Oreo (courtesy chicagotribune.com)

Shooting a dog is a big deal, to be avoided if at all possible. But sometimes a man’s gotta do what a man’s gotta do. In this case, the man was a veteran living in Boulder Park, Illinois. The dog was named Oreo. Judging from this account at chicagotribune.com — unsympathetically (to the shooter) featuring the above image and erroneously titled Owner of dog shot dead in Boulder Hill park: ‘He loved everyone’ — the unnamed vet did the right thing. Here’s a reconfigured and excerpted version, leaving out the anti-gun animus laced throughout The Trib’s disjointed story . . .

Oreo, who was not with [his owner Jessica] Kies or on a leash during the confrontation in SuzanJohn Park, started acting aggressively toward the man walking the German shepherd named Bear [ED: not the shooter], according to Kendall County sheriff’s office reports . . .

When the man walked by with his German shepherd, Bear, on a leash, Oreo darted past Kies and over the fence, across the street to the park.

“I have a 12-year-old German shepherd, so he just thinks, ‘Oh, play toy,'” Kies said, explaining why Oreo would chase the other dog. “He was just running around them like he wanted to play.”

That’s not how Oreo’s advances came off to the man walking Bear, the other dog.

He called 911 . .

“I need someone here now,” the man yelled into the phone, according to a recording of the call. “I can’t talk. I’m trying to defend myself.”

When the operator asked if anyone was injured, he told her, “not yet.”

At this point, the good Samaritan military man entered the scene.

The neighbor who shot the dog told police in a recorded interview that he was grabbing a cigarette to go outside and smoke when he heard the other man yelling at Oreo, who had run loose.

The man has had a concealed carry permit since last June and always carries a Glock, even around the house, he told police. When he saw Oreo starting to charge at the man and Bear, it was in his back pocket.

“I’ve been here for 10 minutes fighting this dog off and the owner cannot control the dog,” the man said, in between swear words. “She’s sitting in her house doing nothing.” . . .

“I told my wife that I am going to try to go protect this man,” the neighbor told police. “That’s when I noticed that there was also three kids on the playground equipment.”

The neighbor stood between Oreo and the others, he told police.

“I told him just to keep back and away, get your dog outta here, if something’s gonna happen it’s gonna happen to me,” the man told police.

Oreo continued charging the three of them, bounding left and right and forward and backward, then stopped jumping and started lurching forward as if he was about to attack, the neighbor told police.

When Oreo got within three inches, the man drew his gun and loaded a round into the chamber, he said . . .

“(The other man) and his dog were behind me, the kids were safely up on top of the playground equipment when I did draw,” the man told police. “I know this dog’s past history… It attacked me before. I didn’t want to play games this time.”

And so he didn’t.

Note: investigators discovered that the shooter’s 3″ appraisal of his shooting distance was faulty. A deputy estimated that Oreo was actually some 10 to 12 feet away. An understandable mistake given the effects of adrenalin — and proof that you shouldn’t offer police any specific information on any shooting before speaking with a lawyer.

This was hardly Oreo’s owner’s first infraction, nor the shooter’s first encounter with the animal.

On March 8, someone called police after Oreo got loose and ran around the neighborhood, according to reports. At that time, the neighbor who later shot the dog told police that Oreo had jumped at him in his front yard and bit his left thigh. Police reports note a hole in the left leg of his pants, but no evidence the dog made contact with his skin. After that altercation, the neighbor pointed his handgun at Oreo, but did not shoot. Police cited Kies for dog running at large and no rabies inoculation tags.

On March 12, Oreo bit a home health aide at Kies’ house, according to reports. Kies told police then she thought Oreo was still upset about having a gun pulled on him earlier that week. She was once again cited for no rabies inoculation tags . . .

Kendall County Sheriff’s deputies initially received a report for a dog bite April 9. They arrived at the park to find two dogs fighting.

Sad but, in a way, inevitable. And not at all lamentable, from a self-defense perspective. No charges filed. [h/t TP]

126 Responses to GLOCK-Armed Vet Shoots Pitbull Mix: Defensive Gun Use of the Day

  1. After reading this I would have loved to see some charges brought up against the owner of the shot dog. Sounds like an awful lot of negligence on her part.

    • This exactly, I worry sometimes that if my German Shepherd got loose she might be deemed aggressive (she’s pretty goofy but has a mean bark). So I always make a conscience effort to check the gates and doors. If the dog is as aggressive as it seemed, the owner should have been more responsible. Can’t blame a guy for defending himself. It’s the owners fault.

