Chattanooga shooting scene (courtesy nydailynews.com)

Open letter by the undersigned [via Ammoland.com]

In the wake of the Islamic terrorist attack in Orlando,Florida, NRA-ILA leadership has offered support for legislation in Congress supporting secret government “no-guns” lists, with no provisions for due process, no removal from the secret list, and no criminal penalties for abuse of the list.

Secret list abuse, as the recent IRS scandals have shown, is all too common in the U.S. government.

NRA-ILA leadership also endorsed, on national television, the unsafe notion that bars and “night clubs” should be gun free.

Grass roots gun owners reject secret no guns lists, and reject support of so-called “gun free zones”, and we call on NRA-ILA to abandon support for these proposals and return to supporting the 2nd Amendment, gun owners, and the right to self defense.

We urge the NRA-ILA to work towards enhancing concealed carry reciprocity, among the states, and eliminating so-called “gun free zones”.

  • These so-called “gun free zones” kill people. They are exactly what terrorists want; a target-rich environment with no one who can mount an effective defense.
  • In 34 states it is legal to carry firearms into establishments that serve alcohol, and this has not proven to be a problem.
  • An overwhelming majority of mass killings in America occur in so-called gun free zones.
  • Secret government lists have been the hallmark of tyrannical, murderous governments throughout history.

All American gun owners want a safe America, but we won’t be safer with another secret government list, nor by making it more difficult for responsible gun owners to protect themselves and their families.

We, the grass roots American gun owners reaffirm:

  • There is NO acceptable gun free zone in America.
  • There is NO acceptable secret government list for government use to approve or deny the sale of firearms.
  • There is NO acceptable magazine or feeding device capacity limit.
  • There is NO acceptable prohibition on owning or legally using any semiautomatic rifle.
  • There is NO acceptable prohibition on responsible gun owners who wish to carry their firearms in any of the States, Territories or federal district of the United States of America.
  • There is NO acceptable restriction on private sale of firearms between law-abiding Americans.

In the wake of the Islamic terrorist attack in Orlando, Florida, grass roots gun owners will work to end the scourge of gun free zones, increase reciprocity and recognition of citizen’s’ right to carry across America, and oppose any new restrictions on the right to keep and bear arms.

We will be prepared, we will train, we will be ready, and we will vigilantly defend our freedom.

We call upon gun bloggers, activists, trainers, members of the firearms industry, gun owners, and anyone who enjoys freedom, to support rolling back restrictions on responsible gun owners and opposing attempts to pass ineffective, “feel good“, gun restrictions.

Respectfully,

64 Responses to Gun Rights Groups to NRA-ILA: Don’t Support “Gun Free Zones” and “No Fly, No Buy” List of ANY Kind

  1. Arbitrary (no probable cause requirement) government lists will be the beginning of the end for freedom.

    • The NRA version of the bill has probable cause and due process. (which is why the democrats don’t want to vote it)

      • Probable cause to investigate not to deprive . Who accepts liability when the citizen is accosted or murdered because they are unable to effectively defend themselves with every legal resource because they had their firearm confiscated under PROBABLE cause . Probable cause is still only suspicion , right ?

      • The RINO/NRA version of the bill includes the government having the ability to deny the sale for 72 hours while they find probable cause to deny the sale altogether, after which you are allowed due process to appeal. Right?

        For starters, the very existence of NICS is a violation of the Second Amendment. Using NICS to arbitrarily deny sale for 72 hours while the government conducts a probable cause investigation is unconstitutional. Requiring the citizen to then prove they are innocent, at their own expense, is UNCONSTITUTIONAL.

        “…shall not be infringed.”

    • This is why I dropped out of the NRA over 20 years ago. They refused to fight & and fight the wrong battles than send out fund raising letters for the real fight that never came!

    • Pay attention. The NRA IS certainly the largest and most influential gunrights org in the US/world. Certainly “living rent free inside the heads” of the progrards in DC. You’re apparently either living in 1980 or uninformed.

      • The fact that the NRA is the largest and most influential gun right organization does NOT mean that we should not hold their feet to the Constitutional fire when they are WRONG.

        If the NRA can lobby Congress, we can lobby the NRA.

    • I’m an NRA member.(meh) The other gun control group, just softer and sqishier than the MDA, that compromises on our gun “privileges”, at least, in their view. The fact that they are proud of supporting the NICS system says it all.

      But I am proud to say I am also a member of the GOA. The no -compromise gun rights group.

      I called the NRA-ILA and told them that.

      • I am in a similar boat, I recently informed them that myself and my family members would be dropping our memberships and doubling down on SAF if they were going to comprise on my Constitutionaly-acknowledged, God-given rights.

      • The fact that they are proud of supporting the NICS system says it all.

