charlottvehicleattack

Those of us who have been around a while have the graphic 1992 attack of Reginald Denny burned into our psyche. In recent days, we’ve been treated to footage from Charlotte, North Carolina, scenes of violent troublemakers blockading traffic, then looting tractor-trailers and attacking motorists based upon the skin color of their drivers.

What happens if that’s you in one of those cars? What would you do? If your instinct is to pull out your heater and start administering some ballistic dissuasion, you need sit down and think about things dispassionately.

Professor Glenn Reynolds (a.k.a. Instapundit) found himself suspended from Twitter for posting “Run them down” in response to crowds blockading Interstate I-277, I-85 and other local streets.

instapundit-tweet-charlotte-riots-e1474549763280

It’s worth noting that professor Reynolds clarified his original “Run them down” post with some explanation of its meaning. He noted Twitter’s character limit handicaps the ability to include nuance. Here it is from Instapundit:

But riots aren’t peaceful protest. And locking interstates and trapping people in their cars is not peaceful protest — it’s threatening and dangerous, especially against the background of people rioting, cops being injured, civilian-on-civilian shootings, and so on. I wouldn’t actually aim for people blocking the road, but I wouldn’t stop because I’d fear for my safety, as I think any reasonable person would.

Professor Reynolds’ Twitter account was re-instated in short order, but it raises an interesting question for everyday Americans: in what circumstances could you either use a firearm to extricate yourself from a mob blockading traffic, or press down the accelerator to “run them down,” to quote the good Professor?

What’s the best way to win a gun fight? Don’t be there. Ditto for any confrontation. Our own RF asked in the DeSantis Gunhide Question of the Day, “Best Gun for Personal, Property Defense During a Riot?” If you find yourself outside of your home or business with a gun in your hand, there are some important questions you should have thought about ahead of time. Your family’s health, wealth and ability to earn an income will depend on you knowing the legalities of using deadly force justifiably in such an instance.

The same rules apply here as would apply if you’re in your car or on foot in a dangerous situation. If you’re at home, you have a bit of wiggle room, but the fundamental rules apply.

Avoid the area of the unrest if at all possible. De-escalate if you can. De-escalation includes retreat if you can do it safely. While retreat isn’t demanded in many jurisdictions, it surely looks good to investigating officers, prosecutors, and jury members should you eventually find yourself in the sights of a subsequent (possibly politically-motivated) prosecution.

In general, you can only use deadly force when you face a legitimate risk of death or great bodily injury. Attorney Andrew Branca, the well-known expert on self-defense law and author of the excellent book “Law of Self Defense, 3rd Ed.” wrote this over at Legal Insurrection puts it this way:

In short, one would apply the usual five elements of a self-defense justification to evaluate such a use of force against others, just as in any other instance of self-defense.  Those elements are, of course: innocence, imminence, proportionality, avoidance, and reasonableness.

When all required elements are present, the use of force was legally justified. If any required element is missing, whatever that use of force might have been it was not lawful self-defense.

One of the challenges to legally justifying the use of force against highway blockades is the element of imminence. Do people who are merely blocking a roadway represent an imminent threat against which some defensive force might be justified?

A second challenge is the element of proportionality.  That is, if the force contemplated to be used against them is one’s vehicle, this will almost always constitute deadly force–that is, force capable of causing death or grave bodily injury.   Deadly force can be used in self-defense only the force with which you are threatened also constitutes deadly force.

Unfortunately, persons merely blockading a highway do not inherently represent an imminent deadly force threat–simply blocking a roadway cannot normally cause death or grave bodily harm to those injured.  As a result, using one’s vehicle to “run them down,” or even to physically push them aside, is unlikely to be legally justified unless there is some additional threatening conduct.

It is also worth noting that if you respond to even a legitimate threat that is non-deadly in nature with a deadly force response, it’s quite possible that you will be deemed the deadly force aggressor, even if the other party was the non-deadly force aggressor.  In that case the other party could well be legally justified in using deadly defensive force against your deadly force aggression.

Chilling, right?

Branca goes on to explain what happens when rioters begin to attempt to violently or tumultuously enter cars or begin to commit arson against occupied vehicles. This is when the window to use deadly force opens.

Branca continues:

Note, however, that so far we’ve limited the discussion to using force against people who are merely blocking a roadway.  Things change dramatically if they exceed that limited conduct and being to actually direct threats or actual force against those they have blockaded.

Once a person being blockaded has been placed in reasonable fear of an imminent deadly force attack, then that person would be legally entitled to use deadly force in self-defense, including the use of their vehicle to “run them down” and neutralize the unlawful deadly force threat.

