SIG’s Modified Prone Position: Just Thought I’d Leave This Here

My mind is a font of useless information. Alexander Graham Bell recommended that people using his newfangled telephonic device answer an incoming a call by saying “Ahoy-hoy” (as Mr. Burns does in The Simpsons). And end all conversations by pronouncing “that is all.” And now I know how to shoot a SIG SAUER MCX (with a forend grip) at a bad guy from behind a tire. Given my flexibility, contorting like that would probably kill me anyway. That is all.

comments

  1. avatar David says:

    I wonder what Jeff Cooper or Massad Ayoob would say about that! I hope to never be in a position where I have to use that position! ?

    1. avatar Grumpy F'er says:

      That man has small thighs and no gut.

  2. avatar jwtaylor says:

    Except its a no go in the real world. The vehicle is at least 5 Feet wide. You have to put the gun on the ground otherwise your rounds will strike the undercarriage.
    And yes, I’ve actually done this in real combat. With the gun on the ground, it works great. Just your hand under the foregrip is enough to clear the brass from the ejection port.

    1. avatar kevin says:

      Dare we hope for a reply video? I’d kinda like to see how that would work. Seems like the shells wouldn’t clear the bolt, or would bounce back up for a malf.

      1. avatar jwtaylor says:

        Sure man, go out and make one.

        1. avatar Kevin says:

          Nah, you’re half-way to your own YouTube channel already, and nobody wants to see a schmuck like me guessing his way through gunplay.
          Do it.
          DO IT!!

          Now if you want a lawyer’s view of stupid ca gun law, I might consider it….

        2. avatar jwtaylor says:

          Well now I know I have videos on Youtube. Who knew?

    2. avatar Curtis in IL says:

      Obviously this technique is designed for rednecks crouching behind their jacked-up pickup trucks.

      1. avatar jwtaylor says:

        You actually have a point. Vehicle height’s going to make a huge difference. My experience is with up-armored HMMWVs.

    3. avatar strych9 says:

      I agree about the width of the vehicle being a general problem. You’re gonna have to have targets at a pretty good range before you won’t be aiming at/hitting the vehicle unless you’re going for knee shots.

      The other problem here is what he’s trying to hide behind. Generally if you’re engaging targets with a rifle the targets have rifles too. Now he’s trying to get all snuggley with the wheel rather than the tire. Um… most rifle rounds will penetrate that rim and hurt you and the vast, vast majority of people can’t hide behind just the wheel but rather a good chunk of them is merely concealed by the tire which rifle bullets surely penetrate for most makes/models of cars (since 9mm JHP’s go right through most tires no matter what part of the tire you shoot). Even further, his idea is a great way ensure to take any spall to the face, arm and neck in a way that creates decent wound and you pretty well completely drop out of cover when you react to it.

      Use the block of the engine or failing that, lie down with your strong side on the ground and the rifle to your strong shoulder. Resting it on your hand, as you said, is a good idea.

      1. avatar jwtaylor says:

        Rim, yes. All of the other stuff in between the shooter and you, not likely. Forward facing wheel, brake, axle, other brake, wheel. Even a 50 would deflect from that.

    4. avatar Mikial says:

      Agree with you completely. We trained on this technique when I was doing PSD work in Iraq using a couple of old, worn out Suburbans out in the desert near FOB Summerhays (K2). The way the guy in the vid is holding the rifle, he would be putting the rounds up into the center of the floor, not down range. The goal is to hit the bad guys in the lower legs or ankles, and then finish them when they fall to the ground. A single piece of plywood is not the same thing as an actual vehicle., This takes quite a bit of practice to get right.

  3. avatar Bollocks Troy says:

    That’s nothing, I like to shoot in a handstand position, like one of dem dare skunks. Really adds some style and psych out.

  4. avatar F says:

    Gunasutra coming book in the works?

  5. What? No actual car to simulate real world situation? Gotta use a plywood cutout? Sootch00 says your a wuss.

  6. avatar jwm says:

    I practice real world shooting positions. Like the one handed LazyBoy shot. Or the pants around your ankle toilet squat shot.

    You know. positions that us non operators might actually encounter in the world.

    1. avatar Charlie Dwyer says:

      I am really looking forward to your video on those positions!!!

      1. avatar jwm says:

        Try pulling a j frame from your pocket holster while your pants is piled up around your feet.

        I’m not even going into the “holdup, it’s Saturday afternoon and some moron tweaker just broke in while I was making the beast with 2 backs with my wife” shooting position. And no, you don’t want to see that video. We’re old people. But on the plus side, neither one of us has tats.

