Waco Eyewitness: Cops Let Wounded Bikers Die

(courtesy gq.com)

IN a GQ article entitled The Untold Story of the Texas Biker Gang Shoot-Out, Cossacks Motorcycle Club, McLennan County chapter president John Wilson tells the writer that the Waco police left bikers wounded by gunfire to die. “Not a single law-enforcement person lifted a finger to help any of the wounded. And they made it pretty clear that they were going to be violent if we tried to take our guys to the ambulance. Three men were bleeding out before our eyes . . .

If those men were still alive 30, 40 minutes after being shot, they could have been saved. A prospect named Trainer from out of Tarrant County chapter was shot. They zip-tied him and laid him on the ground next to a Bandido they had handcuffed. I noticed him jerk a few times, laying there. We were sitting there, 30 feet from him, and weren’t able to help him. About two hours later, somebody walked over, looked at him, and covered him with a yellow sheet.

The article makes it clear – if there’s anyone who remains doubtful – that the Waco police are busy covering-up their role in a firefight that left nine men dead and 20 wounded and put 177 Americans in jail on $1m bond. And left them there. Wilson reckons, as we’ve been suggesting since the story broke, the Waco SWAT team opened fire on the bikers with AR15s.

“Harried handgun fights are usually a pretty inaccurate situation,” says Cossacks chapter president John Wilson. “Head shots happen by mistake, if at all. Someone got lucky. To have that many guys hit with torso shots and head shots—in my experience, I would say that indicates you had trained people with long rifles and optical sights. That’s accurate, aimed fire.”

The coroner’s initial and “final” report didn’t contain any information on the caliber of the bullets that caused the carnage. That information is a huge red flag. Will the truth ever come out? Watch this space.

comments

  1. avatar Sexual Tyrannosaurus says:

    Not the first time that’s happened

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jose_Guerena_shooting

    “Ambulance crews were then notified they were no longer needed, one hour and fourteen minutes after Guerena’s wife’s call to 911.”

    1. avatar Steve says:

      I’m a Paramedic who’s not only treated my fair share of people shot, but also have done training for active shooter scenarios:

      Common practice, internationally, is to not let EMS crews in on scene until it’s secure. 180+ people running around is NOT secure. Now, for active shooter scenarios, the plan now is to have small teams comprised of some Paramedics, firefighters, and 2+ officers, move in the “warm zone”, do initial treatment and extraction, and move on. A large parkinglot with hundreds of people where shooting was just done is NOT a “warm” zone, it is very much still hot, and it can take hours to clear a hot zone.

      So do I blame them for not getting EMS crews in with 180 potential suspects? Hell no. If it had been a single shooter in the same situation I’d say otherwise, but it wasn’t. EMS stages until cleared in.

      1. avatar Sexual Tyrannosaurus says:

        The only active shooters in Waco were the SWAT pigsters.

        1. avatar William Burke says:

          EXACTLY! They planned the operation, shot the bikers, and then withheld medical aid so as many as possible would die!

        2. avatar Jeremy B. says:

          Please tell us all about your eye witness account, including the black helicopters and alien abductions.

          Is the Police Department guilty of wrong doing? Most likely. But lets try not to go full crazy today, thanks.

        3. avatar Sexual Tyrannosaurus says:

          7 of the 9 victims had center mass and heat shots. That means 7 of the 9 victims were likely hit with aimed rifle fire. The only rifles at the scene were in the hands of the cops.

          No black helicopters, just a bunch of murderers clad in black police gear.

      2. avatar Barbara says:

        Steve, all the shooting took 3-4 min. The rest of the time Waco PD was visiting with one another bragging about what part they had in it all, so there was around 40 min, that these men could have been helped and would still be alive today. It was bikers who was trying to save their lives, by doing CPR, trying to stop the bleeding UNTIL they were told they would be shot if they did not step away. There is no doubt what so ever that the Waco PD did not want to save their lives. One man was laid down beside a biker who had his hands tied behind his back, just to see the man die. The men who bled out, had their hands tied behind their backs. If they had time to do that and move the bodies around, they sure as hell could have gotten those men help. We all know that these men were murdered, no question about it what so ever. Look into it. You will see for yourself.

      3. avatar Paula says:

        Steve as the shooting was all of 4 to 5 minutes, as what he said was they was still there alive 30 to 40 minutes AFTER THE SHOOTING, the hospital was across the street. The Paramedics was staged just behind in the shopping center parking lot and no aid was rendered. Leaving 3 men to bleed to death. No one shot at the PD except for their own fellow officer’s.

  2. avatar Grindstone says:

    Like I said in another post, we “know” more about the Oregon shooting than we do about the police shooting Waco bikers.

  3. avatar the ruester says:

    Has there ever been a crips vs bloods brawl where 100 people got shot? This is incredible.