The question then is what would be required to generate a fear of imminent deadly force that would be deemed reasonable by police, prosecutors, judges, and juries.

Certainly if the protestors attempt, or reasonably appear to attempt, to forcibly enter the blockaded vehicles, this would constitute reasonable grounds to fear an imminent deadly force attack.  Such conduct would include the smashing of windows or attempts to force open doors.  The same applies to attempts to set vehicles on fire, or to flip vehicles over.

Note that a defender need not necessarily wait until the protestors have turned violent against his particular vehicle.  If they have begun threatening or using deadly force against other blockaded vehicles it is reasonable to infer that your own vehicle is likely to be next — you are, after all, legally entitled to defend yourself not just against the danger already occurring to you but also against the danger that is about to occur, that is imminent.

I caution, however, that you can’t just speculate that some danger about to occur, you must be making a reasonable inference from actual evidence (e.g., observations) around you.  “For all I knew they were about to start setting cars on fire,” is not enough, that’s mere speculation.  “I saw someone approach with a Molotov cocktail,” or “I saw other vehicles ablaze” is, in contrast, evidence from which one can reasonably infer an imminent threat.

So there you have it. Branca and others have noted a couple of excellent articles on “best tactics” for dealing with a violent mob that’s trying to attack you while in a vehicle. Again, neither recommend the firearm as anything but literally a tool of last resort: as in, you have to flee your burning vehicle after it’s been immobilized.

I highly recommend the following, as did Andrew Branca: Greg Ellifritz of Active Response Training: “Surviving Mob Attacks on Your Vehicle” From Active Self Protection: “Using a Car to Escape a Mob”. Stay safe out there.

112 Responses to Self Defense as a Motorist in a Riotous Attack

  1. If it’s between me and them I choose me. They ARE trying to kill me right? Consequences be damned…and yes Reginald Denny is burned into my memory. Should have been death sentences in that riot. Your car/truck makes a helluva’ weapon.

    • It does so long as it has freedom to move. Once you’re stuck in halted traffic, it makes a very poor defensive position, and decent fuel for a funeral pyre.

      I have no quibble with Branca on the law, or why it’s the way it is. I do note that the practical reality is that once you’re stuck your fukt.

  2. Okay, but is a car that is going 3 mph really deadly force? What about 5mph? Especially considering that the rioters\protesters do not have legal standing to block a roadway whenever they like and, therefore, should retreat upon the advance of a motor vehicle.

    • If you drive slowly into someone blocking the road, it’s the same as pushing them out of the way on foot. YOU are the aggressor. At that point, you have lost all ability to claim self defense, no matter how much it escalates. You started it.

  3. You can’t always avoid riotous crowds. The problem is when they block interstates. If you are not on the front line, you can’t just drive through them. You most likely will be a dozen or so cars back and in a center lane unable to escape. They put the women in front of the cars locked elbow to elbow then the male thugs walk between the cars looking for white folks. If I am on the front line then I will lay on the horn and start rolling. I can not concern myself with the lawbreakers that may get injured. I have a right to go forward. If I can’t escape, I will stay in my car and when they start breaking in, I will shoot to stop the threat. It takes no more thought process than this.

      • I am a motorist on the interstate obeying the law. The pedestrians are breaking the law. If they impede my progress that is false imprisonment and even kidnapping. http://injury.findlaw.com/torts-and-personal-injuries/false-imprisonment.html
        In GA, I can use lethal force against a forcible felony. Kidnapping and false imprisonment are felonies committed through the use of force of numbers. I can not simply drive around one person. http://lawskills.com/term/ga/2710/index.html

        • Excellent observations.

          I wouldn’t want to defend that chain of reasoning in court, but it seems to be a valid argument under those specific laws.

        • PK, It’s not so much a chain of reasoning as it is a way out of being kidnapped. the law is quite specific on this. The police have shown an inability to disperse mobs and protect innocents from these mobs. It is up to the individual.
          I would hate to be the cripple in a courtroom trying to sue over being run over on the interstate.
          “Mam, what were you doing in the middle of the interstate?”
          “Protesting the injustice”.
          “Was it your intent to prevent Michael in GA from being able to move?”
          “That’s right. That how we shed light on the atrocities committed against black people”.
          “Miss Shaquila Rose-Johnson, you realize that is false imprisonment and is punishable by law?”
          “Naw it aint. It’s my first amendment right! You part of the problem too! You a raciss judge!”

