Sheepdg (courtesy akc.org)

TTAG Commentator Jerry Corliss writes:

I really hate the whole sheepdog analogy. The sheepdogs work for the shepherd, not for the sheep. They protect sheep for the benefit of the shepherd, not for the benefit of the sheep. They do so for a cut of the mutton. From the sheep’s point of view does it really matter if a “wolf” is chewing on your ass or the shepherd is?  If the criminals are the wolves, then the cops are the sheepdogs working for the shepherd government. Those of you who intend to defend liberty (I think you might be too late) should characterize yourselves as rams, defending the sheep for their benefit and yours. Not for the supposedly beneficent shepherd who is only there to shear them and enjoy a leg of lamb.

154 Responses to The “Sheepdog” Analogy (for Armed Americans) Sucks

    • This. It’s supposed to be a simplification for purposes of explanation. Don’t overcomplicate it.

    • You could also say the ram defends the rest of the sheep because they’re his harem, so that’s not a perfect analogy either. Flocks with benefits?

      • The analogy is that the government, like the shepherd, is out to flock you. Law enforcers (sheepdogs), on every level, are there to keep you in line and make the job easier. Scaring away wolves is only a side effect.

        • Comparing LEOs to sheepdogs is a pretty poor analogy as well considering their job is purely reactive (much like a sheepdog when it defends against a wolf) instead of proactive (keeping the sheep together). Cops don’t go around banging on everyone’s door to make sure they’re not committing a crime, they investigate after the crime’s been committed.

      • That’s the perfect analogy, actually. I carry to protect my mate and my progeny. That’s what rams do.

        • I also, from time to time, tend to butt heads with rival males. And by that I mean I headbutt people who I don’t like or look at my woman the wrong way.

    • This analogy doesn’t require taking it too far, or far at all. It requires merely considering what a sheepdog actually is.

      BTW, the sheepdog eats mutton, too.

      • Exactly. The sheepdog is merely a tool used by the shepherd, to protect what he ultimately will slaughter to his own ends, with the dog ultimately getting his cut.

        It’s a lousy analogy.

    • Agreed. The principle to distill is that of duty to protect. Sheepdogs do not enter into any explicit contract with owners of the flock. The sheepdog just knows this is his job as part of the community.

      Yes, the analogy has a flaw, but probably not worse than others and nit so much that it’s unuseful. It’s an interesting point to make, once, for newbies whi’ve never heard that angle before. It may also be a candidate for pet peeve; but certainly nothing deserving of hating it. Bigger fish to fry and all that.

    • You are mixing sheep metaphors.

      The parable of the Shepherd from the bible does not mention sheepdogs. The shepherd himself is the protector of the flock. The Shepherd is contrasted against thieves and robbers, and the hired man who will flee before protecting the sheep from a wolf. The Shepherd will die to protect the flock, while the hired man won’t. This parable likely warns against false prophets, who are represented by the thief, robber, and hired man.

      The Sheep/Sheepdog/Wolf idea comes from the books “On Killing” and “On Combat” by Ret. LTC Grossman. His writings are what are usually referenced when this idea is spoken of, but I doubt that many people that embrace the “sheepdog” moniker have actually read his work.

    • There are many Biblical passages that use the metaphor of a shepherd and his sheep to describe God’s love for us. Psalm 23 comes to mind. I’m not familiar with any mention of sheepdogs in the Bible.

      • The sheepdog metaphor can apply to anybody who makes it there personal responsiblility to be “their brother’s keeper”.

        It can be used to descibe cops or soldiers.

        It can be used to describe an over bearing government.

        It can be used to describe a man or woman who cares for their family.

        It can be used to explain why I like French toast on Sunday mornings……

        Thats kind of the whole point of a metaphor. Its meant to describe a philosophy. Not an absolute. You can take it however you want to. But, by telling it to others a certain way, you reveal more about your world view than you do about real world absolutes.