      • I have the same concern about my 6 year old great dane. EXTREMELY dog and people friendly with the dopiest “everybody is my new friend” attitude of any dog I’ve had. But her hello/play/yippee voice is a very deep, guttural sound. Almost more of a roar than a bark. Hearing that as 120+ pounds of it is enthusiastically approaching I would not be able to blame someone for not noticing the frantically wagging tail or the retarded pony prance she has when she’s excited. We did a bang up job of socializing her but it is still our job to realize that her simple “hello” will not be understood by most people.

        • No one wants to see loss of life, but I have to imagine from the information provided here that it was more than just an overly playful dog. As the article states, it was not this dogs first infraction and there is clearly a history of biting people. If you have a dog that has a long history of multiple bites on people there is no excuse for allowing it to get out and around other people, their dogs, or their children. I love dogs, I hate to see them get hurt, but I have to call a spade a spade and conflating this incident with one where a dog is just having a good time seems like a bit of a stretch. Sort of on the same level as trying to prove that some kid was a “good boy” while his criminal history paints a different story. This dog had a history of violence and in many localities it would have been in a pound or put down for such acts.

  2. OFF-TOPIC FLAME DELETED

    [ED: please address all comments about TTAG’s editorial stance or style to thetruthaboutguns@gmail.com.]

    yes i do think the Veteran did the right thing and the owner should face reckless endangerment charges.

  3. aaaand thats why I leave my dog on a leash. She’s a Corgi, so it’s not like shes the most hostile of breeds, but I don’t want her running off, getting hit by a car, mauled by another dog, etc.

    • How can anyone look at a Corgi and not smile? Every time I’ve seen one I think “I am happy and I love you.” And I swear they all say “I know, right?”

      • I wish I could find a use for corgis aside from being the sweetest, most adorable dogs ever.

        My wife wants one so badly but if I have to justify new gun purchases for me I have to justify puppy purchases for her…

        • Corgis are a working breed. If you look at their teeth, it’s like looking at a German Shepard’s. They are highly protective and love, ok must, have a job. I know one corgi that’s up to a burglar and a half. He took the first one off a fence then ripped the second’s pants. Then he brought the guy’s wallet over.
          At the same time he’s kid proof. He thinks kids are the best things ever.

  4. Lots of folks use large aggressive dogs as improvised weapons. A pitbull can easily kill a small child, average woman or in a group a large man. To allow First Bite is to risk death. So I have no problem with a proactive approach. A dog off leash that runs towards me is making its last journey.

    • You do know how to tell the difference between an aggressive dog and a friendly dog based on body language, right?

      Or are you just going to shoot blindly at any dog that comes running toward you?

      If so, I’m sure that will make you the most popular person in the neighborhood.

      • An off leash dog could justifiably be treated like any other wild animal. Bear, wolf, whatnot if the dog is big enough to do damage. Fox if the dog is small.

        Cops aren’t doing diddly squat about people handling those particular “deadly weapons” irresponsibly. Because stupid progressives think they look cute and things….

        While, in reality, a large dog neither on leash or at heel, is no less irresponsible on the part of the owner, than a gun owner just wildly waving his loaded AK around a playground, “play-aiming” at kids as part of some macabre Cowboys and Indians game. Most likely, the AK won’t go off, and the dog won’t bite, but in either case, there is nothing unjustified in treating it as a potentially deadly threat.

      • Family has owned plenty of dogs over the decades, most are really good, some are excellent, a few are beyond help and are bad dogs. Tired of hearing that BS myth that there are no bad dogs.

        • Like people, there ARE bad dogs. Like people, they are also the exception.

      • There are no bad people, only bad governments.

        See how ridiculous that sounds? Dogs are sentient beings like humans are. Neither are fully subject to control of an authority figure.

        • Dogs may be sentient but there are light years of difference between humans and a dog. When was the last time dogs invented the light bulb or for that matter understood what 2+2 was? Those who equate dogs with humanity have way more issues than any instinct driven pit bull.

        • “invented the light bulb or for that matter understood what 2+2 was? ”

          Dude. Seriously!

          I think I understand what you’re trying to say, but, really, when was the last time anyone was in government, who even had the sentience to change a light bulb. Much less invent one. And, honestly, ditto for 2+2.

    • You’ve clearly never been around a properly raised and socialized pit bull.

      I’ve been around many and never owned one. They’ve been amongst the best behaved and loving dogs I’ve ever had the pleasure of coming in contact with. Pit bulls are (like many breeds) capable of causing very serious damage, but in my experience are some of the most loving and conscientious dogs around.

      I really can’t wrap my head around POTG blaming dogs for being dogs in one breathe and excusing a firearm because it’s a firearm in the next. Why is it okay for someone to just be the IGOTD but a dog owner is subhuman because their choice of caliber (breed) is different than yours? Ultimately, it’s the training and behavior of the handler/operator that dictates the actions of the pet or firearm.