        • What forcible felony? Someone standing there and refusing to move is not forcible. Again: have no right to use force on someone who has not used nor threatened force on you. Get out of your car and walk the other way, you’ll stay out of court.

        • You can be forced to do something against your will without being touched.
          A group of people spanning the roadway detaining motorists is use of force to commit a felony.
          Why are you defending the terrorists?

        • “Get out of your car and walk the other way, you’ll stay out of court.”
          Just like Reginald Denny did.

      • Have you ever heard the phrase “Right of way”? It is a real thing.

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_way

        Right of way is a term used to describe “the legal right, established by usage or grant, to pass along a specific route through grounds or property belonging to another”, or “a path or thoroughfare subject to such a right”.

        […]

        …As well this phrase describes priority of traffic flow. The New Oxford Dictionary defines it as “the legal right of a pedestrian, vehicle, or ship to proceed with precedence over others in a particular situation or place”, …

  4. This is actually a good article, with only a smidgen of Boch’s usual race coding “professionally scared white guy” act.

    A mob of people is no longer human. That means protesters, looters, and perhaps most importantly, cops.

    I give a shit about humans. I want the best for them, but I would not hesitate to push my car through a wall of seething hatred that is temporarily not human if it means keeping my family safe. And it my window got broken in, I would not hesitate to send a chunk of high velocity lead out of the hole as a response and keep driving.

    I’ve seen what mobs do, and I don’t want it to happen to me or my wife. If you are part of the mob and temporarily not human… that sucks. Sorry about your broken legs or shot up face. Make better choices.

    • “This is actually a good article…”
      I agree with you, this is a pretty good article from a legal standpoint.

      “…with only a smidgen of Boch’s usual race coding “professionally scared white guy” act.”
      I don’t know if you are from Illinois or not, but your perception of John Boch is totally accurate. John is a small town guy who attended the University of Illinois at Champaign, and since then has been living in Champaign County or environs for most of his life. He is very intelligent, and most likely the smartest guy at his Guns Save Life org, which has allowed him to maintain and advance his control over the rubes for a fifteen to twenty year stretch, culiminating in conning the GSL board into crowning him executive director. Which position apparently provides him with a financial stipend, or at least the time to sit around and pump out several articles per week, based on his output at TTAG since his debut in August.

      Left out of this article, but constantly apparent from everything he has ever written, is that John firmly but mistakenly believes that the police are your friends. His entire worldview is based on the fallacy that the police are secretly on your side, and will fail to arrest, prosecute, or kill you when they show up at a crime scene where you are the legally armed citizen. Most dangerous is the fact that he peddles his cop worship swill to his own paid members. This is the Klan mentality which pervades most all-white small towns in Illinois south of Joliet. Example: “The sheriff would never do that to me, I’m one of the good guys, and everyone knows me around here.” It’s a ridiculous and ignorant false belief system, not rooted in any reality from the year 2016, but that’s the way the rubes think.

      This article has some good info. and some good points. If you listen to John’s advice when it comes to interacting with cops however, you can literally get yourself killed, because he has no idea whatsoever what he is talking about in that department. John has never been in the military, but most of the firearms training courses he has taken are put on by cops, (Massad Ayoob, Sully Sullivan, etc.) and he is usually parroting the cop worldview. John is not an operator, and he’s never been arrested or spent a night in jail. He is an educated hick, but he is just a hick, and he will never be more than what he is.

      In the political arena, John is one of the people who is personally responsible for failing to oppose all the garbage provisions in Illinois concealed carry bill in 2013, such as criminal penalties of six months or one year in jail for EVERY violation of the carry act, which gives every cop in Illinois the option to use force when interacting with armed citizens.

      John is one of the key people who sold out Otis McDonald, so any feigned concern he shows for black people is an act. He knew damn well that all the garbage put in Illinois’ carry bill by the police unions would be used to abuse blacks in Chicago, but he feels safe as long as he’s hunkered down in Champaign county. John constantly crows about how he never enters the city for any reason, but he loves to write articles about Chicago crime.

      • Hello Ken. I was wondering when you’d show up.

        For those that don’t know, Ken is a stalker of Jboch’s and gunssavelives.org’s dedicated copblocker troll. He has repeatedly called for shooting cops in tbe street for no reason beyond “they chose to be cops”.

    • Swarf touches on an important aspect which is the fact that the protestor whom you are about to assault is different from the protestor waving a blunt object near your window. Your driving into the first human isn’t intended to stop the waving by the protestor by your window. Rather it is to escape the threat from the second protestor at the risk of injury to the first. Does the doctrine of joint and several liability of each member of a mob apply here? If so then the driver need only convince the jury that the first protester was not merely an innocent third party. Instead he was a coconspirator with the second protestor and that the seconds behavior constituted a deadly threat.

