Last week nydailynews.com reported Carhartt Jacket Stops NYPD Speer Gold Dot 9mm 124-Grain +P Hollow PointsIt was a major WTF story. So we commissioned our ammo tester ShootingTheBull410 to test it out. This is the not unexpected result.

 

97 Responses to TTAG Exclusive: ShootingTheBull410 Tests Carhartt Jacket with Gold Dot 124+P 9mm Ammo (re: NYPD Claim That It Stopped Bullets)

    • I know this is almost impossible to believe BUT maybe someone at the NYPD wasn’t telling it exactly like it is.

      • The NYPD did not tell the truth… in other news, water is still wet and the Pantsuited one is still ugly.

  1. Test is invalid, tester was not shooting at the same distance as the police, and should have used the same firearm, with the same barrel length. As the video shows, the tester was shooting at point blank range.
    The Carhartt never had a chance.

    • I haven’t heard, what was the actual distance? The rounds wouldn’t have lost much velocity at a “typical” shooting distance – were the police hundreds of yards away or something?

      • I suppose it all adds up, right?
        Gun to pavement. Pavement to lamp post. Lamp post to mailbox. Mailbox to innocent bystander’s kneecap. Kneecap to Carhartt. That’s the way it works in the movies.

        • Heh. Reminds me of the old “Nothing But Net” McDonalds commercials…

    • At 100 yards 124grn 9mm would still be moving about 950fps. To give some perspective, 230grn 45 acp is about 900fps at the muzzle. So still plenty of velocity to penetrate at any reasonable range.

    • “Test is invalid, tester was not shooting at the same distance as the police, and should have used the same firearm, with the same barrel length.

      Hey, lookie…another wannabe experimenter showing complete ignorance of ballistic science AND valid experimental design.

      What POSSIBLE reason could you have to assert that the firearm has to be the same and the barrel length should be as well?

      The ONLY thing that matters in a test like this is the bullet’s velocity at impact. What gun it’s fired from is completely irrelevant.

      But, the “same range” argument makes sense as it impacts velocity. Question is…how much. A couple of percent difference in velocity won’t make a difference, so unless the NYPD shooters were a LONG way away, your assertion won’t matter.

      • Here are a couple of reasons:

        I don’t know if the theory has ever been thoroughly tested, but many years ago there were seemingly solid claims that expanding pistol bullets fired from a barrel with conventional land-and-groove rifling were more likely to expand than bullets fired from polygonal-rifled barrels, due to the stress imposed on the bullet jacket material by the sharp edges of the land-and-groove rifling.

        Also, gun makers who use polygonal-rifled pistol barrels have touted their better gas seal and lower friction which increases velocity over conventionally-rifled barrels of the same length.

        I’d say that unless it is prevented by circumstances (such as the subject firearm being very old/rare), then “ballistic science AND valid experimental design” would both support using a test unit of the same type and model. It also can help prevent complaints of the sort seen above, especially if the results turn out to be wildly different than what was expected (admittedly not a factor here). With Glocks being as common as dirt, I think I can see/agree that using something else for the testing actually hurt the confidence of the results.

        • “I don’t know if the theory has ever been thoroughly tested, but many years ago there were seemingly solid claims”

          If it has not been tested, then it is not a “solid claim,” but rather would be “speculation.”

          I say the notion is pure horseshit, and I’ve DONE bullet design research. Prove me wrong with actual testing to my standards of statistical analysis and I’ll issue a mea culpa.

          Or, let me be just a touch more quantitative: If there is some measurable difference between expansion based on rifling design, it sure ain’t going to be a big enough difference to mean the difference between passing through a thick garment and not.

          Measurable differences can certainly be academic and not practical. This is the essence of the entire caliber wars and suchlike based on some ‘measurable’ difference in gel penetration testing. NONE of those academic differences mean a whole lot in the real world where OTHER variables far, far, far exceed them in terms of importance.

        • So, you attack the weakest link in my response, even though it was clearly labeled as such, and totally ignore the others, especially the last one that quoted your own words.

          In your second paragraph, you state the notion is “pure horseshit”, and in the very next paragraph do an about-face and try to make room to weasel out of the previous statement, in case it’s not as horseshit as you thought. Good to have all the bases covered, isn’t it?

          I suppose that tells us everything we need to know about the quality of your arguments, eh?

          In this particular case, if the “test” was to be considered anything other than a stunt, there was no reason (other than perhaps inconvenience/laziness) not to find and use a Glock of the same model in the testing.

      • I’m a mechanical engineer and it doesn’t have to be a prefect duplicate test to be generally relevant.
        It’s about the same.
        Calculations to a couple of decimals is OK… We don’t need 20 decimals.
        It was a valid test in my opinion, but even better people will not expect their redneck jackets to stop bullets.