    1. avatar Ted Unlis says:

      Where did 100 people get shot at?

    2. avatar Chris T from KY says:

      This happens over hundreds of times in small shootouts you never here about between two black criminal shooters. The half white president Obama does not care about black on black crime for example. And neither do many police as well as many civilians.

      The courts have said the police do not have to come and help you. That includes not calling an ambulance when they don’t want to.
      Where does it say anyone is required to render aid to the person you shot? I think white criminals are being treated just like black criminals after a shootout. That said medical examiners office is hiding something.

  4. avatar some dude says:

    Funny that right wingers were so fast to help out the bigot cliven bundy but they’re not surrounding Waco with a human wall at this very moment. I see, when you can get on TV for being a douche you have a sense of duty. When you will probabaly get killed by crooked Waco cops though your sense of duty like your courage takes a vacation.

    1. avatar Dale Smith says:

      I was at the Bundy ranch as well as the last rally they had in Waco FLAME DELETED. A group of us wanted to open carry at the Waco rally. Guess who said no, we don’t want to be that forceful. The organizers. FLAME DELETED

      1. avatar Chris T from KY says:

        Thank you for at least trying.

    2. avatar Researcher says:

      My sense is that there are liberals and conservatives on TTAG and there have been some really great comment threads that have expanded my understanding of the topics.

      I have come to associate lying and manipulation when I hear the label “Progressive” from the actions of many that call themselves “Progressives” So I suppose I feel your angst at “Right Winger” as you seem to associate bad things with it.

      1. avatar george from fort worth says:

        i am an avowed and proud right-winger. in fact, the only possible reason to tolerate a left wing is because you can’t make a conventional airplane fly without one.

    3. avatar Steve says:

      Go steal some other peoples money under the guise of “fair taxes”, you imbecile, and leave the discussions to the educated.

    4. avatar William Burke says:

      Clive Bundy is old-fashioned, not a bigot. His chief of security – black man – stayed at his ranch. He didn’t even have to camp back by the toilets!!!

  5. avatar Ralph says:

    The truth is that the only difference between a motorcycle gang thug and a Waco SWAT thug is the uniform.

    1. avatar Cliff H says:

      I was trying hard to work out a way to describe my contempt for both sides in this issue and you stated perfectly. Bravo.

      The only addition I can make is that the police are bigger, better armed, and able to cover up their crimes.

    2. avatar actionphysicalman says:

      Not true, the SWAT thug has qualified immunity from prosecution for their crimes and the biker thug does not.

      1. avatar William Burke says:

        Yep.

        1. avatar george from fort worth says:

          “thug”? “thug” ??

          do you absolutely know the racial make-up of the SWAT team?

        2. avatar Geoff PR says:

          “do you absolutely know the racial make-up of the SWAT team?”

          What are you talking about?

          ‘Thug’ is a *behavior*, not a color.

        3. avatar george from fort worth says:

          not according to what i hear and see on television; “thug” is a racist term because when it is used it only describes black males.

          they couldn’t put something on television if it wasn’t true.

    3. avatar Sexual Tyrannosaurus says:

      The SWAT thug uses taxpayer funded equipment to commit his crimes, the motorcycle enthusiast rarely commits crimes and uses his own funds when he does.

      1. avatar barnbwt says:

        …except for the drugs, extortion, racketeering and white slavery. I know bikers ain’t bikers, all, and everything, and I doubt the actual scary kind were probably not showing their faces in such numbers in they daylight at that place (making the staged slaughter even more repugnant), but let’s not pretend that organized crime is noble or justified just because it’s perpetrated by grown white guys (with day jobs). Not a whole lot different than gang bangers & their sycophant posers; bikers just have enough gas money to get further than four blocks from home to raise trouble or play dress up.

        1. avatar Sexual Tyrannosaurus says:

          >but let’s not pretend that organized crime is noble or justified just because it’s perpetrated by grown white guys (with day jobs)

          Organized crime is especially ignoble when perpetrated under the color of government authority by taxpayer funded psychopaths, who then tell their victims that they were assaulted/robbed/murdered for their own good.

        2. avatar Phil says:

          Here we agree ST.

    4. avatar Spaceman Brown says:

      Most of the citizens murdered and kidnapped by the Waco PD were Motorcycle Club Members, not gang thugs. Presumption of innocence still applies to people you don’t like. You don’t get to write them all off as gang thugs until you have proof beyond reasonable doubt that they are actually criminals.

      1. avatar Sam I Am says:

        Seems some background on the bikers turned-up very few people with records…a review done after the officials declared all the bikers were convicted felons.

      2. avatar Ralph says:

        Brown Space Cadet, read my comment again. I said nothing about the innocent motorcycle club members who were at this meeting. I addressed only the gang thugs. If you’re going to go all trigger warning and microaggression with your phony offense, you might want to focus it a little bit better.

