HSTHydra-Shok

It appears that the US Army has finally decided to start using hollow point ammunition for the general issues service pistol. When RF called me and told me that, I was highly doubtful. But by all accounts, (and you heard it on TTAG first folks) this is the real deal. As a combat veteran, and as a medic, I couldn’t be happier. The standard 9X19NATO round nosed FMJ is now, and has always been, a grossly inadequate handgun round for combat. In my experience, it pokes fairly small, smooth holes in soft targets, with neat wound channels. I’ve never seen one break up in tissue, and I’ve seen patients shot multiple times with the round, and still be conscious and capable of continuing to fight. That’s the last thing you want out of your enemy in combat . . .

This decision should, although I’m sure it won’t, end the caliber debate for military usage. The standard pressure 9X19 cartridge, when topped with a modern expanding bullet, is ideal for general combat use. With the expansion capabilities of modern bullets, the 9mm round can now equal wound characteristics similar to the .45ACP, but still carry more rounds with less recoil.

I still carry a .45ACP, but that’s because I’m so used to it, and I get to shoot hundreds of rounds a week with it (and it’s crazy cheap to reload). If I didn’t shoot so much, I would almost certainly switch to a 9mm. I’m sure that, as I get older and my arthritis gets worse, I will also switch to the 9mm round for EDC.

Now, as a medic, I have to inject a dose of reality here. An expanding 9mm round is twice as deadly as a solid round, and out of a 4” or 5” handgun, that’s still not particularly deadly. You are still going to need multiple accurate hits on the target to kill or incapacitate them quickly. That’s the reality of handgun terminal ballistics.

But now our troops won’t have to have as many (or as accurate) hits to do the same amount of damage. Considering that most troops get very little training with their sidearm, I argue that the handgun bullet choice is even more important than the rifle bullet choice. And it appears that the Army has made the right one this time.

And as a medic, I have to applaud this decision for purely selfish reasons. You see, medics have to treat all wounded patients, including the enemy. And that can lead to some extremely difficult triage decisions, as well as just a whole lot more work. I hate work. Expanding rounds will mean that more of the enemy will be dead rather than wounded. And the dead are a supply problem, not a medical problem. Not my job, less work for me.

This change will go down in history as one of the smarter decisions the Army has made, right up there with the development and fielding of the M2, the M79, the P38 can opener and, of course, the greatest invention ever made and used by the Army, the poncho liner.

112 Responses to Combat Medic: Army’s Hollow Point Ammo Switch Will (Or Should) End the Caliber Debate

  1. This will just make the debate worse. Now every keyboard operator will be arguing over which hollow point will be adopted, or bashing the one that gets adopted. Of course the one that gets selected will be accused of being in bed with the DoD, which may or may not be the case. Then there will be anecdotes floating around the internet of how so-and-so hollow point didn’t put so-and-so bad guy down and how they should have gone with so-and-so’s brand because it was 15% better in ballistic gel blah blah. The caliber debate won’t end, it will just change into something even more annoying.

      • A 9mm hollow point will kill you but a .45 hollow point will implode the universe. A .40 S&W hollow point will implode the universe, and it will also be ‘snappier.’

        EMBRACE THE SNAP

      • Think I’ll stick with my 9. Funny thing-I don’t require implosion of the universe to get the BG.

        • We don’t talk about what the dreaded .50 caliber will do. Just thinking about it creates minor tears in the universe.

        • FBI ruled out the 10mm because even a soft or hollow point had too much likelihood of a through & through causing collateral casualties, so they had the .40 S&W developed. One major difference of the .40 over a 9mm is psychological. The 9mm goes “bang” and the .40 goes “BOOM”.

        • FBI ruled out 10mm because they found out that many of their agents cannot shoot it properly, because of excessive recoil. It had nothing to do with overpenetration, and indeed, the better trained FBI units – for example, the FBI Hostrage Rescue Team (where you’d expect such concern to be on the top of the list) – still use 10mm for their MP5 (but even they switched to .45 in handguns, also presumably because of recoil).

    • Next step by the military….

      ….pay some company xxx Million dollars for what ShootingTheBull has already done.

    • “This will just make the debate worse. Now every keyboard operator will be arguing over which hollow point will be adopted, or bashing the one that gets adopted.”
      I face palm, because sadly, I am sure you are right.