        Yes, FINALLY, someone who gets it.

        The NRA has been fairly good about fighting restrictions on TYPES of guns. They’re horrible on the issue of unconstitutionally controlling access to guns; there’s a big fat wide piss-yellow streak of “guns are only for us good guys” running down their bellies.

  2. You forgot machine guns for all…and now I see a list the gubmint can go after. Yeah I wish the NRA was better-still the big dog. Should I re-up my recently lapsed membership?

    • First of all, I love your posts and respect you greatly for them.
      “Should I re-up my recently lapsed membership?”
      Yes
      Why?
      Cuz’ ears like those of Paul “Eddie Munster” Ryan ain’t ever heard of ‘formerwaterwalker’ but maybe, just maybe they may think twice after hearing from NRA-ILA.

      • Good to know I’m loved! Methinks my $ will go better with GOA…or Illinois gun rights.

        • Do that also but knowing that, by comparison, those guys have about an much influence as has the National Alliance of Redhead Left handed Gardeners on regulations pertaining to the export of transparent aluminum.

        • Yes FWW, loved!! Please, more African Queen stories! And illegally carrying revolver in California stories!!

  3. Sometimes I wonder if terrorists, mass shooters, etc. choose gun free zones or if there are just so many of them that the odds are with them that their killing field will be a GFZ. Either way no GFZs.

    • I think chosen .
      Here is how we find out the answer and solve the problem at the same time .
      Outlaw public Gun Free Zones and ………………………….
      arm ourselves and train for reaction .
      Has anyone not considered what they would do on a plane if someone tries to take it over , since 9/11 ?
      Americans need to alter their mentality and become 9/11 prepared at all times .

  4. There are no acceptable restrictions on the keeping and bearing of arms (period).
    Exactly which part of …Shall not be infringed don’t people get?

  5. The kind of “due process” being proposed by the new list is laughable. Judges routinely rubber-stamp any police request for no-knock home invasions so why would any kind of due-process connected to this kind of law be any different? Any bureaucratic intrusion into a constitutionally guaranteed right is bad enough, but as America’s law-enforcement and “security” infrastructure has expanded over the years, it has also become correspondingly more corrupt. Giving this kind of power to any corrupt bureaucracy is always dangerous. The NRA is experienced enough to realize that this is a slippery slope every bit as dangerous as the original “assault weapon ban”.

    A good antidote for “gun free zones” is to make the organization, business, or school legally responsible for providing security for all people entering the gun-free zone.

    • ” The NRA is experienced enough to realize that this is a slippery slope every bit as dangerous as the original “assault weapon ban”.”
      and yet, they try to use our rights as a bargaining chip knowing they will likely lose.

      • It’s only “bargained away” if it’s in the final conference report, passed by both houses and sign by Dearleader. Legislative maneuvering is a messy undertaking and the unreality of the process means that temporary BS happens. Its an ELECTION YEAR.

        • Finally someone who understands! Bless you, neiowa.

          Guys, “the republicans want to sell guns to terrorists” is not going to win any elections. The NRA’s play is: “we gave you a bill that would have prevented terrorists from buying guns, but the Democrats voted it down.” That sells much better in November.

        • But in the “long game” which everybody likes to talk about (I don’t belive that the long game is winnable for liberty), the NRA backing watchlists and gun free zones will be used over and over in the future. Rules for Radicals, the NRA and republicans handed tyrants a powerful weapon by caling for dangerous infringements. This is in line with the mantra of enforcing gun laws; infringement endorsed by the NRA.

          They have told us often enough with their words and deeds that I believe them… The NRA does not support the right to keep and bear arms. It supports a privilege under government control.

        • +1 @John

          They already have no leg to stand on when they claim to oppose Universal Background Checks, because they enthusiastically support SOME background checks (i.e., at an FFL) already.

        • Some say rape me a little while some say rape me alot. I say don’t rape me at all.

          Shall not be infringed, 2016!

    • Spot on, Garrison Hall. When anyone disarms another, they become responsible for the reasonable safety of that person. They assume a certain amount of guardianship. The same is true for government entities, prisons for example. Let the financial responsibility begin in earnest and we will see victim zones fade away.

      • Money does talk and if someone were to shoot me , if I was armed and was forced to disarm , then the disarmer would be liable for sure . This shouldn’t be debatable .

    • It’s still about 200% more due process than the statists will accept.

      They’ll make sure it fails, and we can point at them at being obstructionists for once.

      • “Play stupid political games, win stupid legislation”
        What if the Dems balk & decide to take what they can get? Now they’ll have secret lists & precedent for Hillary/etc to draw upon going forward. Still a win for them.