      Or have we been wrong all this time and actually do need to get those evil assault weapons off the streets because they are unfit for a civilized society?

      • The point about guns is that guns don’t kill people because they’re literally not sentient. They can’t make their own decisions.

        Dogs can. You’re trying to compare the animate and inanimate. Yes, some dogs do “snap” years after you think you have them trained, because they are sentient, living creatures. Comparing any animal to an inanimate object doesn’t make much sense.

    • Nothing wrong with pitbulls. It’s the owners. Any strong/heavy breed of dog can cause major damage if untrained and improperly socialized.

    • No educated man judges a man’s integrity by the pet he keeps. My pit Is the smartest, most loving and loyal dog I have ever had. You sir, are and ignorant fool and I hope you have not and never do breed.

  5. I dislike aggressive dogs and their owners- often neither can be reasoned with. An unleashed pitbull bit our mixed poodle while my daughter was walking him. This was the second offense for that dog. Had I been there, I may have done the same as our veteran, above. Hurting our pet is bad, but putting my daughter in harm’s way is worse.

    The owner in our case at least paid the $700 vet bill, and the dog is no longer at their house. He’s someone else’s problem now (fortunately/unfortunately).

    • Aggressive dogs are made, not bred.

      My brother in law has owned pits for years. Kindest dogs I’ve ever seen. They may beat you to death with their tails, but that’s about it.

      I’ve been a lab guy my whole life. Every single lab I’ve ever had has become ornery as all get out when they get old (much like Ralph).

      • I’m sorry, but every pitbull owner says this. Every. Last. One. They are always the “sweetest dogs ever,” up until they bite a little kid in the face. And then its the kid’s fault, donchaknow, for startling the dog, or some other nonsense. There was a three day old infant killed by a pitbull not long ago. It attacked after the owner sneezed- supposedly scared the dog.

        So why is it that pitbulls have this reputation? Maybe, if you’re right, its because 99% of their owners are dirtbags. My dog has been bitten three times, always when he was leashed, always by an unleashed pitbull. Dog, owner, whatever. The veteran in this case did the neighborhood a service, and someone ought to buy him a new bullet.

        • I’ve never owned a pit. I’ve also never met one that worried me any more than other breed.

          Generally, the rhetoric surrounding pit bulls sounds an awful lot like “I’m scared off guns, they should be banned.”

        • In my old neighborhood there were quite a few pits – the owners broke down into two groups:

          1) Cholo gangster types who kept them to protect their yards (and presumably drug stash). Not the most salubrious of neighbors, but they were pretty careful not to let their dogs run free, so overall no immediate problem.

          2) Douchebag millennial hipsters who had adopted pits from shelters. OMG were these idiots dangerous. They had no control over the dogs, but kept insisting on how sweet but misunderstood they were (at least the cholos were honest about their vicious beasts). They had no clue about the dogs’ history, no command voice and didn’t try to train properly, but of course they brought their beasts to the community off-leash dogrun.

          So, I don’t hate all pits, but I do see them as the Dodge Hellcat of dogs – fine as long as owned responsibly by someone who is up to the challenge. Would you give a Dodge Hellcat or a C7 Vette to a 16 year old with a brand new license? Would you give a .500 S&W to a brand new shooter?

        • I’ve met a lot of pits in my life but never owned one. More of Plott person myself.

          My experience with at least two dozen pits is as follows:

          When owned by responsible people who understand how to train and discipline a dog they are the friendliest animals ever as long as you don’t threaten their people. When around one you might want to consider carrying a change of clothes unless you like smelling like dog drool.

          When owned by someone got it for the “badass” factor (gangsters, drug dealers etc) they can be extremely dangerous, especially when these morons train them specifically to be aggressive to guard a house/stash but never teach them to break off an attack. Unfortunately the Pit’s reputation makes it exactly the kind of dogs these idiots want. The same is true of someone who doesn’t know anything about dogs and gets a Pit as their first dog. This isn’t a beginner’s dog, you either know what you’re doing or you pay for classes and you read the books on how to deal with this animal or you don’t get one. Honestly though, the same is true of any big, powerful dog breed.

          Ultimately, IMHO, the breed doesn’t matter that much. Pincher, Plott, GSD, Pit, Chow, Akita, mutt… doesn’t matter. If you train the dog to attack people you’re asking for serious trouble, especially when you don’t do the work to teach the dog to end the attack on command. If you fail to set boundaries for the dog and enforce them, you’re again asking for a lot of trouble.

          Are there dogs that are just wired wrong? Yup. It happens the same way it does with people. Sometimes that bad wiring can’t be overcome and the dog has to be destroyed but usually, in the hands of a competent and respsonsible owner, they’ll do fine.