      • It still won’t end. That’d be like saying well now that we have powerfull V6 eco engines for trucks no one will buy a v8. PSH everyone’s still getting a v8 hemi over the ram v6

        • Man if someone could figure out how to propel a v6 or v8 out the bbl. of a 7.5 pound AR that would end the debate . I used to think that the best ammo was what I call bleeders . Those little 40 grainers that bounce around all over the place , go in an elbow , end up in the ball sack . Not a quick kill but will definitely put you to sleep before help can find all the holes and plug em up . Quietly meet your maker . I really think this is still a fairly decent strategy if your dealing with people who want to live , but martyrs would be better served with a 30.06 . My solution is : 2 FMJ 2 HP 2 GT 2 FMJ 2 HP 2 GT Repeat until full .

    • It’s simple, really. The Federal HST 9mm 124 grain +P is the finest self defense / combat 9mm round in existence. No debate necessary. Some others are good, some great, but HST is the best. And the ballistics are similar to the Winchester NATO 124 grain +P.

      • Cant argue with that, I couldnt help but think of the HST’s awesomeness when I saw the picture above and what looks like a classic Hydra Shok post.

        • No problemo. More 124+P for me. It runs about 1240 FPS from my G19/23 with 4″ stainless LWD conversion barrel and about 1265 out of my Sig 226 Tac Ops with 4.4″ barrel.

        • Time to inject some friendly caliber debate here. 147 grains is to heavy for 9mm round. Its velocity is only marginally higher than a 45 ACP JHP like the Federal Hydrashock. The 9mm round was designed to be a fairly lightweight round. If you want a heavier bullet you are better off with a 40 or 45.

          This does not really end caliber wars. A modern 9mm JHP is as “effective” as 45 ACP ball and that is more than adequate. This 1911 fanboy often carries a 9mm handgum for that reason. However, the same technology thst makex the 9mm round a good round makes a 40 or 45 even better.

          Now that I have moved to Western Wisconsin and I am more concerned about the four legged wildlife, bears have been know to raid garbage cans in my neighborhood, I am back to the full sized 1911 loaded with ball. You aren’t going to stop a black bear with JHP. It is mot going to get through the tough hide, fat and muscle.

    • You know this now means that these will be labeled “assault bullets” or “military style ammunition”.

  2. I can identify with the arthritis thing. I make a real effort to work my hands every day at the gym and at home. I can still shoot heavy calibers(anything above 9mm) but I can tell a real difference after extended sessions. So, I mostly avoid the hard hitters these days.

    • Hey JWM, I’ve got arthritis in both hands, it’s really bad in my thumbs.
      In handgun I shoot .45acp and .50ae., hundreds of rounds a week.
      My doctor has told me not to exercise my hands other than normal use.
      They’re already worn out, concentrated exercise just does more damage.
      Whatever you do, good luck.

  3. JWT, are you comparing a 9mm hollow point to standard .45 ball ammo? What about modern .45 hollow point ammo? Surely they perform better still?

    • All pistol rounds suck. 9mm ball sucks just as bad as .45 ball. I have seen guys take 4 rounds to the chest from a 45, turn around and run. Seen guys take 9mm rounds and keep going. Seen the exact opposite with both calibers. As for which one has better terminal ballistics between 9mm and .45, the FBI is pretty adamant that with modern ammo their is no practical difference between the two.

      • ^^^Pretty much this.

        If you want a round that will take down a person, use a rifle round. Send lots more than one round, just to be sure.

      • 9mm and .45 JHP’s will both kill and stop attackers in a self defense scenario, but for military applications of barrier penetration, ease of use, etc. I think the Army will return to the .45 ACP or choose the .40 S&W.

        • Given that .45 is a slower and fatter round, why would it be better at barrier penetration?

          And how is .45 (much less .40 S&W) easier to use?

  4. Amazing how Hague Convention signatories turn their nose up at hollowpoint ammo while arming their troops with 5.56 and 5.45 ammo that does the same thing by tumbling through tissue.

    When it comes to hypocrisy, look no further than generals and politicians.

    • Exactly. More “feel good” documents from the elites. Isn’t killing the enemy the whole point of shooting them?

  5. Maybe I’m off base here, but don’t the vast vast vast majority of our troops use 5.56nato, and not 9mm?

    And the guys that rely on handguns regularly — correct me if i’m wrong — have .45’s?

    • Jack, the standard issue rifle caliber for US troops is 5.56NATO. The standard pistol caliber is 9X19. I know of no combat units, including Special Operations personnel, that use handguns as their standard weapon instead of a rifle. Although some units, such as the USMC, use the .45ACP round, the vast, vast, vast majority use the 9X19.

