Walmart greeter (courtesy abcnews.go.com)

“To comply with state liquor rules, the world’s biggest retailer sent a written notice last month to stores that sell alcohol, telling managers to ensure that customers who openly carry firearms under a new law have licenses,” bloomberg.com (yes that Bloomberg) reports. “Cashiers or door greeters who see someone with a gun are to alert the highest-ranking employee, who is to approach the customer and ask to see the paperwork.” Focus your attention on the alcohol-selling bit . . .

Wal-Mart and other retailers that sell beer, wine and spirits fall under the authority of the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission, which prohibits unlicensed handguns in establishments that offer such products for off-premises consumption. An establishment can lose its liquor license if it “knowingly allows” a person to bring an illegal firearm on the premises, said Chris Porter, spokesman for the agency.

Previously a shopper could have been walking the aisles with a concealed weapon — legal in Texas for two decades — and store clerks wouldn’t have known. Under the new law, the only way to ensure compliance is to ask a customer with a gun for a permit.

“Now that it’s open carry, that creates a new space that you have to cover,” said George Kelemen, chief executive officer of the Texas Retailers Association. Stores like Wal-Mart want “to make absolutely sure that the message they convey is, ‘We welcome your patronage, but we sell alcohol and we don’t want to risk losing the ability to do that.”’

Yeah, not feeling it. If a Walmart employee doesn’t know if an open carrier is carrying illegally, how can it be said that he or she “knowingly” allowed a person to bring an illegally held firearm onto the premises? To its credit, BloombergBusiness ends its piece with a tale of customer annoyance.

When 25-year-old Ashley Bravo de Rueda walked into a Wal-Mart in Wichita Falls on Sunday night to buy pacifiers for her infant son and dog food, she did so with her Bersa Thunder .380 pistol on her hip. Almost immediately she was approached by an employee.

“She said, ‘Ma’am, you are more than welcome to carry a gun like that, but I’m going to need to see your license,’” Bravo de Rueda recalled.

Startled by the encounter, Bravo de Rueda nonetheless pulled out her permit and proceeded to shop.

“The whole time I felt like I was looking over my shoulder,” she said. “To me, I’m lawfully carrying. I should not be stopped for something that I am not doing wrong.”

This sounds like a lawyer-driven policy -one that will lose the company business. Personally, I wouldn’t put up with it. You?

[h/t SD]

183 Responses to Texas Walmart to Open Carriers: Show Us Your Papers!

  1. Oh great. Now the same lady that has to come over and sell the booze to the people that couldn’t read that the checker can’t sell the booze is going to be off checking papers. And the lines at the return counter.

    • What happens when I buy a lon gun or muzzle loader and walk out the door with it. I don’t need no stinking papers to open carry- just conceal. So doesn’t that create a catch-22? Now people will be walking inside the store with a firearm and no CCW.

        • But I’ll bet you had just purchased a FIREARM, though. Don’t forget, any arm designed for black powder is NOT a firearm, at least not by the GCA of ’69. That’s why you can buy flintlocks or percussion arms, including cap and ball repeaters, even over the internet or mail order, without a form 4473. You could also carry them in Texas, even before the new law, like some did at the right to carry rallies where most others were carrying rifles.

    • It is my understanding, and I could be wrong here, but…
      My understanding is, that the store owners do not need to ask. In fact they would not be held libel. Basically they don’t need to ask people to produce a license.
      I believe TOC has been working with local law enforcement and TABC to get definitive ruling so they can educate retailers.

  2. Nope, I’m not legally obligated to show my permit to anyone other than law enforcement or other gov’t entities, and I won’t. They simply won’t get my business. And the manager and corporate would get a piece of my mind. I don’t need walmart, or any other business that wants to pull that crap.

    On another note, I read a Facebook post this morning by a friend of a friend in Texas. She was planning her Saturday shopping around 30.06 and .07 signs, avoiding places that allow open and concealed carry. Pathetic.

    • She won’t get much shopping done that way in Texas. And doesn’t she know that 30.07 still allows guns to be all around her? If I were gun-o-phobic, that would bother me even more than the ones you can see.

      • The same thing dawned on me while eating lunch at P Terry’s the other day with my CC on my hip. P Terry’s put up 30.07 signs right at the beginning of the new year. So any busy bodies eating there have the comfort of “out of sight out of mind”, which, lets be honest, is all they really want – to feel safe and unthreatened, whether they actually are or not.

        • Maybe the rank-and-file sheep but the hardcore antigunner wants the firearms covered so that their propaganda is not exposed for the sham that it is. If many everyday people are bearing arms in the open, it disproves their lies. The strategy is to keep guns out of sight so that people do not question the antigun narrative.

      • I realize “Texas” and “Austin” aren’t the same thing, but I just returned from an Austin trip and was pretty darn surprised just how much shopping and eating and such you could actually do only at places with 30.06 and/or 30.07 signage.

    • I don’t know for sure, but I think Texas and Missouri gun laws are the same. In Missouri, you do not have to have a permit of any kind to open carry any type of firearm. You just to have a permit to conceal it. Of course it doesn’t make any sense.

      • In Texas you need a permit to carry a handgun on your person, whether open or concealed. No permit is required to carry a long gun ANYWHERE they’re legal. You can carry any gun you like in your automobile, no license required, and as of Jan 1, 2016 you no longer need to conceal your handgun (licensed or unlicensed) in your vehicle.

        In Texas, Wal Mart now carries all gun and ammo purchases outside the store building and delivers it to you in the parking lot. Silly, but that’s their rule. What surprises me much more than that is that “H.E.B.”, giant Texas based Supermarket chain, DOES NOT ALLOW open carry inside their stores! Concealed carry is still OK. That makes no sense what-so-ever and I’ll bet they come to regret that policy decision…

  3. Walmart could lose their license to sell alcohol if they don’t ask for the concealed carry license?
    I smell a pro-gun-activist hidden camera sting operation coming. Catch em not asking for the papers then deliver evidence to a prosecutor.

    • How would such a sting be pro-gun? It would almost certainly result in Wal-Mart just prohibiting open carry altogether in its Texas stores.

      • I’m guessing they meant “pro-gun-control-activists” and their brains worked faster than their fingers.