        • I don’t own a pitbull. I’ve been attacked and bit by more Chihuahuas and “family labs” than pitbulls. Take your ignorance elsewhere.

        • “Pit bull” isn’t even really a breed. It is like the dog version of “assault weapon.” It is an arbitrary term based off of cosmetic appearance of the dog that has nothing to do with behaviors. Multiple dog breeds can be classed as a “pit bull.”

      • Dogs can most certainly be bred to be aggressive. Boston Terriers for example used to be bred as a fighting dogs until the aggressiveness was bred out of them.

        • Along with a dozen other breeds. Physical traits can be bred. Emotional not so much. 300 years ago they may have thought so.

        • “Emotional traits” can easily be bred. Even in horses.

          In dogs, “gameness”, which is really just a snobbish way of saying dog-on-dog aggressiveness, were very successfully bred for by dog fighters. Still is, I’m sure, although the sport is illegal here now.

          Most current pet breeders try to breed aggressiveness out of traditionally aggressive breeds like Pit Bulls and Dobermans.

      • Can you train your labs well enough that they will never retrieve? Of course not. They were bred to retrieve. It’s in their DNA.
        Can you train a pit well enough that it will NEVER fight? Well?

        Keep them leashed.

  6. Sound like a good shoot, but I have to put the blame for the shoot squarely on the dog’s owner. We had several rescue pits and pit mixes when I was growing up. For some of them, the only danger was their tail breaking your shins when they were happy, some others had to be isolated from everyone but the most immediate family.

  7. “When Oreo got within three inches, the man drew his gun and loaded a round into the chamber, he said . . .”

    . . .

    • If a dog ‘charged’ the shooter ‘within 3 inches’ and backed off, he was either threatening/posturing or he was playing. If ‘Oreo’ was attacking, the shooter would have given his statement to police at the hospital.

    • So if it approaches, wagging it’s tail furiously, wiggling all over with happiness, delighted to see you, you’re going to plug it?

      Threat assessment takes many forms. I don’t shoot every person who approaches me. Some of them might just want directions to the nearest Walmart.

    • You might want to rethink that plan of action. IF by any type of accident my dog (yes a pit) got loose (and this has NEVER happened in the five years I’ve had him) and you were the closest person to him (i.e. a store parking lot) he would want to run to you and PLAY. His first reaction would be that you must be there to see him, because everyone who comes by naturally greets him first as he usually makes it to the door before me. If you even started to draw your weapon I would shoot you before you cleared leather, and when the cops showed up I would say I thought you were drawing on me and know as long as my story was the only one told I’d be home for dinner…fact. Most RESPONSIBLE dog owners look at their pet as more of a child/family member than a pet, being made to feel nervous is no reason to skin your weapon…being under a IMMEDIATE THREAT is. Not every dog over 20 lbs. is an automatic threat. What if you were to draw every time a person walked to fast towards you or everytime you were made nervous/uncomfortable in public? Get a spine, or a badge if you wanna keep pulling every time you see a pug and it farts.

  8. The only situation I’ve seen where a dog should be shot is a rabies case. I’ve never come across a dog who’s ass I couldn’t beat into submission. I guess I’m to far pro animal.

    • A 120 pound GSD like mine is not something you can easily beat into submission, and you can be certain that in the process he would get enough bites in to do serious damage.

      Certain breeds however ARE prone to certain forms of behavior, in some cases it’s how the breed comes into existence. For example, I don’t let my GSD go far from eye sight when around strangers. As much of a friendly/happy dog as he is, and even though he’s been trained since 12 weeks, I know it’s my responsibility to make sure he knows his role and boundaries, as I know the nature of the breed.

      • Why not just spell out German Shepherd instead of using arcane acronyms? It makes you seem snobby.

        • Because the acronym is so widely used it isn’t necessary. You knew what he was saying.

          Maybe you shoud stop being snobby about his chosen vernacular.

        • If you think that’s bad, when my wife was pregnant she hung out in mommy forums. IEC specs make more sense.

      • GSD’s are such a great example of a breed that needs proper care and maintenance. One of the best family dogs you can find, but potentially lethal if cared for improperly.

        Wonderful, thoughtful, caring, and protective (sometimes to a fault) dogs. But their focus tends to be single-minded which requires a similarly minded keeper that the dog never questions as an alpha.

        • keeper that the dog never questions as an alpha.

          True of ALL breeds. Dogs are not people, trouble happens when their keepers forget that.

        • NO. Some breeds (like every terrier) were bred by humans for centuries to duke it out with wild animals where no quarter was given. Pit-Bulls were made to fight with animals, other dogs, and basically anything that humans sicced them on. Their ability to absorb damage and keep coming reflects their nature. Why are they so strong in a fight? People seem to want to ignore the facts about pit bulls. If you want a nice dog get a golden retriever. If you want a dog that is made to fight (and die fighting for the cause) get a pitbull or pit mix.