      3. avatar barnbwt says:

        I was under the impression a lot of these formal “MC’s” are paying protection or tribute cash to actual scary bosses to operate in their turf. Obviously not worth getting shot over (which is why they pay it, and why the cops here are monsters, both) but points to this ‘hobby’ of weekend warriors not being without shady consequences.

    5. avatar Desert Ranger Tycho says:

      Not true. The bikers had cooler rides. Honestly, it sickens me the facts are being swept under the rug. Let the truth out and let’s see who the blackhats really were… My thoughts and prayers for all the families involved.

  6. avatar george from fort worth says:

    jes’ thought i’d quote a popular roadside sign: “don’t mess with texas”.

    sign actually has to do with littering, which apparently the waco cops considered the bikers to be.

    1. avatar foggy says:

      FLAME DELETED

      1. avatar george from fort worth says:

        kindy fuddled here. not sure if your note is from a human or computer generated; makes no kinda cents to me. but lots of stuff out there don’t make no kinda sense, anyways. if’n yer a person, thank you for the welcome. if yer a computer, happy bits an’ bites to you.

        if’n yer making a snotty remark of some king, tryin’ to rile me up, well nice try but i’m riled-up all the time so yer comment was wasted (hope you can get back the time it took to post it).

        don’t worry; be happy

  7. avatar jwm says:

    Not an expert. Would an honest autopsy show that a person survived the initial gun shot only to die 30- 40+ minutes later?

    And how would anybody explain to a grand jury how a bound individual that was wounded was denied medical care resulting in death?

    Would not that set of circumstances qualify for some form of murder charge? And in the age of cell phone cameras and ccctv would anybody try to pass that sort of behaviour off as proper?

    1. avatar Hasdrubal says:

      I’m not an expert either, but it seems like a rough estimate ought to be possible, based on the amount of blood lost and the type of wound.

      The explanation will probably be something like- “the scene was not yet safe for medical personnel to enter due to the recent gunfire and the large number of suspects not yet properly secured or searched. Officers were attempting to render the scene safe, but tragically, due in part to being significantly outnumbered and also due to the historically violent nature of outlaw motorcycle gangs, this could not be done in time to save the lives of some of the wounded.”

      I feel slightly dirty for typing that.

      In general, the best thing police can do for injured people is to get medics in as quick as possible. Many, perhaps most, departments do not provide medical training for officers beyond CPR and band-aids, and then tell their people not to apply the band-aids because they might get sued for not doing it right.

      Sadly, this can be easily twisted into delaying medical care by simply declaring that the scene is not yet safe, and that an update will be given to call medics in as soon as practical. I don’t know of any specific times when this has happened, but from the sound of this incident, it could well be the case.

      Some departments do provide better training and equipment- in the response to the Giffords shooting, Pima County deputies arrived with trauma kits and treated 10 of the 19 wounded.

      http://www.jems.com/articles/print/volume-37/issue-5/training/tactical-ems-saved-lives-after-giffords.html

      Hopefully that becomes a standard across the nation.

      1. avatar barnbwt says:

        Just like the North Hollywood shootout guy that was allowed to bleed out (through a shot-up foot) for like 45minutes while officers “secured” the situation (apparently they hadn’t nailed down the number of shooters during the preceding two hours or whatever they were bouncing bullets off the armored bank robbers) and that’s pretty much the reason we still don’t know very much about the two men or their motivations.

        1. avatar Hasdrubal says:

          Every situation is different, and while I don’t like the ‘go home at the end of shift at all costs’ mentality, I have no problem with placing criminal suspects at the bottom of the priority list, after hostages/victims, innocent bystanders, and police.

          If a suspect makes it clear that they are trying to surrender, or it becomes obvious that they are no longer able to fight, then I have no problem getting them medical aid as quickly as possible.

          The thing is, they have to make that choice. If it looks like someone who was recently trying to kill me still wants to kill me, it’s not worth getting killed trying to save them.

        2. avatar William Burke says:

          I was under the impression the “motivation” for that bank robbery was MO’ MONEY.

    2. avatar Grindstone says:

      Yes, mostly by the stages of healing the wound has gone through, including blood clotting. If there is little to no clotting, it was an almost instant kill. If there is more than a little clotting, the victim bled out. There’s also minute affects to other places of the body that shut down as blood is lost that would appear different if the body stopped functioning wholesale right away.

  8. avatar Roy says:

    I have a hard time believing that police only shot 12 rounds. The fight was like 5 minutes long if I recall correctly and I think there were like 30 police officers.

    Once one police officer shoots, the others usually open fire by instinct. For that many police officers to be there and only shoot 12 shots is an absurd claim.