      • Not to mention that it wouldn’t do them any good anyways. The only one that would cause trouble for is that Malmart’s manager, for not following the holy memo from above.
        There is no law about this, its only about the Liqour board. And even if it was about a law, instead of the bureaucracy’s sacred proceedures, it still wouldn’t do the antis any good, for no law would be broken unless the one in question WAS carring openly without a license. So long as the one carrying possesses such license, NO LAW was broken, thus no charges would ever stick. And a person would have to be REAL stupid(more than average) to carry openly into a Walmart w/o one and then refuse to show papers, while waiting around for the police to show up. Something on the order of a tree frog, and that might be an insult to tree frogs everywhere!

    • This sounds like BS to me! Nothing in the new law changed WHERE a gun can be legally carried in Texas! The only real change is that NOW a Police Officer can ask for your license for NO CAUSE AT ALL! They couldn’t under the law governing concealed carry…

  4. I avoid wal mart like the plague. But it’s their store. If they want to check your papers, it’s their choice.

    Liqour stores card people all the time. This is on that same level.

    • I get a guilty pleasure from telling them to pound sand after they want to make me wait so they can pretend to look at a receipt after I’ve waited 15 minutes in line…

      • I never stop for them to check my receipt. There is no sign or anything saying i agree to have myself searched before I leave their store. Its not like I’m demanding to see their bank statements when i eave to make sure they aren’t stealing from my bank account. It might be petty but I detest be treated like a criminal or potential criminal.

        • I seldom go to China MART, but on one occasion I was walking out the store with a bag of ammo and a young black male about 19 and well dressed (college athletic wear, not Gangsta) was walking out at the same time, the checker kid (also maybe 18 or 19) checked the youths bag and receipt but not mine, I made it a point to tell the 2 males on the way out that that was F-king Racist.

  5. I’d like to see what would happen if 100+ people who were open carrying showed up. Would they make them wait at the entrance and potentially frighten shoppers as they approach, or at the very least clog the entrance? Would they let them in and have the highest ranking employee track each one down?

  6. What part of the new Texas statute authorizes non-LEO to compel citizens to produce their licenses?

    As far as I’m aware, businesses have two options:

    1. Put up statutorily appropriate signage
    2. STFU

    • I would also like to add that this bit is complete bovine excrement:

      Wal-Mart and other retailers that sell beer, wine and spirits fall under the authority of the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission, which prohibits unlicensed handguns in establishments that offer such products for off-premises consumption. An establishment can lose its liquor license if it “knowingly allows” a person to bring an illegal firearm on the premises, said Chris Porter, spokesman for the agency.

      Perhaps WalMart needs to re-read the decision in US v Black, to wit:

      “Being a felon in possession of a firearm is not the default status. More importantly, where a state permits individuals to openly carry firearms, the exercise of this right, without more, cannot justify an investigatory detention. Permitting such a justification would eviscerate Fourth Amendment protections for lawfully armed individuals in those states.”

      http://www.ca4.uscourts.gov/opinions/Published/115084.p.pdf

      If it’s good enough to control interactions of LEO with otherwise law-abiding citizens, then it is good enough for the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission, with respect to (alcohol) licensees and their interactions with patrons.

      • If you feel so strong about it, why don’t you get the TABC to publish some guidelines on the new law. While there is some uncertainty, why do you want to risk someone else’s business?

        • Their business isn’t at risk, and they know it. This is just an attempt to harass law-abiding open carriers – either by the licensee or by TABC.

        • Chip, Walmart here and in Kentucky have been very friendly to us. I think someone has gotten Walmart worked up over Texas law. It sounds like fear mongering tactics on the part of the antis. If some group can approach corporate with actual facts, I think this whole Walmart issue will go away.

          Walmart corporate has consistently said that they follow state law regarding firearms. So, I believe that if someone shows them state law and explains to them what it means, Walmart will back off of this position.

        • So there is an even better answer. Someone in Texas needs to print out;
          http://www.ca4.uscourts.gov/opinions/Published/115084.p.pdf
          and the TABC rules, and carry both with them into a Walmart while carrying openly. When the highest ranking Walmart slave present asks you for your papers, you provide the TABC guideline AND the Court Decision, and then refuse to show papers on that basis.That would be an excellent way to get WM to look at its stupid policy, and WITHOUT waiting for 13 months to get to talk to someone in charge. Thanks to the memo, he will come to you!
          The debate here is kind of pointless, because I’ll bet a lot of Texans will start doing similar, and point out WMs stupidity quickly enough. Probably within a month…

      • I think the problem may be that you are giving too much credit to Wal-Mart’s legal team. I doubt they have anyone on staff familiar with the case that you referred to. I also doubt that they brought in outside counsel to inform creation of the policy. I’m not saying that you are wrong: I am saying that Wal-Mart has an incentive to be conservative in protecting itself from liability and not enough incentive to understand the truly limited nature of its liability, which by the way is not easily understood.

        • +1.

          Something similar had come up a while back regarding radio frequency usage. Walmart had a business license for some channels that the FCC later made open through license by rule; those five freqiencies comprising MURS. Many assumed that Walmart’s corporate lawyers already had advised on the facts and that ended up not being the case. They were making policy decisions based upon non-attorney opinions.

        • That decision is not relevent. That decision does not apply to a WM employee. First, it only applies to police officers, and second it is by the Court of Appeals for the Fourth Circuit which has no jurisdiction over Texas.

          The new open carry law allows police to check your CHL, but not anyone else. I would reply to the WM employee that I will produce my CHL as soon as he shows me his police badge.

      • two things

        to Chip…though i agree with the idea of the ruling, If asked to leave I’d leave ( doesn’t matter civil or criminal trespass) don’t want to hassle either way. although most times cops seem to probably cite criminal trespass.

        number 2… If one has a conceal carry permit WHY bother Open carry, out of sight safer less hassle!

    • You aren’t “compelled” to show the manager your license. But if you don’t, the manager can tell you to leave. And if you refuse to leave, you are then liable to be the subject of a “criminal trespass” call. That is the only sanction available to them.

      • But if you don’t, the manager can tell you to leave. And if you refuse to leave, you are then liable to be the subject of a “criminal trespass” call.

        Criminal trespass? Not merely civil trespass? And wouldn’t the manager have to call the police first, and then the patron refuse to leave after being asked to do so by the police officer?

        And then: to what sort of discrimination lawsuit would the manager be exposing WalMart, for refusing service to a law-abiding patron?