        • Tell that to the golden we had to shoot after it tore the throat out of the black lab it had lived with for 7 years.

        • What is your point? Our golden retrievers as tough as pit bulls or are you using one subjective experience to make an objective argument?

    • Aside from the fact that I’ve never been faced with a rabies case, my experience has been the same. That said; not everyone understands the psychology of dogs well enough to force submission without violence. Even fewer have the constitution for it.

      A large, nervous dog is frightening and unpredictable no matter how well you can handle them. I am averse but not opposed to putting a dog down in defense of myself or my own idiot dog (boxer) who sees all other dogs and people as things who love her and need copious amounts of love in return. Thankfully, I have only ever felt the need to draw on a dog once and it submitted after applying the appropriate level of “Fuck you I’m in charge” behavior.

    • I agree fully that pretty much any dog can be beat into submission, it’s just that most people will not man up (so to speak) and take care of the situation. People who say stupid things about certain breeds most often are regurgitating main stream media garbage about killer dogs being outlawed and other idiocy. The truth is for many decades bully breed dogs were used literally as babysitters in the early west, as everyone was needed to tend to certain things. They would literally leave children and even infant(s) in the care of the dog, knowing that A. The dog will protect the children it knows as family to its death and B. That if there was any other type of problem there would be an alert of some kind (i.e. barking ect.) My dog alerted me to a fire in an old apartment a neighbor started when I first got him and he was amazing. I would defend my dog just like he was any other member of my family…no matter what the circumstance, as long as he hasn’t gone full retard and started eating the neighborhood children, and that’s about as likely to happen as North Korea applying for statehood.

  9. “even around the house”

    I can’t believe RF did not use this as an opportunity to plug home carry 🙂

    On another note. The difference between 3 inches and 10 feet is huge adrenaline or no. I still think the shooter was justified if the facts line up with what he said. Is it possibly he meant/said 3′ and not 3″?

      • While not a fan of Condition 3 carry, I admit you make the bigger point.

        First rule and all that…

  10. “Kies told police then she thought Oreo was still upset about having a gun pulled on him earlier that week.”
    Holy crap… please don’t ever have children. What a master of rationalization.

    • Again. It’s her fault. She should have had that poor dog in counseling and on sedatives…

        • Precisely. In my home state of Idaho, a judge determined that as long as a dog was confined in an enclosure, it’s level of aggression was irrelevant, and the dog could not be put down just for growling at people. In the words of the judge, the dog deserved to “live out his days in the sun”.

  11. No mention of Oreo growling or barking? Dogs have distinctive barks that differentiates aggression or warning. The actions described sound exactly like playfulness.
    RF, why not mention the woman saying the shot tore her pants leg?
    Lots of bullshit in this story. Still, dog needs training and a taller fence.

  12. Why this lady still even had this dog after the prior incidents is beyond me. If I were the home health aide that had been bitten, I believe I would have sued.

    The guy was lucky he had time to chamber a round, in any case.

  13. A friend of mine had a young, hyper GSD bitch who loved to go to the park and run and chase the other dogs. A lot of owners thought she was attacking their pets. After a few complaints, he quit going to the dog park.

    This dog park incident sounds like ‘Oreo’ is just playing and humans overreacted, especially if nobody got bit in ten minutes of ‘altercation’. OTOH, if I were the shooter, and the dog had already come over to my house and ripped a hole in my pants, I might be a lot less willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

  14. A serious case of bad owner. Next thing you know they’ll be saying the dog was “trying to turn its life around” or something. It just graduated from obedience school.

    Give me a break, she should get some fines and/or sit down time for not controlling what was a known aggressive animal. I would lose a dog that bit or tried to bite someone in aggression like a bad habit.

    • The appropriate way for the law to treat a dog owner, is just like a gun owner. If her dog bites someone, it is no different than her gun shooting someone. In both cases, it is reckless endangering of an innocent human being, due to incompetent handling of a tool. it is no more justifiable to have a deadly dog and not follow proper safety rules, than it is to have a deadly gun and not do so.

  15. Kies told police then she thought Oreo was still upset about having a gun pulled on him earlier that week.

    It’s official. This lady is a facking moron. She might as well have shot that dog herself.

  16. This is exactly why I carry strong pepper spray. Works wonders on dogs, people, bears, etc… If all else fails, you still have a pistol as a backup. May also avoid a DGU incident, and expensive legal bills.

  17. “Shooting a dog is a big deal”. No it’s not. There are many more at the local shelters, get another one.

    • I can’t speak for this woman in this article but, for most people a dog is more than just a dog.