  7. avatar Matt says:

    OK. This technique is for skinny people with slinky spines.

    1. avatar NineShooter says:

      My thoughts exactly.

      Ain’t happenin’ with me.

  8. avatar Jack says:

    This article paid for itself with the Simpsons reference. Thank you for that.

  9. avatar Jolly Roger Out says:

    This isn’t a parody video? They actually expect students to use that position?

    1. avatar neiowa says:

      Its called marketing. Not 4000 PD in the US need to hire them for field training. Demo for Barney how this is done behind the squad, after eating 5000 donuts, while wearing a vest.

  10. avatar Robb says:

    W. T. F?!

  11. I love when people find a training technique and think it’s amazing, but it’s extremely specific. How many of us would ever be doing that crap?

    Also, as far as holding off for your zero with your gun tilted, it’s negligible for rounds going that fast. Gravity is taken into account, if you’re shooting that close, you’re still going to hit where you’re aiming. I’ve shot 200yd at a steel plate with my rifle bench rested sideways. Hit a 6×6 steel plate repeatedly. The bullet is out-running gravity from your 50yd zero by a huge margin.

    1. avatar Alan Esworthy says:

      Out-running gravity? You must be using the new 0-grain bullets.

      1. avatar jwtaylor says:

        I’m assuming he means travelling forward faster than it is traveling downward. The actual speed of gravity is equal to the speed of light.

        1. avatar Alan Esworthy says:

          …and you cannot outrun light if you have mass, thus my 0-grain bullet tease.

    2. avatar MadMedic says:

      Not true at all, especially at 100 meters and beyond. I’ve made consistent hits at a 300 meter target utilizing a similar technique but I was aiming off of the target over a shoulder to compensate for the different trajectory.

  12. avatar Ralph says:

    And now we know how the guy in the Daily Digest (next page) wound up with a rifle bolt up his @ss.

  13. avatar Dan V says:

    But what if someone sneaks up behind you?

    1. avatar strych9 says:

      If you’re high speed, low drag enough to use this position the guy “sneaking” up behind you is walking into your trap because your operationally operating all over that AO.

  14. avatar Michael says:

    I think he jumped the shark tank…..that is one of the dumbest operator operating operationally BS videos I have ever seen

  15. avatar Other Tony says:

    It takes a manly man to shoot with his butt in the air.

    Seriously, it does.

  16. avatar Jt says:

    This is great! You need to combine this technique with a gross motor skill reload, and then you will really have something!!
    https://youtu.be/53Jd3ltvb8k

    1. avatar strych9 says:

      Oh man, those guys are hilarious. My personal favorite is “How to fix a 1911”. Just the name “Phuc Long” cracks me up every time I see him. Well that and the way that he intentionally talks like he’s Asian as fuck.

      1. avatar 16V says:

        He’s about as convincing as ‘FPS Russia’, which is to say he’s working way too hard.

  17. avatar Ralph says:

    I never knew that doggy style was a rifle shooting position.

    1. avatar MarkF says:

      You mean your woman isn’t supposed to be holding her AR-15? Shit. I wish someone had told me that a long time ago.

      1. avatar 16V says:

        There’s an unintentional discharge joke in here somewhere…

  18. avatar Jeff Creamer says:

    I wonder if any of the commenters know who Mr. Palmer is, have taken a class with him, or researched his background?

    1. avatar Tile floor says:

      Kind of irrelevant, I don’t think anyone is bashing him completely, just this semi ridiculous position he is recommending.

      Training is a lucrative business. Consequently, trainers who want to stand out have to find something to set themselves apart from the rest, and often that comes in an unusual or unorthodox method (see: full blown Costa-brah overly exaggerated c-clamp)

    2. Wasn’t he in that movie “Get Shorty”?

  19. avatar Your Real Name says:

    I find that more useful when you do it upsidedown.

  20. avatar James in AZ says:

    So how exactly is this better than just going prone facing the threat…

    1. avatar NineShooter says:

      This ^.

      Assume forward-facing prone, rifle mounted, several feet behind wheel. Tuck-in the elbow, lean/roll to the strong side until rifle almost touches ground, engage target(s), roll back behind cover/concealment to reload or manipulate.

      Yeah, I know; the farther back you are from the wheel, the less cover there will be from multiple targets that are offset horizontally.

    2. avatar jwtaylor says:

      I can get in and out of it (minus the leg brace thing that I think ruins it all) faster than I can the prone. It provides much more cover than the prone, especially from blast and spall, such as from full auto impacts to the vehicle and the ground as well as RPG fire.