        • Yes, criminal trespass. Class B misdemeanor, up to 180 days in the county pokey and/or up to $1000 fine. I practiced law for over 20 years here, and have never seen a civil trespass lawsuit filed, altho I believe it technically exists in some form here. And no, it is the property owner/manager who gives or withdraws permission to enter/remain on the property, not the police officer. Once the person in control of the property tells someone to leave, for whatever reason, and that person refuses, that person is in violation of the criminal trespass statute. If the property owner wants to pursue the charge once an officer arrives at the scene, that’s that, an arrest can be made. As a practical matter, what is likely to happen is that once an officer arrives, the “trespasser” will agree to go ahead and leave rather than be arrested, and the property owner can leave it at that if they so desire. As for a “discrimination” lawsuit–well, you can file anything you want if you have the filing fee. But the chance of success would be pretty slim unless you are in the currently-favored oppressed minority class, whatever that might be.

        • OK, something just occurred to me–since it is a misdemeanor, the offense would have to be committed in the officer’s presence for an immediate arrest to be made. So in that sense–the manager would have to tell the person to leave in the officer’s presence and the person continue to refuse for an immediate arrest to happen.

        • Yes, CRIMINAL trespass, as it is in most (if not all) states. You have no right to be on someone else’s property and that’s why we have laws against it.

        • Chip, in Ohio, it is how you describe it. They would have to first call the police so that the individual could be told not to return (“trespassed”) in the presence of an officer. Only when and if they return (or fail to leave) after that would it be criminal trespass. I guess their notice signed by apprehended shoplifters also works? However, I’m not sure why any open carrier would sign such a document. It would be foolish to do so.

        • You are WRONG (the worst kind of wrong, because you’re trying to correct someone who knows what he is talking about) and have no idea of property right and trespass law.They can tell you to leave for any reason or no reason* and if you then remain on the property, you are trespassing.

          *exceptions may include protected classes; i.e. forcing you to leave because you are black, a woman, etc would likely cause a problem.

        • You are WRONG (the worst kind of wrong, because you’re trying to correct someone who knows what he is talking about) and have no idea of property right and trespass law.They can tell you to leave for any reason or no reason* and if you then remain on the property, you are trespassing.

          So, there was some confusion on my part. I didn’t really mean civil vs criminal trespass. (That makes no sense, really, if a police officer is involved.) I was referring to the nature/severity of the criminal charge.

          Another Robert addressed it more succinctly: it’s still just garden-variety, misdemeanor trespass, that the police officer must witness – so, the police officer asks you to comply with the business owner’s request, and if you continue to refuse, then he cites/arrests you for trespass.

          *exceptions may include protected classes; i.e. forcing you to leave because you are black, a woman, etc would likely cause a problem

          …yes, because apparently, the Equal Protection clause is no longer a thing.

  7. Sounds like a great place for an open carry org to show up enmass like 400-1000 of em and bog all the walmarts down to a crawl. Then tell em’ “we’re not protesting, we’re shopping!” Tupperware Saturday! Then just for fun post that walmat x just recieved 14 pallets of .22 ammo and 5 pallets of .22 mag. muhhahahahhaaaa!

    • Walmart in Ohio has allowed us to protest while armed with rifles inside the store. We didn’t even have to pretend to be shopping.

      • Open carriers come and go here in WIsconsin and WalMart doesn’t blink an eye. No permit required, so they can’t ask to see it.

        • Yep, same as in Ohio. Hopefully, if Texans are diligent, they too will outgrow these teething pains. I sincerely hope they get unlicensed open carry soon. Complete constitutional carry across the board would be even better but we don’t even have that again in Ohio yet.

  8. Sounds like Texas needs to change their law in regards to requiring a license. Unlike VA where, one: you can’t sell alcohol (other than beer/wine) in any other store other than vaabc and two: we don’t have a law prohibiting carry in any establishment that sells alcohol. It is still illegal to consume alcohol though.

  9. Give Walmart a break. There is probably case law about it already. At the very least do you think any place could get away with not checking ID if they served or sold alcohol. Texas needs to just get the law changed.

    • I think Wal-Mart is wrong; if you don’t ask, then you don’t “know”, and you can’t be charged with “knowingly” allowing an “unlicensed” gun onto your liquor-licensed premises. But I can’t really fault them for being over-cautious; TABC can get pretty aggressive exercising their perogatives.

      • Wal mart can afford a bunch of lawyers. It’s reasonable to assume their legal people have already reviewed this policy.

        • Yup, they just don’t want the headache. And as a former administrative law judge, I can tell you that ABC will pretty much do what it wants, even if the licensee gets an administrative hearing and the ALJ finds in the licensee’s favor.

        • JWM, that is a bad assumption. When we had to work with Walmart corporate for Ohio, they actually did not really understand the law that well. Once it was explained to them and shown to them, most problems open carrying in Walmart dropped away. I really think someone from the anti side has been feeding Walmart corporate a load of manure about Texas law. If level heads approach Walmart with the facts, I think this could be resolved. Walmart consistently has stated that they follow state law regarding firearm carry in their stores.

        • I absolutely agree with John in Ohio. I have interacted with several dozen corporate attorneys. They are generally not concerned with nor knowledgeable of firearms laws beyond understanding what signage must be posted at work or retail sites. There are always bigger fish to fry.

      • This is one of the many problems with requiring a license to open carry. It took us some time to educate the public and businesses as to the fact that we have not needed a license to open carry in Ohio since at least 1851. When a license is required to do something, many will assume that they have to verify your legal privilege to do it. Please, Texas, make constitutional open carry a very high priority, if not the highest.

    • Absolute BS, the actual liquor stores in TX don’t do this. There are signs saying carry without a license is prohibited, but nobody plays cop.

    • Sorry Binder, but the problem is you are just not understanding the huge differences between a law passed by the State of Texas, and a memo from Walmart Inc.
      You DO understand the difference between a law and a store policy, do you not? Or are you just another of the antis that hang out here to try and cause as much trouble as possible?

  10. They are not officers of the law so they can’t require me to produce my license though I suppose they could turn me away. One more reason not to go to Walmart

  11. Doubt thugs,thieves & gang bangers are going to start Open Carrying in stores. More likely to creep around in parking lot. And yes, it is a lawyer thing, and losing alcohol license a bigger thing. Don’t want to show HGL? Put the handgun in your pocket.