  1. I like the analogy of a porkupine. I just want to be left alone. Do harm to me and you’ll get a face full of regret until you stop.

      • Do you know the difference between a porcupine and a Porsche?

        On a porcupine the pricks are on the outside…

        {Rimshot}

        • Hey now, I own a few 🙂

          (Though there are those who would consider me a prick, so I guess I really shan’t argue the point…)

          And I’m fine with that. If I’m not pissing some people off, I’m really not doing anything meaningful.

    • I like the analogy of a badger far better than a porky.

      Porkys are have the brains of a rock. Badgers are industrious as the day is long, smart as hell and are just fine with you if you leave them alone.

      Mess with a badger and you find out that they’re 500lbs of mean stuffed into a 20lb package.

      No one I know who has ever messed with a badger once (usually out of stupidity) has ever done it again, ever.

  2. The real way the analogy does not work is that the wannabe sheepdogs are actually wolves working for politicians.

  3. I’m a sheepdog. Deal with it.

    A sheepdog’s instinct is to protect the sheep. This instinct may be the result of hundreds of generations of selective breeding by humans. So be it. He will do his job whether or not the shepherd is there.

    If the police want to think of themselves as sheepdogs, I’m fine with that, too. There just aren’t enough of them to be effective in that role.

    • Had a conversation with a friend about this today. I don’t carry to protect the public. If I do protect the public, it’s only incidental in getting myself and my family to safety.
      Does that make me a selfish giraffe? Maybe.

      • This times ten thousand. For the most part, we all have the right to kerp and bear arms. Mine is there to save my rump. If “you” choose to not carry (or even own) a firearm to protect yourself. Thats on you. If i hear shots ring out in a crowded mall and i and or my family is not in the immediate vicinity, then i am finding the fastest way out. I will not be moving to engage.

    • You’re not a sheepdog. You don’t have any “instincts to protect” outside of yourself and close kin.

    • As I alluded to above, the sheepdog’s PRIMARY instinct is to herd the sheep and keep them in a controllable bunch. Dealing with wolves on occasion is a secondary impulse and I doubt it has much to do with compassion for the sheep.

  4. Well since we’re playing “my favorite animal” I get to be a killer whale!!!!! Deal with it!!!!!

  5. I prefer the warner brothers sheepdog……punch a clock , say hello to the wolf….then it’s all business till it’s quitting time.
    I forget the names….sam? I think?
    Somebody out there knows

    • Yup. Sam Sheepdog and Ralph Wolf. They were roommates in one episode. Buddies before going to work, but mortal enemies at work. Those cartoons were part of my childhood.

  6. I think the analogy is be a sheep or be a sheep dog. (A follower or a protector)? Or a wolf? (One that prays on the sheep). If this is the case, as an armed citizen, I am proud to be a sheepdog.

  7. *I typed the following response on another blog and am copying it over seeing as I feel it is still applicable. References to past UOF cases should be viewed in that light. *

    I would argue that the problem with the analogy is that if you look at actual sheepdogs, that’s actually a lot of ground to cover. a great pyrenees, a border collie, and a Belgian Malinois are all classified as sheepdogs, they also all have different different approaches to how they protect their flock. A pyrenees will live among the sheep, a collie will guide them, and a malinois shreds anything it looks at.

    so does this make the analogy inapplicable? I would argue no as long as you understand a few points.
    1) know the size of your flock. A member of the armed forces takes on the responsibility over a nation’s worth of sheep. Your average ccw owner is responsible for the safety of his family. the issue becomes when one mixes up responsibility with the other. Know your lane of fire and stick to it.
    2) sheepdogs and wolfhounds are two separate breeds. To ward against evil and to actively seek it out are two different jobs. with many herding breeds, the most they ever do is bark loud, bark mean, and act as a deterrent. There’s no shame in that, but when the same dog goes into the woods, (as it could be argued Zimmerman did in the night in question, ) that’s where the issue arises.
    3) know who your shepherd is. If you’re going to take up responsibility for others, take up a moral code to go with it. I don’t care if it is legal, secular or religious, pick a set of guiding principles and stick with them.