  21. avatar BenW says:

    This bears no resemblance to prone, and is really modified kneeling.

  22. avatar Dbehan says:

    Looks like he got it from Kyle Lamb.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1lEpJ7on4q4

    Start at 1:25. He uses the same technique

  23. avatar MadMedic says:

    This is a modification of a position taught in elite military circles jokingly referred to as the ‘broke back’ position (Broke Back Mountain) for the ass in the air positioning. This is the first time I’ve seen it canted this way to ‘utilize more cover’ behind the tire. The way I’ve seen it taught, and taught it, is more bent straight over, with rifle closer to the ground and utilizing the too of the head to stabilize. As previously mentioned, a hands width is enough to clear the ejecting brass, and you need to get the weapon that low to clear the width of whatever your utilizing as cover. These are battle tested techniques folks, and can be used in full battle rattle. It looks goofy as hell, but it works. Don’t be afraid to add tools to your kit bag.

    1. avatar NineShooter says:

      It looks like his polo-shirted chest is touching his thighs (vid time 2:15-2:25); I don’t see how it would be possible to assume this position “…in full battle rattle.” with a chest full of mag pouches or a thick plate-carrier/MOLLE vest padding your front.

      Watching his muzzle, it appears as though his shots are barely clearing the barricade gap as it is (with the upward angle needed); add a helmet into the mix, and raising the carbine to match the added height, and his shot WOULDN’T be clearing the wood/obstacle.

      1. avatar jwtaylor says:

        Me either, but if you do it as MadMedic describes, it works great.

        1. avatar NineShooter says:

          I guess I’ll have to try it myself.

          Assuming I can ever find a range bay with no strangers nearby, and I can collect all the cell phones and cameras from my associates and lock them in the vehicle for the duration…

      2. avatar MadMedic says:

        The way he is doing it won’t work in kit, I agree. When I have taught this technique, it is with both knees down, hunched over my weapon, behind the tire/vtac barricade. Head/helmet on the ground for stability, you place your support hand palm down and lock the weapon around/into your wrist with the magazine well. That one hand width is enough to clear the ejected rounds, though I have had rounds bounce up into the cuff of my uniform. That sucks.

        I’ve done this and taught low drag low profile Privates in the infantry how to do it, starting slick then progressing to full kit. Like I said, its a tool in the kit bag. And if you are by yourself, with no not watching your back, you’re already in a shot position. But if you are at range, 100-200 meters, seeking cover with your buddies in a kill zone and trying to return fire with minimum exposure, it’s a valise technique to have in your kit bag.

        1. avatar NineShooter says:

          Thanks for the additional comments, MadMedic; much appreciated (you too, jwtaylor).

          I have the additional “advantage” of shooting wrong-handed, so case ejection/rebound against the ground while shooting strong-handed usually isn’t a problem for me. I’ll try it righty, too, so I’ll know the limitations for everyone.

      3. avatar Mikial says:

        100% correct, This guy would be putting rounds into the underside of the vehicle if he were trying to do this for real. I always get a kick out of these internet experts who have never actually done the things they are supposedly training people to do.

        Iraq 2004 -2007.

  24. avatar W says:

    Gotta be an epic troll by Sig Sauer. This technique is slow to enter, slow to exit, and substantially reduces situational awareness.

    1. avatar jwtaylor says:

      In my actual combat experience using this a position very similar to this it is the opposite of all of those things.

  25. avatar Mikial says:

    Sorry folks, but if you look at the angle of the muzzle as he shoots, you can see that had he actually been shooting under a vehicle the rounds would have been impacting against the undercarriage of the vehicle before they ever exited out and went on toward the target. When I was doing PSD work in Iraq we used to practice this using old Suburbans that had reached the end of their useful life cycle, and in practice you have to ensure you have a very flat muzzle trajectory in order for the rounds to actually clear the understudy of the vehicle.

    Plywood mock-ups are one thing, but the real deal can be very different. If you ever have to use this technique, your goal is to shoot the other guy’s ankles out for under him so that he falls to the ground, and then put a couple of rounds into his body.

  26. avatar Geo says:

    More cringeworthy and overused blog statement. “I’m just going to leave this here” or “just saying”?

    1. avatar NineShooter says:

      “Just sayin'” is still in the lead, but the challenger is gaining rapidly.
      “I share your pain” at their repeated use.
      Ain’t nobody got time for that.
      Word.

      🙂

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