    • No they aren’t–I have one right next to me now, at my shop, on premises that I am in control of. And I can carry it back to my truck, and from my truck to any other premises that I have control over, or that I have permission to carry from the person who has control. Technically, if Wal-Mart management wanted to, they could give permission to anyone to carry a handgun on their premises, license or no. that is a property owner’s/agent of the owner’s prerogative. But it would be ABC’s prerogative to pull WM’s liquor license if they did.

      • Well, pardon me. You are correct, of course. I meant businesses of all kinds which you do not own, or have permission from, unless you are a police officer, yada yada yada. Like a grocery store, a gas station, a Walmart which does not sell alcohol, car dealership, library, walking through the park, onandonandonandon, or more simply: everywhere! I think it’s obvious I did not mean in your bedroom or at the range. But it has nothing to do with rules under TABC, it’s *everywhere*! Therefore, their signs and extraneous threats are meaningless and idiotic.

        • Well, it has to do with TABC in that, this policy is only applicable at Wal-Marts that sell liquor–which is not necessarily all Wal-Marts. Again, I think they are wrong in their interpretation, but I don’t blame them for wanting to avoid any possible confrontation with TABC.

  12. Open carry is a great thing. But lots of opened cans of worms will be around for a while at first. Personally i’d rather conceal carry anyway..

  13. 1. Friends don’t let friends shop Wal-Mart.
    2. If friends want to shop Wal-Mart, you need new friends.
    3. When there is reasonable cause, Law Enforcement may require ID and permits.
    4. Wal-Mart, not so much. Except perhaps to purchase ATF
    5. More proof that ATF should be a convenience store.

    • I do not *shop* at wal-mart, but you can’t deny they have the best prices on ammo and motor oil anywhere. So I’ll pop in the back door and be out with one or both before I even have a chance to see a fat lady with a thong wedged up her crack, or a bearded old man with breast implants.

    • I admit to being a Walmartian. I try to shop at Kroger as much as possible because of their pro-gun stance. However, Walmart has consistently followed state law regarding firearm carry. Frankly, there’s not a lot to do in the small town nearest the farm and Walmart is always entertaining. Some have told me that I am part of the entertainment. :B)

      • At the Walmart I work for, people-watching is commonly practiced by a couple old timers who don’t really have much to do, and who know pretty much everyone in town. They sit on the bench outside customer service, drink coffee, and often engage other customers with friendly banter. Some of their observations have been pretty hilareous.
        My store management also gives zero-f**ks about open carriers. It’s quite common, and the only time I’ve heard it questioned it was by a coworker who had recently transfered from another store in a slave-state. It was very satisfying to be able to set her straight on open carry in Alabama.

        • You pretty much described me except for the bench part. Back when I had to hobble around with a cane, I got to use the electric carts. That was fun. I get to talk policy with a lot of local public officials and spread the gospel of the right to keep and bear arms. If I am away for any length of time, everyone keeps asking me if I’ve been sick because they haven’t seen me at Walmart. lol

      • That sounds familiar John. When my wife and I are at odds our code phrase for ‘lets back down from each other’ is Do we need to go to Wal-Mart? It stems from several late night trips there when we were dating that descended into exhausted hilarity.

        On a side note, while I almost always conceal, I was approached once in an Ohio Wal-Mart about my pistol. My coat had inadvertently rode over the butt of my gun and become caught there. An elderly lady approached me and said ‘Sir, your gun is showing’ in about the same tone and with about as much concern as you might inform someone that their shoe was untied.

        On that note though, I’ve yet to encounter anyone here about (that being central-southern ohio) who seems to care if one is armed or not, excepting other POTG that is. On top of that, it seems that few enough even notice an openly carried pistol.

  14. That was my take on the “knowingly allows” language…the difference between concealed and open carrying does not create a “knowingly allow” condition. Indeed, it would be cumbersome at least to assume that all open carriers would be illegally carrying (let alone carrying an…um…illegal gun).

  15. §36.1 Possession and Sale of Firearms on Licensed Premises.

    In this section, the Off-Premise section reads:

    (b) Off-Premise Retailers and Gun Sales. The holder of a retail dealer’s off-premise license, a wine and beer retail dealer’s off-premise permit, a wine only package store or package store permit may allow the sale or offer for sale firearms at the licensed location if:
    (1) alcoholic beverages are not being displayed or sold in any area where firearms are readily accessible or can be viewed; and
    (2) the firearms are secure from the general public and are only accessible by employees of the person or entity offering the firearms for sale.

    I don’t see anything that would lead me to believe there are any penalties for customer’s who are carrying openly.

    Here is the specific text regarding possession of firearms for “On-Premise” consumption.

    (c) On-Premise Possession of Firearms. Firearms may be possessed on premises licensed for on-premise consumption if:
    (1) the firearm is in the possession of the permittee/licensee; or
    (2) the firearm is:
    (A) possessed for ceremonial and/or display purposes;
    (B) disabled from use as a firearm while on the licensed premises;
    (C) is possessed on the licensed premises in connection with charitable fundraising; and
    (D) remains in the possession, control or supervision of person or persons acting on behalf of the charitable organization sponsoring the fundraising activity.

    So, unless Walmart now has a On-Premise bar now, which would make Walmart much more entertaining I’m sure, they have nothing to worry about as far a licensing goes.

    As an aside, why is the “penalty” against the holder of the liquor sales license instead of the person carrying the gun onto the premise illegally? That rule/policy/law needs to be reworked.

    • The “penalty” for the person illegally carrying the gun is the “penalty” provided in the Unlawfully Carrying a Weapon statute. The “penalty” for the manager who knowingly allows illegally- guns on his premises is a separate matter.

      • Yes, section 36.1(b) is in regards to Off-Premise Sales AND Guns sales, which Walmart would fall. In this section there is NOTHING about permitted persons, only on how the Guns for sale are handled/stored.

        Section 36.1(c) is about On-Premise sales, of which Walmart isn’t in the business of. And as such 36.1(c)1 wouldn’t even apply.

        True or not?

        • 36(1) b refers only to sales of firearms; it doesn’t even address possession of firearms by customers. Is that your point? That obviously isn’t the same provision that prohibits unlicensed possession of handguns on liquor-licensed premises.

        • That is indeed my point. And the other section only applies to places that have on-premise consumption. At least that is what I am reading. And Walmart doesn’t fall under this category.