    1. avatar Joseph Quixote says:

      Disagree. it sounds like what ended the fight was the accurate head shots from rifles. The other police were probably carrying shotguns and pistols and at a distance. 2-3 guys with rifles could easily do the damage that we see here. I just hope that the truth actually comes out on this. It sure looks suspicious.

    2. avatar imstilltheone@lycos.com says:

      maybe the planning for the event was that the line cops were told to only corral the bikers, and that all shooting would be done by snipers. thus a very few rounds would be expended, with very low risk of wild shots. snipers would also explain why we can’t learn of any bikers who actually pulled a gun and started shooting.

  9. avatar SD3 says:

    Someday, one (or more) of those police officers is going to tell the whole story, and it’s not going to be pretty. It might be too late for the blood-sucking lawyers to get their ‘cut’, but the truth *will* come out.

    1. avatar Ralph says:

      Some of the truth is already out; all of the truth will never be out.

    2. avatar Mk10108 says:

      I predict when the truth rolls out. Club members will have their revenge.

  10. avatar Fred Frendly says:

    One more senseless tragedy that proves AR15s are too dangerous to be carried by cops.

  11. avatar ANdrew Lias says:

    I actually think that this was a hit done by the police. They popped one low level Bandito and then the other group’s leadership gets killed? Screams setup to me.

  12. avatar Earl Keese says:

    Played out like an old episode of “The Shield”. I bet more than 1or 2 of the deceased knew the trigger men.

  13. avatar Indiana Tom says:

    Mister Policeman is your friend from the government who protects and serves and is there to help.

  14. avatar Pantera Vazquez says:

    Waco……the true iron blue wall…….

    1. avatar george from fort worth says:

      i wouldn’t be too impressed…once upon a time in texas it was “one riot; one ranger”. how the laws has fallen

  15. avatar Fukem says:

    How many Waco police will get hunted down and shot because of this?

    1. avatar Mark Lloyd says:

      You can bet some are worried about that and it’s a real possibility.

      1. avatar george from fort worth says:

        in waco, the cops know who everyone is. harm a cop and all hell will rain down on you and your family and friends.

        1. avatar Mack Bolan says:

          Pretty sure the clubs have a similar mantra. Turnabout being fair play and all.

        2. avatar george from fort worth says:

          the bikers are mostly out-of-towners.

    2. avatar jwm says:

      None. This ain’t a Hollywood movie. 9 bikers got killed. 1 cop gets killed in payback and all across Texas and many other places bikers will get killed. Many. Then what? They kill another cop and lose many more?

      Cops rarely get killed. And when they get killed by a group that is highly visible things go way bad for that group.

      Remember the mafia type in nyc that killed a federal agent on a stake out? His own “family” killed him and left his body for the feds to find in hopes the feds would let up on them.

      1. avatar Sexual Tyrannosaurus says:

        Government privilege sure is grand.

        1. avatar jerry says:

          This is good, we are making progress. Bonding even. You are starting to remember all those terrible things he did to you. Just remember, baby steps. The road to recovery is a marathon not a sprint.

  16. avatar Ted Unlis says:

    Are all the deluded cop haters who frequent this forum too slow to pick up on the obvious and see that both of the Twin Peak news “stories” referenced by TTAG originated from radical left journalist and media sources who are 100% anti-gun and normally identify with and support movements like Anonymous and Black Lives Matter?

    The first “unbiased” story TTAG Publisher Robert Farago relied on as a “credible source” for information about the murderous biker melee was an AP Story from Chicago liberal journalist Emily Schmall, who after writing the AP report relying on bogus information from the defense, was finally given access by defense attorneys to investigation case reports, statements, photos, and video the defense had long been in possession of after obtaining through discovery; that’s why Schmall has since walked back the initial version of events she was gullible enough to believe as told to her by defense attorneys representing outlaw biker defendants.

    Now this second “unbiased” story from an anti-gun source like GQ written by New York anti-gun progressive liberal activist and journalist Nathaniel Penn who again repeats earlier biker defense propaganda while primarily relying on a self serving version of events as told by Cossack defendants with a few more self serving comments from Bandido defendants, and a select few out of context quotes, comments, and references from law enforcement.

    There’s a reason that only obscure liberal journalists from anti-gun liberal strongholds like Chicago and New York are the sources of these sensational anti-law enforcement and anti-Texas “stories” and conspiracy theories. No credible Texas journalist, not even one of the many liberal journalist actually employed by liberal Texas news outlets like the Austin American Statesman, Texas Tribune, or Dallas Morning News have reported any of the ridiculous conspiracy theory bull$#it as fact because they’ve likely already determined through multiple sources that that the McClennan County DA has compelling evidence that the body count was the result of a murderous biker on biker rampage and not an ambush or summary executions by law enforcement.