    • A member of the armed forces is concerned with his squad buddies, nothing more. That’s the bond, that ‘s what they care about. The “mission” ‘protecting our freedom’? A big secondary to all that.

      If/when he/she is promoted, the LT cares about the platoon, the captain cares about his company, the LTC cares about his battalion, the full bird cares about his brigade, the major general cares about his division, the three-star starts thinking about all the staff and perqs a 4-star gets, and does what he has to, to get them.

      • No sir. The mission is more important than the lives of either me or my teammates. That’s why we are there.

        • jwt, Wasn’t trying to say otherwise, just that an overarching ‘big picture’ is unimportant, one fights for those right around you, not some amorphous “ideal” sold to you by a recruiter.

  8. making the “defense of others” argument, no matter how respectable, plays right into the antis stupid logic, because then they can make all their “But they don’t have training” or “they’ll just make a situation worse” arguments.

    Whenever an anti i know starts going on with that garbage, i always say carrying is about defense of self. Its not so i can run head long into danger like captain america, its so if some nutjob corners me i have an option other than ‘get executed'”

    that usually shuts them up

  9. The sheepdogs work for the shepherd, not for the sheep. They protect sheep for the benefit of the shepherd, not for the benefit of the sheep. They do so for a cut of the mutton.
    Fits military and police sheepdogs very well.
    Protect and serve who?

    • Well, if the sheep would quit voting for Hillarys and Trumps, then the sheepdog would be working for the sheep, like it’s supposed to be.

    • Dear God,

      You made us ugly, flightless, and apparently delicious. Did we do something to make you angry?

      Sincerely,

      The Turkeys

      • Wild turkeys can fly. But it’s funny as hell when they do. Since they’re bulletproof and concerned with their dignity they mostly walk.

      • That same description could be use for some humans.

        In one cannibalistic culture (cannot remember which) humans were referred to as “long pig”, due to looking and tasting like longer, leaner pig meat.

        Though, I’m not sure how comfortable I am with eating ugly people. In my mind, I assume pretty people will taste better – don’t ask me why.

  10. I’m not a sheepdog. I’m not a ram. I’m not a shepherd. I’m just a guy with a gun looking after my own safety and security because that’s my job. Not the government’s. Not some fleabag’s. Mine.

    • It appears you have escaped around the horns of that dilemma, and become a “porcupine”. Welcome aboard.

    • Hear hear.

      I hate the sheep dog analogy. It always sounds holier than thou. “Stay in your homes, peasants. I will save you.”

      I’m a man. I’m a free man. I owe nothing to anyone and I obey only my own conscience and the laws that are moral. I do not want a sheep dog telling me what to do or telling me how wonderful he is for protecting me.

  11. I responded to someone touting the sheepdog party line elsewhere online with a small essay, but here’s the bit that matters:
    From the earliest human myths and tales, we have the wolf as a folkloric figure. Many today judge it as an antagonistic figure, but by the laws of nature, is it so? Is it not the shepherd boy’s deception that creates a villain in the tale, not the wolves that slaughter the flock? Natural law is a bloody law, but can that be held against those born into it? The antagonistic force truly is the shepherd, creating artificial order, thus imbalancing the existing system and driving nature to chaos. And they think the wolves as evil, for the wolf rejects the order of the shepherd, not for the sake of malice, but for the sake of living freely.

    There is a growing culture today of those who call themselves sheepdogs. They are those who crave the power of natural law, yet sacrifice the freedom inherent in such a mindset for the security of the shepherd’s synthetic balance. A sheepdog is self-portrays as a hero; the opposite is true. For what is a sheepdog but a wolf that’s betrayed its kind?