      • Even Marsoc isn’t that big a fan of their 1911s. Every time I worked with them they rocked 9mm Glocks. There is a reason Cag dumped the 1911. And the only real use the .45 is still getting used in SOCOM these days is with the MK24 for staying quiet in units that don’t got access to the .300BLK.

      • That’s sort of my point — the 9mm doesn’t get enough use to really matter for the vast majority of situations and those that rely exclusively on handguns are using 45.

        The amount of 9mm that makes a difference is small, and shot placement is more important that the size of the projectile.

        • Who relies only on a pistol and prefers .45. Why if you are limited to a pistol would you choose to carry less ammo that at most gives you maybe a percentage point or two of performance?

        • As for whether there are units that rely primarily on a pistol for their defence, I’d at least consider the SAD SOG paramilitary officers as a relevant group when they’re working in populated/urban areas. Each time one of theirs gets caught/outed abroad, he seems to have a G17, G30, or G21 along. Why? Who knows? Ask them… 9mm is universally available compared to .45ACP, and this no doubt guides choice in many applications. .45ACP suppresses more effectively with better TB. Glock makes them both….

  6. And I am still just over hear saying yay we may be able to get cheap surplus HP 9mm ammo now! Because what doesn’t pass initial inspection makes it to other govt agencies(LEO, etc.) and what they don’t want goes to the civilian market.

  7. Excitedly waiting for overrun hollow points.

    BTW, 9MM kills the body, .45 kills the soul.

  8. JWT: I’m glad to see the M79 on your list. Load the blooper with a round of buck and it’s a bad day for someone.

  9. Sorry but all things being equal a bigger bullet loaded with “modern” HP”s is going to expand more. Muzzle energy counts for something . 40,45,357sig,357 and even 380- are better too. Or did the new super 9mm expanding wonder round alone get better? Some of us can shoot 9 and above equally well(although I’m not the guy I was before my 60’s)…and not even arguing against 9. Most of us will never shoot a BG-let alone in combat…

    • This is what people don’t understand from the modern HP movement. Everything improved, but some improved way more than others. Its why the FBI backs 9mm these days.

      • difference beteeen the two” requires clarifying which FBI you are referring to, the one which after very thorough evaluation said (see, e.g., SA Urey Patrick’s notes) that “had the Director specified .45ACP rather than 10mm as the new FBI standard, we would have been fine with that,” “but the 9mm is at the end of its development road” and “offers neither the greater accuracy of the 10mm nor the greater wound potential offered by modern .45ACP loadings.” If that is the reference FBI, then claiming that they believe the 9mm (modern JHP) offers only “a percent or two less” than the 45ACP (modern JHP) seems unsuported by their research and conclusions.

        If, however, you refer to that more recent FBI which touts the virtues of 9mm such as “available in form factors which fit small hands,” “produces less recoil at maximum loadings, but also less energy, momentum, and smaller permanent wound channel,” “costs less,” and so forth, then sure, that FBI, that political chameleon which for decades claimed “there is no mafia,” now thinks “there is little difference between the best loadings of 9mm and .45ACP.

        • Clipped my own first line of the post: “To say that “the FBI is pretty adamant that with modern ammo their (sic) is no practical ….

        • I agree roping down-now we believe everything the FBI publishes? And I don’t care whatever people carry-I can’t conceal carry my pump shotgun…so it’s 380 and above.

    • Seans, in a reply to someone else upthread, has already pointed out that the FBI tests show no meaningful difference between 9mm HP and .45 HP.

      • Yes and no. There *are* differences between 9, .40, .45, etc. The 9mm +P helps mitigate those differences. Hornady posts some in their literature. Whether those differences are enough to justify the added weight, increased recoil, and additional cost of the .40 and .45 is still reasonably open to debate. Round for round, the .45 +P, in something like the Hornady Critical Duty, is more destruction than the 9mm +P. Pound for pound in carry weight, which can be an important consideration, the 9mm soundly beats the .45.

        See page 25, 26, or 27

        http://www.hornady.com/assets/files/catalog/Hornady-2015-Catalog.pdf

        • Some of the .45 +P rounds have an expanded diameter roughly 1/10″ larger than the 9mm +P rounds. That’s a fair amount more surface area, particularly through a barrier like an automotive glass windshield. Critical Duty could certainly be a military pistol round contender.

        • Avid,

          We have our “choice” of any .40 Smith 180 grain JHP Winchester Ranger RA40T. The new version with the fat hollow point. Velocity from your choice of 4″ stainless barrel is about 990-1015 FPS. The only requirement is that it gets loaded into a 4006 TSW with any color and frame choice you want, as long as its non-coated / non-colored brushed stainless steel. We have a variety of grip choices and colors, as long as its black.