        • I think this is the important distinction:
          (c) On-Premise Possession of Firearms. Firearms may be possessed on premises licensed for on-premise consumption if:

          “on premises licensed for on-premise consumption”

          Walmart is certainly not licensed for on-premise consumption.

        • This issue had come up in Ohio at Kroger’s regarding wine tastings. It was finally settled that as long as the armed individual was not actually consuming the wine, it was a non-issue. The Texas open carry groups should get in touch with the Ohio open carry groups and share notes.

          I may be misremembering, but some Ohio Walmart might be licensed for consumption because of wine tastings. I know that was the case with some Kroger stores.

        • Here’s the problem: The section you are citing, 36.1(a), is a section of the Texas Administrative Code that deals specifically with gun shows, not with the everyday conduct of business. Hence the language about “offering firearms for sale”, etc. It is not the rule that Wal-Mart is concerned about here. That would be Section 11.61 of the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Code, which is the provision that states that a licensee can lose his license for allowing firearms on the premises.

        • Right, I found the one you were looking at when I googled the first time, but when I googled some more with different keywords I came up with that actual Alcoholic Beverage Code section.

        • But the Texas codes would still require the alcohol dealer to “knowingly allow” the firearm in question on his premises. And thanks to US v Black we can still show that “Being a felon in possession of a firearm is not the default status. More importantly, where a state permits individuals to openly carry firearms, the exercise of this right, without more, cannot justify an investigatory detention. Permitting such a justification would eviscerate Fourth Amendment protections for lawfully armed individuals in those states.”
          And if they DON’T KNOW the status of a patron, then they CANNOT be “knowingly” allowing such on their premises. And if a LEO “cannot justify an investigatory detention”, then how can Walmart?
          They cannot, and they will be shown that, probably quite soon. They CAN just ask anyone to leave, for whatever ‘reason’ they choose to make up. And whoever they do that to is still free to vote with their dollars and never darken a walmart’s doors again, which is exactly what everyone in the country should do anyway.

    • The final word in (C) is *AND*? Meaning all 4 of those restrictions are in effect at once? Good lord, but that is anal! A huge amount of specified restrictions in order to show off an unloaded gun (for some reason) at a charity fundraiser? WTF is up with that? Why not just say “you can’t do it”?

      Anybody with a question about “what is a slave state?” needs only look at this for a definition.

        • We have an issue like that with our stop and identify law in Ohio. If the officer has RAS, the individual is required to give some information about themself. Written in the law is the word “or” between each item. To some, “or” means “and” while to others “or” means “or”. It can be quite maddening.

  16. I tested it out this morning at a Wal Mart in Austin. I spent about 20 minutes there shopping. I even wore my brown leather holster rather than the black one so that it would stand out a little more. Either nobody noticed or nobody cared.

    • Exactly what I would expect. Were you surprised, even a little? I’d bet the same thing would have happened 6 months ago.

      I wonder if anyone in a Walmart sent a message back to corporate to KMA!?

      • I read the release as beer/wine/spirits. Not just spirits. The use of the term ‘liquor license’ sort of implies only liquor but in common use here in Tx, as I’m sure you are aware, implies any type of alcohol.

        Or did I miss something?

        • No, you are correct, I was just being loose in describing it as a “liquor license”.

  17. Then quote below is from Open Carry Texas Facebook page.

    It pretty much explains what’s going on with Walmart.

    “We have reached out to the TABC and were told by their legal counsel that businesses are not required to check the ID of its customers to be in compliance with the law. We have asked for a formal determination that we can provide and that they can disseminate to alcohol vendors making clear that their license isn’t in jeopardy for failing to ID since the default assumption for a person open carrying is that they are licensed to do so. Until then, please understand that Wal-Mart is acting out of an abundance of caution.

    Meanwhile, the gun grabbers are doing everything possible to make the peaceful exercise of this right as painful and difficult as possible. It still boggles the mind why all of the sudden when Texas joins nearly every other state to allow open carry this is suddenly an issue. We suspect it has something to do with their doomed to fail attempts to turn Texas blue.”

    • Outstanding. That’s the way to handle it.

      Generally, wal-mart follows state law so if they are shown state law, corporate policy follows.

      • Not quite. The way to handle it is to refuse on the grounds that in Texas, it is only legal for a LEO to ask that. Then inform them that any private property has the right to ask you to leave, and you would be happy to do so, and just spend your money elsewhere. And if they are still unsure they should call the Police.
        This way, after the first hundred or so calls on leagal carriers, the police themselves will inform that store to STOP DOING THAT!
        THIS is what the whole idea of open carry was about in the first place. NEVER forget THAT, its important! We always knew there would be a learning curve to climb, and this is it. We need to EDUCATE the sheeple, NOT fight with them, NOR just give in!

        • If Walmart had given us open carriers difficulty in any other location, I would wholeheartedly agree with you. However, this is something of an anomaly for Walmart. I think it really is just a misunderstanding. Walmart has been good, actually more than good, about leaving armed individuals alone. But, I’m not here to tell you how to do things in Texas and I will support anything y’all decide to do. Carry on.

  18. This sounds really out of character for Walmart. Here in Ohio, we have no problems with open carrying in Walmart. There have been a few issues at individual stores in the past but it seems like we are beyond that now. In fact, the Walmart in Beavercreek Ohio welcomed us when we were all carrying rifles. I open carry all the time in Walmart and we have the CHL requirement for businesses that have a certain class liquor license. Corporate stores like Walmart and Kroger have been through this already in Ohio so it isn’t like this is something new for them. It sounds to me like some miscommunication or misunderstanding on the part of Walmart.

    I hope y’all in Texas get this sorted quickly. It would be a real pain in the behind to have to show a license just to go into Walmart.

  19. Just ignore the mindless fecks and go on about your business. They’ll either learn – or they won’t.

    Tom

  20. I’ll show you mine if you show me yours … just ask them to get a copy of their liquor license and meet you somewhere in the store to exchange “looks”. No biggee.

  21. Here is how this game is played:

    Walmart Employee: Excuse me Sir/Ma’am I notice you are open carrying, I’ll need to see your license for carry please. I need to make sure you are legally carrying.

    Patron: Hi. Thanks for noticing. I can assure you that I am carrying legally, and I will not produce my license. If that is an issue for you, than I am more than happy to leave. I will also not be returning. So may I proceed?