      • If that was true for her, she wouldn’t have let it menace people on multiple prior occasions. She set that dog up to get shot.

    • Heck, half the dogs in the Lacy St. animal shelter in LA are pits and chihuahuas. A lot of them have been abused. Some can be saved, others I wouldn’t trust in my home or near my kids.

      Our rescue dog is a lab / beagle. She was abused as a puppy by construction workers, and still doesn’t like them. She was abandoned in the desert near Joshua Tree.

      With that being said, if our dog(s) showed aggressive behavior towards kids or dogs that we couldn’t train away, we would have gotten rid of her or put her down. Human safety trumps animal life. I could understand someone shooting our Weimaraner if she got loose. She can be a scary looking dog.

  18. Waiting for the Trib to mention that Oreo was an obedience school honor student that was just turning his life around… lol.

  19. Bad owner rather than a bad dog. I think he was justified considering he’d been bitten by it before. But adrenalin accounting for misjudging 11 feet of space? That’s pretty funny.

  20. Any dog off it’s owners property unsupervised is fair game. And after one “got out and bit someone” incident Oreo should have been put down. It’s great that you love your dog but ALL people are above them in the order of life and if you choose to not teach the dog that, then bad things can and will happen. If you want a dog for protection, fine, but it had better not EVER be out of you or your designee’s control.

    • I think law enforcement might disagree with you, especially within city limits. If a dog is not demonstrating aggression, you may be charged with discharging a firearm and destruction of property. (Dogs are property).

      • That does make some sense. Running around poaching dogs is kind of excessive….

        Not differentiating between a dog and a wolf or bear, makes sense, though. A bear charging towards you may just want to play, or is curious, or in supposedly 90% of aggression cases simply bluff charge. But unless you are very darned confident in your judgment as a bear shrink, shooting it is hardly unjustifiable.

      • My Grandpa would routinely shoot any strays that wandered onto his farm. If you love your pet keep it safe. Letting it wander opens it up to harm.

  21. “Breed is a poor sole predictor of dog bites. Controlled studies reveal no increased risk for the group blamed most often for dog bites, ‘pit bull-type’ dogs. Accordingly, targeting this breed or any another as a basis for dog bite prevention is unfounded. As stated by the National Animal Control Association: “’Dangerous and/or vicious animals should be labeled as such as a result of their actions or behavior and not because of their breed.’”

    https://www.avma.org/KB/Resources/LiteratureReviews/Pages/The-Role-of-Breed-in-Dog-Bite-Risk-and-Prevention.aspx

    origins and original intention mattered, but after hundreds of years (in some breeds cases) those original intentions have been hopelessly lost in certain strains/ bloodlines. dogs bred for purely (other; primarily dog) animal aggression have been rebred for human aggressiveness.

    don’t ask the postman- ask the meter reader who trespasses into the canines backyard territory. nine years and over one million meters read (>13,000 per month including apartment buildings) there were maybe three that spoke the convincing language of “you’re not coming in.” a healthy springy length of buckthorn whistling in their face with nose contact for the difficult to convince was always effective. pits were no different than rotts, sheps, or dobes, with mixed breeds right there. watch the presa, the corso and the dogo. but they’ll let you know.
    the postman leaves everytime the dog barks. classical conditioning. the aggressive, bonus hungry meter reader comes in every month; you work it out between the two of you.

  22. Only ever killed one dog. A german shephard that was part of a pack(likely family pets let lose for the day) that surrounded me in the woods. They were snarling and barking and dashing in at me.

    When the shephard came st5raight in with ears back and teeth showing I put a .22 DOWN thru the top of his skull. He was close enough that I shot damn near straight down. Dropped him dead and the others took off.

    Any large, unleashed dog is a threat. When they pack up they’re downright lethal.

  23. Serious question:

    Would you shoot a dog to save your dog’s life (or health) if your own life and health was not in danger?

    • Short answer. Yes. When you take a dog into your home you accept full responsibility for his care and actions.

    • Yes. Legally dogs are property you’re allowed to destroy property that is threatening your property. Also if a dog is willing to attack your dog while you are standing right there, nothing says they won’t attack you next or a kid. I’ve explained this to my children and told them that they aren’t allowed to be more than 20 ft from me in a dog park.

    • Yes, my dog is better than the aggressor dog.

      By the way, how will you ever know that you’re not in danger? What’s to keep the aggressor dog from turning on you in the frenzy? Or in my case, one of my kids? Many, many cops are bit by K9’s that can’t distinguish who the bad guy is, and those dogs are trained about as well as can be.

    • I’m surprised at the affirmative answers. I was called a troll on this forum several weeks ago for admitting to shooting a neighbor’s aggressive dog that was trespassing on my property. I shot it with my little boy’s daisy bb gun while it was trying to fight with my dog.

