DOJ Overrules FBI: “No Fly, No Buy” Won’t Harm Terrorist Investigations

(courtesy wikipedia.org)

“Attorney General Loretta Lynch overruled FBI Director James B. Comey on Thursday, saying the Obama administration does support denying firearms sales to those on terrorist watch lists and that it can be done without harming investigations,” washingtontimes.com reports. “Mr. Comey last year had told Congress that denying sales could “blow” his agents’ investigations into potential terrorists. But his superiors at the Justice Department issued a statement Thursday saying they want to see Congress approve the ‘no-fly, no-buy’ plan Democrats are pursuing.” Because guns!

“The amendment gives the Justice Department an important additional tool to prevent the sale of guns to suspected terrorists by licensed firearms dealers while ensuring protection of the department’s operational and investigative sensitivities,” department spokesman Dena Iverson said in a statement.

Odd (or not) that the DOJ has nothing to say about the fact that the “No Fly, No Buy” bill removes Americans’ Constitutional right to keep and bear arms without due process, according to the dictates of a secret, unaccountable government enemies list of potential enemies, with no publicly known protocol for getting on or getting off the list. And there I was thinking that DOJ stands for Department of Justice.

That said, I do understand why the DOJ poo-poos the FBI’s misgivings about tipping their hand to potential terrorists. Lest we forget, the Fibbies interviewed Orlando spree killer Omar Mateen twice before his heinous act. And claims that they put him on — and then took him off — the Terrorist Watch List. Not to mention that a Florida gun store where the jihadi attempted to buy body armor called the FBI to report suspicious, terrorist-like behavior.

Even so, what we have here is a clear case of the Obama administration’s pursuit of political point-making about to hamstring the FBI’s investigative process (i.e., checking-out potential and guys on the down-low). Surprising exactly no one.

More importantly: how many terrorists won’t go to a gun store to buy a firearm now? Will they be able to source a gun elsewhere? (Hint: yes.) How many terrorists who do go to a gun store and flunk the FBI’s NICS test will not seek a firearms elsewhere? And if they flunk NICS will that accelerate any plans they may have to commit an atrocity?

In short, what is the point of this “No Fly, No Buy” bill anyway?

comments

  1. avatar Chief Master says:

    Answer: Another step toward civilian disarmament.

    1. avatar Bob h says:

      Answer: the proposed bill gives the DOJ the power to deny gun sales to anyone they choose. That bill combined with a universal background check measure also being proposed (BY REPUBLICANS!!??) is de facto gun control hook line and sinker.

      1. avatar MeRp says:

        Not only that, but in places that already have universal background checks, this is a cheap way for terrorists/spies to keep tabs on their status re: the no fly list; simply periodically transfer a gun to another person “because they need it for self defense,” and back again later… an voila; if you pass you know you’re not on the list; if you fail, time to move up your plans or utilize your exit strategy.

        1. avatar Joe2 says:

          Could always do that by buying an inexpensive airline ticket and showing up.

    2. avatar Mike says:

      If it goes through, it will be the biggest step toward civilian disarmament that has ever been taken.

      1. avatar barnbwt says:

        Moves the game from a legislative/legal/democratic one, to a regulatory/arbitrary/unaccountable one, forever.

      2. avatar Publius says:

        Exactly. Since there’s no oversight of the secret lists and no way to be removed, all they have to do is scour social media sites / pro-gun sites and add everyone to the list until everyone is banned from owning guns on suspicion of “terrorism”.

        1. avatar HP says:

          It’s been a long time coming, and now we’re almost there. Facts and safety don’t matter, the endgame was always this, and it was going to go forward no matter what. Hold on, fellas.

  2. avatar Soccerchainsaw says:

    Because it’s more important to ‘look’ like you’re doing something than to actually be effective….

    “You rook mavelous, darling…”

  3. avatar SelousX says:

    The point of the bill is to turn up the heat in “boiling the frog” that is our right to keep and bear arms.

  4. avatar jwm says:

    Apparently I’m not on a no fly list. Since the list is top secret and obviously unconstitutional I had only 1 way to find out. I flew.

    As it’s been a couple of years since my last gun purchase there’s really only 1 way to find out if I;m on a no buy list……..