  5. If I can accelerate, then I’m going to drive forward. They wanna go to the hospital because their leg got run over by a car going 5 or 10mph, that’s their choice. Regardless, the second any one of the passenger windows gets broken is when the bullets start flying.

    • Once they’ve broken your window (or attempted to brake it) it would be foolish to waste time shooting at them. Just press the pedal down further and scatter them like bowling pins. Your car is a much more effective weapon than your pistol in that scenario.

  6. As usual, I suppose the making sure that you don’t get to close to the car in front of you and boxed in by one behind is critical. Just like not going through the drive through at restaurants. I have been in a car that that was almost (or so it seemed) over turned by hooligans (drunken Ohio State University students after a Michigan game in the ’80s). Deciding what to do once they are touching your vehicle was a frightening decision to have to make even in that case where my death was probably not imminent.

      • I agree with you. No one can be forced by mob action to stay in their car or not drive away.
        This is kidnapping by mob action. The organization and its leaders putting this together should be held liable.

    • Death or serious bodily harm .

      A flipped over car definitely qualifies as the latter.

      No one is saying you have to mag-dump into a crowd of aggressors before they can react.

      Fire two shots, re-assess the threat.
      If the threat persists, rinse and repeat until it stops persisting.

  7. Step 1: Lock your doors.
    Step 2: Don’t go stupid places.
    If Stupid Places are entered inadvertently, see above article.

  8. I often think about the legal jeopardy having a suppressor in ones car might add to the aftermath of such an encounter. I sure as hell don’t look forward to enduring one or more 160dB blasts in the enclosure of a car. Why should I have to loose my hearing just because protecting it shows foresight.

  9. If somebody wants to wave signs from the side of the road for a cause they believe in fine. We are talking about people obstructing traffic as part of a mob for political ends. This is false imprisonment plain and simple and the political element elevates it to terrorism by definition. Given the gross disparity of force between a mob of people and some random motorist who they are effectively holding hostage the prudent thing to do is turn around in the median if possible and if not slow roll through if things even hint at getting physical. The Reginald Denny beating and the arson in Charlotte on the highway serve as examples of how bad unprovoked attacks can get.

    No one wants to run over a bunch of random loudmouths. However, putting yourself in the position of threatening others while counting on their decency in not crushing you like a snake in the road is a risky proposition and made a lot riskier if you start hissing and baring your fangs.

    • I disagree, there are a lot of people on this site that would probably enjoy running over some of these people. I wouldn’t but there are plenty of people that would.

      Clay

    • I believe BASHer is right.

      A mob of people have no business blocking a road and have purposely surrounded you in order to prevent you from travelling — that is cut-and-dry false imprisonment in my book.

      If:
      (1) you are walking down a sidewalk,
      (2) a crowd surrounds you against your will,
      (3) you maintain your forward momentum, and
      (4) you bump into people who have left you no opening,
      That is NOT assault and battery. Why does it matter if you are on foot, on bicycle, or in a car when you bump into people who imprisoned you against your will?

  10. What about the use of deadly force to protect innocent life? If I see a fellow driver being attacked at a “peaceful demonstration/soviet style fire sack”, what are my obligations, limitations, restrictions as a reasonable citizen with a weapon at hand, whether vehicle or firearm?

    • You have no obligation to do anything but based on what Branca said, I think if you saw somebody pulled from their car and beaten and somebody reached for your door, you would be legally justified in using lethal force.

      However, I don’t think that is quite what you are asking. Legal issues aside, I couldn’t live with myself if I saw somebody dragged from their car and I stood and watched and did nothing. I’m bringing a gun to a fist-fight, and any roaches that don’t scatter at the first shot are targets.

  11. Of course, I’m going to hit the accelerator on those animals… I mean “peaceful protestors” if I feel my family and I are threatened.

    What else am I supposed to do? Stop, get out of the vehicle and try to out run a rioting mob? Maybe, get out and make a convincing speech? Possibly pray they’ll just quit and leave us alone? Or I could just sit there and hope my son and I don’t get the Reggie Denny treatment while my girls get the Lara Logan treatment…

    Accelerator, pistol, rinse, repeat – you might not have asked to be in a fight, but you’re no less in one.

    • Lara Logan violated Rule 1: Don’t be in a stupid place.
      Then she violated Rule 3: Don’t be the only hot white chick in a mob of crazed Muslim criminals who have never seen a real woman before.