    End of discussion. Proceed or leave.

  22. Huh. We’ve had open carry here in Oklahoma since November 1, 2012, and I’ve never seen an open carrier stopped and asked for his permit at our local WalMarts. We don’t have many people choosing open carry in my area, but you do see it on occasion.

    • Yep. Unlicensed open carry has been legal in Ohio since at least 1851. After we got stuck with CHL laws in 2005, open carry became more prevalent. Except for a few initial hiccups, it is now smooth sailing for those exercising their natural right to bear arms in public. Walmart tends to be pretty good in that they follow state law. I think someone fed Walmart in Texas some incorrect information.

  23. As long as there is “licenses”, laws and departments involved, whether regarding alcohol or firearms (or tobacco), and as long as lawyers are treated differently than other vermin, we’ll always have this sort of nonsense going on. It’s not like anyone at Walmart wants to inconvenience a customer; they’re a business after all. The only reason they’re doing this, is because they’re concerned that not doing so, will result in a shakedown by a politico legal establishment whose sole existence revolves around feeding on productive people.

  24. I really don’t think it’s a big deal if I had to show them my permit. No biggie. It’s not good, but no biggie.

    I would, however, ask them if they are planning to ask any brown skinned shoppers if they have thier citizenship card before they shop. If asking for my permit is a good thing surely the other must be.

    • ” No, but I’m afraid I’ll have to ask you to leave if I can’t see it”. That’s how it would go down. Until they get educated on the actual requirements of the law.

  25. No open carry in Illinois-I don’t recall any open-carry BS in the Indiana Wallyworld. And yeah they have booze(and ammo and guns out of Lake County). Proceed at your own risk Texans. I would fook with them(lol)…but I’m not a lawyer or pretend I am online.

    • Admitting you have a problem is the first step in recovery. Let the healing (and open carry) begin!

  26. There is an easy and legal way out here. Simply inform said ” highest-ranking employee” that only a sworn Texas LEO is legally allowed to ask for ID to determine that, that they CANNOT be said to be “knowingly” allowing a shopper to carry if they DON’T KNOW, and that if they are still feeling unsure, then they should call the police and have them determine your official legal status, since it is their job to do that, and not Walmart’s.
    You can then inform him that you can continue about your business, or if he likes you would be glad to take your business(and your money) elsewhere.
    You then might also ask him if he really thinks you would continue through the store, waiting for the police, if you were a law breaker.

    • Whether you’re buying alcohol or not is not the determining issue. The determining issue is the fact that the location sells alcohol and can’t allow unlicensed firearms in that location, whether the carrier is buying or not.

      • Not quite. They can’t knowingly allow weapons to be carried. If they don’t know whether you have a license, then they don’t know whether you’re carrying illegally.

        To argue the contrary, that an openly carried firearm could be illegally carried for the customer not having a license, is the same as arguing that a customer with no visible firearm could be carrying concealed illegally, too, for not having a license.

        Walmart isn’t demanding to pat down all customers on the chance they might be illegally carrying concealed without a license. So there’s no consistency or justification in demanding to see open carriers’ licenses to substantiate they aren’t carrying illegally.

        • Yes, you are correct–once again, after saying the same thing a couple of times I got a bit lazy with my language–the main point being it was the fact that the location had booze on sale that made the difference, not the customer’s intentions on buying the booze or not.

        • No problem, AR. I’ve been there, too. I should have read the entirety of the posts first, particularly yours, instead of responding to just one in isolation. That’s my fault.

  27. Sounds like a good excuse to hand them a card telling them its your last time shopping there.. Harassment is not a good way to keep costumers.

  28. Ok this is what people should do. When asked to show your papers you politely decline to do so then carry on with your own business. They will call the police on you, let them when the cops show up you show them your papers. Eventually the local police will demand that Walmart stop it will find its way into the state government and it will stop

    • No, my friend, the store management will ask you to leave. And when you don’t they will call the cops on you. Then you will either leave like you should have in the first place if you didn’t want to show your license, or you will be arrested for trespass. And then the papers and broadcasts will have another field day with “belligerent handgun carriers”. And the cops will not be asking Wal-Mart to stop anything. There is some incredibly bad advice being bandied about here.

      • “some incredibly bad advice being bandied about here.”
        Well, it is the internet, after all. Have you ever been to a site without the ignorant and the trollish?

        • Well, that is strange; I wrote that comment, then decided it really wasn’t too helpful and deleted it well within the “edit” window–and here it is again!

        • Yes, that is my experience also. Usually, the edit won’t even load, when it does it often won’t work, and sometimes it just posts my stuff in the middle of typing, and it goes up in the middle of a word. So far, every time it has done that, the edit button has yet to be there. The comment section here sure is weird, even stranger than on youtube.

    • The flaw in your plan is that in between you declining to show them your license and Walmart calling the police, either the greeter or the manager will approach you and ask you to show your license or leave.

      That intervening act having taken place, when the police do arrive, you’ll be ticketed, at least. That encounter with the police could degenerate into something much worse, too. Walmart could ban you from their stores, too. (It happens with shoplifters. Believe it.)

      I’m not saying don’t challenge them. I’m just saying be aware of the consequences and within what limits you can legally avoid them.

      • The flaw in your plan is that in between you declining to show them your license and Walmart calling the police, either the greeter or the manager will approach you and ask you to show your license or leave.

        Your assumption is not necessarily valid. At the initial interaction, the greeter has merely asked for papers. If the patron declines, and continues on with his business, his interaction with the greeter is complete. The greeter has not asked for the patron to leave. Thus, the patron is not trespassing.

        Unless and until the manager decides to accost the patron and issue the ultimatum to show papers or leave, trespassing is a non-issue.

        If the manager hasn’t yet approached the patron or asked him to leave, would the police even respond to a call?

        That intervening act having taken place, when the police do arrive, you’ll be ticketed, at least.

        Don’t such misdemeanors have to take place in the presence of the officer? If so, will not the officer ask the manager to ask the patron to leave, in order to witness the patron’s acquiescence or refusal?

        I’m not saying don’t challenge them. I’m just saying be aware of the consequences and within what limits you can legally avoid them.

        Absolutely. Don’t be rude, or belligerent – either with WalMart employees/managers, or with a responding police officer. And understand the line between refusing to abide by a store policy, and breaking the law.