    There will always be wolves in the world, and they are not evil for following their nature. There willl always be sheep in the world, and neither are they evil, for they too follow their nature. Not all men have the heart of a predator. The evil in this world is rather the shepherd and sheepdog. The usurper and the traitor.

    • How do you figure a wolf owes other wolves loyalty or anything else for that matter?

        • I don’t know too many human males who killed their father in order to be allowed to mate.
          Wolves aren’t loyal. They know that, on their own, they’ll die. They need the comfort and security of the pack, and they obey the Alpha out of fear of being killed or driven out. A new Alpha comes along, they don’t miss the old one.

          Sorry, guys, but it’s the same with your dog. You die suddenly, and there’s no food in the house? He’ll start with your eyeballs.

          The analogy breaks down because animals are not human. They are animals.

        • An accurate guess for sure, but I am fairly certain that a sheepdog is not wolf that is a traitor to other wolves. I am also aware that wolves do war with one another over resources quite naturally.

    • So, when you read a story like the recent DGU death of Trevon Johnson in Miami, do you take the view that he was just following his nature? Remember, the one whose cousin said “how he gonna get his money to have clothes to go to school? You have to look at it from his point-of-view.” I doubt you actually view it this way, but that’s one way to look at your words.

      As was said in other comments, this is an analogy. We use them as simplified examples to demonstrate a point, not as law, not as absolute fact. If you take the analogy too far, it breaks down. People are not actually sheep, but many act in vaguely similar ways in their refusal to take responsibility for their own lives and refusal to think for themselves. People are not actually wolves, but many act in vaguely similar ways in their refusal to follow common morality and refrain from stealing and robbing others for personal gain.

      The truth is that we are not like any other kind of animal. We are men, able to think for ourselves if we choose, able to control our actions if we care to act like men rather than beasts. If people can find inspiration in protecting others or even themselves from senseless destruction and pain in the analogy of the sheepdog, then this should be considered a good thing. Don’t take the analogy too far- if you work hard enough, you can make anything good sound evil, and anything evil sound good.

      • Maybe you should take thats as clue. If good an evil are so easily interchangeable maybe that means the definitions you are using are meaningless.

        • That’s one way to look at it, certainly. The other way to look at it is that you should stop at the simple explanation, and take the lesson for what it is, rather than twist it in ways it was never intended to mean.

          I take the lesson of the simple explanation, and the simple explanations of good and evil. They help me live my life in a way that is by no means perfect, but in a way that I understand better than without the the lesson. Nothing more than that.

  12. First this website is anti trump now it is anti civilian sheepdog sanalogy. You know that when people say civilian sheepdog they are not talking about for the government.

    • Both are stupid concepts if you actually bother to think about them. Sorry if that fills you with regret.

  13. If you want to see the government as the shepherd, that’s your thing. My reading of the Constitution doesn’t support that role for it…and if the police are the sheepdogs, it’s interesting that your shepherd (in the guise of the Supreme Court) has handed down decisions saying they’re not obligated to protect us.

    Some shepherd.

    • Not sure if you’re religious or not (I’m still not sure about it for myself, so don’t take that as an insult), but try to look at it in a different way for a minute. What if, instead of the government being the shepard, you look at the shepard as God? And what if, instead of the police and the military being the sheepdog, you look at the sheepdog as any man, woman, or child regardless of uniform, regardless of badge, who chooses to place themselves between harm and everything they hold dear?

      It’s an analogy, so you can stretch and mold it to mean whatever you want. I just like that version better- because I’ve met some people in this world who could fit that image of the sheepdog without ever putting a uniform on.

      • Psalm 23King James Version (KJV)

        23 The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want.

        2 He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.

        3 He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name’s sake.

        4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.

        5 Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.

        6 Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the Lord for ever.

        • 4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for I am adequately armed; my Ruger and extra mags they comfort me.

  14. Also wolves are awesome, beautiful animals, so I want to be one of those.

    Nothing against dogs, but you have to admit if you could have any kind of dog ever, you’d want a wolf.