      I don’t know how much sympathy I have for her. I know she still has physical problems related to her super gang rape, but she chose to walk into the lion’s den wearing meat tenderizer.

      • Don’t think that’s what he(?) was saying…

        Frankly, unless you also carry electronic hearing protection for everyone in the vehicle, that may realistically be the better option. A face full of ABC dust out one window and a cloud of bear spray out the other would certainly muddy the waters around your vehicle.

        Of course, I’m way more likely to have a gun within arms reach than bear spray (back of car in my day pack) or fire extinguisher (also back of car, but behind the seat of my truck).

        It would be a damn mess, no matter what.

        • In order to qualify and carry spray, you have to get sprayed and run a course, which I’ve done. It hurts like a bitch, but I promise, it isn’t going to paralyze a rioting mob.

        • In order to qualify and carry spray, you have to get sprayed and run a course, which I’ve done.

          Where do you live? That’s not true in Ohio.

        • Who is talking about the military? Bear spray. Hikers carry it. And assholes. For bears. No qualifying necessary.

        • Ok, if you think skin irritation will disperse a rioting crowd, go for it.

          I honestly don’t care

        • Err, I juxtaposed two lines in that last post; it should have been “For bears. And assholes.”

          Totally different meaning…

      • Never that. A firearm is always on my hip but I would rather deploy a non-lethal option first. Assuming they are damaging my property. If they leave me and mine alone I just sit in my car lamenting my choice to drive. I have a canister I keep in my car behind the passenger seat. I have been at a party where a can got busted off and people could not leave the area fast enough.

        • The problem here is that this is an apples to oranges comparison.

          People at a party are completely different from rioters. People at the party don’t want trouble so they leave while the rioters do want trouble so they persist. Chemical crowd dispersion methods only work so long as they persist. Once they’re gone the crowd can reassemble in that spot.

          My worry with any of this is that if your car is trapped in traffic and you spray these people they leave for a bit but others get pissed that you sprayed their friends and come in. That can won’t last forever. The same problem with a gun. Once you run out of ammo the people you didn’t shoot are going to want to beat you to death.

          These situations are dangerous and, in my humble estimation, are getting more so as these people see that they can get away with more and more and therefore push it further and further. To me it seems as though this shooting was, at least in some way, caused by recent events. The cops are worried for their safety and the guy who’s not following instructions knows that cops are becoming more hesitant to shoot so he figures he can push it further. When the inevitable does happen in that situation yet another riot breaks out, this one arguably worse than others.

          If something isn’t done to dissuade these “protesters” pretty soon they’ll kill a bunch of people in a [racist] frenzy and then it could really hit the fan.

        • Strych9, I think that is fair to say. The truth is that there are too many variables to say what any of us would do. Number of protesters, position in traffic, level of violence, who is in the car with you, etc… I just know I wouldn’t want to be fighting a vehicular manslaughter, murder, brandishing, or whatever charge.

  12. RF nailed it about Mr. Denny. America watched as he was dragged out of his vehicle and bricks aimed and thrown at his head. From earlier LA riots, including Rodney King and every every riot afterward, including Ferguson and now Charlotte, shows black people, although having multiple opportunities, fail to intergrate into our society.

    The irony of black protesters begin bused in not to peacefully protest but to agitate, break laws, and chant murder of police. Actions that defile Dr. Kings legacy.

    Twenty five years later riots still occur, only difference is black people look at police defending themselves as a payday opportunity, as well as license to steal. Both encourage by a sitting and candidate for president.

    • Bricks are not a deadly weapon in a wall, at Home Depot, in the hands of a mason. In the hands of a rioter full of hatred it is a deadly weapon. This is the lesson of Reginal Denny. Rioting does not escalate incrementally. My loved ones are worth more than the flawed legal system. I will defend them regardless of the consequences.

  13. I got the new concertina wire upgrade on my SUV. Punch a button on my dash and the roof box opens rolling wire out four sides. It’s worked well so far.

  14. If current trends of civil unrest (criminal mob violence) continue, I think there may be a growing market in the USA for serious vehicle defense systems for situations like these. For starters, they would include pepper spray deployment systems with nozzles installed on the front grill of a vehicle and low-profile nozzles on the roof above the doors, pointing to the side. They already make systems for commercial vehicles that deploy gas in the cargo/vault areas.

    Where external gas systems are not legal, an alternative system might use blinding strobe lights and a deafening siren to encourage people to get away from your vehicle.