  24. Sad, I guess that’s the dog version of the 2 year old graduation photo offered when a human gets killed after doing something stupid.

    ” and proof that you shouldn’t offer police any specific information on any shooting before speaking with a lawyer…”

    And there we have typical internet lawyer advice that will, if followed, make sure you are paying a real lawyer to try and get you out of jail. If you’re guilty, shut up. If you’re innocent, and you act guilty, you’ll be treated guilty by the system and that might include jurors. You have the right to remain silent, of course, but using this scenario to try and argue for not talking to the police makes no sense whatsoever since the police obviously believed this guy.

    Tucker Max’s advice about cops is great: http://tuckermax.me/how-to-deal-with-cops-2/
    “You know what does work? Telling the whole fucking truth, even if it sounds ridiculous. If you do, no matter how many times the cops ask you the same questions, your answers are going to be consistent because you’re telling the truth. And, if you actually are innocent, everything will be OK. This isn’t about “trusting the system,” this is about fixing where you code in the cops brain, either as “Citizen” or “Criminal.” Citizens tell the truth; Criminals lie. You want the cop to see you as a Citizen.”

  25. I keep my dogs in the house or in a large fenced in area in the backyard. If I take them to a park, they are then on a leash. Most of my dogs are very low in aggression, but I do have one that I just do not trust around strangers.
    Surprisingly, the one dog that is totally non aggressive and is a plush play toy is the brother to the sister dog who can get fairly aggressive or protective. Both came out of the same shelter and were raised in the same environment.

  26. My $0.02 as an owner of multiple large dogs is this.

    The blame for this lies with the owner. This is something a simple shock collar could have fixed. It’s clear that the dog didn’t have much (if any) discipline. The owner was likely in way over their head. [Note, by saying they were in over their head I am in no way trying to let the owner off the hook. This owner was straight out negligent.]

    That said, the dog was likely trying to play. If a dog like this wants to hurt someone it’s going to. With the speed an animal like this can move the 21′ rule becomes at least the 50′ rule or you’re getting bitten and bitten badly. The fact that no one was hurt suggests strongly that this was a dog with an owner that set no boundaries and therefore the dog didn’t understand that this mode of “play” was unacceptable.

    It’s also rather clear to me that the guy who shot the dog did have a bit of a vendetta against the dog. Now, that doesn’t mean that he was wrong in this instance, in fact I think he did the right thing given the circumstances, but it does mean his judgement was a bit clouded by previous run-ins with this dog and he therefore might not be making unbiased judgments about the dog’s behavior. Either way, this guy decided to step up and protect other people. There’s nothing to say that this wasn’t the time “Oreo” pushed things too far, started a fight with the GSD which is trying to protect it’s owner and things got way out of hand (or paw as the case may be) with the GSD and it’s owner severely injured. Better to err on the side of the “bad” dog getting hurt than anyone else or their dogs.

    Shooting the dog at 10-12 feet seems to be a bit much on the face of it, but given the nature of adrenaline it’s entirely possible that range seemed like 3″ to the shooter. I’m not going to second guess the guy on that. Obviously other witnesses thought this Pit was out of control and at least mostly corroborated this guy’s story.

    It’s sad that it all could have been solved by a $20 book and a $100 shock collar long before it ever got to this point.

    • The main problem with shock collars is that the dog knows that when the collar is off, there is nothing to fear.

      It is far better to instill discipline in the dog with proper training, focusing on positive reinforcement. Obedience is important, but so is a gentle nature. Shock collars often result in a very disturbed doggie.

      • Nine dogs in my adult life (not all mine, but all lived with me at one point or another, long story there), all wore shock collars to train them in certain regards.

        0 problems. People thought my roommate and I were magicians. It’s all about the application and it teaches them that they can’t simply get outside your hand reach and do what they want. I’ve never had to shock a dog more than half a dozen or so times.

        Also, yes, if you rely ONLY on the collar they will know when they’re not wearing it, but there are tricks you can use to get around that and the collar should only be used to teach them not to do things that can harm them (like running across a road) and for field training purposes.

        These things also shouldn’t be used the way most people use them which is shocking until the dog complies. That will screw the dog up. Starting them out in the house, then on the leash, then using the shock collar off the leash ensures they already know what they’re supposed to be doing and you only have to “remind” them a couple times by shocking them for a moment when they’re NOT listening.

        I can walk down the street with 4 Plotts and a GSD all following at my heals, under absolute voice control without leashes or shock collars. Crowds don’t matter, other dogs don’t matter. It’s almost exactly like the guy in the video I’ll link below but he did it with all GSDs.

    • With the speed an animal like this can move the 21′ rule becomes at least the 50′ rule or you’re getting bitten and bitten badly.