    1. avatar Sunshine_Shooter says:

      One needs to be constantly aware of their place in the world, so check often.

  5. avatar uncommon_sense says:

    “Attorney General Loretta Lynch overruled FBI Director James B. Comey on Thursday, saying … denying firearms sales to those on terrorist watch lists … can be done without harming investigations …” — Washington Post

    Based on what? What qualifications does Ms. Lynch have to claim the above?

    1. avatar Wiregrass says:

      Like her predecessor, she’s a good soldier for BHO.

    2. avatar Vv ind says:

      Shes turned it into the Department of jokes

      1. avatar Sunshine_Shooter says:

        Department of Just Us.

    3. avatar Dyspeptic Gunsmith says:

      Same qualifications as her boss: Affirmative action.

  6. avatar David B says:

    If applied to Muslims who aren’t US citizens, then I’m all for it. If applied to Muslims who are US citizens, then offer an appeals process.

    In Roman times, the citizens had rights. Those not citizens not so much. Citizenship has privileges. Countries have boundaries. Why is the Western world apologetic for being Western? Do Saudis apologize for being Muslim?

    1. avatar BDub says:

      An appeals process? Nope. If I’m getting added to a list that affects my civil rights, they are going to have to go through the same legal process for getting a warrant, arresting me and then having a trial. Then and only then, we can talk about an appeals process. I’m not having this secret-list bullshit, that I then have to make my case to get off of. I repeat…NOPE.

      1. avatar surlycmd says:

        Well said.

  7. avatar Bob says:

    Someone needs to string up the FBI for having two chances to ID this guy as a terrorist and put him a dark hole somewhere.

    The real purpose (aside from the hatred of firearms freedoms) of this banning the sale of firearms to people we suspect are terrorists is because the Fbi is clearly inept, so banning suspects picks up their slack.

    I guess there is a reason it’s called the “federal bureau of investigations” and not “federal bureau of investigations and accurate conclusions”.

    1. avatar David B says:

      The sheer number of Muslims that are radicalized or partly radicalized or espouse radical beliefs is overwhelming. It’s like whack-a-mole. Hard to keep track of all of them. This should scare you! And, Obama is letting more and more in. Carry everyday. Carry extra.

      1. avatar peirsonb says:

        The sheer number of Muslims that are radicalized or partly radicalized or espouse radical beliefs is overwhelming.

        Nearly two billion last I looked.

    2. avatar Cliff H says:

      Even if the FBI had managed to identify him as a potential terrorist due process requires that they could not put him in any sort of hole, dark or otherwise, until he was caught in the act of actually committing a crime.

      1. avatar JR_in_NC says:

        Which is precisely why all this security theater stuff is so dangerous.

        It ‘convinces’ the proles that .gov is doing something that will make ANY kind of difference while at the same time reducing our own ability to defend ourselves should we find ourselves at the site of an attack.

        It’s bass ackwards, which makes me think it is all by design.

    3. avatar surlycmd says:

      The real purpose is to set legal precedents that merely suspecting a Citizen of nefarious behavior is sufficient to remove their Civil Rights.

    4. avatar Dyspeptic Gunsmith says:

      This needs to be expanded upon – and made much more public. The FBI has shown themselves to be utterly incompetent on the subject of Islamic terrorists since the 1980’s. The FBI’s blind spot is large enough that you can park an aircraft carrier in it.

      After the fact, it invariably comes out that the FBI has had information on the perp for months to years – and yet they did nothing. It often comes out that they were given information on a gold platter by other parties – whether foreign intel or responsible parties reporting in to the FBI of suspicious events.

      The brutal truth is this: The FBI is utterly incompetent on the subject of Islamic terrorist groups. They can’t seem to find their buttocks with either hand, or even both hands at once.

  8. avatar Joe R. says:

    No authority, no regulation

    no Constitutional support, no citizenship

    no justice, no peace

  9. avatar notalima says:

    “Odd (or not) that the DOJ has nothing to say about the fact that the “No Fly, No Buy” bill removes Americans’ Constitutional right to keep and bear arms without due process…”

    What? The government that is supposed to be protecting and guaranteeing those rights actively looking to suppress them?

    pfffttt…nothing new here.