    1. avatar Mark Lloyd says:

      Just because a comment may be viewed as self-serving, doesn’t mean it’s not necessarily the truth.
      Cops are well known to take statements from witness’ whose version is not conducive to the police version and dismiss is as anti-police biased. Those statements are never seen in official police reports.
      Communities that have dealt with police cover-ups and corruption will view your comment with the same disdain, total bull shit.

      I can tell you first hand what a bunch of lying crooks cops can be. So try harder next time. You might find a group of people who actually buy into it.

    2. avatar Grindstone says:

      Ted’s still up to his statist government worship.

    3. avatar 2Asux says:

      Nice reasoning, but the phrase, “You will know them by their deeds” trumps.

      Cops (of all types) have the reputation they have earned. If a bunch of us in the general population commit crimes, that is just a statistic of little importance, and likely not representing a trend. But when so many members of a limited population appear repeatedly harming the populace, that is quite something else. The phrase, “Yes, there are some bad cops, but….” is shopworn and valueless. All the good cops support or ignore the bad cops; makes them accomplices. We need cops when we need cops. We need them to do their job properly and professionally. But overall, there is no commandment to honor these guys just because they have a badge. Depend on cops, but don’t trust them (“Trust, but verify” ??). Once upon a time in the West, people sometimes had to rely on bad guys to police other bad guys because proper citizens would not take the job of Sheriff/Marshal. Not much has changed.

  17. avatar Gunr says:

    I looked at the photos of every on of these dudes, and if I had a daughter of dating age, there’s not one of them I’d let on my property to pick her up.

    P.S. Even if they swore that they were just trying to turn their life around.

    1. avatar Sexual Tyrannosaurus says:

      But would you let a cop in?

      Even after all this?

      1. avatar Gunr says:

        would I have a choice?

        1. avatar Sexual Tyrannosaurus says:

          Probably not.

          Maybe it’s time for the NRA gun rags to show ads depicting a homeowner defending himself and his family against a horde of SWAT gangsters. That would be far more realistic.

  18. avatar Bud Harton says:

    I don’t owe Robert Farago or anybody else at TTAG any allegiance and I am a retired cop. I live far away so I don’t know anyone who was involved.

    What is absolutely true is that the incident occurred on May 17 of this year and that was four months and sixteen days ago and yet, there are still no answers concerning some very serious and pertinent questions;
    1. How many of the biker firearms at the scene were found to have been fired?
    2. How many of the bikers had been wounded/killed by a caliber other than the calibers fired by the police such as .40 and 5.56? Were any wounded by any other caliber?
    3. How many of the bikers were killed/wounded by the same calibers utilized by the police?
    4. How many expended rounds were recovered away from the scene, where were they found relative to scene and what were their calibers?.

    The fact that this information is known, both to the coroner and the investigators but is being concealed from the public makes everything to do with this situation suspicious.

    Highly suspicious.

    I believe TTAG and any others of the media that are questioning this are right because right now, viewing all this from a distance, I am guessing that a cop on one side intentionally or accidentally, discharged his weapon and then every cop standing there with a weapon opened fire.

    1. avatar Ted Unlis says:

      And you’re guessing wrong Bud.

      1. avatar SD3 says:

        And you’d base that upon what, exactly? The flood of relevant facts released by the attorney general? Concurrent investigation by the FBI?

        I’m generally a big fan of the thin blue line, but there’s something very serious being deliberately hidden in Waco.

        1. avatar Ted Unlis says:

          SD3, apparently you’re not familiar with the Criminal Justice System in Texas, the Texas Attorney General has no original jurisdiction in criminal cases, local DA’s have jurisdiction, so you simply don’t know what you’re talking about by suggesting the AG has the authority to release anything.

          As far as release of everything including in the case file including police reports, witness statements, photos, absolutely everything imaginable even vaguely associated with the investigation or contained in the case file has already been released through the discovery process to the defense attorneys representing the defendants and they had the discovery info well before the liberal journalist from Chicago and New York ran with their stories.

          No prosecutor or law enforcement agency in Texas ever releases anything in the case file after suspects are arrested and become defendants. There will be more detail released in the indictments themselves when/if they are handed down. The only time you will see a Texas LE agency or for that matter any responsible LE agency in any State release video evidence before trial is if there is compelling need such as when an unidentified murder suspect is caught on surveillance video which is released to the media because there is a compelling need for the public’s assistance in identifying the suspect.

          The reason the Judge issued a gag order that will withstand appellate review is because this is one of the largest crime scene and murder investigations in Texas History with a large number of defendants represented by a large number of attorneys who desperately want to release everything possible to try the case in the court of public opinion rather than in a court of law, which would be greatly beneficial for the defense in seeking a change of venue to move the trial out of McLennan County.