    The low budget option is a big can of pepper spray to deploy through a partially open window or moonroof. Obviously, you want to have your gun ready as backup.

  15. (Blank)ers gunna (Blank). Guess that makes the old Ford acronym more useful though…

    Folks block you in, create a harzard and you had no part in constructing that hazard, means folks get dealt with. No level of damage that can be done to a car by hvaing a human body flop over it will do to stop it moving.

    Found
    On
    Road
    Dead

    Ford, your solution to blanks blanking blanks since before blank blanked a blank.

  16. Reynolds has a blog and could have written specifics on your right of self-defense in these circumstances. He chose to do run his mouth a twitter instead. My advice i to ignore Reynolds and pay attention to people who give sound legal advice on self defense like Andrew Branca. Reynolds is a second rate guy with a blog.

    Now, as far as bearing arms for self defense goes you are going be carrying what you always carry which for many is a single stack pocket pistol or J-frame with maybe one reload. That is not kind of gun that I would want to be facing a mob with. Your first line of defense is not to go there. Take a detour, I understand that you can caught in the wrong place at the wrong time but that only happens when the riot starts. You have no excuse after it hits the news or on subsequent nights.

  17. It continues to amaze me how so many people think a human body, or even groups of human bodies, are any kind of match for a few thousand pounds of metal moving even just a few mph.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2pCgepCbm4

    The real lesson begins at 0:48. STOP, and the crowd swarms. It doesn’t take much “GO” to get past it.

    The real problem when in a car is when ALL the other drivers stop and box you in.

    Too many people lack a survival mindset. I get it; we all want to believe the others are ‘good people’ and we don’t want to hurt them. The kind of situation in Charlotte was different. Mobs and riots are different.

    If you can find a path, that 3000-4000 lbs and 150-300 HP is pretty hard to beat.

    • It depends on a variety of factors. Type of car, ground clearance, drive type, tire condition, speed, crowd density and depth…

      If you get stuck on a pile of crunchies the surviving members of the crowd will likely murder you in a way most unpleasant.

      • Fair enough…to a degree. But, what you are describing is not supported by the video evidence presented above.

        I’m leaning more toward the “they will get out of the way” side of the coin. You are very unlikely to have to actually run over a mountain of people to get stuck onto. The people in these “protests” seem to have a higher self-preservation mentality than many of the drivers…at least that’s what is shown in the videos – for the most part.

        And, the video evidence also shows that even a few bodies on the ground is no match for a car.

        Anything CAN happen, but we have to play the odds. I think the odds are clearly in favor of you being MUCH more likely to get hurt if you stop than if you don’t.

        ‘Survival mindset’ plays into choice of vehicle, too. I don’t buy vehicles based on how they look or what ‘status’ they represent to status-minded losers, for example.

        I think you are way over-estimating the durability of a human body compared to a motor vehicle. I’ve seen what a car going 55 mph can do to a body laying in the road. It ain’t pretty. And, the driver never barely knew she hit anything, much less had the kind of ‘trouble’ you describe, even though she was driving a small car with low-ish ground clearance (not some big truck or anything).

        We all roll our dice and take our chances. By virtue of EDC, we POTG tend to perform that calculus in a way foreign to many other citizens. All I’m saying is that in a riot, that 4000 lb car, truck or SUV you are sitting in is a FAR, FAR, FAR better weapon (offensively and defensively) than the handgun on your hip.

        Statistically speaking, of course.

        • I don’t disagree with what you’ve said here. I’m merely pointing out that how you choose to approach the situation should be the result of careful consideration of the factors that are present.

          IMHO, you can’t simply assume they’ll move or that your car will make it through. You have to look at the actual situation and make a judgement call. That judgement call should include the actual threat to you/your passengers and the various factors surrounding if you’ll make it through.

          Pushing through a crowd of people playing “Red Rover” with cars in broad daylight is easy. But when it’s dark, you’re under attack, fires are screwing with your night vision, the road is littered with crap looted from trucks and other vehicles, you may not have a straight shot out and vehicles are funneling a large crowd… getting stuck on looted junk and bodies is a real possibility if you try to shove your way out in a sedan or other regular old car.

        • “You have to look at the actual situation and make a judgement call.”

          True enough. That’s always this case, so I think it often goes without saying since it is a matter of ‘habit of the mind’ to view things this way.

        • “That’s always this case, so I think it often goes without saying…”

          I understand and generally agree with what you’ve said here but it shouldn’t go without saying because many people don’t think about this sort of thing and therefore in the moment don’t even know what factors to consider. One landwhale in the right spot in the crowd could get you killed when you get stuck on them.