        • Again, Chip, you are correct about a misdemeanor having to take place in the officer’s presence before a warrantless, on-the-spot arrest can be made. but as a practical matter, that’s easily arranged: Cop to manager: Do you want him to leave? Manager: Yes. Cop to customer: Are you going to leave? Customer” No. Cop: Come with me. Exactly like you said, at that.

        • There’s nothing invalid about that assumption whatsoever. That’s just you being desperate, as usual, to have something contrary to post.

          First, it’s not an assumption on my part. It’s corporate policy on Walmart’s part. Now, if you choose to argue that Walmart will not adhere to its own public policy, that’s uninformed speculation on your part. I expect they’ll do what they say and follow through on their open carry ban, and you have no evidence to suggest they won’t.

          Second, not only not being an assumption on my part, it’s not even just Walmart’s policy for you to speculate about. It’s Walmart’s history for you to go look up. Walmart has what’s known in retail as a “prosecute everything” policy. It’s exactly what it sounds like. For example, they will prosecute shoplifters of candy and then formally ban them from every one of their stores, under penalty of criminal trespass, which they will also prosecute (sound familiar?) Local D.A. offices will take those cases because they have an entire division which handle’s misdemeanors, so it’s not a frivolous case for them. It’s business as usual. If candy is child’s play, but taken this seriously, you’ll want to reconsider how casually you think Walmart will regard defying their open carry ban.

          Also, the system assesses court costs even if a petty shoplifter gets some diversion sentence or deferred adjudication. It’s a profit deal for the system and they’re eager to take Walmart’s petty cases. While you think about that, think about this: Walmart will sue you in civil court for your offenses at their stores. Believe it, watch it happen. Every state has laws that allow retailers to pursue civil damages. In New York, for example, retailers can seek to recover five times the cost of the stolen merchandise, up to $500 per item, plus as much as $1,500 if the merchandise isn’t in a condition to be sold.

          Walmart has an army of in-house and outside lawyers who handle these matters…every…single…day. Don’t think for a second that you’re going to be the special little snowflake who’s granted an exception. More importantly, don’t think that Chip’s argument in quixotic attempt to one-up me will carry any weight when you’re getting handcuffed at Walmart. Invalid assumption? lol Tell it to the Judge.

        • There’s nothing invalid about that assumption whatsoever. That’s just you being desperate, as usual, to have something contrary to post.

          No, it’s an assumption. I’ll be happy to explain.

          First, it’s not an assumption on my part. It’s corporate policy on Walmart’s part.

          Here’s why it’s an assumption: because how often is the store manager standing next to the door greeter?

          What will happen if someone chooses to ignore the door greeter’s demand to see papers, and continue into the store? Several things could happen:

          1. The door greeter attempts to restrain the person.
          2. The door greeter ignores the person, and carries on greeting.
          3. The door greeter lets the person go, and then goes to find the store manger.
          4. The manager is within eye/ear shot, and intervenes directly.

          How that plays out will depend on the store, the greeter, and the manager.

          Now, if you choose to argue that Walmart will not adhere to its own public policy, that’s uninformed speculation on your part. I expect they’ll do what they say and follow through on their open carry ban, and you have no evidence to suggest they won’t.

          No evidence? What about every other alcohol-selling WalMart in every other jurisdiction that has some form of lawful open carry?

          Now, if you choose to argue that Walmart will not adhere to its own public policy, that’s uninformed speculation on your part. I expect they’ll do what they say and follow through on their open carry ban, and you have no evidence to suggest they won’t.

          (snip)

          …you’ll want to reconsider how casually you think Walmart will regard defying their open carry ban

          What WalMart open carry ban?

          Don’t think for a second that you’re going to be the special little snowflake who’s granted an exception. More importantly, don’t think that Chip’s argument in quixotic attempt to one-up me will carry any weight when you’re getting handcuffed at Walmart.

          Except that, nowhere did I ever advocate for violating the law. (Ignoring a WalMart door greeter while otherwise acting lawfully is not a violation of law.)

          Hmm: that must have been another assumption on your part.

        • Those who carry their brains in their posterior regions sure make a LOT of unfounded assumptions don’t they?
          But the bright side is, they can only make an ass of u and me, IF we’re stupid enough to listen to the foolishness they spout. If we don’t, then it only makes the ass of them.
          There’s such balance in nature. 🙂

  29. Funny how they want to card open-carriers while selling alcohol on one end of the store and guns on the other. Whatever the law is regarding sale of liquor, I can’t really see how this decision is germane to it given that the place sells but does not serve alcohol.

  30. It’s just Walmart throwing its corpulent corporate weight around. Wasn’t there some kind of anti-firearm B.S. on their part in New York last year? Rings a bell somewhere.

    Whether it’s hostility toward firearms owners in particular, or alienation of their customers in general, I don’t know. What I do know is that Walmart’s stock has been basically stuck in neutral for five years now. A few ups and downs along the way, to be sure, but after a five year ride your investment’s sitting about where it started. Perhaps a little more, accounting for dividends, or perhaps a little less, accounting for erosion of purchasing power from inflation.

    What that means is that the company isn’t doing its job of generating a satisfactory return on investment, and professional investors the world over agree that the outlook isn’t expected to change any time soon. Rough economy? OK. Very competitive market segment? No doubt. The proof is that other Walmart competitors are struggling, too. However, some major Walmart competitors are doing just fine; very well, in some cases. Target’s stock is up 30% over the last five years. Kroger’s stock is up about 30% *each* of the last five years.

    By the way, Kroger just recently announced that they’ll allow licensed open carry in their Texas stores. Curious, that. Perhaps Walmart should focus a little more on pleasing its customers, and a lot less on appeasing the mainstream media?

    • Kroger started in my hometown of Cincinnati. The company is very pro-gun. In Kroger stores far from my usual AO, I’ve had department managers come up to me and thank me for open carrying in the store. Each time it actually surprised me.

      The last I heard, Kroger’s board was physically dodging the Moms of Doom and refused to accept their petition. Kroger’s response was that they trust their customers. Kroger also went out of their way about 6 months later to make a similar statement even though the heat was no longer on them.

  31. I am sort of divided on the open carry issue. I think there are some people that should not be carrying firearms like I think there are some women that should not be walking around topless. Have not seen an open carry firearm here yet, (small town Tx), would not care if I did, have seen the signs that allow concealed, but not open. Either way, I have seen guns and tits before.