        • This is the reason so many designs today suck. I’m an engineer and I say”meh close enough let’s go get tacos.” The only reason not to actually duplicate the circumstances is because the tester is lazy. How does using a different firearm HELP the experiment? It doesn’t.

    • I’ve got a better idea. The test is both valid and awesome. A Carhartt jacket just isn’t going to stop a 9mm, .380, or a .22 LR from a sub 2″ barrel. Want to wear something that will stop bullets? Go with Kevlar or AR500.

  2. Maybe the perp had access to some black market Scotch Guard. It’s good to SBT410 again.

    • For NYPD to claim 9 shots fired, 3 misses, 5 in the suspect and one in a bystander, that’s like winning the Powerball Lottery if it were true.

      • Maybe I’m splitting hairs, but they should probably count the one in the bystander as a miss. Just sayin’.

        • It’s not black-and-white, as a bullet can actually hit two or more targets in one ballistic flight. For instance, it could have passed-through the bystander’s wrist and then hit the suspect, or it could have passed-through the suspect’s body or jacket and then hit the bystander.

          But I “get”r your basic comment.

          Maybe the NYPD thinks the bystander had it comin’ for hanging out in the same neighborhood as the perp?…

  3. Most probably, the cops are lying. Personally, I would not trust a cop to tell me what color the sky is. They are pathological liars.

    • You think that the police shotgun him through the same hole 4 times is a more likely story then them missing three of those times?

      • The question is which direction was the bullet traveling? This test shows that the bullets became lodged in the exit side material as they ran out of energy. There is something very fishy going on here. If the bullets were lodged in the front it implies he was shot in the back.

  4. If only STB410 ran this test before I invested my life savings in Carhartt. Oh well…hopefully the Llama farm for fun and profit pans out.

    Great job as always STB410, thanks!

  5. First off The engagement distance was 25 yards or less. 2nd off This is not an unknown Problem with the 9 millimeter round. There was a shooting Years ago between A fish and game officer And two suspects that were poaching And shots were exchanged between the two Poachers And the game officer Using a 9 millimeter and the two poachers were returning fire with a 357 Magnum. The two poachers got away After being hit multiple times By the fish and game officer is 9 millimeter They killed the fish and game officer with a couple of shots Center Mass with a 357 Magnum. This shooting is what caused the FBI and multiple law enforcement agencies to go to the 40 caliber Smith & Wesson round vs the 9-millimeter Luger round. A lot of things can happen in Flight with a bullet And you’re hitting a moving Target Anomalies will occur.

    • To paraphrase Donald Trump: Let’s make sentences great again.

      I’m not sure if your post is meant to be funny. But anyway, it is. Yes, you want to carry a powerful round. But not penetrating a Carhardt jacket is NOT “A known problem with 9mm”. A lot of things can happen, yes, but one thing that cannot happen is for a 9mm slug at 1150 fps to turn into a little grain of sand and not be able to penetrate a jacket.

      As far as your example, the Fish and game officers missed center mass. The thugs with a .357 did not, or otherwise had better tactics. Hence the Fish and game officers died. Those officers could have had a .40, same result.

    • Weird, I always remember the Miami shootout where the FBI was outgunned by perps with carbines driving them to the 10mm and then switching to 40 for a more controllable round

      • That is what I heard as well. I believe that shoot out also resulted in the replacement of all revolvers with semi automatic pistols.

    • Ummm…… No.

      Missing with bigger ammo is still missing. The FBI wrongly concluded that the ammo was a problem with Miami shoot-out. They developed the 10mm in hopes of it being a super-death-ray-instant-man-stopper. What they found was that recoil was unmanageable and the charge was reduced. That gave birth to the .40.

      In hindsight, shot placement and follow-up shots are far more important than caliber. Bullet design is also important. I have sympathy for the Fish and Wildilfe officer. Sorry he lost his life. However, he missed. Missing with a .40 vs missing with a 9mm vs missing with a phaser…. still missing.

  6. I’ve carried Speer Gold Dot rounds on and off the job for many years and have never heard of anything remotely like this before. That said, I’m glad to see the results of both former and current testing so I don’t have to give my 9mm and .223 Gold Dot ammo the stink eye each time I pass by.

    “Lucy, you got some ‘splainin’ to do.”

  7. My guess as to what that happened Is possibly The ammunition that was loaded in the Glock 19 of the NYPD officer Could have been damp powder or oil Penetrating the casing of the bullet into the primer pocket or actually dampening the powder Causing the rounds not to reach full velocity. Will find out eventually but that’s my guess Most cops don’t clean their weapons very well I know this because I do Gunsmithing for our local PD And have seen some horrible handguns Dirtier than all get-out Bullets are caked with Oil And salt from our beach Area Very Salty air these guns are carried in not to mention body sweat That’s my personal guess we will find out eventually hopefully.