  6. We need to propose “no fly, no bene.” No food stamps to suspected terrorists. No Obama care for them, medacare, Medicaid, college scholarships, mortgage backing. We can’t be aiding and abetting these terrorists in our midsts! Notify the employers of these suspects, what if they worked security or at a school with children? Add to the predator lists automatically, can’t be 1000 feet from school, etc. It is common sense! I wonder who would still want to vote for a bill like that?

    • OMG I frickin’ LOVE this idea! THIS will play. THIS is a winning idea. Tweet this to the Trumphole immediately!

      The campaign line writes itself: “Hillary wants to give food stamps to TERRORISTS!” “Hillary wants to pay terrorists (welfare)!”

      Good lord this is a great idea. THIS is how you fight back, this is how you target the low-information voter. RF’s high-handed, intellectual approach (“well, if you know they’re terrorists, why not just arrest them?”) is fine for intellectual circles, but this election is about the Wal-Mart voter, and these kind of slogans will work. So yes, by all means, let’s have a “ban terrorist watch list members from food stamps” bill immediately!

      • If “if you know they’re terrorists, why not just arrest them?” is too intellectual and esoteric a concept for the average voter, then this country is already beyond saving.

    • The Left loves their unconditional, no-ID-required voting rights. How about “no fly, no vote” added to that list. You should lose ALL your rights. You’re on this list then you can’t go to a religious institution, you can’t assemble, your internet access is restricted, your phones are tapped, you’re under physical surveillance, you’re subject to random search and seizure, you can’t cross state lines, etc. If they’re willing to curtail 2nd Amendment rights based on this list, the rest of one’s rights may as well go with it.

      • Watch out boys , let’s not get comfortable with ‘ any list ‘, or I guarantee , you will find yourself on one . No matter what your political , religious leanings or ethnicity , there is a list with you as a headliner .
        NO LIST if it involves being deprived of any rights .

      • Not far enough!
        No fly no political job.
        If you are being investigated by the FBI, you should not be able to ever hold office of a political nature, or even be able to campaign for the job.
        John Lewis, the congressman who staged the sit in was actually on the no fly list, himself. If he can’t be trusted to fly on an airplane, no way should he be able to hold a job with any kind of political nature.

  7. How about – ANY citizen who can legal purchase a firearms in any state and who has moved Interstate at any time is exempt from any state or local restrictions on any firearm.

    The progtards LOVE Article I, Section 8, Clause 3 (Commerce Clause). Hangem with it.

  8. That isn’t NRA’s position on terror watch list at all. NRA has insisted on due process before any denial of a constitutional right. The Cornyn bill would require the Feds to go to a judge to deny a sale. You would have the opportunity to appear and challenge the FBIs evidence in court BEFORE they could deny a sale. That is due process.

    As for guns in establishments that serve alcohol, NRA has lobbied to allow permit holders to carry in establishments that serve alcohol all across the country. NRA’s position is that you shouldn’t be carrying a gun when consuming alcohol. I watched the interview with Cox on This Week and he never said they opposed carrying where alcohol is served. He said you shouldn’t be carrying and drinking. LaPierre issues a clarification on Twitter regarding his remarks. NRA has a long record of support for expanding the right to carry.

    • Sale is blocked immediately until you sucessfully make your case against a dossier of secret info you won’t have access to in three days. Rubber stamp court. Cornyn’s an asshole and trading our freedom to cover the failures of his precious security state.

      • That’s what I’ve been saying all along. I’ll bet the number of judges in this country who would stick their neck out and allow a sale to proceed is single digits. Not many judges are going to take the chance of being the guy who let a terrorist or madman buy the gun he used to shoot up a shopping mall or restaurant, so they’ll rubber-stamp those denials all day long, even if the evidence is clear that the person in question is no danger at all.

      • Spot on! The reality is you will not be able to see your “secret file” in open (or closed) court, as it will “compromise investigative techniques and National Security” theatre. So, if you’re really lucky, the judge will get to see it in chambers and then come back with a ruling. As was noted, what judge in their right mind is gonna stick their neck out and grant the plaintiffs wish to legally obtain a forearm.

        Ergo, all the folks who are screaming the nonsense that this is some kind of improvement and beneficial to us are either sadly mistaken, or deliberately ignorant of how our courts actually work.

  9. I saw a couple of the interviews and ‘news’ spots about this. The comment was do we want a bunch of drunk people with guns in bars (Anti-gun to a not present – Trump? NRA?). Then Trump / NRA backed down. Can these guys not have enough real time sense of comeback to simply say “when we carry we don’t drink.”

    • Careful, Steve. We’ve got morons – er, well, yeah, morons – on this board who will advocate that drinking and carrying is just fine, and after all, “you can’t tell me when I can and can’t bear arms, I’ll be the judge of when I’ve had too much to drink!”