    • I actually saw an open carrier couple days ago. In the Wal-Mart parking lot, coming out of the store with some merchandise. Didn’t seem to be at all distressed, nothing much happened with him, apparently.

  32. That does it, from here on out, whenever I go to Walmart, I’ll open carry and buy beer and ammo on the same purchase.

    • 🙂

      Buy tobacco products to round it out. I don’t know about other states, but in Ohio you could purchase sinus medication with pseudoephedrine and really mess with their minds. We have to ID and go on a state registry to buy over the counter sinus medication here. I have had pharmacists refuse to sell me my sinus medication because of my tattoos. They have not once noticed the gun on my side!

    • Rock it out! I’ve always agree with the sentiment that Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms should be a convenience store, not a federal agency.

  33. Some of y’all need to take a chill pill, like the folks at Open Carry Texas have. This isn’t Walmart being pricks or anti-gun or any such thing. It’s just them being careful until they get further guidance from TABC because they don’t want to lose millions of dollars in revenues. TABC is still TEXAS Alcoholic Beverage Commission; just a matter of time before we get the reassurance we (and Walmart) want.

    Relax 🙂

    • No further guidance is needed, as the text of the regulation is plain. The proof? Numerous other retailers in Walmart’s shoe have taken the exact opposite approach. Are they unaware of the regulation? Are they reckless with their business? Neither. They’re just not so full of themselves and as heavily influenced by mainstream media whining and Astroturf activists pearl clutching as Walmart is.

  34. > she did so with her Bersa Thunder .380 pistol

    That’s a mighty fine budget gun. Hell, Nutnfancy even labled it the best .380 pistol you could buy (before the Glock 43..42? whichever the .380 model is) came out – I’m guessing he’d update it to best on a budget and recommend the Glock if you can afford to pay twice as much. I bought one for my last girlfriend as a Christmas present since she wanted a carry gun but didn’t have one – I was sorely tempted to keep it for myself due to the feel of the gun and especially the trigger.

    • That’s what the crafty anti-gunner wants every nongovernment armed person to do. It plays right into their hands. By keeping guns hidden, there is very little every day, common sense evidence for the run-of-the-mill sheep that counters anti-gun propaganda. The antis never even get to the point of having their little “conversation” when the average person can see, day to day in their own lives, that gun control is nonsense. Open carry is the destroyer of anti-gun lies. But, by all means, do what is convenient for you and remain concealed. Don’t offer the most effective resistance to attempts at destroying the exercise of the individual right to keep and bear arms. If you weren’t inconvenienced or made to feel uncomfortable, then it was all worth it.

  35. I am a strong proponent of the Second Amendment, and quite aware of Walmart’s many shortcomings, but how about “Their business, their rules”? Fabricating faux drama where there really isn’t any doesn’t win us support.

    • If the truth is rationally and patiently pointed out to Walmart in Texas, I am pretty sure that this policy will be quickly corrected. Walmart has given us no trouble about open carry in other states. Walmart corporate policy is to follow state law. Once state law is properly explained to them, it will become a non-issue. The only wrong course of action would be to ignore it. That won’t help anyone except the anti-gunners in their quest to get gun owners to hide their firearms so that the anti-gun propaganda isn’t obliterated by pervasive open carry.

      Any faux drama was most likely created by Bloomberg minions. Since you are a self-described “strong proponent of the Second Amendment,” I hope you will realize that everyday open carry is one of the most effective counters to anti-gun propaganda. Without it, we would be at the mercy of the progressive “conversation.” With the liberal media and liberal indoctrination of students, open carry is a critical tool in the fight for the exercise of the individual right to keep and bear arms. The public has an opportunity to see everyday people going about their lives armed. What is experienced day-to-day, in areas where open carry occurs, demonstrates to the public that anti-gun propaganda is a laughable barrel of lies.

  36. What the public needs to understand is that each and every Handgun License holder has been thoroughly background checked prior to receiving their license. I mean thorough. You cannot even have delinquent child support or property taxes, much less any violent acts on record. The police know in the event of subsequent problems that you hold a handgun license and are required to notify the DPS to require forfeiture of the license. This is why Handgun Licensees are not required to submit to background checks when purchasing firearms. They have been proven to be law abiding citizens far in excess of the routine background checks.

  37. Open carry is perfect if you want to be a primary target for the bad guys. Also perfect if you want to be mistaken as a bad guy by the good guys. And also perfect if you want to give up the tactical advantages of concealment and surprise. In other words, open carry is perfect if you want to attract trouble and then limit your ability to defend yourself against the trouble you go out of your way to attract.

    • Open carry is the perfect weapon against anti-gun propaganda. They want you to cover your gun because then they alone shape the narrative. Where guns are regularly open carried by everyday people in everyday life, the lies of the anti-gunners are debunked. You are even parroting some of the things I’ve heard many anti-gunners spout. My friend, they want everybody to hide their guns. They want to hide the truth.

      • If you want to martyr yourself to a “cause”, that’s your choice. My choice is to simply avoid trouble and to defend myself if it’s unavoidably necessary.

        • But the claims you made have not been proven to be true. And, when you choose the tactical advantages of concealed carry, you give up the tactical advantages of open carry. Both modes have their advantages and disadvantages. For one, you can appear as a softer target when you conceal carry. Open carry does have the benefits of deterrence and faster draw. I carry both openly and concealed. I support the individual’s right to choose their mode of carry. I would prefer, that you made your choices based upon fact rather than speculation. But, I also support the individual’s right to choose ignorance and fear.

        • In other words, you believe that any choice other than your choice is wrong, and you resort to insulting those who make choices other than the choices that meet your approval. Perhaps a bit of tolerance and humility might better advance your choices.

        • Fred, if I was going to insult you, you would have known it. You’re reaching but coming up empty.

    • But even if that is all so, it would appear that there are some who are willing to risk all those potential consequences in order to educate their fellow man. IOW, people who really care about others. Dare I say: Heros?

  38. §46.035, Texas Penal Code prohibits carrying of handguns and other weapons:
    On the premises of a business that derives 51% or more of its income from the sale or service of alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption; such premises are required to post notices under Texas GC §411.204.
    ~~(http://dps.texas.gov/RSD/CHL/faqs/)

    I have yet to see a Walmart allowing on-premises consumption. Can you cite a specific section in the PC relating to the assertions in the article about off-premises consumption?

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