          Risk analysis requires knowing the actual risks. Grisly as considering them may be.

        • “One landwhale in the right spot in the crowd could get you killed when you get stuck on them. “

          I am not disagreeing with your general point. Rational assessment of a trained OODA loop beats guessing, wishful thinking and blind, emotional reacting.

          But, I do disagree with this statement. One person is no match for a car. The body could be crushed, distorted or simply moved out of the way. The vehicle is far heavier, far more rigid and far more powerful.

          I’m just not buying this argument in this context at all, unless and until I see actual evidence that this DOES happen.

          Your larger point still stands, of course. No beef with that. But, lets not create, uh…mountains…out of bags of water supported by little Popsicle sticks.

      • Ram truck with a lift kit almost 7 ft. tall with a heavy duty brush guard on the front oughta do it. That said, they don’t have many of these types of incidents in my neck of the woods. They know better. And I don’t go where it does occur.

  18. If you are making me stop on a roadway full of other vehicles travelling at a high rate of speed you ARE putting my life at risk.

      • I won’t lie. I’m not the nicest person when it comes to people screwing with my dogs.

        If those were my dogs I’d have been stomping the ever living crap out of that guy right along side them. You can’t throw things at people/animals on the street when you’re in a coma.

      • “Dogs do pretty good, too:”

        Awww, that warmed me to to the sub-cockle regions of my cold, black heart to see that!

        Good doggies deserve a raw steak ! 🙂

      • That was awesome. Also, damn nice of that guy to pull his dogs off, repeatedly. Me, no way. Too dangerous. I’ve owned and worked around big dogs my whole life, and there’s just no way I’m getting down to their level or putting my hands down there once they’ve started to work. That’s like trying to stop a lawnmower by grabbing the blade.
        If my voice doesn’t get them off you, they’re done when they decide they’re done.

  19. I’m not really the type of person who looks forward to plowing through crowds, but… I have sat back and looked at my ’89 F-150 on occasion and thought:

    “Yeah, that would probably do it.”

  20. “Surrounded” by violent Leftists, Black thugs, illegal aliens, bloodthirsty Moslems and “feel” that your life and the lives of your loved ones are being “threatened”? Just “Mow ’em Down”

    Remember Liberals/Democrats/Progressives are ALL about “feelings”, NO ONE but YOU can determine what you’re experiencing or “feeling”. Never allow yourself to be “Reginald Denny-ied”.

  21. If there’s a riot going on, you probably should know the location of it prior to leaving the house if you have a TV or a radio. Or at least in route to your destination if you listen to a radio. Avoiding stupid places and all that…

    • Some of us don’t live our lives 100% glued to “the news.”

      Don’t own a TV, and often drive with the radio off as I enjoy the silence as time to think.

      Crap happens. Anyone can get caught in something anytime. Avoidance is a good rule to live by, but you can’t necessarily avoid everything.

      Dang, but I do wish that guy had never said the “stupid people, stupid places” thing. It’s nowadays taken WAY, WAY out of context, misapplied and grossly oversold.

      • If you live in/near a city where there is a riot, turn the damned radio on. It’s kind of up to you to know where to avoid. No gluing of oneself to a tv needed.

        • That’s the not point.

          If I am near a city and know there’s a riot going on, I’m avoiding the whole place…radio on or not.

          The point is you can’t avoid it when you DON’T ALREADY KNOW what’s going on.

          The deal in Charlotte sprouted up mere hours after the shooting. I live a few hour drive from Charlotte and have family and friends in the area.

          Let’s say nothing had happened and I leave my house on a road trip to visit family. Driving down the road, I have the radio off as my children, wife and I are listening to an audio book on the trip.

          Or hell…let’s say the ‘news’ has not caught up to reality yet and I DO have my frigging radio on but they are talking about some stupid NFL issue or Kim Cardassian’s favorite color of underwear….not the brewing riot I’m about to drive into.

          On our multi-hour trip, some crap gets stirred up, and it’s going by the time we get there.

          How do we know this? Is it OUR FAULT we get caught on I-85 by criminal thugs blocking the Interstate?

          The argument you guys are making places an unrealizable burden on the victims of riots. Mobs and riots can spring up very quickly, especially when they are being orchestrated.

          My sister was in the middle of a riot one time (also in Charlotte), though smaller than this. It started when a teenager who had stolen a piece of construction equipment was arrested.

          My sister was bitten by a rioter in that incident, by the way….and she was present in the location BEFORE THE RIOT STARTED and had a legal and reasonable right to be where she was at the time (she was there for work).