          Don’t be misled SD3, believe what you want, but time will tell if in fact, as previously disclosed by the McLennan County DA in every single one of the several examining trials already held, all of which the defendants have lost, that the prosecution has video evidence of bikers executing bikers.

          You ask about an FBI investigation? Do you actually believe that if there were even a “smidgen” of evidence that any Federal law was violated by a law enforcement agency in a conservative Republican town in a conservative Republican County in the conservative Republican State of Texas, that the Obama Justice Department wouldn’t be all over Waco PD like flies on $#it, come on man, use some common sense.

          Like I said before, there’s a reason the defense had to rely on liberal journalist from Chicago and New York to run with the ridiculous police corruption conspiracy theory bull$#it self serving version of events as told by the biker thug defendants and their attorneys.

        2. avatar 16V says:

          Oh please Ted. Does that boot you’re licking really taste good, or are you just that deliberately ill-informed? (Or perhaps, you’re wearing the boots? Enquiring minds and all that….)

          The only time DAs, PAs, and PDs follow any rules about ‘confidentiality’ or ‘gag orders’ is when it suits their agenda. If it suits the agency/case and the story they want to sell to the public, there will be something from a leak, to a full-scale presser to convey that story. There’s always an exigent circumstance that can bypass the “law”. Only if there’s something needing to be hidden is the letter of the law followed. Why isn’t Justice down there? Pretty sure those bikers were mostly white/Latino. They aren’t of interest to the current Administration.

          Were the cops to have some massive evidence cache that would clear them, it would have found it’s way to the local court of public opinion long ago. I know plenty of coppers, I don’t dislike them all, many are even decent guys who try to do the right thing. There’s also a wide world of cover-ups, dirty cops, dirtier squads/depts, the Ramparts, Miami PDs, New Orleans PDs, and the like. If you believe half of what you’re selling, you need to get more familiar with the ingredients in that product.

    2. avatar Adub says:

      The fact that no information has been released is the big stinker. The cops know who fired what, they can do ballistics tests, GSW residue tests, etc. The fact that they are sitting on it makes it more likely than not that they are covering their asses.

      Still, stupid people in stupid places doing stupid things. Show up at a biker brawl in Waco…

  19. avatar explainist says:

    ” To have that many guys hit with torso shots and head shots—in my experience, I would say that indicates you had trained people with long rifles and optical sights. That’s accurate, aimed fire.”

    … from somebody in a position where they are not being shot at. all outgoing, no incoming

    1. avatar Ted Unlis says:

      So you’re saying one biker thug drawing and firing at point blank or arms length distance couldn’t possibly hit another biker thug in the head or torso, thanks for that enlightening unbiased opinion there explainist. Your “explanation” makes about as much sense as liberal reporter Emily Schmall’s first sentence in her inital AP story before the editing out an unexplainable and glaring contradiction which read, “When two rival motorcycle gangs clashed outside a Texas restaurant, nine bikers ended up dead, their bodies sprawled on the pavement, surrounded by blood and shell casings”. After it was brought to her attention by defense attorneys that referencing photos of bodies surrounded by blood and shell casings didn’t fit the bogus narrative that the decedents were ambushed by law enforcement with rifles from a distance that would could not possibly have left shell casings anywhere near the bodies, but instead pointed to conclusive ballistic evidence at the crime scene that confirms close range biker on biker mortal combat did in fact occur that fateful Sunday at Twin Peaks. Although Schmall quickly edited the contradictory sentence out of her intial AP story in her first update, it must have made her question why the defense attorneys insisted on the edit, because she later actually pressed to see the massive discovery information the defense had received from the prosecutor long before she wrote the story, and upon seeing the evidence released by the prosecutor to the defense through discovery, she immediately began walking back the story to minimize the egg on her face when some of the evidence becomes known in the coming indictments and most certainly when all the evidence is disclosed to the public after the first of many defendants go to trial.

      1. avatar SD3 says:

        “There will be more detail released in the indictments themselves when/if they are handed down.”

        And when, approximately, will that happen? 2017? Or do we have to wait until the defendants are on social security?

  20. avatar onezero says:

    I am not a cop hater, I have friends who are cops. The part of this incident that bothers me, is the potential for other groups of people peaceably demonstrating (armed POTG, for instance) being fired upon by Liberal led police and the narrative being twisted to their viewpoint.

    1. avatar Ted Unlis says:

      Liberal led police? In Waco Texas? Obviously you’re not familiar with which party dominates Texas politics including McLennan County local politics (hint: the political party McLennan County DA Abel Reyna affiliates with doesn’t start with a D and he won his last election with 83.8% of the vote!). Too funny!

      1. avatar William Burke says:

        I see; you’re one of those types who believes there’s a real difference between Party Heads and Party Tails.