  15. My parents have a small flock, like 4, that are basically the mobile lawn mowers. And 1 great pyr to watch them. The cut of mutton jibe is wayyyyy off base.

    I have watched this dog, how it behaves with the sheep, it is part of the flock. If they are nervous about something, she will move amongst them, rubbing against thier sides to calm them. When she was a puppy, the flock had some mis-givings about the new “sheep” and backed her down more than once. She would roll over and submit to them. This dog would starve before killing one of its own. And if you were in the fenced area, and she figured you for a threat, heaven help you.

    Anyone who thinks a sheep dog is just in it for a slice of the mutton is on the same level of knowledge as checking if a gun is unloaded by looking down the barrel and pulling the trigger. Its really hard to argue with someone that mis-informed, so I will just leave it at that.

    • When the self proclaimed sheep dogs working for the government start submitting and don’t want their cut of mutton, then I will hold them to be as honorable as an actual dog. Until then government employment means you are a rat, pure and simple.

  16. Wolf, Sheepdog, Sheep, Shepard and Porcupine. I used to see myself as a Sheepdog when I was younger and just out of the Marines. I worked Security in Bars and Nightclubs, fought with lots of drunks and sent a few to jail. But, as I got older…a little slower…a little wiser…I realized that coming home with busted up knuckles and a few black eyes was no longer much fun anymore. So then, I was still a sheepdog but I didn’t go looking for trouble. Then, I got married and had a kid and realized I now owe it to them to change and that’s when I became a porcupine. I look for exits everywhere I go, put myself between danger and my family, and the first step in every plan is to take my family away from the danger first. Sorry to everyone else in trouble, but this is the way it has to be.

  17. You’re taking it too literally. The analogy works if you keep things in context. There are are people that choose to be sheep. They don’t fight for survival. They rely on others. Could be the sheepdog. Could be the shepherd. It doesn’t matter. Point is, there are those citizens that hold the power of the vote that affect all of our way of life. NFA anyone? Then there are the wolves. Actual wolves are not evil. Get over that for the sake of the analogy. The wolves are those that prey on the sheep thereby causing the other sheep to want to pass more restrictive laws. AWB anyone?
    Then there are sheepdogs. They fight not just for there own freedom. They fight for all our freedom. Those in the military are lead by the shepherd. The rest of us have our own calling. I hate thugs. They can only operate freely when they face no resistance. I’ll do my part if the time comes. If I see a wolf beating the shit out of Ralph I’ll jump in and protect him. For glory? No. Because it is the best way I know how to end the free reign of terror these wolves among us have. Either that or just let the shepherds pass another useless law.

    • All analogies are suspect, but I have some sympathy for that viewpoint. Thanks for posting.

      Charlie

    • Yep., I would no more allow a predator to prey on a stranger on the street; than a member of my blood family; I see them all as family. We are all spiritual brothers and sisters.

      And yes, even the human predator is family, just a very lost one. So if I need to use lethal force to stop the predator, I will, but I don’t hate them for being lost.

    • Yes, analogies can be stretched too far and a lot of that has been done here. But at the simplest level the sheepdog analogy is about a certain type of people claiming to be better than others who are viewed with a level of contempt or pity.

      The truth is, most people have lives that are meaningful and important, with nuances that are unknown to passersby. Police are not heroic people as a class, though some are fine people. Many police are ruffians with badges. I’ve met many of these who confess they like to beat people up. These are the ones with pathetic lives that should be viewed with contempt.

      Leave me alone you self-important control freaks. And don’t pretend that I hold you in high esteem because you stop peaceable people for minor traffic infractions. Don’t pretend that I respect you for seizing property. Just go away. If an arrest needs to be made, you’re the flunky we’ve hired to do that job. Do it right and get paid. Do it wrong and you should go to jail.

  18. I think the title Wolf Eater is better, but that’s just me.

    Sounds cooler and has none of the other issues.