    • If it had enough velocity to cycle the gun it would have enough velocity to penetrate the jacket. The rounds they are trying to claim failed to penetrate the jacket were fired through hard cover, or were skipped off the ground or a wall before contacting the jacket.

  8. Well Done to STB410. I like his stuff.

    More fuel to to substantiate my BullShit Meter on the NYPD story. Either there is something they have not disclosed or they carried their ammo in a bucket of water before loading-up.

    • “STB 410 needs to auction of the jacket to support his endeavors.”

      Agreed. Call it the “Gang-Banger-Special Carhartt Jacket Auction”.

      Very glad to see STB410 up and about.

      I was half-kidding the other day when that story broke when I suggested STB410 do that test, but I’m glad he did!

  9. Everyone knows they missed. It’s comical for them to claim the Carhartt jacket stopped their shots. They missed – that simple.

    Or maybe they shot 9mm out of a 40S&W. I would expect that from the NYPD as well.

  10. Or maybe they had those rounds in their gun for years without shooting them and they were semi squib loads as a result of being carried in the rain, sitting in the hot sun, etc. probably a bunch of lint was fired out of the barrel as well.

    The simplest explanation (which is usually the correct one), is they simply missed.

    • You don’t like history much, do you?
      9mm Parabellum was developed in 1901 by Georg Luger for his pistol. Nazi party
      (Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei) was founded in 1920.

  11. Maybe they fired 9mm from a .40 ??
    That might explain the reduced velocity.
    Hey anything is possible

    • That might explain it, assuming you can get a “Glock 40” (Lee Paige reference) to cycle when you feed it 124gr +P.

  12. Many thanks to STB410, as always, for his calm, no-BS approach to terminal ballistic testing.

    I’m sure that the results come as no surprise to STB410 – or anyone else here. Why should the NYPD’s claims about anything related to guns be taken seriously by anyone? I mean, come on…

    A darn shame about the jacket tho. I have one just like it, and two other Carhartt coats besides. They’re darn good winter coats for much of the time here in Wyoming. During the wet&blustery weather times, tho, Filson gets the job done better here, with real wool liners and tin cloth shells.

  13. I can guarantee That the ammunition in the Glock 19 is carried by the NYPD was most definitely old ammunition that had been subjected to moisture And War Rain And I was older than dirt. This and a dirty firearm Could have resulted In what we saw happen. Most people are told to replace their self defense ammunition every 12 months To prevent Things like this from happening. I personally have seen ammunition carried in police pistols Never get changed out For years at a time This in itself can cause these problems and failures to penetrate. We should look to see how old the ammunition these officers were using In their pistols. You’d probably be surprised.

    • That is hilarious. It wouldn’t surprise me that that was the Excuse the NYPD uses why their bullets didn’t penetrate that jacket However the real reason is even worse. Cops in general Are not gun People There everyday Folk That get paid Far less than they should for the job that they do. As a gunsmith That is affiliated With a shop that caters especially to law enforcement officers I have seen the problems that probably caused this incident to occur many a times. The officers treat their firearms just like they treat their mates just like they treat their handcuffs just like they treat their flashlights They do not service them Until It Breaks. I’ve seen police officers Glock Here and here in Florida Filthy The last time they were serviced and cleaned and ammunition was changed Was at the range when they changed out there ammo To practice rounds to shoot. I bet you any amount of money That the problem was with the ammunition being old. You have to realize what this ammunition and what these guns go through on a day-to-day basis they are in and out of air-conditioned and heated Carz That Causes excessive condensation on the firearms and the ammunition they carry. This condensation causes attraction of all kinds of foreign material. Which wouldn’t be a problem if the guns were cleaned on a monthly basis And removed. But this does not happen. Cops leave their guns In the condition they are And never Change out their ammunition Where citizens that have concealed weapon permits Don’t expose their guns to the extreme impacts and climate changes that police officers do. They carry these guns in the rain they roll around in the dirt grass and on hard surfaces apprehending Suspects. They carry their guns Through the woods Through multiple Adverse climate changes And with this comes the ammo

  14. Thanks, STB410!

    What I find surprising is that anyone would need a field test to confirm that a made-in-Bangladesh, cotton and polyester jacket cannot deflect bullets.

  15. Another great video by STB410 to confirm what most of us expected.

    But where has STB410 gone? No videos uploaded to that youtube channel in about 9 months… Those are the most credible gel tests I have seen on youtube. I have been hoping to see a .38 ammo test series from him for over a year.

    • He did say he’d be away for a while for a medical issue(s). Looks like he may be back soon though.