  10. avatar The Dotted Line says:

    Once we’ve accepted that unaccountable agencies can submit names to a secret list that blocks the exercise of natural rights without probable cause or due process, isn’t it reasonable to expect that they will then adjust the secret suspicion-based criteria and extend the deprivation of rights, for “public safety”?

    Isn’t this unjust enough on its face? Do we really want to find out what happens next?

    1. avatar surlycmd says:

      ^^^^THIS!!!^^^^

      You wrote it better than I did. Thanks.

    2. avatar Mr. 308 says:

      Yep. And what happens when after all this no fly no buy crap is fully implemented, and down the road another terrorist attack occurs where it becomes clear that this measure didn’t solve the problem, and the state comes up with ‘well obviously we didn’t have the tools necessary to do our job and we need to now …’.

      What are they going to come up with next?

      Rhetorical question of course.

  11. avatar Andrew Lias says:

    And this is the guy we expect to objectively investigate Hillary. Don’t kid yourself the scales have been rigged.

  12. avatar Nate in the land of townships says:

    This whole situation is so screwed up I don’t even know what to say. How did we end up here, with a country full of ignorant people who want to give away their rights to a government that is out of control and can’t be trusted? The people in this country who do not value on their rights are the real terrorists.

    1. avatar uncommon_sense says:

      “The people in this country who do not value on their rights are the real terrorists.”

      No. They are simply cheerleaders. The real terrorists are the villainous government agents who, at the behest of the ruling class, attack the good people of our nation. Oh, and since the ruling class is directing those villainous government agents to attack us, I suppose you could call them the real terrorists as well.

  13. avatar Danny Griffin says:

    Isn’t the FBI denying the gun store contacted them? Of course, I don’t trust the FBI. They lie, including perjury in federal courts.

  14. avatar JDS says:

    Yeah a no fly no buy list will work. Just like the no guns for anyone worked in France. The blame for Orlando lies at the feet of the bozo who occupies the white house when he’s not golfing. I’m positive the policies put in place by the adminstration and the terrorists he has placed in high government offices hindered any real investigation by the FBI. I also expect to see these types of attacks escalate while bozo is still in office.

  15. avatar Kyle says:

    Gun Buyer: “Hello, my name is Achmed and I wish to buy a North American Arms 22lr revolver” Insert Cheezy accent.
    Store owner: “Sorry sir, you’re declined…dont really know why”
    Gun Buyer; “Thank you” Goes outside, and burns his ID and goes dark cause He knows he’s on “the list”

    Kinda think this is a simple no-brainer of a way to find out if you’re being monitored.

    1. avatar Dyspeptic Gunsmith says:

      Of course it is. The DOJ is just following the orders of their political masters in issuing that appraisal of how it “won’t hinder terrorist investigations.”

      But there’s actually a grain of truth in their claim. It is brutally apparent now that they are not investigating terrorists at all – so if there is no investigation, there will be no compromise of a non-investigation by putting someone on the no-fly list.

  16. avatar anonymoose says:

    Will the cops show up if they can’t pass the NICS check? Probably not.

  17. avatar Shire-man says:

    Not that I’ve ever thought LEO’s or feds in particular were very bright but from a potential terrorist perspective all I see is win~win.

    Not on the list and get the gun? Win.
    Don’t get the gun? I must be on the list so the time to act is now. Win.

    From the .gov’s perspective it’s more like:
    Regular guy/guy gets denied a firearm? Win.
    Terrorist doesn’t get denied and goes on to commit a horrendous act? Win.

  18. avatar PeterK says:

    Don’t you know? No one opposes background checks. No one opposes common sense legislation to keep turrists from guns. Oh you like guns? Well you’re opinion doesn’t matter because you’re just a gun nut.

    Yes this is pretty much a conversation I have had. Lovely sentiment isn’t it?

    1. avatar Kapeltam says:

      No death threat? No comment about your genitals? No comment about hoping you stick the barrel in your mouth and pulling the trigger? That was a tame conversation then. (Sadly I wish were joking)

  19. avatar No Soup For You says:

    DANGER — Urgent Alert …… Commerce and Justice appropriations bills in US Senate contain Much more than 2 new laws against gun owners . Read and EXPOSE all the Gun Grab BS hidden within. Bill #’s — SA 4685 and HR 2578 … Amendments hidden around page 36-38 …ALERT OTHERS . CALL YOUR SENATORS —— NOW …. 202-225-3121.