        1. avatar Ted Unlis says:

          Actually, like a majority of Texans, I come from a long line of socially conservative former yellow dog (https://texaspolitics.utexas.edu/archive/html/part/features/0304_01/dogs.html) Texas Democrats who now by default are moderate to conservative Republicans because we refuse to support the radical leftist agenda of the Democratic National Committee and their liberal causes such as anti gun laws, open borders, pro choice, gay marriage, and voter ID just to name a few.

          Most of the folks in McLennan County are conservative Republicans which is exactly why the defense attorneys representing the biker thug defendants are so desperately trying to taint the potential jury pool with misinformation and ridiculous conspiracy theories because they know their clients are screwed when a McLennan County jury hears the damning evidence.

        2. avatar Sexual Tyrannosaurus says:

          >so desperately trying to taint the potential jury pool

          Like when the foreman of the grand jury considering the indictments happens to be a Waco PD detective?

        3. avatar Ted Unlis says:

          Glad you brought that up Tyran. First there are two grand juries convened that will hear evidence on this case, one to determine if the officers involved were justified in the use of deadly force, and another to determine if there is sufficient evidence to return a true bill of indictment on the defendants to proceed with a criminal trial.

          As far as the Waco PD veteran Detective winding up on the Grand Jury, that falls into a “Karma is a Bitch” series of events. You see, the Texas Trial Lawyers Association, one of the few Democrat dominated associations in Texas with the money and power to introduce and influence new State laws lobbied John Whitmire, one of the few remaining Democrat Texas Senators with enough power and influence in the legislature to get things done. Senator Whitmire introduced legislation that ultimately became law which removed all discretion previously exercised by Judges and Prosecutors in the Grand Jury selection process.

          The pool of prospective grand jurors that ultimately resulted in a Waco PD Detective being selected was the first summoned in McLennan County under the brand new State Law that Texas Democrats fought so hard to win passage in the Republican controlled State Legislature.

          The new law mandated random selection of prospective jurors in numerical order from drivers license records of residents for a particular county where the jury will be seated and further mandated that once the required number of jurors is reached after exemptions and disqualifications, those remaining are the grand jury, period, no if’s and’s or but’s, which is exactly as the Democrats intended when they wrote the law making it impossible for a Judge or DA to eliminate or excuse a juror not covered by specific exemptions or disqualifications, and being a police officer is not an exemption or disqualifier to exclude a person from being seated on a grand jury.

          It’s actually a good law because the true randomness eliminates what was commonly referred to as the “pick a pal” system Judges and Prosecutors abused to stack grand juries, but it is funny that the Democrat written and sponsored law turned out to be the reason a Waco PD Detective actually wound up randomly selected and the law had been written in such a way that there was no way to exclude him once other randomly selected potential jurors lower in the numerical number selection were eliminated which essentially locked in the Detective as one of the last 12 standing and the defense attorneys realized wasn’t a damn thing they could do to ask for intervention by the Court since the law removed any and all discretion in the process.

          I realize the new Texas law affecting grand jury selection might be a little too deep for you Tyran, so here’s a link on a news story that hopefully makes it easier for you to grasp. http://www.wacotrib.com/news/courts_and_trials/mclennan-county-ushers-in-new-grand-jury-selection-plan-replacing/article_04d35b3b-432c-5c52-a3fc-1132fd5b2c52.html

        4. avatar Sexual Tyrannosaurus says:

          >it’s actually a good law because the true randomness eliminates what was commonly referred to as the “pick a pal” system Judges and Prosecutors abused to stack grand juries

          And yet somehow the Waco system literally picked a pal.

          Also there’s something called “conflict of interest”, but hey, it’s not like cops and prosecutors are expected to have a shred of decency or morality these days.

        5. avatar Ted Unlis says:

          Well Tyran, I see that you didn’t bother to gather a few facts that come in handy when attempting to not come across as completely oblivious and ignorant of how the former “pick a pal” system actually worked. The grand jury selection process that seated the Waco PD Detective was absolutely random, that’s why the “Karma is a bitch” aspect was so humorous. “Conflict of Interest” was also something the Democrat authors of the new law neglected to include as an exemption or disqualification, maybe they will introduce legislation to exclude law enforcement from grand juries when the Texas Legislature next convenes in 2017. You go ahead and believe whatever it takes to help you cope and make it through the day. Too funny!

        6. avatar Sexual Tyrannosaurus says:

          >neglected to include as an exemption or disqualification

          Thank you for confirming that Texas cops and prosecutors have no morality of their own. God forbid a cop remove himself from a case which involves his cohorts murdering nine people. No, he’ll stick around because “the law” allows him to. This amoral animal is a typical government “employee”.

          I wonder if you’ll change your tune if the system swings to favor say, a man accused of killing a cop. Are you as equally unprincipled as the cops?