          Government: one size fits all. And if it doesn’t fit you, you’re the wrong size.

        • Ah, yes. “Choice”. Obviously it does not mean what we think it means. . .

  10. A huge part (but by no means all) of the caliber wars has been ignorant dickheads talking about the two rounds’ relative performance as ball ammo as seen by the military reasonably accurately, but then assuming that that has even the slightest relevance to a civilian context where hollowpoints are in use.

    That level of willingness to ignore context…er, I’ll quit mincing words: That level of wilfull stupidity won’t just go away; they’ll continue to make the same so-called argument.

  11. Huh, he says that hollow points are good because there will be more dead, less wounded enemies?

    Kind of forgets that the hollow points will be flying both ways EXACTLY because US broke this international customary law in the first place.

    • First, the US didn’t break the law — actually a protocol subsequently attached to a treaty — because we never agreed to it in the first place. Second, the treaty only applies to engagements between signers. So if we go to war against France, no HPs for us. But against the Taliban, ISIS or AQ, it’s okay to fire away. Get it?

      If you’re gonna troll, please get your facts straight, m’kay?

      • So if we go to war against France, no HPs for us.

        If I understood you correctly, this isn’t true either. We didn’t sign it, so we could use hollowpoints against France. However, France could also use hollowpoints against us, because even if they signed it, we did not.

        I suspect (given the context) that sentence was supposed to start “If we had signed, and then we were to go to war against France…”

        That all aside, I agree it’s just stupid to limit ourselves against adversaries who never even signed the convention, and similarly for the Geneva convention.

    • The treaty in question (which, as others have pointed out, haven’t actually been signed by US anyway) has a lot of other stuff that had been written off as bullshit a long time ago. Just to give an example, one of the five articles is titled “Declaration concerning the Prohibition of the Discharge of Projectiles and Explosives from Balloons or by Other New Analogous Methods”.

  12. So explain to me the poncho liner comment? Is the thing a legitimately useful piece of equipment or is that one of those “look at this completely useless POS that the army makes me carry around” jokes that us civvies don’t get?

    • Troops call the poncho liner the “woobie,” because they love it as much as their old baby blankets. It might be one of the best pieces of kit ever issued.

    • It’s a much overlooked piece of military equipment that pays in spades when you are wet, cold and trying to get some sleep in the field.

  13. Did we drop from among the Hauge Convention signatories? Last I heard was no hollow point ammo except for specific CT missions. Anyone able to educate me?

    • US has never signed it in the first place, just voluntarily unilaterally adhered to its provisions (and even signatories are only required to respect them in a conflict when another signatory is involved). It’s also very outdated, having been adopted in 1899, and prohibits many other things that are basically just ignored, such as aerial bombardment.

      Basically, for everything that actually made sense there (such as prohibition on chemical weaponry), we have since had much better treaties. So HP ban is the only thing that remains of Hague (and Hague alone) that anyone still respects, and there isn’t really any good reason to stick to it.

  14. Let’s have no disparaging remarks about woobies (poncho liners).

    They will not be tolerated and the poster that says anything negative about a woobie will be hunted down and made to sleep with a military issue wool blanket for ever including being buried in one.

  15. “With the expansion capabilities of modern bullets, the 9mm round can now equal wound characteristics similar to the .45ACP…”

    Let’s follow that sentence up with

    “”With the expansion capabilities of modern bullets, the .45 round can now equal wound characteristics similar to the .75…”

  16. I hope the Army is watching the ShootingTheBull410 Ammo Quest for testing ideas. Of course, they have the budget that they can and will run their own much more thorough and extensive tests (they can even use anesthetized live pigs or goats if they want to). But due to their lack of experience with expanding handgun ammunition it would be a good idea for them to consult with experienced civilian experts and testers. The FBI would be a good place to call.

    Before anyone chimes in about how professional US military ammunition selection testing is, please spare me. I’ve heard too many horror stories from people actually involved in the process. Including superior equipment deliberately set up to fail by superiors who had already made up their mind and demanded a certain result. Here’s such a story told by a tester (part of a two-man team AK decades later than they should have, in the early 2000s). The frequent mistakes and terrible judgement calls (at least half the time) made by Army evaluators and the brass who make the final decision over the course of history should be proof in itself of US military conservatism, bias, reluctance to change anything, stupidity, and an absolute disregard for making sure our armed forces whose lives depend on having superior reliable weapons have the best weapons. Especially when the cost difference comes down to a relative drop in the bucket, the cost of one missile or plane. For that relatively insignificant amount of money, or to hand the contract to a preferred company, the decision makers prefer to give GIs unreliable weapons that cost American lives in combat.