    If anyone asks what it represents in nature, well, it doesn’t.

        • I built dozens of houses. Do they call me “The house builder”?
          I dug several water wells. Do they call me “The well digger”?
          I cleared the roads into the village. Do they call me “The road maker”?
          But you screw ONE sheep…

        • Newish show: “Billions”

          “People remember allegations, not rebuttals. Someone says Charley fucked a goat, even if the goat denies it, he goes to the grave Charley the goatfucker.”

          Sorry.

  19. The depressing truth expressed by the whole sheepdog analogy thing is the sheep. Seriously, as a populace, we’ve turned into sheep–managed as a herd of consumers, to be fleeced by the shepherd (gov’t, academics, Bosses, the various elite), and often consumed by the shepherd. I don’t want my people to be flipping sheep! I want my people to be a pack of wolves. I want to protect a pack, not a flock. The sheepdog is stuck in the middle, wishes he was in a pack of wolves not milling around with a bunch of sheep, but can’t find anywhere else to feel like he’s in service, that he’s taking on the role of a protector. Guys in active military service–guess what, that doesn’t feel like a dog hanging out with a bunch of sheep. That feels like running with a pack. Why is it so hard to adjust back to civilian life? One reason might be that you miss your pack, now you’re stuck with this flock of goddamm sheep. Honestly, sheep!! WTF happened to us??
    People who are armed, who take (or are learning to take) responsibility for their own safety, and the safety of their family/community, are waking up from being sheep. No more G’dam sheep! If you can’t just jump right into a wolf pack, sheepdog is a great step up. But don’t we really crave a pack to run with?? Don’t we all want to live in Sparta or Athens or somewhere where all adult citizens take responsibility for their own lives, and the safety and security of the city??
    Ok, maybe not all of us want that. Maybe some here just want to do their thing, leave me alone. Given that the choice of being a protector now is really just a choice to be a sheepdog working for the Shepherd, who actually skims off all the real wealth and benefits from the flock, and throws you a bone and a pat of the head–I get it, screw it. But I bet if there was some pack to run with, a group you’d lay your life down for as a protector because they were worth protecting–I bet you’d feel differently. So find a pack. Find people who aren’t just sheep-bleeting-consumers-of-crap-fueling-the-engine-of-the-elites, who want to take responsibility for their own lives, livelihoods, safety, and satisfactions. Run with them. Go Wolves!!

    • Who cares about some butt fucjing sheep? Lets sheer them then use their wool as clothes.

  20. Yeah, well, you’re all stupid. Because your humans. Not some retarded animal. How about that? Hmm?

  21. I have watched sheepdogs herding sheep and believe me the sheep don’t like them at all. So I would say in that way the metaphor holds up. Don’t regard myself as a sheepdog, just a guy with a gun looking out for my family and myself, other folks are way down the list and only appear if I am d***ed sure they are in fact not part of the problem.

  22. There is one and only one way in which the sheepdog metaphor is actually appropriate for people who call themselves that.

    The sheep don’t ask for sheepdog to protect them. Neither did I ask you to protect me. You take care of yourself, and I’ll take care of myself, mkay?

    • No man is an island. Even SEALs work in teams because no matter how good you think you are sometimes it’s nice to have someone willing to cover your six.

      In the event I sincerely doubt you would admonish another armed citizen to stand down and let you handle it yourself.

      • Sure. The difference between SEALs and you is that SEALs are actually granted a mandate to protect, through the republican political system and rule of law.

  23. I don’t want to be a sheep, sheepdog or shepherd. And, I sure as sh*t don’t want to be a ram, either.

    You be whatever animal you want to be, I couldn’t care less. Just leave me out of it. If you want to be a horse, be a horse, if you want to be a goat, be a goat, if you want to be a sheepdog, then by God, be a sheepdog…

    But, if you sh*t in my yard or eat my bushes, so help me, I’m going to spray you with the hose.