  16. for just a second, the carnivore club ad before the video made me think patrick swayze had returned. disappointed.

  17. What about an angle close to the neck of the nose of the bullet at which the bullet struck jacket? So…..not straight on shots but a projection of the bullet say 30-50 degrees causing a crushing of the bullet jacket and deflection.

    Kind a like the old stories of 9mm bouncing/deflected off windshields.

    • Very interesting point Very well could have happened that way I would find it hard to believe that This perpetrator withstand tombstones straight up and down with the police as they shot him I would imagine he would be moving all about Trying to avoid being hit So your point is very valid.

      • That’s is where I was going, of course he is moving increasing the angles of projection at which the jackets of the bullets on a micro level are initially “touching” the jacket.

        An extreme case would be the video a few weeks back of the guy laying on the hood of his car shooting an AR. Not all of the bullets went into the hood. Some were deformed and deflected down range.

        • I’m not sure how much of a difference would it make. Carthart jackets are not made of steel or laminated glass.

  18. STB proved once and for all that .380 bullets from a pocket pistol are hopeless as a self-defense combination.

  19. Not surprised, but still only slightly disappointed. Years ago, when Carhardt made heavy canvas duck overalls, I bought a couple of pairs. Those overalls and my old army field jacket are all I need to hunt anytime of the year in Texas. After what I’ve seen them go through, I was willing to believe they might be bullet proof. Heck.

    • I wear the carhart pants to hunt in. I gave my carhart coat away years ago. It’s too damn heavy for anywhere in CA below the snowline.

  20. All i needed to see was the source! The paper was New York Daily News. To me it’s just another sign that NYDN doesn’t know jack sh** about guns.

    I can just about guarantee you that all 5 bullets penetrated the body, but four of them stopped on the far side of the jacket AFTER passing through the perp.

    In other words, the bullets met FBI protocol and expended all of their energy in the target. This tells us that Speer Gold Dot does exactly what it is designed to do: penetrate the target without posing a lethal threat to what is beyond it.

    • Browns5 rounds hit the target Out of the five only one penetrated into The body The other four were stopped By what appears to be a thick jacket. But we’re not considering the angles of the perpetrator To the muzzle of the Glock 19 so you don’t know if there was a deflected shot Not sure what happened there.

  21. Since he was mentally ill, is it possible that he had layers of paper and/or some sort of bag (with a lot of stuff in it) that helped stop the bullets before/after they passed through the jacket?

    • Wouldn’t be unusual if he had several thick layers of clothing on under the jacket. Still, I suspect my comment following the original story from TTAG may have some validity. I speculated that the NYPD actually missed with all their shots except one which killed the guy, and another that grazed a bystander.

      • It think they found four bullet fragments created by a shot that hit the concrete roadway/sidewalk before striking the crazy person.

  22. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i22-nMxnHrE

    Pretty simple but it gets the point across. In WWII the Germans set up vehicle convoy ambushes pretty frequently on the eastern front, and in urban fighting zones. They tore regular trucks and staff/troop transport vehicles to pieces using MP40s with 9mm hardball. Kalashnikov wrote about witnessing the aftermath of these attacks in his memoirs and recalled how terrifyingly devastating it was. He claimed it to be one of his major inspirations when designing his rifle. 9mm is an excellent and versatile cartridge. Loaded hot as intended (original German style 124gr at well over 1300fps) the round is easily the ballistic equivalent to .357 SIG.

  23. My carhart which was passed down to me in 1988 and is likely 40 years older before that does not look soft and supple like the example used. More like a stiff weave.

    • Right click in the video box, select “copy video url”, paste URL in a new browser window/tab. full30 is pretty clean, so far; average malware/anti-virus should do it.

  24. Does anyone know if the officer’s guns cycled succesfully? It is possible to imagine a scenario where a faulty round is shot at a very reduced velocity, but I cannot imagine that round actually being capable of cycling the slide.

    • Two officers fired 9 rounds. Mathematically, that means that the supposed “dud” rounds must have cycled the action. If there were only two dud rounds, you could say one came from each officer’s gun and could have been the last rounds they fired. But with three duds, that means two would have to come from one gun, meaning the action must have been cycled; with four duds, either two from each gun or three from one gun (or all four from one gun).

      The only other possible explanation is that the round failed to cycle the action and that the officer or officers successfully cleared the malfunction, got back on target, and fired again. Had that happened, you would expect that such a vital detail would have made the news report, right?

  25. The claim is total bu…. and is nothing more than propaganda for a currently unknown agenda

  26. Somebody said Dana White was working out a deal with the companies that makes the fighters trunks and Carhartt .
    May have an impact on the number of fight stoppages per round .

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