  17. Smart soldiers usually eschew pistols for stuff that is a little more potent, and after seeing real gel blocks shot by pistol versus rifle rounds, I can see why. .45 acp is okay, but so is 9mm. 9mm might give you a bit more magazine capacity. Both are inadequate compared to rifle or shotgun rounds.

    • Pistols are by definition what you use when your “more potent” stuff is lost or rendered inoperable, so making comparisons there is kinda moot. No-one is going to use a pistol when they have a rifle; it’s when they don’t have a rifle that we want them to have a pistol that works as efficiently as possible.

  18. I dont see how you can even write that this will settle a caliber war… Its been said that the Army will rely on the FBIs research and the FBI already made it clear they are in favor of the 9. Mystery solved.
    I dont carry a 9 ever. and i never will. Why? Because this is America and America doesnt speak metric. Ill carry a .357 Magnum or a .357 Sig; but NEVER a 9MM Euro-trash 🙂

    Yes i reload i understand the actual bullet is .355 in the Sig and luger, but like i said… No metric here son.

    • Better ditch your inches too then, since the inch has been defined in terms of the meter since 1866 (definition adjusted in 1959, an inch is defined as being 25.4 millimeters.

      So you’re measuring in metric whether you know it or not.

      I don’t know if you are being serious or not, but in case you areL Honestly, the spacing of the hashmarks on the caliper of the designer of the round has to be the damned STUPIDEST criterion for judging a round that I have ever heard of.

    • The standard m16 round is the 5.56×45, the m14 uses the 7.62×51 (all metric measurements). Put a 556 in a 223 chambered firearm and you might be singing the blues in the ER.
      The use of 9mm as a pistol round makes sense because it’s one of (possibly) the most widely available rounds around the world. If you run out of your ammo then you are more likely to find it.

      • sad, the number of people who cling to their prejudices. the advantages to lighter armament and more ammunition carried are unrecognizable by the .4x crowd. the stats and tests and reports are all the same: a single round from any calibre of pistol is not sufficient to guarantee a one or two shot fight stop. the war will go on because most people lack ability to logically consider and modify cemented thinking, regardless of the evidence presented. even in 1945 there were highly thought-of physicists who claimed it was impossible to split the atom, the smallest particle known to man.

        • Your general point is quite valid, in fact it’s spot on.

          However, there’s a factual nit with your example (don’t worry, there are plenty of other examples of this sort of “thinking” out there): as of 1945, we knew about protons, neutrons, and electrons, all of which are constituents of atoms, and there was solid experimental evidence as early as Dember 1938 (via Lise Meitner, Otto Hahn, et. al.) that large atoms could be split. What wasn’t known (outside of the classified Manhattan Project) in early 1945 was whether this could be useful in an explosive, or for power generation.

          There were, of course, two public demonstrations of fission explosive technology later that year.

        • FWIW, while it wasn’t definitely known that it could be so used, it was assumed to be possible. And if you read sci-fi literature from the pre-WW2 period, some of it has uncannily accurate descriptions of the then-hypothetical nuclear weapons being used. For example, “Sinister Barrier” by Eric Frank Russell, written in 1939 and published in 1943, has a description of a massive, several-kiloton explosion that is initially confused for a nuke by the characters because of “a characteristic mushroom cloud” that rises high enough to be seen from many miles away (and then realize that this is not the case when radiation detectors show normal levels).

          Other books are less accurate in details, but still portray some accurate aspects; e.g. the notion of nuclear-tipped missiles capable of reaching another continent (though then assumed to be more like cruise missiles, and not ICBMs) was first used as a plot device in 1930s. The idea to use a nuke in a coastal city harbor to cause a massive tsunami also dates to that period.

          Of course, most authors got the actual physics details wrong when and if they delved into them. But the notion of uranium as a super-powerful explosive powered by a fission chain reaction (and with a fairly accurate assessment of their power) was definitely not obscure.

        • take a look a heinlein’s short story “things blow up”. he predicted hiroshima and nagasaki in 1935.

        • Er, do you mean “Blowups Happen”? It was from 1940, and what it predicted is a nuclear reactor used for power generation (though Heinlein grossly overestimated the difficulty of controlling the reaction, which is the main plot device in the story).