    Call Chris Cox at the NRA as well or they will make BAD deals like always ( NOTE the NRA did not even KNOW the current bill numbers when I called ) — Make NRA STOP CAVING in while getting nothing in return.
    —- > They want more background checks ? ……. I want to buy a sound suppressor over the counter !! Why not ?
    I passed the checks right ? So how would that be a problem.
    Vote scheduled for Monday June 20 ….. will they wait , or sneak it through at midnight . Send out the RIDERS , Warn Everyone All you who read this !! — Do NOT Depend on the N.R.A. – Do it Yourself.

  20. avatar Ed Rogers says:

    The Second Amendment Foundation should file an injunction. This is a definite violation…

  21. avatar AHforPresident says:

    The part about all of this that concerns me is relates to the statement from the DOJ./FBI regarding veteran and militia groups being a threat to US Domestic Security. I can only wait with anticipation when these 2 groups are indiscriminately added to the TWL/NFL/Any-Other-List-You-Can-Imagine and this same justification is used to deny these individuals those other rights guaranteed by our founders.

    I abhor unnecessary violence, but i took an oath to take up arms against our nations enemies, both foreign and domestic. If this constitutional butchery continues i wonder how many will see these events and those instigating them as the slow march of a patient enemy?

    P.S. For the FBI agent reading this, i am in no way condoning or endorsing violent acts against anyone. This is just my biased perspective as an American who believes in personal responsibility, and individual liberty. I look forward to our upcoming conversations.

  22. avatar Sam I Am says:

    The big takeaway here is not that DOJ will do anything to disarm the public, we know/knew that already. This message from Lynch is directed squarely at FBI Directory Comey. It is a warning that any investigation DOJ (the pres, DNC, etc.) do not like will meet with dismissal. Specifically, Lynch is telling Comey, “Do as you please with the Clinton investigation; it will go no further than my office trash can. Make of it what you will.”

    Lynch is daring career, independent FBI investigators and staff to recommend criminal charges against Hillary. Clinton will be untouched. Now, we can move on to other circuses.

  23. avatar Friedrich says:

    If you all remember they were trying to pass the no fly no buy thing after the san bernardino shooting (though it wasnt named that at the time).

    I guess its just a feel good law since the orlando shooter wasnt on the list at the time he bought the sig.

    I really think the fbi should have done more. Flame me if you will.

    All its going to take is another dumbass who shoots up a bunch of people in a gun free zone…

    1. avatar Mr. 308 says:

      “I really think the fbi should have done more. Flame me if you will.”

      They should have done more, but not to include wiping out the inherent rights of the people laid out in the constitution. They should have amassed evidence and charged the man.

      That said, there is no telling how many of these people the FBI has been/is investigating and no doubt its a monumental task.

      But in the end, no matter how you look at it throwing away the constitution is the wrong answer.

  24. avatar TyrannyOfEvilMen says:

    This assertion is ridiculous on its face since there still needs to be due process for any of it to be constitutional.

    In any case, a dumb terrorist will find out he’s on the list, then use means to acquire a gun through a black market or from a friend, etc AFTER he finds out he is denied.

    The smart terrorist will just do this first, since by buying a gun from the Mexican mafia directly, he wouldn’t have to pay taxes or DROS fees or worry about pesky magazine limits or bullet buttons.

    So this (D)ipshi+ policy will endanger the public even more.

    Our government has become both evil and dumber than toast at the same time.

  25. avatar HP says:

    Ok, someone answer me this, because I think I’ve missed it. Was the Orlando terrorist actually on the “terrorist watchlist”? Or was he just a guy that at one point had been interviewed? The FBI presumably interviews lots and lots of people who aren’t placed on the official watchlist.

    1. avatar Mr. 308 says:

      No, he was investigated, put on then taken off some list or other. He had a CCW and some enhanced security identification for his job.

      He also made 1 trip to Afghanistan and two trips to the magic kingdom (SA), no doubt for training, prayer and assurance that his wife and family will be taken care of (educated guesses of course).

      This is all a smokescreen, it has next to nothing to do with preventing or stopping terrorist acts such as these.

