perfect climate, beaches, mountains….. Encouraging people from everywhere to move there. So you can get ANY food, ANY music, ANY anything, 24 hours a day every day. For, like, 2 bucks., served with a smile.

      Then the progressives, like those insults to humanity that mostly comprise the LA times, moved in….. And unlike back in the civilized era, decent people no longer had a western frontier to bolt for, to avoid the ever encroaching scumbags..

  15. CA has a sanctuary state movement afoot. The day he’s sworn in the new president needs to turn the DOJ and the US Marshals service loose on the CA pols signing on to this legislation. Arrest them all for criminal conspiracy, like any other gang.

    Have the federal .gov take over the state, recievership of a sort, and restore civil rights to Americans. They did it in the 1860s and then 90 years later to restore civil rights in the southern states.

  16. Any state that does not recognize other states CCPs should not have their drivers’ licenses recognized out of state.

    Every Californian, Marylander, Jersey-ite, and Mass-hole driving into a free state should be pulled over and arrested for driving without a valid license.

    • Nor should their gay marriage licenses. This would really incense those states if for example the gay NY population on vacation were arrested down on South Beach like back in the old anti-miscegenation days. I say this a bit sarcastically because forcing gay marriage down the throats of states that did not want it is exactly what the Trump administration and the new Supreme Court should do to those same states by forcing national reciprocity down their self-same throats. The 6 or 7 states need to be shown in the harshest way that if you push your agenda on everyone else by using the Supreme Court, others can and will do the same to you. It has been a one way street of nonsense from a few large cities in a handful of states for decades, and it will accelerate like a snowball going downhill if it is not blocked during the next 4 years.

      • Which citizens of which states are responsible for the politicians in their state? Unless the citizens of states other than the ones you named can vote (in or out), the politicians in those named states, the yes, let the people who elect politicians pay the price for their choices.

  17. So if this passes, what are the odds that California goes full retard and tries to do away with permits and concealed carry altogether, so that they won’t have to honor other states permits?

    • Slim. That would mean that CA would become “no issue,” which would be contrary to MacDonald. Plus all the Hollywood and political types who have CA permits in LA or SF would have to give them up — not likely gonna happen.

      No, instead they’ll bitch, moan, whine, and hassle out-of-state CHL/LTC carriers whenever possible . . . until some of the local constabulary get rung up for some serious shekels for violating the National Reciprocity law. Only then will they think about treating it seriously.

  18. Doesn’t using Utah as an example really undercut their argument? I mean, if Utah’s permit requirements are so dangerously lax, then why do three-quarters of the other states accept it?

  19. This article is a great example of why there is a “commerce clause”, why things like marriage certificates and driver’s licenses are recognized across state lines; preventing one (or several) states from waging war on the others because of differing “standards”, or even different currencies. Actually, reconciling interstate activity is the justification for so much federal law pushed down upon the states. The founders were much concerned about attempts to regulate commerce across the colonies/states. Such federal power was seen as absolutely necessary to avoid interstate war, and simultaneously a great danger to the sovereignty of individuals and the states.

    Reciprocity of gun permits seems to be the hammer that settles 2A issues, almost completely. But for those who travel (even today) with guns, the different standards (laws/regulations) of the states precludes smooth transport and use. It may even make the entire US like NJ in that it will be so easy to run afoul of some rule. Will permit holders really take the time to read (much less understand) every ordinance where they can end up with their guns?

    Not expecting a smooth implementation or continuation.

    • Actually “full faith and credit clause”
      Article IV, Section 1.
      Full Faith and Credit shall be given in each State to the public Acts, Records, and judicial Proceedings of every other State. And the Congress may by general Laws prescribe the Manner in which such Acts, Records and Proceedings shall be proved, and the Effect thereof.

      My marriage certificate, my divorce, my contract and my court judgment are good in all 50 states and the District of Columbia.
      – See more at: http://constitution.findlaw.com/article4.html#sthash.NomG0pBa.dpuf

      • Y’know, I graduated from a nationally accredited law school after three years of study, then I passed a bar exam that included a multi-state part, then I went through an intensive background check (more like an investigation), then I swore an oath and was admitted to the Bar of the State of New York,

        But my license wasn’t valid in any other state.

        Somehow, I don’t think that “full faith and credit” means what you think it means.

  20. Hey, fair enough. Is the LA Times also suggesting the repeal of the federal Guns Free School Act as well?

    And surely they don’t support federal universal background checks when states are free to decide on their own whether to impose that…

  21. Coastal elites shaking in their boots at the thought. This alone is worth the act to pass. Living (if one can call it that) in the FASCIST controlled cesspool called Kalifornia, truly SUCKS.

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