          We have to look at the real world and work with what it presents us. The reality is the frequency of these incidents is increasing, and those doing them are NOW making the claim they will spread ‘rioting’ out of the inner cities and into the suburbs.

          Avoidance is a key goal in life…and I get that. But, we don’t abandon Action Plans on the fantastical, unicorn fart smelling hope that we can clairvoyantly predict trouble at ever turn and magically avoid ALL threats just because we declared being where it happened a “stupid place” on the Internet.

          This is not a scripted Hollywood movie where we are the hero that can anticipant the enemy’s every move with perfect efficacy.

  22. That’s why detroit made the 4wd. Keep moving. Forward. Reverse. Sideways. Don’t matter. And if you can’t move shoot one and cut his/her head off and walk thru the crowd with the head held high.

    If I’m going to die I’m doing it as a Highlander should. Bloody and barbaric.

  23. The interesting point of these articles written by legal “experts” is that they always recommend retreat and the legal consequences of lawful resistance.

    Then later, when actually confronted personally with violence – you hear them adopt a far more hard line attitude and the nonsense stops. This is exactly the same thing that happens when individuals are beaten by a mob, or raped, and survive. Some are even assaulted more than once – but eventually they abandon their concept of being a victim and because of the school of hard knocks they rethink their previous decision.

    There was a customer in who’s neighbor on one side has been consistently taken advantage by reputed drug dealers who have cut thru his fencing and stolen all the tools in the garage. Hundreds of dollars lost – all because he would not call the cops to complain.

    If you act like a victim you ARE a victim and those who would impose themselves on you will continue to escalate. Like children they are setting up checkpoints to see if and when you will finally react. This is what Soros is doing – buying demonstrators (70% of the arrestees in Charlotte were not local, they were bused in from other state) and then pushing the envelope of behavior to provoke reactions that can and will be used in the court of public opinion. The trial is on and what is being done is to demonize white people to then enact more laws to take our rights away.

    The sad part is that a great number of people will be killed outright when push comes to shove and the white community says enough is enough. They are not the casual laid back churchgoers of yore, with housewives who stay home and bake suppers for cute children on sports teams. 70% are divorced, most avoid church, and many are tired of being constantly forced to kowtow to others by retreating or being forced to pay political obesance. It’s been said by protesters that they need to take their riots into the suburbs – but what may well happen is the suburbanites taking the riot to them.

    Maybe this is what Soros is gaming for – open civil war for the Government to crack down on and impose martial law? It will appear to be justified –

    As others have said, you don’t need to shoot protesters. Just slowly drive thru and part the seas same as any other third world event. We can discuss uparmoring vehicles later, it’s common knowledge and easy to do.

  24. In Ohio, motorists in their vehicles are covered by castle doctrine.

    If you try to harm me while I’m in my vehicle, I won’t hesitated to run over you, shoot you, or both.

    Actions have consequences. One of the potential consequences of attempted carjacking is tire tracks across, or bullet holes through your body. Don’t like that? Stay home and read a book.

  25. The fact that this even has to be a discussion on IF you can defend yourself against a mob of lawbreakers who stop you with intent to do harm, bring fear into and/or damage says a lot about the sad state of affairs in America.
    Act accordingly and be prepared for the coming aftermath as in any other defense situation. Get a real lawyer who is smart enough to use the past such as the trucker in the LA Riots, gather the videos from the ongoing situation and bring up your 8th being violated. You will have a second and perhaps larger fight on your hands so be ready.
    I wish it on no one but unfortunately it’s being brought to us in our areas we live.

  26. Having never been in this kinda shit I can’t realistically say what i’d do. I have thought about it, and much depends on who’s with me. My wife turns mean when she’s scared.
    I feel like I could drive my truck over, through, around most anything, including a lot of cars. I don’t think i’d be trapped. If i were, then there are always other options. I think i’d be OK, hope it never happens, highly doubt it will.

  27. Just once I’d like to hear about the obligations of the state to protect citizens who seek to create choas and injury. I would like to know what remedies the state offers to those who have suffered injury because of its inability or unwillingnes to take prompt and effective action against rioters, lawbreakers, and community organizers.

    In sumization if faced with these animals and knowing the government will not take the appropriate action to protect my family I will exercise my right to use that gas pedal to insure the safety of my family. Let the government prove to a jury of my peers that I wasn’t in fear of my life.

  28. I find it funny that they riot because they feel they are being stereotyped and then do the exact thing that they are stereotyped for doing. If you dont want people to see you as a thug, dont act like a thug.

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