    2. avatar Mr. 308 says:

      Actually, this post sheds a lot of light on how much information the FBI had about this guy prior to the attack.

      http://hotair.com/archives/2016/06/17/this-abc-news-report-flies-in-the-face-of-obamas-lone-wolf-theory-on-orlando-terrorist/

      “You heard right. When denied the purchase of body armor, “Lone Wolf” Omar Mateen got on the phone, had a conversation in a foreign language and then started asking about purchasing large quantities of ammunition. Abell then contacted the FBI, reported everything that had occurred in his store and that was the last thing he heard until Sunday morning when he saw Mateen’s face plastered across his television.

      “He slipped through the cracks,” Abell said.”

  26. avatar Pascal says:

    Not being able to buy a gun just means they will double down on bomb making.

    Running a truck or van into a nightclub and making it go boom will be the next thing they do.

    There are so many soft targets and so many ways to kill in mass that this bill is just election year propaganda.

    This just proves that Trump is not the only one who can manipulate that 24/7 news cycle.

  27. avatar Ing says:

    Hooray for secret enemy lists! It’s so nice to know how safe I’m going to be.

    1. avatar HP says:

      When mighty progressive despot Hillary takes the White House and uses drastically expanded executive powers to bend the country to her will, the first people on that list will likely be the rosters of groups like the NRA and GOA.

      Hope I’m wrong.

  28. avatar Bob321 says:

    The British had 7 lists during the Revolution. I wonder if the “no fly list” is the only list.

  29. avatar HuggyBear says:

    I’m a bit confused by the first paragraph. Isn’t the terrorist watch list a much larger list of essentialy anyone who has ever been considered suspicious where as the no fly list is much smaller and considered a higher priority?

  30. avatar glenux says:

    “Attorney General Loretta Lynch overruled FBI Director James B. Comey on Thursday, saying the Obama administration does support denying firearms sales to those on terrorist watch lists and that it can be done without harming investigations,”

    BUT that can’t be done without violating a prospective buyers DUE PROCESS.
    I mean, have these bastards ever heard of the thing called the US Constitution?
    They put their right hand on the Bible or in the air and swore do defend the Constitution.
    Their oath means nothing.
    Their word means nothing.

    1. avatar HP says:

      Oath? Those were words spoken and forgotten so those people could have their jobs.

  31. avatar Ralph says:

    Of course “no fly, no buy” won’t hurt terrorism investigations. It has nothing to do with terrorism, and everything to do with denying Constitutional rights to us.

  32. avatar Joe R. says:

    Somebody buzzard-necked the Bald Eagle on the DOJ Seal. Just sayin.

  33. avatar lionsfan54 says:

    All you Trump fans happy? He’s fully on board with this too.

  34. avatar New Chris says:

    Since we seem committed to throw due process in the toilet, let just go full fascist. No fly = deported to the country of your choice. Because clearly you may be possibly too dangerous to stay in the U.S.

  35. avatar LHW says:

    Obama’s sock puppets.

  36. avatar Will Drider says:

    If DOJ’s (obama’s) position over rules the FBI on this because it won’t screw up investigations: then there should be no reason not to notify those on the list or when someone is added. Further with the same reasoning, there should be full due process.

    Please note with all this crap there is no mention of firearms currently owned by people on the “List”. Does the Gov just want to further expand the categories of prohibited persons? There is only one type of restricted person and that’s a TOTAL restriction. Gov doesn’t tell you your on the list, they see your FB photo with a gun!
    Bingo, instant criminal.

    Per the FBI NET site on domestic terrorists, being anti-Regulation is one of about a 100 listed identifers! Maybe time to check your eligibility.

    There are a couple of bogus Net sites that claim to provide a source to check names on the No Fly List. No true Gov site exists for public use, Beware!!!

  37. Well shit, everyone who has posted here on TTAG all I have to say is “Welcome to the no fly list”, and if dems have their way, every American will be on it as well. “No fly 2” to come out before Obama leaves office. This one very secret, only the airlines or DHS officers at airports will have.

  38. avatar Jason says:

    A prohibited person trying to purchase a firearm through the standard NICS system background check is a FELONY! The government boasts how many people have been stopped by the NICS system, but only a handful are prosecuted for it.

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