        7. avatar Ted Unlis says:

          Well alright then Tyran, glad that your alternative facts are working so well to help you cope and make it through the day in your alternative reality, but they’re absolutely useless here in the real world where the biker thug defendants will one day in the not too distant future face justice in a Texas Court of Law.

        8. avatar 16V says:

          ST, Teddy is fine with the most base of conflicts of interest, as long as it suits his whims. Were this “random” selection have put a bunch of sympathizers in the box, he’d be far more circumspect.

        9. avatar Sexual Tyrannosaurus says:

          >but they’re absolutely useless here in the real world where the biker thug defendants will one day in the not too distant future face justice in a Texas Court of Law

          It’s pretty obvious you have any idea what “justice” means.

        10. avatar Ted Unlis says:

          No doubt that could happen 16V, random means random when it comes to the new Texas law for seating a grand jury, it could swing either way, but luckily the number of LEO’s and upstanding law abiding folks on their side, especially in most parts of Texas, Waco included, vastly outnumber outlaw bikers, wannabe outlaw bikers, and supporters of outlaw bikers. Again, that’s why the attorneys representing the biker thug defendants are so desperate to taint the prospective jury pool and find a way, any way to keep their screwed clients from being tried by a jury of their peers in McLennan County Texas. Because you see when the juries for the criminal trials are seated, the McLennan County DA with have a limited number of strikes he’ll be able to use to hopefully keep thugs off the jury just as the defense will have a limited number of strikes to keep LEO’s along with as many upstanding law abiding citizens as possible off the jury.

  21. avatar James Acerra says:

    Sucks to be them! Rules of the road require that civilians then Law enforcement then others are triaged. Actions that result in loss of life or mayhem have consequences.
    Would the Cossack put a Bandido in the ambulance first before a brother or prospect?
    Or the other way around? Then why do they expect any different from the Police? Yes protect and serve covers all members of the community but you deal with the Good Guys whether LEO or Civi first then perps, just the way it is wanna be’s, hangers on’s Prospects, or 1%’ers are low on the totem pole. Sorry again sucks to be them. When the gangs get together for whatever. peace (yea right) or war or turf or deals they chose that place, time or reason to be around those situations. got no sadness in my heart nor reason to hear what a Gang Pres, El Jefe or some bleeding heart “They were unloved by their daddy” or whatever reason why they are involved with a gang.
    For any of the civilians involved sorry you were put in that position by the Unlawful types. To Law Enforcement more range time means less wasted rounds.
    Keep safe my LEO brothers and remember RICO is your friend.
    Yours in service
    James Acerra

  22. avatar Bob R says:

    We will never know the full truth here because it is obvious the government (don’t forget cops are part of government) has had all this time to destroy and alter evidence.

    They let that guy in Arizona die in his own home while an ambulance was there the whole time. Cops just don’t give a rats ass about anyone else but themselves, and they have no incentive at all to “serve” us.

  23. avatar gsnyder says:

    I used to have a patient who was a Hells Angel. He was a nice guy, at least to me. We talked and I came to recognize not all the “bad” biker gangs are full of bad people. If you challenge them or step on their toes, might be a different story.

    But the point is is this story true? Based on some stories I’ve heard, I’d suggest the bikers are telling the truth and the story here has credence. It was a good old fashioned Bonnie & Clyde ambush, the cops baited them in and started a battle, at which point they had the right to fire themselves once lead stated flying. In these cases it is hard to tell the good from the bad guys, there isn’t much difference if any.

  24. avatar foo dog says:

    This looks like a disaster waiting to happen. Three S rule applied.

    1. avatar 16V says:

      Sh*t, shower, shave?

  25. avatar SD3 says:

    If these biker dudes were black…well, you know *exactly* where this would be on the national radar. And don’t tell there aren’t black biker gangs.

    Barack ‘sh!t-bird’ O’Bama has his priorities, and this clearly isn’t one of them.

    1. avatar Sexual Tyrannosaurus says:

      It’s not black peoples’ fault that white people suck up to cops and ignore police criminality.

  26. avatar Kap says:

    Sadly I’m waiting for the flip side! Revenge and Respect are powerful tools, the Police in Waco just united Bikers in a Vendetta? oh wait they will run to mommy {Federal Baby Incinerators}

  27. avatar anomad101 says:

    And the problem is?

  28. avatar Frank Castle says:

    Never trust cops or federal agents. They are nothing more than government sanctioned murders, and American Gestapo. They are not your friend, they are not your protector, and they will turn on you if they can.

  29. After I am sworn in The coroner will have questions to answer. There is NO time limit for the prosecution of police for murdering people OR letting them bleed out. No double standards put DC politicians on Obamacare and SS.Thanks for your support and vote. Pass the word. mrpresident2016.com

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