      ‘Cause that worked out so well for drunk driving, dontchaknow.

      • Drinking while armed is fine. Many cops have done that in the past and continue to do so today. My friends and I do not disarm when we drink. I know many other people who do not disarm either. What’s not okay is doing something stupid or criminal with that firearm, drinking or not. As such it is not usually wise to be inebriated while armed. However, being inebriated doesn’t guarantee an incident. Lots of people park their cars, get inebriated, and do not drive that car.

        Punish them when an actual crime occurs and not for what MIGHT happen; if they USE that car or when they unjustifiably USE that firearm. It should never be for mere posession of a car or a firearm.

        • I would agree with you, up to the point about being a cop. Cops routinely get plastered and them drive – badging out of any potential stop. In any major metro that I know cops in, you have to hit something (with the take-home) or someone before you get in any trouble.

          That said, agreed, of course you should drink and carry. So, someone is supposed to disarm automatically when they are not 100% “sober”? How insane have we become? You have a few cocktails and suddenly you just might kill someone over the bar tab? Someone has knee surgery and should go unarmed because they’re on oxy for the pain? Someone has allergies and Sudafed makes them a bit drowsy?

          Where do these idiots stop? Gran Prix drivers in the 1930s used to be rather buzzed (ok, some went too far) during the race. 130MPH in open cars, with motorcycle tires and brakes, no belts, leather ‘helmets’. The dirty little secret about “driving while intoxicated” is that (on a race track anyway) it makes you better. You’re smoother, more focused, and crank out faster laps. Until you cross some line – which varies by person. I have no problem prosecuting the folks who have crossed that line – but it isn’t a defined number, and it certainly isn’t .008.

          (No, I have never gotten busted for DWI, I just know the science.)

  10. Gee, secret lists that the government can add any citizen to for any reason, or none at all. Some agencies will start having quotas for adding people to the list. Where ever will they will find ready made lists to use for that?

    The NRA needs to wake up! We can’t trust that the Supreme Court will rescue us from evil politicians.

  11. “return to supporting the 2nd Amendment, gun owners, and the right to self defense”
    “return to”

    When was the NRA ever supporters of this? They endorsed the NFA, the GCA, and WROTE the LEOPA.

    At best they’ve supported the manufacturers, not the consumer.

  12. Upon reading this post, I contacted NRA-ILA to either A) Clarify the accuracy of the info provided, or B) Offer a large and somewhat irate portion of my mind to a hapless ILA phone rep.
    The individual I reached was pleasant, concise and knowledgeable. He was insistent that NRA-ILA was not and would not support proposals without full due process protections (similar to the Coryn bill) and requested more details on where I had seen the information that had me concerned. I twice rephrased my questions to minimize the possibility I was being deflected by clever parsing of words. Either the phone rep was misled by his own superiors, or this article is overblown to the point of being misleading itself.

    • You were lied to; the Watch List is intrinsically incompatible with Due Process. It is literally “sentence now, trial later!”

  13. I wrote a very pointed email to the NRA-ILA immediately after I heard that saying I was very upset with their position. I realize political organizations need to compromise to get things done, but I think the NRA (of which I am a member and contributor) does more than compromise. They just “roll-over” I will continue to support them, as well as the SAF but I am disappointed in them. I think the Virginia Citizen’s Defense League (VCDL) is the greatest gun rights organization ever. I wish they could go national and every state had a chapter.

  14. Trump 2016, welcome to the America of secret lists. He was the first Republican to endorse this idea after San Bernadino, and as their nominee, the GOP is kinda forced to go along with him. The NRA was eager to go along with him (recall his meeting the NRA to discuss the policy).

    Enemies of freedom left, right, front, and back, it seems.

  15. >There is NO acceptable prohibition on owning or legally using any semiautomatic rifle.
    Should have reworded that to “no acceptable prohibition on owning or legally using any handgun, shotgun, or rifle, semiautomatic or otherwise, for sporting or defensive purposes.” All they have to do to skirt that is make hunting with a semi-automatic illegal or defending oneself with a lethal weapon illegal and suddenly they can lump on bans against MSRs and “salt waffles.”

  16. They forgot a few things in the list.

    There is NO acceptable permitting process required to carry a weapon concealed. To bear arms means to carry on your person, period.

    There is NO acceptable infringement upon the types of single man portable firearm a person can possess.

    There is NO acceptable taxing scheme depending on what type of weapon a citizen wishes to own that only exists to hinder said ownership.

    There is NO acceptable license requirement to purchase any firearm, ammunition, or ammunition components.

    That covers all the ones I can think of right now. I have always lived in relatively gun free states so those of you who live in communist democrat controlled states probably have a few to add.

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