      Shooting the dog at 10-12 feet seems to be a bit much on the face of it, but given the nature of adrenaline it’s entirely possible that range seemed like 3″ to the shooter.

      Given the first statement, by your own appraisal, 10-12 feet might as well have been 3″ as it was well within the 21′ rule, no less 50′.

      • You’ll note that my statement is predicated on the dog actually attacking you… not one that’s playing which is what I suspect this dog was doing based on the fact that it got this close and no one was injured.

        • I’ve seen dogs that will menace and feint, working themselves up to bite, establishing control over their target. There’s a whole range of behavior in between “immediate, committed attack” and “playing.”

          I doubt this dog was behaving a manner that any reasonable person would recognize as “playful,” given its priors — the owner had been ticketed at least twice because this dog had bitten people. If it weren’t for the priors, I’d give the dog the benefit of the doubt, but this dog was a tragedy waiting to happen. It’s a blessing that this dog will never go on to seriously injure someone.

          If a dog is behaving that way, why wait? As you said, 12′ is nothing. If it makes the decision to attack, it will be too late to stop it without injury.

        • @Cloudbuster:

          When a dog is, as you say, “establishing control over their target” (exactly what they’re doing when they’re doing what you describe btw, they’re sizing up your reaction to their behavior) this is when you draw your gun to a low ready just in case and then try break the dog’s cycle of dominant behavior.

          Dogs are pretty simple creatures and what the dog is doing is getting more and more wound up while establishing dominance over you. If you allow this to continue the dog may eventually judge you to be weak and attack. If you don’t allow the dominance to be established you will break the cycle of the dog getting wound up and it will usually leave you alone.

          This is much harder to do if facing a pack however. Against 3-4 or more dogs that you don’t know, I would back away slowly with the gun at the low ready while making a lot of noise and the occasional forward stomp with one foot (to take back the distance they’re gaining and try to put them in a different mind state where you’re not some sort of prey or unwilling to defend yourself). If this doesn’t work and you can’t slowly back away to a safe area like a car or building, you’re likely going to have to shoot.

          Against a single dog, unless it’s rabid, been taught to attack or absolutely enraged (in which case you’ll probably already be bitten) you should be able to startle the dog into leaving you alone by breaking the cycle it’s gotten itself into. It’s a lot like dealing with a dog that’s terrified of thunderstorms. You have to break that cycle of fear or the dog just gets more and more worked up with each clap of thunder.

  27. All you folks who believe that “any unleashed dog is fair game”, please remember that unless a dog is clearly behaving in an aggressive manner, you may be cited for unlawfully discharging a firearm and/or destruction of property if you shoot it. You may even lose the right to own or carry firearms.

    So think twice before you go out hunting in the neighborhood for strays.

      • No, I don’t buy into the whole strawman conspiracy theory. And most of the posters here seem pretty decent.

        But there are a few who have stated that they will shoot any off leash dog that approaches them. That is unwise.

        An ignorant couple decided to shoot a friendly dog one day in my fair city. The local news organizations published their names, their address, and several pictures of them, just so everybody in the sizable community of Boise, Idaho, USA would know who these despicable paranoids were. And yes, law enforcement was very much involved.

        So if you don’t want the guvment poking around in your bizness, don’t shoot friendly dogs.

        P.S. The dog survived and fully recovered.

  28. I’m kind of surprised by all the “this is so sad” or “this tragedy could have been averted if…”.
    I love dogs. One of the hardest days in my life was when I had to put down my dog (part Pit mutt, actually). Couldn’t think or talk about it for months without crying. I can see why Pit Bulls are so loved – but in my experience, that dog WAS wired different and was not entirely stable, which is part of why he was put down (being badly injured by a car was the other part).

    But dogs aren’t people. And if they’ve already demonstrated a willingness to bite or kill, then when they go at it again, then their life is forfeit. And if I ever catch one in an attack on a person that goes beyond a single bite, and it’s not broken off… there will probably be shots fired.
    Sad? Yeah, kinda.
    I remember when my Dad put down a serial chicken killer. I knew the family had kids. I knew this was their pet. But I knew it kept getting away and killing my sister’s chickens. I knew the owner hadn’t made a priority of keeping Lucky chained up.
    So when Lucky was caught one time too many, chicken in mouth, Dad took him out into the woods and I got to see the end result of a failure to take responsibility (that was about 20 years ago, and I still remember it vividly). I was sad for the kids that wouldn’t have a pet anymore – but that wasn’t our problem.

    People need to learn that some failures or mistakes lead to irreversible consequences.
    So many people make excuses for criminals killed in their crime “he was just an aspiring rapper” or whatever.
    Dudes, some bad decisions lead to death. Live with it. Or not. Your call.
    That’s the world we live in.

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