        • yes, you are right….”blowups happen”. what struck me is in the first page of the short story he references the atomic bombing targets well before the targets were actually selected. he also invented velcro and “the clapper” (which is used today, either as a “clapper” control, or a sound-activated sensor. not to mention the first ever description of phased array radar.

          cheers,

        • your hisytory is quite correct. however, too many learned scientific types clung to their predjudice and did not/would not entertain the possibility that something they could not conceive of was actually possible. point being that given all the evidence regarding the properties of atoms, the majority declined to speculate or investigate.

          was trying to demonstrate that ignoring an idea because of entrenched thinking infects not only luddite gun owners.

          thanx for your addition to the record !

  19. I smell a rat. We weren’t too happy when all those agencies bought up 42 billion rounds of ammo and our supply dried up and prices went through the roof.

    This could be a scam designed to do exactly the same thing, TIMES TEN!

    Besides, doesn’t anyone realize that pistols are a side issue? The real issue is the crappy M4 and popgun 5.56mm cartridge. No war was ever won by a pistol! Adopt the SCAR-H rifle and 7.62 NATO now!

  20. I’ve been out of the Marine Corps for nearly 15 years and I still use poncho liners as blankets. Yes, even in SC in the summer it is too damned cold with the wife in charge of the thermostat. The poncho liner is the best product our military has ever used.

  21. I’m puzzled, actually, by the thesis of the article above: I can’t see what including JHP and other ammo types in the XM-17 Modular Handgun proposals has to do with caliber. Obviously the use of JHP by almost all readers of this blog has done nothing to end “the caliber wars.” Why should it?

    Further, DoD and the U.S.Army have not decided to use JHP pistol ammo widely. They have merely decided that JHP “and other specialty ammo” could with advantage be included in M-17 proposals.

    I consider it a central joy of my shooting life that my equipment is not selected for me by military officials. Hunting cartridges have progressed far beyond our standard-issue pistol and rifle rounds. Indeed most of the really good loadings from Lapua, Norma, Speer, Black Hills, and Hornady …have started out as hunting or target rounds, only to be picked up by those military units empowered to buy novel weaponry for limited “special” use. What a world.

    • It’s not limited to weapons and ammo, either. If you look at modern combat boots, for example, it’s clear that they have borrowed a lot from advancements in hiking and mountain boots over the past few decades. And then there are materials such as Gore-Tex, which have also first found acclaim in the civilian market and then were enthusiastically adopted by the military.

      It’s not actually all that surprising. For one thing, militaries tend to be conservative, and letting the civilians test and iron out the quirks before adopting is a logical thing to do. For another, most of the standard-issue stuff has to be cheap, since it’s issued in the millions and gets worn out and replaced often; so bleeding edge tech, while it’s still expensive in the early adoption phase, simply doesn’t cut the budget.

  22. The Army has not said it is switching to hollow points. This is all premature speculation based off the requirement announced today.

    Richard Jackson, Special Assistant to the U.S. Army Judge Advocate General for Law of War said, “Expanding the XM-17 Modular Handgun competition to include special purpose ammunition will provide the Warfighter with a more accurate and lethal handgun,”

    “to include” does not mean “replace”.

    This is not a repudiation of 100 years of US adherence to the Hague treaties. We’ve been using hollow point for decades in specific warfighter’s weapons in targeted operations against identified terrorists. The majority to include SOF, are not utilizing these special purpose rounds in day to day operations.

    When or if we choose a new path expect a large scale official announcement similar to what we did when we said we’d adhere to the mine ban treaty (we aren’t signatories of that either). http://gruntsandco.com/making-us-troops-vulnerable-banning-ap-mines/ We aren’t going to announce to the world a change like this in a room full of pistol vendors.

    Finally, there is no guarantee the MHS will even be adopted. Recent history like the ICC competition that failed to identify an M4 replacement and today’s announcement that we are cutting an additional 40K Army troops (even after the Army CSA said we can’t do the job with less) should suggest some “tight” finances and stoke a little critical thought.

    The announcing of the potential use of hollow point simply is warning the vendors to ensure their submissions can feed a variety of ammo. Nothing has changed. US MP’s carry hollow points every day in garrison. JSOC and select SF teams will be chambering 9mm Hydroshock and M255 when they are going to nail a terrorist on our kill list.

  23. “9mm round can now equal wound characteristics similar to the .45ACP”
    Funniest thing I’ve read all day. Guy must do stand up at the FBI Academy…

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