  24. I gave up monikers and analogies long ago. “Sheepdogs” are just trying to defend how they have a drive to kill a bad guy.

    Personally? If I live a long full life and never deploy a weapon, I’ll be alright with that. I just carry mine because life offers no guarantees, and I shoot guns because it’s fun and my right to do so. If they only ever go bang in training or in just shooting at the range, so be it. If I have to shoot 100 people that are trying to kill me or mine, so be it.

    • “Sheepdogs” are just trying to defend how they have a drive to kill.”

      FIFY

      Looking at the state of the fools who call themselves “sheepdogs” today, they don’t care who or what they kill. They just want to kill.

  25. The better question is why do we even need a metaphor for something so simple, and obvious, as readying oneself for righteous of self and others? There’s no need for a metaphor, especially a badly flawed one. I think Grossman was just waxing poetic for no purpose.

  26. From “We Don’t Carry For You” —— Jeff Knox:

    **A popular essay from Lt. Col. Dave Grossman, divided humans into three categories: “Sheep,” “Wolves,” and “Sheepdogs.” I would suggest that Lt. Col. Grossman left out an important fourth category: “Porcupines.”
    . . .
    Our nation’s convoluted laws on self-defense and liability also force all but the most dedicated “sheepdogs” into the role of “porcupine” as well, making “porcupines” the most prevalent variety of armed citizen. We won’t passively stand by while the wolves have their way with us or our families, but neither can we take responsibility for protecting the “sheep” from the “wolves.” Certainly most people who carry would take action to help someone in need if there was an opportunity to do so, and there was no obvious alternative, and while many of us would probably prefer to characterize ourselves as “sheepdogs” rather than “porcupines,” the reality is that protecting you, your spouse, and your children is your responsibility, not ours. You should also be aware that protection of you and your family is not the responsibility of the police either. The courts have conclusively ruled that the police have a duty to protect only the public at large, not individuals.**

  27. You could say you are a donkey. Donkey’s protect the other herd animals cause they are quiet badasses (heh.) Course then you have that symbol already taken by the other party so it could lead to confusion.

  28. This one is much more appropriate:
    http://www.thedailysheeple.com/the-parable-of-the-sheep
    ” If we had such teeth, we could fight back, and stop this savagery.” That night, when the wolves came, the newly armed sheep sprang up with their weapons and struck at them and cried “Begone! We are not food!” and drove off the wolves, who were astonished.
    The next day, flush with victory and waving their weapons, they approached the flock to pronounce their discovery. But as they drew nigh, the flock huddled together and cried out “Baaaaaaaadddd! Baaaaaddd things! You have bad things! We are afraid! You are not sheep!”

    That is it almost exactly. To the typical anti, there is no difference between an armed citizen and a violent criminal. They are unable, or unwilling, to see the difference. And for as long as that cognitive dissonance exists, dialog with them will remain impossible, and all attempts to coexist and/or appease them are doomed to failure.
    However, I now see a great many waking up to the stupidity that this attitude represents.

  29. The question is whether you are willing to risk your personal safety and your future saving someone who is either too stupid or too lazy to protect himself and who may very well be ungrateful for your assistance. To quote my concealed carry instructor, “If I’m in a mall and I hear gunfire, unless I have to rescue my family, you will see how fast I can run in the other direction.”

    • I put it this way instead:
      “and you will see how fast I can back away. Never turn your back on the opponent, or otherwise take your eyes off of the threat.”
      And any random gunfire in a public place where you are is a potential threat, even if you cannot see exactly what is occuring at the moment.
      Why in the world would you turn and run? Prefer to be shot in the back instead of in the front?

  30. I’m not packing for you and yours. I’m packing for me and mine.

    Given the infestation of lawyers seeking a payday, I’m not sticking my snout into a situation where a) I’m not one of the main actors, b) where I have a chance to amble smartly off in the other direction, keeping me and mine with me, c) where I can avoid an interaction with the corruption and gross malfeasance that is American law enforcement today.

    I’ve already volunteered to piddle on fires and pick up after gross stupidity as a EMT in my community. I’m not volunteering to bring armed force to other people’s fights – because if I do, I’m not bringing a pistol, any more than I’m taking a piss-pump to a structure fire or a box of band-aids to a car wreck.

  31. Also, I’m pretty sure any type of sheep dog would get fucjin torn apart by a real wolf. And wolves hunt in packs. So, if you want to protect a flock of sheep you should enclose them in a pen, then around that pen, have another enclosed pen filled to the brim with a shit ton of pit bulls. I’d say at least 50. Ain’t no way in hell any pack of wolves, or any animal for that matter, is getting passed 50 pit bulls. Make sure they’re real pissed off like too.

    • You need to meet some real livestock guarding dogs, deployed in environments where there are wolves.

      The dogs are 120+ pounds, and they wear spiked collars that will prevent any wolf from getting near their throat. They have been bred for upwards of 1,000 years for their job, they know their job, and they’re good at it. They’re used in the Old World as well as the rural west.

      If you run into some big, white dogs wearing a spiked collar in Wyoming, you’d best give ’em a wide pass.

        • There’s about 40 breeds, and most every country from France to Russia, down to Turkey, has their own breed of livestock/flock guarding dog.

          Off the top of my head:
          France: Great Pyr
          Italy: Maremma
          Hungary: Kuvasz and Kommondor. The Nazis found these dogs so formidable, they killed almost all of them in WWII.
          Poland: Tatra
          Russia: Ovcharka. These dogs are monsters. They’ll take on bears. Get crosswise with one of these beasts, and you’re tomorrow’s dog crap, even if you’re shooting at it with a pistol.
          Spain: Estrella
          Slovenia: Cuvac
          Turkey: Akbash, Anatolian, Kangal. The latter two are larger than the Akbash. Lots of ranchers in the west cross the Pyr with the Akbash. In warmer climates, the Kangals are very formidable.

          There are more. Many of them are descendants of the Tibetan Mastiff, one of the last of the original ancient breeds left.

          As I’ve said here on TTAG about dogs and home security: Get a real dog. The above list is of real dogs. If you can lift your dog off the ground without having to worry about your back, you don’t have a real dog.

    • I’m an animal. I could get past 50 pit bulls. My bite comes in a variety of calibers.

      Not that I don’t get your point, I just wanted to be contrarian.

  32. That’s what is called taking an analogy too far, that’s where you have your problem. Even so, sheep dogs don’t really work for anyone, they guard sheep because that’s what they were made to do. The show Life After People looked into this a little, and, at least according to their experts they consulted, if the rapture happened and humans just went poof, it’s not unlikely that sheepdogs would carry on watching over their herd, probably for generations of sheepdogs.

    Of course once again, it’s taking the analogy too far. There aren’t just sheep, sheepdogs, oxford commas, and wolves out there, there are fleas, on the sheepdogs, and the sheep, and the wolves, and the shepherd too perhaps. There are also diseases, do we have to account for those in the analogy? What about gopher holes, in which sheep, sheepdogs, wolves, and shepherd alike might all turn ankles?

    Sigh, but I understand you are using the sheep, et al. analogy to make your own point about the nature of armed citizens, but I digress from my digression.

    Carry on, men.

    P.S. And actually, rams are there to F-ck sheep, as long as we are overthinking the analogy.

  33. Rob, you’re really thinking too hard about it. What’s your alternative if we’re not aiming to keep up civil governance? Disintegration into warlords and tribes? We’ll be Afghanistan then if we ever need to come to our own defense, then!

  34. See, now I’m thinking: maybe it means you’re the evil man. And I’m the righteous man. And Mr. 9mm here… he’s the shepherd protecting my righteous ass in the valley of darkness.

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